The 5 Worst DnD Players
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- čas přidán 20. 07. 2024
- Today we're ranking the 5 worst Dungeons and Dragons players of all time. Will YOU make this list? Also, we're going to talk about helpful tips in how to deal with them if you're a DM or a DnD 5e player wanting to change.
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@@Taking20 Hey man, just realized it’s been a year since your last vids. Really hope you come back!
I used to be too much of a rules lawyer as a player but then I adopted the following approach: shut up until the DM asks you. It's made a world of difference and now I'm more of a rules assistant.
A rules paralegal, if you will.
Rules assistants are actually amazing! I have two at my table and with the 3 of us we know every rule, which is so helpful.
I don't even argue in favor or against us specifically, I just wanna make the DM aware of the rule in case they are not. I just don't know when to keep my gob shut.
I started off as a rules lawyer too but it was because I didn’t want anyone to lose out on anything they shouldn’t have
I’ve had pretty much the same experience. My friends all know that I know the rules and want to help, so I stay quiet until they ask me a question.
Best way to deal with a rules lawyer citing Crawford
"Jeremy Crawford isn't running this session. I am."
Edit: Also, rules _enthusiasts_ are a boon from the gods
IDC what anyone says (Crawford included), elves need to take a 8 hour break for a long rest. 4 for meditating, 4 for rec/craft time.
"Crawford said that? Huh. Since we are not playing D&D, I don't give a shit what he says. This is the RPG called FantasyCraft." -- Yes, I have actually said this
I usually tell my players that I am technically allowed to lie to them and make up whatever I need for the scenario
@@myst_hg are they lying to you also?
@@myst_hg let me correct you there. You are not allowed to lie to your players. You’re allowed to withhold information they wouldn’t have, or change things from what was originally intended. And your NPCs are allows to lie to their characters, but you the DM are not allowed to lie to your Players.
Hi, recovering metagamer here. I’ve been clean for about eight years now.
The biggest advice I can give to other meta gamers, is that people love it when you do it right. Know that there’s a trap around the corner? Boldly walk in to it, while declaring how astute at observation you are! Know that enemy is immune to fire? Cast your biggest fireball, then be aghast as it survives! These moments will be far more memorable than you always performing flawlessly, and you will get to continue feeling like the smartest person at the table.
thats such a good lesson I also learned from watching Acquisitions Incorporated play. Every opportunity for meta gaming has a much funnier opportunity for comedy.
Just like you said, players can use their meta knowledge to turn their characters lack of knowledge into the funniest thing of the session (of course, if the general mood of the session permits it)
I'm also in the process of trying to stop myself but I'm also the one who has to make the plans/be the one who doesn't dump intelligence so the first step I took was play a class/character who actually knows a lot about things so the accidental blurting out of something feels less metagamey because the character would have good reason to know that too (for example I had a bard who was the younger sister to a whole bunch of adventurers and had heard stories from them that she bases her storytelling off and I had an order of scribes wizard who spends time researching monsters to help them learn to modify the magic they use) then I started having characters who only knew about specific monsters (e.g. rangers with favoured enemies) and asking if my characters would reasonably know about something (like a recent instance where we were told we were going to fight rot grubs and I asked if my ranger with beasts as the favoured enemy would know that they needed to be burnt off to avoid them burrowing)
Sounds like you’re doing great! Keep up the good work!
As DM, I learned that if I need a rule looked up, I ask my rules lawyer player. It gives him that serotonin rush he wants and gets the info I need fast, since he usually knows where to find it. He’s also learned to ask “can I ask a question about the rule now or wait till later?” It gives me the option and sometimes I’m fine with talking about it in game, especially if the consequences are dire.
Re: rules lawyer.
You get to bring up your opinion once at the table. You get one appeal after the decision is made. After that, any further discussion takes place after the game. Also, all decisions made in the moment do not obligate the DM to make that one off decision a permanent feature of the game.
Agreed. I’ve said a handful of times when we’re unsure whether or not something is a “legal move” that “I’ll allow it this time, but let’s look in the books later and I may rule differently next time.”
As a Power Gamer and GM most games. My advice to power gamers is optimize to slack off. You have more flexibility to be reckless, try special actions, and let allies have your loot shares out of pure pride. If you're a tank, give the enemy a free hit, it's cool when it works and hilarious when they crit. Get serious only when neccessary. It's allot of fun.
Exactly this. I try to make powerful characters so I can actively do cool shit or make reckless moves, rather than playing tactically. I _want_ to not be 100% cautious, to not be quite 100% optimal, to do dumb daring stunts primarily because they're an option, but to have them be at least _somewhat_ viable for my character to attempt.
Good suggestions. Personally, I tend to get a bit power-gamey, especially in Pathfinder because it's so easy to do and another bit of advice I would add is that I think it's better to intentionally pick an underwhelming mechanical concept for a character and then try to optimize THAT. Don't look for the best character you can, look for an odd/interesting character that shouldn't really work well and then try to make that work as best as you can. 9 times out of 10, you'll end up with a reasonable power curve AND an interesting and fun character to roleplay.
One thing if someone is a power gamer that I’ve found to be a good solution. Be support. There are a lot of really powerful optimal builds that are support/control, and these can make the other characters feel important and useful, while the power gamer knows that they are really the one making the difference. Treantmonks God Mage video is a really good example of this.
Other point is that the worst player, worse than any of these are the players that bully harass or make fun of other players at the table for roleplaying or experimenting.
Yes, this. It's a great way to use your power-gaming talent for the benefit of everyone, I completely agree.
