How Honda's IMPOSSIBLE Engine BROKE MotoGP!
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- čas přidán 12. 03. 2024
- Back in the early 2000's. Honda made a geniuus engine, that in theory shouldn't have existed!
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Honda has forgotten more 4-stroke technology than most companies have learned
Yeah, and that seems to be their current problem. They have apparently forgotten so much that they're racing mid-pack at best...
@@joe-g1749 hell only Marini finished last race and poor guy was last
@@joe-g1749they are at the back of the grid in motogp.
@@joe-g1749they have the highest sales of all motorbike makers so they’re fine
That’s because they’re cheap and plentiful. Honda hasn’t had any passion for anything, especially performance, since Mr Honda passed. It’s just another Japanese refrigerator maker. It’s sad really. It’s not that they don’t have the capacity, they have no desire/passion. It’s all about the money and/or their “aversion to taking risks” culture.
Perhaps Honda should get ANGRY again and perhaps start winning races again?
Who would get angry? Mr Honda isn't there to be angry anymore :(, we need his stubbornness and his passion back, in a place in the company where that someone would have a say in things..
Honda ain't gonna be winnin ANYTHING for quite some time... 😂
They need to pay for a skilled rider first
@@greenmarine5 they were paying top dollar for Marc Marquez, The bike just isn't good. Gotta upgrade the HRC crue
They’re too busy dominating Formula 1, Hypercar, and Indycar.
they should sell a v5
Imagine if they did!
It would be obviously very expensive but on the other hand, there's always been a strong market for exotica like Ducati special editions, MV Agusta and Bimota.
@@keyboarddancers7751yeah but whoever is in charge in Honda doesn't have any inspiration or balls anymore, they've been boring for a decade plus :(
Working on a V4 engine (and the fuel system) is hard enough. My experience with carb boots/ intake runners was tougher than a straight, inline engine or a V twin.
@@rns6889Many manufacturers are moving away from the inlin4 and V4 layouts, and you are suggesting that they offer a V5? Maybe as a hyper exotic halo bike...
What Honda did with the crank angle to solve the V5 puzzle was genius.
But 5 cylinder engines work well, even in a straight engine.
Like the 2.5L petrol Audi engine in my humble VW T4 Transporter.
With petrol engines between 2 and 3 liters. A four gets too rough, and a six gets too long.
Five works. With the caveat of fuel injection.
Trying to get a straight 5 run with a single carb is damn near impossible.
and volkswagen has a v5 engine if i am correct couuld be wrong or its vr5
@@8alakai8it's a VR5 and VR engines aren't the greatest. A VR6 is pretty good when boosted. But N/A they really suck
when does i4 ever get too rough?
@@glennverdeyen5685what do you base your opinion on?
@@judod97 it's not an opinion ist facts. VR6 R32 and R36 all have weak power stock. Maxing with the R32 at 250hp en the R36 a little more. These power levels are pathetic. As a 1.8T with a stage one tune makes 250hp. And absolutely destroys a R32. Then you have fuel consumption which on the VR6 is insane. And the newe engines aren't that much beter. The cilinderhead and the way it is designed is just bad as 3 cilinders have a way longer runner.
But throw some boost at these engines and they make decent power. These are real known facts
I think some Honda engineers lay awake at night coming up with these things while their competitors are comparatively lazy or less skilled.
In the old days of real engineers with purpose, yes. Now there are mostly software engineers and programmers with no one to design/build anything other than video games and pseudo-intelligent AI.
@@joe-g1749 Totally agree. I'm 67 mechanical engineer and what I see is young engineers searching their solutions on Google or AI instead of lighting their own mind power. Seems the brains are asleep. More confortable I guess. The best clue is the new manufacturing process which are as expensive as the stupidity of the design. Thinking about conception is also thinking about manufacturing. But actual engineers dont care about this cause most of them dont know anything about machining. The result is a huge garbage and tons if ships...pathetic
Oval Pistons with 2 connecting rods per piston. Remember??. Incredible that those even ran as long as they did.
That was not this engine!
A 5 cylinder had the same weight limit as a 4 when GP went to 990cc
At that time it was also not as much about fuel conservation and the max tank size was quite generous, they didn’t want half the field running out of gas on the last lap in 2002.
