Devs make one monthly video about AoC, everyone reacts to it. Then everyone also reacts to everyone else's. Then everyone reacts to the reactions to their reaction. Such is the cycle
@@googleminus1442 time traveler here. You made this comment as a joke but it turns out true later. I meet you in another timeline. You get brutally interrogated by an invading Chinese police force hunting time travelers. You made me promise to comment on this thread in the hope another You would hopefully dodge your miserable fate if I was able to return to the past again.
Asherons call was 1,300 km^2, and it really made the world perfectly large for hiding from PvP, but with portals and dungeons, even though the world is massive the game devs made certain areas "choke points" for those who wanted maximum xp/hrs, or loot/hrs, so it catered to both sides of the player base. It forced pvp for those who were meta gamers, and allowed for isolation for solos, and allowed for the "owning" of towns for multiple large guilds, etc.
So when wow dies and someone says it was a amazing mmo are you gonna say the same dumbass comment? Please think next time before you join the conversation
Really unfortunate Asmon didnt read Peons comments below the video so i'll post them here. TheLazyPeon An additional point I forgot to make in this video about the PVE & PVE server debate… - With Ashes being a sand park MMO (Hybrid of theme park and sand box) the vast majority of the content is player driven, usually PvPVE, the advantage of this approach is that players rely less on developer curated content to enjoy the game and many aspects of the game will be highly replay able due to the fact that the interactions between players IS the vast majority of the content… If you add PVE servers to a sand park MMO then players will burn through that content extremely quickly, the focus then becomes on the next Raid, Dungeon and PVE challenge to clear a few times and then you’re done and you unsub til next content update, devs would need to shift their focus to just pumping out raids to keep people subscribed, the game would shift from Sand Park to full theme park (basically what’s happened with New World) A lot of people clearly like PVE only theme park MMOs but Ashes of Creation was never designed to be one of those games, WoW and FF14 are already great for that kind of experience, It’s fine if this game isn’t for you, no game has to be for everyone, but changing core design pillars late into development to chase maximum popularity is a recipe for disaster, for many people the current design direction of Ashes is EXACTLY what they’ve been waiting for, let them have the game they’ve been dreaming about when we’ve already got great pure PvE experiences imo. Either way let’s be honest, everyone is going to try the game because the MMO genre is dead af and we don’t get many new releases to get excited about, maybe more PVE players enjoy the game that you’d expect despite the PVP, let’s wait and see…
Its sad ppl are trying to turn this game into every other mmo especially due to biased reasons like Asmon here. He wants to cash in on the game and is worried he cant cuz of pvp. He doesnt care about Ashes he cares about not being on the wave that this game is going to create.
It was their Choice to add PvP to all aspects of the game, their own fault if it kills their game. Loss aversion is a way stronger motivator than any positive motivation you can put in a game, there is a reason PvP MMOs have tiny playerbases. They are playing with fire to have PvP tied to caravans and shipping, the players shipping their items already have the reward; you are asking them to PvP just to keep it. The First time a PvE only player pulls up the menu to start a caravan, sees it can be raided en route, they are going to drop your game. Raiding Cities and rival nodes is much easier for a PvE player to accept, it is regularized and scheduled. If they misjudge the audience they think exists (And I don't think it does, at least not int he numbers they are going to need) they are going to be speedrunning dead game status.
I think the argument between PvP and PvE is misunderstood. As long as the gameplay is entertaining people will play it, regardless if it's against other players or the environment. What matters is that I'm hanging out with people I enjoy playing with, not really what we're doing. I think people are against PvP in MMOs because WoW's PvP is straight ass. It's not fun hitting a target for 10 minutes straight just for them to keep healing. I've played WoW since 2008. I find the PvP boring so I only do PvE with the boys. I've played LoL since 2015. When the seasons are fun the game is a blast. I play less LoL now because I don't find the PvP as fun. I've recently gotten into Valorant. I find the PvP fun so I've been playing it the most rn. Again my point is that fun gameplay will speak for itself.
I think Wakfu had a really interesting gathering system with ecosystem management playing a factor; things outside of ore veins didn't really respawn on their own, so you had to spend some of your resources replanting to keep the ecosystem at a certain level. This included mobs as well, as you could harvest materials from them that let you spawn more.
Ashes was purely made for a PvP experience similar to ArchAge or Lineage , but Ashes also has systems for more casual players , PvP always on doesnt mean if you see a random person you can hit them right away , in most games you still have to flag yourself to be able to hit other players, other players if hit first can hit back without flagging for self defence , there will also be certain areas that contain more PvP depending on resources, the best way to have a PvE style server is to have a community driven realm which they deem as PvE focused . the comparison of FACTION based PvP is not acceptable in alot of PvPvE (PvX) there is no factions.
STOP BS there s no sistem for causal player there isnt content for them .The game isnt made for 90% of mmo players solo/casual/rp it made for pvpers and craft/gather players that barely enough of them alive.
@@thebranmuffin8502 compaired ot casual or solo player it not even close but at best ashes will have 1 mil player for 3 months then die down ot 200k tops andi am being super kind about it
Doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about it. I just hate the fact that there are other MMORPG's that exist that have similar systems and these people base the argument that those games died DUE to the pvp. When in reality that's wrong. Archeage did not die due to the World PVP such assumptions hurt and attempt to legitimize why the game itself needs to be PVE only. The systems of Ashes are built upon previous games that came before it but improved (e.g Archeage, Lineage 2, Darkfall). I can't speak for the other 2 games, but Archeage itself didn't die to world pvp. The game died to to mismanagement and miscommunications from the Korean developer XLGames to Trion Worlds. Since the game was a Korean MMORPG. XLGames applied a Pay2Win shop mechanic by making Apex (a consumable item in the game that allows you to redeem 1200 Credits and allow you to buy patreon: a subscription type for labor in game) tradable. Once they made APEX tradable via auction house. People started buying a lot of them and selling them for gold. You can only get APEX at the in game Marketplace through credits. The game was also riddled by botters, spammers, exploiters, cheaters, and land grab programs. This game had a korean anticheat(Hackshield) that was super easy to get around at launch. This problem continued on until they implemented EasyAntiCheat when Archeage Unchained came out. But by the time they implemented it. The game was already dead. with only a few lingering players still left to this day. In Stevens vision towards ashes. I can see that he wants to recreate these lost systems that were fun from old games that were miss handled by greedy publishers/devs. These systems actually work great, but only if handled properly. I've played Runescape, Neverwinter, Blade and Soul, Revelation Online, Archeage, and Guild Wars 2. Yet none of them but Archeage had the best memorable experience I have had in any MMORPG.
@@joostleisder1956 if you're talking about religion that's your opinion, you don't know for a fact that these things don't exist. Higher power vs big bang that randomly created everything out of nothing, both are equally mind boggling and cannot be proven.
I just wonder if there will be true stealth or some nonsense not working bullshit :D otherwise, I believe classes will all be great, I especially wonder about bards, this is not much present in other games... overlooked class and rogue ofc, that's my main :D
@@cooller8888 It's already wellknown that there won't be true invisible. You will go transparent, kinda like zeratul or nova in heroes of the storm. I guess you cant be selected or targeted, but if they can see you with naked eye then they know you are in there and can spam AoEs I suppose, maybe dmg makes you leave the "invi" btw its pretty cool
@@gonmordevol7245 no that's fake news. Steven and no other from the studio says this. There is just no information about this at all... also there is multiple archtypes of that class, so there is very much possible some of them might have true stealth, it would make perfect sense. Why are you even doing this? All the time I see someone like you I feel sick... presenting your own opinion as a "well-known" fact. Like, wtf is wrong with you? Shame on you.
The problem with removing PVP from any MMO, is that it makes crunch culture more prevalent, since they will have to add more content to keep players working towards an end-game content, while if there is lots of opportunities for PVP, that in itself is a big type of end-game content, that obviously may not everyone like, but at least you can still use your completely min-maxed gear.
@@negan4089 Until the only people that are left are only PvP players which, whether you like it or not are the minority. Forced PvP = dead within 6-8 months. Flagged PvP = play how you want, everyone is happy. Incentivise PvP to the point that people want to flag for it. Instead of forcing it to the point people quit.
As an OSRS player, it’s not fun being baited into the Wilderness by cool gameplay to be chased by people in max gear. Predator vs Prey is Walmart Brand PvP
1200 KM^2 is about twice the area of NYC. It's quite big, but if the game's exploration and harvesting are compelling enough it could probably go even bigger. The map is somewhere between the size of a very big city and a metropolitan area, which may be too quickly explored if the game ends up having a population similar to Lost Ark.
Asmon just hasn't played games like L2, EvE and Albion and talks if he knows that it is bad to have PvP on all the time. It is not only about killing people around for fun like it was in WoW back in the days. That really was just anoying. When you have a punishment system for player killers it is a whole different story. For me it was one of the most fun things in L2 when we group up to hunt down a PK when someone notice red nameplate runing around.
Exactly! When you realize how much pvp helps the economy youll never want to step foot in a pve open world again. Better to just play skyrim/far cry/ assassins creed or whatever if you want to chill and lean back with a extra large slurpee in a huge open world.
Albion was a bad game for PvE casuals. Roving groups of 3-7 players ganking solo gatherers made for stressful gathering. Most PvE casuals don't play games to get stressed. The only reason Albion is as big as it is is the F2P model and the ads that draw PvE players in for a few months before they quit.
@@thechloromancer3310 they made it where you can travel from Black zone to blue zone takes 60 seconds and has a cooldown, the portal zones are cities now, and theres alot more solos especially with the new update in 9 days, the Mists, zones for no more than 2 or 4 people and they close like every 2-5 minutes, I agree the groups suck just gotta avoid them and find other solos / duos and slaughter them and take their stuff and laugh at PvE casual mmos on your way back to get ganked :D unless you escape
A thing Asmon touched on which i love is that to be passionate about games you dont need to be a sweaty pvp player. Im perfectly ok with using games to relax after my days at work and streaming to my 3 viewers 😂
if it's possible to keep servers with 10000 ppl online 89 nodes and the size of the map is perfect. I can see it coming together really well. Even people spending more time in transit is not really an issue.
@@Wehue because then people will chill in the movement time, ie group calls, disc calls, meeting at a time and place is held to more importance, meaning more people will do it. making community events stronger. ive seen it in very few games, but i think it should work, if not, they can change it later. what they cant do is have it in then take it out, everyone would be angy
The everybody on the same server aproach has been tried already: Life is Feudal MMO, where hordes of naked, stone axe russians destroyed everyone else's stuff. Marvelous!
Archage and BDO both started with amazing open world PVP. This gave people the best memories and the worst memories. Today both games open world PVP has been ruined for various reasons. Asmongold norally has good takes but not in this video.
@@joostleisder1956 So true. AoC will break records on release and within 6 months, with forced PvP, 90% will have left. Within a year, without changes it will be dead. AoC is just Star citizen, essentially. Both games promise so much but will not deliver.
He’s never played Ultima Online, L2, Archage or really gotten in BDO proper, so his perspective is effectively that of a casual who has been catered to by most devs (WoW, GW2, FF14, ESO, NW, etc). The PvP games all found success, all held back by their bullshit monetization or age (UO). I have played both sides of the aisle, the best living worlds are from the PvP ones, hell even in PvE friendly EVE (if you’re a miner or a trader), anything that matters happen due to PvP elements. I just want to see a western game that pushes the promise behind those PvP focused games, without the monetization. Archeage, BDO, and EVE all prove there’s a place for PvE centric players, while having the PvP experience be the real meat and potatoes. That’s what Steven is promising, that is why Ashes is interesting to me.
I think the implication that pvp is inherently "toxic" isn't true. I understand that Asmon doesn't like it because of his very unique situation, but the risk that the threat of pvp introduces carries excitement. We called it the "pvp shakes" in Eve. When you know you stand to lose something meaningful, but if you win you stand to gain something meaningful ... the adrenaline and endorphins these engagements release feels incredible. Maybe they could even take a page from Eve and have "safe" zones, "low security" zones, and "no security" zones where the penalties for engaging in pvp change.
You also completely missed the point he made then. Asmon basically said that people and alot of them at that, do not want that stressful engagement. They just want a break away from the real world, where they can relax, maybe with a few friends and enjoy the world they are playing in. Not being worried about being ganked by Timmy and his goons. If this game launches without an opt out option, it will be dead within a few months. Just like every other PvP-centric game. PvE casuals are what keeps games alive, not the sweats.
In an old MMO "Silkroad Online," there was also the possibility of delivering goods from city to city. You could still sign up for "Thiefs, Trader, Hunter" in three groups. The system was so good and made a lot of fun. The trader asked Hunter if they would go from town X to townY with him or further distant cities gave more gold at the end. On the way, NPCS was always hanging around the trader trying to destroy the transport the Hunter was protecting. The "Thiefs" players were able to attack the trader from 2Star (Ware in Transport) and of course the Hunters. It was mega cool and if you didn't feel like running a lot of stars because it was risky because of Thiefs (player) you just made 1 Star Trades. After the trader arrived in town, he gave it up at an NPC and the Hunters were also rewarded with gold with a % set. The more the "fractions" Thiefs, Trader, Hunter revealed, there were skins for occupations (that was before battlepass existed similarly to describe.
The reason Ashes is so interesting to me is the fact that they try to make a system that focuses on player interaction within the node system. Groups formed to help and protect nodes and their citizens, player-driven objectives, taking risks to gather resources, and a thriving economy because of that risk. Sure, the system might not work well during the alphas, betas, or even release. But, I'd love to see them try instead of shutting it down.
@@CallMeTeci Because its fun and different than other themepark MMOs. Sandbox games that has objectives and goals driven by players like Minecraft and Rust are fun to play and gameplay does not need to heavily rely on content provided by the devs. Combining them together with other MMO aspects to make a sandpark style MMO is exciting. They just need to implement it right, and adjust accordingly.
