Are continuationists heretics?
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- čas přidán 27. 03. 2018
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I believe in sola scriptura that the bible is complete, and that it is our main authority, I do not consider dreams or visions to be scripture, but they can, and should be backed by scripture before it can be considered a true vision
Cessationists have cut and pasted their Bibles and are not adhering to Sola scriptura on the Holy Spirit baptism (an experience post-salvation) and ALL of the gifts not ceasing until "that which is perfect is come" and "but then face to face" and "then shall I know even as I am known" (1 Cor. 13:7-12). This passage directly tells us when the gifts will cease. I am going to follow Paul's command to "quench not the Spirit" and "despise not prophesyings" (1 Thess. 5:19-20) and "covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues" (1 Cor. 14:39.) and to "covet earnestly the best gifts" and "especially that ye may prophesy" (1 Cor. 12:31 and 1 Cor. 14:1).
Sola scriptura. Have ye never read?! You are doing the exact thing that you accuse us Bible believers of doing; not valuing scripture above all else! This is hilariously ironic and the height of hypocrisy.
The difference between Eastern and Western thinking.
Many many Muslims are coming to Christ and they report He came to them in dreams.
Both Jesus and Paul said believers will do miracles. Ergo our Commander in Chief is a continuationist.
Where exactly did Jesus and Paul say that believers will perform miracles?
Jesus is in the theology of Muslims, they just don’t think he is God
Just because someone got saved through a dream doesn't valadate Apostolic gifts today LOL
@@Frost_actual Exactly. Also, many of these reports are just preposterous and demonstrably false - sensationalistic reports that have no way to be verified.
If you know the Scriptures, you know that God does not operate that way. His truth is not based in a subjective experience, but in verifiable historical truth. Christ rose in history and appeared physically to hundreds of eyewitnesses.
cessationists deny the Holy Spirit. They are well lettered but reject the Holy Spirit.
You misrepresent Cessationists.
Im a continuationist, but why in american Christianity, do continuationalists always allow women preachers?
That’s a great question. They don’t always. Calvary chapel is a good example of that. But I have noticed too that there is a high percentage of continuationist sects that allow for women “pastors”
@@subjecttochrist I've never thought of Calvary Chapel as a continuationist organization.
@@Mesa_Mike yeah. They definitely are. Not all calvarys folow the same structure, but - they use a slogan related to matters of the Spirit, that “the Bible is their seatbelt.” I like that… helps protect against abuses of the Spirit.
Why are there 108k views on the most debated topic in American Christianity and only like 6 comments? LOL
@ModernMozart1104 it's because the comments were off for a while
Questions for Mr Todd friel .if cessatiinists belive all gifts are gone what about wisdom? Discernment? The gift of faith? The list in 1 corinthuans 12 includes 9 gifts .do all cease? No wisdom? No gift of faith? 2 question if God never speaks to any christian like in acts when holy spirit told phillio ti preach to ethiopian . Than since it is God who calls paators teachers etc. How does one know he is to be a pastor? Does he self appoint? That seems to go against God being the one who chooses also hiw are you to know if God has called you to stay exactly where you are or go to china? Africa? Isreal? And 3rd questiin do yiu think nabeel qureshi was false? In seeking allah finding Jesus nabeel shared that the evidrnce moved him but it us hard for a muslim to leave his faith and family he aaked God for a vision and dreams amd the vision and dreams pointed him to surrender self repent and belive the gospel which he based on what scripture says but similar to corneilus in acts the vision only pointee him toward scripture not away from it he still needed to acceot what the word of God says so are you saying even though nabeels expeeience is similar to cornilius nabeels waa false but cornelius was true ? Please address these questions im a video address nabeel qureshi and many muslims like him who left muslim faith prompted by a dream or vision also address dr michael brown have the debate flush this out in great detail. Im not saying yiu are wrong but im very confused because it seems all pastors of any denominatiin feel " called" by God how do you know?
Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof from such turn away. 11 Timothy 3:5
Cessationist saying that we value dreams, prophecy, visions over the written word of God is the equivalent of us saying that cessationist don’t believe the Holy Spirit moves at all anymore… So maybe go to the word of God instead of speculating…
1 Corinthians 14:1
[1] Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
"Prophesying" in general is speaking the Word of God. If you utter something that's not contained within Scripture, or have taken it out of context to imply a different meaning than intended in Scripture, then you are not prophesying.
Hebrews 1:1-2
[1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, ....
"In these last days He has spoken to us by his Son..." not the prophets. We have no need of the prophets now that we have the Word of God Himself speaking to us through Scripture.
That's not to say that God through the Holy Spirit won't give you some guidance or intuition about something from time to time, but that's not prophecy.
God's word has taught me so much and am spirit filled, spirit lead and in the mighty power of the spirit of God
Talk about cessationism in india you'll be excommunicated because every one of us in our churches here are 1st generation christians and that too because God is working miracles, healings, prophecies and other great works in all of our lives otherwise no one would come to christ in india that how strong the people are here in India, Holy Spirit is working always everywhere and everytime in all these 2000 years that's why Christianity still exists because God exists and is working through his Holy Spirit in all the church history
amen praise God 👏 🙌
I think , I think, I think, both gentleman can say all scripture has ceased, they lead each other into doctrine which Christ never written.
Those who believe that vision and dreams still happens my question is who will interpret it to be from the Lord. It should still be biblical that in the witness of 2 to 3 witnesses a truth shall be established. Study all false religions and you will see that it started with 'the lord told me or an angel showed me this' the Scripture is sufficient and the only source that binds the conscience of man.
I wonder what the 3rd man on the cross thought? Have the gifts finished? Or do they continue? I’m sure he didn’t have a clue but he still got into heaven.
Grow up all of you and stop arguing!
Cause it's definitely not important whether the bible says a loved one can be healed of illness whether Jesus can guide his children and local church through prophecy. That's not something that's important at all because its not as important as the bare bones gospel.
How about YOU grow up and realize that just because people argue and aren't courteous doesn't mean that it's not important to debate at all.
This is rather tricky. Obviously we remain very skeptical of people claiming revelation through dreams or a word from God, Jesus told us to be aware of false prophets, and I believe that scripture is the main authority, but if that’s the case, God had to speak through the prophets to begin with. Scripture was divine revelation. Also God does not change, if he used to do it, he likely still does. So I believe in a strong dependency on scripture but am open to what others have to say with a large skeptical lense on.
The sheer irony and hypocrisy of cessationism is actually staggering! How, in all honesty, would anyone really point to the sufficiency of the scriptures ostensibly to replace the substance of the scriptures??? The substance of the scriptures teaches emphatically and abundantly, to trust not in the scriptures themselves, but in the one whom they testify, that is God; a real, active, powerful person--not merely a script, or historical fact. My faith is in a person, not in a book--NO NOT IN A BOOK! The Bible is only a testimony, a witness, that points me to GOD. His stated will is that through the knowledge that is written, I will develop faith in Him and actually come to Him. Since He is neither blind, deaf, dumb, mute, disabled nor dead, He will inevitably interact with me and commune with me--this is the basic premise of true biblical faith. Cessationism actually limits people to the knowledge about God, by no means brings them to the knowledge of Him--the latter is irrefutably, unequivocally and inescapably experiential.
Look at some religious hypocrites, whom in His day hid behind the claim of "sufficiency of the scriptures", Jesus exposed them as fraudsters--they didn't really want to come to Him, the just wanted to remain pretending that their faith was in the scriptures:
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
Is there even one teeny weeny little video on CZcams just one of someone speaking a language they never spoke before and somebody close by that does speak the language understands the person speaking and understands them praising God like happened on the day of Acts? Just one teeny tiny video. just one.
I’m a continuationist. Wasn’t until I read the Bible. I simply believe we should pursue prophecy and not disregard it. We should desire healing and tongues, and not forbid them. I am quite convinced it is biblical. I am insulted and grieved that this is even a question. My life belongs to Christ. He is Lord. God raised Him from the dead. He justified me by faith alone, and he is coming again. I affirm the full sufficiency and inspiration of Scripture, that same Scripture that tells me that believers may do many signs and wonders and that they should seek the gifts of the Spirit. I encourage my cessationist brothers and sisters to judge the hearts of continuationists and stop inflating theological disagreement. Grace and peace!