My guess is everyone assumed a five was not practical but Honda (and later Team KR) did it
Team Proton KR couldn't get their engine to work reliably and ended up leasing Honda engines, which worked out better for them. KR JR ended up getting a podium after they got Honda engines. He might have even won that race if he had remembered the difference between the white and chequered flags.
I was coming on to point this out. All other cylinder numbers had their own weight minimum. 2 cyl had the lowest weight minimum, 6 cyl(the upper limit) had the highest. 3 cyl was different than 4 cyl. But, mysteriously, 5 cyl was the same as 4. Hmmmm. And Honda just so happens to come out with a 5 cyl. Crazy.
so the reason why they didnt go with v6 is because they can get a lighter engine? interesting@stk0308
@@jwork5680 6 cylinders had the same weight limits as 4-5 cylinder using oval cylinders (155kg) which was 10kg more than the 4-5 round cylinders. A huge difference.
Considering some of Honda's multi-cylinder mini monsters from the 50's & 60's, the only surprise is that it wasn't a V10 that revved to 25k+...
Remember the 2T NS500 that won the 500cc championshp was a V3.
Be interesting to throw 500cc Direct Injected 2-Strokes into the mix but I doubt we'll ever see that.
Good info, thanks.👍
DI adds weight and complexity. The things that 2 strokes are supposed to be, a DI 2 stroke isn't. BRP tried it with their ETEC line of 2 stroke engines, and look where they ended up. It was less expensive and lighter weight to buy a comparable 4 stroke. And generally speaking, also more reliable.
Honda also raced with an oval pistoned V4.
1979. Known as the OX. It was 500 cc It required 2 connecting rods per piston and had 8 valves per cylinder.
@@nelsonbergman7706 NR500
Very nicely done mate. Subbed.
At 2:52 describes using common crankpins while the image is of individual crankpins. Couldn't stop myself from pointing this out.
May have missed that one good spot :D
I went into the comments to see if someone else noticed it too, also at 5:01 - 5:07 when he talks about the balance of a 90° V4 he shows a V engine with a different bank angle to demonstrate it
That was a great breakdown. At the beginning I tried to imaging how I would do it. I wasn't even close.
Amazing engineering, good video explaining it all, thanks
Recently discovered your channel and man this is a goldmine
Thanks! Glad you liked the video :)
I miss when Honda still made innovative and experimental designs...
And now I know about this V5, I need on in my life
During that time Aprilia ran 3 cylinder engines built by Cosworth, using F1 tech. They, the RS Cube, were the first GP bikes with ride by wire and pneumatic valve train and were considered the most powerful engines on the grid. However the electronic rider aids weren't nearly developed enough and the Cubes were extremely difficult to ride and also had other issues, one caught fire and tried to cook Colin Edwards.
That was because the fuel cap wasn't secured and fuel spilled on to engine/exhaust.
Human error rather than mechanical
Interesting video but Honda's withdrawal from GP racing in the 60s (both 2 and 4 wheels) was not due to rule changes but the enormous drain on the company's resources and a need to prioritise efforts for normal production of products to sell. The company had by then achieved its objectives in establishing a strong global reputation for their engineering prowess.
They should build a 2+4 stroke engine combined. Two 250 cc cylinders running 2-stroke and three 330 cc cylinders running 4-stroke. On the same crankshaft.
I may be wrong on this but didnt they have a 5 cylinder back in the 60s? I think it was a 250 and the RPM range was insane.
Six cylinder
Love the video!😁😁
Can you please tell me which simulation is that when Doohan rides a 2T Rothmans Honda and is there an editor available for it?
V.Z.
Hey Vlad, this was filmed on MotoGP 2021 the game :)
Imagine a 750cc or 990 two stroke engine - would be interesting to see in comparison regarding the power this might generate with the new technology like anti-wheeling and traction control
Did not mention how good the V5 sounds.