I'm afraid the game is already attracting the most toxic people again. That's the worst part of pvp orientated games. It's not that that I dislike pvp games. But the communities always suck. And games like this always need a large time investment. The community interactions become more important when you have to invest more time into it. Meaning you have to deal with that toxic behavior for many hours. It turns me off the game for that reason already. I was looking forward to this game at first. But I don't think I'll buy it on release. I probably wait to see how the community develops.
The problem with the PvP/PvE debate is that no one is talking about ways to make PvE players WANT to dip their toes in PvP. Give these PvE players options to get involved while experiencing greater reqards and losing less when they die, and at least they'll see their eventual death as a win, since they've gathered more (even with the loss incurred in death) than they would have by just sticking to safe zones and tame play. It is up to the devs and community to explore good and well balanced options to make this a reality.
Counterstrike is skill-based and Ashes is gear-based. Not really the same target audience. PvPers in MMOs rarely can compete in purely skill-based games, which is why they prefer gear-based mmo pvp in the first place
@@jamaly77 it might be gear "based" but you can still get skilled in mmos. All of that is factual but has little to do with the point I was making. Yall crying about not getting something they never said they would do. Is like crying about no open world pvp in Sims. Sure open world pvp in sims might make the game better "for you" but the devs did not make the game necessarily for you. If they want to make the game they want to make they are entitled to do so. If you wanna complain about a bunch of shit your not entitled to, then your also entitled to do so
Most MMO Players: I'm sick of this Content Treadmill, Theme Park MMO's suck! Most MMO Players reacting to Ashes: What do you mean I have to make my own choices, and others choices can effect mine? Where is the Content Treadmill? I just want to get on and have the game hold my hand through a bunch of pre-planned content with the boys, like a Theme Park MMO! SMH, its the WOW brainrot.
in regards to wow world boss pvp. I was part of a coalition on firemaw in WoW classic trying to contest bosses from the top guilds and the only thing that made it bad was the server being completely unable to handle the amount of people in the same zone. It was really fun mayhem that I remember fondly tho we only scored like 2 boss kills.
Archeage had alot of land to explore and it was amazing...I love vast open world to explore. It took me a long time to travel from one end of the ocean to the other looking for treasure..... even with the large vast ocean I still ran across people that forced pvp, but allowed enough vast area that you could get things done as well.
Well, about pvp system its kind of like in Lineage 2, but in L2 if you die when you are red, you can lose some of you gear. If the same system will be in AoC, I dont see any problem about pvp system. Of course, there will always be players who will want to kill everyone, but there will also be those who will hunt them and help other players.
The current pve-only mmo’s yield a max of 2 mil players. While that isn’t a small margin, I don’t think it’s reason to prioritize it. During wrath, pvp servers were the most popular, and that was during the 12 mil player era. There’s a lot of emotional defense going on this vid that ends in disproving his own points.
I think if a player doesn't want pvp involved in getting items from point a at point b, then they buy it at point b for more money, or sell it at point a for less. It's pretty straight forward. It's pretty early to be certain but this whole last half of arguing about pvp servers is stupid because pvp does not seem to be mandatory. There's supposed to be a system that punishes griefing so it's not like new world where you'll see people battling at the gates of cities camping faction member quest paths, etc. So, it's important to see what exactly they will have in place closer to finishing development.
The best pvp system i ever played was the bounty hunter system, ppl enlist in two rival cities to hunt heroes from the other City, you go to the militia, get a name, the target location and go hunting, ppl that dont want in, just play the regular game, but there was rewards exclusive to players who did pvp
they really need make tracking corrupted players really easy and killing them very lucrative. the more corrupted a player is the farther opposing players can see them on the map and the bigger the reward for killing them
I actually disagree with Asmon here. I DONT think you need to cater to everyone. I think thats a fools errand. If PVP and PVP interactions are essential to the game and how the studio want it to play than its a PVP game and thats that. Not every game has to be for everyone. When you start making those PVP moment easier, and watering down the content because you're catering to "casuals", it doesnt do favours for anyone. If people want servers with PVE only, then fine, but i even think thats stupid.
@@DaShikuXI but what about caravans and the ocean? They are optional, I guess, but huge parts of the game. You can't allow people to do that without PvP...
I'd go further on the caravan system and "people don't want to risk materials taking them from A to B" and say "people don't want to have to transport between A and b". I foresee Ashes pulling a New World and having to remove many of these "cool on paper" ideas like localized storage.
I don't see why people find it hard to grasp the concept of PVP being there to enhance the world and systems not destroy them. Asmon saying that a PVE server and PVP server being good for the game didn't quite make sense to me either. He talked about how both have their perks, but the PVE server would feel mind numbing being that the systems wouldn't have PVP and they'd just be there to waste your time. I don't like doing something that wastes my time. I like things to be challenging but also give me good loot. If it meets those criteria then I'm happy with it. And when someone mentioned "when a game caters to all it caters to none" and asmon said "so you agree with me." He was basically saying that making the game he wants it to be, would effectively make the game a dead game because nobody would want to play it. I don't know how he tried to turn that into an argument and think it was a good one, but that's beyond me 🤔🤦🏽♂️
The reason why this is even an issue is because most MMOs don't have a good system for law and order. Imagine wanting to kill a player, and having to bring friends to cover it up, and wait until he is out of town and sufficiently far enough away from civilization that the crime scene discovery falls enough. When you spot the player you notice that he has hired some NPCs to act as messengers and scouts - You will have to prioritize them as they stand the best change to escape the ambush and alert the closest town/garrison with your players descriptions. Open world PVP would become a matter of plays and counter plays prior to any attack. As PVE gets more dangerous farther from civilization grouping will be natural, as well as bringing NPC hires to complement your contingent. Ocean PVP leaves no evidence unless both ships survive to report the attack, and the yet vanquished criminal. Organized PVP such as duels would required player signatures and witnesses, while area's will also require signatures to verify ID and to build the participant list. Granted such a system has never really be implemented well in a game before, as players are consequence averse. But if you are going to be killed by another player in the world, it should either be because it was your fault in not being careful and making enemies, or knowing that they will have to face high consequences for the deed. Such a system divorces PVP mostly from who has the better gear. Lets say that you have a group of players with a variety of classes, specializations, and complementary NPCs sufficient to kill well guarded/countered players, for the sole purpose of killing/griefing as many players as possible. Naturally players with meta communications can rally to hunt them down and suffer the consequences.
Fook that. Pvp is integral to the world. This is their vision. This is something new. They are not catering to only pvp they have a whole new format where they bring both pvp and pve together. I love that. If people don’t like that, then bye ✌🏼
I think a lot of the issues with the tab v action argument came from a lack of focus displaying the action combat mode and more time being spent showing the tab target and the abilities. Almost like it was an after thought and that lead to people making assumptions (rightly or wrongly remains to be seen) about the way it will play. It was covered, but it was much less focused than the abilities and trying to make the system look flashy.
@14:00 The game is designed so that you want to stay in your node of origin most of the time to progress and defend it. Travelling the map is not supposed to be something you would even want to do unless you purely wanted to explore or maybe find another node to call home. Unlike new world, you aren't forced out of your home node to do things that progress your character. Now an exception to this will be if you are a vassal node, where your node cannot progress further. This will force you to travel to the adjacent nodes or the highest tier node you are subject to in order to progress, but this is much closer than trying to cross the map every day.
The problem with tab targeting is not the targeting but the homing missile ability attached. In World of Warcraft you can't avoid a projectile while in Guild Wars 2 strafing is often enough to avoid the hits.
OSRS has the perfect pvp for an MMO and it was explained perfectly in this video. You have a huge chunk of the map that is PVP only. Said area has unique loot and some of the best gold making methods in the game but the caveat is that you are forced to be PVP flagged in said area. You dont HAVE to go to this area, there's plenty of other really good viable gold making methods that don't involve going into this place but if you're willing to take the risk you can go in there to farm items. This also gives PVP players who want to PVP their only sandbox in the world to have their own fun and participate in that part of the game.
Except there's so much non-pvp/pve-related rewards in the wilderness. Why do I have to enter pvp and defeat hundreds of bosses when all I really wanted was to hit rocks better? (Dragon Pickaxe is only available in the wilderness) Why do I have to enter pvp when I just want to solve puzzles? (There are so many clue scroll locations in the wilderness, the rewards aren't even better if you do go in) Why do I have to enter pvp to enjoy some of the questlines? (There are even some npcs where you can't really read their dialogue because nearby pve mobs keep interupting it) Quite often, people are there because they have no choice if they want to progress. If the wilderness only offered pvp rewards, and also pve rewards that have low effectiveness, non-pvp alternatives, then you could say that the wilderness is truly optional.
@@allachor concept is great just poor excecution. multi combat is generally horrible and it took them 15 years to fix singles so its actually 1v1. the money you make in the wildy is hardly worth it for most players. hardly any reason to go there for another purpose than anti pking or nh pking
13:20 but this isn't going to be quest lines like that, your quest are node based, I doubt they are going to have quest that require you to go somewhere to talk to the hermit about fishing.
You would have to play Lineage 2 to understand how world bosses or bosses in general work in open world PVP game. Some of my best memories comes from 200v200 alliance vs alliance(each alliance had multiple clans cooperating) PVPs for the world boss. The world boss was instanced, but once you started the encounter with the boss nobody else could enter, so there was PVP for that spot to enter to the instance. For normal bosses there was this kind of open world PVP where anyone could kill anyone, so you had to watch the back at all times. Once there was this much of a PVP involved in the game including castle sieges, fortress sieges, clan hall sieges etc. there was also diplomacy involved, because clans had to cooperate to be able to get to world bosses or high end stuff. If you take all these things from a PVP centric game you end up with a bad game and i see mostly WOW players complaining about it, because PVP in WOW was one of the worst PVP systems i ever saw.
The only certain methods PvE players usually employ to avoid PvP is quit or don't play the game. Which is ok for the players but i doubt it will be ok for the game.
My only argument for MMO pvp is that it brings a unique type of gameplay no other game really captures quite the same in having a variety of tools to respond or set up with in combat. MOBAs took on a very dumbed down version of ability rotations, but there's something special about having a massive kit to work with along with it being your very own customized and named characters you can level up and fight with. That being said, pvp should always be optional, and any pvp servers that exist should always limit factions to keep sides as evenly stacked as possible.
steven said there will never be a toggle or only pve server ever. good everyone elses dont play and fuck off. And everybody supprised it was a given info from the creation of the project.
I dunno dude, I think mmo's are meant to be about the interactions between players. The PVE only mmo's are for solo andy's which imo is what kills the most mmo's by far. Just makes them feel like a singleplayer game that you play with other people running around you. You dont wanna fight or pvp to transfer your stuff? Interact with other players and pay them a fee to transport it for you. Make some sorta mutually beneficial deal. I understand asmongolds cynical business minded perspective. But business minded perspectives are imo to some relevant extent what has trashed that genre. This is a passion project and they've added so many things that would be consider 'wasteful' from a business minded perspective but that in return is continously making the game seem more and more promising. But again, we will see after playtesting has been done and the feedback is coming in.
They chose to put PvP in every aspect of the game. The issue is not that you are asking a PvE player to engage in PvP; it is that you are asking PvE player to engage in PvP and they will lose all their stuff if it goes poorly. There is a reason PvP MMOs cater to a tiny subset of the audience; Loss Aversion is orders of magnitude more powerful a psychological motivator than almost any other one you can have in a video game. My prediction, at this Alpha 2 point in time, is that if this game launched now, it would have a massive starting playerbase, then once the PvE players in the various outer nodes have reached the point where they need to ship their items to the central cities and villages and get raided for the first time you will see massive drop off. Leave PvP to the City and Nodes Raiding, having the casuals get griefed just moving their stuff is stupid.
@@Sevaria Every memorable moment Ive had in every mmo Ive played since 2004 have had something to do with unscripted worldpvp related events.(with the exception of a few pve related events like first time I ever killed a raid boss and such). This seems to the case for most people on the occausions where people on voice end up tumbeling down memory lane. This speculation about the application of psychological hypothesis and theories on relatively vague game design concepts such as "world pvp with consequences to storage" are just that. Speculations. Ive played pure pvp mmos, pure pve mmos and pvx mmos. Personally, which again also seems a fairly shared experience, the 'magic' mainly lies the unscripted pvp events. Pve has initial novelty that seems to fade quickly and turns bland as it escalates into the problem of content draught. But again, all this is speculation in varying ways. All I ask is that people let Intrepid try to make stevens vision work first before they tear it apart and start replacing it with the game design philosophies of random internet speculators such as us :) PS: For the record Im like 80% pve and 20% pvp in my own playstyle.
You're one comment... "Every game that has tried PvP is dead or dying". That is 100% not true. The sad reality is.. That ALL MMORPGS are dead or dying. Solely because they are not staying true to their roots, and that their entire purpose is to BRIBE you to stay logged in through quick dopamine hits. This is not how MMORPGs used to function like. They were a place you can go, log in, and get lost it. Build friendships and join communities, and log in because of the social interactions and/or just login to escape reality for a little bit. World Bosses in WOW Classic were sometimes chaotic. But it felt REALLY good when your group managed to down the boss while also defending the spawn. People are acting like this game is designing PvP around free for all murder mayhem wherever you are and its not. Its highly highly discouraged systems wise to kill people. You just have the option to if you want. Mayhaps if more MMOS actually designed their games to be more like how ashes is going in terms of direction, we'd actually see a resurgence of the MMORPG genre. But for now, its all quick dopamine hits, try to get people to log in everyday to do their dailies at least. The game shouldn't "reward you" for logging in. It should just be so good that you ACTUALLY WANT TO.
