The Absolute State of Localization Discourse (feat.
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
- The broader discourse behind localization has always been a hostile one, and as of the past year or so, it has only gotten worse. Here are my two cents on the topic and how we got here, as well as the input of 6 knowledgeable anime fans on the subject. I WANTED to get this video out a month ago or at least early in March, but life decided my throat should suffer bad sickness throughout all of February.
Huge thanks to everyone who agreed to be interviewed, including @PauseandSelect, @shaybs2466, Gundroog, Lightfellow, Manaban, and Saro Arsten.
Another huge shoutout to Lonecrit for helping me with my questions and intro.
0:00 Prologue
14:32 Meet The Cast
16:01 What IS Localization?
20:21 Those Streaming Services, eh?
24:09 Subs vs Dubs?!
28:13 What Should Localizers Think About?
38:10 How Do Localizers Impact Anime?
46:16 How Do Localizers Impact Demographics?
51:44 Concerning Trends in Anime Localization?!
1:00:54 How Do We Fix This?
1:10:24 What IS Generative AI?
1:13:53 Does Generative AI Have A Place Here?
1:29:06 Coda
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Thumbnail by Chumbo from Harem&Ecchi Club
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Harem&Ecchi Club: myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid...
All CZcams and news/article sources used in this video: docs.google.com/document/d/1C...
Localization videos YOU should watch: • Localization-related v...
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Music:
“The Battle” by SawanoHiroyuki[nZk] (Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn)
“The Ruins as They Were” by Kotaro Nakagawa (Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch R2)
“BEHELIT” by Susumu Hirasawa (Berserk 1997)
“Everything but Me” by lasah x Lemm
“Forbidden Memories” by Saori Kobayashi (Panzer Dragoon Orta)
“black throb” by Kikuo (Blazblue Centralfiction)
“World Adjustment” by Yoshiaki Dewa (Heion Sedai no Idaten-tachi)
“know your enemy” by Yoko Kanno (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex: 2nd Gig)
“Past and Language” by toe
“Rappu ha Kan no Tamashii da! Onore wo Shinjite Ten wo Yubisasu Dotou no Otoko Kamina-sama no Teema wo Mimi no Ana Kappojitte Yo~ku Kikiyagare!!” by Taku Iwasaki (Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann)
“Those Who Dwell in Shadows” by Garoad (VA-11 HALL-A: Cyberpunk Bartending Action)
“Arid Sands (Night)” by Fumie Kumatani (Sonic Unleashed)
“Saiki-Sen” by Toshihiko Sahashi (Mobile Suit Gundam SEED)
“Nightstalker” by Kenji Kawai (Ghost in the Shell)
“Actor’s Anteroom” by raito (Melty Blood: Actress Again)
“The Ancient Magus Bride’s Main Theme” by Junichi Matsumoto (Mahoutsukai no Yome)
“Yellow Line” by James Shimoji (Redline)
“Mystery Girl, Again (Labyrinth)” by coba (Pokemon Heroes)
“Fellini no Karei-naru Tojo to Karei-naru Nichijo to Karei-naru Kogeki” by Yuki Hayashi (Gundam Build Fighters)
“Dogfighter” by Kentaro Haneda (Macross)
“Rustboro City” by Go Ichinose (Pokemon Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire)
“Bullet Station” by Jun Senoue (Sonic Heroes)
“Fudo Yusei” by Yutaka Minobe (Yugioh 5D’s)
“It’s You” by Ulpio Minucci & Marcia Woods (Robotech)
“Painting the Town” by Jeff Williams & Steve Goldshein (RWBY)
“Limited Again” by Daisuke Ishiwatari (Blazblue Calamity Trigger)
“Opening Stage” by Naoto Tanaka (Mega Man X6)
“Let’s Get It On” by Infinite (Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future)
“Longing Wish” by Michiru Oshima
“Torment” by Evan Call (Violet Evergarden)
“New Faces In The Dark” by Loathe
“MAY FAILURE BE YOUR NOOSE” by Lingua Ignota
“Rakugo Shinjuu no Teuma” by Kana Shibue (Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu)
“Rinkaku” by Yukari Hashimoto (3-gatsu no Lion)
“Oboroge na Genzai” by Akito Matsuda (Hibike! Euphonium)
“Milky Way” by Madison McFerrin (Carole & Tuesday)
“Salikawood” by Hitoshi Sakamoto (Final Fantasy XII)
“She said, "Don't make others suffer for your personal hatred."” by Shiro Sagisu (Neon Genesis Evangelion)
“Hana to Mitsu” by KOKO
“Lucifer” by GARNiDELiA
