What If Your Army Gets Nerfed?
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2020
- Sometimes, wargaming armies get changed drastically, and sometimes they even get discontinued or phased out. What do you do then, especially with all this plastic and/or metal?
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“For that much money you could buy a top-tier space marine army.”
“But I don’t want a top-tier space marine army. I want 200 hormagaunts.”
Dude this is me, currently building a nid list that feels like the second wave of a planet-scale invasion where some of the big bugs start to come down. Gaunts are my favourite!
*Looks at my sea of Chaos Cultists* I can relate, my dude. I can relate.
90 Grots for my Grot Army. Waaaaaaaagh
My 2nd ed Guard army of 90 infantry can relate. "You could have another couple of Leman Russ"
"I could.....but tanks have no blood with which to drown my enemies....and 90 guard laugh at multiple Lascannons"
To be fair 200 gaunts can just sit on objectives and if the oppenent doesnt have blast you can probably hold
"Who doesn't like skeletons? We all have one."
Laughed out loud at this. Great video.
That’s why I go with the rule of cool. Even in a tourney, it’s all about fun and meeting new people.
I agree "rule of cool". I'll enjoy painting, playing and coming up with lore/narrative.
Also, whether it's at a tournament or your LGS, everyone will think you're an absolute legend if you show up to play with a fully painted F-Tier army, have a sense of humor about it, and try to win with them anyway. Let the other guys chase the meta. Having fun is more important.
Facts
L
You can still do both at the same time.
"Who doesn't like skeletons? We all have one." Idk atom. In the words of the emperor: "skeletons are the most agitating framework known to man"
At first, I thought Uncle Atom was talking about the skeletons in our collective closets. :-D
But also remember "the Imperium has skulls everywhere to remind humanity, that even in its barest form how beautiful humanity is,
"Needs more abs!"
"everyone has one"
Not if I have anything to say about it
@@ChulioRCHulio "All colors are rendered equally inferior when compared to gold."
I used to have a Dark Eldar Army based around "street gangs of Commoragh" - It had Baron Sathonyx as the HQ which made Hellions into Troop Choices. The rest of the army was Scourges, Jetbikes, multiple swarms of 20 Hellions each, and a few of their jets. I had so much fun, and I just didn't want to do the venom raider spam that everyone else was doing. Then the next Dark Eldar codex came out and they removed Sathonyx, and it kind of just killed it. Sure I could take a detachment that was heavy on fast attack, but I did a lot of conversion work to make my own Sathonyx model based on the art work. Add to that the removal of the Mandrake character Kheradruagh and really my two favorite named characters to field were gone.
I ended up selling that army and my Thousand Son heavy CSM force (this was before 1k Sons got their own codex) to some friends who I knew loved those armies. My wife and I had just had a kid and I wasn't really gaming at the time anymore or painting for that matter.
Now I'm gaming and painting again and I'm glad I'm back
I was the guy with an army of Squats...
I had a Huge army of squats... :(
As a brand new player I can only imagine your pain... I can't stop imagining how amazing Dwarves or Skaven would be in 40k today
I'm the guy with an _incomplete army_ of Tomb Kings :(
@Alec Holland Gun jack in necromunda does have M3 T4 and is quite short and wide
@Alec Holland czcams.com/video/w2pxnpArd5A/video.html
Just join the WAAAGGGH! Scared of buying an army that might be nerfed? No problem! We Orks are almost never at the top of the meta, we just love love to krump things with lots of DAKKA! Afraid your Army won't be getting any new models? Never heard of it! As an Ork player every set can be an Ork set if you are creative!
Waaaaaaaaagh!
That´s tha Ork way! Tha spanners and doks gettin´ tha boyz up ttha be propa´gits!
I have so much fun with Da Orks. We'ze Da best. Waaaaaasaaagh
Also you don't have to worry about models being outdated, got like 2500 points of (new) models I bought back in like 2008, still all the same models being sold new 12 years later. Playing Orks is just the certainty of having a good time building/painting/playing Warhammer 40K.
I don't play Orks but Ork players are some of my favorite people (online anyway- I don't have a lot of experience in person). Everyone else will be whining about something except an Ork player, who pops up to say, "Just krump the things! Waaaaagh!" It's refreshing, lol.
Always if it happens, i remember how much i love the minis and the army itself. Atm i work on drukhari hellions for my wych cult. They are not the best atm, but who cares? Next FAQ or point changes are comming. And our hobby has so many different facets..
In addition, the competitive community is often very fast in evaluate units and armies after the last faq or whatever. And that's fine. But often gets wrong.
Examples:
1. Iron Hands buff - Tau drone Spam (everybody thought, tau drones are gone - the opposite was true)
2. 9th edition - orcs (everybody thought, orks are gone - they won one of the first tournaments)
3. 8th deathwatch - "unplayable", until the vanguard tactics dude came up with a genius list
And so on...
So especially for the young wargamers:
You are new in 40k? Somebody told you, you took the wrong army? No man/woman, you didn't. Enjoy your minis and the game, love the hobby, open your colour pots and start painting!
Your parents bought the 'wrong' tank? Maybe two months later it is great, so start reading the lore and take out your glue. You'll love it, i promise.
✌🏻
yes. This.
Definitely right therr
I love reading the more competitive analysis from a chosen few content creators, but also ignore 95% of generall community "competitive" comments. The way most people write comments on social media, you would assume that each and every one of them is a top table player of the highest competitive calibre - which is, surprisingly enough, not true and they are just regurgitating half-remembered quotes from other, more competent people.
I'm playing Beast of Chaos in AoS and Word Bearers in 40k , so for me the answer is pretty simple... MY ARMIES ARE ALWAYS NERFED. So, basically, every game for me is a challenge and every victory is moment worth to remember.