Once you begin to allow that there is prophecy today, you are setting yourself up to accept another gospel.
"Desiring healing and tongues" is not the same thing as practicing them.
Nothing wrong with desiring such things. But universally we all have both healing and tongues in this modern world via ordinary means.
There is not a single scriptural argument for the cessasionist position which is why cessasionists resort to ad hominiem attacks rather than biblical arguments
I agree. There isn't one. There's more than one. How about a contest? Name one word that best describes the Bible. I go first: Perfect....your turn...
Making you a heretic is not ad homininem
@@nonamesthesame From your logic, 1 Corinthians 13:8 says Knowledge will vanish away. Has knowledge ceased??
Secondly, it says they shall cease. My question is when?? Show me from the Bible the date it ceased 😂
You cessationists are funny
@@Aninetehradactul "Making you a Herectic is not as hominem."
The one who goes about calling one a Herectic for no reason is the Herectic and is attacking strawman and ad hominems 🥱🤧
@@raphaelfeneje486 I’m not sure why I said making. I think I meant “calling”. It’s not ad hominem. You are what you believe, and if you believe in modern gifts of prophecy and the like, that makes you a heretic.
there’s a common smugness that seems to accompany the Calvinist and Cessationist. Ie “if you don’t arrive at the same historically debated and diversely concluded doctrinal position as me, then you just haven’t matured in the Lord as much as we have yet”
So one need not hold to certain beliefs ???
That’s a very rational and correct viewpoint.
Conversely cessationists are the ones who have not really matured much because you can tell by how they interact and treat people. There's a lot of fruit of the spirit missing
@@timwadley948There’s fruit of the spirit missing because they don’t babble incoherently and call it the Holy Spirit?
I have attended non-charismatic churches for over 40 years. I have witnessed much fruit. Much selfless giving, serving with humble hearts, joyful praise and worship, passionate ministry to the unsaved, sound teaching and preaching from God’s word, modesty, strong witness for Jesus, etc.
That is not indicative of an absence of spiritual fruit.
You are making an uncharitable generalization.
@@Open2Reason Likewise - I've seen so much fruit and Biblical gifting exercised within my church resulting in the growth of our relationship with God and countless others being reached with the Gospel. I also attended a more charismatic church in my past, and experienced the same - lots of good came from from that body. No denomination has a corner on the spiritual market, though. And there seems to be many who seem obsessed with certain spiritual gifts while missing sound doctrinal teaching (and the converse could be said as well). Not all will speak in tongues. I never have, and rather enjoy being able to understand what I say and pray, but that's just me. If the Holy Spirit never chooses to enable me to do that, that's fine! There's no requirement that we all do it, and it's unbiblical to suggest otherwise.
Blessings!
A lot of Charismatics are immature and confused, worldly but not all of them. When they teach they will mislead intentionally or unintentionally, can't always tell, but they tend to be absolute and accusatory, albeit falsely. Ignorance abounds in Charismatics, e.g. "if you had more faith/obedience then God would heal you." Obedience to the Charismatic? Do I smell tyranny along the lines of Roman Catholic one world church family?
Knowing Scripture identifies what God said so that way the counterfeit can be identified.
I am cessationist not until I read the Bible
Cessationist MUST go outside the scripture to get to the position that the gifts have ceased today. They cannot provide a chapter and verse which says ANY gifts ceased before Christ’s second coming.
Which is ironic because they are all about staying "inside" scripture.
@@ModernMozart1104 totally
Contest: Give one word that best describes the Bible? I go first: Perfect......top it......
It is really unclear what you are trying to say?@@Jomartproducts
Offer any examples of Acts 2 type tongues today ??
Continuations because nothing in scripture or the ante Nicene father taught that it ended or was going to end in their lifetime. To the contrary, scripture commands us to pray for the give of prophecy and the ante Nicene fathers all taught it still existed. If yo believe Sola scriputra then you believe prophecy exists today.