I honestly love these to check my own behavior against. So thank you! I try to be hyper aware of hogging the RP as the only player at our table who super enjoys it? So I appreciate ideas on how to check myself and encourage the others too. Much appreciation :)
thank you so much for the part at 10:35
I admit that I borderline on rules lawyering a lot. I play with a lot of people that don't really look into the rules, so when a topic comes up, I usually know what the books say, they don't. What I try to do in these cases, when playing online, is I message the official rule to the dm, so they can decide whether they want to follow it or not, or when a dm hesitates in the session and says "I need to think about this", I like to bring forward what the consensus on the thing is - and most of those friends who don't know a lot of rules actually asked me if I know what the official ruling is in multiple cases.
I had another player once be like "I didn't ask you, I asked the dm" in a *really* bitchy voice, and that honestly made me so incredibly insecure. Yes, the dm makes the final call, I am on board with that, but what is so bad about telling the dm what the official ruling is if they are unsure and hesitating on their call? I though that might help with deciding whether they want to follow it or not. I would get it if I was pressing to follow that ruling only, or if I was doing it openly all the time. But that just really urked me.
I know, rules lawyering is annoying for others, so I keep it to myself and private conversations with the dm in 95% of the cases, but cmon, I also expect the game I play to actually be the game I play. Let me bring forward an official rule if the dm doesn't call a ruling, without any attachments of "it has to be like that".
I have a player like you. I treasure him. If I forget what the official rule/ruling is on a thing, he knows it, or knows where to find it a few minutes. It's really useful when I have umpteen different things going on.
There's nothing wrong with knowing the rules. There's nothing wrong with informing the DM of the rules. You are not a "rules lawyer" unless you **argue** about what the rules are with the DM. You're fine.
Ah, so you're more a Rules Solicitor rather than a Rules Barrister.
It sounds like the player was trying to get away with something because the DM did not know and did not like geting caught.
100%
.
The method I've adopted is, "The book says..." or "Jeremy Crawford said..." and leave the fact on the table to be used or ignored. As you said, "without any attachments of 'it has to be like that'."
I think you missed one... "That guy". This is similar to the spotlight hog (with a sprinkling of the others), but the toxicity is turned up to another level. They never want to take a backseat in any encounter. Every plan needs to be theirs. Their abilities need to be the answer to everything. And when they don't get their way, they pout. They complain. And they make the session unenjoyable for everyone else.
The most popular example of this - Orion Acaba
This 💯. We had one of these and it's not something you can usually fix.
You just reminded me of those hellish first episodes...
I try really hard to get other party members to speak up and give input. Sometimes it feels like it is left to me to move the story forward. I am conflicted by this. I want others to participate more.
This sounds like an anti-spotlight hog
I know what you mean. I often ask myself if I'm too much of a spotlight hog, but my wife said I'm not.
It’s important to remember that for a significant subset of players, the thing they want most is “to have fun playing a game with friends,” and so being a spotlight hog is actually helpful.
Communication is the critical component to knowing if you’re a “bad” hog or a “good” hog.
Thank you for taking the time to choose sponsors who make products that TTRPG’ers are actually likely to be interested in. That sounds shill-y but I really really appreciate the effort that goes into selecting products. That Army Painter kit is going to be a perfect Christmas present for a few of my players (and maybe get them to paint their minis). :)
I was a bit of a spotlight hog in one of those "everyone else is a wallflower" games where it felt like even the DM was a wallflower. Pulling others into the spotlight to give them a chance to shine forces them to interact with the story/scene. They might just be new to the whole tabletop scene, so as a spotlight hog you should be trying to set up situations that the other PCs would naturally set up at so that the players will get used to stepping up without having to be provoked.
I was too, and also in a party that wanted to leave every room instantly without looking beyond what the DM described, nothing I seemed to do would make the others want to RP and interact more despite my repeatedly ending up a spotlight hog by being the one to check the bookshelves for hidden spell books, or look for secret doors and the checks resulting in many secret doors being found. Grant it for 2 of the 5 players it was their first game, but even with talking to them between games they just did not want to actually interact with the environment in the game.
The worst player: touches all the dices you have given with their cheetos covered greasy fingers
No court in the land would punish you for removing those fingers. Even Kyuss wouldn't perform an act so foul.
Or wipes their nose with their hands, and then roll the dice. Ugh. I hate those players. Also, they tend to be the ones who "forget" their dice too.
You don’t bring a separate dice bag of uncouth dice, just in case someone asks to borrow some? In the words of Wild Bill Hickcock…shouldn’t touch another man’s dice.
I was a huge meta-gamer because I love strategy games to the umpteenth degree. I basically curved it myself because I DM. I always put myself in my Monster's shoes by looking at, "What does this monster know, and what does it want?" and I do that with my character now, "Am I stupid? Do I got muscles? Yeah, I'm gonna push that boulder down the hill at the enemy convoy"
The way I handle spotlight hogs is by finding out what they like about the game and ask them how we can get OTHERS in the game to like it too. Example: I had a spotlight hog who was REALLY into to the roleplaying aspect. We worked together with the idea that others weren't really as engaged and it would make the roleplaying even better for this player if others were also engaged. That alone made it to where the spotlight hog was working to SHARE the spotlight at that point.
I used to DM a lot and I've usually made it clear when we get a new player that the rules are to assist my storytelling and the player's immersion. If the person has a problem with how I interpret a rule or game mechanic, he is free to speak to me about it after a session but I don't condone disruptive arguments during gameplay.
So what's your goal in DM'ing and your view of DnD? Do you run primarily a game with rules that has storytelling like an RPG, or a story that has some rules closer to a byo adventure book?
I find that the first lends itself to rules lawyers and power players. To them its multiplayer game. Where the second is more for RP storytelling players. I think expectation is incredibly important especially when getting new players.
If you're the former wouldn't it be best to just draft up a rule addendum to hand out ahead of time then? It avoids any complications and as long as you're consistent and fair and the rules lawyers will have nothing to lawyer.
If you're the latter, just saying that will keep both lawyers and power gamers from even wanting to join in my experience.
@@elliottparks8762 For me it's more about the storytelling. I played a lot of VTM and there were other times where I'd run games without any game mechanics at all.
