Make your carbon wheels faster (with a simple upgrade)
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2024
- Mous: shorturl.at/cuN56
Aaron Dobbs: www.bs16bicyclesolutions.com.au
In this video expert mechanic upgrades my ICAN Aero 50 Chinese carbon wheels for $320 USD. The focusing will be on the bearings, which became a limiting factor after a few thousand KM of riding. Aaron will show you what's involved in removing and adding the bearings to wheels. I'll also share some speed data to demonstrate the bikes ability to acquire more speed with the better bearings. In this case it's the Winspace T1500.
#Carbon #wheels - Sport
Due to the nature of this project I.e. testing the upgraded wheels over many months...this piece was shot some time ago. In that time, unfortunately Trilogy Cycles have shut due to various industry reasons. So I wanted to personally thank Keith (shop owner) and Aaron Dobbs (Head Mechanic) for all the time they have given me to make content there over the years. While Keith has moved away from the industry, Aaron is now running his own show here: www.bs16bicyclesolutions.com.au meaning Aaron will continue to be involved in content on the channel moving forward. Cheers, Cam
Ok, so the skill and knowledge on display here is absolutely world class, IMHO. A shop with Aaron as a mechanic should never shut down
Did Aaron live in the UK at some point?
@@SimonHillblue yes
Small world. I worked with him for a short while in Bristol. Glad he's doing well.
i really enjoy the dual talk videos feel like i take something into the real world every time. cheers.
I could watch Aaron work all day!
damn... i could watch this craftsman all day long. wish i had a guy like this in my small town.
Ceramic bearings are designed to excel at applications doing 10000 rpm and way more. No bearing on a bike will get anywhere near that, not even your wheel hubs on a 100 km/h mountain downhill. So they‘re basically a waste of money and any proper steel bearing (NTN or such) will do as well. If you‘re looking for extra performance, you‘d need to take out the seals and remove the grease to replace it wirh oil. And pray that it never rains during any of your rides… 😂
I've never purposefully bought wheels with ceramic bearings but Zipp accidentally sent me wheels with them. 15,000 miles in all kinds of weather and they were still rolling great when I sold them. I also ride all winter in an area that uses a lot of salt on the roads.
@@veganpotterthevegan No one says they don't work well in general, I just doubt there are any significant advantages that justify the extra cost. My main road bike is on over 20k miles with a set of NTN SS bearings and they still feel like new and roll great. Those cost 20 bucks a piece, while the equivalent Ceramics are around 50 if I remember correctly. But that's up to everybody to decide for themselves.
Unless you choose to use Ceramics for your steerer, then you officially have too much money.
😜
@renegodde5483 the cost being justified will all be up to the buyer. I know I wouldn't buy them for wheels but I'll definitely buy them for bottom brackets. That said, a lot of cyclists die of old age with tons of money in the bank. They may as well spend it while they're alive🙃
@@veganpotterthevegan Like „the last shirt has no pockets“? You may be right about that…
You would also only use ceramic maybe on a velodrome, on most normal roads or off road would probably crack them and why people would use hybrid ceramic instead if want to go quick
Awesome Cam, you're having all the fun, leave some for the rest of us 😀👍
The take away, is that Aaron is a national treasure! Probably one of the top 100 mechanics worldwide. Chapeau!
As always, another great video from you. As you mention, it's a real shame the business has shut. Will be interested to see your follow up video in a year or so.
Holy crap it's Aron! G'day bruv! Looking well!
Hmmm you can see why a top end racer needs a knowledgeable and highly proficient mechanic, they are invaluable.
Thank Cam for a wonderfully informative video as always.
Great video Cam, well impressed by the knowledge of the mechanic, l bet he is swamped by customers wanting repairs, l would definitely use him 👍
Interesting video guys 👌🏼 this guy is a top class mechanic ❤
This really highlights the value of these ICANN wheels - identical performance to the Hypers at 1/2 $$$
I have put DT Swiss bearings in my ICAN wheels and they work great!
What a great team Aaron really can tune a bike to get the max from it what a shame that was a top class shop closing down we all wish Aaron good luck with opening his own shop.,Thanks Cam / RCA another valued video.
Channels promoting direct to consumer gear aren't helping....
Yes i understand but what can a small company do ?
@@veganpotterthevegan
@@daviddjerassi I'm mostly poking at this channel as being part of the problem. Promoting these bikes closes small businesses. Even if they're friendly with the owners.
