One Trope Plagues The Fantasy Genre | My Brew
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- čas přidán 21. 04. 2024
- Dark Magic is a reoccurring theme of fantasy but do you give it enough thought? What makes magic "dark"? Rather than defaulting to tradition, we should implement our own takes. That's the best part worldbuilding. You get to define how your world operates.
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Imagine fire magic being labeled as dark magic in a setting.
"What? Fire Magic is banned in your homeland? What's wrong with fire magic?! Lighting campfires easily, powering forges, channeling it to heat homes with the power of steam."
"Some wizard a long time ago shot magic napalm out of his hand and set an everlasting fire in the northern mountains that is still polluting the atmosphere to this day."
"Oh."
There was a comic I saw that was parodying a famous fantasy school series and the teacher was explaining why the curse that kills people instantly is bad...so he pulls out a mouse, and uses a levitation spell to drop a rock on it. "See? I can kill things just fine with magic everyone uses all the time! No Unitaskers! It's a bad spell."
accio Voldemort’s lungs!
Or healing spells being used in interrogations. When "good spells" are be used to harm, are they added to the dark list?
@@humblegallipotexactly why i like witch hat atelier, all magic that can be casted to living target is banned. Polymorph? Ban, heal? Ban, teleport? ban
However, using a cloak to appear as something else is allowed, making a device that heal people is allowed, portal is allowed
@@humblegallipot Healer: "you are not dying until i say so....."
I'd argue that what you describe is the difference between a kitchen knife and a sword. You can use levitation for a variety of things, killing being only a single option. By contrast the Curse That Kills People cannot do anything *except* kill people, and has no other purpose. One can sometimes be used for harm whereas the other can *only* be used for harm.
The example in the thumbnail is a frat dissection of this. In Dungeon Meshi, “dark magic” is explicitly just really old and powerful. The danger is less in the magic itself (all magic can be dangerous when used wrong) but in the political powers which ban its use
So it’s less the effects, and more the likelihood of people misusing such power.
So Big Elf is monopolizing powerful magics for themselves?
I don't know how to talk about this without major spoilers but huh... It goes a bit deeper than fantasy racism
There's actually a *very* good reason why elves ban the use of ancient magic. The problem is that they never bother telling anyone else about it, they just arrest everyone who gets involved with it and call it a day. It's precisely because of this that Marcille doesn't know why it's bad.
i agree with trekiros
To be fair, you can absolutely make tangible arguments questioning the ethics of necromancy based on the effects on the living rather than respect for the dead. Disease and public health would be an issue, and even if we assume that can be solved with magic (or some kind of sterilization processing), having a labor market comprised of corpses would probably create a sales market for corpses which would in turn create a business in shady disappearances - essentially a new form of human trafficking.
Oh! So kinda like how there used to be a big industry around sourcing cadavers for use in universities and study - by killing people and selling the bodies as cadavers?
Agreed very creative!, but if the benefits outweigh the dangers people will do it anyway, which in turn adds depth to your fantasy setting.
@@gianniaerts7352 True
And even if those things aren't an issue; it can still lead to other problems. In DND RAW you need to use magic to reassert control over undead raised by most spells every 24 hours or they become hostile to everything.
I actually think this concept was implemented in some dnd fan comic, can't remember the name but you can find it's dubbed video by searching up bucket brigade. They essentially have a necromancer dwarf and his kingdom all about usage of undead labor market.
Having a diverse set of cultures with differing opinions on different topics is always great for fantasy settings.
In my last campaign setting, necromancy was a new field of magic. The practice is soon to outlawed and some mages are unhappy about that.
@@humblegallipot"necromancy is illegal the dead should be respected" my brother in sigmar the undead Egyptians are just petting their giant cats
no, it isnt, this is terrible writing advice. it CAN be great, IF its done well and IF it suits a genre/suits the specific story thematically, but it is not ALWAYS great.
@@Zionswasdi cant imagine a fantasy setting where opinions are diverse amongst different cultures could be harmful
@@Zionswasdduh
If it is done badly, it is bad.
BUT, if it is done goodly, it is good.
I'm General, I believe that's good writing advice. Writers should aim to diversify cultures, opinions, etc. Where appropriate, of course.
If you don't aim to build a world, which would be full of differing cultures and perhaps races, then this advice kind of falls flat.
In Naruto, the shadow clone technique is considered forbidden because most people can't use it effectively without risking killing themselves. This is a pretty common theme in the series, that techniques become forbidden because the cost of using it outweighs the benefits of using it. It also leads to a lot of characters using forbidden techniques because they have ways of offsetting the usual costs that other people don't have.
It takes a minute for the reader to realize that “forbidden” doesn’t mean “bad”, just that it has a lot more baggage than substituting a log.
the thing that bothered me with naruto, especially as time went on, was that there was no way to tell what was a shadow clone and what was a regular clone. or a water clone. or wood etc. clones that are less supposedly dangerous to the user.
@@whitemoonwolf13I think the reason shadow clone was banned is that all of the other clones are using already existing materials, water/mud, while the shadow clone requires massive amounts of chakra to effectively make a new person from the ground up.
I recently watched a D&D podcast that featured a forbidden spell as part of the lore. The spell was for making a cup of tea, but it would physically pull the ingredients to make the tea from an ever increasing radius until the cup of tea was made while destroying anything that got in the way of the process. The spell was banned after it destroyed an entire district of a city.
@@chillyavian7718 Yeah, the intent there is to hint that a lot of people probably have died or keep dying because they keep trying to learn those techniques, which in-turn made the Hokage and the gov ban it from being publicly traded knowledge, however it seems the ban doesn't apply when someone decides to teach the technique to someone because:
A. If the person can't handle it, they will likely die by using it soon or instantly
B. Usually the people who know it know what they are doing
C. Because of the aforementioned conditions above, the knowledge doesn't spread, can't spread easily if there's neither someone alive or someone willing to just spell it out for free at any random bystander.
Also why you don't see people doing the Rasengan technique everywhere, you need a lot of "buffs" from birth or other conditions to handle doing such complicated tasks more than once, and even if the average ninja learns it, they might as well just strap a whole suit of explosive scrolls to themselves and run into the enemy formation because after they use it once, they will be near death or become incapacitated due to Chakra exhaustion which in itself is very lethal, so finishing off might not even be needed by the enemy as you would have suffered a literal critical existencial failure the instant you fully run out of chakra.
That's also why characters like Kakashi don't even bother using it because they know it's inefficient (for them) and why Konohamaru, who comes from a clan of known chakra monsters (Not as much as the actual still living Uzumaki tho) can handle it and the Wood Style techniques. And all combined element techniques EAT chakra like a starving pig.
I always figured it as ‘magic whose prerequisites are unethical’
For instance, to become a lich in DnD, you have to kill at least one innocent.
And the idea that ethics are unique to particular cultures is vastly exaggerated. Ancient Celtics and Chinese would both oppose disturbing the dead.
People take an exception like the Aztecs and blow it up to say “look, ethics are subjective, the one culture whom is despised by its neighbors thinks even sacrificing people is ethically acceptable!”
Like a bunch of doofuses.
Thank you. Someone had to say it.
Yes, my own opinion on the matter is similar. Magics that have their power come from evil. Examples include but are not limited to: lichdom, pacts with demons, devils or dark gods, most forms of magic that put your soul (or the souls of others) at great risk. The analogy of the knife fails for dark magic because it is not a normal magic/knife, it is a knife that you could use for service, but only if used for slaughter first.
To be fair, not only some mage needs to kill one innocent to become lich, but also every lich needs to feed his/her phylactery (an object where mage's souls reside) with souls to continue existing. And, if I'm not mistaken, the process destroys consumed souls.
So not only do you kill someone, you not only rob them of the afterlife, but you essentially destroy them.
Of course, there are different forms of lichdom, and they vary from each other, but the classical one is still unmoral.
Agree with you. Most cultures have similar morals and ethics. Almost all of the cultures agree with no disturbing death ones, it is bad to do it. Look all the cursed stuff you have to do in order to have a tiny piece of power. Cultures who do not follow this rule, well, you can see that they are rather very behind of others or just extinguished
Ancient cells, Chinese, saxons, indians, vikings, minoans and Greeks (and many more) all had human sacrifice. Some rituals were incredibly cruel, such as raping and torturing a virgin, others just included slitting someone's throat and tossing them in a bog. But human sacrifice was very common in ancient cultures.
If the gods require a sacrifice, what's the most valuable thing you have to sacrifice? A human life.
Yeah, I hate this trope but for the exactly opposite reason. I WANT some kinds to magic to be stigmatized, but as you said, there should be reasons for it. Authors seem to lack the balls to create something truly evil, like shadow magic being banned because accessing it involves committing mass atrocities, instead writing that "it is too cool for the general populace and the protagonist needs more edgy powers" or "look at those poor, misunderstood shadow magic users, they are prosecuted because of their own choices in what spells they learn, it's just like real world racism".
Even something like a type of magic being banned because it's the main force of a nation we've been at war for centuries is more reasonable, since the magic transformed into a symbol and anyone using it expresses their sympathies with the enemy. I would also be fine with simple tradition, if it was actually based on something, like a catastrophic event long ago that caused the magic to be stigmatized and was eventually forgotten, leaving behind only the negative connotations. This gives both the opportunity for challenging the common preconceptions, as there is nothing inherently evil in that kind of magic, but also a lesson about pushing things too far, as it has already been proven to be extremely dangerous.