I'll list house rules at the start of a campaign but I don't mind people having complaints about mistakes I made or the interpretation of specific rules.
I'm more than happy to listen to complaints after sessions but I won't allow a session to devolve into an argument or a debate on rules.
I've been DMing since the early 90s so there's not many rules I haven't heard and I know I don't interpret things exactly as other's do so I don't mind people pointing out problems they have with my rulings but, for the enjoyment of others, as well as myself, I don't like sessions getting out of hand.
@@Milocinia yeah, that's exactly the perfect way to handle it imo. Ty for being an open dm.
I have ASD and have a tendency to be a bit of a "rules lawyer", especially if I feel it leads to something unjust!
But as I grown older, my memory starts to fail me, so I’m not as bad as I used to be!
Funny, I have ASD and I find people who constantly argue with the DM insufferable.
@@DaDunge
I can do that as well, and my own "rule lawyering" is mostly if there's something I find unjust.
I fully recognize that the DM has to have room to manoeuvre within to make a game exiting.
So I don't argue over everything!
I think both your response and mine can be within typical traits of people with ASD.
At least if it's to such a degree that it's more than most other people.
@@gorillaguerillaDK yeah I can also from time to time bring up a rule but I try to remember to phrase it along the lines of "It's your call but I think RAW it's like this". Bringing up rules is not a problem really its when the DM makes a ruling and someone keeps arguing.
Hey there! Love your content and can't wait to see more :D
I'm a writer and narrative designer in the tabletop and video game industry and I've been thinking about revamping my channel to focus more on tabletop content (as that's what I've been doing freelance for - just worked on NeverEnding's Anansi's Tapestry of Lives Kickstarter) with a perspective from a DM who also writes and designs professionally.
I'd love to pick your brains or have a chat about creating TTRPG content for CZcams as I'm trying to get advice on what/how to do it pretty much.
I feel the worst when i wrongly apply some character meccanics, doing more than i should have done. For example when i used "Heart of the Storm" of my Sorcerer, and i COMPLETELY overloocked the range limtation, i was doing like 4 damage to every enemy on the board.
When i realised that, it was too late, but to feel better i streight up told the other players that i had done something wrong.
Truth right here, I still feel guilty about adding my ability modifier on an offhand attack last week. Probably inconsequential but you never know!
@Iacopo Menegatti take it as a Shonen anime arc where you spontaneously got more powerful with the power of emotions
This whole video breaks down into a very simple business principle: Don't hate the player, hate the behavior. Communicate, empathize both for the DM and players and work together to make a better game.
If you accuse someone of cheating be 110% sure they actually cheated please. It really hurts to be accused when you actually didn’t cheat you weren’t fudging those perception rolls you just had a + 7 and no one thought to check
I feel called out. 💀 As the resident DM of my friend group, great video! I have encountered almost all of these people at some point for sure!
I would like to add: the bipolar player. An especially painful subsection of the disengaged player. One who becomes a spotlight hog when their dice are on fire, and when they start rolling poorly, they disengage and get silent, or get super, super upset. Basically, someone whose enjoyment is based off of the success of the dice rolls.
I'm a tad guilty of that one - my friends take the Mick out of me.
You really shouldn’t title it bipolar. Please pick a more inclusive title. Maybe the Hot & Cold Player?
@@taylorgamble1965 a Katy Perry player?
@@kayrupe125 sure, much better than stigmatizing a neurological disability. 🙂
@@taylorgamble1965 Feel free to title it what you want, hoss. Bipolar best captures it for me. And we prefer not to call it a disability.
I have to give props to your delivery, even as I'm listening to this video while doing something else, your voice work and intonations keep me from zoning out of it and getting distracted
Maybe it's because what my brother always played but I hate the tragic backstory lonewolf character. The indifference and lack of trust just feels like they would rather be doing something else.
I like to constantly remind players that the "rules" are not "rules" they are suggestions, and if I or we want to adjust them, we can. I also like to stress that changing or adjusting rules is how the game is meant to be played. Now, just randomly changing a rule on the fly because it suits can be a massive slippery slope that leads to complete chaos, having a short conversation can go a long way to improving play as a whole and helps to shut down or at least quiet the rules lawyer.
I'm surprised we didn't see like "The Constantly Distracted Player" that's never really at the session even when they're physically present. No matter how much you try to involve them, you can't because they don't know what's going on and haven't been paying attention to any of the context for their situation.
Another bit of advice for dealing with the Spotlight Hog is to resolve their stuff at the appropriate moments. If that player was the first to get to a door to check it out then of course you resolve them checking for traps and lockpicking the door immediately. But if you've got a player who likes to run and bounce all over the map and wants to be involved in every little thing... make them wait. If they are the sort to go off and explore a hallway while the rest of the group is checking out a door but then they want to run back when that door finally gets opened, then wait to resolve what they find when the explore said hallway until *after* the group has entered that room and had a few moments to look around.
Loved the callisto reference for Perfect Dark. Definitely great video for checking our own play styles. As both a player and a DM/GM, I'm always looking to improve my roleplaying
Spotlight hogs really get my goat (as a DM and a player). One time I had a player who just didn’t know when to shut up. He was dominating the game and the other players complained to me that he wasn’t letting them have a chance to role play their PCs. To put a stop to this, I pulled him aside after a game session and had a chat with him. I explained to him that I understood that he was enthusiastic about the game, but at the same time, he needed to let the other players play the game too. After all, D&D is a team game, not a single player game. I also asked him to help me out by asking the other players questions to get them to engage more often. Thankfully it worked and I haven’t had any more problems with him.
then theres those players who put themself in every situation, even ones they shouldnt know of or be in, including crucial backstory ones for other players
Cody: “How should you handle cheaters? Kick ‘em the HELL out”
My legitimate reaction: “…Hell yeah”
I genuinely didn't see #1 coming, I constantly forget people do that in TTRPG's with friends.
