Mick! Orchestra stage manager here. The oboe plays an A to tune the orchestra. The specific A that's referenced is the A above middle C. They play an A because all the string instruments have an open A string. Lots of pro orchestras will actually tune to A442 as tuning to A440 will put actual notes in common problem areas for "wolf tones" for the string instruments. A wolf tone is a sympathetic resonance in the instrument that produces a really crap sounding overtone.
I have a guitar I bought thirty years ago and I didn’t play it for about twenty years because it’s resonant frequency was a slightly sharp D above middle C which made it difficult to impossible to play in tune. I pulled it out a few years back and it had changed after sitting in the case for a couple decades. Now it’s fine without the howling wolf tones whenever I hit a D.
I love these shows when you tell us about things I thought I already know and it turns out there's a lot I didn't know. You guys will never know how much your show has helped me. I was at rock bottom and you got me back playing guitar again. That turned my life around. I owe you a debt I can never fully repay
Ah man that’s AWESOME Brian. Please never see it as a debt - we’re just sharing a bit of enthusiasm that hopefully helps people find a groove they lost. Totally stoked to hear we’re of some genuine use. Cheers!
@@ThatPedalShow If I could interject, its common knowledge even the most famous of music is not truly in tune in their own respects and regards. In my opinion its why 'autotune' has had such a negative impact on music, you got a perfectly tuned vocal over not so perfectly tuned instruments, it sounds like a cacophony cluster fook to a learned persons ear holes. Historically, I think this same effect played on the ears of early 19th Century Big Band and Classical lovers when they encountered Rock and Roll for the first time, perhaps? As scientific as you can get, perfection is an illusion, if you listen to blues, its auditorily subjective to my ears, but it sounds intentional to be out of tune in regards to the individual players style of play. Even David Gilmor admitted he couldn't play like Eddie Van Halen, and Eddies said the same thing about Gilmors style of play. I agree it all comes down to the individual player and how they deal with and incorporate their own sound to their unique tuning and feel,... Kinda like when the most famous of players like SRV said 'fookit!' and tuned down to Eb. If everything were perfect, life would suck harder than autotune music.
Good on you Brian. Giving fellow enthusiasts inspiration is what this community is best at. Well done you for grabbing it and making a difference for your own wellbeing. Rock on fella 👍
Loving the show so far guys! Just a quick inside from a guitarist/French horn player, the oboe IN THEORY is made to be in A=440, but it never is... The reeds can go as far as 40 cents out of tune with humidity, temperature, and luck of the draw. The orchestra really tunes to the oboe because if the reed decides to be sharp that day, the oboe player can't adjust, so everyone else does! 😂😂😂
If I don’t have a tuner handy, I always use the riff from Day Tripper to get in tune. It’s so ingrained in my head that I can get the low E in the right spot and go from there. The Beatles, keep an eye on them. They’re gonna be big.
I once heard an interview with a luthier (might have been Sadowsky, but I don't recall) who did a refret and setup on a vintage tele owned by Mike Stern. Everything was was set up "perfectly" but when Mike came to pick up the guitar he could not play it in tune. He had played the guitar on worn out frets for so long that he learned to compensate for tuning issues with pressure, microbends, etc. and had to re-acquaint himself with the guitar after the work was done.
I remember seeing a video about a producer complaining that guitars were out of tune. The guitarist was sitting upright to tune then laying back on a couch to play. The weight of the neck laying flat pulled the guitar sharp. Such a temprimental instrument. Like a wild horse or an Italian car. Mental, impractical but nothing could be more beautiful. Love the video chaps.
It such a relief to realise that perfect tuning is the impossible dream. I’ve spent weeks setting up guitars wondering why I can’t seem to get it quite right beating myself up about it.
Mick, the main reason a "dead" string won't intonate is that it goes "dead" (oxidised, dirty, worn, dented) unevenly throughout its length. Much like fret wear it depends on your playing habits. Uneven wear has the same effect as having uneven string gauge. That means that in your frequency, tension and mass equation, mass becomes a variable depending on where you fret the note.
Also, the ends of a string become less responsive as they age near the tension points (bridge & nut) effectively shortening the string length and affecting intonation over time
I'm pretty sure that Eric Johnson tunes his low strings slightly flat to compensate for the mass of the string bringing it up to pitch when struck with his mighty hand. And Bukovac recently said that "you're the only one who can tune your own guitars". I've always found there's that final tweak of the machine heads to match the instinctive sense of 'simpatico'. Great episode, thanks guys!
This whole episode was extremely interesting. Mick's comment at 1:03:34 that a big part of player's sound, what makes them sound like themselves, is how they deal with the guitar's innate intonation compromise is particularly huge. That really got me thinking, because everyone's ear is different as well as their musical tastes. His "theorem" at the end is a nice follow up to that. On why old strings are hard to tune. Supposedly old strings develop flat wear spots where they contact the frets and those flat spots affect the vibration of the strings making them difficult or impossible to tune. I can't remember where I saw that.
My father always tuned an acoustic by ear, one string at a time (no reference notes). When I played it or put it on a tuner, it sounded absolutely *awful*. When he played it, it was the sound of a harmonious choir of sirens singing. He always told me to “play it in tune” rather than worrying so much. 30+ years on, and I’m there and I get it now, Dad.
Who would of thought a video about tuning your guitar at over an hour long could be so informative and interesting? Probably one of your best vids for a long time 👏👏
Yes, yes , yes! I did much work in this area. You could make a guitar that was in perfect equal temperament with jagged frets. But the only interval truly in tune would be the octave. Most people wouldn't notice the 4ths and 5ths or 2nds, but the third and 6th is the farthest off.... You could make a guitar with jagged frets that was in a temperament that was perfectly Pythagorean, or Major as well; but they would only be in tune in one key. In other key intervals would be unacceptable even to an untrained ear. However, all things being imperfect-(think playing with fretless instrument, lipped instruments and singers in different humidities and temperatures)-the rule of 18 was easy for people to measure: What is the rule of 18 in guitar? The rule is sometimes called the "rule of 18". Basically, the position of the next fret, is the scale length, minus the displacement of the previous fret, divided by 18. It was close enough, and is still pretty close. Although the accepted number today is 17.817. That being said, a scale is a contrived idea. Tuning used to be done "melodically," (one note played and then the next-which to an ear and brain has a time or memory element.) whereas people now tune strings together, or "harmonically." The idea here is that pitch or tuning can be relative to the moment or pitch memory-not some prearranged eclectic pitch measurement outside the moment. (So instead of finding A440 or 441 or whatever before you play and fixing things to that, pitch tune can move with the notes of the moment-like how acapella singers retune to the current chord or a lone melodic line solo has no pitches to clash with (understanding their own timbre (overtones) and vibrato (self clashing). This is why the Well Tempered Clavier featured very contrapuntal arrangements-if notes with "rough" intervals don't sound at the same time there is minimal clashing in the moment. So tuning, temperament, and interval clash can have more to do with time and memory than any precise wavelength measurement. How could a note plucked today be out of tune with any note sung tomorrow? Then contemplate the extreme vibrato applied by violinists (or zitherists, players of viols) and singers what does that mean for tuning? Next in referring to my own work, "Tunings and Temperaments and the Implications for Fixed-Pitch Instruments," there are wonderful challenges for organ builders, luthiers and builders of pipes, flutes, pianos etc. Lots of stories involve the cutting down of Stradivarius necks, etc. In conclusion, training your ear, your vocal chords, your lips, and your fingers matter more than believing in only tuning to some electronic signal at some point before you start playing. Trust your melody to guide your harmony!!!!