Still, I want to see magic of capital E Evil. Necromancy not as something "disrespectful", but as a malevolent force that twists and corrupts all it touches, actively resisting any attempt to put it to good use, or a terrible art that puts the departed souls through unimaginable torment to bind their will to a corpse, with the only reason skeletons plowing the fields staying silent, is that they literally have no voice to cry suffering. I don't want despair, nor gore but for the word dark to MEAN something.
The easiest way i can think of doing evil magic is essentially doing bio/chemical warfare but with a magic flavour.the reason why i think its the most intuitive way to do evil magic is because no matter how you intend to use a disease,it is pretty much unavoidable by its very nature to keep it from spreading to people and things you did not intend to.
Add to that the fact that magic can,depending on setting,alter you very soul or bar you from having an afterlife alltogether and you got yourself something that will alway be more destructive than intended and end up being evil to anyone no matter what and who they think have value
Ya, that's my same issue with dark magic. If (insert magic here) is evil, then why is it evil? As a reader, I feel like i need a good reason to buy into it.
A good example of this, in my opinion, is necromancy in the witcher. Necromancy isn't evil because of some vague cultural notions. It's evil because you can see the poor person brought back suffering from it. If I saw someone treat a loved one of mine like that, I would be horrified.
Another example is from the series Star vs. the tv series. The forbbiden chapter of spells is not forbidden because the spells are bad as there are arguably worse spells elsewhere, but because they were made by Queen Eclypsa who was seen as evil, giving her spells a stigma, and so her chapter of the spellbook locked up so no one could be corrupted by her teachings.
On the other hand, a spell being restricted or feared because it does something taboo like kill or torture does make sense because I wouldn't want someone to use such a spell on me. Outright banning it and treating spells that incinerate, crush, lacerate, etc. as perfectly acceptable ways to kill or harm just feels hypocritical, though, unless there is a decent explination. Especially since I dont see major powers rejecting such tools if the only reason its banned is because it does something that is percievd as bad, but can be done via other means.
The issue becomes that dang near any force is capable of being used for good or ill. For a form of magic to be *truly* evil, it'd need to be one that directly works through and impacts evil itself. Magic whose only practical, no, only possible end result is making things worse. One that explicitly causes undue or uncontrolled torment and ruination.
I think TES handles Necromancy and the concept of "Good Necromancy" in a particularly interesting way, as that aforementioned "Good Necromancy" within the context of the universe the series takes place in isn't actually Necromancy, but a similar form of spiritual practice called Spirit Magic, that is often confused for Necromancy in the cultures outside of the one it belongs to. Spirit Magic has a number of elements that differentiate it from Necromancy, and those within the culture that Spirit Magic originates from consider Necromancy to be along the lines of a crude, base imitation of their Spirit Magic.
So in truth, this "Good Necromancy" seen in TES isn't actually necromancy at all, but a form of spiritual practice that is often confused for Necromancy due to surface similarity.
The darkest magic is any mind control, especially charm person type spells, at best it's manipulation, restraint and gas lighting. most of the time it's the spell to force people into suicide or to allow the caster to sexually assault them.
we do necromancy all the time IRL, that's what organ and blood transplants are, putting something dead, spilled blood or the organs of the dead into the body of the weak and bringing them strength.
The Dragon Prince went about it pretty alright. Black magic is an imitation of actual magic, which humans can't generally do. It can do the same things as regular magic and more, but it always, without exception, requires killing a living being. Small spells may require something like a butterfly or a beetle, but the bigger the spell, the bigger the sacrifice. I've only watched to season 3, but I'm pretty sure people are not out of the question.
Dragon Prince is actually one of the shows that convinced me to talk about this. The show has not done enough to convince me that all Dark Magic spells are evil. The spells I remember use bugs, animal parts or herbs. All of our meals are made from plants and animals. Is cooking a dark practice too?
@@humblegallipot Actually, I believe the Dragon Prince makes its case quite well for Dark Magic being evil if you look closely
Look at how Callum learns Sky Magic : he learns that he is connected to the Sky through his breath, he understands better his place in the world, there's spiritual growth involved here (perhaps I'm not saying this right but I think you follow me)
I haven't watched Season 5 so I don't know how he learns the Ocean Arcanum but I assume (or at least hope) that something similar happens.
But Dark Magic ? No growth, no understanding, no spirituality, only consumption and power. So it might not be 'evil' per say, but it's just the other option is much better
@@arkenn3497 Well bit of a spoiler here but it seems that understanding the Arcanum isn't enough for a human to use its magic in the show. It is required to create the link but not enough, again spoiler for season 5 but Callum is only able to use the Ocean Arcanum after using dark magic for a 2nd time.
If dark magic is indeed necessary to create the link to a specific Arcanum then I think Dark Magic would rather be Magic in its pure raw form. The Arcanum are more refined and specialised types of magic but unless you're born with a connection to them or you create an artificial one you can't use magic, ever.
On the other hand dark magic is available to everyone but there is a price to pay, price that is not necessarily the lives of other living being but can be something that contain life force, as a reminder they once used the horn of a dragon to create a bridge with lava but the dragon was still alive. That means you could technically teach 10 humans the basics of a specific Arcanum, make sure they have a deep understanding of the Arcanum they want and then give each of them a leaf to perform dark magic. Using dark magic for the first time would plunge them into a coma but once they're awake they would be able to use the Arcanum they want forever and they would just have to do the same thing again once they're ready to learn a new Arcanum.
As for dark magic being evil like I said you don't necessiraly need to kill to use it and even the show acknowledges it, the bridge was created with evil reasons to go to war but now it connects the two lands safely and one day it will even be covered with grass and trees as nature already started growing on it.
Just to finish, there is no such thing as someone or something born inherently evil, a hammer can be used to build a house or bash peoples head, that doesn't make the hammer evil but it sure means the one that wields it is.
@@Gireg So you think that a human (or elf maybe) would need to use Dark Magic once to create a link to an Arcanum ?
It's an interesting idea but I'm not sure : in the dream sequence for the Sky Arcanum, Callum actively rejects Dark Magic, so I'm not certain the show really supports your theory
However if Callum really used Dark Magic once before gaining access to the Ocean Arcanum, then perhaps it is foreshadowing that you need to use Dark Magic first to open an Arcanum
I'm not sure though, I'll have to check the sequence of events that leads to Callum gaining the Ocean Arcanum. Nonetheless, I think your idea has merits
It is possible to sacrifice oneself to cast a spell?, that could be a heroic use of dark magic if it is cast to save innocents. The other use could be killing someone that is dangerous to the world to cast a spell that undoes part or all the damage he did.
I agree it is important to ask who is calling it evil and why, and think the answer is different depending on the context. In Tolkien's LOTR, evil has a tangible impact on the world, destroying nature and subjugating entire peoples to tyranny and enslavement. Evil magic corrupts those in power with fear and greed, like Wormtongue. Leading to death and suffering everywhere around them.
In stark contrast, the Wuxia series Mo Dao Zu Shi (Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation) presents demonic cultivation as the "evil" counterpart to cultivating a golden core in the traditional style. The logic is that by drawing on latent negative energy of ghosts and other spirits, demonic cultivation is a corrupting fast track to power. Meanwhile, divinely powered golden cores must be carefully developed through meditation and under elite tutelage. In the long run, however, golden cores are used to wage bloody fascist wars, twice. While the protagonist uses talismans and other focuses of demonic energy to protect the people he loves.
I think both of these works have very specific themes, shaped by their philosophies and the cultures of their authors. And how they construct their magic systems, including their morality, reflects their worldviews. Magic isn't any one way. How it's used is what gives it meaning.
I half agree, but we're missing out on a major alternative reason for 'evil'. To recap, forbidden magic, potentially perceived as evil are:
-Damages the world in a permanent way (destroys/weakens the underlying fabric of reality/magic)
-Similarly, the magical practice introduces extra dimensional energy, allowing malicious old/outer gods or devils to further influence our reality
-Damages people, ie introduces toxic byproducts or is uses blood/life force and so becomes easy for people to a use. Not inherently evil, but get a bad rap.
-the final one, that's probably the most used, but least discussed is the one that's addictive. Practicing the magic acts like a drug, destroying the mind or soul slowly, causing users to lose empathy and become sociopaths. Basically the same magic the turns you into a lich in D&D
Of course some variation of these exist too.
The Witcher series does a great job of playing with all of these tropes.
@@Alex-jn3me I find it silly when offensive magic isn't considered "dark" despite only being used to harm people then the magic with the spooky aesthetic is forbidden
@@Alex-jn3me All of these are possibilities, true, but they aren't the only ones. My point is that the way you choose to write your magic system reflects the power dynamics of your world, and the personal philosophy you have in writing it. You're making a thematic statement when you decide what magic is evil or not.
Different fantasy stories can have wildly different messages based in how they use magic.
the thing with dark magic is that it fundamentally assumes either a linear or affine morality, where some things/some normal of a plane or hyperplane are inherently “le bad” and some are “le good,” and while you can use this if you’re careful about playing “who says it’s good or bad?” that takes brainpower a lot of writers don’t want to use.
realistically scifi does the best negation of this, where everything is just tech, and anything and everything is used for any and every purpose under the sun. but a flat negation is not a supercession, and i don’t know what the synthesis would be.