The problem with things like Eldar flyers getting nerfed is nobody looks at WHY people were running them. The Craftworld codex is basically 80% worthless flub, compounded by the fact that a lot of that is also 1997 (or older) failcast resin. The range is basically abandoned except some newish models that have now been nerfed as well. The codex wasn't viable outside key units, thanks to lack of balancing.
I've played one craftworld game in 9th edition... 10 pts for guardian defenders is extremely painful... similarly the dark eldar kabalite warriors and their venoms...
I really hope that all of this will be remedied when the new codex for the eldar armies hit, and that a lot of their range gets updated to plastic...
@@VayleGW In 2070, if Geedubz has anything to say about it.
You just gotta learn to play with what you have. I played Space Marines and Custodes when they were bad and I play them when they are good. When they were bad I brought stronger lists to keep up with friends. Now that they are strong I tone my lists down to still have good games with friends. I come from magic where if things are unfair they get banned completely so it could be worse
Yea today I played eradicators for the first time and my friend got upset and quit the game. I should tone it down and not bring them next time because it’s not worth losing a friend over. I’m just going to stick to having fun and bring out the eradicators for tournaments.
My favourite army got nerfed in the lore rather than stats. I used to play 40k Daemon Hunters and I loved Grey Knights. They were this elite force that was the underdog in fighting the chosen enemy, daemons. A desperate last chance army in a hopeless situation. Then they brought out the Grey Knight codex and it completely changed the lore of the army into super gods who never loose. They became completely over the top and it killed all enjoyment I had for the army. They were now great on the tabletop but that's not why I got into collecting them.
I played Eldar back in the 90s. Same deal, a brave last stand in defiance of extinction. I come back to the game 20 years later, and they're this unstoppable, unkillable force.
Because I enjoy watchung my models die, I did a 180 and collected Guard for a bit.
@@Mikey__R Eldar are unstoppable and unkillable? hahaha that's a good one
@@Grim67894 yeah, I came back to 40k in the last days of 7th ed. I watched a batrep by Striking Scorpion, where a big Eldar tank destroyed two Baneblade variants and an entire squadron of Russes in one shot. During that batrep, the Guard were tabled and don't think the Eldar took many casualties at all. 8th ed may be a bit more balanced, but the Eldar can still be pretty filthy. I've yet to have a game of 9th.
It might not be accurate, but that batrep gave me the lasting impression that Eldar weren't for me.
If your Nurgley boys can beat Eldar, then more power to you!
@@Mikey__R If you are talking about craftworld Eldar, then they are in a pretty bad place in 9th edition. They have a big roster of units, so they are not bottom tier, but they are the least powerful I have ever seen them in 40K.
Lone Donkey I will say though that if you are willing to tailor your list to comparatively go for the win you can still do well in 9th with Eldar... one key advantage we have for grabbing and sitting on objectives is how our dedicated transport the Wave Serpent is possibly the best in the game, very tanky by with more teeth than a Rhino, so I’ve seen armies do well that take three of those with Dire Avengers inside and the Wave Serpents can be quite hard to get off of objectives especially for their points cost, along with powerful buffing from our great psychers. I will definitely admit though that this sort of list is kinda lame though lol.
What also makes nerfs worse, is that they'll keep buffing things over like space marines (or keep power creeping with new units) while not touching other armies.
Nobody likes buying, building, painting their favorite models only to see it struggle to kill a single enemy troop. You want your army to feel capable and not pigeonholed
Amen, every day a new armys comes to battle with my LoN army the more work it becomes for me to even do decently
@@MrSolidsnake293 I gave up on LoN after the last generals handbook... mortek guard still costing as much as graveguard is absurd as mortek guard literally do everything better and basically fulfill the same role.
@@VayleGW good luck trying to convince anyone in the GW community,
Without Nagash Arkhan, and nighthaunt allies, LoN struggles to even function let alone win....
But noooooo why would you play an army without a center piece says everyone.
How about freedom to play unique armys instead of meta play based off shitty tournaments
Vayle you will never convince me! Just bring Nagash and Arkhan! Why would you play an army without a centerpiece??
I honestly adore your videos. So soothing to listen to your thoughts.
Also, if you still have the Edition Rules, and your group still have their Edition Books, you don't have to move on. Even if you do move on you can still play a game here or there using your old stuff; rules, books, models et al. Me and my friends still get together for a big Fantasy 7th Edition game every now and then and I still use my Tomb Kings or my Wood/High Elves. I updated my Skaven bases for Sigmar, started a couple of new Armies and we have a lot of fun with that, but we also have a lot of fun playing old rule sets.
If you aren't playing competitive tournaments, those books and systems and models are all yours. You should feel free and empowered to use them even as the competitive scene moves on. This is what makes Wargaming great when compared to say Video Games, we own everything about our games and have absolute control over what we do or don't do. If you like your old rules and models, and your friends have fun, nothing is ever gone.
If your stuff just steamrolled everything in the first place you need to ask yourself why you hate the nerfed rules, and what the nerf means to your friends and not just yourself. How much more fun does he nerf make their games; the answer is probably lots, and you should probably be glad of the nerf.
Mr Sharpe try your tomb kings out in Kings of War.
A few dudes in Australia were still playing Tomb Kings in the past few years at tournaments. But they're all loaded up with Sepulchral Stalkers, Necropolis Knights, Chariots, and Ushabti because the meta leaned toward multiple wounds... that and not many people want to shuffle a hundred skeletons around for a few hours.