“Acrossgust feat. Hatsune Miku” by Hiroyuki ODA presents HSP
“Sneaking” by Takayuki Negishi (Rin: Daughters of Mnemosyne)
“Akudama Drive” by AIDA SHIGEKAZU and Maiko Iuchi (Akudama Drive)
“Wasteland nostalgia” by Ike Yoshihiro (Ergo Proxy)
“Distorted†Happiness” by cosMo@Bousou-P and RegaSound (Caligula Overdose)
“Tsukihime:re” by Keita Haga (TSUKIHIME -A piece of blue glass moon-)
"Theme of Love" by Nobuo Uematsu (Final Fantasy IV)
“Kagen no Tsuki” by Yuji Yoshino (Spice & Wolf)
“Nafs at Peace” by Jaubi
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Huge thanks to the aforementioned interviewees who agreed to partake in the interviews for the sake of this video. As for everyone watching, for the sake of all things holy, if there is any discussion about AI or dubs and whatnot in localization, PLEASE keep it civil!
If you would like to support the production of this channel and future lengthy projects such as this, please consider supporting me on Ko-Fi, where you will find a compilation of the full interviews I used bits of throughout this video: ko-fi.com/serialnavelgazercbf
All that I want is to understand the creator's intent in their art. Any changes made by another party only serves to obscure that. It is strange how the French, Polish, and Russian books/films I enjoyed have never had the same public issues as Manga/Anime. I could just not know about them, but this conflict seems to be very localized.
This was a really interesting watch. As someone not as familiar with this topic, it was interesting to get a lot of different perspectives on it to really get a better introduction to a topic so close to something else that I'm very passionate about.
Hope to see more of this on your channel CBF!
Thanks, Pete! Glad this vid was able to do its job, there.
Appreciate the effort of reaching out to more voices. It's the kind of noise on the internet that keeps on ringing yet I've avoided to navigate the situation.
Interesting you've picked people who're at least bilingual. Based on the situation described to me here, it's rather grim. I'm gutted to be reminded this is supposed to be an era where anime is reaching more people than ever and growing.
Yet again, money from the top aren't dribbling down enough to people who have the best interest for the medium.
Glad my efforts seem to have paid off. Admittedly, when half of my participants are either Russian or Georgian in ENG-based servers, another does closed captioning for anime releases, and another still is Joe from Pause & Select, it sorta just fell into place in that respect.
Yeah, much of the conversation being opened by the sheer globalization and expansion of the medium sadly means more opportunities for outrage merchants and the mal-informed on twitter and CZcams to be all twitter and CZcams about it. Some localizers aren't really helping the situation with their attitudes towards their work and the people who combat them, but then when they're constantly being yelled at by randos on the daily for singular lines from 5-7 years ago, I can see why they're bitter and dismissive a lot of the time.
Tale as old as time, eh? Very little of the money going to much of the actual talents that act as liaisons for the works we love internationally, just as very little of it goes to the people who animated said works to begin with.
58:32 AAYYY TEAM JYCT REFERENCE IN THE VIDEO! LETS GOOOO
Watching it now, and I gotta say, best video yet man. Great job!
Thanks, man. Glad to here it.
Also, that ending XD
I'm American, and even I think metric is superior.
1:26:02 I really hate this guy's way of thinking. The anime fandom isn't a unitary entity. It's not a genre in of itself - people will like certain genres, other people like other genres. It's broad. It's diverse. As an entity, it's many different niche fandoms. So if someone is an ecchi fan and is here to watch ecchi anime, why the fuck would they give a shit about how One Piece is being localized? How does that negate their negative experience with their own genre's localization at all, and how does that make their experiences with low-effort localization better?