@@pallingtontheshrike6374 What is considered to be good or bad depends on the power dynamics at play in the story, in both science fiction and fantasy.
Many fantasy authors do not think about this critically, true, and end up creating a morality system where those in power are justified using it against people without question. But this is just as common in science fiction stories that glorify power.
Whether technology or magic, how it's portrayed carries significant weight. Studio Ghibli's Hayao Miyazaki thinks LOTR is a racist story because all the white Elves, Dwarves, and Humans go to war against Sauron's "evil" army of dark-skinned orcs and people of color. Tolkien himself wrote a lot more nuance into the army than that, writing about the enslavement of the east in the Silmarillion. But many people have interpreted the books that way, and for especially good reason if you consider the Peter Jackson films.
With this in mind, Miyazaki talked about how he writes his own fantasy with a very different idea of evil. He doesn't dehumanize his villains, instead depicting them as people with needs and desires, and even the ability to grow and change. It ends up being a very different style of fantasy where your assumptions about the world are generally wrong and violence is rarely the answer.
Miyazaki doesn't ever use the trope of dark magic. But learning about that interview is what made me think of Mo Dao Zu Shi, and the ambiguous morality of both golden cores and demonic cultivation. Similarly, many science fiction stories like to play with moral ambiguity and power to make compelling stories, like Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy.
Why does the darkside fling lightning bolts, but the good guys use MIND CONTROL?
Gotta say, i'm surprised the Sith aren't using mind tricks so much XD
@@saparapatepete It would be so much easier than a force choke, and honestly it’s much scarier. If you think you’re important, you don’t think they’ll kill you. But Mind Control? That’s always on the table
Because the Jedi Mind Trick is less violent...
A youtuber by the name of ThorSkywalker did a video on this exact topic.
If I remember correctly, the Jedi use mind tricks because they view it as a method of peaceful resolution to a problem. Ethics can be discussed one way or the other (and I believe they were by the Jedi) but generally they viewed the benefits as outweighing and potential negatives to it. Why fight a swarm of bandits when you can mind trick their captain to order them all to stand down or leave? Why kill an innocent man protecting his family when you can mind trick him into calming down and engage in diplomacy? Etc etc.
The Sith on the other hand viewed mind tricks as exactly that, a trick. The Sith aren't above controlling someone's mind, but if they did they used a power that *Dominated* the mind rather than merely *tricked* it. Why nudge a guard to letting you into a stronghold when you can force them to do so, then force them to start firing on their fellow guards? Why ask someone to accept your suggestion when you can command them to bow to your will?
The difference for the Jedi and Sith is a matter of Power, Control, and Strength (both perceived and inherent).
The Jedi don't have any need or want to display their power or enforce their control if they don't need to.
The Sith otoh, DO want to display their power and enforce their control.
Of course, these are generalizations and there are always exceptions, for example, the Jedi Mind Wiping Revan in the KOTOR games, or Palpatine playing political games for years until he formed the empire and wiped out most of the Jedi in one fell swoop.
Jedi uses suggestions or tricks that are are quick and harmless.
Sith uses mind control, complete subjugation of free will and can permanently damage the minds of others
My favorite version can be summed up as doing magic drugs: Feels really powerful, but has some dangerous side effects, potentially addictive to use, or straight up uses some pretty messed up sources to execute.
The idea of totally relative evil is a very modern concept. Back in the day a thing wasn't just evil because it didn't benefit people, but because it went against the natural order of things.
Ah yes, the Post-Modern Magic where everything is subjective
@@eggbunnow I understand why I hate the idea of “dark magic but it’s ok since the guy using it is good”
what about an entirely relevant definition of evil? Let's take into count an absloute scale of all sentient life. Then let us focus on suffering, despair and pain all those things within the scope previously mentioned and call that combined sensation the scream of evil. Now there are distinct causes of that scream, actions and circumstances that make it "louder" some of these are created by humans hurting eachother with rape, murder, stuff like that, but just as much is happenstance such as a famine, disease, a rock slide crushing a limb for no reason. So with that firm definition of evil (all of it everywhere) good becomes equally straight forward as action/force that stops, sooths, prevents or otherwise make "the scream" less.
In theory a universal spell of Ultimate good that carves into the universe "all that will ever cause the scream and is causing it now will be casually forbiden and prevented by the very cosmic forces of the universe. enabling all sentient life to flourish as itself sees fit forever and always" I'd say there's very little cost not worth paying. It wouldn't be unreasonable for 100 innocent babes to be offered as payment, for there are 100 teen moms out there right now scared, afraid and unprepared who's unwanted offspring would suffice given every one of them would all but be assured to live in poverty and by extension add to the scream by the simple crime of being conceived in a girl who is without the means or maturity to raise them
mtg players will tell you abjuration magic is evil
It's really funny how stax can be either "destruction of all land on the plane" or "pay your taxes", and both are equally hated
Witch Hat Atelier is by far the best example i know of that treats "dark" margic this way, i really recomend the manga
I have seen some of it. It looks great but I am not big into manga. I hope it gets animated soon.
@@humblegallipot i see, in that case i really hope it gets animated!! it's very much worth the time, i hope more people can enjoy it eventually :))))
@humblegallipot It does have an anime adaptation that has been announced, but it hasn't released yet.
A fellow Witch Hat Atelier enjoyer, nice
I would consider it a rather dirty move to mess with someone's afterlife (which exists in most settings, and messing with people's corpses often disturbs the afterlife in many settings). Even worse if you are dragging some innocent souls from their respective afterlifes in order to fight. Even more despicable if because of your magic the soul gets "used up" and truly destroyed -- even most enemies wouldn't deserve to just skip divine judgement and be obliterated (besides the fact that you're stealing souls from whoever that 'divine judge' is, you might want to use that magic on yourself before you die, lol). Depending on what a soul is, how conscious it is etc, you are either stealing someone's essence to use in your spells or literally enslaving people who were chilling in the afterlife to fight for you. I'm okay with such magic being considered evil. And in the majority of settings it is usually well explained why it's 'evil and dark', too. When it's just animating corpses with no beliefs about disturbed afterlife attached to them it is usually portrayed as just "nasty but okay, whatever".
You may enjoy The Witch and The Beast. In that setting, you don't properly move through the afterlife after being brought back but in some parts of the world, necromancy is legal once you have the consent of the deceased or their family.
@@humblegallipot Hmm. Thanks for the recommendation, I'll look at it.
I don't actually like worlds where there is some degree of certainty about what comes after death. Don't get me wrong, I still like many of these stories. It's just that in many of them the characters seem to treat death the same way we do in real life even if they know something of what comes after. That kind of takes me out of the story. In real world even the most fervent believers and non-believers usually have doubts about what is actually going to happen. Even the proof that souls exist and are connected to personhood would change our perception of life and death forever. Meanwhile people in worlds like dnd will act sad about kids dying even when they are educated enough to know that most kids will go to lathander's heaven and have a mich nicer time than they would in the material plane (at least according to Chris Perkins, forgotten realms lore is wonky). Or the opposite -- if, say, reincarnation is proven, why would you ever damn your soul for anything? You and your loved ones will have a second chance eventually, it's better to try your best and hope for a better respawn.
@@GeanAmiraku
That's actually pretty realistic, in our world eveb the most fervernt religious people (particulary Christians cause that reassembles your example) get sad when their loved ones pass, even tjo they are convinced there's a nice afterlife coming for them.
Also, see the story of Lazarus in the Bible (John 11) for how even the Son of God wept for the death of a man, having so much sympathy as to bring him back to life, even tho, in that very same chapter, it's mentioned how he was supposed to have life again in the distant future anyway.
@@jasdanvm3845 as I said, in real life even the most religious people will have their doubts every now and again (and for a very good reason - we don't have any real and verifiable evidence for *any* afterlife), so of course they will get sad - they don't actually know where their loved ones went, or if they went anywhere instead of just ceasing to exist. Usually even the most religious people more or less understand that their beliefs are based on ancient and poorly translated books and stories. Unless these people are really dumb, but none of the religious people I know irl are dumb so, eh, idk. Even those of my friends that are so religious they'd spend their vacation working in a monastery will admit that their beliefs are not exactly equal to knowledge. Their beliefs are a construct that helps them survive and have hope.
And the Bible is simply another example of a story where it's not clear why should we even care about somebody dying if it is all in god's plan. Surely the all knowing, the kindest and the most powerful being in the universe will be able to send everyone who doesn't deserve eternal torture to a good place eventually. Of course only truly bad people will go to hell, and why would I be sad if a truly bad person dies and goes to hell? It makes zero sense when people in the Bible become sad when somebody dies.
Wizard: "that's dark magic!"
Me: "Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man."
I don't know but I have the impression that if we take my neighbor and a person from a city on the other side of the world they will both think that forcing a person's soul back into their rotting body to use as a slave is not a thing very kind thing to do.
What makes black magic evil is that it will be messing with things that we have no right to (the soul of another being, for example) or that to use it it is necessary to commit a crime such as sacrificing an innocent person or associating with evil entities.
@@torchhollow1335 yes but necromancy is not always messing with souls... depending on the story/book/whatever it can simply be the act of raising corpses to serve you in some way... in which case its really no different from any other magic but would still probably be seen as evil simply because it can raise corpses.
@@arcanumelite4853yeah but that take on necromancy is extremelly lame. Its just aestethics without gravitas.
There is objective good and evil.