I have a set of ICAN’s on my gravel bike. They’re strong and pretty smooth. It was a budget build for the most part and didn’t want to break the bank
Very informative Cam, thanks!
Excellent, well done. Thank you!
Beautiful work
That mechanic knows his stuff
I'd like to see more Bearing Press Tutorials, as in the future, when we're all on Electronic gears and Hydraulic Brakes, the only wear/service points on the bikes will be the bearings.
Especially the headset, as bikes now have a big hole in that area to allow cables in.
A lot of people still on mechanical rim brakes
Imagine the profit margin on those bearings. Manufacturing cost must be well below one dollar. No wonder your bike shop won't charge you anything to install them, I'm shure they give their retailer healthy margin. Would be nice to see a comparison with a high quality NTN or SKF bearing made in Japan.
Ceramic are junk. Potentially faster for 5-800km and then rapidly dropping off to much slower. But it'll take a while for them to be worse than the very worst super cheap Chinese ones.
A complete carbon wheelset like this costs around 200$ to produce. That's a small run.
Just put things in perspective, margins in the bike industry are ridiculous high whatever what manufacturers say lol
Honestly there's stuff all margin and I wish I was making profits on them like you are suggesting. As a service to our clients of someone wants to spend the money on these items then we don't always charge for installation out of good will. Believe it or not some shops do have a preference on community and customer loyalty still. Cheers Aaron
@@BS16Tech I'm not saying you are paying them $1 each, you are not getting them out of the door of the manufacture in Mexico (there is the brand who bump up, then the exporter who do is 2x and the distributor in your country in 2x the price as well). Your margin is probably closer to the discount amount you gave him in the video. If it's anywhere less than that, you should switch supplier.
@@LaurentiusTriariusmaybe, but what about hidden costs like development, machinery, quality control, distribution, marketing...
Once the ceramic bearing wears out after about 500km they’re worse than steel bearings with 10,000km on them.
I wish the ceramic bearings could have a ceramic race or a surface coating to match the hardness of the ceramic bearing to prevent the hardness of the ceramic wearing into the steel race.
yes. Unless you have a hardened race made for ceramic bearings, they can easily get scored or dented if you take a big pothole. For this reason Campagnolo and Fulcrums with loose bearings come with replaceable races. I've had a few bearings crack and score the race, but the replacement bearings cost me less than $20. I moved those races to the front, where I hope they will just wear smooth again. I think ceramic spins a bit faster, but it is more fragile and steel, once worn in with clean grease, is also very smooth.
@@bengt_axle hardened race only goes so far. Taking campag as an example their “Cronitect” coated bearings only reach Rockwell C of 58
Your ceramic bearings are closer to 75HRC
Its still going to wear into the race over time and subsequently add more friction as time goes on.
Also damage from potholes isn’t the main issue. By design you have a harder surface rolling over a softer surface, over time it cuts. That’s why we’re seeing performance drop off at about 500km of use on ceramic bearings.
(See image of test done by Hambini www.hambini.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/bearinglife-1024x669.png )
Easy mate! Man I love this guy
Thank you for the very intersting video
There is a lot lost in the conversation about hybrid-ceramic bearings. I've had really cheap ceramic bearings go quickly in a few hundred miles, and some of the best like the coated ones from SLF Motion and the Enduro XD15 last impossibly long with no maintenance at all. My XD15 BB has lasted as long in similar conditions as a bike that has solid oil bearings. Both well over 3x the life of any non-Chris King BB i have had, but without the maintenance that those require. Similarly, i have a set of jockey wheels that has lasted 30k miles from SLF run DRY per the recommendation from Blake at SLF.
For the sake of curiosity I have a set of the Kogel alloy jockey wheels ready to go on a bike and curious to see how they perform with mud, grit and jetwashing that that bike sees as well. I dont expect XD15 levels of performance here, but hoping to be surprised.
ICAN is advertising "Equipped with top-tier Japanese sealed EZO bearings" in the Aero line now. They are steel but supposed to be a very good bearing.
Nicely explained.
Wow, this guy is pro.
After watching and reading a number of reviews, I had settled on a set of Lun Grapids, which were often cited as the best chinese carbon wheels. However, they were going to be over $1300 AUD...not exactly "cheap". Then I came across Airwolf at $940 with the optional dt swiss hub, so I grabbed them instead (maybe it was my fondness for the 80s TV drama of the same name). Yet to receive them but keen to see how they compare to my 202s!
the brand elite has dt swiss options for 600, thats what i use on all my bikes and builds
@@JwallzMTBhave you heard superteam brand? is it good?