It's this exact mentality of arbitrarily assinging universal "worths" to something and using those made-up values as an all-encompassing point to try and deflect actual issues other fans might be facing within their own little crevice of the community that makes discussing topics like this so unbearable. This point doesn't exist for any reason other to say "Why should we give a shit about these guys, look at the thing I think is worth more!" to try and deflect criticism coming from sides they don't want acknowledged.
No, I don't care how good the One Piece localization is, nor any of those other shows this guy mentioned. I don't *watch* them. What point does this prove to me?
I won't say I wholly disagree. I can see where Shaybs was coming from, esp considering his similarly exhausted perspective, but I understand why that dismissive statement would rub you and others the wrong way, as if a niche ecchi show isn't of enough note or worth to merit people understandably complaining about its dubious localization.
I have not watched the full video so forgive me if I come off as disagreeable. I am not entirely against modern localization. Theirs fantastic examples of it being done well Ryan holmberg and his excellent translations of alternative manga artists such as yoshiharu tsuges work. Zach Davidson and his great translations of numerous leiji Matsumoto and shigeru mizuki manga. The issue is when is more broad though in my honest opinion. Shin Chan and ghost stories being the most egregious examples of localization completely altering something and localizers spreading misinformation. The dub writer for ghost stories worked on grave of the fireflies and 5cm per second and yet still insists ghost stories is what he should be remembered by and he truly changed anime dubs for the better. It’s an odd stance to take considering we know from his biography he already failed in his careers as a screenwriter and advertsing agent. We also have numerous evidence that ghost stories was already an established franchise in Japan based off a childrens yokai novel series, before the tv anime it had two live action films and an ova. Shin Chan is more unethical at least to me because that franchise was already massively popular and had a 52 episode childrens dub. So creating a gag dub completely fucking with characters back stories and adding numerous jabs at the bush administration, and swearing was a bizzare choice. Especially when adult swim already opted to do a faithful dub of super milk Chan another surreal childrens anime. It’s also the fact season 3 of shin Chan doubled down on all of that the year after the author passed away. To the point ex funimation employees confirmed they basically gave up because they were constantly arguing with tv asahi over the license. I’m not saying gag dubs can’t be good I love excel sagas dub but then again the anime was made to be completely different then the more satirical manga which hadn’t even started it’s main conflict yet. And Steven foster really shines in dubs like colorful and cromartie high school where the anime is inherently absurd and he’s not fucking with it for fun. I much prefer dubs such as speed racer and star blazers as many who worked on it clearly had a passion for the orignal work and creators. Where with dubs such as ghost stories and shin Chan and hell even Hajimete not gal many come off as downright spiteful, hateful, and dismissive,toward the original content. But again it usually happens with shitty Ecchi anime anyway. But do I still think that makes it ethical? absolutely not especially in a franchise as huge as shin Chan. So should we entirely replace localization, No should we begin using ai as a tool to enhance localization to become less politically biased. Yes. But I’m not for ai entirely taking over. The fact of the matter is it’s never really been an issue in Japanese novel translation, it hasn’t even been in live action film translation, so why are both sides seeing it as a political issue? It isn’t, it’s an ethical issue and should Star being discussed as one. There’s still great translators out there but most of those people lived in Japan half their life like Ryan holmberg or have actual degrees in comic and manga history so they can translate more alternative artists. Most modern localizers don’t nor will ever have that privelage. Again I know I come off as a hater but I’m fed up with the issue because it been shown to be done much better and by more professional people. Localization is important but it’s been done better by others, and I will continue to support them and not those who mindlessly argue on Twitter. Anyways that’s my take I’d like to know your thoughts?
No worries, and I appreciate the detailed response.
I think I heard whispers about the Shin Chan dub being a travesty, interesting to hear more of it from you and about the head writer of the localization. And yea I heard pretty conflicting reports regarding how the Ghost Stories dub came to be and that the anime was a lot more successful than the popular story behind it made it out to be.
I do still think AI requires significant and sweeping regulations for how companies can use generative text and ESPECIALLY voice AI for localizations (or in general) before I can consider it to have any kind of even limited place in these fields.
