Ringing out monitors using an EQ (analog setup) - Stage Left Audio
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- čas přidán 18. 08. 2012
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Thanks for watching!
** NOTE ** The location of the camera (and its internal mic) is slightly different than the location used to listen to the actual frequencies that are pushed into feedback. Due to physics issues (i.e. the direction the speaker is facing, my location relative to the speaker and the camera, and the location of the camera (and camera mic)) certain audio frequencies may (may not be) picked up by the camera mic. The higher the frequency, the greater the opportunity for the camera to "hear" a slightly different frequencies that what I hear at my location in this video(and vice/versa).
** Please remember ** The setup involved with this video is to get the system to feedback at many various frequencies; the system is setup for education purposes ONLY and is NOT representative of how a system would be setup for an actual LIVE event. Each microphone used in this video is pointing directly at a single speaker.
Thanks for the comments!
Reducing feedback in the monitors takes patience and time. Locating the offending frequencies and reducing them (a little at a time) is the process to ring out a monitor system.
The signal path used in this video is: microphone ... to board ... to aux send out ... to EQ in ... to EQ out ... to amplifier ... to speaker.
The principles to ringing out a monitor system can be applied to ringing out FOH; However, FOH EQ settings should be set sparingly.
The "trick" to good sound... familiarize yourself with frequencies. - Hudba
The best way to detect and narrow down a problem frequency is to select a band and give a little bit of gain, not just guesswork.
Thank you for this tutorial. We have been struggling to get our monitors loud enough for the vocalists and now I know how to , at least, improve the situation. Many Thanks !
You are still ringing because you are missing all the freqs that are ringing. I ran this through my spectrum .
Finally found a video of someone actually using this with full explanations.
The setup is a "lab" format. The mics were positioned about 45 deg. off center from the front of the speaker and sat about 3 ft. away. The whole environment was setup just to cause system feedback; therefore the video is showing how to control it. The channel EQ on the board is flat. There's many ways feedback occurs, but only a few ways to control it - this video is showing one of the ways.
Great tutorial but for the gigging pub band I found the Shure DFR11 EQ does well as it reduces/removes feedback on the fly and it has other features built in if you want to use them, But you can't beat doing it the manual way.
usually octaves feed-back .. notice that 1k, 4k, 250, 500 all feedback .. those are an octave (or several octaves) apart.. granted the setup is designed to provoke feedback. its not a typical way to ring out a system. i tend to eq to taste, then eliminate any feedback if nessecary. other than that. pretty informational and well spoken.
omg he called a fader a "slider" haha. PERFECT.
The numbers indicate how loud, in db, the signal can be (relative to the input level to the EQ). All the db levels #'s on all equipment (including the monitor fader) reference how loud the signal is. The faders should be positioned for what works for you, however, it may best to turn up the monitor fader (especially if the EQ is serially connected) about 1/2 way, and turn the aux pots down. Gain structure is VERY important to getting good sound. I'll try to post a video on this topic.
NICE WORK
Thanks sound engineer
Ringing out of Pa and Monitors, Please go to Allen and Heath Guide to Mix is the Best.
I have to make at first the ega of the slice(edge) or there is a source(spring) (microphone)((microcomputing)) on the mixing desk or to make the ega with the egaliseur then to make the slice(edge) or there is a source(spring) (microphone)((microcomputing)). Thank you
l want a full setup of sound reinforcement and how to eliminate feed back
when u say turn up the volume after eliminating the frequency, do you mean for that channel or the master monitor volume?
You sir, stay away from my board!
Julian Hughes I'm with you... this guy couldn't mix cake batter!
I havn't seen a third octave EQ in a decade, didn't know they still had them
i use the those all the time but know little bout them. What do the numbers beside the monitor fader mean? and where should the fader be on the main monitor slider? should i have it about half way up and then set the individual aux vol pots on each channel? i play in small noisy venues and sometimes loud monitor volume is necessary. I find that if i barely have the main mon fader pushed up and the individ vols cranked high, it sounds choked, airy, and doesn't have much body.Can u please help me?
It depends, but mostly no.
What is running in the background? It has a loud fan
Wow I really wish I had've watched this video alot sooner. I'm a grade eight student, and I did ALL the technical "shizzlefizzle" (as our drama coach called it). We had two pencil condensers (don't know the brand), and four Shure PGX14/30 headset mics, and one, small, stage monitor. I probably screwed up on the mic/speaker placement. I could give a better explanation in a video, so if anyone want's to know more I'll make a video on my channel. Just reply to my comment if you want me to make it.
i think if graphic EQ can't remove that feedback. parametric EQ can take it over
seems unusual to have a crossover not being used so must be passive wedges, pity we cant see the monitor and mic position that we give us a better idea of what you are doing. is the eq on the channel flat, and is the desk used for monitors only
Don't you want to turn up a slider to hear if it's hot and then turn it down enough to eliminate it?