I feel like a lot of Warhammer Fantasy armies got axed. I have 6k points in Wood elves and 2K points of dark elves. While still technically playable, like the tomb kings, they don't stand a chance in a game with a supported army.
The living City of Sigmar is really good. I play it with my Elves :)
I stubbornly thought I might be able to play Grand Alliance Death a year ago, but the magic and artefacts are the weakest of sauce, and none of the TK battalions are legal in AoS 2. Now I'm converting what I can play Deathrattle in the Legion of Sacrament. Arkhan always was my main man anyway.... because Settra is no mere man.
I think most ppl are in the half way point - they aren’t competitive tournament players but nor do they enjoy constantly losing because their army has been left behind or nerfed. I ended up quitting 40k and now play more board games etc because I like knowing that when the game starts everyone has an equal chance of winning
Why I quit 40k shortly after picking it up. Too much money and time spent on models just to scoop them off in handuls after the first turn.
Profesional entomologist (and tyranid player) here. Thanks for the shout-out to the bug folks!
Thank you. All your posts are informative and helpful as well as having a mellowness I distinctly lack in my every day life. It's so relaxing to paint and listen to what you're saying. Enjoy your weekend
I play Kings of War so units tend to buffed to improve internal balance instead of being nerfed. The balance is way way better and since there are no army codexes or books, everyone's army for the most part is released together.
Mohd Gaddafi Tell that to Herd players.
@@davidwasilewski stampede? Just use them as minotaur chariots. I believe losing avatar of the father was a big blow for sure. That I don't agree with.
My advice would be, don't chase the meta and be disappointed when it inevitably changes.
I've choosen the OP army in today's meta.
Gets nerfed
*pikachu face*
I'm only properly getting into 40K now, I chose Space Marines just to practice painting for right now, but I'll be using Salamanders since they're my favourites. Once I start playing itll probably be Death Guard or Demons of Nurgle since they're my favourite faction.
or pick space marines and forever be viable
@@freezinfeet there is something nice about knowing that your army will always be useful in the meta
Heck, I've been using Age of Sigmar Skellingtons for my Pathfinder RPG games. Painted them up, stuck them on transparent bases, used them as regular old animated skeletons.Worked beautifully.
We ork players don't call it codex creep, we call it "MOAR DAKKA!!!" :-D
I have a friend who’s army of choice won’t be getting new 9th edition rules until next year, so he’s given up on it. Moved on to Legion, which a lot of us around here play.
*laughs in french* You can't nerf bretonnia anymore than it already has been, peasant!
In all seriousness the best thing to remember is that having models you love is more important than having the best rules. Tomb Kings and Bretonnia are still playable, and the models can be used as proxies for other stuff if you want a buff. Furthermore, we never know what the future may hold! They did announce that their is a Warhammer: the old world game being worked on, and that's really exciting for me and other people that play the outdated factions.
I have seen a realy cool
Nighthount army out of Gostly green painted Bretonia ;)
You could even use your Bretonnians as Flesheater Courts - it’s how they think they are!
@@hailhydra7959 That's a grudgin'!
I see FEC get mentioned everytime I talk about or see others talk about bretonnia, curse GW for making FEC lore this way, its tormenting :(
And no, I'd never run them as FEC, but I have a lot of respect for anyone that customises their FEC/LoN army to look like risen bretonnians.
Lily Zayli Sorry dude, I do have a Bretonnian army on squares myself though and I’ve been thinking about making the leap
@@hailhydra7959 Oh really? that's awesome! If you are thinking of converting them to circle bases I'd recommend against it unless you play a couple AoS games with them first, or have at least considered buying Square-to-circle converters online.
Mine are still on squares because my friends are fine with that.
Here is a picture of some of my army if you are interested: www.reddit.com/r/ageofsigmar/comments/i44jyz/bretonnia_army_update_some_sisters_of_the_watch/
Things can come full circle too, my iron jaws and bone splitters were left in the dark and were nerfed via no updates for years, the new army book has given them fresh life , I find them very competitive :)
I just recently built a list for Song of Blades and Heroes that was based on the Tomb Kings, so I could use all the sweet old GW minis.
Easy, just play against people that are not aware of the latest changes! :P
Modern problems require modern solutions! 😀
Or people who don't care..my friends and I are still rocking 8th edition.
@@E40kGeek_Tactical same ❤️
Or play with peaple that are cool with that. There is currently a big community that plays warhammer 6th edition only
40k:
Squats never made it to 3th if I recall correctly
Elysian drop troops died during 8th
Renegade and heretics didn't make the jump to 9th
Kroot once were a small but independent faction. Now they can only fill up auxiliary support detachments independently.
Corsairs where just like Kroot once a small but playable faction. Now they don't have units or rules for small games.
Fantasy / AoS
Britons died during fantasy times
tomb kings didn't make the jump to 9th properly
Dogs of wars have been discontinued as an army but a lot of the models found a new home.
Same for the elves with the transition to the mortal realms.
Kislev is a faction most people don't even now existed in 6th editon fantasy.
kislev
Oh and the Tallarn, Valhallan,Steel legion, Vostroyans, Pratoreians, Mordians. I think that's all the official regiments that they no longer produce models for..now probably a lot of people will counter me and say "oh well they still have rules however". This is true, but are you telling me this cadian is apparently a Mordian Iron guard? AM/IG regiments have lost their identity after GW decided to either discontinue them because little income for their line or possibly the move to fine cast when pewter was being redone. But we all know how well finecast went..
@@sanchez444 Last I checked out the Forge World webpage, they had some Deathkorps of Krieg and Valhallan IG units..
Otherwise the only place I know to find very similar looking models for the regiments you named are Victoria Miniatures... A bit more expensive than the GW IG units available, but cheaper than Forge World.