What is greater, God or scripture? If you say 'God', then why confine Him to a book? Of course scripture is true, but has God decided to conceal some things from man in time, yes or no?
The word was God and the word was with God. They are the same
@@Aninetehradactulthat is a clear reference to Christ read a few verses down and it will tell u Jesus is the word
If there is not real theological or biblical reason for cessationism we have to ask the question why is the hostility contiunationists
might i suggest something
Mark 15:10 NASBS
[10] For he was aware that the chief priests had handed Him over because of envy.
envy allowed the religious leaders to reject the healings and miracles of Jesus and hand him over to pilate . They justified their rejection of Jesus even claimed he had a demon , somehow overlooked sick people made well all because they were jealous and fearful that their monopoly of religious control of the people was being threatened
as for the abuses and excesses of charismatics and pentecostals no - one would deny real money existed because counterfeit did
No, Continuationists do not believe that anything God, the Holy Spirit, communicates is an extra biblical authority...
You dont understand/know the Holy Spirit.
Both of you, "Leaders" remember, you will be held accountable for every word.
Go ack and read 1 Cor 13.8-13.
Read, and be quiet, and learn to listen to the Holy Spirit. John 14.26. He is your teacher.
Then go back and read John chapter 14 through 16 and you will be getting to understand a little bit about the holy spirit's role in the life of the believer.
John 14:26 was spoken by Jesus to the remaining 11 apostles - not a very good source for continuationism.
In fact, all of John 13-16 was spoken by Jesus to the apostles only. It stands to reason that much of what he spoke was for them exclusively - especially John 14:25-26. Otherwise it makes no sense.
Am continuationist , and it started on the day of my salvation when Messiah came to me and told me what i must do to be saved. When Christ speaks to me in dreams and visions he has never gone beyond his word and yet he not limited by any human limits, so read your Bibles and understand the will of God
Thank you. 🙌🏻
I'm so tired of Calvinists and cessationists accusing everyone else of not being true Christians, at worst, and "immature Christians" at best. 1 Cor. 14:1 "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." Did Paul retract that statement later on? I must have missed that verse.
Where did these gifts go for 1800 years ???
Away, just as Paul said to the Corinthians! Very good point friend
@@Aninetehradactul gifts of the Spirit will be here till the return of Jesus Christ 1cor 1:7
@@spod11 [7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ] 1 Corinthians 1:7 ESV
Hmm. That doesn’t seem to say what you think it says.
@@Open2Reason be careful that you dont have a form of godliness but deny the power or gifts of the Spirit.
@@spod11 I have much to say about the “form of godliness” reference from 2 Timothy 3; but I urge you first of all to acknowledge that no passage of Scripture plainly says that all spiritual gifts will continue until Christ returns.
I always felt that there should be a middle ground on this. Like be practical. Sure gifts are real! But tongues for instance was never a nonsensical gibberish it was real human language. And and interpreter was used… the people falling on the ground writhing around acting ridiculous and making up nonsense… that’s wild and not biblical. Be reasonable haha
Hebrews 1:1-2 = cessationism.
The vast majority of continuationists believe the Canon of Scripture is closed.
They make a distinction between the original 12 plus Paul and Matthias who closed out the Canon of Scripture - and the 70 plus the other 11 named such as Apollos. The Greek word Apostle means " sent ones" We still have them today. We call them "missionaries" and "church planters"
The apostles were not mere missionaries. They carried the authority of Jesus demonstrated by clear and indisputable signs. Not so with missionaries.
The apostles were foundational pillars of the church, along with the prophets. Missionaries are not foundational.
The office of apostles is not perpetual, but ended with the death of the remaining 11, and Paul. Their names are the ones mentioned in Revelation.
Jesus gave them special powers, knowledge, and recall abilities; which is why we have a New Testament today.
When Paul said that all Scripture is sufficient, he meant it.
Scripture (Bible = OT + NT) has authority, but GOD has reserved sufficiency for the work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection. If you look to Scripture to save you, you will find yourself gravely disappointed, for Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) is INSUFFICIENT to save us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Only Christ Jesus alone, our final sacrifice and High Priest can (and has) accomplish(ed) this for us.