I find ceramic bearings die really fast. Literally 500kms and you can hear them grinding. Steel might not be as fast, but they feel just as nice, for a lot longer.
What do they say, 'steel is real!' I've had similar experiences although these bearings have been good for 7-8 months now. We'll see how they go longer term.
And...good quality steel bearings are a lot cheaper than ceramic. Maybe for a top amateur racer, ceramic has its place but for average weekend warrior steel is more cost effective. Labor is the key on changing bearings. Not everybody will be able to do this job comfortably at home. Replacement isn't cheap at the bike shop.
The tech in this video is very good.
Thanks Cam.
My Lun Hyper 2023 D45's have 4k miles on them with ceramic and spin as effortlessly as the first day they were ridden. That was impressive enough for me to order the 33's for a second build.
@@CamNicholls Check out Enduro XD15 ceramics. Lifetime warranty, but more importantly the only ceramic that lasts.
Not ceramic speed. Got thousands of k’s out of them.
Really interesting 👌
The only reason to put ceramic bearings on a bike are to make ceramic bearing companies money. Steel ones like genuine NTN will outlast the ceramic and after a very short time will be freer spinning. Ceramic bearings aren't designed to be in a shockloaded environment. The only bearings in a bike that aren't susceptible to shock loads are the jockey wheels and the benefits gained there are probably in the $2000/W range. In other words it's only a tiny fraction of a watt that you can save.
100 % correct
quick question , have you looked into the advantages of ceramic vs steel, i went to a bearing specialist and asked about ceramic bearings and was told that a cyclist will never get the bearing spinning fast enough to get any benefit from them , any feedback?
It's all marketing to sell a higher priced product without real benefit. Good bearings have tighter tolerance regardless of the material used. Ceramic bearings have higher heat tolerance with less expansion. No cyclist will benefit from that.
Your specialist is 100% correct.
Any engineer will confirm that. Any Miami dentist will explain that the price is justified if someone is willing to pay for it. Ceramic speed has built a brand on the stupidity of the middle class.
Thank You 🙏✌
I would have loved for this video to have come out about 3 months ago when I did the same thing on what appears to be the same hubs. I got there in the end up there was much swearing along the way. Especially when I realised I forgot to put the collar back in the free hub
Ceramic bearing are more performance & durability sensitive to fitting tolerances and degree of alignment in bearing seats, than steel ones.
IMO, you'd done better business by installing top-tier normalized steel sealed bearings, going to the opposite fashion: better managing misalignments and poor machining execution.
Time ago, I had to do so to stop looseness in a freehub bearing. By design, the manufacturer chose to compensate poor tolerances simply adding a preload nut in the rear hub; it ate bearing until I putted an industrial bearing wich seemed to stand higher axial loads... frequency between re-tightening increased noticeably, though.
Hey Cam, which groupset do you use and prefer?
What bearing press brand did you use?
This guy really knows what he is doing. My LBS is not that good with wheels...
most shops can't true a wheel. it's actually shocking. I wonder who these people are and whether they are qualified anywhere but at the shop they work at. I've been building the last 8 bikes i've worked on myself because i lost patience with shops finding excuses for being incompetent and useless.
Ceramic bearings are brilliant but the manufacturer matter. Rather than going for no name ceramic - go for high quality steel. I pack mine with much more grease that you normally would for the performance and probably lose 0.5W or so but they literally last forever and the hubs are much quieter too.
if those bearings are have double seals you can remove the inner seals especially if they have a thick grease. nothing will ever get between the two bearings like water or dirt. what causes more resistance in bearings more than the type or quality is grease and seals.
The bearings inside the freehub are a bonus and may not need to be replaced for more speed, right?
I have had sets of the ICAN and they have been bulletproof. But I think I will replace the bearings. 6803 front. What izes in rear? 6902 and ???
One of those cycling products that goes into the “people are delusional” category of cycling product, just between the ceramic headsets and over sized pulley wheels.
Could the drag have been just that shield thing that he took out.
Sweet!
Dude just for accuracy include humidity, altitude and temp for us geeks , I had originally misspelled altitude as attitude perhaps relevant aswell
The biggest difference in high end wheels and the Chinese wheels is mostly the hubs where they save money. They come with sealed bearings. I ran mine for a few weeks then I took the hubs apart and cleaned that cheap grease out and put good grease in. Night and day difference without putting new bearings in. The avg rider can't tell the difference but you have to be Handy.