I believe minimum weight regulations played a role too; going to a V6 would have raised the min. weight (undoing some of the power advantage) but going to a 5 allowed them to keep the same weight as the 4-cyl while getting the benefit of the added piston, ie. best of both worlds
that makes alot of sense now, no wonder they went all of that
nice video. I do wish Honda still ran a v5
Unbelievable, fun, and thorough review. Peace
How about the NR motor? That was truly bizarre
It had to be in order to try to match the power of the 2-strokes. It was essentially a v-8 cleverly packaged as a V4 (IIRC, cylinders were limited to 4, hence Honda's decision to put 2 pistons together to create an oval-piston V4)
There may be a point you are missing. I had read that since Honda was racing a v4 in WSB and had been for a very long time, they had complete knowledge of its advantages. No one else had a v four. If you take the v-750 ( RC45) and add a 5th cylinder you basically get the 990cc moto gp engine. I know its not that simple but Honda had decades of v four engineering behind them.
That's an interesting observation, and very likely what really played in there. That would also have meant they could reuse a lot of the same race parts they already were making for the other league, thus driving relative costs down.
@@jpdj2715 except manufacturers are not allowed to use production (WSBK) based parts in prototype (MotoGP) engines.
Doug Hele designed a V5 for Triumph back in the 1960s - 70s. I am pretty sure he knew what he was doing.
How about the honda st1100 and st1300 abs tourer bikes ....
Obviously square pistons would be more compact, what could possibly go wrong..................?
So why did they stop racing it? Rule changes?
Yes. In the 990 era, 4 cylinder and 5 cylinder were allowed the same weight restrictions. In 2007 capacity was reduced from 990cc to 800cc and the weight restrictions were modified and it was no longer an advantage to try and run a 5 cylinder.
After Honda with Mike Hailwood destroyed every other bike manufacturer on the inline 6, in the 60s, the rules were changed to "engines will have less than 6 cylinders". Not sure if this is still the case.
“My boy is wicked smart” 😉
Seems to me a V4 would have a rocking couple unless the middle 2 pistons were on the same bank and the outside 2 on the other. If this were the case then there will be a gap between the other banks outside pistons, may as well stick a 5th piston in there.
You are correct, a "traditional" V4 has a slight rocking couple vibration. Honda did make a street bike V4 with a 2 throw crank that had the back cylinder con-rods mounted on the inside (allegedly to give a narrower cylinder block between the knees) and the front cylinder con-rods mounted in the outside (allegedly to give a space between the front cylinders for the front wheel, thus allowing the engine to be mounted further forward in the frame). This type of V-4 would have no rocking couple...
Looks like Honda has very aggresive R&D but conservative in marketing. I've heard they have one of the biggest R&D budget in industries.
Yes, they indeed likely have more budget than ALL OTHER Japanese brands combined. The European teams found a way to access the budget of others'(Audi), plus they do everything with "passion". The last time Japan attacked something with passion, they island country was literally destroyed and rebuilt by those very destroyers. Anyway, they(Honda) haven't yet realized how badly they suck in all forms of racing. Suzuki realized they didn't have the desire(passion) or money to design competitive machinery and bailed out. Yamaha will eventually fold unless they take a leap.
As anyone would know , the reason for the 500 two stroke and 990 four stroke is both engines are really the same size ! Since a 2 stroke fires twice as often a 500 cc two stroke displaces the same amount of air as a 1000 four stroke firing twice as often ! Just like they still call a Mazda rotary 13b a 1.3 litre but in reality it moves 3.9 litres , as it runs on a different cycle , a rotor is a triangle , each side of a triangle displaces 650cc X 3 X 2 rotors ! Mazda is cheating , it's only counting one 650cc side of the rotor and one side 650cc on the other making 1300cc , fake it's like having a 5.0 V8 but only counting the 2 cylinders that are firing and so 1300cc and leaving out the other 6 cylinders ! Point is a 500 cc two stroke 4cyl fires the same amount of times at say 3000 revs as a 1000cc four-stroke 8cyl. And moves the same amount of air in both !
Nah, no V5... Give us back the CBX
Rpm makes horsepower displacement makes torque
Power = torque X rpm. As you can see from this formula, torque and power are two sides of the same coin (related by RPM)...
Hos yes the V5 compare to crtossplane crank motors? Seems liokle the cpssplane does what the V5 .
Another power pulse is not the full advantage (if any advantage at all). More and smaller pistons do two things: More valve area that give more air in and more power out. Smaller pistons also means shorter strokes and higher revs, again creating more power. This is something Honda had done before with their 5 and 6 cylinder 4 stroke engines in the 60's.