You know this because of scripture...
@@bigtobacco1098 A very important disctinction.
@@bigtobacco1098Just be sure that you don’t practice “Christian Talmudism” by seeking to replace the role and the work of HOLY SPIRIT with your own intellectual interpretation of the Bible. It is and necessarily MUST be the FATHER, the SON, and HOLY SPIRIT, NOT the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SCRIPTURES.
@@WatchList-xf8ic and WHERE would I read this so I may know ???
The gifts have not ceased, however a divine revelation in the modern sense must line up with scripture, there may be a different way that God may show that person a vision but when one has a vision, it must be prayed over and one must look to the bible to see if their vision lines up with the character of God, if this is so, then yes God can give revelations, but they must be consistent with the rest of scripture.
That doesn't make any sense what so ever. Any argument you make about prophecy today would need to apply back when it still happened. So would you take the word over a prophet over the Bible back in the OT? IF they concredict? NO. The Bible is the superme authority it is cannon. It is the standard by which all other teachings are Judged against. It doesn't mean God doesn't speak only in the Bible, it s the highest authority on what God has said. So if a Creed says Jesus is God, it doesn't mean that God is speaking through that creed. The Creed all reflects what the Bible says, A creed however isn't inflabable we need someone way to discern if its from God or not and thats what the Bible is, the way ti Judge what is truth and what isn't
The demon of Cessationism is a liar. Period. I hope this helps to clear up any confusion.
Calvinism is Nestorianism and was declared a heresy by the church in the 5th Century. So, you have no place to accuse Charismatics of heresy when you have your own to deal with. Cessationists are nothing more than modern day Saducees as well.
You need to be careful and avoid the ad hominem and ad hoc arguments. I've yet to find a prominent Calvinist scholar that has even the slightest grasp of the historical, and theological context of the Tanakh (too many liberals in OT academia). There may be some out there, maybe not. It seems to me that a lot of Calvinists end up leaving Calvinism when they realize they're not truly Orthodox.
You want to use the free will God gave you to lick the boot of Nestorius or Augustine?
Are there abuses, heretical teachings ,and misrepresentations of the Holy Spirit in some Charismatic churches? Unfortunately, yes. Are there scandals, misuse of scripture, and abuses of church authority in liturgical churches? Sadly yes. Are there heresies taught by Calvinists that are influenced by Papists? Unfortunately, yes.
Your soteriology is trash, your pneumatology is shallow and pathetic, and the self righteousness you show in bowing to doctrines of demons & men are unbecoming to a follower of Christ.
Paul wouldn't be in your corner either, have you ever really studied Romans 13? Neither would the brother of the Lord (James) be in your corner. For people who says they love scripture, and hold it in such esteem seem ignorant. At least a couple of the chief reformers seemed rather indignant about removing the Epistle of James from the New Testament! All due respect, get off your high horse, and repent of your error!
"Are there heresies taught by Calvinists that are influenced by Papists? Unfortunately, yes."
what heresies? original sin?
Can you explain how Calvinism is Nestorianism please?
@@ModernMozart1104 he can't he is just repeating an idiotic claim made by the heretic Jay Dyer who isn't even a Christian
Arguments from ignorance is a major problem
For the record I am not a calvinist who is trying to trap you. I just want to learn.
This is embarrassing for the cessationists camp. You mean you had to go outside the scripture to prove a point?? It's safe to say cessationists are Atheists that believe in a God. But that that God is not powerful 😂
I grew up with a lot of cessationist doctrine, but as I read my Bible I realized that was not what scripture teaches, in fact quite the opposite. All the gifts of the Spirit are still available to us today. You all are missing out!
You don’t really believe in scripture
All Calvinists are heretics
Source?
Continuations because nothing in scripture or the ante Nicene father taught that it ended or was going to end in their lifetime. To the contrary, scripture commands us to pray for the give of prophecy and the ante Nicene fathers all taught it still existed. If yo believe Sola scriputra then you believe prophecy exists today.