I also completely agree that this being a political issue is stupid, but you know, culture war nerds and grifter types be culture war nerds and grifter types, so now a bunch of uh...politically motivated anime fans let's say, they're very vocal about this in a "muh woke localizer politics" sense as opposed to a "many bad localizations or bad moments in localizations are awkward, a misread on the character/situation, or just generally disrespectful towards the work and I don't like that" like it should more often be. It's just that most of the examples in anime that get pointed out are "gamergate/patriarchy" lines of which there are few. At least with manga, the changes are even less defensible and more sweeping, and even in games, sometimes it might be due to personal politics and culture clash for localizers and other times it's just them doing something really awkward. Anime and especially manga and video games aren't a one size fits all in terms of localizations, but while I think the issue is blown out of proportion (especially for modern anime), more work needs to be done by studios and companies to avoid and penalize these kinds of SNAFUs in the future. Certain localizers calling the bulk of their detractors "nazis" and whatnot aren't helping, though, and neither do other fans doing the same. It's all so stupid.
@@SerialNavelgazerCBF I’ve been Called a 4kids defender for not liking modern dubs. I’d much rather have 4kids then all the localization bullshit we put up with now. They say it’s hypocritical to say 4kids is fine but what modern localizers do is not, these people after 20 years still fail to realize 4kids was marketed for children and people who hated them were mostly high schoolers in anime clubs who thought japan was this paradise just like anime . With the way localizers act I don’t wanna be chastised for just wanting translations and localizations to be direct and not clearly politically biased. It’s not hard other asian novels and Japanese films never have that issue. But again those have actual translators working on them and not localizers. I don’t think it makes me a weeb who thinks japan is like anime when I prefer subs more now as an adult. I can’t stand crunchy roll and funimation dubs when they use the exact same 30 people they have in Texas. Is it their fault? No it’s easier to do. But I believe the my hero dub was so popular because they got new vas. Meanwhile in Japan they still have seiyuu who have been active since the 60’s still working. There’s way more variety in their actors, some say “that argument is worthless don’t you soy out hearing dios voice in something else?” Yeah but keep in mind Japan gets a whole lot more anime then we’ll ever get and with the industry going back so long. I dislike localizers because they can’t let shit go the changes they made must be absolute because the show failed or the worse excuse “it was funny and that was the only way it could be marketed.” Which for shin Chan I find absurd because we got doraemon faithfully dubbed 2 years after and it did perfectly well. I believe 80 or so episodes and two films were dubbed with the bang zoom cast. They contradict themselves a lot. Hell it’s not like this defenders know about the industry either their just defending those people because they voiced their waifu, aka since they dubbed a character I like they must be directly tied to the Japanese production process and therefore their Celebrities. This is how a lot of them speak about their fav English vas and it’s downright para social. I think 2006 ie ghost stories and shin Chan is where they truly alienated everyone and when people truly stopped watching dubs and moved more towards subs.
I personally believe the late 00s-early 2010s was probably the peak era in terms of the mix between well-known and high quality talent maintaining relevance or rising through the ranks through a ton of roles, and a lack of particularly dubious moments or dodgy ethos. It was technically more of a period where Funi's Texas site and Ocean's Canada site and a few other companies and locations were all there was so talent was slimmer. However, a lot of dubs there still felt quality without there being any of the kinds of things I noticed a lot of dubs (and subs) pre-2007 and post-2015 get flack for.
The doors expanded more out of sheer necessity with the post-simulcast era with the California and New York sites for dubbing companies forming or being part of the same company, but even still yea a lot of sites are pretty limited and the removal of the remote set-ups people could/had to use during 2020/2021 is a real blow. Most dubs for especially popular shows, HeroAca included, have a pretty good mix of new/relatively fresh talent and well-established names, not that it hasn't been the case for a lot of popular shows even back in the days of early Naruto in the mid-00s, but yea. Options are limited for talents who would have to choose between Texas and New York and California and whatnot.