Ben Mills FW doesn’t produce anything that’s Valhallan, you can link it if you think it is however.
Hey man, just got into 40k about a month ago and your channel has been super helpful!!! Keep up the great work
My precious Brittania is gone, not even Blood Bowl recognizes my noble knights anymore.
Atom thanks for all your videos! I decided to finally sell the Tyranids and forces of Cygnar that have been gathering dust in the closet for 10 years and jump back into the hobby with something new and exciting. Back then I had many people living around me to play with, but now coming back into the hobby on my own, during a quarantine, your videos have been very helpful and given me the motivation to get started.
Now that I'm doing this without people around to influence me I can try out a new game that I like and my wife might play, I can make terrain for the first time and I when I can see my friends again I will lure them in to the hobby with inspiring models and tables, just like my friends did for me.
I pretty much exclusively play Middle Earth SBG and in a recent FAQ they changed the way a character's banner worked, reducing it's effectiveness dramatically. Quite a few people seemed to have an issue with this but I just said:
"Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!
spear shall be shaken, shield shall be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now, ride! Ride for ruin and the world's ending!
Death! Death! Death!"
Tomb King’s the Kings of War has you covered full rules and even Adam can play it. We call the empires of dust
Best table top war game IMO!!
i feel this for many editions chaos marines were always struggling since 4th edition as it tended to come out early in the codex cycle. For me it comes to painting my minis really nice and enjoying that part rather than getting mad i got crap units that cost way to many points. Enjoy the Art lol.
Sadly, one of my favorite armies was destroyed by Games Workshop decades before I even got into the hobby. Luckily there are plenty of third party manufacturers that have stepped up to the plate over time. The Squats will rise again!
If the hints by GW lately are right, they'll do Squats again soon - as in probably 2021.
If the Squats do rise again, it won’t be very high. 😀 Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminions czcams.com/video/w2pxnpArd5A/video.html
7:27 to quote a guy from a game of AL I attended "and as you can clearly see with my Ithilien Ranger, I'm a monk". No one cared, we just chuckled and rolled our dice
Ikit Claw being one - a great warlock who could equal Teclis magically. A skaven who through thirst for magic knowledge mastered All Magic except Orc and Goblin. Love seeing a High Elf players face drop when he cast High Elf magic back at them -they used to rush to the Skaven rule book to see if this was true - and it was lol. Then they removed him for a while and came back with a rubbish new back story and was a crappy Level 3 warlock who can only cast skaven spells.
My tomb king army noooooo😢 I had 8000 points of tomb kings that I had been collecting for years all down the drain
What, did you sell them? I'm adapting some Legions of Nagash to have a TK themed legion under Arkhan, since he's technically still a Liche Priest... hell, so is Nagash.
@@PartisanGerm There's also the Ossiarch Bonereapers now, who have sort of a tomb kings thing going on. And they're all part of the Death grand alliance, so the army can include units from both Legions and Bonereapers.
@@Bluecho4 Yeah, definitely some Tomb Kings vibes from them, but the lore and mechanics don't really match at all. Grand Death isn't worth taking though, I do like to be able to have the slightest chance of winning a game.
@@PartisanGerm Fair.
I’m a new player who’s just created his first Kill Team and am looking to buy more models, but I’m unsure of the next step I should take.
I just got into the hobby, specifically kill team through another CZcamsr, TheCosmonautVarietyHour. I eventually stumbled upon your channel and have found your videos to be very helpful + well-made. I know it sounds like I’m buttering you up to get a response, because- I am. I’m trying to decide between making a second kill team (Greyknights) or fleshing out my current kill team (Tau), which is just the Fire warriors box (Strike/Breacher team). Due to quarantine in my area, I’ve had little to no luck finding irl games with other players. I know that some of my friends/ family members would be interested in learning to play; so that’s when I started to consider building a team for a different faction. I eventually stumbled upon the Greyknights, whose playstyle really contrasts that of the Tau’s. However, once my local game stores allow in-store playing and I’m able to find games more frequently, I might need a more solid Kill Team.
My Final and actual question; What do you think will provide more long term enjoyment to a player on a budget? Variety (creating a Grey Knight kill team), or further fleshing out my existing kill team (Tau infantry) with more powerful and complex units?
This reminds me of the first time I went through this " new edition angst". Back when third was introduced, my group was pissed! I had to plink weapons off three quarters of the models in my army ( orks) .
After a few weeks of annoyed " fixing" and studying the new mechanics, I realized my Orks now were quite lethal, as compared to the previous edition. This was borne out in a few games where my opponents who played Blood Angels and Chaos Space Marines, now denied plasma missiles, got drowned in a sea of boyz they couldn't hope to shoot fast enough!
Anyway, I have learned to take the wait and see approach,not being into competitive gaming, it doesn't affect me all that much. I shall continue painting what I enjoy, despite the fact it may be lousy on the table in the current meta.
Thanks for the video, this ought to be part of the " Every Other Sunday Show" discussion at some point....
Not an entire army, but in the past couple weeks my favorite build of Exalted Sorcerer just got removed as an option.
So did my heavy bombardment hammerhead
You’ve just convinced me to keep trying my Nids despite their 9th nerfs, thank you, I love your vids
Case and point - have a backup chaos undivided army, it can intake ANY model, beastmen/lizardmen?-demons, dwarfs?-Dark mechanicus/those evil fantasy dwarfs with mecha centepieds, necromancers' armies?-Decorations.
Mark my words, Squats are overdue for a buff
I just play armies that I think look cool, it works every time, even when I'm losing my army looks cooler than theirs.
You wouldn't believe how much "Tomb Kings" are OP in The 9th Age (Undying Dynasties)...