In a fantasy that makes sense, evil magic would be something where you need to do something objectively evil in order to cast that magic like making a deal with demons, cursing someone, or sacrificing children.
If the author chooses to follow tradition, there's no foul there. I am simply suggesting that their there be a culture-focused perspective. The community that is comfortable sacrificing people will most likely be the antagonist of the series. I think it is important to ask "What is their agenda?" and "How do they convince their members that this is acceptable?".
Depending on the setting/community all magic could be considered evil
There is no such thing as objective evil.
@@stuffynosepatrol There is objective good and evil and everything is not relative. The ends never justify the means.
A person's perspective does not change objective reality.
The idea that all perspectives are equally valid is 100% wrong. Merely believing something to be true does not make it true.
@@josephreagan9545 there is no objective morality because there is no objective standard for morality. Just because you think your morality is objectively correct doesn't make it so. There is no standard to compare it to.
@@josephreagan9545 basically there can be no objective laws without an objective law giver
A form of magic can be inherently "evil" if the use of it requires a henious act or two. What really plagues the trope of "evil magic" is that in most media,the writers themselves have barely an idea about why it is evil in the first place and/or don't dare to show it in the show,since they deem it inappropriate/too bold/etc.
I would argue that often that often there is a general lack of idea regarding how that magic works.
Seriously,when was the last time you saw someone deliberately crushing a child's dreams to make the closest adult act as a comforting/guardian figure,only to torture them to death after making sure they bonded? All for a spell?
What I like about Dungeon Meshi is that they explain why it's considered evil in their culture, and Marcil counters the explanation with almost this exact argument. She is essentially like okay, but healing magic can be used for torture, fire magic burns whole cities, every magic has a place in the world and can be helpful in certain situations or dangerous in others so I'm studying forbidden magic to prove it also has a place in society.
So something that I feel should be mentioned is that things have absolutely been banned because they were perceived as bad or taboo by ruling powers. The prohibition, in particular, comes to mind for this.
The issue as I see it isn't that a society banning a sort of magic, or viewing a sort of magic as wrong is poor storytelling, It's that we as the audience need to feel comfortable with this fact in the story.
Having a person get discriminated against because they were born with weird magic is realistic, because we have historically discriminated against people for far less. But if it sort of just feels like people are discriminating against them because "dark magic evil, but really its not," then it doesn't feel right. Or if there is a spell to kill and it's forbidden and unforgivable, but other murderous spells exist that are acceptable, then it feels wrong. Even necromancy, there is nothing inheritly immoral about raising a corpse and having it do stuff or in contacting the spirit of a dead loved one. If a group shows up and says, "necromancy bad," it doesn't feel right because, outside of disrespecting a corpse, there is nothing inheritly wrong with raising the dead. Context can change that, but we often aren't provided with that context, which makes it feel odd when someone is ademently against necromancy (or other forbidden magics)
If magic is dark, it needs to have a strong and clear reason why society has decided to ban it. Otherwise, it doesn't feel right, whether or not its something that might happen in real life, and especially if its useful for those in power to utilize for their own benefit.
There was a game I played a long time ago. Can't remember the name for the life of me, but one of the characters had the ability to heal people, and part of her subplot was being treated like a pariah because of it. They establish that, even though her magic is very beneficial, people don't naturally have magical abilities, and those who do eventually turn into monsters.
This is, of course, a lie told by the nobility. The monsters come about as a result of repeated exposure to a certain kind of magical powder that they make from ground up magical stones of some kind, that they've been selling as a cure-all for generations. They told people that because it keeps the populace dependent on the Empire to protect them from monsters _they_ created, and to keep anyone with actual miraculous abilities from amassing any power at all.
Eternal Sonata! That was it.
I read a story which does this trope well with forbidden magic, with the two forbidden types being death magic and time magic. For time magic alongside issues with it making time travel rituals possible (though absurdly expensive and impractical for even a few seconds to the past), and it causes rapid aging in parts of the body from continuous use with no cure or treatment. Death magic is forbidden because of the last time a powerful user of it emerged they were responsible for the destruction of an entire nation and turning huge areas of land into barren wasteland, and the undead in universe are not easy to get to do non killing the living stuff.
I like this: "the last time it happened..." approach more than, "It's unethical, so we don't do it". Gives actual realistic reason why things are this way and foundation for something more.
I also like the "We could do it, but then everybody would start doing it, and mutually assured destruction would follow. So, we have created a convention". And when it comes to magic, there might even be some kind of magic seals, detectors within spells themselves or some other stuff that actually prevent some magicks from being perfotmed by most people. Obviously, they would need an agreement of powerful forces to establish them in the first place. So, gods, powerful organisations and unions are at least involved.
Actually, this gives me an idea of a protagonist learning magics, seeing loopholes that can give them power, but then getting arrested by magic police for violating some sort of convention.
This way dark magic feels less like some forbidden art, and more like crimes.
On the other hand, dark magic can also mean forgotten magic, that has been recovered, or magic of unknown origins, meaning, how exactly it works, what effects or side-effects it has, and other things are not known, as it's only known to the original creator of the spell and it's up to them to provide documentation. This way it's less "forbidden" and more "very questionable and doubious". Imagine a spell, that raises dead, but, it's actually a form of a contract with an ancient powerful being that demands sacrifices in form of soul or lifeforce for it's services. Or a spell that is "infested" with scrying magic, revealing information about the caster to a third party. Possibilities are endless.
This is more a problem with how modern fantasy has begun to view dark magic, necromancy isn't what it's supposed to be anymore because people only represent it at it's surface level. It's not that dark magic is "evil" by itself its that it gets labeled as evil due to the sacrifices of ones self and the practices used to bring about the magic. Summoning undead used to not be as simple as animating a thing of bones and having it do labor it used to be the practice of bringing in horrific souls from the darkest places and putting them into corpses. If the necromancer failed to retain control the corpses would be free from their grasp and begin to make it their single mission to feed on the flesh of the living. While all spells can be used for "evil" necromancy's inherit long term dangers of causing a fantasy walking dead/Evil dead mixed catastrophes is what dubbed the magic forbidden. Minds can be freed, fireballs are like weapons humankind hasn't discovered yet, illusions truly do no direct harm, and frogs can be restored to true form. The undead epidemic can generally only be solved through lots of death and carnage and thus it's the longterm effects are why the magic is forbidden not to mention it's more powerful spells would bring about liches, vampires, and other undead which used to all have one sole purpose to destroy the living. This used to be an absolute where as no matter how good intentioned a necromancer was it was always destined to corrupt a part of their very soul changing them forever that only powerful godlike spells could fix, not to mention the often biting off more than they could chew with the more and more powerful spells. Even the most well intentioned necromancer who gets everything right eventually dies, and once he does all of his undead are suddenly off their leash and free to destroy. Lichdom used to come with the caveat that it required the deaths of entire towns and you needed souls of mortals not just animals or bugs but true souls of the living the amount of innocents that needed to be consumed for these powerful spells hardly made the magic justified.
Now a days I agree with your point that dark magic isn't a good trope, it lacks any of the reasoning as to why it's evil. Necromancy nowadays is just "oh yeah I just bring the corpses back and use them to do labor and such", or the dark magic costs living lives but basically can be supplemented with animals and such which isn't really evil if you cook food same process, and it's more an opinion that causes people to not like the magic rather than actual "factual" reasons for why you don't play with the book of the dead. It's because magic in modern fiction is under the lense of "It's how you use it" rather than having the fantasy of there are some things you don't touch no matter how tempting the power is, and it's this lense that makes dark magic being forbidden in more modern fiction pointless to even include because it always becomes a "well actually necromancy isn't evil" because well now in modern fantasy games and shows it really isn't anymore.
The force in Star Wars is interesting, the force itself is neutral but it responds to emotion and the more you indulge in extreme emotions the more unstable and self-centred you become.
In the _Sword of Truth_ series, instead of Light and Dark magic, you had Additive and Subtractive magic, the latter of which was more rare. They were exactly what they sound like, adding or removing properties of objects. The hero of the story had them both.
In the campaigns i have been in, there wasn't really "evil" magic, but forbidden spells that were dangerous to the caster and others. We had a party member learning the forbidden spells, and one other party member had a conniption over it. My character, a wildfire druid, explained it this way "Fire is not seen as evil, but it destroys entire fields and towns. Yet no one blames the flames because it brings about rebirth, and renewal. The magic our friend used, it was dangerous, but saved us. I see it no different than the flames I use to heal you all."
The character using the "forbidden" spells became a pseudo deity of sorts that oversees the balance of time, and keeps watch for others using those dangerous spells. So cool!
This is only an issue in the west. In eastern stories, black/dark magic is so diverse it’s insane. Sometimes it’s fine, sometimes it isn’t. And usually, when it’s bad, it’s cause dark magic comes from a being that corrupts/kills you over time.
I have an idea for Dark Magic
What if some Magicks were tied to a will ? Not like Warlocks in D&D who get their power from a pact but like Faust who gets power from the devil, but it's not actually him performing the feats but Mephistopheles. That causes one big problem : Mephistopheles has all the power, he decides what to do, how to do it, and only gives Faust the illusion of having the control since the guy has no way of making the devil respecting the terms of the pact. Remember, this is not a magical pact, it's a verbal one ; Faust says "I want this" and Mephistopheles gives it to him in exchange for whatever he asks for, but there is not magical law that will punish Mephistopheles if he breaks the pact, meanwhile Faust has no way of protecting himself of making the devil respect the pact.