• the problem with the lonely Power Gamer is that, if you wanna make the game fun for them, you might have a TPK, as all other PCs will die. either we have a Powergaming party or a party with a PC that's just above the curve.
• having a player who you cab defer most questionable rulings to, or who can give you advice if you don't kniw what to do is a blessing; having a "rules for me, not for thee" cheater is a curse.
QUESTION: What about DM metagamers? When DM's conspire with one of the group to make sure the slant of the plot or fight go as intended. It's not fun for the other players when they realize this isn't for them and feels preordained, like the other characters don't matter.
Take you DM aside and tell them you feel like you are just spectators instead of players in a TTRPG game. Honestly the best way a player described railroading/having no agency to me.
Question: is it always the same player, or did you possibly misunderstand the DM attempting to give everyone “their time in the spotlight?”
The difference is subtle, and the DM’s ability plays a huge factor in how obvious it would look that that’s what’s happening, so a newer, less experienced DM might be trying and giving more attention to a single player because they react most often, and the DM is winging it.
Or it could be the DM is trying to slide into that players DMs and it’s a totally bad DM thing to be doing. Or that DM and player are close friends and they don’t care about the group. Or whatever. Thousands of ways to be a bad DM.
Nuance, is my point. I’d like more data please. Feel free to not.
@@demonzabrak a new DM, always the same player in spotlight and getting the rewards, rest of group has to sit there and watch, constantly. And DM keeps doing things to exclude the group and focus on the same one player. For some reason, didn't get the update until now. Thanks for commenting!
@@reddroche7447 Unfortunate. Hopefully you’ll find a good DM.
My favorite meta-gaming that I’ve ever done was using Ice Knife against a monster that I knew was resistant to cold damage. I knew that the monster was resistant, but my character didn’t and I was playing my character!
The funny part was when I told the DM that after the session and he said, “I’d forgotten that they were resistant to cold.” So I got the full damage anyway!
I remember when my friends and I first got into D&D. I will admit I was probably a “meta gamer” but it was because I’ve played many strategy video games and none of them were very strategically inclined. I also came into the learning D&D with a VERY video game-y mindset so it took a while for me to be able to shut that off and separate player knowledge from character knowledge and let my friends learn battle field strategy
I recently adopted a new methodology I like for rules lawyering. Try not to interrupt more than twice a session. Save other cases for after the game. Write a note so if you forget, you can review your notes to remind yourself to discuss with the GM after the game. You might also want to consider only interrupting for big differences in outcomes. This does not mean you let the little stuff slide by forever, you just wait till after the game. It is also very helpful if you have page references ready when you bring up the case.
Cody, great video…but you’re wrong. The worst players are the ones that are none of these. The ones who don’t know the rules, don’t know their character, don’t take notes, don’t know what’s going on in the game, and wouldn’t think to try to fudge a roll because they JUST. DON’T. CARE. Yeah, all of the above you listed are sins - ones we are all likely guilty of to some degree at some time in our gaming lives. But the players who have never done any of these…I’d take any one of the above over them. Why? Because they are redeemable, and *want* to play the game. That dude who asked the GM to make them a character that they then never read, and watch sportsball on their device while the party is a life-or-death battle with the BBEG? They are the worst.
Finally.....these lists of worst players and DMs are silly. Like you all those flaws are redeemable. But someone who doesn't know how use their shape change as a druid after 11 games is not.
The screamer : Whenever they are dealt damage from at least 1 attack. They start panicing because they lost 3 hit points on a total of 58 and they're sure they're going to die.
I had a habitual cheater in one of my sessions that was a close friend. After many "gentle" attempts to correct the behavior, the entire party had to sit down with her intervention style to discuss how to move the game forward in positive ways and get rid of bad habits moving forward. Props to my players for also discussing things they could do to get rid of their bad habits, so as to not make the cheater feel singled out.
IT DIDNT WORK.
She threw a $*%tfit and went on to drag every party members name through the mud to anyone who would listen, all the while claiming she did nothing wrong.
All this to say: great video, and heed the advice to deal with these problems as soon as you can, because when a player develops/shows signs of being multiple types on this list, especially the cheater, kick them the hell out!
It’s because of people like that I am a rules lawyer. Had similar cheating happen with a couple players out of a large group. Shortly after we didn’t have a group.
For power gaming, this can happen as a surprise to the player. Specifically it was a surprise to me when I choose Lore Bard and took counterspell and Fireball - and I happened to obtain a broom of flying as well. We were playing AL so the DMs could do nothing to stop me. Didn't even mean to be super powerful, I just happened to fall into an extremely powerful build.
I'm running a twilight Cleric now which I choose because I thought it fit the setting - Wild beyond the Witchlight. The channel divinity breaks the game over its knee and I didn't realize that before I choose the class.
Not sure what to do about it. I'm trying to emphasize his fishing background over combat prowess - but we just did two encounters in a row where zero party members took damage.
The biggest epiphany I ever had with TTRPGs was when someone told me, "yes, but your character does not know that," and it dispelled meta-gaming for me forever. It was a real "Eureka!" moment for me
Every TTRPG player needs to have one of those moments, imo.
What do I do if I (as the dm) have reminded a player several times that their character would not know this, and they continue meta gaming? I feel like whatever I say is just going in one ear and out the other
Being a DM myself I find very difficult not to lightly metagame when I play. If I see a monster that have resistance/immunity to fire do I use my fireball anyway and call "I know but my character doesn't"?
How can I not wast resources without bringing my knowledge to the table?
