The Science of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (with @NOAHFINNCE) | Sci Guys Podcast
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- Narcissistic Personality Disorder is one of the most maligned and misunderstood of mental conditions, so this week we're dipping our toes into the science behind the disorder!
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References & Further Reading
openpsychometrics.org/tests/N...
openpsychometrics.org/tests/N...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NB...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
www.uchicagomedicine.org/fore...
www.scientificamerican.com/ar...
www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term...
ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/...
www.britannica.com/science/na...
www.mind.org.uk/information-s...
www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
Noah? So many Noah episode recently. Love seeing him on the podcast.
this is genuinely the only podcast i can watch / listen to without getting distracted lmao !
Same haha
I have been a gardener for a decade and today I learned why the Latin name for the common daffodil is Narcissus Pseudonarcissus…
I came from Spotify to say this, good day gentlemen.
Ps. Listening to your podcast really helps work go faster
In many languages, a daffodil is actually named after the Latin name. For example, in Czech, we call it narcis. 😊
In spanish (México specifically) one singular plant is called narciso which is the name of the character too
As someone raised by a narcissist, I can say that your humour is refreshing, Corry. A lot of stuff is very on point with my own experience (growing up in close proximity to a narc). The narc I know easily cut people out of their life if they "are being bad people", and anything can make them bad, like simply not agreeing on sth or saying that the narc is wrong. They are always right and never wrong so everything is always someone elses fault or responsibility. They can tend to someone elses "needs" if it benefits them to do so, like they plan ahead and see that this person can be of use in that way later so it is beneficial to rub them the right way at this time. As a child of a narc I only got the basic needs met, no actually... I only got my basic needs met when absolutely necessary if it served the narc in any way; "my" narc loved attention and if they could get it by using me and my "needs" then they did that. For example. If they could shine as a parent and get positive attention by taking me to the hospital when I was ill or injured, then they did, but not if they thought I would get more attention than them. If I got ill or hurt or injured and it didn't suit them at that time because they had better things or other things to do or tend to, then I did not get help. Then I got to hear stuff like "oh, that's nothing to cry about, stop fuzzing" or their favorurite: they started to talk about how they once got hurt and it was always much worse and I have nothing to complain about. I learned very early that if I cry once and no one comes then it is no use crying again, just suck it up and bottle it, it's probabaly just in my mind anyway. (Sad, I know.)
Ironically I was in and out of hospital a lot for some things while others were minimized by the narc and never treated because they are a master manipulator. The things I was in for was not even that bad, they just had "a great relationship" with that doctor and kept wanting to go see them because they listened to her and affirmed her, while other stuff was completely neglected simply because it didn't serve the narc to help me.
My other parent relied a lot on the narc and has appologised (a lot) in recent years for their neglect of me as a child because of trusting the narc to a fault (because the narc was confident, always 'knew everything', took charge and had previous experience of rasing children (I have older half-siblings) etc).
I am currently going through stuff as an adult, medicly, that should have been fixed when I was a child but didn't because of the narcs neglect. It was never caught before because I was never taken to the doctor and then it became "my normal" and I didn't think to go to the doc for it. It is amazing what you can suffer through simply because you were taught not to complain and that youw feelings and pain isn't valid.
And now it was discovered because of a wonderful doc that saw something a bit off that made her dig deeper and look beyond the obvious. My other parent is wonderful and are supporting me through it and often sinks through the floor with shame when realising time and time again everything they could have/should have caught or seen. I feel no need to blame them since it is clear they blame themselves enough.
Same 😅 When the medical side of things got too obvious, they’d take me to doctors *they* picked, and suddenly their “good” doctors knew nothing when they’d confirm that I, indeed, needed medical assistance. I wish your issues become as manageable as possible 💚💚
@@lucyl4603 Thank you. And yes, that is so relatable. The emotional is for now worse than the physical, to know and to process the level of neglect.
XD love the disclaimer about not actually being able to speak to prawns.
13:18 I though he was going to say “…and someone who is clinically, an asshole.” lmao
I will always watch a sci guys episode but if it’s got NOAH IN IT I will click SO FAST
1:08:25 Also, wouldn't NPD to some extent prevent the person from seeking any kind of professional help? Because they probably wouldn't want to go to therapy without first recognizing themselves that there is something negative about them/something others (or themselves) wouldn't consider "perfect". Hope I made some sense?