Yes, that is a way to test a channel for feedback; though, that method is usually used only when too much gain is applied to the channel. Reducing the gain of a channel will correct some feedback issues. Reducing the offending frequency to control feedback will yeild better results because it may not require the need to reduce the gain.
you need first to go in + on eq to force and find feedback frequency. after that you go in -.
The frequencies that should have been attenuated on sennheiser are, on this particular eq at least: 250 (a bit above actually), 1.25 (he aimed at 4, than a bit lower, but still too high, at 3.15), 630 (he aimed too high again and then a bit low). Haven't watched the audix part.
I'd like to point out that I'm not sure if I would have guessed the right frequencies by ear on the first try. But I would probably end up rising the bands around the frequencies that I think the tone is ringing at one by one just a little and eventually have landed on the right one. Then I'd just attenuate that one.
But this is like the person in a video said, a mic pointed directly into the monitor speaker, and I don't know if the exact same ringing frequencies would appear during the show. At least in that amount.
These days everyone has a smart phone, and there are apps like tuners and what not which point out frequencies. So I guess that could help in a situation like this. I don't own one so I have to do it by ear every time. And most of the times there aren't any eqs for the monitors. :(
Each room will present different variables for determining which freq. needs to be cut (and for which mic). There are a few freq. that seem to be somewhat consistent in their need to be cut, but not always the same freq. all the time. Thanks for the post.
OK , so how do i connect eq to each channel separately? I do have insets per channel and per group, whats the best method?
+rtt143 An insert for each channel is the best way to connect an EQ; however, connecting an auxiliary EQ to a channel isn't normally conducted unless it's to correct a serious "EQ problem" with the channel. The channel strip EQ is usually enough. If you are needing to EQ a choir or a drum-kit, the EQ should be added to a sub-group that has the mics needing the EQ (i.e. all drums assigned to sub-group 2).
+stageleftaudio you rock!,thanks
+rtt143 Thanks for the comment and good luck!
Yes, a PEQ would definitely work.
what is a PEQ?
This was a "lab" setup--not a real setup, in order to induce feedback and illustrate the concepts of EQing frequencies.
An RTA is so helpfull here...
Good vid, but for the love of Pete take out 315 on the condenser! Haha
The singer in our band likes to get out in the crowd while singing. Is there a way to ring out the FoH speakers so that they don't feedback even when in front of the mains? I've seen at least one video where they talked about ringing out the speakers in this way, but they weren't clear on how they did it.
Ringing out FOH can be done the same way as monitors, however, there is much, much greater chance of having many different freq. feed back. Because of this, it's very difficult to "notch out" offending freq. w/out causing the vocalist to sound different. It's usually safe to reduce 2 offending freq. w/out altering the tone of the mic/singer. Try reducing the mic input gain when the singer starts moving infront of the speakers. Also, instruct the singer to keep the mic pointing directly at his his chest when not singing. This will keep the mic out of of the direct path of the speakers.
stageleftaudio *terrible pun alert* Thanks so much for the feedback. :)
Dydreth stageleftaudio No need to thank him for the feedback... we didn't want any feedback in the first place!
why is amp just a couple of clicks up? ch one gain all the way down
We just needed one channel when setting this up.
This Engineer is WACK! He know nothing about frequencies! 1.6k, 800Hz, and about 300Hz ringing and he's pulling out 125Hz and 8K??? Get it together dude...
Dwain Campbell Yeah! I though I was the only one. That 800Hz was annoying me every second and he never went close to it! Jesus!!!!!!
+Dwain Campbell. ...did you engineer any of the videos that you uploaded on your channel?
+Tiago Matias it wasn't you either..this guy didn't do the best job of explaining it either..none of this is complicated, i've just found so many sound guys make it that way..have been doing sound for mostly Zydeco/Swing/Salsa Bands, and I know i''m not the most knowledgeable guy around, but trial and error generally always works..and just listening..lots of digital boards all have this pre-programmed, but i'm still an old analog holdout..
+dbd1353 The problem here is that, e doesn't do the "try and fail" techniques, he just guesses. The other problem is that, as a sound engineer he is, he has no good ears, he just don't realise the ringing in the background., has no hearing sensibility. I guess his live mixing is not very nice to hear, but hey, it's just a youtube video, I do not know the guy... lol
I play guitar for a "one-man band". There are 3 vocal mics, obviously 3 channels.
Is it necessary that each channel get it's own EQ?
It depends on the number of monitor channels you need. If 3 monitors are needed and each vocal mic needs their own monitor mix, you will want to place an EQ on each channel; EQ's are not always needed, but are a good tool to control feedback.
Yes.
When you are using the EQ just bring the slider to -5db
Is eq place as an insert on mic channel or main out insert mix?
For this setup, the EQ was placed "in-line" between the main output of the board and the input of the amplifier.