It's all coming together. Have an experience day ticket for 24th of June. Coming over from Ireland. Accommodation is now booked, time of work confirmed and TPS band ticket in the bag now as well! Going to spend the week after touring the beautiful english countryside with my wife and daughter(who will be 10 months by then)! Getting super excited!
@@djt6546 It’s on Thursday 23rd of June and experience day the day after. Looking forward discussions about gear without the customary eye roll I usually get from my wife 😅
I've been playing for years and I knew that even with my intonated guitar, I still adjusted string tuning to my ear and not exactly what my tuner is saying. Now I know why. Thank you so much guys!
What a great show. I’m fighting an SG right now and struggling to figure out what’s a setup issue and what’s a “me” issue. I’m a fender style guy and the Gibson scale and style of frets is tough. On another note, micks point about guitar players sounding like themselves because of how they intonate is so true. There are some guys than I love that are what I would consider artistically loose, tuning wise. Julian lage, Blake mills, Jim campilongo and bill frisell come to mind.
This show was philosophically awesome and now I will look at my guitars very differently now. I had a 94 Fender Strat which was sadly stolen and no other Strat and Tele that I have purchased since compares to how I played on that guitar after more than 25 years of using it. I have never felt so excited as I am right now to restring my guitars. Nothing dry about this episode, this is one of your best!
Just want to give praise to your production team for doing such an amazing job over the years. Every show ive ever watched sounds phenomenal! Definitely helps that both Dan and Mick's playing is fantastic, but the people or person that is tasked with capturing the magic does an amazing job. Best guitar related channel out there.
I'm a believer that a major part of connecting with a guitar immediately or after a period of time is down to the pressure you have to apply to the strings and therefore the effect on tuning leading to your connection beyond the initial feeling you get from the visual impact the instrument has on you when you first see it. Example Dan's son looking at the jag for the first time. The more experienced you get the quicker you can judge if simple by having the strings of your gauge choice fitted there will be a change to your pressure required, therefore the tuning stability for you and the improvement of your connection with the instrument.
Thank you for doing this video! Ever since learning about just intonation, equal temperament, etc. on my pedal steel, I've struggled with thirds and learned that everything on a guitar is a compromise. Not enough people talk about this stuff. It's a never-ending journey lol. PS. Mick, absolutely loving the colour of that new strat 🤘
Great show. I've been playing guitar for 30 years and you've just explained to me a load of stuff I'd noticed while playing but never new why it was the way it was, e.g. D always sounding kind of out of tune. Much appreciated.
Brilliant. Fascinating. The pressure explains so many things - like when trying to play a song like someone else - like the person who wrote it - because their version sounds great because of the intonation they get when they fret/bend, and anyone else would have to understand that to be able to copy/replicate it. Like Pete Thorn playing EVH's stuff - he gets it, possibly without even knowing why he's able to do it - he just spent enough time doing it until it clicked for him. Brilliant.
Great video guys! I’m a guitar teacher and I only teach beginners to tune with a tuner until their ears get used to hearing stuff in tune BUT my classical teacher (had to study classical in music school but I grew up playing rock- was a great experience tho) showed me another great way to tune: tune everything to the high E like this: Tune the B to the E at 5th fret Tune the G to the G octave on 3rd fret high E Tune the 4th string E on the 2nd fret to the open high E Tune the open A string to the high E open (listen for oscillation) Tune the low E to the high E (listen for oscillation). It works well. Thanks
The last statement from Mick is so true. It’s that being on the edge that makes the music sound great. It’s like just like playing to a click track. You can sound life less. It’s about playing in time but, playing in the groove at the same time.
Hi Dan & Mick, Have a challenge ,Complete guitar rig by the decade 50's,60's,70's,80's,90's etc. Amp, Guitar, Pedals etc.Great show as always.Thank you also for the fantastic goodies from that Pedal show shop, First Class gear
Harmony, tuning. It's all down to the relationship between the different instruments. And that's the only thing that's important, really. Another Friday, another giant lump of knowledge from our favorite duo.
What you said about learning how to play a particular guitar in tune is very true. When you really know a instrument, you find that a you will instinctually adjust your playing to get it to sound right. I've had several instances where I'm playing a solo and it sounds good but its feeling strange under the fingers, I look down and realize that I'm a fret flat from where I mean to be and I'm using finger pressure and bends to get the notes into tune without thinking about it. Its cool and un-nerving when it happens. Great video!
I use a lot of open strings and tune the low E string by harmonic at the 12th fret. The rest are done by ear. Next, I tune the G string at the 9th fret to that. Then the high fretted t the 12th fret to the low E harmonic. Then I check the G string fretted at the 12th with the high E harmonic. I tune the A string harmonic to the G string fretted at the 9th to sound "sweet" (not an octave). This is the key to balancing. Then I tune the B string fretted at the 10th o the A string harmonic at the 12th fret. - which helps keep it from sounding sharp. This procedure balances to allow for good first position ("cowboy") chording and all along the lower octave of the neck. I believe the key is the A G and B strings balance. This can be checked by playing (0,12,0,9,10,0).
The inherent tuning imperfections of the guitar is what makes it such a great instrument for playing the blues. Aren't we always tweaking every single note we play, often putting the note in to tune as much as micro-bending to out of tune? The old blues player from days of yore constantly fought their instruments thus inventing the greatest thing since sliced bread, blues - jazz - rock and roll!
This is brilliant guys. So very well put over. The guitar tuning is alway a compromise, but your presentation of this is so clear and very valuable to fellow guitarists
The Oboe is used to tune the orchestra because it has a loud, clear and stable tone … it’s tradition. The oboe player uses a tuner to ensure they are playing the pitch the conductor/orchestra want to play at. 442 is the new normal. The Berlin Philharmonic has played at 445 for years, that’s why they have a ‘brilliant’, brighter sound.
I always intonate my guitars from open string to fretted octave (not harmonic). I look for the low E to fall ever so slightly flat when fretted at the 12th, and the B to fall 3-5 cents flat fretted at the 12th. From there I tune everything to open string, hit and let ring 2-3 seconds. Tune the low E so the transient rings true then falls falls flat a touch. Tune the B the same. Everything else true to pitch. Works for me. D chord sounds good, and E chord sounds good.
Some website I looked at said to find the E note on every string and tune that to pitch. This will result in equal temperament tuning. If you tune to octaves or unisons, you're fine. If you tune to perfect 4th and 5th, your tuning will be off because equal temperament tuning is supposed to result in 4th and 5th that are slightly flat of perfect. Professional piano tuners know how to "count the beats" to tune correctly. I.e., if you tune to pure 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths, you will not sound in tune. Once I began tuning everything to one E note, I found myself less annoyed with tuning issues. I could just play without the nagging feeling that something was "off".
I’m not even a quarter through this episode and I’m learning things I didn’t know and new ways to think about the guitar/octaves. Breaking it into division and fractions really helps my brain wrap itself around the idea and grasp it.
This is all super helpful info, and is making me rethink how I tune up! FWIW, my tuning tip is to just get a chorus pedal, leave it on all the time, and not worry about tuning or intonation 😀
@@ThatPedalShow All jokes aside this was a wonderful vid and I appreciate y'all covering something that, despite being the opposite of flashy and exciting, is so integral to what we do as players!