Basically, either they wouldn't even think that there's anything to change about their behavior or they wouldn't want to admit they're not the idealized version of themselves they think they are/want to be.
yh ik some ppl who've seeked help but i can see why it could be more difficult
No, many people with npd suffer greatly. They may not see that their behaviour is linked with it, but they can still know something isn't going right. Also the comorbidities can lead to the npd being recognised + treated if they go in for say depression or ocd
This is a common myth about npd. They suffer a lot due to their disorder, and can even wonder if they themselves are a narcissist. It’s less likely for an overt narcissist to see the harm in their behavior than a covert narcissist, though, and seek help accordingly
you earned my thumbs up when you stopped eugenics happening together that was a beautiful moment
As someone who also had a narcissist parent, I say Noah is right about not excusing bad behavior because of trauma. I was raised by a narcissistic father and I have gone to through 5 years of different doctors and therapists, and I just learned the reason I walk weird was because I had an infected toenail for 20 years that I just learned to walk carefully around. To say we shouldn't allow for narcissist to raise children might lead to eugenics sure, so I would rather phrase it that we should allow neglectful or/and abusive parents to raise children.
My mother felt sorry for me after divorcing my father, that I hadn't had siblings to support me, but I never want another child go through the same experiences what I have had. Narcissists do not only twist their own world to suit their sense of superiority, but also of those who are around them. My father had the ability to deny reality itself when needed, for example like buying himself gifts for Christmas and claiming but ALSO believing they were from someone else, because he had to have more gifts than anyone. Every time something broke it was my mother's or my fault, and it really messes up your psyche to be always responsible for every little ''mistake'' or ''wrong doing''. My therapist told that this feeling of humiliation leads to same response as pain in our brains, and I can believe it. I was really close to choosing die by drowning myself when I was a teen, and child protection did nothing because it was ''just mental abuse'' not physical.
And yeah, I know the reason my father probably became what he was, might be because his mother treated him differently from her other children. She chose to divorce from her abusive husband when he abused my father, but she had let her other children be abused without complaining. Maybe that lead to my father developing narcissism either as conformation of his mother's special treatment towards him or a sense of guilt of how he was the only child his mother had cared for, even over his twin sister. Either way the end result was that his siblings didn't want anything to do with him or their mother, he had two kids with two wife's who later divorced him and he never had any friends to the moment he died from alcohol.
- A pitiful life for sure, but what had kept me living is that despite our trauma and circumstances we humans can choose how we act and what we strive for. Humans aren't just victims of poor cards dealt to them, but we can grow as people until the moment we die, and thus I feel no pity towards my father. You can always choose, that is what I believe.
As a kid of a narcissistic parent I am SO ready for this!
thank u for discussing this without being aggressive towards ppl w npd! so much content online is just ppl projecting their trauma at this group and frankly it gives me the ick
im so glad you guys approached this topic the way that you did! in my experience people who have npd are instantly written off as evil assholes who are always consciously looking to hurt people and that definitely isnt the case. i have a few friends who were diagnosed with npd and they are so much more than that and with therapy and working on themselves they can live full lives without hurting the people around them. its interesting that while bpd and npd share some traits and can both be super impulsive and hurtful, bpd gets a bit better rep of the two probably bc of the immediate implications of the word narcissist. i feel like people with bpd still get a more empathetic approach from most people while of course they also get demonized as well... i really agree with what Corry said that we should be empathetic towards people with personality disorders. abuse is abuse and noone should put up with abuse but demonizing a whole group of people bc of harmful stereotypes isnt the solution.
i have a bpd diagnosis btw, although i suspect i actually have autism and was misdiagnosed tbh but thats neither here nor there.
21:30 As a shrimp myself, following on every platform indeed made me able to speak to prawns.
It’s been quite a while since I watched a new episode and I’ve been loving the absurd instructions for how to answer the question at the start. Reminds me of Welcome to Night Vale
i love when noah is on the podcast
My ex best friend fits all of this. Thank you for this episode. She had me gaslit to the point I thought everything she did was fine. The part about having to live up to there expectations hit me hard. She claimed it was my fault she did not trust me after 12 years of friendship and I needed to work harder to earn it. 12 years of this, its so hard to get out of there clutches. It is a serious lack of empathy. 😢
Can you do an episode on AvPD? Let's just say that due to some personal experiences I feel like NPD and AvPD have some stuff in common, especially the part about fearing rejection
What's AvPD?