4Kids def gets a lot of hate but yea as you and Shaybs said, their approach was kinda how it had to be for these US networks to be able to market anime on TV, even for kids. This was well before the relaunched Toonami which is more adult-oriented with its late night time slot, which itself is already proof of how the landscape changed from the late 90s/early 00s to the late 00s-onwards where some studios and channels for kids didn't change as much about the names and other cultural factors. Bakugan and Beyblade Metal series when their dubs were produced by Canadian studios for Cartoon Network, didn't have the same approach that 4Kids took with Yugioh, Pokemon, etc. It was fine for these shows to try to keep as much as possible while still marketing their kids anime to kids unlike 4Kids whose shows would often only be seen as suitable for tweens and up in America if they didn't tone the content down for 7 year-olds and their parents. As you said, it's people who became teens in the mid-00s-onwards who became bitter about that stuff they grew up on cuz they later saw the blood and swearing and guns and whatnot in some of these shows that were still meant for Japanese kids. Doesn't mean 4Kids didn't succeed, regardless of how silly some of the censorship could be. Gag dubs, while already controversial back in the 00s, generally have no place nowadays...though they do have more of a place than gag subs like Inukai kinda sorta has to some extent.
I don't think localizations need to be super direct, but I do believe subs should at least be pretty close translations, with localization that still reflects the language and context as accurately as possible. Dubs should be allowed a little more leeway to be a bit loose, especially for comedies, but ofc there's a limit and we all know Dragon Maid and Prison School's dubs crossed it at least once, which is still one too many. Glad some of these words are banned unless already deemed necessary for subs in Crunchyroll/the ghost of Funi. It's kinda silly seeing JelloApocalypse sneer at that when, obviously most of the time when they're being used in localizations, they don't reflect the characters or contexts, they reflect what certain localizers would probably say in such positions given their own personal viewpoints.
I will also say, on the parasocial angle, seiyuus definitely have it worse in this regard in terms of how fans in Japan and overseas speak about or interact with them. If someone actually has a vested interest in seiyuu in America and not just "I don't care for dubs, I stick to subs", they're usually just as if not more parasocially dedicated than for fans of dub actors. Then there's Japan and we know how bad things can get there in that respect. For dubs, a lot of fans definitely have their favorites (I myself am partial to Patrick Seitz, Cristina Vee, Steve Blum, and several others) but we also know how much worse pay is for voice acting in especially anime dubs compared to seiyuu pay in Japan being, at the very least significantly better than animators.
@@SerialNavelgazerCBF your absolutely right about that aspect being worse in Japan hideaki anno is the best example of a die hard otaku growing to resent that culture because of the fans he had. I also keep in mind most not all but most English vas were failed theatre actors, comedians or even sceeenwriters, who only went to anime because that was all they could get. A lot of em wouldn’t even be successful today without anime. This naturally leads to some arrogance and wish fulfillment of living out that failed dream. At least how I see it. There needs to be like an actual discussion about it not an argument like a civil debate of some sort. I’ve already spoken with some of my Japanese Twitter friends and pukuji who has been bringing the issue to Japanese ears. A lot of em think it’s absolutely ridiculous and those people must be mentally Ill to do that. This is legitimately what Japanese otaku believe based off the numerous comments I’ve seen and there might be some actual hope for the future now that more landmark manga never avalible in English are being brought here like Ashite no joe, because in kodansha’s words “the market is maturing.” So maybe one day japan will crackdown to some extent, you already have the author of Hajime no ippo, saying the authors word is absolute. Granted he was speaking of the anime adapatation in light of the author of sexy Tanaka san’s suicide, but he stated it in a broad sense. I have hope it will be resolved at some point but because of the state of society right now and all the vas on Twitter who will straight up attack fans instead of having a civil discussion it will be a slow burn but I think in the next decade or so this issues gonna burst. It’ll take a while tho. But imo opinion miss marchis Twitter tirade and especially her response to asmongold will be the straw that broke the camels back. Jello as well.
@@SerialNavelgazerCBF I think the doesn’t help that Al Kahn the executive at 4kids literally said in an anime convention that “manga is a problem”, “kids don’t read”, and “Japan is over”
Voice acting AI hell no
I say screw AI we don’t need it. Anyway would love to talk to you on Discord sometime.
Ai is going to replace english VAs with the ability to use the Japanese VA's voices translated into english. Give it a few years!😂