What software are you running on your phone on the bars
hi, people are complaining about these wheels lateral flex, and problems with brake rubbing, do you have any opinions on this? thanks!!!
It seems logical to me that if you looked at several other brands, that for the cost of wheels and bearings... you could also have a higher end wheel set.
Steel bearings with metal cages spin just as freely as a ceramic bearing for a fraction of the price. The plastic cages in cheap steel bearings are what cause the majority of the drag. The grease used matters quite a bit too.
If I remember correctly most drag bearing gets from full contact seals, then grease, then bearing cage and lastly ball and race material. So steel bearing with metal race, lighter grease and non contact seals gives biggest bang for a buck.
@@edmundas919 right, but you need the seals and grease equally in steel and ceramic bearings. From what I understand there's no difference in performance between ceramic and steel with metal cages at the low RPMs used in cycling. So ceramic is pissing away money for nothing gained more than steel is the best bang for your buck.
This guy is good ,thanks!👍
hello , please , can you give me the name of the bearing press? thank you
Timely video as my front wheel on my Hollowgram 35 wheelset feels and sounds atrocious. I popped the seals off to get the code (macro mode on my phone doing the bulk of the work to read the code as Cannondale don't make life easy with exploded diagrams and bearings sizes, that would be too easy).
I've bought Endura replacements from a small manufacturing place nearby and just need to fit them but I've been stuck staring at Amazon bearing presses and pulling tools. The one in the video looks like the ~£50 blue version all over Amazon; is it? Also, recommendations on a puller would be welcome as it looks as if I can't punch them out.
you can probably create your own press with hardware store nuts and bolts. Oz cycle has for sure made reference to it. If you have a 3d printer then you can print all the adaptors, shims and what not that you can imagine. Pressing round things into other round things is rather basic once you have a threaded rod and a bunch of nuts & spacers. I havent bought dedicated tools in quite some time because i can make on demand tools with a 3d printer. with enough points of engagement, PLA is surprisingly sturdy as a material (if you know how to design & print parts).
@@pierrex3226 still hard to beat £5 expense for the LBS to press them in compared with 3D printing your own parts but still, pretty cool to 3D print stuff anyway (although integrated mounts like Raceware would be my instant project).
U should try the Avian CR3 R325..
$500 for a bearing set on a $670 wheelset is a non start for me. Rather just dump $1200-1500 on a proper set of DT-Swiss wheels and have something that lasts and will be consistently performant over its life span.
Interested to see how those kogel bearings hold up for you. I ran 2 of their bottom brackets one lasted 700 miles and one made it to 1100 miles, very disappointing life span.
wow. What did the company say about this?
haha, seriously? how come? where you riding underwater in the sea?
NTN steel for the win
Wheels are already balanced? That might make a bigger difference if not.
Hu,o have the ican aero 55 disc wheelset.
I think,there are novatec Hubs.
Ican told me:
The hubs are Novatec D411SB/D412SB.
The dimension of bearings.
Front:6803RU, Rear:15267
On your Video,you have other Dimension of bearings....
And what Dimension of bearing in the freehub?
Best wishes,jens
What the brand of that bearing press kit he's using?
Looks like the same one I bought from Amazon for about £40 - cheap Chinese brand under multiple names. Was surprised to see him using that quality tbh, fine for occasional home mechanics but not pro-shop quality (but still way superior to a bunch of old sockets, washers, bits of wood and threaded rod with nuts)
remove seals, remove grease and replace it with oil will make your bearing spin faster. But what's the point if you are not racing?
what you need is quality(NTN,SKF, etc) non contact seal bearing, no need for ceramic since they use non contact seals. this were hidden marketing is
never use the end caps , when pressing bearings you must only load the interference surface , this is the outer race section on a hub bearing , the end caps load the inner section .
Oh man, oh man, the hammer AGAIN ! HAMBINiiiiiii...!
I did the same to my elite wheels. Though i hate swapping wheel bearings out, the worst home mechanic job imho.
Just take the seals out of the bearings and use light oil. Your welcome. Ciao !
Hhhuuuge gains removing that rubber seal ! …. For the bike shop when you return in 3 months for bearing change
For a lot of us, $320 is a lot! What of you put that money into better wheels?
Review some 9velo’s.