The amount of work the devs would have to do to make a pve server is an insane amount, by the end it would be a drastically different game, you have to remember in order to make a pve server most of the systems would need a drastic overhaul and then the team would have to balance what is essentially two different games from there. The game has been designed from the beginning for pvp to be a core part of it. Almost if not every system has pvp ingrained into it, its a significantly bigger ask than i think a lot of people are realizing.
Could be an interesting experiment to just make minimal changes and see how bad the imbalance actually is, while letting PvP adverse players decide whether the imbalance is worth it or not. I wouldn't mind seeing a PvE experimental server during beta.
What surprises me is how many people are wanting pve servers all of a sudden. Intrepid has been very transparent from the beginning and making pvp an integral part of the game has always been one of their goals while designing everything. There are so few mmos that focus on pvp or just have bad/scarce pvp content, i'm excited that intrepid is going this direction.
@@shaun6945 Its ppl like asmon influencing there audience even tho for most of us its gonna be great because we arent streaming. Hes worried about this being an amazing game everyone plays and he cant cash in on it because hes gonna get ganked. I think how hes behaving towards this game is pretty gross and disingenuous tbh.
Its far, far simpler than you think. You dont really need to change any of the fundamentals of the game, you just have servers with greater and lesser values for the effects of corruption. If you have servers with massive corruption penalties and others with minimal corruption effects then those servers will `lean` more toward PVE or PvP respectively.
I see points from both perspectives. However I do think it's hard to compare wow to ashes with wow having the faction system that can cripple th pvp itself. If that makes sense.
Steve said in 2017 that he is making a pvp game focused on the world and that this game may not be for everyone. If people do not want pvp at all then AoC is not for them. He has also said he is not worried about revenue and will fund the game himself. I think it’s important to remember that in 2017 this game broke the kickstarter funding record for mmos with pvp as the priority. Strict pve only people already have many mmos. I want to be the knight in shining armor and save people. That means I need some of those toxic people to be the bad guy. Edit: Ho read lazypeon’s comment. He makes a great argument on pvpve design concepts.
He is funding it sure, but if the game is not profitable (40+ million spent and growing) he will just write it off. And if you pay attention to the way they talk they don't call it PvP, they call it PvX and the game literally will not function without a massive number of PvE andys.
@@Sevaria They have always called it pvpve. It’s not a pvp game because there is zero pve, it’s a pvp game because the entire game and its systems are designed around pvp. The node system is the equivalent or a raid in wow. The competition between nodes and the player requirement to build and defend those zones is the center of the game. Yes someone could go collect herbs and never engage in pvp, but it’s still a pvp game.
As much as I would like to get hype for this game, considering even AAA devs causes too much hype then flopping... Yeah I would be concerned for AoC, giving too much hype for the game can cause big backlash... I think I'll wait for the full release first... Since even on beta testing there might be problems (like server issues and bugs) at launch... Then I'll decide for myself if this is worth to play or not.
I won't get too hyped because I am still not sure of the full world PVP. People like to point to a few examples were games worked but for the most part... Def in this day and age no games survie long that launch like that
@@RealTaIk Life is Feudal and Mortal Online we’re both full world always-PvP games that never were able to go beyond super niche communities because that’s realistically a good example of how many people actually want to play with that gameplay style. Most people do not want full PvP/full loot games; if they did then game devs would be profiting off of those people.
@@RealTaIk Let me explain this as i have a few games worth of experience with similiar kind of system. Lineage II, BDO, Space Cowboy, BnS, Age of Wushu, and Cabal are what i can list off the top of my head. [Note : i saw your misunderstanding. A MMORPG can be any perspective, First person included, its just not very popular though] First, they are niche among the niche. MMORPG became a niche genre over the years. People love plug-and-play style of games much more than investing time and money on a lengthy RPG, let alone MMORPG. 90% of MMORPG playerbase are casual and what people called "carebears that do not like their time wasted by getting killed on a whim by a sweaty or a griefer. Second, this kind of games has hostile playerbase who will chase people away if they ever dare to voice their dissatisfaction of getting killed randomly. "Go play other games", "this is not for carebears", "you carebears are p-----", "lmao i love killing people like you"; these quotes are often found examples. Remember, casual and carebears are income generators due to sheer population, and do not care for power-related stuffs as much. Chasing them away will always lead to bad word of mouth, leading to no growth in playerbase. We don't even have to talk about griefers who love seeing people quit and seal-clubbing nature of them. Third, with less and less playerbase leading to less revenue, content update would be far less regular or not at all. This is where the downward slope starts. To combat less revenue, more monetization is needed. However, with less casual and carebears, monetization needs to be gravitate toward the remaining players who are most likely to pay for convenience or progression or dump all the resources into pumping out things to sell rather than improving the game. Operation cost is high, and development cost is even higher. A vicious loop that is even worse in free-to-play games. Fourth, an important one, too much focus on conflict-combat and neglecting things that makes RPG an RPG. A RPG world should be for everyone to enjoy. Player interaction days of shouting LFM LFP, killing or getting killed are over, people who still think like that will always have my deepest sympathy. MMORPG players want more deeper experiences like getting to know people with similair interests, being in a community that is not hostile or fractured, getting to do things they love and build something out of the game system, or a good story. For the past 20 years of gaming, this kind of games has almost no staying power with more and more competitors like MOBA and FPS. If someone make a game in this genre, it will most likely be dead in a few years, or even months. Still, developing a PVE centric game is much harder, and more expensive than a PVP centric game. It simply has a lot more things to consider and implement. The only MMORPG that has a constant growing playerbase now is FFXIV, and people call it "the retirement home of MMO players". Let that sink in for a moment.
@@RealTaIk FFXIV playerbase grows in every expansion for almost a decade now. Growing playerbase is count on average though, not peak. Looking at steam chart from 2014 to 2022, average player count grows steadily with every expansion, with small bumps for patches every 3 (currently 4) months and large bumps for expansions. Most people don't play it on steam, but it went from 5k in average for 2018 to 22k in average for 2022. Thats 4 times the size...... in 4 years. 5k in average was a few months before ShB, and 22k was almost a year after Endwalker. Obviously growing. People come and go because the game was designed to be relaxing rather than demanding, but they usually come back for patch day and launch day, so FFXIV doesn't really lose playerbase. Meanwhile, those returning players will invite their friends to come along. In other games, people might advise against playing the game, like me and BDO for example. Playing multiple MMOs or games is not weird at all, i played tons of them for 20 years before i find a stable home aka FFXIV. Still, i always play other games, right now im playing Divinity 2 while subbing to FFXIV. I already tried New World, it didn't click though. ------------- Those game are not PVE-centric, PVE content were designed to be a grind for power that can be used later in PVP. Thats the goal of PvP centric MMOs. You go PVE for power, go PVP, and go back to PVE for even more power then go back to PVP. The gameplay loop forces you to engage in conflict to progress, or don't progress at all. It is the damn chokepoint to prevent player from progressing and ran out of content by using other players. Korean MMOs seem to love this chokepoint very much then the Chinese came in and made it even worse than the Korean. Jesus... openworld PK from early level, as early as 5, is the worst experience and system ever. At least the Japanese don't like it very much. PVE-centric games seperate PVP from PVE entirely. Even the well-known PvX like Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 2, imo, is actually the best PvX game in the market right now. You have the life and relaxing aspect of PVE, and a seperate full fledged PVP in small, large, and enormous scale. No openworld PK though. FFXIV is the PVE centric one. No openworld PK, no large scale battle, only small scale PVP. Tons of life aspect and surprisingly customizable down to hair highlights and standing posture. I never care about what kind of standing posture my character has before FFXIV. I don't think openworld PK is a problem as long as it is not mandatory or beneficial. Sadly, it is mandatory or beneficial in every game with the system, leading to an inevitable end. Even with multiple punishment systems, it will still drive off players, if not preveting them from giving a chance in the first place, because people will eventually find a way to circumvent it. More importantly, griefing people using openworld PK system is far easier, more rewarding, and less punishing than trying to protect people from griefers by using the same system. How stupid is that?
I played years of EQ1 and then almost a decade of WoW on a PVP server and I'm going to have to agree with Asmon on this one. If you give people a choice most will choose the PVE server in order to avoid getting jumped. Alternatively server populations will choose the faction that is largest and could even re-roll to adapt. Regarding caravans, etc, I personally think that you can add the element of danger to the game by increasing mob damage/health as you travel. If you force people to PVP they will just adapt, probably in ways that PVPers did not expect or want.
I'm a PVE player and would prefer PVE, but I feel maybe keeping PVP servers as the default and making a PVE server a separate thing would be much better for this. Y'know instead of the other way around that most MMO's do where the standard is PVE servers and then they have a PVP server.
asmongold's take on this is definitely shit. In the context of wow he is correct -- every open world kill is a net negative. It is far worse to die than it is to get the paltry honor--assuming it's even an HK. contrast this to a game such as runescape, where you have mandatory pvp zones, that greatly contribute to the game.
@@drdorenton1060 It's his experiences with themed park MMORPGs, he's not entirely wrong but he needs to take a closer look why the approach AoC is with world PvP. Basically, needs new perspective.
@@ridgewayjulakit1612 Agreed. He only see's things from the perspective of what WoW had when it released 20+ years ago in regards to World pvp, and that's not even taking in to consideration that themepark and sandbox MMO's are wildly different. Pvp is one of, if not the biggest core foundation of Sandbox MMO's. Without it, they lose out on the very thing that people play Sandbox MMO's for, and that is the interaction between players and the world and the communities people build and rivalries and events people create, because that's what a Sandbox is about, players creating their own content and stories within a world.
@@brokchus1352 Trade runs are essentially a PvP event, so even if bots were running them, they'd be vulnerable to literally everyone in the game and be an easy target to attack and gain resources for yourself. If they do bot, they're not gonna fight back with any sort of skill or competency against a group of people actively trying to kill them.
Lol what's the point in moving caravans or crossing oceans with goods for a high reward with no risk, that's the whole point of risking the goods and then getting a shit ton of gold if you succeed(HIGH risk/HIGH reward). If you've experienced that type of game play in ArcheAge maybe you would understand, it's actually fun, and if you don't want the risk, don't do it or get good. :)
I think that a server is fine but most servers should be as design, pvp. this is supposed to be a pvp game with risk reward, they can add safety measures if needed but being like remove open world pvp is a bad take.
You have to understand that the majority of would-be players don't want mandatory PvP though. They like the setting for the world, the style etc and want to experience it without having to worry about the stress that PvP can bring. Those sort of players keep games alive because they are active players, paying players that will happily shell out money for the dumbest cosmetic shit. The sweaty PvP guilds wont, their only goal is to make other peoples experince horrible. Now picture this, you are just out for a run in the park. Beautiful day, you're having a great day. Now I come up behind you, trip you up and steal your phone. You aren't gonna turn around and say 'gg bro', are you? Why should a game be anything different? Especially when games are an escape for so many people in the first place.
@@MrWiggz69 lol I get what your saying and I definitely think a player should be able to work around it to an extent, but that the game is designed to have risk reward and I am down for that. The penalty should be high enough to discourage greifing, and systems should be in place to reward anti griefing bounty hunting, but I like the game design and don't want them to make it generic X already out mmo.
I don’t play a lot of PVP servers but I do believe there’s a difference between “griefing” and PVPing. If you just wait outside of town and gank kids are you really PVPing?
This game is heavily inspired by Archeage so ofcourse pvp is a central part of the game design, Archage and most of pvp mmorpg died because of the pay to win not because the pvp
@@raikaru0 there are plenty of pvp focused mmos that are dead. Like he majority of them die because face it, PvP is a mini game in mmos. There’s a reason why mobas make much better PvP games. Every match has the capacity to be completely different. Builds and characters can be changed a lot faster than in an mmo. And at some point in an MMO the hardcore players reach their peak and functionally stop anyone new from being able to play the game because of the gear/ item diff.
I'm really interested in the surveying tool , is it locked to a node structure or can you just deploy in anywhere? also can you move already deployed ones ?
i get its great for content, but the more i see asmon talk about ashes the more his wow-head mentality shines through... its not like he cant talk about these topics but he's so clearly biased on some points he makes that it's really weird to think of him as someone who knows what he's talking about (except for him being a ~15 year long wow addict). welp, guess i'll just need to walk that off and accept things for what they are.
I don't miss the days of trying to get into a raid and having guilds camp the entrance or come in on the last 4% health of a world boss and take the guild down. I played a PvP server from Vanilla WoW through WotLK. So happy when I finally moved to a PvE server. New World built the game specifically for PvP and then had to reward people to turn it on.
Ashes doesn't have forced open world pvp though, it has open world flag up pk system which is subtle but VERY different open world pvp implies that you can easily attack everyone with no consequences whereas a flagging system allows people to attack each other but introduces consequences for people that abuse it the issue with wow is that it wasn't well designed or fixed and amazon didn't give 2 shits about new world and again it wasn't designed too well in the first place and quite simple didn't care enough to address the flaws properly so they just ended up making a quick fix that broke the game
@@kurlus7930 np bro I understand there's been a lot of confusion due to crazy ghosts video never liked the guy he's been wrong on every vid he's ever made on every mmo not just the ashes one
Asmon still hasn't realised, that AoC doesn't want to compete with current AAA-corporate games in the genre. It is not designed to target the biggest audience possible. He just can't fathom, that someone wants to create something different. His point is, that if you don't want to get as much money as possible you're doomed to fail.
but ashes claim it wil lchange the mmo genre and it will bring back mmorpgs how will it do that if it doesnt offer content for solo/casual/rp player who are 90% of the playerbase the game is for craft/gather an pvp player who are niche part of the whole mmo community .
being able to transport goods from one place in the world where they are abundant to another place in the world where they are scarce should be greatly rewarding. Also I think that it should come at a risk, the risk of getting intercepted on the road. I also like the idea that people can hire other players or guilds to protect their caravans, the idea that they can fund players who are not interested in playing the economy but can still contribute to them as bodyguards. This creates a diversity on making gold, no longer will high end pve or pvp players be forced to grind like everyone else. Also Asmon callling people annoying and abnoxious because they disagree with his opinion is cringe. Reminds me of the intolerant woke crowd demonizing anyone who disagrees with their agenda, claiming to be the voice that protects the weak and targetting outsiders as violent griefters, shame on you Asmon. I think we are witnessing your "get woke go broke" downfall in real time. Been a viewer since Catdany;s days and this is dissapointing to say the least.