Can i use the insert in main output to ring-out foh?
Yes. An insert is usually preferred. Just make sure the cuts are minimal. Too many changes (or heavy cuts) in FOH EQ is usually an indication there's something wrong with the gain/EQ staging in one of (or other) channels. Changing the FOH EQ alters the entire sound system... make sure the cuts are minimal.
@@stageleftaudio I am missing something, if I use the eq as an insert how is it effecting the house or monitors? What is the in and out sequence for my XLRs I guess is what I am asking?
hello everyone,i am an amature d.j. and i been deejaying for over 30 years.MY question is can anybody show me how to correctly hookup my new upgraded d.j. set ? I AM USING a laptop with a hercules dj 4 set controller, a europower 6000 powered mixer broad,2 gemini xga 3000 power amps,4 BEHRINGER B212XL EUROLIVE 2 WAYS and 2 ALTO SX-SUB18 18 INCH PASSIVE SUBWOOFERS AT 800 WATTS. I have try many combonations and have not been able to get all the compoment to work together and faction correctly. help me please if you can. p.s. i also have a dbx 15 and a gemini 15 dual band eq2 .
+willie smith Why on earth are you asking a question like that in CZcams comments? Go find a forum about DJ equipment.
Sorry all, The best way and most effective way to ringing out of the audio systems go to Sound Craft Guide to Mix not Allen and Heath
So were your monitors live in the monitors? Otherwise I don't I don't understand ringing out the monitors from from of house. Sorry if this is a dumb ass question.
+Sean Banks In this video, the monitors were setup in our shop (not a live situation). Ringing out monitors from the house is very common. All you are doing is listening to the monitor speakers (from the house) to hear feedback. However, when ringing out from the house, the very high frequencies (around 2k and up) are hard to notch out because the monitor speakers face the performers (not the house), meaning it's harder to hear the higher freq. at FOH. As well, each monitor channel should have its own EQ to use for ringing out that channel separately other channels.
thanks for the info!
Oh crap. Not another video using GEQ for ringing out. The proper tool (now incorporated in all digital mixers) is PEQ. Even if you're staying analog you should be using PEQ outboard. The techniques are the same, but the tools are better. GEQ is a hatchet. PEQ is a scalpel.
315hz on the 835!!!
2nd freq was 1.5 KHz, 3rd was 750. .......Or....everything was just plain too loud.
That's exactly what the situation was. I kept increasing output till the next freq. started to feedback, notch it out, then add more power. It was all intentional and part of the exercise. Thanks for watching.
buy a qsc system and use good microphones and you won't often have to do this..lol..i have been buying a lot of new gear and Electrovoice and QSC stuff is almost picture perfect with a an SM 58 and some real level. Good videos though..always nice to see some one willing to take some time to teach. a ,lot of people don't appreciate that but I do. i mixed monitors on a pro level..national acts for over 20 years.
it's a hot seat.
HEIL PR 35 would fix 1/2 your problem
This way take too much times
1,25khz makes you all troubles for senheiser :)
Gain structure is far more important than just reducing frequencies. PFL is your friend. If you don't set proper gain on the channel, you'll be fighting various problems all night.
ring these balls
1250 hertz.
Sorry, man, but you used 18:27 of time to explain what could have been explained in about 5 or 6 minutes. From about 3:40 to 18:27 you only showed the EQs and your fingers while you talked in terms that could confuse amateurs. I knew what you meant because I have run live sound since 1981 and have rung out many sound systems.
You might want to edit your video and re-word parts of it so that you won't mis-lead anyone.l
Perry Mike why are you here then watching this? You should make a video showing us your wisdom on the subject then...
A lot of Theory here but you Guys have no idea about what you are doing... This video could be misleading for those who want to learn how to do it the "Right Way" Other than this, why did´nt you Insert the Eq into the Aux Send? & At the end of the Video, you are still getting Feedbacks, simply because you do not know your Frequencies... try Baking bread for a change....
The purpose of the video is to show how to control feedback, but not so much as how to setup a (basic) monitor system. The "monitor out" (Aux send) on the board is run directly into the EQ (and out of the EQ to the amp).
Controlling feedback involves many environmental and technical variables. The video represents a small sampling of some of the variables.
stageleftaudio Sorry, But still you guys did not get it under Control, simply because you do not know your freq´s, e.g. it was constantly feeding back by 400Hz but he was searching by 125 & 250Hz to kill this Freq. Does not matter how your connection is configured.
stageleftaudio I prefer to send my aux outs in-line with the EQ to the amp as well...there's been a lot of concern by audio mixers about 'insert' vs 'in-line'...as long as the cuts outweigh the boosts (if any boosts at all) and the EQ isn't overloading, in-line works great. I like that others post videos so that people who want the info can get as many methods as possible and I like the idea of comparing two mics, just to hear what's what. Good video. Thanks for sharing!