I don't think I've ever used a monster straight from the manual. They always have something added or changed just so "passive meta gaming" is impossible... just ran a werewolf that has electrical powers instead of the bite giving them lycanthropy it paralyzed them
I agree that cheaters shouldn't be on the list because it's just a given. Boot them. For my list, my #4 would be the Tantrum Thrower. They're the ones who pout and cross their arms, saying "I don't know why I even play" when you say "no" or try to reason with them when they throw out the most convoluted and ridiculous game plan. It's not even in the same plane of existence as a Matt Mercer "You can certainly try." It's just not going to happen, and the suggestion itself made you feel like you lost a few IQ points. But those people thought it was perfectly sound, and now they're pouting like a toddler, crossing their arms, and sitting away from you. They might even get up and leave the table to go play on their phone for a while because all you'll do is criticize them if they keep playing, and maybe they'll just go home instead. If they're really upset, they'll hop around and use their whiny voice.
For me, that Tantrum Thrower was also the Power Gamer AND was the Spotlight Hog. It was really bad.
I have the problem, that I become an unwanted rule lawyer at the table, when the GM is actually not prepared or doesn't know the rules.
Because he gives regulary advantage to players they don't possess. (Give them class features of other classes or even legendary weapons (self designed and.not aware that they possess legendary weapons stats and do not see the problem)
Or disadvantage to other players because he didn't know that their character had that skill, which would end a fight or a puzzle.
Or he even denies spells for example suggestion, because he doesn't like how the spell works and denies it regularly and say don't use this kind of spells, it distroys my game.
That makes it sometimes really hard to stay motivated as a player and triggers my inner rules lawyer.
How would you handle the situation?
Well, I just noticed I‘m every single one of them when I‘m a player.
That is exactly why (when I decided I want to play dnd with my friends) I am the DM most if the time. Then every problem that could arise from me being wayy to addicted to attention can just be refocused on me being the one that is creating a fun game for everyone and I‘m not in competiton with my friends.
The unprepared. I don't mean inexperienced, I mean the player who's played before, plays a spellcaster and doesn't read their spell descriptions so they try and cast hellish rebuke as an action and then roll to hit
The worst players i've had to deal with are
1. I had player who was constantly trying to screw over the other players by taking items and at times attacking npcs and the party
2. A player who was very indecisive, they didnt do much out of combat, and in combat they took forever to make their next move
Any suggestions on how to improve their gameplay?
For the first player, I had them get arrested because they were attacking npcs in a heavily guarded city. But I felt like that was very unfair towards the player and the party because they didnt want to go along with that plotline
For the second player, I usually would just remind them of the things they could do in combat until they settled on an action, but that could end up feeling like im suggesting exactly what they should do
Thank you SO much for this video! Another problem player that was technically covered by your "metagamer", is the player who reads the module along with the game, a week ahead, so that they know what's coming and what will happen. I liked your reference about how the "first time" experience only happens once. It's like watching a movie for the 2nd time. I have a player in my group that, after being asked at least once not to do so, has continued to do so. His actions and choices telegraph every time that he knows the story, the map, the motives... it's getting out of hand. It's just nice to know that others do not enjoy this play style either. I don't understand how that can be fun for some people. He doesn't gloat about his knowledge, so I don't think he's motivated by that. But others who are new to the game, are watching his actions and taking queues from him. So when he won't go into a room, they won't either because "there must be some reason he won't go in." It's time to call it out at the table.
I feel bad because while I don't TRY to metagame and I play dumb in character, there are definitely many times when the DM describes a monster and I catch myself thinking or even asking out of character (the DM knows I'm not gonna deliberately exploit weaknesses in game) if this javelin-armed pale aberration is The Lonely or if the flaming wolf is a Hellhound, which I can see ruining the immersion for others just to sate my curiosity or test my knowledge. I've read most non-campaign or setting books cover to cover and I'm usually the DM, so I admittedly know more than I should.
Man, your beard looks amazing. Nicely done.
Great stuff Cody! As always
I am the power gamer… Though I make a cool character concept first, then make something wildly powerful with the concept I made (such as, say, an Eladrin bard with a sword that contains the soul of his great great Archfey grandfather, the build being a Hexblade 5/Swords Bard 6 with Darkness+Devil’s Sight+Elven Accuracy+Double Bladed Scimitar).
This lets the DMs I play with throw some crazy stuff at the party (which I can generally help the party deal with very well).
I’m also a Rules Lawyer, and I say stuff that goes in the party’s favor *and* bane (such as when my character I had played for about 2 years died, and the battle had ended which means they shouldn’t be able to be revived [RAW, in the specific OSR system], I just told everybody that they died fair and square, and that a med kit just shouldn’t be able to get used RAW).
Power gamers: I have no problem with power gamers. Making characters who are good at combat is something players should do.
I tend to be my group of friends always DM. My buddy, we'll call him Jonathan, will continually, as soon as I mention the monster that he has only found out existed 5 seconds ago, will pick up a s die and without asking me say "I'm rolling to see if I know if this is a xyz monster'. I once had to explain to him why a farmer, until a month ago, who didn't even know that mind flayers existed, didn't know anything about such a creature making me feel bad for him wasting a nat 20
I have a call for aid for the Spotlight Hog. I’m playing in a D&D campaign and have unintentionally become the “main character”. It’s to the point where the party defers to me/my character for overall party/plot decisions, one player requested to kill off their character to create a new one that respects/follows my character, and three players have said they honestly just want to watch what my character does.
I’ve tried to remove my character from the decision making process multiple times by having him leave the room/area, do something stupid (I have an 8 Int), or just blatantly say “I’ll go with whatever you all decide”. I’ve also talked with the other players and told them that I’m satisfied with my character’s development arc, so if the party wants to go a direction that opposes the morals of my character then I’m more than happy to play a new character and let them either kick out or kill my old character. But the other players and the DM have said they view my character as the main character and enjoy watching what I do and then joining in themselves. It seems like I’m the only one who doesn’t like this arrangement. How would you recommend handling this? I’m still having fun and so are the other players. Should I just get over myself and embrace this since the campaign is almost over?
As a DM keep track of which skills each character is proficient in and ask that/those characters are the ones that check/do the thing. Helps keep all players involved.