So, what if, in a fantasy setting, you used a spell, but the spell fell under the juridiction of a god/devil/Ctulhu/whatever, and the god did it, in exchange for infusing you with a bit of his/hers/its essence. Crucial detail : you are not the caster, the god/whatever is, he just transfers the spell to you.
It's a benevolent entity ? No problem. It's Sauron ? You're in trouble because the guy is corrupting you from the inside and sooner or later, you'll be his puppet wether you like it or not
So the spell isn't necessarily evil in and on itself (you could ask Sauron for healing), but the source is, and that's gonna cost you something
But yeah, just having "the skeleton moved, it's evil" is kinda dumb
Have you read Faust? Mephistopheles must abide by the pact with Faust. Because before he made the pact with Faust, he made a bet with God. If Mephistopheles did not keep the pact with Faust, he would lose the bet with God and the bet is the most important thing for Mephistopheles.
Fun fact: Mephistopheles wins in the end because Faust gets tired of life, but God doesn't keep the bet. So he loses anyway.
You could make it a magical contract, just that the source is unpredictable. Like asking a mischievous genie for a wish. If you don’t word it properly your wish could backfire horribly. And since it is a contract or rather, an exchange, you will need to pay some sort of price for the magic as stipulated in the contract. This could be anything and gives you creative freedom to decide what. Heck a mage could even have multiple magical contracts at once. For example benevolent deities/fey/or whatnot don’t ask for much but are unwilling to perform a variety of things. Whether dark entities don’t care and allow you to summon whatever chaos you want … for a substantially higher price.
Reminds me of a conversation regarding Litches in D&D. To paraphrase "They aren't evil because they're undead, they're evil because the process to become one requires (among other similar things) the blood of a dead humanoid baby."
You are trying to apply a post-modern understanding of morals upon a concept that born out of a worldview in which evil was understood as, if not something that ontologically existed, then a flaw universal in nature and absolutely objective. Things like black magic seem silly only if you suscribe to a view in which morality is a social construct, which the original stories didn't shared.
The question you should be asking is: What defines the morals of my world? This reality supports the idea of some kind of intrinsically evil magic or not?
In a lot of fantasy works, it's commonly accepted that magic is either good or bad based on the source of the magical power, not just based on what kinds of magical effects are being used. For example in DnD, warlocks are sometimes vilified because they made a pact with an evil god/being in exchange for magical power.
Funny you mentioned necromancy. That school is the biggest well known form of dark magic. Yet enchantment in universe within most settings don't get ANY form of scrunity. Especially since a lot of people conveniently forget that resurrection spells like rivifyify are NECROMANCY.
As soon as you said enchantment my mind went: “soul gems?” “Skyrim?” 🤣 Yeah that is a funny one. There are immense ethical concerns regarding necromancy in that universe, but enchantment, which uses up a soul’s energy (nobody even knows what happens with the soully leftovers of animals, and people get sent to the soul cairn which is basically purgatory) is totally fine, makes you rich, and is the main reason people still like mages xD. Whereas with necromancy, depending on which source material you believe and what you are doing, causes momentary discomfort to a soul … usually a soul of a bandit or killer who is due some discomfort. After which they are spirited back to their afterlife as the spell wanes. But that is completely forbidden and anathema 🤣
@@gianniaerts7352 That's an interesting point.
Although. By enchantment. I ment the enchantment school of magic from dnd.
@@mineflameblade8788 Oooooh, I’m not familiar with enchantment in DnD but I do know that revivify is classified as necromancy there. Is that where the joke: “necromancers are just late healers” comes from? ^^
@@gianniaerts7352 Somewhat. Most of the time. They raise people as skeletons and zombies. Or stronger ones depending on level.
Although by DnD logic the resurrection spells are essentially begging god to let the dead person come back.....
.....and most importantly said dead person can refuse, and nothing you do can bring them back if they do so.
Compare that to casting Create Undead on their corpse and turning them into a Wight, Dooming them for eternity and leaving them with an intense compulsion to snuff out and extinguish all forms of life.
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One of those requires consent from the natural authority, and permission.
The other only leads to suffering and Death.
The only reason they're in the same school is because they do similar things (bringing a dead person back).....not because they are the same.
In "Keeper of the Swords" series by Nik Perumov black magic is the area of magic arts that works with death, shadow, decay and curses. It is considered just another area of magic and is taught at academies,but is generally despised because it was masterfully used by one non-human race to crush human kingdoms once
Ironically black magic is best weapon against creatures of darkness and undead, with which other types of magic struggle
The general concept behind some branches of magic being evil is that there is something about that branch of magic that causes harm simply because you're using it, regardless of what you're using it FOR. What that might be depends on the setting, but to give an extreme example, if a spell requires mass human sacrifice to power it and the souls are going straight to some hell dimension where they'll be tortured for eternity with no hope of rescue or reprieve, it's hard to make the "it's just a tool" argument.
Of course, there are cases of "dark" magic where there is no such innate harm, but the society as a whole doesn't approve of it for some reason or another.
I think one example that I think handles dark magic really interestingly is the manga witch hat atelier. In that story, magic was something that everyone used to be able to do, but magic could be heavily destructive, and there are many spells that can do some absolutely insane stuff, especially in war. It was eventually decided in that universe that magic was too powerful for everyone to have and for all of them to be allowed, which created the concept of Forbidden Spells, particularly spells that actually do something to a human being. Turning people into things, putting curses on them, etc. One interesting wrinkle in this is that healing spells are also considered forbidden because even though healing is a good thing, it’s still a spell that does something to a person. The one spell that effects people that’s not forbidden is erasing memory, as that’s how the witches have convinced people, only they can use magic because if people discovered everyone could use magic there’d be the dangers of what happened before. Even then though erasing memory is really dangerous for obvious reasons and witches are kinda gun ho with it, with our main character almost getting her mind wiped by the wizard police with literally no trial or evidence and it’s like oh fuck I really don’t think they should have that power
I like that Dungeon Meshi doesn't see Dark Magic as evil. Their government does, but not the author.
My idea for dark/forbidden or evil magic is if it is utterly destructive in its entirety.
Like if casting normal magic where to just change the state of what already exists and leaves the mana levels back in balance,
Dark/forbidden or evil magic could be significantly much more powerful because it could completely destroy the mana used to fuel the spell, leaving it useless. Continued use in the same area could drain the land of it's respective mana, the more of it is used, leaving the surrounding areas completely destitute
As a storytelling device it makes sense, it is often possible to gain power by hurting people and dark magic represents people who do that
I agree with the points made in this video. People who say there's no such thing as "White magic" or "black magic" are technically incorrect, although their point about the arbitrariness of those terms being used to denote "evil" magic vs "good" magic is a valid one. That use of those terms are also incorrect in a technical sense.
For those curious about the origins of the "Dark Magic" trope in fantasy:
Magic in the fantasy genre is often heavily based on renaissance Christian magics and people who create stories involving fantasy genre magic can reproduce tropes from these historical Christian magics without realizing it. In history these magic practices were popular among the elite during the renaissance (and potentially seen as scandalous by the peasants who, not having access to education, were still operating out the worldview of the previous couple of centuries - the medieval era).
There were 3 main types:
- Theurgy/Gnosis (white magic)
- Natural Magic
- Negromancy/Necromancy/Goetia (black magic)
Goetia is a form of dark magic that is still practiced to this day, and is considered a form of occult practice - unlike its white magic counterpart Gnosis which is often considered a part of religious practice (although both practices are both things). Originally called Negromancy (literally "Black Magic" in greek) and later necromancy (during the early modern period, when people liked to change the spellings of words to things that sounded similar for fun - the same phenomenon behind why Bill is a nickname for Will), Goetia is a practice of invoking the power of the holy spirit to compel demons/spirits to do things as if you were Jesus himself. The fantasy genre honed in on one specific and rare use for necromancy - prolonging one's life after death - (likely due to the popularity of D&D and its use of characters that became the first examples of litches, who had maintained their existence through black magic) and reinterpreted the word as specifically death-themed magic.
As for the other two:
- Natural magic is a broad category of divination using various things found in nature, often brought in influences from various other (ie: pagan) religious traditions - this includes hydromancy (interpreting the color, ripples, etc of some water as a form of divination), astrology (yes, that astrology), alchemy (where we get modern Chemistry from), and chiralmancy (palm reading) among others. Some forms of natural magic became the original basis of modern science, which was initially used to study "General Revelation" AKA "how God expresses himself through the art he made in nature" or "what nature implies about God" until eventually becoming the secular study of nature using a very specific methodology (The Scientific method).
- Theurgy is a form of magic that is in many ways seen an equal opposite of Goetia but has some similarities. It can also include meditation much like Goetia but instead of focusing on controlling external spirits, focuses more on Henosis, creating a spiritual (re)connection with God and the divine. In more modern practices it might be referred to as Gnosis. Although that term 'Gnosis' can have some baggage with it as it often gets equated to the ancient gnostics, who were the people labeled "antichrists" in the (nicene) bible.
This is something that's never made sense to me. "I cast the spell that kills you instantly and painlessly!" = Evil, dark magic, forbidden. "I cast fireball, a spell known for its colateral damage, and the horrendous implications of burning people alive!" = Good wholesome fun. I once played a D&D session where our good aligned cleric waterboarded someone with create water. Surely, it's not the spells themselves, but how they're used?