No kidding? I haven't really checked out the rules yet because I've been too busy buying and converting to round bases for AoS.
There's another aspect, too. With a new edition of a game arriving - like 9th edition 40k - with all the points adjustments and new codexes and everything, it can feel like you're nerfed even when you really are not, simply because other armies got "better". You can see people all over complaining about armies that get their codex earlier than others, and I'm sure this edition will be no different. I've made a bit of cash over the years by buying people's armies when they tantrum-sell them, only to sell them myself when that army comes back into vogue.
@Sean Thompson Well, at the start of 8th, I made a bit on Eldar and Marines, then later made more on T'au and Marines again when their new codex came out. I love it when flavor-of-the-month players throw their tantrums (and believe me, they always do) and dump their armies. :)
Hearthguard guard werent used in the Fyreslayer armies. GW gave the unit and extra wound, an inch to their weapons and they were flying off the shelves. Vanguard raptors werent used in Stormcasts armies, theycmade them prominent in Warcry, now they are selling. Smart companies find ways to sell models. Doesnt work all the time. I play what I like not what’s popular or I would’ve never played Orks 🤣🤣. If you’re chasing the meta then you get what you get. Point changes dont bother me unless points dropped and i now need to buy more. I never bought a GHB just for the points like so many others.
It's funny you mention tomb kings, I literally use mine for dragons rampant now lol
I am having a bit of the reverse of the Issue. I am a Space Marine Kill Team player, I specifically play Salamanders because they are my favorite chapter. However due to the recent buffs and additions to the Space Marine waves people are seeing me as a meta chaser when I just like to field my Son's of Vulkan. I love more marine options but I don't want people to hate me just because of what I like, and that seems to be the growing case. Really hope they bring some news of Kill Team as the codexes update especially for the xenos and other imperials.
I think when people realise you've had your models for ages, then they'll understand you're not chasing the meta. Salamanders are simply awesome from a lore point of view. Lamenters would be my other favourite lore-wise.
@@bigbrowntau I am building a Kill Team of Company Vets and Sternguard with the Lamenter chapter colors decorating portions of their armor. They use flamers mixed with storm shields for heavy infestation search and rescue.
@@davetorres1893 That's cool you have a theme and intended role for them. Got a name for your team?
@@bigbrowntau They are Kill Team Forge. I name them based on their job. Furnace Is a mixture of melta/flamers bringing stead encroaching death . Lead by a Sternguard and his Intercessor Sergeant body guard. Anvil and Hammer focus more on That Intercessor Sergeant and his group screening for missile scouts or the support Terminator. It just depends on who I'm facing and how competitive I want to be. Some people feel bad getting half their specialists wiped by an auspexed Fire Drake with a missile launcher and storm bolter cutting through cowards cover. So sometimes I just bring his brother Fire Drake with an auto cannon, more shots but more chances to hide.
@@davetorres1893 Really like it. As a Tau player, I field a lot of gun drones, and a couple of specialists. They operate as a detachment from Hunter Cadre Brightspark.
I have oft' lamented the full on nerf of Orks. Back in 2006,( Me thinks) Orks went from the famed green soft cover codex to their first hard cover. The new codex was by Phil Kelly that removed all the rules that gave Orks flavour and introduced new ones that made units unplayable. I was an Ork player at that time and I saw Mobbing up go by the board. Replaced by leadership based on the number of Orks in the mob. But then elites and specialist units could no longer have more than 10 orks in their mob. So you know, you took a moral test after casualties and that meant using their leadership count because casualties meant that there were not enough Orks left to impact the leadership test. Tank bustas had to move directly towards the biggest vehicle on the table in a straight line. Psycho blasatas had their rule revoked and Orks became the only army with a heavy bolter range of 18". Ork boys were cheap, but the addition of any weapons meant the unit cost could rise as high as a space marine unit. Ork vehicles were the only ones that could get damaged by rolling 1's on plasma/blasta weaponry. At a time when a one or two meant death and a five or six meant a hit, it was 50/50 as to who got killed. So I switched to Eldar and collected most of the range so that no matter what they do, there is a way to use Eldar.
Normally, points changing never bothered me. But I do remember when the Skaven Codex came out and ruined my enjoyment of the game. I played Lizardmen and had tons of skinks and my friend played skaven. I got slaughtered each and every time we played. It was never a close fight. I was always slaughtered.
We sat down and did an analysis of the points. A skink and a skaven were about the same statwise, but the skink was 1 point more because it was "amphibious". So I NEEDED water on the table just to get "my points worth".
Excellent points you raise there sir.
Hyperbole is putting it polite. And I think you nailed it with the glass hammer.
I've had this sort of thing happen to me a few times, so I've become a bit philosophical about it now . Back in the 90's they split my beloved undead down the middle into tomb kings and vampire counts. While it ruined all my cool combos, it meant I had the bulk of two armies. Then Space Marine, (the 6mm game) had a complete rule change to a form I hated, and I put my armies away for the better part of twenty years until Netepic came along. And I've had a couple of systems completely fall over, and go off the market. (Warzone Resurrection and Babylon 5 call to arms) I still play both games despite them not being sold anymore. I've never lost my cool or sold stuff because you can generally use it down the line somewhere.
Christian Jorgensen Ah the splitting of the undead army in the 90ies. That was the last time I played Warhammer Fantasy. I played the pre codex rules for Tomb Kings with the undead models I had plus some conversions I made (filled with a chimera to fill up the points). Sadly never got to play the codex as my gaming group ended, just about when I finally got around to paint so many skeletons.