The rulebook for the start of the 4 stroke erea was largely dictated by the most influenceable manufacturer, Honda. They had their 5 cyl engine on the drawing board before the rules were set and sneaked in a very important rule; No weight penalty for 5 vs 4 cylinders. (up to this point there were a weight penalty for each added cylinder). I think that went under the radar because who would be mad enough to make an Inline 5 and a V5 was almost unheard of. The engine were a ganious construction but they had this planned and pushed those rules according to the plan.
Sounded like you said V4 engines share the same crank pins yet the animation you used sure looks like each rod was on its own pin....no? 2:50 Oh wait are the crank pins much more than pins in that animation? Is each one a Z kinda thing staggering the rod positions on the two rods? Rather than straight pins with both con rods sharing identical axis well exactly like each pair of rods do in your animation of the V5 3:06
At 2:53 the pistons DO NOT share the same crank pin!
Awesome! Superbly explained 👍👏👌
HONDA; Had One once, Never Do it Again....
While saying pistons on oposit sides share a common pin, a graphic shows them on seperate pins?!?!?! (min 2.58)
The rc211v was the finest MotoGP bike ever produced.
Didn't VW also make a V5? Not sure why they did it.
In the 60's Honda produced more power by adding cylinders to their bikes.
Bring back the blue-smokers
I own an ST1300 V4. Incredible bike. A touring bike that is also a crotch rocket.
Does any street bike uses V5?
No
@@bigtitmaster :-(
The Dream Engine!!!
I wonder how that would feel in a road bike
Insane I imagine
Honda online 6 has perfect primary and secondary balance, but it's way to wide. So if Honda could do a 3 cylinder side block, why don't they, or others make a V6 engine so it'll have again, both perfect primary and secondary as well? By his logic, it wouldn't be too big as was the issue with the inline 6.
I'm no expert on MotoGP so I could be a bit wrong in this but typically these sorts of things are driven by the rules. Teams could have made V6s but they would be given a higher minimum weight. Twins could run a lot lighter. 4s had to be heavier but not as heavy as the 6s. The V5 was allowed to run at the same weight as the 4s.
A V6 should be awesome
Big two stroke race bikes are just too violent in their power delivery with tiny all or nothing power bands. Winning on one took geniuses like Rossi, Doohan, Rainey, Roberts.
...and Randy Mamola
Ironically if they had the electronics and tires like we do today they would be much easier to ride close to the limit.
….Gardner, Schwantz, Lawson, Spencer, Uncini, Lucchinelli, Sheene, Read, Agostini,…..
i have a question, why didnt they create a v6 instead? i know the v5 worked out but im actually super curious why? is it something in the rules? or honda just want to do something crazy lol
The weight restrictions for a 4 cylinder and a 5 cylinder were the same in the 990 era. They would have had to run a heavier bike with a 6 cylinder.
all of this was due to regulations weight limits were the same for 2 and 3 cylinders and for 4 and 5 cylinders
I don't know much about MotoGP but I thought they can only use bikes that are in production , I don't think Honda sells the RC213
Moto GP is not a production based series. More like the F1 equivalent for motorcycles.
@@alexprymack7834 I thought the rules are they must use a stock platform
MotoGP is a prototype class
I remember VW using a V5 I just read 1997-2005?..balance issue to solve there too and yet they still did it LOL WHY?? ?? Just for less parts? Anyone know here? Oh also Audio....which may have been basically same motors IDK Anyway Honda did not actually steal from Germans as I read the VW "V" was almost a straight 5...but it is a Vee because there is a 15 degree difference....so close they could still use ONE head for all cylinders! Meaning I imagine many did not even realise they were even looking at a Vee engine lol....WTH??
Nice presentation but you missed the team reason why Moto GP went 4 stroke. 2 strokes are less efficient and more polluting, not achieving a full burn of the fuel air mixture before expelling some of the unburnt fuel it of the exhaust port. 4 strokes achieve a much higher burn rate of pretty much %100. This means that two fold if Moto GP went 4 stroke it would be a cleaner sport, but more importantly 2 strokes were being ruled out of manufacture for the road by emissions regs. So the manufacturers wanted to race 4 strokes like the 4 strokes they were building for the road.