Depends, in my little custom setting, necromancy is explicitly evil because it requires a soul to be done properly, you can make a corpse move but anything beyond twitches, let alone shambling (unless you want to deal with having multiple minds which even gods find challenging) requires a soul. There are no zombies in this world.
But these souls instinctively despise being locked in this rotting prisons, it’s unnatural, painful and it results in undead being extremely aggressive, dangerous, belligerent and semi-sentient. This is why undead are pretty much only warriors, because normal slaves are simply far more effective. They’re obedient to their masters for only so long, eventually they’ll either go rogue or their soul will rip themselves from the corpse.
The only kind of “moral” undead that exist are known as Oathtakers, who are buried around the tombs of their lords and lieges or around a specific area, and awaken if the tomb is threatened and defend it from plunderers. By constantly awakening then reawakening, and bound by their oath, the soul can stay within the body for far longer periods of time. But even this only lasts so long.
I did this because I find the idea of morally raising someone from the dead really perverse and just don’t like it, unless I’m playing as that evil character of course and stop caring. So I made up a reason why it is evil, beyond just “bones icky”.
Dark magic, traditionally, is strong negative emotion. It's not really about usuing a spell to break every bone in someone's body, but the very personal desire to break every bone in someone you really don't like.
Great video! This is why I find stories that are based on questioning whether something is evil from 2 different cultural perspectives, and using that as conflict, are much richer than just saying "magic has shadow so is bad". If people want to read an interesting story about a singular culture that has one side arrogantly saying "light magic is good" but does not know the history of dark magic, I recommend the Webtoon "The Dark Lord's Confession." Very interesting story that debates the very moral and ethics of light and dark magic in a unique way, and how they deliberately come from the same source and must coexist
Now that you mention it, there is a web comic called retired demon king, where the demon king( the main lead) in one the chapters makes light using dark magic.
I think dark magic can work if it has some sort of consequences that are generally not worth it if you arent selfish, like creating some kind of magical pollution that is slowly destroying the world, or thinning the barrier that separates the world of demons from the mortal realm.
Honestly it might sound silly but that made me think of fel magic from the warcraft universe. As silly as that universe can be I do believe they got that bit right. Fel magic is in general more powerful than regular magic based on mana, but that is only because it is fuelled by life energy, consuming it wholly and making it unable to easily return. As the orc clans turned from shamanism to fell magic and started using it unrestricted it slowly killed their lands as it drained the life from it … and eventually after a while destabilised their whole planet. And even though that should serve as a cautionary tale some younger apprentices in the future complain about the restrictions on fel magic as it’s extra potential can for example keep portals open for longer and make them wider without employing clever tricks or being a powerful mage.
I own and have read every volume of Delicious in Dungeon that's been released in English, and genuinely that scene with Marcille was my favorite. (Spoilers for Dungeon Meshi/Delicious in Dungeon)
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She's studied this magic for years, she hasn't done a single "evil" thing with it and it's the only way to save Falin. Magic isn't inherently good or evil, it is a tool, Laios gives the OK and that shit works! Falin is brought back after being entirely digested! Considering what we know about resurrection magic in that universe that feat is nothing short of a miracle, and it wouldn't have been possible if Marcille wasn't experienced in dark magic. Of course, then the rest of the story continues to happen, which is a different conversation
Definition of evil is quite similar to the definition of darkness: darkness is absence of light. Evil is absence of Good. So, by logic a things can not be evil, because things (material stuff) are not moral. Magic on the other hand, is a type of way for more power.
Maybe we could use some legal laws and apply _that_ to magic to designate what defines "dark" magic...
Spells that are used for rape, torture, and death? Obviously Illegal.
Spells used for stealing, fraud, and any type of forgery? Totally Illegal.
Spells used for vandalism, property destruction, or deformity of any kind? Absolutely Illegal.
Spells used for the explicit purporse of harming others or without consent be it through elements, transformation, telekinesis, mind-diving, duplication, etc.?
Oh, you bet that's Illegal.
@@ellugerdelacruz2555 guess what amount of the spells (in dnd) do at least one of this stuff XD
I think Witch Hat Atelier perfects the take on 'forbidden magic', as 'the ambiguity of who is in charge of setting rules' of magic is a very big theme in that series. ANY magic written on the body is forbidden, which unfortunately includes healing magic- the manga really does well in bringing that conflict to light and doubling down on that theme, as the characters find creative ways to bypass that rule and solve problems using roundabout methods- ex. instead of directly allowing casting a healing spell onto a person, they come up with the idea to cast it on a specific location to prevent misuse
Witch Hat Atelier has something similar to dark magic with “forbidden magic”. It is magic that is banned because of being used on living things, including healing magic. The only exception is the memory wiping spell because a non-witch could be hurt if they use the magic they learn.
This gives hard rules on what magic is good or bad and has little to no grey areas.
I can imagine some magic being considered evil beyond cultural boundaries. It may involve having a hidden cost; something involved in using the magic is inherently harmful, but not in a way that's immediately apparent to the spellcaster. Like a demonic bargain, or a type of magic that slowly makes the world more and more difficult to live in, with the magic being banned to avoid a "point of no return", beyond which no life could survive (or perhaps that makes magic disappear).
Okay but my version of dark magic, and I kinda love this, is that all magic has rules and limitations, but hardly any cost. Dark magic you must sacrifice something for power, usually a person, something one of a kind, something loved, but this gives you a power with almost no limits.
In the fantasy series I'm writing, Spells in the "Dark Magic" category are just those that don't fit the other 6 elements neatly, like a telekinesis spell, a spell made to wake you up at a certain time, or a spell that can tell you if someone with hostile intentions gets close to you. I do have something called "Foul Magics" which is what will be the "Dark Magic", basically spells that are not only dangerous but can also effect the users mind, soul, and body, warping them into something unrecognizable. There are also illegal spells that are regular magic specifically because of the side effects they have, such as a high chance of death of the recipient and/or user of the spell, or they require you to be specifically trained and licensed, like spells for making precious metals or surgical spells.
I remember in Jason Aaron's run of Dr. Strange they mention that all magic has a price to pay to maintain the cosmic balance to the point that for every evil being you kill with magic must be paid in blood and that when humans become magic users they can no longer eat normal food
I love (and use) the idea of "dark" magic being a human label.
In most of my settings the evil magic is the magic that can heavily disbalance the society (Create undead or inorganic unpaid manual labor, duplicate currency, mind-control, magic that allows you to appear as other, ...) or that could be considered a war crime for that time period (That spell that instead of just killing people, transforms them in immortal blobs of meat suffering for all eternity for no reason).
One of the most interesting things on this, is to make diferent views of magic in each region of country. For example in one kingdom people generally accept mind-control as a less violent self-defense method. Meanwhile in the neightbour country, they hate most kinds of magic but for cultural reasons they allows necromany. And in a third country the allow any kind of magic, but only when performed by clergy.
Magic is a nice flashy tool for story telling :)
I made a mistake by saying that I hate the dark magic trope in the video. More accurately, I feel that it is not often explored properly
To me dark magic is magic that warps the user, think Brammimond from FE6.
Anything that infringes on free will is considered evil in my setting. All other magic isn't inherently evil, but the power that comes with it can reveal a person's inner moral corruption. Power doesn't corrupt; it makes corruption apparent.
I've had an idea for a while of a necromancer culture where rather than forcefully controlling souls, they sign contracts in order to be summoned after death and can even be passed down in the family, so you could sommon a Skelton Knight/Wraith and be like "Oh yeah that's my great great great grandpa, he was a general in a war!".
Dark magic might just be the magic of life or magic of decease, it's can not be seen unless it manifested into a medium, just like how we describe black holes, we can only see what's around it, but the absent of the in-between suggests a black hole.
In D&D evil is a substance. You can cast spells that detect it. There are realms made out of the stuff of evil. It could be magic made of the stuff of evil.
That‘s what I like about the Warhammer Fantasy RPG. You have the magic winds and divine magic. Elves can occasionally use the divine magic of their ancient gods if said gods feel like it, but it’s often a transaction of sorts. The winds of magic are on the other hand a „free for all“ and elves excel at mixing, weaving, mashing , splicing and unraveling it.
Humans are compared to this toddlers and the most advanced archmages, witches, etc.? Well they are special ed grade 1. I‘m not even joking whenever a human „fucks up magic“ badly enough the elven response can be categorized as „How is this SOOO hard to grasp for you?!“.
Also humans CAN mix the winds, BUT any more than two and dark magic happens, it’s unnatural, chaotic and opens on occasion a whole into the realm of chaos, where demons, the chaos gods and possibly worse reside, needless to say it’s a corrupted place filled with vile evil things that better stay left alone.
And necromancy is in some places considered evil while others say it isn’t, mostly morbid reasons, religion and ethics make it less appropriate and appealing, well and Morr the gods of death and dreams hates it when the dead don’t stay asleep.
What really kills necromancy’s vibe is evil corrupt magic users, be it vampires (not forces of chaos), dark wizards etc. (humans) and dark elven use it almost exclusively to further their evil deeds.
Conan's black magic is usually concisered evil because it comes from or is supported by dark or Eldritch gods. Necromancy or animancy or the eldritch magic or the sealing magic.
White magic is from the nice ones. For example Mithra can grant his priests healing.