Would you also recommend having a 'back up army' that you know the company won't nerf to the ground with? Like 'Have a space marine army because they are well-loved by the company'
When I started playing 40k, people were complaining about tactical marines being worthless. I bought plasma + combi-plasma tactical squads for dirt cheap and wrecked primaris face because plasma is super effective against marine armies. They were also effective against anything in general. My conclusion was that people are reasonable, but meta-chasers are irrational and panicky at best.
Bretonnia, Elysian Drop Troops, Dragon Ogre Shaggoths (expensive metal models at that) and tomb kings
It also bears mentioning that sometimes nerfs/buffs are not just to make an army/model bad or good, sometimes they are to adjust the play style of the unit or sometimes an entire army. Same with competitive videogames where a single unit/character gets changed or nerfed and goes from being a great bruiser to becoming an excellent tank. Its not just choice of "do I keep this unit around or dumpster it?" but more "How does this unit/army work best now and do I want to restructure to its new strengths?"
I think the direction of 8th and 9th edition are going in a good direction. I know it's a bit too early to tell for 9th, but it's a pretty safe bet it will be a good edition. Imagine a world where every army book was around a similar power level and people just collected armies because they look cool and/or have a cool story. It's probably best that is not the case because I would be handing over my wallet.
You play something unique, your own.
Another great video atom
Many years ago my dog nerfed my dreadnought so I was forced to do do some kitbashing to adapt :) A long time ago I started looking into Beastmen for WHFB and even though they were bad there was a small community of people that helped make it better, even if there was a lot of honest talk about the state of the herd. Talking about one trick pony armies, the Tau Empire fit into that really well. All mech, all shooting, not much else.
Also, they fit into the phasing out thing because there's no auxiliary support, Tau Empire is now all mech when there could have been some variety. There's a lot of big and nice AoS models that could for example make a nice fit in a Tau Empire army, as Tau armour has a particularly striking aesthetic there could be armour and shields on these creatures. Reminds me of The Covenant in the Halo series, as while they are all different alien races they all mostly look the part together but alas for the Tau it will likely not be something that happens.
For GW games id recommend having 2 armies from different blocks, imperium/chaos/xenos or order/death/chaos/destruction. That way you have a better chance of avoiding beeing nerfed into the ground as they wax and wane in ascendancy. there is a lot of synergy between imperial and chaos factions that lets you soup in the new flavour of the month with some of your old models. this is trickier to do with some of the xenos but the 3 eldar factions play nice as do GSC and tyranids even if soup is worse of in 9th. Fingers crossed for special soup rules for some in their new codex (word bearers first extra detachment is free as long as it is chaos demons etc)
For skirmish games an extra warband or two is not as finacially straining so the problem with army nerfing is really only prevalent in army scale games.
Thank you, Uncle Atom. This is message that needs hearing.
I had an huge Tomb Kings army, but a little before the end world, I had to sell it cause I was unemployed.... I regret that so much.... I could not find the things I had anymore or people put the price in gold... and I live in Brazil... so it´s even more expencise due to the diference between our money and the american dollar
Ebay is murder these days.
At least Tomb Kings live on in Blood Bowl
Really? How does building a team in that even work?
Honestly I’m typically more worried about my army getting buffed and getting labeled “that guy” - as long as I have cool looking models and army lore that I like, I’ll be having a good time
Truth! Thanks for that calm and reasonable take. I will try to ratchet down my rant following your example, and also do what you did and save the best for last. In my case, what to do about it.
Codex Creep is a cheap trick used by lazy designers, and companies with bad judgement. You really got to watch out when your designer hits a certain age and decides he needs to start worrying about retirement. It’s perfectly reasonable to buff poorly selling models and nerf the most popular ones in small increments. It’s a decent way to get more balance. Ideally, you pick an army for any reason and you can make it competitive.
However, watch out when the next edition hits and the meta gets turned upside down. Obscure armies and units rarely seen before are now the big winners? That’s just greed. A popular WW2 set has been going through this nonsense and most of its veterans quit. Hordes of Armoured Cars became an easy button. Then, the rules for the later war came out and they were nerfed to the sidelines. Want to play Russians? Buy British tanks and assault gun hordes. (Notice how horde keeps showing up?). Iconic T34 lists? Meh.
What to do? DO NOT START TYPING HYPERBOLIC ALL CAPS RANTS!
Seriously. Presumably you like to play games. So grab a buddy and try out the new changes. Then, go type very constructive and fair comments. Why? The designers depend on the hyperbolic screaming to hide behind whenever they mess up. The boss calls them on the carpet because of the complaints and they simply remind him we are all crazy wargamers and cry foul at every little change. Really. They do this.
When you go nuts, you are the AntiFa guy throwing bricks and making the peaceful protesters look like jerks who ought to be ignored.
So please. Don’t go throw metaphorical bricks online. Hit them with calm, cold, reasoned and tested comments. They will do better or get fired or otherwise fade away.
Also, if a company is bad about this stuff. Sell all of it and change games. Take your buddies along for the ride.
Slightly off topic; the whole of Rackham’s At43 line got nerfed (because they blew the company up) but out of the ashes has come Kill Team Imperial Guard (UNA) and Necrons (Therians). I obviously also have Space Marine Gorillas in power armour (Khaman) and they’ll definitely get to a table some day😉 Oh and me and a mate still play At43 for old times sake.
I would have them displayed in my cabinet, just like some of my classic and new miniatures I collect to admire my paint work on them.
I can still use the Cadian Kasrkins I got as the Militarum Tempestus Scions. I did a conversion to make a command squad for the Kasrkins. I think Games Workshop were too quick to replace the Kasrkins in 2014. If they were going to be discontinued, maybe a few months after the Fall of Cadia, just to be part of the story build during the gathering of storm. Though, they did return in late 2016, but only for one week as a Made to Order.