I think it is a great idea to have both like what runescape did. Where the wilderness is the risk vs reward situation where u take good amount of risk to farm in a pvp zone and get greater rewards if u succeed in the farming. It is a not bad idea. It satisfies people who want to simply take risk and pk to earn a good amount of rewards. The payload crate from point A to point B can be choose which route u want to take. If you want to take the shortest route, you have to take the route where it intersect with the pvp zone and others will be safe routes but take way longer.
a huge problem in new world was the flagging system for pvp. you could just endlessly gather mats without risk flooding the market, destroying the economy. AoC needs to cater to their audience. it is inherently pvp focused. its not for everyone and it shouldnt be. if you try to appeal to everyone you will be sub optimal in every aspect.
The more I hear about this game, the more I think this will have the same trajectory as New World, for somewhat different reasons: very strong start, then the playerbase falling off a cliff a few months in. Because with a strong start, botfarms, RMT merchant, sweatlords who can play for 16 hours a day and grievers will appear in force, making casual players too frustrated and just leave for greener pastures. Once they leave in droves, a lot of these toxic players will also leave, since without unwashed masses to grief, where's the "fun".
Too many PKers ambushing caravans would severely limit the supply of goods in a particular area. The price of those goods will rise accordingly. Which makes both caravanning more popular and lucrative and disdain for ambushers rise. A balance will be achieved. The key is to make caravanning extremely worthwhile.
just like in archeage, you can hire 'mercenaries' and pay them to escort you while transporting your goods. it's risk vs reward, if you want to gain the best profit, don't do it but if you want safety get some people to protect your caravan at lower profit.
Fundamentally, Ashes requires open world pvp for many of its systems (nodes, bounties, caravans, etc). They would probably be reduced to bad systems under a pve server. The key to making world pvp acceptable to casual players is to make it so that griefing has consequences that make it a rare behavior. This is something that many MMO's have failed or completely ignored. Steven is trying to come out of the gate with a good system that does just that. Then they have to innovate with it to cover loopholes that players inevitably find.
I think Albion has one of the best PVE and PVP system where its not full pvp and its not fully pve, but at the same time new players and veterans can fight whoever they like as long as the other party accepts the risk of losing everything or not.
Tbh this game is about territorial control so having a huge map is a good thing, EvE is insanely big yet all of the free nullsec territory is mostly dead and controlled by giant entities with big dick skillpoints and even bigger compensator ships...
This is a bad take by asmon. They are developing a game for these pvp systems. Why should they change everything for a demographic that they aren't even making the game for? That's like going to a Mexican restaurant and demanding you get Italian food.
Because their game is going to crash and burn if they don't get those PvE players to play it, PvP MMOs are tiny and they have already spent 40 million on AoC to date with likely another 40 to be spent by the time it launches.
As a Super veteran Archeage gamer, i can honestly say that PVE killed the game. As far as competing for world bosses is essential because the boss drop Godly items and gives other guilds a UP on weapons. I wish Asmon would actually talk to a Open World MMO Gamer. Btw PvX means PvP and PvE at the same time.
the argument that if you want pvp, you should play a "pvp game" like counter strike is dumb asfk. some people want to pvp in an mmo. some people only want to pvp in an mmo. some people want a game specifically designed with that in mind, from the ground up. kind of like ashes. crazy huh. i wonder why so many people backed it. dont destroy this game by using your platform to change its direction. allow it to be what it is supposed to be. and if what it is, isnt the game for you, then move on and play something else. its niche. always was always will be.
yeah but Ashes is not designed to be a PvP only game, it quite literally requires massive buy in by PvE players to function, and PvP only players are a tiny minority I doubt you could populate more than a single server with PvP only players. And your game can only be so "Niche" when you are going to end up spending 80 million dollars on it by the time it releases.
@@Sevaria if mortal online is still surviving with less than 1000 players world wide, im confident ashes will be fine. as a side note, I dont plan on maining pvp in the game, im a builder/crafter most of the time in sandboxes. but it is PART of the world, part of the risk reward, part of the experience. like i said, if you dont like it, dont play it. dont ruin a project that so many people like me have been looking for by changing the way it works BEFORE WE EVEN PLAY IT. the more people that are hyped about this, the more i worry. It seems, like every other game that blows up, the people who show up to join the hype train are the same ones who will try to change the game to cater to them. dont board the train, just to want it to be something its not. they know what they want for the game,and the ones who backed it from the start know what they want for the game and it has been designed TOGETHER with that community. a new influx of hype train people who arent even gonna play the game in the first place for more than a month are NOT the people youu want to cater to. look at every other fucking mmo. every other one. the state of the genre. if i need to say more, than this conversation is with a wall. i recommend setting a few days aside to deep dive into the history of game development over the past decade to see just how fucked everything is, largely due to things like this. i gurantee new world would have performed better if they didnt have an identity crisis for what the game IS ALL THROUGH ITS DEVELOPMENT, and even RIGHT BEFORE its betas. and now they have spent since its release to get it to a playable state. thats not how it should be. you can ddebate this, but as asmon always says, points on a graph make a line, lines point in a direction. when you have a lot of lines pointing the same way, well thats not a coincidence. hindsight is 2020. the past has a million lessons to teach, but everyone is ignorant, caught up in their idea of a good time, without ever participating in it, or even trying whats there. they just want to take their concept of fun and fuse it into what they are hyped about, regardless of what it was in the first place. games are art, art is made with passion, made with soul. without it, its garbage. corporatization bleeds passion. and video games have gone corporate. so when a project like this comes along, yeah, the people who really care, REALLY dont want to see it ruined by a bunch of people who literally dont know what they are talking about, nor do they have the decades of time involved in the medium, or even what the game development process is like. tldr, changing things late, changes the entire project and causes large large LARGE amounts of work, to go down the drain. let them work on the project they designed and have been working on. they know what they are doing, and they know what the project needs to succeed at what it is, more so than any other mmo team to date.
@@jeroxis9975 If your metric for a living game is that low, i've got hundred of shitty grinding KMMOs to show you. They have invested over 40 million dollars into Ashes, and that number likely to double by launch; they cannot survive with a 1000 players. To keep the game alive they need to be making money from it, which means having a much larger player base than just "surviving" .
@@Sevaria let be clear, i am not a fan of mortal online by any regards. that shit is beyond repair. the tutorial island is unfinished still lmao. merely drawing a comparison; if that shit show of a game can still pull it off, ashes of creation will be a ok. ashes is more complete of a project as it stands, then mortal online 2 will be in a decade.
Asmon is still butthurt that we corpse camped him in eastern plaguelands on classic vanilla faerlina. He called his guild, and even asked for swifty to send his guild to back him up. we still stomped him. So hard that he quit the server. Now we have a 99% horde server(effectively pve w. no alliance), but we still enjoyed the process of fighting for server dominance. Only low test pussies don't like competition
Think asmon is a bit tunnel visioned on open world PVP being bad because he streams his POV to thousands of people who will then come ruin his experience, yes I can imagine that feels like harassment, but this is not the experience of the other 99.9% of people playing the MMO.
As a person who can only play for 2/3 hours every other day, if it happens that I get killed twice in a row by some griefer and end up wasting all the time I was able to play I would quit on the spot. And you can bet there are many more people who feel the same.
@@RaddonOkay but are you getting griefed because you get killed twice? That's not exactly what I would call being griefed. Also imo its up to the game to create systems that help to prevent griefing, or have active GM's that actually ban people that grief in certain ways the game doesn't allow.
@@NufflasTo me if people kill me twice for the simple reason they can, and not because I am somehow competing with them for an objective yes that is griefing, and if my gaming sessions get regularly wasted because of that I will quit. I am not against pvp, some of my most pkayed games are things like pubg and LOL. But if a game fails to protect me as a casual from people who grind 100 hours a week then of course I will not pkay, I would be stupid if I did
@@Raddon The nature of MMO's will always be that people who play more have the advantage. Again I think its up to the game to offer alternative things to do, perhaps if you get killed twice doing a certain thing you can move somewhere safe instead or do something else.
I think a good work around for pve players in a pvp game would be to have roles these people could play during a battle/war that would make them unable to participate in combat. eg Banner men that provided some sort of buff to combatants like damage reduction, move speed etc, Medics that could heal grievous wounds or revive players, Spy's to track enemy movement or disrupt supply lines, a battefield commander that issued orders to your guild/company, I'm sure there is many more options to provide a meaningful gameplay experience to players that aren't interested in open world pvp combat.
A PvE server could still function if they add factions of Bandit/Pirate/Evil NPC enemies as an opposing hostile nations/cities. There would still be danger with caravan transports and at sea, but players would feel better losing to, and banding together against, a common foe. They could then add dynamic events like Guild wars 2, where you could choose to defend a public city or a Caravan transports from Bandit raids.
I'd like to see an economy spring up over the transportation of goods. Like if your guild doesn't want to deal with the hastles of transporting goods through pvp areas, then fine, just pay a group that specializes in doing just that. Wishful thinking, maybe, but it would be pretty cool.
I think it’s actually very likely that will happen. Caravans are built to facilitate this. There are even talks of escrow/insurance systems to help these transportation groups operate. It basically allows for player economies to fund and motivate world PvP.
Pretty much what they're aiming for in design methinks, go look up Eve Online for this type of detail. Even in L2 we had mercanry-type guilds that would join alliances for a price, players that would roam and hunt PKers etc. I think too many people are looking at this game like its the next WoW or FFXIV....
This whole "non consensual" thing is so stupid. It's like saying if I die in zelda I have just wasted my time because an NPC did somthing I didn't concent to.
Devs make one monthly video about AoC, everyone reacts to it. Then everyone also reacts to everyone else's. Then everyone reacts to the reactions to their reaction. Such is the cycle
As the Great Reactor Cashnasty says, "gotta pay the bills"
@Bimbom Yet here you are within an hour of release. People gonna keep selling so long as people keep buying
No one forced you here
@Bimbom feel better yet?
@@eyel5616 yet you are here falling into their trap and getting scammed lulw
I'm looking forward to play this game when I retire in 20 years.
TRUE!!!!
I'll retire in 20 years and won't die in a car accident on December 5 2027 Clueless
@@googleminus1442 time traveler here. You made this comment as a joke but it turns out true later. I meet you in another timeline. You get brutally interrogated by an invading Chinese police force hunting time travelers. You made me promise to comment on this thread in the hope another You would hopefully dodge your miserable fate if I was able to return to the past again.
44:11 he reads my commet that we will play in 2030 lulw
Asherons call was 1,300 km^2, and it really made the world perfectly large for hiding from PvP, but with portals and dungeons, even though the world is massive the game devs made certain areas "choke points" for those who wanted maximum xp/hrs, or loot/hrs, so it catered to both sides of the player base. It forced pvp for those who were meta gamers, and allowed for isolation for solos, and allowed for the "owning" of towns for multiple large guilds, etc.
i forgot asherons call was a amazing game
Such an amazing game that it died
So when wow dies and someone says it was a amazing mmo are you gonna say the same dumbass comment? Please think next time before you join the conversation
Some areas of AC were so distant you really felt like a lone explorer. What an awesome game it was.
@@rob4750 You can't just say this without addressing why you think Ashes of Creation's corruption system will fail.
I'm still careful to be in full copium mode, but this game has potential if they work hard enough on it.
It looks good so far
Same, looks quite promising and good so far
Name a successful pvp mmo.
There you go.
Mimimi
@@BearZerq ... Have you not taken a single point out of these videos so far? It's NOT a PvP game.
C'mon people, we are smarter than this.
@@BearZerq RuneScape
Really unfortunate Asmon didnt read Peons comments below the video so i'll post them here.
TheLazyPeon
An additional point I forgot to make in this video about the PVE & PVE server debate…
- With Ashes being a sand park MMO (Hybrid of theme park and sand box) the vast majority of the content is player driven, usually PvPVE, the advantage of this approach is that players rely less on developer curated content to enjoy the game and many aspects of the game will be highly replay able due to the fact that the interactions between players IS the vast majority of the content…
If you add PVE servers to a sand park MMO then players will burn through that content extremely quickly, the focus then becomes on the next Raid, Dungeon and PVE challenge to clear a few times and then you’re done and you unsub til next content update, devs would need to shift their focus to just pumping out raids to keep people subscribed, the game would shift from Sand Park to full theme park (basically what’s happened with New World)
A lot of people clearly like PVE only theme park MMOs but Ashes of Creation was never designed to be one of those games, WoW and FF14 are already great for that kind of experience, It’s fine if this game isn’t for you, no game has to be for everyone, but changing core design pillars late into development to chase maximum popularity is a recipe for disaster, for many people the current design direction of Ashes is EXACTLY what they’ve been waiting for, let them have the game they’ve been dreaming about when we’ve already got great pure PvE experiences imo.
Either way let’s be honest, everyone is going to try the game because the MMO genre is dead af and we don’t get many new releases to get excited about, maybe more PVE players enjoy the game that you’d expect despite the PVP, let’s wait and see…
Its sad ppl are trying to turn this game into every other mmo especially due to biased reasons like Asmon here. He wants to cash in on the game and is worried he cant cuz of pvp. He doesnt care about Ashes he cares about not being on the wave that this game is going to create.