I always enjoy your approaches and hearing your point of view
What's it called when a person points out error in rules regardless of whom it favors? I frequently remind other players to make concentration checks or point out that they can't use a magic item and attack.
What about the rules lawyer spotlight hog? I got one of those. Makes it tough but we still manage to have a good time for all
I'm typically the "most experienced" player at the tables I play at. I try really, really hard to not be a rules stickler when DMs are doing things on the fly, or maybe don't know the rules or mechanics as much or as readily as I do. The biggest thing I've tried to learn lately is to be the "anti-spotlight hog" that you mentioned. I have been making a point to urge other players to use their strengths (in-game and in-character) to help the party. "I think you're probably the best suited to lead us through this forest" or "maybe you could have a look around, you're pretty attentive". It's really fulfilling and honestly more fun to see others shine and get excited about the game/their character in those moments. And the game functions and flows better!
So I have a question about meta gaming. Because in our game all of us are players and DMs and we know just about everything, and I've got to say that it's hard to role play being surprised that a given enemy we fought numerous times over numerous campaigns has resistance A or devastating effect B after an attack. How could we make things feel more engaging/fresh without alienating the enemies with obvious weaknesses or strengths? (i.e being surprised that fire doesn't work on a red dragon)
My first idea would be to change the stats of the monsters. I do that a lot. At my group, when we have encounters, they first test out, what kind of a monster I have created, instead of going straight for it. - I would not change it in a way, that it would be completely different type of monster, just enough that they can't be sure. For example, adding a 3 attack or give the monster an extra resistance.
My second idea for the players: I play a sorcerer and if we don't get any information about the encounter, my sorcerer has his go to strategy he is using. Of course he adapts, but he will always go for his Strategies, which worked good in the past. By doing that, I avoid sometimes doing the right thing and.try to get some hints from the dm, which my sorcerer than can use to adapt. That is hard, but also a lot of fun.
You could make a random ability chart for monsters and have the DM roll on it for various abilities and resistances. You don't need to do this for every monster, but if the DM just does it for a handful here and there it will put the party on their toes constantly. Are those just regular goblins? Or did they happen to roll fire resistance and paralyzing arrows? This isn't really any different from just homebrewing your monsters, but hopefully if you've already got the table laid out, the DM can just make a few rolls and figure out it quickly.
This kind of gives me an idea of a kind of non-meta metagamer, where you play a scholarly type who has multiple tomes on reference. They don't necessarily know everything, but if a combat starts with an unfamiliar enemy, imagine them hurriedly flicking through their tomes trying to find a weakness as the other players hold it off. Some things would also be completely unknown and the scholar seeks to document them, adding their own additions to the in world scholarly literature.
We have a group that's been playing since the 1990's and we just have unwritten rules that we have all agreed upon over the years that take care of these issues. When the occasional new player joins we tell them up front that it's group rule, and not "us against the DM". The one issue we have had is the one player who spends 15 minutes deciding what to do, only to do the most basic thing, like throwing a cantrip, or hiding, etc. We make them lose their turn so they're ready next round. i.e. 1 hour battles to beat 4 goblins gets old.
I don’t have a problem with power gamers, rules lawyers, or mete gamers. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play a competent character. D&D characters are supposed to be badass heroes. Knowing the rules is also a good thing. I find players that don’t know the rules at all more disruptive than people that do. In a game that has rules its impossible not to metagame. Knowing that a monster is immune to fire and then casting fireball at it does not make for better storytelling, its just frustrating.
What can I do when a game I just joined has literally a holy barbarian paladin power gamer who is also a rules lawyer
I definitely can be a rules lawyer at times.
In one game specifically, I argued small player races have the same carrying capacity as medium player races, damage a barbarian resisted is rounding down, Danger Sense does not just work for attacks a character has been hit with before, Grappling does not automatically end Rage, describing an attack does not cost an object interaction, Grappling is an attack, not action.
9:19 "Frank the Rules Lawyer"
I feel called out. Not just because my name is Frank, but because I rules lawyer the other players at the table when their power build is out-shining mine...
These problem players often overlap too I've noticed. Someone I play with is something of a rules-lawyer/spotlight hog hybrid, where they will interrupt other characters doing their thing to point out rules and so on, so that even when it's not their round in combat or they're not leading the current moment, they're still the centre of attention. They would also pick up every little rules detail about other peoples' turns/actions as well: i.e. if a player and DM are discussing something they'd chime in to explain why the rules say they can't do that or to point out other factors that would make it harder, so that that player would fail and they could remain the only successful one in the party...
Honestly, they're getting better, so it was probably just inexperienced excitement but man it was difficult to play with.
I think I fall into the rules lawyer subclass, "The Bookkeeper" I like keeping track of game states, and bringing up rules that aren't known, sharing spell effects, or weapon effects. I don't ever argue if something isn't played RAW. Just as a DM myself know it's hard to have everything on hand or know every rule. So I just share what I can so no one has to waste time looking up things.
Also multiclassed into the power gamer subclass "Best Of The Worst" I like to find weird things to optimize just to see how good I can make something that is bad. But I try to not multiclass build with more than 2 classes and anything I actually play in a game, I make sure it has backstory reasons why the classes and abilities were taken.
I used to be a powergamer. Soon after I was introduced to the game, I went looking for tips/information on how to be "better" at the game, and I ended up on the 3.5 WotC Optimization forums. That's basically where I learned how to play. Took a while for me to break the mindset of needing to "win" the game.
It became a bit of a joke with my friends once I did break free, but it also led me to how I would deal with powergamers when I GM: "You can powergame if you want, but remember, I'm probably better at it than you."
Our GM was running another game for another group, and a couple of the players had started to lean into powergaming a bit. He got exasperated and finally told them, "If you keep this up, I'm going to have Odentin build an enemy for you to fight." They kept it up, and he brought it to me. Apparently what I built nearly TPK'd them, and they scaled back on that attitude.