"How to use a fancy bearing puller"
I'll stick to bog standard steel bearings
At bicycle RPM’s, there is no advantage to ceramic bearings. Manufacturing tolerances make bearings fast - not the materials.
i would prefer a bearing puller rather then a punch, just to be on the safe side. But nice video
As I said they are going in the bin and time is money.
If I was removing, servicing, and re installing I would 100% use my bearing puller. Cheers
@aarondobbs2714 my thinking on the subject is to preserve the cylinder.
Enduro bearings are pretty mediocre, SKF or NTN for top quality steel bearings but watch out for fakes. Ceramic will be nicer than steel for a short time until they wear a groove due to their hardness and get draggier (technical term)
oh no, that brit reamed hambini for hitting bearings out, you guys didnt see that one? hitting bearings out isnt the best practice.
As i said they went in the bin..... Speed / Labour cost analysis
@@BS16Tech you threw the hubs out? Seems like a waste. Just use a puller
Don’t understand why you need to change cassette body
People are still falling for ceramic bearings in bicycles?
I would imagine that ceramic bearings won’t last on tough terrains. All the vertical loads going through them…
How do you know its all the way in...
Feel it..
mmmmmmm
LOL
bizarre to me that they would cheap out on bearings
$140 for shipping?? Good call, Cam, this is more than a huge putoff... it may be scam-ish. Joe at Panda Podium tells us the Chinese government subsidizes shipping in certain instances. This company may not be paying anything at all for shipping and simply gouging buyers for money. I'd avoid.
Ceramic bearing is just a marketing hype. You just had worn bearings (agreed because of low quality). As long as putting new bearings ceramic vs steel doesn’t make a difference.
I have had Chinese rims for years and changed bearings many times with right tools. Ceramic and steel. Main problem with most Chinese rims are their hub alignment which causes bearings to wear out faster.
Did OZ cycling kill a dog?
Yes
@dainiusvysniauskas2049 What an asshole thing to do!
外国人の職人
Oh dear. more hybrid ceramic bearing rubbish. (No criticism about the workmanship though)
Cheers
they are not cheap,they are inexpensive!
Not worth the effort,pro's never use this only average people who think they are real racers, if u dont make a living racing why bother
Lets be real.. NOBODY uses their phone as GPS.. stop it..........
Cam really, why should the bike shop do this free of labour charge? What’s wrong with bike shops getting paid for their work? I really can’t understand that sentiment and putting it out there like that. Is killing local bike shops your intention? Seriously dude…
Of course not. I am big lbs supporter. I was just re-quoting Aaron who’s now opened his own shop. If the shop is making full margin from the bearings that makes sense to me. It’s not a huge job and you’re supporting the shop by buying through them.
Cam, seriously? Jus quoting? Don’t you think about what you are saying? You have a big audiance and you just told everyone’s that all bike shops (all over the world where price and wage structures are different) need to work for free and live off the product margins? Don’t you value anyone doing work for you? Info sorry I’m to negative about this because generally speaking I enjoy your content (but still waiting until you man up and win that A grade crit!), but this one I couldn’t let slide. Just quoting- that seems like a cheap excuse. I bike shop needs to pay rents, pay wages, taxes, pay for someone doing the accounts, someone needs to find the right bearings, order them, book them in, pay for the erp software, needs to chat with the guy when he brings and fetches the bike, give him coffee, give a discount, the list just goes on.
It really feels like you don’t know what you’re saying. Just repeating his statement and generalizing it and devalueing a persons work. I’d say you really need to think about that. I didn’t read any other comments, but I guess I’m not alone here. What does coffee cost at starbucks but you can’t pay the bike mechanic?
NTN non contact seals > junky overpriced ceramic scam.
Can the phrase "cheap Chinese" please stop being used? Other products made in other countries don't seem to get continually referenced in the same degrading way like say, " the overpriced Italian bike brand Pinarello".
Once people stop typing it into search and it becomes a non SEO term, then yes. We're running businesses here at the end of the day and SEO/data matters.
chine hidding advertising...all video...
no to China made or assembled wheels for me ever
This video title is very derogatory. It makes me very uncomfortable.
PIMP has multiple meanings, obviously this one is "make (something) more showy or impressive."
Don't watch it then
@@CamNicholls what is the word after that?
@@xphiliptranx who said I wanted to watch the video? How small your attentional span? Or are you literate at all?
@@xphiliptranx or you stop commenting. Be quiet
Threaded rod and same size washers you have a bearing Press. 👍👊💥💥💥
Que ruedas de muy mala calidad basura