It's really about that last point, I doubt they gave 2 figs about the emissions.
@@memitim171 Ironic that DI 2 Strokes are more efficient and cleaner than 4 strokes but here we are. Honda was the main driving force in migrating the sport away from 2 Strokes.
@@pierrebroccoli.9396 DI (statified charge ignition) engines aren't more clean than simple homogenous charge ignition engines (multipoint injection), let alone 2T bikes with unavoidable "valve" overlap. I agree with OP about rules being changed with environment in mind, not to meke racing bikes environment friendly, but to transfer experience gained in racing to production bikes.
@@laimonasmusauskas1153 The EPA with 2T DI engines would disagree when it comes to marine outboard engines for lake usage in the US.
Then again I have heard of Carb alterations for 4T engines getting 200 miles to the gal on a V8 back in the early 70's but that wasn't good for business.
What I do miss myself with the 2T is being on the Pipe. That and the light weight and simplicity of the engines. It resonated well with me and although you had to swap out the rings at regular intervals - it wasn't that complicated.
You simply couldn’t get anything else out of a 500cc two stroke …they hit the wall on development
Can Honda beats Ducati down with this V-5 engine?
I might be a little off because I don't have the exact years , but didn't : Rossi , Burgess , and Yammee , throw your's and Honda's theories out with their evolutionary ( ha-ha ) inline 4 ,,, ?
I love your channel and nerding out about engines and racing.
Personal nitpick though: those huge flashing text overlays annoy me to no end.
I understand why you do it, but my god just show me the clips without flashing huge text over it. Or put it under at least.
Hope you don't mind the feedback 🙈
Do you have any metrics on how many people watch with sound off? Curious...
Feedback is good I take everything on board. It's done to try and emphasise a point but I'm keen to try other things :)
Some four cylinder 2-smokers for snogo's are making near 400 hp. Think about that.
400hp over the last 200 rpm? no thanks
@@seanbirtwistle649bro, they aint bmw touring bikes, nobody cares about the Power range in motogp
@@frederikbalz8978 no? put a 400hp 4 stroke against a 400hp 2 stroke and i bet you no one rides the 2 stroke
@@seanbirtwistle649 but in a race theres a max volume of the engine, and a 2 stroke makes more power
@@frederikbalz8978 power isn't everything in a race
Who was V4 in ‘02?
Suzuki GSV-R
Ducati also ran a V4, but didn't enter the series until 2003
How the mighty have fallen.
Comes around goes around. Stick around.
they wil be back again beliefe me
I don't think the engine is the problem on the Honda.
@@gbone7581 The lack of rear grip they keep complaining about could be an engine issue. They never got their engine working properly with the new regulations since 2016
@@mignik01 I doubt it is just one thing, if it was they would have figured it out by now!
It's to bad Honda hasn't had a good rider since Nicky Hayden, in addition Honda has put allot into Formula1 the last 2 decades
Marc Marquez?
@@gbone7581 oh yeah that guy...6 time World Champ
It's still unbeatable
What happened to Hondas out of round piston engines?? I believe they were oval!!!???
outlawed in the regulations
Before we go into that, I want to tell the history of the world. Bye.
So why for there stop usnh yhr V5? Man! That should've been an obvious thing to say at th nd.
Rules change in 2007 (pretty much) forced all manufacturers to 4 cylinders (with a maximum displacement of 800cc). Another rule change in 2012 also (pretty much) dictated 4 cylinder engines in the premier class.
How is a V5 "a different direction ENTIRELY" lol "entirely would be running a rotary or something not simply 5 rather than 4 cylinders.....just saying
No forgetting their 3 cylinder prototype.. Love the game footage 😂😂
So why did they stop using this fantastic V5 engine?
They changed the regulations to 4 cyl only IIRC
@@michelgarneau7693 I wonder what their justification was for this. Always the FIM seem to outlaw anything that makes the sport more interesting from a technical viewpoint.