It was their Choice to add PvP to all aspects of the game, their own fault if it kills their game. Loss aversion is a way stronger motivator than any positive motivation you can put in a game, there is a reason PvP MMOs have tiny playerbases. They are playing with fire to have PvP tied to caravans and shipping, the players shipping their items already have the reward; you are asking them to PvP just to keep it. The First time a PvE only player pulls up the menu to start a caravan, sees it can be raided en route, they are going to drop your game. Raiding Cities and rival nodes is much easier for a PvE player to accept, it is regularized and scheduled.
If they misjudge the audience they think exists (And I don't think it does, at least not int he numbers they are going to need) they are going to be speedrunning dead game status.
I think the argument between PvP and PvE is misunderstood. As long as the gameplay is entertaining people will play it, regardless if it's against other players or the environment. What matters is that I'm hanging out with people I enjoy playing with, not really what we're doing.
I think people are against PvP in MMOs because WoW's PvP is straight ass. It's not fun hitting a target for 10 minutes straight just for them to keep healing.
I've played WoW since 2008. I find the PvP boring so I only do PvE with the boys.
I've played LoL since 2015. When the seasons are fun the game is a blast. I play less LoL now because I don't find the PvP as fun.
I've recently gotten into Valorant. I find the PvP fun so I've been playing it the most rn.
Again my point is that fun gameplay will speak for itself.
@@lordyasha5944 this is simply because people don't like mmos, they like co-op games.
@@lordyasha5944 People who sit in one spot are easy targets to give intel on and become the ganked
The thing is you can grief in PvE and PvP. A lot of MMO people want to play only solo, basically Skyrim with an internet connection.
I think Wakfu had a really interesting gathering system with ecosystem management playing a factor; things outside of ore veins didn't really respawn on their own, so you had to spend some of your resources replanting to keep the ecosystem at a certain level. This included mobs as well, as you could harvest materials from them that let you spawn more.
Exactly! Wakfu had disgusting paywalls pretty deep into the game but the gathering system and to an extent the faction system was very refreshing.
Ashes was purely made for a PvP experience similar to ArchAge or Lineage , but Ashes also has systems for more casual players , PvP always on doesnt mean if you see a random person you can hit them right away , in most games you still have to flag yourself to be able to hit other players, other players if hit first can hit back without flagging for self defence , there will also be certain areas that contain more PvP depending on resources, the best way to have a PvE style server is to have a community driven realm which they deem as PvE focused . the comparison of FACTION based PvP is not acceptable in alot of PvPvE (PvX) there is no factions.
STOP BS there s no sistem for causal player there isnt content for them .The game isnt made for 90% of mmo players solo/casual/rp it made for pvpers and craft/gather players that barely enough of them alive.
@@anteprs7908 ???? Bro...I can tell u rn...there are more than enough...craft/gather , PvP players...
@@thebranmuffin8502 compaired ot casual or solo player it not even close but at best ashes will have 1 mil player for 3 months then die down ot 200k tops andi am being super kind about it
PvP players just want ONE game where their fun doesn't have to be neutered to appease carebears.
We used to have lineage 2 before nc soft went full cash grab.
Their "Fun" usually comes at the price of someone else's fun thereby having Net zero fun. Carebears keep games alive; PvP Grieflords kill games.
There are people living from a game that doesnt exist and I LOVE IT
ayo 💀
Doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about it. I just hate the fact that there are other MMORPG's that exist that have similar systems and these people base the argument that those games died DUE to the pvp. When in reality that's wrong. Archeage did not die due to the World PVP such assumptions hurt and attempt to legitimize why the game itself needs to be PVE only. The systems of Ashes are built upon previous games that came before it but improved (e.g Archeage, Lineage 2, Darkfall).
I can't speak for the other 2 games, but Archeage itself didn't die to world pvp. The game died to to mismanagement and miscommunications from the Korean developer XLGames to Trion Worlds. Since the game was a Korean MMORPG. XLGames applied a Pay2Win shop mechanic by making Apex (a consumable item in the game that allows you to redeem 1200 Credits and allow you to buy patreon: a subscription type for labor in game) tradable. Once they made APEX tradable via auction house. People started buying a lot of them and selling them for gold. You can only get APEX at the in game Marketplace through credits.
The game was also riddled by botters, spammers, exploiters, cheaters, and land grab programs. This game had a korean anticheat(Hackshield) that was super easy to get around at launch. This problem continued on until they implemented EasyAntiCheat when Archeage Unchained came out. But by the time they implemented it. The game was already dead. with only a few lingering players still left to this day.
In Stevens vision towards ashes. I can see that he wants to recreate these lost systems that were fun from old games that were miss handled by greedy publishers/devs. These systems actually work great, but only if handled properly. I've played Runescape, Neverwinter, Blade and Soul, Revelation Online, Archeage, and Guild Wars 2. Yet none of them but Archeage had the best memorable experience I have had in any MMORPG.
@@joostleisder1956 yup, like Jesus and church things
@@joostleisder1956 if you're talking about religion that's your opinion, you don't know for a fact that these things don't exist. Higher power vs big bang that randomly created everything out of nothing, both are equally mind boggling and cannot be proven.
Cant wait to see what theyre going to do with the necromancer class
I just wonder if there will be true stealth or some nonsense not working bullshit :D otherwise, I believe classes will all be great, I especially wonder about bards, this is not much present in other games... overlooked class and rogue ofc, that's my main :D
@@cooller8888 It's already wellknown that there won't be true invisible. You will go transparent, kinda like zeratul or nova in heroes of the storm. I guess you cant be selected or targeted, but if they can see you with naked eye then they know you are in there and can spam AoEs I suppose, maybe dmg makes you leave the "invi" btw its pretty cool
@@gonmordevol7245 no that's fake news. Steven and no other from the studio says this. There is just no information about this at all... also there is multiple archtypes of that class, so there is very much possible some of them might have true stealth, it would make perfect sense. Why are you even doing this? All the time I see someone like you I feel sick... presenting your own opinion as a "well-known" fact. Like, wtf is wrong with you? Shame on you.
@King DJ damn you can see the future? How about the powerball numbers?
@@cooller8888 I don't think a true stealth class belongs in a game where open world pvp is a core tenant to a lot of the systems.
The problem with removing PVP from any MMO, is that it makes crunch culture more prevalent, since they will have to add more content to keep players working towards an end-game content, while if there is lots of opportunities for PVP, that in itself is a big type of end-game content, that obviously may not everyone like, but at least you can still use your completely min-maxed gear.
Removing pvp from an MMO turns the MMO into a co-op game where you queue in a world rather then a loading screen.
Yes sir you are right pvp is what keeps players playing when content is dry. There are always players to kill which is content in my eyes
@@negan4089 Until the only people that are left are only PvP players which, whether you like it or not are the minority.
Forced PvP = dead within 6-8 months.
Flagged PvP = play how you want, everyone is happy.
Incentivise PvP to the point that people want to flag for it. Instead of forcing it to the point people quit.
@@MrWiggz69 what’s wrong with a consistent group of pvp players? That’s exactly what bdo has and pearl abyss is now a billion dollar company
@@MrWiggz69 that's not a MMO that's a co op game.
Poor Asmon not understanding that PvX just means there are mobs and dungeons along with the PvP driven economy game. :(
As an OSRS player, it’s not fun being baited into the Wilderness by cool gameplay to be chased by people in max gear.
Predator vs Prey is Walmart Brand PvP
1200 KM^2 is about twice the area of NYC. It's quite big, but if the game's exploration and harvesting are compelling enough it could probably go even bigger.
The map is somewhere between the size of a very big city and a metropolitan area, which may be too quickly explored if the game ends up having a population similar to Lost Ark.
some dont understand the difference between pvp and forced pvp... forced pvp is what kills games
Asmon just hasn't played games like L2, EvE and Albion and talks if he knows that it is bad to have PvP on all the time. It is not only about killing people around for fun like it was in WoW back in the days. That really was just anoying. When you have a punishment system for player killers it is a whole different story. For me it was one of the most fun things in L2 when we group up to hunt down a PK when someone notice red nameplate runing around.
Exactly! When you realize how much pvp helps the economy youll never want to step foot in a pve open world again. Better to just play skyrim/far cry/ assassins creed or whatever if you want to chill and lean back with a extra large slurpee in a huge open world.
Albion was a bad game for PvE casuals. Roving groups of 3-7 players ganking solo gatherers made for stressful gathering. Most PvE casuals don't play games to get stressed. The only reason Albion is as big as it is is the F2P model and the ads that draw PvE players in for a few months before they quit.
@@thechloromancer3310 they made it where you can travel from Black zone to blue zone takes 60 seconds and has a cooldown, the portal zones are cities now, and theres alot more solos especially with the new update in 9 days, the Mists, zones for no more than 2 or 4 people and they close like every 2-5 minutes, I agree the groups suck just gotta avoid them and find other solos / duos and slaughter them and take their stuff and laugh at PvE casual mmos on your way back to get ganked :D unless you escape
A thing Asmon touched on which i love is that to be passionate about games you dont need to be a sweaty pvp player. Im perfectly ok with using games to relax after my days at work and streaming to my 3 viewers 😂
if it's possible to keep servers with 10000 ppl online 89 nodes and the size of the map is perfect. I can see it coming together really well. Even people spending more time in transit is not really an issue.
How wasting people on transit time (literal downtime) isn't an issue? It needs to be taken into account.
@@Wehue because then people will chill in the movement time, ie group calls, disc calls, meeting at a time and place is held to more importance, meaning more people will do it. making community events stronger. ive seen it in very few games, but i think it should work, if not, they can change it later.
what they cant do is have it in then take it out, everyone would be angy
10k per server, I don't believe that if even Amazon couldn't get close to that.
The everybody on the same server aproach has been tried already: Life is Feudal MMO, where hordes of naked, stone axe russians destroyed everyone else's stuff. Marvelous!
That game was awesome.
Asmon: Multiple servers is a technological limitation only
Also asmon: Split the pvx game into pvp and pve servers.
A game that wouldn't be released in several years(if we are lucky) is smashing it, what a great timeline we are living in.
Archage and BDO both started with amazing open world PVP. This gave people the best memories and the worst memories.
Today both games open world PVP has been ruined for various reasons.
Asmongold norally has good takes but not in this video.
@@joostleisder1956 So true. AoC will break records on release and within 6 months, with forced PvP, 90% will have left. Within a year, without changes it will be dead.
AoC is just Star citizen, essentially. Both games promise so much but will not deliver.
- I don't see the point on speculating about things that may be or not...
- Makes 30 minutes of speculating how good it's going to be.
Damm I miss Classic Tera the more I see all these MMOs. They had the best combat hands down and the Archer felt amazing for an MMORPG.
asmon like almost every MMO player sees mmos through his own perspective and applies to the majority
He’s never played Ultima Online, L2, Archage or really gotten in BDO proper, so his perspective is effectively that of a casual who has been catered to by most devs (WoW, GW2, FF14, ESO, NW, etc).
The PvP games all found success, all held back by their bullshit monetization or age (UO). I have played both sides of the aisle, the best living worlds are from the PvP ones, hell even in PvE friendly EVE (if you’re a miner or a trader), anything that matters happen due to PvP elements.
I just want to see a western game that pushes the promise behind those PvP focused games, without the monetization. Archeage, BDO, and EVE all prove there’s a place for PvE centric players, while having the PvP experience be the real meat and potatoes.
That’s what Steven is promising, that is why Ashes is interesting to me.
"Why an MMO that hasn't released yet is smashing it." - Every pre-launch MMO ever
For someone who never played Archege, Lineage, or Ultima, he has a lot of opinions on a game based on those 3
They do pay him a lot lmao.
I think the implication that pvp is inherently "toxic" isn't true. I understand that Asmon doesn't like it because of his very unique situation, but the risk that the threat of pvp introduces carries excitement. We called it the "pvp shakes" in Eve. When you know you stand to lose something meaningful, but if you win you stand to gain something meaningful ... the adrenaline and endorphins these engagements release feels incredible. Maybe they could even take a page from Eve and have "safe" zones, "low security" zones, and "no security" zones where the penalties for engaging in pvp change.
You also completely missed the point he made then. Asmon basically said that people and alot of them at that, do not want that stressful engagement. They just want a break away from the real world, where they can relax, maybe with a few friends and enjoy the world they are playing in. Not being worried about being ganked by Timmy and his goons.
If this game launches without an opt out option, it will be dead within a few months. Just like every other PvP-centric game. PvE casuals are what keeps games alive, not the sweats.
when you attack sombody without there consent there is not a non toxic way t it and what mister wiggles said is true too
In an old MMO "Silkroad Online," there was also the possibility of delivering goods from city to city. You could still sign up for "Thiefs, Trader, Hunter" in three groups. The system was so good and made a lot of fun. The trader asked Hunter if they would go from town X to townY with him or further distant cities gave more gold at the end. On the way, NPCS was always hanging around the trader trying to destroy the transport the Hunter was protecting. The "Thiefs" players were able to attack the trader from 2Star (Ware in Transport) and of course the Hunters. It was mega cool and if you didn't feel like running a lot of stars because it was risky because of Thiefs (player) you just made 1 Star Trades. After the trader arrived in town, he gave it up at an NPC and the Hunters were also rewarded with gold with a % set. The more the "fractions" Thiefs, Trader, Hunter revealed, there were skins for occupations (that was before battlepass existed similarly to describe.
The reason Ashes is so interesting to me is the fact that they try to make a system that focuses on player interaction within the node system.
Groups formed to help and protect nodes and their citizens, player-driven objectives, taking risks to gather resources, and a thriving economy because of that risk.
Sure, the system might not work well during the alphas, betas, or even release. But, I'd love to see them try instead of shutting it down.
@@CallMeTeci Because its fun and different than other themepark MMOs.
Sandbox games that has objectives and goals driven by players like Minecraft and Rust are fun to play and gameplay does not need to heavily rely on content provided by the devs.
Combining them together with other MMO aspects to make a sandpark style MMO is exciting.
They just need to implement it right, and adjust accordingly.