I grew up playing brass instruments, and all this talk of intonation really resonates with me - on a brass instrument intonation starts with your core, you had to learn what "in tune" sounded and felt like.
there are lots of situations where I've wanted to play a chord with the full triad but it was horribly out of tune, so I'll switch to just the power chord, always good enough for rock and roll :)
So useful. Just bought a les Paul copy after being used to strats for a while. Seems to be really sensitive to out of tune d chord, luthier setup said is within 1% and is ok but now have some insights.
Awesome, I just realized how important it is to NOT silent tune your guitar. Usually, I set up by boss tu3 to be silent while tuning, which is good for live situations of course, but in the studio, I wanna start listening to it pass through. I always set up my intonation and all that, but it's really when I tune while referencing chords that it really works for me. Chords and open, somewhere in between. Cheers
This has been a very valuable and upsetting episode. Upsetting because up until now I haven’t really been listening to how out of tune I am, upsetting because I’ve got so much work to do to resolve, and valuable because at least I now know I have a problem!
Good on you Grant. Mick here. We all have these moments from time to time and while a bit disappointing, it’s honestly the best thing that can happen. If I might offer you some advice…. Work on triads using the B, G and D strings. So play A major - imagine the full E-shape barre chord but only play the notes that fall on the B, G and D strings. Those notes would be E (B string), C# (G string) and A (D string). You now have two other A major shapes to find on the same strings. The notes are the same, they’re just in a different order, string wise. Once you’ve found the three shapes of A major on those three strings, now work on playing them in sequence and getting them as in tune as possible. Bonus time: You’ve also just learned three shapes of F#m. Repeat C, G, and E (same shapes just different frets) and you’ll be starting to intonate nicely when you really concentrate on making those chords sound sonorous!
This is one of those episodes that I'm riveted to and only this group gets why it's so interesting. My go-to song to check I'm in tune has always been Crazy Little Thing Called Love, now I know why I do it and why I always wince a bit until I've slightly retuned.
Nice video, and at 53:10 Mick cites one of the most important things about how to use a tuner. BUT you missed one important point: the two techniques to tune by ear starting from the low E, although being commonly taught, ALWAYS give bad results, because any tiny mistake gets multiplied string by string by getting to the high E. The best way to tune by ear, which is also essential to fine-tune or check the results after using a tuner, is to constantly cross-check natural harmonics and open string or fretted notes doing big string skips, for example playing the 5th fret natural harmonic on the low E and comparing it to the open high E string or the 5th fretted note of the B string or the 9th fretted note of the G string. Of course the guitar also has to be very well intonated to start with, and I highly suggest to set intonation at the 17th fret more than the 12th. This is because a tiny intonation error at the 12th fret gets multiplied at the frets above, being the distance between them lower, so at the 17th we can be more precise.
Sweetened tunings on my Peterson mini strobotune sort everything out. I setup intonation using precise value then tune to sweetened ( tuner does elec and acoustic versions). Job done. You can find the values of these sweetened tunings online but you need a tuner cabable of setting by cents
As a Great British Guitar Technician living and working in NYC for the last quarter of a century and touring the globe, the major problem with the majority of guitars is the nut. For some reason they are usually too high. Place a capo on the first fret and play some chords. Then check, or eyeball the distance the string is above the fret. Remove the capo and repeat the process. Most times the nut slots are cut higher than the frets (by a lot) and chords feel different and the action is different. Regarding tuning, try tuning the A string harmonic (12th fret) to A=440, or 432hz, or whatever the chosen start point is. Now go through and match all strings fretting with the note A. The A is on the D string 7th fret, G string 2nd and 14th fret, B string 10th fret, e string 5th fret and E string 5th fret. The tuner will show the E notes (the fifth) are a tad sharp. This is because equal temperament flattens all the fifths in The Cycle of Fifths to make the note B# equal to C and close the circle. This is also why all the 3rds are sharp and why as Mick demonstrated playing the 3rds flat is cool sounding to our ears it's coming from nature (The harmonic Overtone Series. This is because as players we are playing in both equal temperament and natural Pythagorean tuning at the same time. When I worked with Walter Becker (honk honk) he claimed the piano killed natural harmony because of the sharp 3rds ha ha!!!
I'd also suggest you check the tuner nut is tight. They can loosen overtime or with changes in humidity. DO NOT over tighten though. Just a light nip. Will help stability
Great show. Now I understand why I can never get perfectly in tune. It may well be one of your “drier shows” but in terms of practical usefulness it’s right up there with the semi-legendary VCPI show. 👍
Lubricating the nut is sooooooo important for tuning stability. I never realized it before buying a PRS SE 24 Custom. Brand new guitar and i couldnt figure out why my g string couldnt stay in tune, not only would it go flat immediately after fretting anything on that string, it would rise sharp after tuning it back up after fretting any fret. I gave it some thought i realized it was due to friction in the nut making the string catch in the slot. Tune it down, then the string slips and it goes flat, tune it up, then the string slips and it goes sharp, and after i lubricated the slot, problem solved. Even though tuning stability and the intonation problems of guitar might not be as exciting as new pedal, its so important and u guys did an amazing job as usual with your explanation of the topic. Love everything u guys do. Cheers mates!
Having played acoustic guitar for decades before seriously attempting electric guitar, I totally experienced the learning curve of relaxing my grip on electric guitars so that I play in tune. Conversely, it improved how I played acoustic guitars; especially during solos. Just relaxing my fretting hand tension a bit makes for a smoother groove and a bonus is an additional dynamic parameter for expression. Good stuff boys! Happy Friday!
i usually do most of the tuning by barring the second fret with open e, cept the 3rd fret on the b, usually a pass thru with 2 strings at a time, ea, ad, dg, gb, be, then reverse eb, ebg, ebgd, ebgda, ebgdba, some sanity check/temper it with adjustment on the ~6thfret where both areas sound as close
Congratulations for not cracking up when you were lubing your nuts or pressing hard on your jumbo frets. That said, I had to sell my tele with jumbo frets because it was impossible for me to play it in tune. The physics behind the difference in the Tempered scale and Natural scale is that for harmonics the frequency doubles and the relationship between notes/octaves is logarithmic. Which is slightly sharper than the Tempered scale. Technically the natural scale is correct. If you get really deep into this the Blue Note will make sense.
Great video. On the surface, it’s like ‘a video about tuners, really?’ But the content of this video is fundamentally important to the instrument and rarely discussed elsewhere. Thumbs up and I subscribed! Thank you!
When it comes to intonation, once having done the 12th fret adjustment I then check a fretted note in a common playing position, for example pressing the third fret on the low E string. It will be different to the 12th fret. I then find a compromise position between the third and the 12th fret. Then repeat this process with the other strings. The 12th Fret intonation procedure is good but we don’t always play at the 12th fret. I love your shows. Greeting from Sydney. Chris.
YYou guys were not in my feed so I looked you up. Dan's beard got quite grey. Then again I grew mine in and so is mine. Good to see you fellas. I missed you.
There is a great book called How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (And Why You Should Care) by Ross W Duffin which covers the reasons behind some of what Dan talks about at the start of this. There's a fair bit of maths in it, it's heavily biased towards classical music and it helps if you can read a bit of music notation, but if you can get past that, it's fascinating. One point worth noting is that it's not just guitars where everything is a compromise, it's pretty much all instruments. I used to think fretless instruments such as violins were immune to the problems caused (assuming they played with good intonation), but they can run into problems with open strings. Another freaky thing is the way piano tuners stretch the octaves at the top and bottom of the piano to compensate for string inharmonicity.
Having been through several tuners I'm a happy user of the same Peterson pedal you use. After this brilliant episode I know why I'm sometimes still out of tune. Thank you so much, great stuff!