From what i can remember in most settings its usually either decided by:
1. some sort of autority decided arbitrarily. Its not actually dark or evil by itself. Moetly a power grab.
2. the source of the magic. If its from the devil himself its gonna be pretty evil i would think
3. the method by which it works. Like that the dark side of the force corrupts you just by using it. You dont even really have to became all that much of a bad guy and it will still have a negative effect on you. And if you use light side for evil you will slowly slip into the dark side. So the force has an automatic categorising tool for good and evil.
4. its just the difference between support and offense magic. Like in the old final fantasy games. You can use both, not tied to morality, both can be found in public shops and the black mahic rewuirs no sacrifices. Its just a way of saying its main fuction is destructive.
6. Whever someone or something has to die. To be fair, at that point we can get into a sticky gray territory, cause what if you grant life by killing. Did you do a good act or evil or neutral? In princess mononoke it would be neutral way of nature.
I like how Lord Darcy does "Dark Magic".
In that setting, Dark Magic is any magic used to inflict injury on another person. It also causes psychological damage to the people who use it.
I think it could be like laws - killing people is generally illegal, but for example killing in self-defense is reasonable in some cases. So if in a certain culture mind-control is bad, it could be still allowed when it's reasonable (like, again, in self-defense, or that powewrful villain in your example). I think it really should be based on culture anyway, rather than some rule of nature that this is dark magic and this is light magic.
For my own world, my "dark" magic isn't evil:
Infernal (or abysmal, I don't know yet) is a category which is basically "Dark" magic, and the point isn't that it's inherently bad, but it's chaotic and can cause harm if not used properly, it's incredibly powerful, but that power comes with randomness and possible harm.
Want to reanimate dead? Sure, they don't follow you though unless you also control them with another spell. Want to mind control someone? Sure, where do you put their thoughts? Do they control you? Do you have the will to make your way into the labyrinth of another person's head? Oh sure you can use power word forget or erase, but what does it make of you? How does your soul feel now? Are you forgetting something? Or did you gain all of their knowledge too? Do you want to unleash demons on this world? Sure, do they follow you? Why would they?
Abysmal magic isn't about evil, but consequences, my other forms are either bartering (Divine) or cost (Arcane)
That's actually a major point to one of the stories i am working on. The Main Character (not the perspectice we follow) uses mind control magic, or more specifically called "suggestion" magic. It is considered evil but what he uses it for is therapy for those who are traumatized. (The main people he heals being female victims of goblins as they are commonly found compared to others)
And when it comes to dangerous/in combat situations, he enhances allies' focus, mental processing by getting rid of distractions while hindering those who resist his spell.
In combat alone, he is worthless, but he's always the deciding factor for a situations conclusion.
I see what you're saying, but consider: There are interesting narrative avenues if you DO lean hard into the idea that some spells actually literally have an element innate, objective evil. Which implies a) the existence of objective evil, which would be a wild thing to explore in and of itself, and b) that there is something about this spell which ALWAYS results in this objective evil being empowered/spread. perhaps casting these spells rot the soul, leading the caster to gradually change alignment, their personality subtly shifting into something more sinister over time. Perhaps the spell is linked to some kind of world-wide curse, and each time it is cast, somewhere, somehow, the casting always results in more harm done than any benefit it could possibly provide in the long term. Both of these raise their own questions which would be really interesting to explore.
A pure and stable form of magic being poisoned and corrupted due to mistakes, or poisoned on purpose in a way that hurts its users and causes harm, has always been my favourite magic trope.
Its done in the book series Malazan, its done in warhammer 40k, and personally i think its most well done in the Wheel of Time.
Wheel of Time and malazan never treat this magic as inherently evil though, and i suppose this is the first reason why it works for them.
Average word bearer trying to persuade you to join chaos be like:
In one of my own projects, I'm working around the idea of bloody magic being something that's not strictly 'evil' per se, but is instead a route to power one can take that can be very powerful or very dangerous depending on how you handle it.
The short and skinny of it is that power dwells in blood, and whether that is given or taken changes the potency of that latent power; so if you were a craftsmen who poured you own body into your works, you would have a potent magical artifact, but so would the unscrupulous mage who spent ages juicing rats for his wizard jamba.
This even goes down the rabbit hole of people who rely too much on the blood of others for power find their own capabilities use to the nutrients in their own blood hindered, and thus blood magic used recklessly will put someone on the path to vampirism of sorts.
My whole idea was to make a form of magic where it has two definite uses, where one can be said to be 'good' or 'evil' on a superficial level, but actual concrete classification eludes a thorough pass. What if you were tricked into giving someone your blood? What if you use a fallen ally's blood to cast a protection spell to save dozens of lives?
You can't come to any conclusions about what makes certain magic 'good' or 'evil' without accepting that you need to take the intent of the caster into account as the primary means of doing so.
In my fantasy world dark magic is Eldritch in nature. It is extremely powerful and can do things beyond normal magic with the downside of slowly eating away at the user and great consequences if not used properly.
A simple solution is the one in Final Fantasy. Black Magic is not evil in itself. It just encompasses the offensive traditionnal spells.
(while White Magic is defense+healing. Red Magic mixes Black and White Magics. And Blue Magic is the weird and unclassable spells).
on the topic of ancient/black magic in dungeon meshi (since you used it for your thumbnail so I'm assuming its at least tangentially related to why this post exists), the question of what black magic even is or how it's different than other forms of magic is not something that a majority of the worlds populous knows about, but is universally outlawed thanks to the influence of western elves who know more details about it but are secretive with it. I won't say more than that since the show is currently airing and I would hate to spoil people who haven't read the manga like myself, but it can be gleaned from the fact that marcill studies ancient magic and all her flashbacks show her learning about dungeons and how they work that ancient/black magic is DEEPLY rooted to dungeon creation in dungeon meshi, and I will say there is a fantastic reason within it's mechanics for it to be outlawed
but different cultural opinions do happen in dungeon meshi as well from this, mostly in the form of resentment that most other races have for elves who see most other races outside their society as the "foolish short lived peoples who would never truly understand what's at stake." this, compounded with the fact that they refuse to tell anyone WHY black magic is bad, only that it is, and politically force and strongarm themselves into ANY situation they find where it's in use to take custody and control of the situation, makes elves VERY disliked outside their borders, even when poeple know that there's probably a decent reason for it and that black magic probably shouldn't be trusted. marcill, does NOT share those sentiments however, and is researching black magic on her own for her own reasons and aspirations that will be lightly touched on in the coming weeks, but moreso explored in a second season of dungeon meshi as it enters its final arks (dungeon meshi is only like 97 chapters long and a complete story, so 2 seasons at the rate they are going would cover the entire series)
The magic system that I've been cooking, there is a big emphasis on it's subjectivity, how you are sometimes more utilizing concepts than actual elements (if you create fire, do you imagine it as the sense of warmth or a searing force?). The main character would in fact be a dark wizard and he would offer both the counterpoint and understanding for the fear of his craft.
There is life and beauty in the dark, nocturnal animals, the restful silence of the night, it is the very essence of things hidden so there are many-a wonderous things to discover, a whole world people normally don't even acknowledge. But the things stalking their prey also prefer to remain out of sight and if you reach carelessly into the pitch dark, you won't know what may meet your reach. Will it scurry away or swallow you up?
In my setting dark magic is described as a form of Magic that fullfills one of several conditions and is typically only usable in ways that are Morally grey or Harmful.
1, Bypasses or Overwrites free will, This makes any form of Mind Control spell be classified as dark magic.
2, Damages the Fabric of the world, such as Creating an Exposed Singularity or Messing with time.
3, spells that Involve or Inflict Memories that are of a Traumatic nature onto a subject as using Trauma whilst can fuel some of the most powerful magic due to its nature even if it can forge a hero it can just as Easily give birth to a monster.
4 Anything Harnessing the Void or powers from | |(roughly meaning beyond the container of Reality outaide of reality and the Void's true expression is |Void| ) due to their potential to cause Damage on the scale of Destroying or bending laws of reality such as accidentally turning off the concept of Gravity for a Few seconds on a Multiversal scale or straight up deleting physics even if you can use it to Pull limitless energy from the danger is just way too high for it to be considered safe especially considering you need to be a Near Top tier caster to even have have a chance of pulling it off even in an unsafe manner let alone a successful manner and along with that powers from | | Can even do things like Bypassing cause wnd Effect.
5, Magic fueled by the concept of destruction (pure destruction powers)
I do find this comment section very interesting. There are some interesting views here. Something I was pondering about while reading was that wizards usually are renowned for their intelligence. And it is often (not always) a requirement to use magic properly. That’s why I think it pains us so much when magic systems follow illogical rules or there are restrictions in place that make no sense. (Oddly enough that is something a classic wizard would also be frustrated by). I find that I admire the wizards in stories who are both intelligent and creative enough to use their spells in unconventional ways. Or those that are bold enough to defy nonsensical taboos and are willing to challenge public perception. Or lastly those who deeply question when power is misused, but understand that the world is not black and white and a problem may require a solution nobody really wants to consider. Alas, those stories are few and far between. And that is a bit unfortunate.
There is a webcomic called “Lone” and the main character is a necromancer, I think it uses dark magic in a great way, she isn’t an evil main character either
Evil exists as both an objective and subjective stance. So long as the magic is against a systems moral order, it is objectively evil. Context really defines the quality of a works systems. After all the concept of evil is just a tool, how its used defines its quality, not the other way around.