@@bronwen6484 Avoidant personality disorder, its in the cluster C category of personality disorders
@@kd-uu8jn ohh right thanks
1:14:00 i agree w u completely. i used to think i have low empathy bc i don't rly care if my friends r sad etc, i only care that it affects me. or if someone tells me they feel sick, i don't like that bc then i feel sick and it affects me. but i realised that the very fact that i'm emotionally and physically affected is the sign of empathy. i think i always avoided that word bc i don't like being egotistic. altho, maybe my ego is what's making me try not to be egotistic lmao
I´ve worked for a person who I would say had NPD. They always talked about themselves, didn´t really let me speak, I only had to listen sometimes for even an hour! If something did go wrong, it was always everyone elses fault and she often talked bad about other people even clients. At the beginning, I was very scared of them (more so because I´m very insecure), because I had never met such kind of person, but after a year I figured out her behaviour and that it hadn´t necessarily something to do with me. Their office looked very disorganized and they were more than overwhelmed with their work, but they either didn´t see it or ignored it. I tried to understand them to feel better at work. I had to ingratiate myself so they treated me nicer and this false behaviour of me disgusted me. Sometimes if they talked about their family and the past I thought I could hear that it was not easy for them and that their relatives were harsh and strict. They had a disabled brother for whom they had to care for since their parents died and so they weren´t independent. Even if I somehow could understand why they were how they were and felt pity for them, working for them was really hard and it was mentally exhausting. I was very very glad when I left this job.
On my second episode of sci guys of the day 🎉
literally w my friends rn but i cant wait to go home and watch this
As a person on the spectrum, I am often told im unapproachable and look irritable. So, I totaly get this. Work exhausts all my spoons so I just don't have the energy to internalize when people approach me but I'm actually really nice. Like, I actually enjoy people. Just not the ones that look irritated and unapproachable 😂
In medical school currently, and the *basic* way to remember transference and counter transference I learned:
"Transference is the patient saying 'you remind me of my parent' to the therapist. Counter transference is the therapist saying 'you remind me of my kid'"
Not a perfect way to remember it, but it gives you the general idea!
anyone else realizing they used to be friends with people like this👀? No? Just me?
REAL! i just got out of a toxic relationship/ friendship with someone like that like a year ago. :)
@@rosegriffin2038 well done:)
"Oops! Did a eugenics" 😂
This is random and not really related but I'm an ex patron (can't afford it rn lol) but thank you for this pod and the conversation about "what happened in someone's life" was so helpful for me to hear as someone currently going through therapy for cptsd
can't wait to watch this ep! i rly enjoy this utuber called the nameless narcissist, i find his insights so interesting and i feel like i can empathise w ppl w npd better
First time I see Luke has he/they pronouns. Nice 😄
My mother is a narcissist, which I realized after quite a while. It was so difficult to try and have her seek therapy, treatment, or even acknowledge my feelings. She is not formally diagnosed, which I think is probably the case with many, which would contribute to rates seeming very low. After a certain amount of effort and pain, I realized that she would not change since she claimed to have nothing wrong with herself. She has no friends, only because she sees no benefit to them, and will avoid relationships, but expect them when it is convenient or helpful to her.
I was a psych student for like a semester and I had classes with practicing psychologists and one of them told me that psychologist hold back from telling people with npd they have npd bc they’re more likely to stop going to therapy than if they didn’t tell them, this might just be that professor that holds back,,, he also said they also try to not give labels to patients
So as an important note, NPD people aren't always void of empathy, it's just severely diminished. A total lack of empathy is psychopathy. Additionally, Scott Rouse, an expert in the field of psychopathy, regularly reminds people that ALL psychopaths are narcissists, but NOT all narcissists are psychopaths.