I'm not saying that other theme park MMO is not fun, I just want Ashes to have a new and different identity and approach to the MMO genre.
@@CallMeTeci not "forced" incentivized interaction
I'm afraid the game is already attracting the most toxic people again. That's the worst part of pvp orientated games. It's not that that I dislike pvp games. But the communities always suck. And games like this always need a large time investment. The community interactions become more important when you have to invest more time into it. Meaning you have to deal with that toxic behavior for many hours. It turns me off the game for that reason already. I was looking forward to this game at first. But I don't think I'll buy it on release. I probably wait to see how the community develops.
The problem with the PvP/PvE debate is that no one is talking about ways to make PvE players WANT to dip their toes in PvP. Give these PvE players options to get involved while experiencing greater reqards and losing less when they die, and at least they'll see their eventual death as a win, since they've gathered more (even with the loss incurred in death) than they would have by just sticking to safe zones and tame play.
It is up to the devs and community to explore good and well balanced options to make this a reality.
Asmon: go play counterstrike if you want pvp
Everyone not throwing a fit: go play bouncy goat climb if you want pve
Counterstrike is skill-based and Ashes is gear-based. Not really the same target audience. PvPers in MMOs rarely can compete in purely skill-based games, which is why they prefer gear-based mmo pvp in the first place
@@jamaly77 it might be gear "based" but you can still get skilled in mmos. All of that is factual but has little to do with the point I was making. Yall crying about not getting something they never said they would do. Is like crying about no open world pvp in Sims. Sure open world pvp in sims might make the game better "for you" but the devs did not make the game necessarily for you. If they want to make the game they want to make they are entitled to do so. If you wanna complain about a bunch of shit your not entitled to, then your also entitled to do so
Most MMO Players: I'm sick of this Content Treadmill, Theme Park MMO's suck!
Most MMO Players reacting to Ashes: What do you mean I have to make my own choices, and others choices can effect mine? Where is the Content Treadmill? I just want to get on and have the game hold my hand through a bunch of pre-planned content with the boys, like a Theme Park MMO!
SMH, its the WOW brainrot.
in regards to wow world boss pvp. I was part of a coalition on firemaw in WoW classic trying to contest bosses from the top guilds and the only thing that made it bad was the server being completely unable to handle the amount of people in the same zone. It was really fun mayhem that I remember fondly tho we only scored like 2 boss kills.
It was fun because that is what an MMO is supposed to be. People are just in denial that they want to play co-op games not MMOs
6:55 Oh well, those people were never going to stick around anyway.
Archeage had alot of land to explore and it was amazing...I love vast open world to explore. It took me a long time to travel from one end of the ocean to the other looking for treasure..... even with the large vast ocean I still ran across people that forced pvp, but allowed enough vast area that you could get things done as well.
Well, about pvp system its kind of like in Lineage 2, but in L2 if you die when you are red, you can lose some of you gear. If the same system will be in AoC, I dont see any problem about pvp system.
Of course, there will always be players who will want to kill everyone, but there will also be those who will hunt them and help other players.
I am hoping the magic is a lot like Dragon Age, those mages are badass.
The current pve-only mmo’s yield a max of 2 mil players. While that isn’t a small margin, I don’t think it’s reason to prioritize it. During wrath, pvp servers were the most popular, and that was during the 12 mil player era.
There’s a lot of emotional defense going on this vid that ends in disproving his own points.
I think if a player doesn't want pvp involved in getting items from point a at point b, then they buy it at point b for more money, or sell it at point a for less. It's pretty straight forward.
It's pretty early to be certain but this whole last half of arguing about pvp servers is stupid because pvp does not seem to be mandatory. There's supposed to be a system that punishes griefing so it's not like new world where you'll see people battling at the gates of cities camping faction member quest paths, etc. So, it's important to see what exactly they will have in place closer to finishing development.
The best pvp system i ever played was the bounty hunter system, ppl enlist in two rival cities to hunt heroes from the other City, you go to the militia, get a name, the target location and go hunting, ppl that dont want in, just play the regular game, but there was rewards exclusive to players who did pvp
they really need make tracking corrupted players really easy and killing them very lucrative.
the more corrupted a player is the farther opposing players can see them on the map and the bigger the reward for killing them
@@Thanatos2k but its a random enemy target dude
I actually disagree with Asmon here. I DONT think you need to cater to everyone. I think thats a fools errand. If PVP and PVP interactions are essential to the game and how the studio want it to play than its a PVP game and thats that. Not every game has to be for everyone. When you start making those PVP moment easier, and watering down the content because you're catering to "casuals", it doesnt do favours for anyone. If people want servers with PVE only, then fine, but i even think thats stupid.
@@DaShikuXI but what about caravans and the ocean? They are optional, I guess, but huge parts of the game. You can't allow people to do that without PvP...
@@EthanfromEngland- caravans are there to transport large amounts of good, if you're solo your backpack is enough for your needs
I'd go further on the caravan system and "people don't want to risk materials taking them from A to B" and say "people don't want to have to transport between A and b". I foresee Ashes pulling a New World and having to remove many of these "cool on paper" ideas like localized storage.
asmons' takes on pvp vs pve vs pvx is killing me
Agreed.
@@WannaComment2 Intrepid didnt create PvX
I don't see why people find it hard to grasp the concept of PVP being there to enhance the world and systems not destroy them.
Asmon saying that a PVE server and PVP server being good for the game didn't quite make sense to me either. He talked about how both have their perks, but the PVE server would feel mind numbing being that the systems wouldn't have PVP and they'd just be there to waste your time. I don't like doing something that wastes my time. I like things to be challenging but also give me good loot. If it meets those criteria then I'm happy with it.
And when someone mentioned "when a game caters to all it caters to none" and asmon said "so you agree with me." He was basically saying that making the game he wants it to be, would effectively make the game a dead game because nobody would want to play it. I don't know how he tried to turn that into an argument and think it was a good one, but that's beyond me 🤔🤦🏽♂️
@@Thanatos2k huh. There's pvp and pve so its pvx (player versus anything). It's just what it is.
The reason why this is even an issue is because most MMOs don't have a good system for law and order.
Imagine wanting to kill a player, and having to bring friends to cover it up, and wait until he is out of town and sufficiently far enough away from civilization that the crime scene discovery falls enough. When you spot the player you notice that he has hired some NPCs to act as messengers and scouts - You will have to prioritize them as they stand the best change to escape the ambush and alert the closest town/garrison with your players descriptions.
Open world PVP would become a matter of plays and counter plays prior to any attack. As PVE gets more dangerous farther from civilization grouping will be natural, as well as bringing NPC hires to complement your contingent.
Ocean PVP leaves no evidence unless both ships survive to report the attack, and the yet vanquished criminal.
Organized PVP such as duels would required player signatures and witnesses, while area's will also require signatures to verify ID and to build the participant list.
Granted such a system has never really be implemented well in a game before, as players are consequence averse. But if you are going to be killed by another player in the world, it should either be because it was your fault in not being careful and making enemies, or knowing that they will have to face high consequences for the deed. Such a system divorces PVP mostly from who has the better gear.
Lets say that you have a group of players with a variety of classes, specializations, and complementary NPCs sufficient to kill well guarded/countered players, for the sole purpose of killing/griefing as many players as possible. Naturally players with meta communications can rally to hunt them down and suffer the consequences.
Fook that. Pvp is integral to the world. This is their vision. This is something new. They are not catering to only pvp they have a whole new format where they bring both pvp and pve together. I love that. If people don’t like that, then bye ✌🏼
I think a lot of the issues with the tab v action argument came from a lack of focus displaying the action combat mode and more time being spent showing the tab target and the abilities. Almost like it was an after thought and that lead to people making assumptions (rightly or wrongly remains to be seen) about the way it will play. It was covered, but it was much less focused than the abilities and trying to make the system look flashy.
@14:00 The game is designed so that you want to stay in your node of origin most of the time to progress and defend it. Travelling the map is not supposed to be something you would even want to do unless you purely wanted to explore or maybe find another node to call home. Unlike new world, you aren't forced out of your home node to do things that progress your character. Now an exception to this will be if you are a vassal node, where your node cannot progress further. This will force you to travel to the adjacent nodes or the highest tier node you are subject to in order to progress, but this is much closer than trying to cross the map every day.
The problem with tab targeting is not the targeting but the homing missile ability attached.
In World of Warcraft you can't avoid a projectile while in Guild Wars 2 strafing is often enough to avoid the hits.
OSRS has the perfect pvp for an MMO and it was explained perfectly in this video.
You have a huge chunk of the map that is PVP only. Said area has unique loot and some of the best gold making methods in the game but the caveat is that you are forced to be PVP flagged in said area. You dont HAVE to go to this area, there's plenty of other really good viable gold making methods that don't involve going into this place but if you're willing to take the risk you can go in there to farm items. This also gives PVP players who want to PVP their only sandbox in the world to have their own fun and participate in that part of the game.
Honestly a bad example, OSRS pvp is extremely divisive in the community and basically run by a few clans. Its pretty far from a 'perfect' pvp system.
Also, the wilderness is a complete wasteland save for a few hotspots and even then you spend most of your time hopping worlds trying to find someone.
Except there's so much non-pvp/pve-related rewards in the wilderness.
Why do I have to enter pvp and defeat hundreds of bosses when all I really wanted was to hit rocks better? (Dragon Pickaxe is only available in the wilderness)
Why do I have to enter pvp when I just want to solve puzzles? (There are so many clue scroll locations in the wilderness, the rewards aren't even better if you do go in)
Why do I have to enter pvp to enjoy some of the questlines? (There are even some npcs where you can't really read their dialogue because nearby pve mobs keep interupting it)
Quite often, people are there because they have no choice if they want to progress. If the wilderness only offered pvp rewards, and also pve rewards that have low effectiveness, non-pvp alternatives, then you could say that the wilderness is truly optional.
@@allachor concept is great just poor excecution. multi combat is generally horrible and it took them 15 years to fix singles so its actually 1v1. the money you make in the wildy is hardly worth it for most players. hardly any reason to go there for another purpose than anti pking or nh pking
This world should be huge. We need huge worlds in mmos
13:20 but this isn't going to be quest lines like that, your quest are node based, I doubt they are going to have quest that require you to go somewhere to talk to the hermit about fishing.
You would have to play Lineage 2 to understand how world bosses or bosses in general work in open world PVP game. Some of my best memories comes from 200v200 alliance vs alliance(each alliance had multiple clans cooperating) PVPs for the world boss. The world boss was instanced, but once you started the encounter with the boss nobody else could enter, so there was PVP for that spot to enter to the instance. For normal bosses there was this kind of open world PVP where anyone could kill anyone, so you had to watch the back at all times. Once there was this much of a PVP involved in the game including castle sieges, fortress sieges, clan hall sieges etc. there was also diplomacy involved, because clans had to cooperate to be able to get to world bosses or high end stuff. If you take all these things from a PVP centric game you end up with a bad game and i see mostly WOW players complaining about it, because PVP in WOW was one of the worst PVP systems i ever saw.
I mean, Ashes isnt going to be a walking simulator where you go from point A to point B.
just stay in point A and go to point C instead, or point XYZ.
The only certain methods PvE players usually employ to avoid PvP is quit or don't play the game. Which is ok for the players but i doubt it will be ok for the game.
My only argument for MMO pvp is that it brings a unique type of gameplay no other game really captures quite the same in having a variety of tools to respond or set up with in combat.
MOBAs took on a very dumbed down version of ability rotations, but there's something special about having a massive kit to work with along with it being your very own customized and named characters you can level up and fight with.
That being said, pvp should always be optional, and any pvp servers that exist should always limit factions to keep sides as evenly stacked as possible.
steven said there will never be a toggle or only pve server ever. good everyone elses dont play and fuck off. And everybody supprised it was a given info from the creation of the project.
They JUST changed a PvP game to PvE in New World.
Leave this one alone. Let it complete its vision.
I dunno dude, I think mmo's are meant to be about the interactions between players. The PVE only mmo's are for solo andy's which imo is what kills the most mmo's by far. Just makes them feel like a singleplayer game that you play with other people running around you.
You dont wanna fight or pvp to transfer your stuff? Interact with other players and pay them a fee to transport it for you. Make some sorta mutually beneficial deal.
I understand asmongolds cynical business minded perspective.
But business minded perspectives are imo to some relevant extent what has trashed that genre. This is a passion project and they've added so many things that would be consider 'wasteful' from a business minded perspective but that in return is continously making the game seem more and more promising.
But again, we will see after playtesting has been done and the feedback is coming in.
Beautiful comment
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
They chose to put PvP in every aspect of the game. The issue is not that you are asking a PvE player to engage in PvP; it is that you are asking PvE player to engage in PvP and they will lose all their stuff if it goes poorly. There is a reason PvP MMOs cater to a tiny subset of the audience; Loss Aversion is orders of magnitude more powerful a psychological motivator than almost any other one you can have in a video game. My prediction, at this Alpha 2 point in time, is that if this game launched now, it would have a massive starting playerbase, then once the PvE players in the various outer nodes have reached the point where they need to ship their items to the central cities and villages and get raided for the first time you will see massive drop off.
Leave PvP to the City and Nodes Raiding, having the casuals get griefed just moving their stuff is stupid.
@@Sevaria Every memorable moment Ive had in every mmo Ive played since 2004 have had something to do with unscripted worldpvp related events.(with the exception of a few pve related events like first time I ever killed a raid boss and such). This seems to the case for most people on the occausions where people on voice end up tumbeling down memory lane.
This speculation about the application of psychological hypothesis and theories on relatively vague game design concepts such as "world pvp with consequences to storage" are just that. Speculations.
Ive played pure pvp mmos, pure pve mmos and pvx mmos. Personally, which again also seems a fairly shared experience, the 'magic' mainly lies the unscripted pvp events. Pve has initial novelty that seems to fade quickly and turns bland as it escalates into the problem of content draught.