Most dark magic revolves around either giving great sacrifice or using it to act evil deeds, some spell are used or have been used mostly for harmful and destructive purposes, that's why they fall under the category of forbidden !
There is also spells that are banned by specific groups and cultures for different reasons !
Necromancy is just old fashioned AI
I always think of Dark Magic as capable of "corrupting" the weilder
Mind or body deterioration, Addiction, etc
Well with necromancy u could say that the soul is doomed and the person feels terrible pain while u use them. And it also corrupts the earth and user. That way there might still be reason to use it. But man it certainly should have a good reason and it would make sense for it to be forbidden. There the cultures using it might be the actual outliers
Great point. I've always disliked the black magic trope too when it's not fleshed out. It just feels like lazy writing. I liked the depiction that Dungeon Meshi did, where so called "black magic" is literally just ancient magic that has become taboo because people are superstitious about it, partly because it's powerful and can do some strange things.
I am not a fan of how the dark trope is typically used. However, I wouldn't describe it as "lazy". Writers allowed to stick to script if that is what I choose. Respectfully, I will less interested in the project.
Dungeon Meshi already had me hooked with their take on the classic RPG mega dungeon but the grip gets tighter whenever they discuss magic. From the culture surrounding magic to the mechanics of magic.
Remember, everything is okay if you are the MC
"Murder is evil"
"Well that depends on who you ask"
Please...
You've missed the point. If we agree that murder is evil then murderers are our antagonists and a story can be told about that conflict.
Most people who believe murder is wrong also believe in scenarios that justify murder. That's another opportunity for a story since we may disagree on where to draw the line.
Please note, most of the items on your plate were once alive
@@humblegallipot I won't get into semantics about murder. Just keep in mind that it doesn't mean killing. What I'm saying is that the "perceived wrongness" as you seem to portend it, is implied in traditional story-telling. Dark magic is dark because people perceive such practices as dark. That's already in there. You can point to the humorous double standard towards mind control like you did in the video, but it doesn't really speak against the established narrative tropes.
My point is this video could have communicated the same point without the, to my mind, obsolete take on how the dark magic tropes need more thought put into them, conceptually. They really don't.
Nothing "needs" anything. The video doesn't present a recipe for a "better" story. It's a recipe for a story I would enjoy.
I dislike when "dark magic" includes the typical list rather than considering the values of the individuals and mechanics of its world.
I think the most common way to portray dark magic is not by misunderstanding a spell's intended function, but by having the spell's origin or system function in a questionable moral way in the first place, like magic which requires human sacrifice would in most settings be dark magic. though this still requires the society in question to deem human sacrifice as taboo.
I tend to view destructive magic (Less Azula firebending while tweaking and more like a Fireball), extremely extended mind control of a living being (A few hours at most is pushing it, I think a few minutes at best), and spells that are basically torture devices (Crucio or something mimicking Chinese Water Torture) are bad, and Necromancy as literally just being able to replace machinery and factory workers, which is slowly happening right now with robots and AI.
Undead usually don't work food related jobs either because of skill or because many societies in my world see customer service jobs as a way to teach humility, and also health reasons (Zombies are literal corpses).
This very much depends on setting. In DnD and related properties there are explicit gods of evil, and often one or more gods of evil were directly part of the material and magical creation of the setting. In those instances dark magic often exists as magic created by one of them, one of their servants, or which is in some way intrinsically tied to their domains / conceptual elements. The arbitrary "Evil Magic" trope is often created by writers that are basing their world building off tropes from established series that actually DO have justifications inherent to the world's mechanics, but without putting in the hard work of world building those reasons into their own setting.
Alternatively, as a second example, you can just have types of magic that tend towards abuse due to their conceptual ties. Chaos magic isn't inherently evil nor Order inherently good, yet the psychological effects of excess order or chaos will tend towards those labels "functionally" being accurate in 99% of cases. In the most extreme example, order in inherently necessary for speech, memory formation, thoughts to lead from cause to outcome, etc. In that case you end up with someone that is overly precise but perhaps lacking in imagination. Meanwhile if chaos enhances creativity and imagination but undermines those other concepts, you almost immediately go irrevocably insane. Chaos is easy, as it inherently makes no requirement of those in its power, while order is difficult as it inherently requires constant and sustained effort. Fantasy authors will often bend their universes over backwards to keep the positive and negative effects of order and chaos on individuals because they want their universe to be "balanced" or because they have a romantic notion of "order" as actually being the bad guy of the two, but it always undermines the story. Even within our own life experience between the lives of individuals that are blighted with excess chaos and order, it is consistently where chaos reigns that the highest average suffering occurs.
I love this trope but I agree it's usually presented in an limited manner. I believe both of us want to see more creative things out of it though you seem to hate it because of the bland ones while I am excited with the good ones. Bottomline we want to see the concept of black magic played within the work.
Evil magic would be charm spells, those that effect the living mind, Command, charm person and Dominate person are all just names for spells that could be used to violate consent in any possible way.
meanwhile, I have a character who is technically a necromancer since they will revive individual organs to put in a recently dead person to let them recover. their magic life saving surgery.
or you could make someone who uses shadow magic to protect sleeping children.
i'm loving this, and the bringing up the concept of morality being diverse and interpersonal. one thing and definitley have a lot more come to your content, is more referencing to content that has this issue, and having (if you can find) content that actually shows this point of perspective
Good point
Morality itself still isn't subjective though, as there are such things as universal principles that people no matter the culture or context.
The Nightcaster game on the original Xbox had you playing as a wizard, and 4 schools of magic you could use at any time, and 4 mage classes you could choose to be at any time, including dark - but it never affected your character's personality or the ending of the game, which was ultimately about saving the world from its equivalant of Satan.
That said, if I would define "dark magic", I would go with GRRM's way of defining it. "Only death can pay for life" is a quote that encapsulates how blood magic works in his books, which I would therefore define as "dark magic". If a form of magic specifically requires suffering, death, or ill-intent as a "fuel source", I'd define that as inherently evil.
Some magic is considered evil to others, whilst some see the same as good.
One has to understand what their story's sense of morality and good vs. evil is, so these sort of things are rounded.
Counterpoint to mind control spells being “always evil” argument: controlling someone’s mind to HELP them regain their own control of it
mental magic being used for therapy is a fun idea
This is a plot point in the anime Villainess Level 99. The main character can only use "Dark Magic", which technically isn't evil and actually replicates a lot of the same effects that Light magic does (they both are great at Healing for instance), though the aesthetics of Dark Magic spells tend to be....rather gruesome (every time Dark Magic is used to heal someone, the anime censors the healing as a joke to highlight this as characters look on in abject horror.)
Dark Magic instead gets a bad rap because A. It's rare for humans but commonly used by monsters...and B. The last Demon Lord was a Dark Magic-user.
Good anime.
I always felt “dark magic” was more of a social category for specific paths of magic based on what’s considered taboo or inhumane. So any magic could hypothetically be classified as “dark” but broader society tends to classify generally the same stuff as it
I'm open to "evil magic" being a thing in some settings because of the way fantasy works. "Fantasy" broadly describes stories, worlds, and concepts in which things we consider to be emotionally powerful or morally correct translate into literal, physical power and matter. The usual mechanism that allows this process is magic. We like to see people get their ill-understood abilities from "good" sources like altruism, humility, purity, and to use them toward good ends. These concepts are hardwired into humans to be emotionally powerful, so it feels right to see that experience validated in real power. But "good," prosocial concepts are not the only ones that resonate with us in this way. We also respond to murder, theft, and power seeking -- things which are generally wrong but undeniably *resonant* to that same space within us. If "magic" is simply a catchall term for "physical law or process I don't understand, which translates resonance into physical power," then yes, technically it's not the Unknown Mechanism that's good or evil. But it's closely bound up with concepts we consider good or evil, and I would say that qualifies Dark Evil Magic as a legitimate thing in some stories.
That said, a lot of fictions could stand to think through their edgy magic a lot more thoroughly, and a lot of them don't need dark magic at all. What actually *is* the dark side of the Force? And you *cannot* convince me DnD's school of Necromancy is unilaterally more evil than Enchantment.
Usually necromancy is considered evil because it enslaves or drains souls of living beings. In most universes it's a taboo, the soul is sacred. Simillarly a spell to destroy a soul is often forbidden. So evil magic's source of power is suffering. It doesn't matter how you use it. If you save a village from monsters by using dark and forbidden magic, it won't make it less evil. So it all depends on source of magic. Sometimes using demonic or hell powers is considered evil sometimes not. It depends on the fantasy world we're in.
It's specially interesting to use what you said with the harry potter spells.
Most of their spells that are categorized as dark magic are just battle spells or simply things the ministry doesn't want you to have, but the unforgivable on the other hand, are true dark magic imo, they feed the user with an emotion and need the user to have that emotion to cast, and need the user to love that emotion to work at max capacities, those being, love of killing, torturing and controlling, becoming a psychopath, a sadist and a controller?/manipulator?(sorry, i do not know the best word in english for it), it creates a cycle where the more you use the more deranged you get and the more you use.
I like the interpretations where dark magic is the one where you steal the magic from other creatures, so the ‘dark mages’ are out there killing unicorns and fairies, makes for more interesting characters if done right
That is probably why my favorite "dark" magicians are those in witch hat atelier. Those magicians who are "bad" only so because they don't follow the draconian rules of the "good" magicians