This reminds me of the old bluegrass guys like Doc Watson and Tony Rice and such. They always tune to the key they're playing in because of all the reasons you stated. At least that way when everyone lands on the G, or what ever key, it's in tune. I tend to tune to open strings and sweeten the B string somewhere between a first position A and G chord. Seems to work for me.
This has been incredibly useful! Can’t believe I’ve been playing guitar for so long without appreciation for the vagaries and foibles of the open chord tunings.
Older the strings have warping of the metal due to bends causing depressions in the string. That causes the vibrations to be flawed..Just run your finger under the string...This occurs almost immediately if you bend excessively.
Apologies for late comment. Have been in Canada. This episode was, yet again, an amazing public service. Just understanding this stuff, including the overall idea that it can be a compromise, would save a lot of real frustration amongst beginners especially. I started in 1975 with the best available aid, which was an E tuning fork. Whack it on my knee and touch the ball end on the saddle, which amplifies the tone. Tune harmonically from there. These days, a brilliant tech is minutes away and he coaches me through all the nuances, covering so much of the same material as in this episode. Just knowing "it will be all right" is yet another reason picking up a guitar will be a good experience. It just makes a person want to play. And removes an impediment to joy. Thanks again, you two. It really helps. p.s. "Getting used to it" sort of reminds me of getting to know one's studio monitors. Both seem to fit into the realm of "touch".
@@ThatPedalShow And mine, eh! Canadians my just be the nicest people on earth. My grandfather and one brother were the only of the siblings who came to California. The rest of the family remained in Canada! 🍁 Cheers for all the love you and Dan share. It means a lot.
at record yourself as you playing I have addiction of adding chorus on every rythm guitar track I record. The effect is that my guitar is never in tune in the most romantic way possible cheers guys, wish you best and stay in best health
In a live setting, when I’m really invested in what I’m playing, I often play VERY heavily handed. Cut to 20+ years later, and medium frets and heavy gauge strings are what I’ve settled on. If I play tuned to E, with anything lighter than 12’s on my LP or 11’s on my strat, it will always be a dissonant, discordant mess. Back in my gigging days, I even moved to baritone strings in Eb tuning. I tried a “true temperament” fretted neck. It didn’t negate my ham hands lol.
I feel you. For my real gigging years, plenty of 11s on a Strat with high action. Stepped down to 10s and for decades really worked on softening that right hand but I still can’t play a Les Paul strung with 9s without sounding like a slurry mess. It’s ALL so personal which is why it’s an endless and endlessly worthwhile road to keep working on the machine, bit by bit
Drinking in that much wisdom was a privilege! I use Peterson, TC Polytune, & SNARK. Learned them all like you said. Thank you gentlemen! It's a joy to find an hour and a quarter of the Tone of Truth. I will always Tune in!
Excellent video... I am always aware of the 'situational' tuning I find myself in, exactly because of all the combinations you mentioned here factored in, make up how you sound. I was lucky enough to get a small amount of tutoring at University from the great Sorod master Ustad Amjad Ali Khan, who blew my mind with tunings and showed us about the notes between the semitones and how important they are.
I am an exceedingly average guitarist and over the last 30 years this has been the fight. Was fantastic to watch and be reassured that it’s not just me! It is probably the reason that all my guitars are the same scale length and bridge type and those periods where the tuning is ‘right’ are magical. My son has just started to play and it is painful to hear chords played ‘correctly’ without all those little pressure tweaks, string skips, mutes etc that you learn over the years to make it all sound good. He saved up and bought himself an electric guitar - 3/4 size and came with 10s - he just couldn’t play it in tune and it truly hurt to see how upset he was. 12s on now and all is good but I felt bad that I didn’t see it coming as I had just automatically played lightly while setting it up. Thanks for all the great shows, I am off to go and fight with my newest guitar and come to an agreement on what we both think is in tune.
Great video. In vs out of tune is a complex issue as an individual player can play both tempered & untempered or natural harmonic notes *in tune* to their relative systems on the same instrument w/ the same set up in the same song w/ out changing key. The "flat" bends cited in the video can be an example. Major 3rds or 7ths in a chord be played as fretted tempered notes, then played as untempered (flatter) bent notes in a melody or in single or double bends in double stops or triads. This often happens unconsciously. Of course notes can be clearly not in tune w/ anything & then return to the chosen key (usually tempered).
Absolutely fascinating gents. I watched an episode of tone talk where John Suhr (and someone else, sorry I can't remember who) were guests, John Suhr said that he sets intonation at the 1st and 13th frets not open and 12th as it takes away the inconsistencies of a badly cut nut. I also watched Joe Bonemassa talk about tuning, said he didn't wander from A440, said the guitar is an inprocise instrument, we've all been listening and that for decades don't worry about it
Great show. I also remember when starting guitar in the early to mid 1980's gigging with a guitar player that owned an expensive Peterson strobe tuner and being very impressed by it. Now some 30-35 years later I am so fortunate to own several of the Peterson stomp type tuners. For some reason just easier for me to interpret over led tuners even if I'm purposefully trying to tune a string a bit sharp or flat. I have also, over the years, learned to hone down my guitar collection to just a few, very well made and set-up guitars that I can get all the tones I will ever need for my enjoyment.
Mick! Orchestra stage manager here. The oboe plays an A to tune the orchestra. The specific A that's referenced is the A above middle C. They play an A because all the string instruments have an open A string.
Lots of pro orchestras will actually tune to A442 as tuning to A440 will put actual notes in common problem areas for "wolf tones" for the string instruments. A wolf tone is a sympathetic resonance in the instrument that produces a really crap sounding overtone.
Wonderful, thank you Del! I have learned something!
Great info
I have a guitar I bought thirty years ago and I didn’t play it for about twenty years because it’s resonant frequency was a slightly sharp D above middle C which made it difficult to impossible to play in tune. I pulled it out a few years back and it had changed after sitting in the case for a couple decades. Now it’s fine without the howling wolf tones whenever I hit a D.
Interesting, thanx!
Thanks for sharing that, it’s fascinating
I love these shows when you tell us about things I thought I already know and it turns out there's a lot I didn't know. You guys will never know how much your show has helped me. I was at rock bottom and you got me back playing guitar again. That turned my life around. I owe you a debt I can never fully repay
Ah man that’s AWESOME Brian. Please never see it as a debt - we’re just sharing a bit of enthusiasm that hopefully helps people find a groove they lost. Totally stoked to hear we’re of some genuine use. Cheers!
@@ThatPedalShow If I could interject, its common knowledge even the most famous of music is not truly in tune in their own respects and regards. In my opinion its why 'autotune' has had such a negative impact on music, you got a perfectly tuned vocal over not so perfectly tuned instruments, it sounds like a cacophony cluster fook to a learned persons ear holes. Historically, I think this same effect played on the ears of early 19th Century Big Band and Classical lovers when they encountered Rock and Roll for the first time, perhaps? As scientific as you can get, perfection is an illusion, if you listen to blues, its auditorily subjective to my ears, but it sounds intentional to be out of tune in regards to the individual players style of play. Even David Gilmor admitted he couldn't play like Eddie Van Halen, and Eddies said the same thing about Gilmors style of play. I agree it all comes down to the individual player and how they deal with and incorporate their own sound to their unique tuning and feel,... Kinda like when the most famous of players like SRV said 'fookit!' and tuned down to Eb. If everything were perfect, life would suck harder than autotune music.