But again, all this is speculation in varying ways. All I ask is that people let Intrepid try to make stevens vision work first before they tear it apart and start replacing it with the game design philosophies of random internet speculators such as us :)
PS: For the record Im like 80% pve and 20% pvp in my own playstyle.
You're one comment... "Every game that has tried PvP is dead or dying". That is 100% not true. The sad reality is.. That ALL MMORPGS are dead or dying. Solely because they are not staying true to their roots, and that their entire purpose is to BRIBE you to stay logged in through quick dopamine hits. This is not how MMORPGs used to function like. They were a place you can go, log in, and get lost it. Build friendships and join communities, and log in because of the social interactions and/or just login to escape reality for a little bit.
World Bosses in WOW Classic were sometimes chaotic. But it felt REALLY good when your group managed to down the boss while also defending the spawn.
People are acting like this game is designing PvP around free for all murder mayhem wherever you are and its not. Its highly highly discouraged systems wise to kill people. You just have the option to if you want.
Mayhaps if more MMOS actually designed their games to be more like how ashes is going in terms of direction, we'd actually see a resurgence of the MMORPG genre.
But for now, its all quick dopamine hits, try to get people to log in everyday to do their dailies at least.
The game shouldn't "reward you" for logging in. It should just be so good that you ACTUALLY WANT TO.
The amount of work the devs would have to do to make a pve server is an insane amount, by the end it would be a drastically different game, you have to remember in order to make a pve server most of the systems would need a drastic overhaul and then the team would have to balance what is essentially two different games from there. The game has been designed from the beginning for pvp to be a core part of it. Almost if not every system has pvp ingrained into it, its a significantly bigger ask than i think a lot of people are realizing.
Could be an interesting experiment to just make minimal changes and see how bad the imbalance actually is, while letting PvP adverse players decide whether the imbalance is worth it or not. I wouldn't mind seeing a PvE experimental server during beta.
What surprises me is how many people are wanting pve servers all of a sudden. Intrepid has been very transparent from the beginning and making pvp an integral part of the game has always been one of their goals while designing everything. There are so few mmos that focus on pvp or just have bad/scarce pvp content, i'm excited that intrepid is going this direction.
@@shaun6945 Its ppl like asmon influencing there audience even tho for most of us its gonna be great because we arent streaming. Hes worried about this being an amazing game everyone plays and he cant cash in on it because hes gonna get ganked. I think how hes behaving towards this game is pretty gross and disingenuous tbh.
@Max Rusty yeah the only people that really have to worry about griefers are streamers so it makes sense why they're so against the idea 😂
Its far, far simpler than you think. You dont really need to change any of the fundamentals of the game, you just have servers with greater and lesser values for the effects of corruption. If you have servers with massive corruption penalties and others with minimal corruption effects then those servers will `lean` more toward PVE or PvP respectively.
the issue with not having pvp is that the entire game is based around pvp. towns, cities, ships, caravans.
I see points from both perspectives. However I do think it's hard to compare wow to ashes with wow having the faction system that can cripple th pvp itself. If that makes sense.
If that's your real name, watching Pokemon must've been funny for you ;)
Steve said in 2017 that he is making a pvp game focused on the world and that this game may not be for everyone. If people do not want pvp at all then AoC is not for them. He has also said he is not worried about revenue and will fund the game himself. I think it’s important to remember that in 2017 this game broke the kickstarter funding record for mmos with pvp as the priority. Strict pve only people already have many mmos. I want to be the knight in shining armor and save people. That means I need some of those toxic people to be the bad guy.
Edit: Ho read lazypeon’s comment. He makes a great argument on pvpve design concepts.
He is funding it sure, but if the game is not profitable (40+ million spent and growing) he will just write it off. And if you pay attention to the way they talk they don't call it PvP, they call it PvX and the game literally will not function without a massive number of PvE andys.
@@Sevaria They have always called it pvpve. It’s not a pvp game because there is zero pve, it’s a pvp game because the entire game and its systems are designed around pvp. The node system is the equivalent or a raid in wow. The competition between nodes and the player requirement to build and defend those zones is the center of the game. Yes someone could go collect herbs and never engage in pvp, but it’s still a pvp game.
As much as I would like to get hype for this game, considering even AAA devs causes too much hype then flopping... Yeah I would be concerned for AoC, giving too much hype for the game can cause big backlash...
I think I'll wait for the full release first... Since even on beta testing there might be problems (like server issues and bugs) at launch... Then I'll decide for myself if this is worth to play or not.
I won't get too hyped because I am still not sure of the full world PVP. People like to point to a few examples were games worked but for the most part... Def in this day and age no games survie long that launch like that
@@danielsolorzano8623 I think the karma system is a good way to combat griefing.
@@RealTaIk Life is Feudal and Mortal Online we’re both full world always-PvP games that never were able to go beyond super niche communities because that’s realistically a good example of how many people actually want to play with that gameplay style. Most people do not want full PvP/full loot games; if they did then game devs would be profiting off of those people.
@@RealTaIk Let me explain this as i have a few games worth of experience with similiar kind of system.
Lineage II, BDO, Space Cowboy, BnS, Age of Wushu, and Cabal are what i can list off the top of my head.
[Note : i saw your misunderstanding. A MMORPG can be any perspective, First person included, its just not very popular though]
First, they are niche among the niche. MMORPG became a niche genre over the years. People love plug-and-play style of games much more than investing time and money on a lengthy RPG, let alone MMORPG. 90% of MMORPG playerbase are casual and what people called "carebears that do not like their time wasted by getting killed on a whim by a sweaty or a griefer.
Second, this kind of games has hostile playerbase who will chase people away if they ever dare to voice their dissatisfaction of getting killed randomly. "Go play other games", "this is not for carebears", "you carebears are p-----", "lmao i love killing people like you"; these quotes are often found examples. Remember, casual and carebears are income generators due to sheer population, and do not care for power-related stuffs as much. Chasing them away will always lead to bad word of mouth, leading to no growth in playerbase. We don't even have to talk about griefers who love seeing people quit and seal-clubbing nature of them.
Third, with less and less playerbase leading to less revenue, content update would be far less regular or not at all. This is where the downward slope starts. To combat less revenue, more monetization is needed. However, with less casual and carebears, monetization needs to be gravitate toward the remaining players who are most likely to pay for convenience or progression or dump all the resources into pumping out things to sell rather than improving the game. Operation cost is high, and development cost is even higher. A vicious loop that is even worse in free-to-play games.
Fourth, an important one, too much focus on conflict-combat and neglecting things that makes RPG an RPG. A RPG world should be for everyone to enjoy. Player interaction days of shouting LFM LFP, killing or getting killed are over, people who still think like that will always have my deepest sympathy. MMORPG players want more deeper experiences like getting to know people with similair interests, being in a community that is not hostile or fractured, getting to do things they love and build something out of the game system, or a good story.
For the past 20 years of gaming, this kind of games has almost no staying power with more and more competitors like MOBA and FPS.
If someone make a game in this genre, it will most likely be dead in a few years, or even months. Still, developing a PVE centric game is much harder, and more expensive than a PVP centric game. It simply has a lot more things to consider and implement.
The only MMORPG that has a constant growing playerbase now is FFXIV, and people call it "the retirement home of MMO players". Let that sink in for a moment.
@@RealTaIk FFXIV playerbase grows in every expansion for almost a decade now. Growing playerbase is count on average though, not peak. Looking at steam chart from 2014 to 2022, average player count grows steadily with every expansion, with small bumps for patches every 3 (currently 4) months and large bumps for expansions. Most people don't play it on steam, but it went from 5k in average for 2018 to 22k in average for 2022. Thats 4 times the size...... in 4 years. 5k in average was a few months before ShB, and 22k was almost a year after Endwalker. Obviously growing.
People come and go because the game was designed to be relaxing rather than demanding, but they usually come back for patch day and launch day, so FFXIV doesn't really lose playerbase. Meanwhile, those returning players will invite their friends to come along.
In other games, people might advise against playing the game, like me and BDO for example.
Playing multiple MMOs or games is not weird at all, i played tons of them for 20 years before i find a stable home aka FFXIV. Still, i always play other games, right now im playing Divinity 2 while subbing to FFXIV.
I already tried New World, it didn't click though.
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Those game are not PVE-centric, PVE content were designed to be a grind for power that can be used later in PVP.
Thats the goal of PvP centric MMOs. You go PVE for power, go PVP, and go back to PVE for even more power then go back to PVP.
The gameplay loop forces you to engage in conflict to progress, or don't progress at all. It is the damn chokepoint to prevent player from progressing and ran out of content by using other players.
Korean MMOs seem to love this chokepoint very much then the Chinese came in and made it even worse than the Korean.
Jesus... openworld PK from early level, as early as 5, is the worst experience and system ever.
At least the Japanese don't like it very much.
PVE-centric games seperate PVP from PVE entirely. Even the well-known PvX like Guild Wars 2.
Guild Wars 2, imo, is actually the best PvX game in the market right now. You have the life and relaxing aspect of PVE, and a seperate full fledged PVP in small, large, and enormous scale. No openworld PK though.
FFXIV is the PVE centric one. No openworld PK, no large scale battle, only small scale PVP. Tons of life aspect and surprisingly customizable down to hair highlights and standing posture. I never care about what kind of standing posture my character has before FFXIV.
I don't think openworld PK is a problem as long as it is not mandatory or beneficial. Sadly, it is mandatory or beneficial in every game with the system, leading to an inevitable end. Even with multiple punishment systems, it will still drive off players, if not preveting them from giving a chance in the first place, because people will eventually find a way to circumvent it.
More importantly, griefing people using openworld PK system is far easier, more rewarding, and less punishing than trying to protect people from griefers by using the same system. How stupid is that?
23:00 FF11 did this to where pvp and world boss happened at the same time. Know what happened? 1 guild the entire server only killed the boss. Ever.
I played years of EQ1 and then almost a decade of WoW on a PVP server and I'm going to have to agree with Asmon on this one. If you give people a choice most will choose the PVE server in order to avoid getting jumped. Alternatively server populations will choose the faction that is largest and could even re-roll to adapt. Regarding caravans, etc, I personally think that you can add the element of danger to the game by increasing mob damage/health as you travel. If you force people to PVP they will just adapt, probably in ways that PVPers did not expect or want.
I'm a PVE player and would prefer PVE, but I feel maybe keeping PVP servers as the default and making a PVE server a separate thing would be much better for this. Y'know instead of the other way around that most MMO's do where the standard is PVE servers and then they have a PVP server.
asmongold's take on this is definitely shit. In the context of wow he is correct -- every open world kill is a net negative. It is far worse to die than it is to get the paltry honor--assuming it's even an HK.
contrast this to a game such as runescape, where you have mandatory pvp zones, that greatly contribute to the game.
@@drdorenton1060 It's his experiences with themed park MMORPGs, he's not entirely wrong but he needs to take a closer look why the approach AoC is with world PvP. Basically, needs new perspective.
@@ridgewayjulakit1612 Agreed. He only see's things from the perspective of what WoW had when it released 20+ years ago in regards to World pvp, and that's not even taking in to consideration that themepark and sandbox MMO's are wildly different. Pvp is one of, if not the biggest core foundation of Sandbox MMO's. Without it, they lose out on the very thing that people play Sandbox MMO's for, and that is the interaction between players and the world and the communities people build and rivalries and events people create, because that's what a Sandbox is about, players creating their own content and stories within a world.
@@brokchus1352 Trade runs are essentially a PvP event, so even if bots were running them, they'd be vulnerable to literally everyone in the game and be an easy target to attack and gain resources for yourself. If they do bot, they're not gonna fight back with any sort of skill or competency against a group of people actively trying to kill them.
Lol what's the point in moving caravans or crossing oceans with goods for a high reward with no risk, that's the whole point of risking the goods and then getting a shit ton of gold if you succeed(HIGH risk/HIGH reward). If you've experienced that type of game play in ArcheAge maybe you would understand, it's actually fun, and if you don't want the risk, don't do it or get good. :)
I think that a server is fine but most servers should be as design, pvp. this is supposed to be a pvp game with risk reward, they can add safety measures if needed but being like remove open world pvp is a bad take.
You have to understand that the majority of would-be players don't want mandatory PvP though. They like the setting for the world, the style etc and want to experience it without having to worry about the stress that PvP can bring.
Those sort of players keep games alive because they are active players, paying players that will happily shell out money for the dumbest cosmetic shit. The sweaty PvP guilds wont, their only goal is to make other peoples experince horrible.
Now picture this, you are just out for a run in the park. Beautiful day, you're having a great day. Now I come up behind you, trip you up and steal your phone. You aren't gonna turn around and say 'gg bro', are you? Why should a game be anything different? Especially when games are an escape for so many people in the first place.
@@MrWiggz69 lol I get what your saying and I definitely think a player should be able to work around it to an extent, but that the game is designed to have risk reward and I am down for that. The penalty should be high enough to discourage greifing, and systems should be in place to reward anti griefing bounty hunting, but I like the game design and don't want them to make it generic X already out mmo.
I don’t play a lot of PVP servers but I do believe there’s a difference between “griefing” and PVPing. If you just wait outside of town and gank kids are you really PVPing?
Wow is a bad example because there are only two teams. AoC will have at least as many teams as there are guilds.
And the other argument wasn't that the system was integral to the game, it was that the system was integral to other systems in the game.
I love the start with "The reason I want a short video..."
Queue to 45 minutes of commentary :D
This game is heavily inspired by Archeage so ofcourse pvp is a central part of the game design, Archage and most of pvp mmorpg died because of the pay to win not because the pvp
Nah pvp games die because the only pvp crowd is pretty tiny.
@@SwSDemom Albion isn’t dead and is a pvp mmo
@@DaShikuXI Last time I tried it the servers seemed plenty populated to me. Have you actually played Albion?