Every powergamer player I've had since has either taken the challenge, and took some manner of joy in the escalation, or took it to heart and toned down the need to win. In a few cases, they shifted focus to helping the rest of the party with optimization options so that EVERYONE could feel powerful together. Those have always been the most fun games, too.
When I play as a player (mostly forever DM) I tend to throw out, especially if they are taking a moment or two to think on what to rule, "i believe I know the rule for that if that would help, but if you want to rule it some other way, totally fine." Or I just ask genuinely if that's a house rule they like compared to the official one. Most often the DM goes, "oh, there's an official one? I didn't know that. Let's do that instead." And if not it's all good. (These are all things I clear with the DM before hand, and it doesn't come up a lot). Most often the DM will just ask if I happen to know the rule for X off the top of my head
I'm playing an Eberron game now with some shy people and I end up feeling like a Spotlight Hog in every interaction with the NPCs.
We had a cheater that would roll more than one dice at the time and then say that it was a certain die he was actually using, he just like to roll more than one die at a time :/
I think an important thing for meta gamers to keep in mind is: youre not playing to win, youre playing to create a story.
a lot of comedic and memorable events, a lot of funny interactions, a lot of twists and special moments are born out of failure and/or derailing the story a bit.
failing isnt something that should be avoided at all costs, it's what makes your game unique.
You forgot the attached gamer: he is too attached to his character that he will not go into an adventure the DM has prepared(in case he knows beforehand there is going to be a high CR creature like a Dragon) in fear of his character dying off.
He may even "threaten" to not bother joining the party again for a future session in case that happens.
Awesome stuff man, nailed it.
I am all of the first 4. I fight my nature and usually win against it, but it is always there, lurking under the surface. But it is not because I want to win D&D, but because I am so invested and so immersed in the fun that I read and memorize every book and supplement. Watch every video and listen to every podcast. I then often forget that my character doesn't know everything that I know. Heck, my DM doesn't even know everything that I know. Very few people are so obsessed. I am the Galadriel of 5e. But I am working at being the Samwise.
Metagamers: for planned encounters I tweak powers, abilities, stats, and spells to accommodate the particulars of the campaign/story that's being explored. Maybe the group is exploring a thick, dark forest full of spider webs and spiders, I'll add a clan of orcs suited for that terrain with freedom of movement capability to navigate and use the webs to suit them, giving them ability boosts in dex instead of str, and poison resist or immunity depending on group level. I'm matching a theme and mood for the story and keeping the players in wonderment at the world, hopefully. For random encounters I usually stick to the defaults in the monster manual, unless I have a better idea on the spot that fits, such as 3-5 wolves for forest terrain and instead use howling spiders with pack tactics instead (to go with the example above).
The way I justify it to players that have a problem with it, go to Google Images and search on the word 'dog' and tell me how many pictures show the exact same breed of dog to represent the animal 'dog'. There is variability to species, some are large, some are short, some are fast or slow, etc... monsters are just as variable, minus specific ones like tarrasques or banshees for instance. There are usually lore reasons why they are the way the are and for the most part I'll observe that.
Our campaigns usually involve some metagaming, but not as badly as the description here. It's usually taking spells or skills that they think the DM can't counter like spells with no save or all anti-undead stuff where the campaign revolves around undead.
I'm my group's Forever GM, and my take on the last point (taking all anti-undead spells in an undead heavy campaign) is looking at whether everyone in the group knows the same info. If I've told all the players "hey, this is going to be an undead heavy game" and someone builds an anti-undead character, that's being a smart player.
If on the other hand, they're working from info not everyone has, like if they recognized the title of a box campaign, or they know the portfolio of the obscure deity who's temple they're going up against (assuming that know: religion checks were either not made or got a 4 or something) and they still do the thing? That's metagaming.
The biggest problem with these players is *they drive away other good players,* people who end up uncomfortable, shoved aside, offended, disgusted, and just have their fun stolen from them.
Of these, the spotlight hog may be the worst to drive good people away. Too often, busy DMs can't see this as it happens, and can think any of these people are just "enthusiastic players."
They are more like *game fun vampires,* sucking and draining the fun and the time away from others.
Regarding the meta-gamer. I use kobold press, dragonix's expanded monster manual and esper the bard's esoterica. Over 1000+ New monster stat blocks.
Best feeling was when my paladin decided to smite a monster, only to realize it was immune to radiant damage, so we went to use necrotic damage only to be noped bc the monster was immune to that too.
The meta gaming you can get spells that allow you to see ahead or through walls so maybe incorporate that but put a complication in.
Im def a power gamer but I don't understand the power gamers who use homebrew content. I like to power game to see what I can do within the system I'm put in. Homebrew takes the fun out of it. But if a dm wants me to not power game (which hasn't happened yet because I play with seasoned veterans who are at best optimizers) then I'll make a fun gimic character who's really good at something useless (like being incredibly good at cooking)
In my experience Rules Lawyers also call out bending or rule of cool in benefit of the party. Its not just in their favor. So everyone ends up not liking them. But yeah just make it clear during session rulings by the DM are final for the session.
I definitely fall into the "power gamer" category. I wasn't always that way, but after a very unfortunate 1v1 I had with my DM that left me feeling humiliated as a player, I decided I wanted to overcome all my character's flaws that made it so easy for my DM to win our 1v1 and rub it in my face. I'm curious though, is there a way to be a power gamer without spoiling the fun for your DM and fellow players?
Other comments on here have some good suggestions (some of which I do myself to temper my own powergamer tendencies) I'll try to summarize;
1) Rather than trying to make the BEST character you can, settle on a concept for a character first and foremost, ESPECIALLY a weird or unusual concept or one that shouldn't work well. Try not to think about how viable the mechanics for that character will be until you've settled on an interesting (and preferably underpowered) character concept, then you can try to optimize that to your hearts content, most of the time you'll find that you're at a pretty good level of power relative to the party and your weird character will be fun to play as well.