Good on you Brian. Giving fellow enthusiasts inspiration is what this community is best at. Well done you for grabbing it and making a difference for your own wellbeing. Rock on fella 👍
@@bulletsforteeth5029 yes yes, and yes,,,,and as the guitars off, I recall the piano seven worse..., and ha ha, wait a moment, how about a Harp!
@@bulletsforteeth5029
Where did Gimour say he couldn’t play EVH, or EVH say he couldn’t play like Gilmour? I’d love to read or hear that interview.
Loving the show so far guys! Just a quick inside from a guitarist/French horn player, the oboe IN THEORY is made to be in A=440, but it never is... The reeds can go as far as 40 cents out of tune with humidity, temperature, and luck of the draw. The orchestra really tunes to the oboe because if the reed decides to be sharp that day, the oboe player can't adjust, so everyone else does! 😂😂😂
🤯
Ah, cool. Didn't know that. Thanks. 👍
Oh wow. 6 years playing in an orchestra and I never knew.
This usually works except when mallets are involved, then idk how to adjust
@@miniwy01wyatt70it’s kind of like the b string in guitar. Either you learn to love the rub, or it’s perpetual annoyance
If I don’t have a tuner handy, I always use the riff from Day Tripper to get in tune. It’s so ingrained in my head that I can get the low E in the right spot and go from there. The Beatles, keep an eye on them. They’re gonna be big.
I asked my wife about "Beatles", she said they're "bubblegum". I'm sticking with bands that can really play, like them Monkees.
I always used to do the same with the first note from REM’s “The One I Love.” Back when it was burned in my brain.
Who?
I once heard an interview with a luthier (might have been Sadowsky, but I don't recall) who did a refret and setup on a vintage tele owned by Mike Stern. Everything was was set up "perfectly" but when Mike came to pick up the guitar he could not play it in tune. He had played the guitar on worn out frets for so long that he learned to compensate for tuning issues with pressure, microbends, etc. and had to re-acquaint himself with the guitar after the work was done.
I remember seeing a video about a producer complaining that guitars were out of tune. The guitarist was sitting upright to tune then laying back on a couch to play. The weight of the neck laying flat pulled the guitar sharp. Such a temprimental instrument. Like a wild horse or an Italian car. Mental, impractical but nothing could be more beautiful. Love the video chaps.
What a wonderful analogy. And as a veteran of making probably thousands of videos featuring guitar players, I really feel the dood’s pain.
Great video guys! ❤️
TPS x Ola - YESSSS
Do a Will It Chug with Dan and Mick. I suspect it will not...
It such a relief to realise that perfect tuning is the impossible dream.
I’ve spent weeks setting up guitars wondering why I can’t seem to get it quite right beating myself up about it.
Mick, the main reason a "dead" string won't intonate is that it goes "dead" (oxidised, dirty, worn, dented) unevenly throughout its length. Much like fret wear it depends on your playing habits. Uneven wear has the same effect as having uneven string gauge. That means that in your frequency, tension and mass equation, mass becomes a variable depending on where you fret the note.
I bet the high e is the one I notice this the most/earlier is because it proportionally has the least mass. So a bit of wear will affect it sooner.
Thanks for this, I have been perplexed as to how old strings won't intonate. Interesting stuff :)
Also, the ends of a string become less responsive as they age near the tension points (bridge & nut) effectively shortening the string length and affecting intonation over time
Only that pedal show can keep my attention for over an hour on tuners and tuning! Lots of stuff I had no clue about! Awesome job!
Been playing for decades, this answered questions I never even knew I had. Marvelous work gents!
I'm pretty sure that Eric Johnson tunes his low strings slightly flat to compensate for the mass of the string bringing it up to pitch when struck with his mighty hand. And Bukovac recently said that "you're the only one who can tune your own guitars". I've always found there's that final tweak of the machine heads to match the instinctive sense of 'simpatico'. Great episode, thanks guys!
I like the Peterson strobe tuning things,- they very precisely tell me just how out of tune I actually am.
This whole episode was extremely interesting. Mick's comment at 1:03:34 that a big part of player's sound, what makes them sound like themselves, is how they deal with the guitar's innate intonation compromise is particularly huge. That really got me thinking, because everyone's ear is different as well as their musical tastes. His "theorem" at the end is a nice follow up to that.
On why old strings are hard to tune. Supposedly old strings develop flat wear spots where they contact the frets and those flat spots affect the vibration of the strings making them difficult or impossible to tune. I can't remember where I saw that.
My father always tuned an acoustic by ear, one string at a time (no reference notes). When I played it or put it on a tuner, it sounded absolutely *awful*. When he played it, it was the sound of a harmonious choir of sirens singing. He always told me to “play it in tune” rather than worrying so much. 30+ years on, and I’m there and I get it now, Dad.
Who would of thought a video about tuning your guitar at over an hour long could be so informative and interesting? Probably one of your best vids for a long time 👏👏
Thank you Ian!
Yes, yes , yes! I did much work in this area. You could make a guitar that was in perfect equal temperament with jagged frets. But the only interval truly in tune would be the octave. Most people wouldn't notice the 4ths and 5ths or 2nds, but the third and 6th is the farthest off.... You could make a guitar with jagged frets that was in a temperament that was perfectly Pythagorean, or Major as well; but they would only be in tune in one key. In other key intervals would be unacceptable even to an untrained ear.
However, all things being imperfect-(think playing with fretless instrument, lipped instruments and singers in different humidities and temperatures)-the rule of 18 was easy for people to measure: What is the rule of 18 in guitar?
The rule is sometimes called the "rule of 18". Basically, the position of the next fret, is the scale length, minus the displacement of the previous fret, divided by 18. It was close enough, and is still pretty close. Although the accepted number today is 17.817.
That being said, a scale is a contrived idea. Tuning used to be done "melodically," (one note played and then the next-which to an ear and brain has a time or memory element.) whereas people now tune strings together, or "harmonically."
The idea here is that pitch or tuning can be relative to the moment or pitch memory-not some prearranged eclectic pitch measurement outside the moment. (So instead of finding A440 or 441 or whatever before you play and fixing things to that, pitch tune can move with the notes of the moment-like how acapella singers retune to the current chord or a lone melodic line solo has no pitches to clash with (understanding their own timbre (overtones) and vibrato (self clashing). This is why the Well Tempered Clavier featured very contrapuntal arrangements-if notes with "rough" intervals don't sound at the same time there is minimal clashing in the moment. So tuning, temperament, and interval clash can have more to do with time and memory than any precise wavelength measurement. How could a note plucked today be out of tune with any note sung tomorrow? Then contemplate the extreme vibrato applied by violinists (or zitherists, players of viols) and singers what does that mean for tuning?
Next in referring to my own work, "Tunings and Temperaments and the Implications for Fixed-Pitch Instruments," there are wonderful challenges for organ builders, luthiers and builders of pipes, flutes, pianos etc. Lots of stories involve the cutting down of Stradivarius necks, etc.
In conclusion, training your ear, your vocal chords, your lips, and your fingers matter more than believing in only tuning to some electronic signal at some point before you start playing. Trust your melody to guide your harmony!!!!
It's all coming together. Have an experience day ticket for 24th of June. Coming over from Ireland. Accommodation is now booked, time of work confirmed and TPS band ticket in the bag now as well! Going to spend the week after touring the beautiful english countryside with my wife and daughter(who will be 10 months by then)! Getting super excited!
Yeah man! Really looking forward to meeting you Steve!
Champion itinerary! I’m one of the lucky few at the meeting & greet before Sundays concert. Which concert are you going to Steve?