People would still buy the Tempestus Scions still for the models itself to add into existing Astra Militarum armies or for conversions with their hot-shot lasguns and other wargears if the Kasrkins weren't discontinued.
My other units I had stop working on was the Penal Legion for the Astra Militarum, because 6th edition codex do not have the rules for them anymore. I'll probably still use the models as infantry squad, just without the PL rules for them.
I used to play Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000. There are a few armies that have gotten "phased out" that I can think of off the top of my head.
Tomb Kings and Brettonians in WHF.
Squats (biker dwarves) and Rainbow Warriors (a Samoan themed Space Marine chapter).
I used to have a Tomb Kings army (@ 4000 pts worth), but when they were phased out (among other issues with GW), I got rid of them.
After doing so, I put more time, effort, and money into Warmachine/Hordes. Thankfully very little, if anything has gotten removed completely in those games.
Got rid of Tomb Kings?
*Settra's fury intensifies*
Since my huge Renegades and Heretics army got yeeted out of the rules, i now have a ton of unusable plastic so this video speaks to me, ty
Hi Atom, do you mind sharing what mic you use to make your videos?
The first army I painted was a Tomb King's army and I still play AoS with it! And actually it is pretty much better in AoS than in Fantasy (in my opinion). Nonetheless, skellies are not useful in the army anymore, therefore I use them to play Skelleton horde with my Deathlords.
good example of Nerfed recently I know of was the Iron Hands in competition. some people play the game in friendly competitions, or just build and paint models
I saw a "Glass Hammer" in practice, during a 1988 WW2 large table convention game, set on the Russian Front during 1944. This was way back in 1989. The Axis side invested a lot into having a trio of Tiger II tanks, focusing their whole team's strategy completely on dominating the table with these monster tanks. The Soviet side had a concealed BM-3 100mm. L.56 Tiger II killing heavy AT gun. It KOed one Tiger II through the glacis with HVAP and KOed the gun on the next one with a mantlet penetrating hit. The surviving Tiger II's spent the rest of the game cowering in the rear.
The Axis side lost the game, eventually.
Can someone tell me.. Where do I check all CURRENT points for Space Marines, Black Templars? And Orks (Goff)? I wanted to order the chapter approved tournament book with the point costs, but heard it's already off by some points due to faq... Where do I look? :( I never played this game but want to test it. Thanks in advance
Battlescribe
@@bannamaster THANK YOU! Finally someone :D i'm now downloading it! Can't wait to see, how much points i got in total!
@@NIMMHATVRapBeats no worries 😊
Also check out wahapedia for a great resource for rules and such
@@jaiar12 thanks, I will look into that! :)
I have a completely unfinished, 2000-pt Swifthawk Agents army. I will build and paint it someday, rules be damned!
I also wholeheartedly agree: if your army's key to success is a gimmick, you should be prepared for that gimmick to go away and be ready to find something else that works.
Dogs of war..the Perry twins one..not been a army since edition 6. Still got them..slowly working on making them usable as Empire in T9A..at my own pace..for me..But will look way cooler than the stock "Empire" models.. Great channel BtW..
Great video! If I have said it a thousand times to people: if you love your models/ faction, never sell them. Terrible models and even whole armies can go from zero to hero overnight. Example: grey knights in 40k competitive at the time of this post. Do not give up stuff you like to chase the new competitive thing. Unless competitive is your joy, them have at.
There's a lot balance issue in the nerf things especially when it's done to a some gimmick army has but not getting compensation for it. For example Eldar flyer spam though out the editions. While, yes, nerfs were needed but you have now taken essentially the only viable competitive option off the table without giving us options to spec into other stuff because everything else went unchanged. While those options can be played competitively they are so much more work to do and allow no mistakes to be made. Then compare it to other armies, say, Space marines who do everything better and more efficiently even after their fair share of nerfs. Getting ones army nuked always feels bad wether or not the nerf was deserved.
Well... Tomb Kings, Brettonia, half the Wood Elves, Squats, 20 years of Sisters...
I remember the opposite of this happened to me I had old Bretonnians (before battle pilgrims, grail reliquary and the archers used the arrowhead and the Knights the lance formation) and they were pants in terms of being a formidable army on the table top compared with others and I'd lose more than I'd win but I loved the models and had fun with them anyway in particular the simplicity of them was great.
Then not long after I'd started, playing chaos instead and had sold my Bretonnians to fund the new army they redid them making them more effective which was gutting lol
I've been collecting and playing Fallen since around when Vigilus Ablaze came out because the lore of the First is cool and the concept of units with both Imperium and Chaos keywords is pretty amusing to me. So unlike a sensible person who would just run them as Dark Angels, I've actually been playing them as plasma-toting Fallen Angels using the specialist detachment.
The changes to detachments in 9th from 8th is a bit of a hit, but it just means that I'll need to be a bit more prudent with who I'm allying in (since you can only have about 1000 points of Fallen max in a list, give or take). The bigger hit is finding out that you're not allowed to take the specialist detachments in tournament play. Sure, I can still run Cypher and my 10-man Fallen squads using the basic Codex rules, but my three rhinos and the different Fallen Sorcerors I converted are outta luck. It hurts, but for casual play I'll be able to keep playing them.
Here's hoping that the Fallen don't disappear when the 9th Ed CSM codex comes out. If that happens then I'll really be out of luck.