2) A good route all-around for an optimizer is to just play a full-support character. Optimize the hell out of a support character and everyone else in the party will still feel like the badasses that they want to be and you still get to know that it's because you built the best support you could.
3) Give your character some fundamental, mechanically-relevant flaw that your DM can then use to temper your effectiveness in combat when/if they need to. If it helps to think about it this way, as an optimizer, you are uniquely able to optimize the aggregate fun for everyone at the table, so think about ways that you can do that, even if it's just giving your DM more tools for their encounter-building toolbox.
4) Consider trying out some more roleplay-heavy systems like Fate or GURPS. Crunchy systems make it easy to powergame but if you spend some time playing less crunchy games, you'll build some good roleplay habits that could help curtail the 'need' to optimize so much.
Re: stealth and metagaming. At my table the players don't roll stealth when they take the hide action, they roll stealth when there is someone nearby to detect them. You can't tell how well you're hidden, after all.
I find myself in the rules lawyer camp more often then i would like to admit but i can at least say i do it on things that negatively impact me just as much as not, i just want consistency. I do not mind tweaking rules and stuff as long as its the same for both monsters AND players. like if we are going to play crits deal max damage plus a bonus dice roll then the monsters need to benefit from that as well to make it fun and fair.
I find myself doing the same. But my reason behind it is that we're playing a game with rules, and those limits should be used to help tell the story.
Run a group with 5 GM's. Had a guy that turned up and would constantly play features and spells that they didn't have and he also only rolled transparent dice with transparent numbers on them. They got banned by each of the 5 GMs 1 at a time without ever changing.
For the spotlighter that has to do everything I follow a coule of simple rules. I either ask other players what they want to do first giving them a chance to go first, taking it in turns or asking the player I think is best suited for the job. Or I ask the super keen player to go first and lock them into that choice. "Sorry, its going to take you a couple of minets before you finish your task, by the time you're done the fighter is getting to the end of conversation with the hobgoblin" allowing the group to have a conversation themselves.
Conversely the spotlighter can have the conversation with the hobgoblin while the fighter (other classes are available) opens the door and finds the potential loot, if the spotlighter trys running off midconversation remind them how rude it is and the potential repercusions of insulting a proud militeristic, honour bound warrior with a large sword, heavy armour and quite a few friends behind him.
This is just an example but i find it works quite well, the 'ol "sorry but its not your turn yet" routine.
You missed the absolute worst problem player type: the constant last minute canceller.
Sure sometimes life happens but when it's a chronic situation, nothing kills a game faster than scheduling drops.
This!! Like when a player drops a text 2hrs before game start "Cant make the game, eating steak at The Keg"
I understand....Steak > Game, but two hrs before the game drops. C'mon dude, seriously!?
@@cellphone7223 Regardless of ones personal preference for steak over game, which 100% depends on both the steak and game in question, a group has scheduled together and made plans. Breaking those plans for things other than emergencies or other exceptional circumstances is pretty disrespectful of your group's time. You're showing that you don't value their time and that yours is more important than theirs. If it's a need someone is cancelling for, that's fine, but doing so for wants isn't.
There is one part of the game that I want to be rules lawyered immediately is spells. The spell does what the spell says. Period.
My group just had to have a little intervention with one of the guys. He has been cheating (fudging rolls, not writing down the right damage taken, etc) for quite a while and is very often a spotlight hog. We often feel like he thinks he's the main character, where 'he should definitely know that new NPC because of his worldly knowledge and infinite social connections', even though we're all lvl 4. In the discussion we had with him, he eventually admitted that all of his behaviors stemmed from the fact that he's new to DnD and the rest of us are more experienced, so he felt that he needed to overcompensate and 'prove his worth' to the group. So, we told him that he doesn't need to prove himself and that we'd respect him more for just being honest and going on the ride with us.
The worst player I've had is one that argued every rule, grinding combat to a halt. What was worse? It was on calls that weren't even his turn. It meant having to stop the flow to look up rupes to satiate his rules lawyering. He'd spring summons on the fly, which can be difficult to just add on a vtt, and I requested anything like that be brought up between sessions so I can set stuff up. Then he didnt like my on-the-fly copy and paste into vtt. He took forever on his turns trying be creative, but ended up being worthless and non contributing to combat or solutions. Openly antagonistic to friendly npcs. And back to arguing my calls. Sometimes I made a call based on behind the scenes info the players aren't privy too just yet, sometimes based on real world physics, but trying to maintain consistency across rulings. And there were times I even agreed with his arguement, changed my ruling to align to his interpretation (which was usually RAW rather that Rule of Cool). And he'd still continue to argue. Turns later he'd still be arguing on how I made a wrong ruling.
Great Video! Nailed! Thank You!
Players that get 10+ levels and still don’t know how their characters work.
So I'm an admitted power gamer. Not for any desire to be the best of a group but to build the strongest/most efficient character I can within my backstory.
I don't mind easy encounters, I just want my character to be able to meet their goals. Cool RP stuff is great! I've however had a weird inverse issue where approximately half of the party builds good characters and plays well, and the other half are useless. The fights turn into nail-biting endeavors. The characters can be fine, but the amount of player error is astronomical. (Sorc not using points in 50+ sessions, druid doesn't know their spells etc) and the DM just tailors the fights to be "doable" if the whole party knew what they're doing. So survival was based on 2 of us basically knowing everyone else's character sheets/spell lists. And doing the equivalent of "don't fireball the monster with 3 players all next to it."
(Edit) when re-reading this I left out some important parts, this was a 0 new player game. 3/5 players were wallflowers and would not engage when encouraged or given obvious ques. The DM encouraged metagaming in session 0 b/c his encounters were so difficult.