@@djt6546 It’s on Thursday 23rd of June and experience day the day after. Looking forward discussions about gear without the customary eye roll I usually get from my wife 😅
@@stevewallek990 That’s perfect for taking fresh ideas and questions from the show into the Experience day. Have a blast Steve!
I've been playing for years and I knew that even with my intonated guitar, I still adjusted string tuning to my ear and not exactly what my tuner is saying. Now I know why. Thank you so much guys!
What a great show. I’m fighting an SG right now and struggling to figure out what’s a setup issue and what’s a “me” issue. I’m a fender style guy and the Gibson scale and style of frets is tough.
On another note, micks point about guitar players sounding like themselves because of how they intonate is so true. There are some guys than I love that are what I would consider artistically loose, tuning wise. Julian lage, Blake mills, Jim campilongo and bill frisell come to mind.
This show was philosophically awesome and now I will look at my guitars very differently now. I had a 94 Fender Strat which was sadly stolen and no other Strat and Tele that I have purchased since compares to how I played on that guitar after more than 25 years of using it. I have never felt so excited as I am right now to restring my guitars. Nothing dry about this episode, this is one of your best!
Just want to give praise to your production team for doing such an amazing job over the years. Every show ive ever watched sounds phenomenal! Definitely helps that both Dan and Mick's playing is fantastic, but the people or person that is tasked with capturing the magic does an amazing job. Best guitar related channel out there.
I'm a believer that a major part of connecting with a guitar immediately or after a period of time is down to the pressure you have to apply to the strings and therefore the effect on tuning leading to your connection beyond the initial feeling you get from the visual impact the instrument has on you when you first see it. Example Dan's son looking at the jag for the first time. The more experienced you get the quicker you can judge if simple by having the strings of your gauge choice fitted there will be a change to your pressure required, therefore the tuning stability for you and the improvement of your connection with the instrument.
Thanks for covering my band in the opening guys! Sounded just like us 😉
Thank you for doing this video! Ever since learning about just intonation, equal temperament, etc. on my pedal steel, I've struggled with thirds and learned that everything on a guitar is a compromise. Not enough people talk about this stuff. It's a never-ending journey lol.
PS. Mick, absolutely loving the colour of that new strat 🤘
what a truly amazing episode! not at all boring! jam packed with interesting ideas, thanks so much for doing this!
Great show. I've been playing guitar for 30 years and you've just explained to me a load of stuff I'd noticed while playing but never new why it was the way it was, e.g. D always sounding kind of out of tune. Much appreciated.
Brilliant. Fascinating. The pressure explains so many things - like when trying to play a song like someone else - like the person who wrote it - because their version sounds great because of the intonation they get when they fret/bend, and anyone else would have to understand that to be able to copy/replicate it. Like Pete Thorn playing EVH's stuff - he gets it, possibly without even knowing why he's able to do it - he just spent enough time doing it until it clicked for him. Brilliant.
This is the only show that I willingly watch more than an hour of tuner discussion. Thank you for the content gentleman! Amazing as always.
Thank you Lincoln!
Great video guys! I’m a guitar teacher and I only teach beginners to tune with a tuner until their ears get used to hearing stuff in tune BUT my classical teacher (had to study classical in music school but I grew up playing rock- was a great experience tho) showed me another great way to tune: tune everything to the high E like this:
Tune the B to the E at 5th fret
Tune the G to the G octave on 3rd fret high E
Tune the 4th string E on the 2nd fret to the open high E
Tune the open A string to the high E open (listen for oscillation)
Tune the low E to the high E (listen for oscillation).
It works well.
Thanks
The last statement from Mick is so true. It’s that being on the edge that makes the music sound great. It’s like just like playing to a click track. You can sound life less. It’s about playing in time but, playing in the groove at the same time.
Hi Dan & Mick, Have a challenge ,Complete guitar rig by the decade 50's,60's,70's,80's,90's etc. Amp, Guitar, Pedals etc.Great show as always.Thank you also for the fantastic goodies from that Pedal show shop, First Class gear
Harmony, tuning. It's all down to the relationship between the different instruments. And that's the only thing that's important, really. Another Friday, another giant lump of knowledge from our favorite duo.
What you said about learning how to play a particular guitar in tune is very true. When you really know a instrument, you find that a you will instinctually adjust your playing to get it to sound right. I've had several instances where I'm playing a solo and it sounds good but its feeling strange under the fingers, I look down and realize that I'm a fret flat from where I mean to be and I'm using finger pressure and bends to get the notes into tune without thinking about it. Its cool and un-nerving when it happens. Great video!
EVERY guitar/bass player should watch this video.
These shows relax me please do more
I use a lot of open strings and tune the low E string by harmonic at the 12th fret. The rest are done by ear. Next, I tune the G string at the 9th fret to that. Then the high fretted t the 12th fret to the low E harmonic. Then I check the G string fretted at the 12th with the high E harmonic. I tune the A string harmonic to the G string fretted at the 9th to sound "sweet" (not an octave). This is the key to balancing. Then I tune the B string fretted at the 10th o the A string harmonic at the 12th fret. - which helps keep it from sounding sharp. This procedure balances to allow for good first position ("cowboy") chording and all along the lower octave of the neck. I believe the key is the A G and B strings balance. This can be checked by playing (0,12,0,9,10,0).
You two have made what could have been mundane, interesting.
Thanks. Sometimes to opposite is true 🤗
The inherent tuning imperfections of the guitar is what makes it such a great instrument for playing the blues. Aren't we always tweaking every single note we play, often putting the note in to tune as much as micro-bending to out of tune?
The old blues player from days of yore constantly fought their instruments thus inventing the greatest thing since sliced bread, blues - jazz - rock and roll!
Totally. We talk a bit about that.
There's only one more thing thats better than this Show and that's Playing my Guitars.
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This is brilliant guys. So very well put over. The guitar tuning is alway a compromise, but your presentation of this is so clear and very valuable to fellow guitarists
Fascinating episode, thanks fellas!
The Oboe is used to tune the orchestra because it has a loud, clear and stable tone … it’s tradition. The oboe player uses a tuner to ensure they are playing the pitch the conductor/orchestra want to play at. 442 is the new normal. The Berlin Philharmonic has played at 445 for years, that’s why they have a ‘brilliant’, brighter sound.
I always intonate my guitars from open string to fretted octave (not harmonic). I look for the low E to fall ever so slightly flat when fretted at the 12th, and the B to fall 3-5 cents flat fretted at the 12th.
From there I tune everything to open string, hit and let ring 2-3 seconds. Tune the low E so the transient rings true then falls falls flat a touch. Tune the B the same. Everything else true to pitch. Works for me. D chord sounds good, and E chord sounds good.
Great video from a great team...thanks, lads!
😎🤙
Some website I looked at said to find the E note on every string and tune that to pitch. This will result in equal temperament tuning. If you tune to octaves or unisons, you're fine. If you tune to perfect 4th and 5th, your tuning will be off because equal temperament tuning is supposed to result in 4th and 5th that are slightly flat of perfect. Professional piano tuners know how to "count the beats" to tune correctly. I.e., if you tune to pure 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths, you will not sound in tune.
Once I began tuning everything to one E note, I found myself less annoyed with tuning issues. I could just play without the nagging feeling that something was "off".
"Let's see what we can do about that!" Perfect!
This has to be the most practical video lesson you guys have done. Excellent !!!!!!
"It's all about the player" Glad I hung around for that light bulb moment. Thanks!
Not dry or boring at all, :D epically fascinating B1 & B2, keep up the great work!!!