In German „nerven“ means annoy someone. So I love to think that that’s the base of the term Nerf/Nerv
Rune Wars from Fantasy Flight Games was discontinued. I didn't know about this game untill I saw bundles of units and the base game in a liquidation. I bouth a balanced number of units from each armies from different locations and now I have all four armies for a fraction of the original price. I can play with my kids and my friends with a *complete* game. Just missing a few random units. Best of all. If I get tired of the system, I can switch to the Kings of War system and use the same minis. :-D
I just got my Tau last week so I really hope my army doesn't become useless already
thats ok they got nerfed a month ago so unlikely to get nerfed again
Dan Wilkinson what was the nerf?
@@MundaneCamisado 9th
they are good, they can overwatch like they used to, compared to all other armies not being able to, without paying CP
Morten Awesomdary sorry what I meant to ask was, how were they nerfed? I thought if anything they got a bit of a passive buff with some points decreases and free overwatch
Yeah, this happened to my Renegades and Heretics. They have been removed from the meta. I spent 2 years custom building some of the FW vehicles that were not made any more and customizing my army. They have removed them and the Elysian Drop Troops...
what if my army gets nerfed? i keep loving it and playing, it and keep coming up with cool lore for it, and keep playing it.
My first army was Tyranids, I came in a few months before they got their 5th edition codex and 13 year old me was driven by Carnifexes, big cool models that you could have a whole army of (you could make some of them elites in 1500pt games). So I was going for that and next thing I know, Tervigons were all the rage and now a carnifex was about 150 points and unusable. I loved Tyranids, but if that ever made me drop an army faster. My whole army was invalidated because they wanted to sell Tervigons. That was my first army and now it's been in a box for 10 years because I can't stomach getting all these new models to make my army relevant. They also look bad and it makes me sad.
Whole reason I got into One Page Rules was because of this. And then they repointed everything and now I’m over cost hahaha. Ahhh never fails.
Great video. I've never been that worried. If you intrinsically love an army/faction/whatever you stick with it regardless, if you chase the tourney dragon you'll be used to buying in and selling out of armies as a matter of course. You've got to enjoy your hobby whatever that means for you. I don't think I ever won with y Tomb Kings in 6th ed and didn't do much better through 7th and 8th but I loved them and sould never swap them for anything.
I'm used to needed armies. Simply I invent new ways to play them and moreover to reach the objectives.
Makes me sad cause I always wanted to get into tomb kings but at the time I couldn’t convince my friends to try fantasy :(
Isn't Legion of Nagash the AoS version of Tomb Kings?
We had the same problem in our group; when some of us want to play fantasy others want to play 40k. It happens. I'm trying to set up two armies for AoS and two for 40k so that this isn't a problem any more. Hopefully I'll be ready when lockdown ends.
@@RodneySloan you can't buy the models anymore
Have you looked at Mantics Empire of Dust they created a whole faction for tomb kings players to use in their game
@@RodneySloan Not really, but it's the only one which can use some of the regular skeletons as a proxy. LoN is technically the Vampire Counts successor though, more spoopy and Halloween store looking with bats etc.
Do you think codex creep could be averted by releasing all new edition codexes together or over a short period of time? I feel like the issues comes up when you have books spread over two years. Release all the books over 4-6 months and they’ll be similar power and can then be FAQ’d over the next 2-3 years to keep them all in line with each other.
There are a lot of "retro" gaming groups that play older editions of games. My gaming group is working towards being able to play Warhammer Fantasy 6th ed. at some point. Luckily, I never got rid of my stuff.
we all play games and its nice to win, however if you're going out solely to win I feel you have certain issues in your life you're not addressing. Sure there can be a certain lifestyle to obtain by becoming a recognised gamer (professional?), but it shouldn't be your sole aim playing board games..
Like Atom said, if your army gets nerfed there's a good chance e-bay will be swamped with them, so buy them on the cheap and practice your painting. I remember painting used to be a points consideration in the tournaments i went to, so make up points there.
Find out the most powerful units of any army you're likely to face and make it your singular mission to destroy that unit in every battle you play. Preferably having your "worst" unit land the killing blow.
Because if we dont find ways to enjoy competitive play eventually tournaments will just be a collection of the same army played by groups of players expecting fully to win, but who wins then? probably the person who wins first turn roll off.
Great advice for a potentially negative situation. Poor old Tomb Kings
i have 11 armies in age of sigmar . I started the game when i stopped mtg and so i was used to spending money ( lots of money ) to acquire what i needed in order to play . Now with the figures i wanted a fresh start , to buy things that may not be the top tier but instead what looked cool or a theme i liked etc . That brings us to my one army i wanted from the moment i started and had little to no figures at the time and no codex , slaanesh . I bought all the other chaos armies , then death and finally they announced slaanesh . I bought the starter set ( the one with khorne ) 4 times , then the small starter set 3 times and all the characters , scenery and two keepers . The army was extremely powerful , and that was something that made me worry . At first it was indeed unfair playing with slaanesh but then came the first shooting army ( cities of sigmar ) and people also started playing the sigmarines in a far more shooty way and slaanesh quickly came down a peg ( it is an army with no flying so screens can wreck you if they have efficient shooting in the rear units and keepers , like all monsters in general , go down with afew wounds to being mefiocre or outright bad even ) . I accepted that against nsaid armies i have a disadvantage and moved on . I also expected a nerf to slaanesh and accepted that too . Then tzeenth came out , and the kharadrons soon followed . Slaanesh was not only nerfed but the shooting armies increased by two and one was extremely unfair . Now the new update came with new nerfs and the one army i wanted to buy from the beginning of sigmar is indeed unplayable unless you are a glutton for punishment or the opponent is nice enough to bring a bad army as well . We could borderline play before the second update and was very willing to do so but now i am not willing to do so . here's hoping they throw us a bone next version...............