@@eventcone As is the case with many such changes, I imagine it was for cost-cutting reasons (or to try to level the playing field for the smaller mfrs)
@@michelgarneau7693they make the Sport boring, i even watch sometimes old series because they are more interesting
@@michelgarneau7693 not initially. They reduced the displacement to 800cc in 2007. The biggest change was a 5 cylinder could no longer compete at the same weight as a 5 cylinder. 4 cylinders were not mandated until 2012 when they went to 1000cc.
So why not a v6?
They would have had to run at a heavier weight with a 6 cylinder. 4 cylinder and 5 cylinder bikes were allowed to compete at the same weight.
RIP 69
The Fan-Boys did it again 🤷♂️
This guy: “a V5 is impossible”
Same guy: “here’s how they did it”
🤦🏻♂️
nothing in existence is impossible. improbable things arent impossible. people are morons saying impossible when things are improbable
Bit of a perspective on what was actually going on here. All this was happening at the beginning of the four stroke era. These engines were being run side by side with 2 strokes and most of the paddock was still running them. On paper the V5 would have the most amount of hp and all manufacturer engineers new this. Budget constraints was the deciding factor on most teams as the majority of them were dealing with the transition from 2 to 4 stroke and many were using both types. There was nothing really genius about the Honda. It is just honda was willing to spend the money.
Cool
Dude heard what primary balance was once and based his whole personality on what he thinks engine balance means
honda is going backwards Ducati have an awesome combustion chamber and aero , yamaha crossplane Honda WtF nothing as a resuly the lose the drive out of the corners and suck at the end of a straight Honda management is representative of the sickness that is japan atm
Impossible, yet another statement which you don't understand the meaning of
D4A has some great stuff, but some very misguided and bias content as well that he gets very aggressive towards viewers in comments when defending his stance… personal experience. Can’t stand the guy anymore. Total lack of class and humility
You should mention that 1000cc 2 strokes engines are not reliable and busted by the heat and lubrication problem. So 1000 cc 2 strokes will be inferior to 1000cc 4 strokes because in 3 laps 1000cc 2 strokes will be malfunction. That's the reason gp 500 used only 500cc 2 strokes. Stop saying no brainer for 1000cc 2 strokes. Kawasaki H2 Mach1 750cc 2 strokes engine is the biggest 2 strokes engine on the road, it is not reliable for prolonged top speed due to lubrication problem and heat, that's why Kawasaki moved to Ninja GPZ900 4 strokes with higher top speed and solid reliability.
Have you never heard of water-cooling or oil injection? It's not the 70s anymore they made 1000+ cc 2 strokes in the 90s bro.
And outboard motors for boats were amazing! V4, v6, even v8 2 stroke engines worked exceedingly well, were lightweight, reliable, smooth, and easy to service. Cheap to build, cheap to rebuild with very few parts needed for the rebuild. Terrible loss to the world that "green idiocy" is dominant right now. Praying for the end of this stupidity.
@novrahadi8568 - where did you get your mechanical engineering degree? 2-stroke engines can be made to be VERY reliable; many 18 wheeler trucks use 2-stroke diesel engines and go 500,000 miles between overhauls; I owned a Suzuki GT750 2-stroke triple that went 55,000 miles with NO maintenance (and was still running strong when I sold it). 1960's era air-cooled racing 2-strokes were prone to heating and lubrication problems, but those problems were a thing of the past by the 1980's.
@@danielklopp7007 the fact: no 1000cc 2 strokes ignition bike engine, ignition bruh. No diesel.
Bro writes whole roman whithout thinking one second about what he is writing
Let's put a V6 in a sports bike
There is a flat 6, how wide did you want your V?
It's been done by Laverda in the past. 🙂
No, I'd prefer an inline six for a sporty street bike, like the cbx of old. They've done it once, I hope they'll do it again. I6 would be too heavy and big for a sport bike.
So how many championships did the 5 banger win???....got it!
HEY JACJASS THEY ARE THE SLOWEST TEAM IN RACING!
Honda are the greatest! It is owned by Mr Honda, who, after WW2, started with nothing and built his company and gave the technology to do all starting with the Honda Cub! My favourite is 4cylinder Honda 4.
And in an issue of, I think Cycle World, in mid1960s Mr Honda said " We have no plans to build anything with more than 2 cylinders". And a short time later they introduce the 4 cylinder line up.
i still like the NR-750 engine more ! check it out yall!