I’m not even a quarter through this episode and I’m learning things I didn’t know and new ways to think about the guitar/octaves. Breaking it into division and fractions really helps my brain wrap itself around the idea and grasp it.
This is all super helpful info, and is making me rethink how I tune up!
FWIW, my tuning tip is to just get a chorus pedal, leave it on all the time, and not worry about tuning or intonation 😀
Hahahahha!
@@ThatPedalShow All jokes aside this was a wonderful vid and I appreciate y'all covering something that, despite being the opposite of flashy and exciting, is so integral to what we do as players!
Cheers Jack, glad you enjoyed it!
I grew up playing brass instruments, and all this talk of intonation really resonates with me - on a brass instrument intonation starts with your core, you had to learn what "in tune" sounded and felt like.
The imperfections of an artists work are what identifies by revealing humanity.
there are lots of situations where I've wanted to play a chord with the full triad but it was horribly out of tune, so I'll switch to just the power chord, always good enough for rock and roll :)
So useful. Just bought a les Paul copy after being used to strats for a while. Seems to be really sensitive to out of tune d chord, luthier setup said is within 1% and is ok but now have some insights.
Awesome, I just realized how important it is to NOT silent tune your guitar.
Usually, I set up by boss tu3 to be silent while tuning, which is good for live situations of course, but in the studio, I wanna start listening to it pass through.
I always set up my intonation and all that, but it's really when I tune while referencing chords that it really works for me. Chords and open, somewhere in between.
Cheers
This has been a very valuable and upsetting episode. Upsetting because up until now I haven’t really been listening to how out of tune I am, upsetting because I’ve got so much work to do to resolve, and valuable because at least I now know I have a problem!
Good on you Grant. Mick here. We all have these moments from time to time and while a bit disappointing, it’s honestly the best thing that can happen. If I might offer you some advice….
Work on triads using the B, G and D strings. So play A major - imagine the full E-shape barre chord but only play the notes that fall on the B, G and D strings. Those notes would be E (B string), C# (G string) and A (D string).
You now have two other A major shapes to find on the same strings. The notes are the same, they’re just in a different order, string wise.
Once you’ve found the three shapes of A major on those three strings, now work on playing them in sequence and getting them as in tune as possible.
Bonus time: You’ve also just learned three shapes of F#m. Repeat C, G, and E (same shapes just different frets) and you’ll be starting to intonate nicely when you really concentrate on making those chords sound sonorous!
This is one of those episodes that I'm riveted to and only this group gets why it's so interesting. My go-to song to check I'm in tune has always been Crazy Little Thing Called Love, now I know why I do it and why I always wince a bit until I've slightly retuned.
Nice video, and at 53:10 Mick cites one of the most important things about how to use a tuner. BUT you missed one important point: the two techniques to tune by ear starting from the low E, although being commonly taught, ALWAYS give bad results, because any tiny mistake gets multiplied string by string by getting to the high E. The best way to tune by ear, which is also essential to fine-tune or check the results after using a tuner, is to constantly cross-check natural harmonics and open string or fretted notes doing big string skips, for example playing the 5th fret natural harmonic on the low E and comparing it to the open high E string or the 5th fretted note of the B string or the 9th fretted note of the G string. Of course the guitar also has to be very well intonated to start with, and I highly suggest to set intonation at the 17th fret more than the 12th. This is because a tiny intonation error at the 12th fret gets multiplied at the frets above, being the distance between them lower, so at the 17th we can be more precise.
Sweetened tunings on my Peterson mini strobotune sort everything out. I setup intonation using precise value then tune to sweetened ( tuner does elec and acoustic versions). Job done.
You can find the values of these sweetened tunings online but you need a tuner cabable of setting by cents
As a Great British Guitar Technician living and working in NYC for the last quarter of a century and touring the globe, the major problem with the majority of guitars is the nut. For some reason they are usually too high. Place a capo on the first fret and play some chords. Then check, or eyeball the distance the string is above the fret. Remove the capo and repeat the process. Most times the nut slots are cut higher than the frets (by a lot) and chords feel different and the action is different. Regarding tuning, try tuning the A string harmonic (12th fret) to A=440, or 432hz, or whatever the chosen start point is. Now go through and match all strings fretting with the note A. The A is on the D string 7th fret, G string 2nd and 14th fret, B string 10th fret, e string 5th fret and E string 5th fret. The tuner will show the E notes (the fifth) are a tad sharp. This is because equal temperament flattens all the fifths in The Cycle of Fifths to make the note B# equal to C and close the circle. This is also why all the 3rds are sharp and why as Mick demonstrated playing the 3rds flat is cool sounding to our ears it's coming from nature (The harmonic Overtone Series. This is because as players we are playing in both equal temperament and natural Pythagorean tuning at the same time. When I worked with Walter Becker (honk honk) he claimed the piano killed natural harmony because of the sharp 3rds ha ha!!!
I'd also suggest you check the tuner nut is tight. They can loosen overtime or with changes in humidity. DO NOT over tighten though. Just a light nip. Will help stability
Great video that will 'bend' a few minds :) ! Oboe does play the A (usually 440Hz but some orchestras do use 442Hz)
Great show. Now I understand why I can never get perfectly in tune. It may well be one of your “drier shows” but in terms of practical usefulness it’s right up there with the semi-legendary VCPI show. 👍
Lubricating the nut is sooooooo important for tuning stability. I never realized it before buying a PRS SE 24 Custom. Brand new guitar and i couldnt figure out why my g string couldnt stay in tune, not only would it go flat immediately after fretting anything on that string, it would rise sharp after tuning it back up after fretting any fret. I gave it some thought i realized it was due to friction in the nut making the string catch in the slot. Tune it down, then the string slips and it goes flat, tune it up, then the string slips and it goes sharp, and after i lubricated the slot, problem solved. Even though tuning stability and the intonation problems of guitar might not be as exciting as new pedal, its so important and u guys did an amazing job as usual with your explanation of the topic. Love everything u guys do. Cheers mates!
Having played acoustic guitar for decades before seriously attempting electric guitar, I totally experienced the learning curve of relaxing my grip on electric guitars so that I play in tune. Conversely, it improved how I played acoustic guitars; especially during solos. Just relaxing my fretting hand tension a bit makes for a smoother groove and a bonus is an additional dynamic parameter for expression. Good stuff boys! Happy Friday!
i usually do most of the tuning by barring the second fret with open e, cept the 3rd fret on the b, usually a pass thru with 2 strings at a time, ea, ad, dg, gb, be, then reverse eb, ebg, ebgd, ebgda, ebgdba, some sanity check/temper it with adjustment on the ~6thfret where both areas sound as close
Congratulations for not cracking up when you were lubing your nuts or pressing hard on your jumbo frets. That said, I had to sell my tele with jumbo frets because it was impossible for me to play it in tune. The physics behind the difference in the Tempered scale and Natural scale is that for harmonics the frequency doubles and the relationship between notes/octaves is logarithmic. Which is slightly sharper than the Tempered scale. Technically the natural scale is correct. If you get really deep into this the Blue Note will make sense.
Great video. On the surface, it’s like ‘a video about tuners, really?’ But the content of this video is fundamentally important to the instrument and rarely discussed elsewhere. Thumbs up and I subscribed! Thank you!
When it comes to intonation, once having done the 12th fret adjustment I then check a fretted note in a common playing position, for example pressing the third fret on the low E string. It will be different to the 12th fret. I then find a compromise position between the third and the 12th fret. Then repeat this process with the other strings. The 12th Fret intonation procedure is good but we don’t always play at the 12th fret. I love your shows. Greeting from Sydney. Chris.