@@raikaru0 there are plenty of pvp focused mmos that are dead. Like he majority of them die because face it, PvP is a mini game in mmos. There’s a reason why mobas make much better PvP games. Every match has the capacity to be completely different. Builds and characters can be changed a lot faster than in an mmo. And at some point in an MMO the hardcore players reach their peak and functionally stop anyone new from being able to play the game because of the gear/ item diff.
@@SwSDemom None of this is related to anything i said
The RISK creates VALUE to the goods... like what it's so hard to understand.
I'm really interested in the surveying tool , is it locked to a node structure or can you just deploy in anywhere? also can you move already deployed ones ?
i get its great for content, but the more i see asmon talk about ashes the more his wow-head mentality shines through... its not like he cant talk about these topics but he's so clearly biased on some points he makes that it's really weird to think of him as someone who knows what he's talking about (except for him being a ~15 year long wow addict).
welp, guess i'll just need to walk that off and accept things for what they are.
I don't miss the days of trying to get into a raid and having guilds camp the entrance or come in on the last 4% health of a world boss and take the guild down. I played a PvP server from Vanilla WoW through WotLK. So happy when I finally moved to a PvE server. New World built the game specifically for PvP and then had to reward people to turn it on.
Ashes doesn't have forced open world pvp though, it has open world flag up pk system which is subtle but VERY different open world pvp implies that you can easily attack everyone with no consequences whereas a flagging system allows people to attack each other but introduces consequences for people that abuse it the issue with wow is that it wasn't well designed or fixed and amazon didn't give 2 shits about new world and again it wasn't designed too well in the first place and quite simple didn't care enough to address the flaws properly so they just ended up making a quick fix that broke the game
@@onyx4469 We'll see if that's what ends up in game but sounds like they're on the right track. Thanks for the reply!
@@kurlus7930 np bro I understand there's been a lot of confusion due to crazy ghosts video never liked the guy he's been wrong on every vid he's ever made on every mmo not just the ashes one
Your theme park mindset when trying to tackle a sandpark game does literally nothing for no one.
Asmon still hasn't realised, that AoC doesn't want to compete with current AAA-corporate games in the genre. It is not designed to target the biggest audience possible. He just can't fathom, that someone wants to create something different. His point is, that if you don't want to get as much money as possible you're doomed to fail.
but ashes claim it wil lchange the mmo genre and it will bring back mmorpgs how will it do that if it doesnt offer content for solo/casual/rp player who are 90% of the playerbase the game is for craft/gather an pvp player who are niche part of the whole mmo community .
@@anteprs7908 You don't change something by fitting the mold
@@mortvald it wont change anything if the game wont be for casuals
being able to transport goods from one place in the world where they are abundant to another place in the world where they are scarce should be greatly rewarding.
Also I think that it should come at a risk, the risk of getting intercepted on the road.
I also like the idea that people can hire other players or guilds to protect their caravans, the idea that they can fund players who are not interested in playing the economy but can still contribute to them as bodyguards. This creates a diversity on making gold, no longer will high end pve or pvp players be forced to grind like everyone else.
Also Asmon callling people annoying and abnoxious because they disagree with his opinion is cringe. Reminds me of the intolerant woke crowd demonizing anyone who disagrees with their agenda, claiming to be the voice that protects the weak and targetting outsiders as violent griefters, shame on you Asmon. I think we are witnessing your "get woke go broke" downfall in real time. Been a viewer since Catdany;s days and this is dissapointing to say the least.
His forced caravan pvp thing is interesting. The person traveling can pay players to protect his cargo and stuf. Sounds cool
If players can ......reduce player progress instead of just stalling....... That's already cancer and abusable....and will kill the game
I think it is a great idea to have both like what runescape did. Where the wilderness is the risk vs reward situation where u take good amount of risk to farm in a pvp zone and get greater rewards if u succeed in the farming. It is a not bad idea. It satisfies people who want to simply take risk and pk to earn a good amount of rewards. The payload crate from point A to point B can be choose which route u want to take. If you want to take the shortest route, you have to take the route where it intersect with the pvp zone and others will be safe routes but take way longer.
a huge problem in new world was the flagging system for pvp. you could just endlessly gather mats without risk flooding the market, destroying the economy. AoC needs to cater to their audience. it is inherently pvp focused. its not for everyone and it shouldnt be. if you try to appeal to everyone you will be sub optimal in every aspect.
The more I hear about this game, the more I think this will have the same trajectory as New World, for somewhat different reasons: very strong start, then the playerbase falling off a cliff a few months in. Because with a strong start, botfarms, RMT merchant, sweatlords who can play for 16 hours a day and grievers will appear in force, making casual players too frustrated and just leave for greener pastures. Once they leave in droves, a lot of these toxic players will also leave, since without unwashed masses to grief, where's the "fun".
Hate that a lot of people are fking retarded greefers
Too many PKers ambushing caravans would severely limit the supply of goods in a particular area. The price of those goods will rise accordingly. Which makes both caravanning more popular and lucrative and disdain for ambushers rise. A balance will be achieved. The key is to make caravanning extremely worthwhile.
just like in archeage, you can hire 'mercenaries' and pay them to escort you while transporting your goods. it's risk vs reward, if you want to gain the best profit, don't do it but if you want safety get some people to protect your caravan at lower profit.
Fundamentally, Ashes requires open world pvp for many of its systems (nodes, bounties, caravans, etc). They would probably be reduced to bad systems under a pve server. The key to making world pvp acceptable to casual players is to make it so that griefing has consequences that make it a rare behavior. This is something that many MMO's have failed or completely ignored. Steven is trying to come out of the gate with a good system that does just that. Then they have to innovate with it to cover loopholes that players inevitably find.
I think Albion has one of the best PVE and PVP system where its not full pvp and its not fully pve, but at the same time new players and veterans can fight whoever they like as long as the other party accepts the risk of losing everything or not.
I disagree with you asmon, Peon is right... pvE servers are TERIBLE IDEA no matter what you said, just NO. Pass. Thank you, bye.
Tbh this game is about territorial control so having a huge map is a good thing, EvE is insanely big yet all of the free nullsec territory is mostly dead and controlled by giant entities with big dick skillpoints and even bigger compensator ships...
This is a bad take by asmon. They are developing a game for these pvp systems. Why should they change everything for a demographic that they aren't even making the game for? That's like going to a Mexican restaurant and demanding you get Italian food.
Because their game is going to crash and burn if they don't get those PvE players to play it, PvP MMOs are tiny and they have already spent 40 million on AoC to date with likely another 40 to be spent by the time it launches.
As a Super veteran Archeage gamer, i can honestly say that PVE killed the game. As far as competing for world bosses is essential because the boss drop Godly items and gives other guilds a UP on weapons. I wish Asmon would actually talk to a Open World MMO Gamer. Btw PvX means PvP and PvE at the same time.
the argument that if you want pvp, you should play a "pvp game" like counter strike is dumb asfk. some people want to pvp in an mmo. some people only want to pvp in an mmo. some people want a game specifically designed with that in mind, from the ground up. kind of like ashes. crazy huh. i wonder why so many people backed it. dont destroy this game by using your platform to change its direction. allow it to be what it is supposed to be. and if what it is, isnt the game for you, then move on and play something else. its niche. always was always will be.
yeah but Ashes is not designed to be a PvP only game, it quite literally requires massive buy in by PvE players to function, and PvP only players are a tiny minority I doubt you could populate more than a single server with PvP only players. And your game can only be so "Niche" when you are going to end up spending 80 million dollars on it by the time it releases.
@@Sevaria if mortal online is still surviving with less than 1000 players world wide, im confident ashes will be fine. as a side note, I dont plan on maining pvp in the game, im a builder/crafter most of the time in sandboxes. but it is PART of the world, part of the risk reward, part of the experience. like i said, if you dont like it, dont play it. dont ruin a project that so many people like me have been looking for by changing the way it works BEFORE WE EVEN PLAY IT. the more people that are hyped about this, the more i worry. It seems, like every other game that blows up, the people who show up to join the hype train are the same ones who will try to change the game to cater to them. dont board the train, just to want it to be something its not. they know what they want for the game,and the ones who backed it from the start know what they want for the game and it has been designed TOGETHER with that community. a new influx of hype train people who arent even gonna play the game in the first place for more than a month are NOT the people youu want to cater to. look at every other fucking mmo. every other one. the state of the genre. if i need to say more, than this conversation is with a wall. i recommend setting a few days aside to deep dive into the history of game development over the past decade to see just how fucked everything is, largely due to things like this. i gurantee new world would have performed better if they didnt have an identity crisis for what the game IS ALL THROUGH ITS DEVELOPMENT, and even RIGHT BEFORE its betas. and now they have spent since its release to get it to a playable state. thats not how it should be. you can ddebate this, but as asmon always says, points on a graph make a line, lines point in a direction. when you have a lot of lines pointing the same way, well thats not a coincidence. hindsight is 2020. the past has a million lessons to teach, but everyone is ignorant, caught up in their idea of a good time, without ever participating in it, or even trying whats there. they just want to take their concept of fun and fuse it into what they are hyped about, regardless of what it was in the first place.
games are art, art is made with passion, made with soul. without it, its garbage. corporatization bleeds passion. and video games have gone corporate. so when a project like this comes along, yeah, the people who really care, REALLY dont want to see it ruined by a bunch of people who literally dont know what they are talking about, nor do they have the decades of time involved in the medium, or even what the game development process is like. tldr, changing things late, changes the entire project and causes large large LARGE amounts of work, to go down the drain.
let them work on the project they designed and have been working on. they know what they are doing, and they know what the project needs to succeed at what it is, more so than any other mmo team to date.
@@jeroxis9975 If your metric for a living game is that low, i've got hundred of shitty grinding KMMOs to show you. They have invested over 40 million dollars into Ashes, and that number likely to double by launch; they cannot survive with a 1000 players. To keep the game alive they need to be making money from it, which means having a much larger player base than just "surviving" .
@@Sevaria let be clear, i am not a fan of mortal online by any regards. that shit is beyond repair. the tutorial island is unfinished still lmao. merely drawing a comparison; if that shit show of a game can still pull it off, ashes of creation will be a ok. ashes is more complete of a project as it stands, then mortal online 2 will be in a decade.
Asmon is still butthurt that we corpse camped him in eastern plaguelands on classic vanilla faerlina. He called his guild, and even asked for swifty to send his guild to back him up. we still stomped him. So hard that he quit the server. Now we have a 99% horde server(effectively pve w. no alliance), but we still enjoyed the process of fighting for server dominance. Only low test pussies don't like competition
Think asmon is a bit tunnel visioned on open world PVP being bad because he streams his POV to thousands of people who will then come ruin his experience, yes I can imagine that feels like harassment, but this is not the experience of the other 99.9% of people playing the MMO.
As a person who can only play for 2/3 hours every other day, if it happens that I get killed twice in a row by some griefer and end up wasting all the time I was able to play I would quit on the spot.
And you can bet there are many more people who feel the same.
@@RaddonOkay but are you getting griefed because you get killed twice? That's not exactly what I would call being griefed. Also imo its up to the game to create systems that help to prevent griefing, or have active GM's that actually ban people that grief in certain ways the game doesn't allow.
@@NufflasTo me if people kill me twice for the simple reason they can, and not because I am somehow competing with them for an objective yes that is griefing, and if my gaming sessions get regularly wasted because of that I will quit.
I am not against pvp, some of my most pkayed games are things like pubg and LOL. But if a game fails to protect me as a casual from people who grind 100 hours a week then of course I will not pkay, I would be stupid if I did
@@Raddon The nature of MMO's will always be that people who play more have the advantage. Again I think its up to the game to offer alternative things to do, perhaps if you get killed twice doing a certain thing you can move somewhere safe instead or do something else.
I think a good work around for pve players in a pvp game would be to have roles these people could play during a battle/war that would make them unable to participate in combat. eg Banner men that provided some sort of buff to combatants like damage reduction, move speed etc, Medics that could heal grievous wounds or revive players, Spy's to track enemy movement or disrupt supply lines, a battefield commander that issued orders to your guild/company, I'm sure there is many more options to provide a meaningful gameplay experience to players that aren't interested in open world pvp combat.
Read this and immediately thought of Nigel Thornberry 😂. Fingers crossed this game turns out awesome!
famously voiced by gary oldman
I have stinky fingers
A PvE server could still function if they add factions of Bandit/Pirate/Evil NPC enemies as an opposing hostile nations/cities.
There would still be danger with caravan transports and at sea, but players would feel better losing to, and banding together against, a common foe.
They could then add dynamic events like Guild wars 2, where you could choose to defend a public city or a Caravan transports from Bandit raids.
I'd like to see an economy spring up over the transportation of goods. Like if your guild doesn't want to deal with the hastles of transporting goods through pvp areas, then fine, just pay a group that specializes in doing just that.
Wishful thinking, maybe, but it would be pretty cool.
I think it’s actually very likely that will happen. Caravans are built to facilitate this. There are even talks of escrow/insurance systems to help these transportation groups operate. It basically allows for player economies to fund and motivate world PvP.
Yeah, boats trains and wagons is what an mmo needs. Markets need to be sort of fragmented, most games with centralized markets end up way too liquid.
Pretty much what they're aiming for in design methinks, go look up Eve Online for this type of detail.
Even in L2 we had mercanry-type guilds that would join alliances for a price, players that would roam and hunt PKers etc.
I think too many people are looking at this game like its the next WoW or FFXIV....
@@baronbob962 Shame that connected FPS thing apparently didn't quite work out. The idea sounded really cool.
If you buy a pvp only game and get attacked in it how is that non consensual, you went in knowing what it was from the get.
This whole "non consensual" thing is so stupid. It's like saying if I die in zelda I have just wasted my time because an NPC did somthing I didn't concent to.