Additional fun fact: NPD, BPD, OCD, and bipolar disorder are all frequently misdiagnoses for ASD. They can also be comorbid, though that is most frequently the case for OCD than the others. I used to think my dad had NPD. Then i realized I'm autistic. Now i think he is too, but the way he learned to exist without a diagnosis, and being wholly unaware and fully in denial that he is anything but neurotypical, resembles NPD
Also one of the reasons there is so little research and treatment for NPD is because none of them are willing to believe that anything could possibly be wrong with them. They dont seek treatment and therefore data is limited
32:40 omg so once I felt really sorry for the drops of water dripping out of the faucet when I turned off the water when I was getting water to drink and I waited there for a good few minutes encouraging the drops to make it to the cup because I imagined a scenario where the mom drop had already made it to the cup (train) but the dad and the children drops were still trying to find her because they lost her in the faucet (train station) and they were hurrying to find her because the second I took the cup away the train would’ve left and that would be awful because the mom had been carrying all of their things like the money and stuff and the dad was going to have to suffer with the children because then they had nothing and it made me really sad and obsessive for a few minutes until I finally forced myself to stop thinking about it 😭
First of all, true narcissists seldom seek help, because nothing is ever their fault. My narc parent once went to a therapist but just once, because the therapist didn't "agree" with anything the narc said so they were "worthless".
Second, narcissists don't work for the common good, or for the good of the community without getting something out of it, everything and everyone are resouces, including their children, siblings, spouses, parents etc. If you fail to be a resource then you are worthless to them, so unless they have congitive empathy (which among others, Dr Ramani speaks of often), they don't see that they are hurting other people, and more importantly, they don't care if they do. If they seem to care it is only because you are a resource and it will benefit them later if they show up for you now. Like maing sure the workers don't die because it would be a hassle to train new ones.
If a narcissist do end up in therapy (mostly court mandated if you should trust therapists that share information online) then a good therapist don't say "hey, I am bearing bad news, I think you have NPD", they sit on that knowledge and try to guide the client to come to that conclusion. Maybe they will say stuff like "do you see how everything you have told me can be interpreted as selfcentered on your part"?
My therapist told me that about my mom: "So, what you just told me sounds like she is rather selfcentered, or what do you think?
And later on..."so, listening to you and how your mom speaks to you and treats you, how would you feel looking through the lense of that being about Her looking out for herself and not you?"
Thanks for stopping the route to "whoopsy eugenics!"
Got a tiktok ad right after Noah said "that's what I heard on tiktok" lmao
Can you guys discuss eunuchs? 'Cause I'm in love with one and I have questions it's easier to ask you. He's getting sick and you can tell he's dying young and he has no HRT, and no gonads, so obviously he needs it based on the public knowledge I know from simple Google study (I hate his doctor!). So fill me in, please! And get Noah Finnce involved!
Would Noah be able to share the people he’s following that have NPD? If it’s public accounts ofc.
I was recently diagnosed with NPD and am trying to reword my brain a bit so it would be great to be able to hear other people that have it as well.
I also know someone who always believes like Noah & Luke that people "must have a reason" when there's a clear discrimination, and I don't know if the common denominator is that he's autistic or that he's white 👀
As a lover of science, the underlying issues are interesting.
As an adult child of someone with this, I don't give a flying fuck why, it changes nothing. Evil is evil, reasons or not.
I am overly empathetic, but I can't have empathy here (unless they're actively working on it).
i feel the same way; thank you for saying this!
yh i think it's important to not let ur experience w one person dictate ur feelings towards a whole group :)
@planetaryg0 I think it is important to not manipulate and use people.
@@5210smile right, but the whole point of a personality disorder is that the person can't help it. i think casting them off as just evil is counterproductive and actually hinders them from receiving help and desiring to get better. i'd be friends w a narcissist, some of them seem like interesting and intelligent ppl!
@@planetaryg0 when the other option is to be abused? No.
I hope I’m not a narcissist. Both my parents are narcissists.
Interesting. Empathetic ability as a privlege in the same sense of male, white privlege etc.
today i found out i might have npd
empathy sounds crazy
Bro you have Patrick Bateman as your pfp. 😂
don't be ashamed if u do! a lot of ppl online act hostile towards this group but u def don't deserve it
What happened to the 3rd sci guy. He was a funny
ive been wondering that too but hes been gone for a while so idk. also who's the 4th sci guy supposed to be if noah's the 5th
@@averageceilingenjoyer True. Hmmmm. Probably aliens fault
@@averageceilingenjoyer the fourth sci guy is u, the viewer
Please tell me this is a spoofing account. This is a parody of something else. I need to believe that.