YYou guys were not in my feed so I looked you up. Dan's beard got quite grey. Then again I grew mine in and so is mine. Good to see you fellas. I missed you.
There is a great book called How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (And Why You Should Care) by Ross W Duffin which covers the reasons behind some of what Dan talks about at the start of this. There's a fair bit of maths in it, it's heavily biased towards classical music and it helps if you can read a bit of music notation, but if you can get past that, it's fascinating. One point worth noting is that it's not just guitars where everything is a compromise, it's pretty much all instruments. I used to think fretless instruments such as violins were immune to the problems caused (assuming they played with good intonation), but they can run into problems with open strings. Another freaky thing is the way piano tuners stretch the octaves at the top and bottom of the piano to compensate for string inharmonicity.
Having been through several tuners I'm a happy user of the same Peterson pedal you use. After this brilliant episode I know why I'm sometimes still out of tune. Thank you so much, great stuff!
Great show! I love learning things I didn't know that I didn't know. Especially over my morning coffee. Thanks and have a great weekend gents.
This reminds me of the old bluegrass guys like Doc Watson and Tony Rice and such. They always tune to the key they're playing in because of all the reasons you stated. At least that way when everyone lands on the G, or what ever key, it's in tune. I tend to tune to open strings and sweeten the B string somewhere between a first position A and G chord. Seems to work for me.
I had never heard of the tetrachord before !! so much makes more sense to me now... thank you so much Dan !!
Thanks ! I feel my G chord was always not in tune, now I love my G chord!
The out of tune intro thing was creative. Just loved it haha, it was fun, and clearly you guys had fun too
This has been incredibly useful! Can’t believe I’ve been playing guitar for so long without appreciation for the vagaries and foibles of the open chord tunings.
Not a dry episode at all, very informative and I think there is something in here we can all learn
Older the strings have warping of the metal due to bends causing depressions in the string. That causes the vibrations to be flawed..Just run your finger under the string...This occurs almost immediately if you bend excessively.
Apologies for late comment. Have been in Canada. This episode was, yet again, an amazing public service. Just understanding this stuff, including the overall idea that it can be a compromise, would save a lot of real frustration amongst beginners especially. I started in 1975 with the best available aid, which was an E tuning fork. Whack it on my knee and touch the ball end on the saddle, which amplifies the tone. Tune harmonically from there. These days, a brilliant tech is minutes away and he coaches me through all the nuances, covering so much of the same material as in this episode. Just knowing "it will be all right" is yet another reason picking up a guitar will be a good experience. It just makes a person want to play. And removes an impediment to joy. Thanks again, you two. It really helps.
p.s. "Getting used to it" sort of reminds me of getting to know one's studio monitors. Both seem to fit into the realm of "touch".
G! Cheers geezer. Canada, eh? Many of our very most favourite humans come from there. Safe travels sir!
@@ThatPedalShow And mine, eh! Canadians my just be the nicest people on earth. My grandfather and one brother were the only of the siblings who came to California. The rest of the family remained in Canada! 🍁 Cheers for all the love you and Dan share. It means a lot.
Thank you for explaining this stuff. I’ve wondered why ask these tuning things happen for years.
This stuff is not boring.
Really great show highlighting a critical issue. Not too dry at all. Well played, so to speak.
at record yourself as you playing
I have addiction of adding chorus on every rythm guitar track I record.
The effect is that my guitar is never in tune in the most romantic way possible
cheers guys, wish you best and stay in best health
I under stand it was the Piano Accordion that set pitch internationally As it was easy to transport and had a SET PITCHED KEYBOARD!
Man even the fret board and headstock logos lit up on that baby. That’s pretty cool
In a live setting, when I’m really invested in what I’m playing, I often play VERY heavily handed. Cut to 20+ years later, and medium frets and heavy gauge strings are what I’ve settled on. If I play tuned to E, with anything lighter than 12’s on my LP or 11’s on my strat, it will always be a dissonant, discordant mess. Back in my gigging days, I even moved to baritone strings in Eb tuning. I tried a “true temperament” fretted neck. It didn’t negate my ham hands lol.
I feel you. For my real gigging years, plenty of 11s on a Strat with high action. Stepped down to 10s and for decades really worked on softening that right hand but I still can’t play a Les Paul strung with 9s without sounding like a slurry mess. It’s ALL so personal which is why it’s an endless and endlessly worthwhile road to keep working on the machine, bit by bit
Drinking in that much wisdom was a privilege! I use Peterson, TC Polytune, & SNARK. Learned them all like you said. Thank you gentlemen! It's a joy to find an hour and a quarter of the Tone of Truth. I will always Tune in!
Perhaps the most important video on the internet.
Excellent video... I am always aware of the 'situational' tuning I find myself in, exactly because of all the combinations you mentioned here factored in, make up how you sound. I was lucky enough to get a small amount of tutoring at University from the great Sorod master Ustad Amjad Ali Khan, who blew my mind with tunings and showed us about the notes between the semitones and how important they are.
Loved this show! My Politune rocks! I don’t get to watch much of these hour long episodes since returning back to work but this one had me gripped.
The laugh when Mick realized the guitar lights up at 45:59 is just pure unfiltered awesome, cheers gents on another great show
I am an exceedingly average guitarist and over the last 30 years this has been the fight. Was fantastic to watch and be reassured that it’s not just me! It is probably the reason that all my guitars are the same scale length and bridge type and those periods where the tuning is ‘right’ are magical.
My son has just started to play and it is painful to hear chords played ‘correctly’ without all those little pressure tweaks, string skips, mutes etc that you learn over the years to make it all sound good. He saved up and bought himself an electric guitar - 3/4 size and came with 10s - he just couldn’t play it in tune and it truly hurt to see how upset he was. 12s on now and all is good but I felt bad that I didn’t see it coming as I had just automatically played lightly while setting it up.
Thanks for all the great shows, I am off to go and fight with my newest guitar and come to an agreement on what we both think is in tune.
Thanks for this. I will embrace the idiosyncrasies in the sound of my tuning and lean into the idea that it is my own unique tone.
Great video. In vs out of tune is a complex issue as an individual player can play both tempered & untempered or natural harmonic notes *in tune* to their relative systems on the same instrument w/ the same set up in the same song w/ out changing key. The "flat" bends cited in the video can be an example. Major 3rds or 7ths in a chord be played as fretted tempered notes, then played as untempered (flatter) bent notes in a melody or in single or double bends in double stops or triads. This often happens unconsciously. Of course notes can be clearly not in tune w/ anything & then return to the chosen key (usually tempered).
I've got insomnia here in California and this is just perfect, thank you!
Absolutely fascinating gents.
I watched an episode of tone talk where John Suhr (and someone else, sorry I can't remember who) were guests, John Suhr said that he sets intonation at the 1st and 13th frets not open and 12th as it takes away the inconsistencies of a badly cut nut. I also watched Joe Bonemassa talk about tuning, said he didn't wander from A440, said the guitar is an inprocise instrument, we've all been listening and that for decades don't worry about it
Great show. I also remember when starting guitar in the early to mid 1980's gigging with a guitar player that owned an expensive Peterson strobe tuner and being very impressed by it. Now some 30-35 years later I am so fortunate to own several of the Peterson stomp type tuners. For some reason just easier for me to interpret over led tuners even if I'm purposefully trying to tune a string a bit sharp or flat. I have also, over the years, learned to hone down my guitar collection to just a few, very well made and set-up guitars that I can get all the tones I will ever need for my enjoyment.