Second Avenue Subway - Poor Design?
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- Phase 2 of the Second Avenue Subway was recently announced to be starting soon, and in this video, I talk about some of the issues I, and a couple of other Transit Enthusiasts have with the project.
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The problem with all of this is that the United States has always treated public transportation as a sort of handout for those who do not own automobiles, rather than an essential service like gas, water and electricity. And this mentality has trickled down to the states and cities. There are very few plans that prioritize public transportation in a meaningful way.
That's what I like about NYC. At least here, there is some sort of attempt to use Public Transportation, to get people out of their cars. Unfortunately, not many will do so in NYC, especially with all of the MTA crew shortages, and a lot of the problems we've been seeing in the system the past couple of weeks.
@@MysticTransit NYC on a global scale is actually very crappy transit in USA is THAT BAD
I know that Rochester , NY attempted a mini transit system similar to NYC but it did not fall through.
I know that Cincinnati Ohio began building a subway system but did not complete it when the money ran out in the Great Depression. Postwar, Ohio DOT could not resist in seizing the right-of-way, ripping out everything Cinc built, and building six and eight lane freeways.
@@edwardmiessner6502 The unused tunnel system is still there.
I still don't know why the MTA hasn't invested in a Bronx-Queens train connector. A lot of people would benefit a lot from a subway like that. The only way for people from the Bronx or Queens to get to the other borough is driving or having to go into downtown Manhattan to then transfer to a train to goes to that borough. A train that skips Manhattan.
there are old tracks that could connect and build 8 stations between the bronx, brooklyn and queens. That would be a game changer
Yes
I agree with your line of thought, but where are you going run this outer boro line? The Hells Gate Bridge only has 3 tracks, and 1 of them is used by CSX, and Canadian Pacific. The other two tracks will be used by the New Haven Line, and Amtrak in the future. You would have to build a new bridge or tunnel across the Long Island Sound in order for such a service to work.
@@kenw7287 There are currently 3 tracks but Hell Gate has a 4 track right of way.
We could really use a good connection with BX and QNS in northeast NYC too. I live in College Point and can see the Bronx across the water from my front yard but if I want to get there on public transit it's a least an hour and a half. I wish we could AT LEAST get a ferry stop or a pedestrian/cycling path across the Whitestone and Throgs Neck bridges.
Cost overruns is an issue and the fact that the entire route was paid for 2 or 3 times a half century ago with the funding getting “diverted” to other projects each time.
It's called corruption.
I have to give you a major salute. I work for MTA. Your dedication on bringing this type of information to the people is dope. Now as for somebody who supports the 2nd avenue line on a technical level. I wish they would have done better with implementing their network communication. Mobile support and network support is the worst. I have clients who keep picking out of this area, due to simple stuff like being able to make a mobile phone call or being able to use a basic computer due to the network infrastructure. I’m hoping once they move fwd with the expansion, that side of 2nd avenue will be done correctly. Peace champ new sub keep it going.
The second avenue subway should really have platform screen doors as well.
The original proposal was a six-track behemoth with express AND super-express service and numerous branches that connected to Brooklyn and lower Manhattan. This is a limited-capacity two-track subway without sidings at stations, so express service will be impossible. There is more than enough demand for express service (especially considering many people will be traveling to lower Manhattan and won't want to make so many stops).
I think a spur to Queens from the upper east side, one up to the Bronx along 3rd Ave, and one from Alphabet City to Red Hook and down along Liberty Ave to JFK. I think the BIGGEST flaw is building it as a 2 track local one line. Not having an express option will only relieve the 6 train but minimal impact on the 4 & 5.
Yeah that too. Even though the already existing tunnels on 2nd Ave have 3 tracks, the MTA is planning on eliminating that and using that space for island platforms which I think is stupid. There could be a Q express option from 125th to 96th to cut off some time which I think would be beneficial
Also, with the 3 Tracks, some trains would be able to Short Turn at 96 St.
Hehe RER
@@coolboss999 Hi qua
@@MrMam-yo7qp Who tf are h
The 2-track configuration is another grumble of mine. The longer the extension gets, the harder it's going to be to deal with emergencies, broken down trains, signal issues, etc., with just two tracks. BART in SF is a great example of this, when something goes wrong, the reroute options are few and far between literally.
Same with DC
not a issue since the subway has stops with has multiple connections to the 456 line
My solutions for transit desserts and an alternative to subway extensions in outer boroughs (aside from Astoria extension into LaGuardia airport) You can build and improve on the express bus system by introducing off peak fares and creating park and ride lots in certain areas. In some cases express fares are relative to bridge/tunnel tolls anyway it’s better than paying an ADDITIONAL congestion price fee. Also utilize commuter rail in city limits especially since ridership isn’t were it once was city residents can help fill up certain empty seats!
🙄😂😂😂😂 yeah ok! 👌 park and ride lots where? More busses...how? U must not live here lol
The problem is express buses get stuck in traffic. 23rd St is the worst it's where they all converge.
@@monica012077 A good SHORT TERM solution would be to add more bus ways/lanes on streets and add H.O.V on highways and have it all STRICTLY ENFORCED!
@@mrgooglethegreat i
@@jamallhayden2512 again....u cant do that here in New York City. There is no more room period. Smh. U gotta visit before u provide ideas for solutions 🙄
Great video and I totally agree with you on the cost of the phase alone being ridiculous and the fact that we have to say it’s New York so it’s automatically more expensive is pretty stupid. Also the new station designs don’t need to be as intricate as they should be easy to maintain. Only thing I don’t particularly agree with is the further extension of the LIRR, I feel as though unless you find a way to also extend the MNR and the PATH to go that far then you’re kind of only providing a solution for a 1/3 of the metro area residents and those in the city comfortable enough to hop on the LIRR. I feel like this was always really over complicated for no reason. They should’ve just designed the entire second Avenue subway to be conducive for IRT trains and split either the 4 or 5, then just brought it all back together at spring or canal and have it run express as normal until city hall. Then 2nd Ave subway riders have access to both the Bronx and Brooklyn, but what do I know 🤷🏽♂️😂
The way the stations are designed is way too complex, and they really should've been dialed back. I know a lot of people think it's a weird idea to have the LIRR extended to provide Rail access on the East Side, but I think it would be a good idea, should the MTA actually try and make it a supplemental/comparable service to the Subway, instead of some poorly priced, long distance, always delayed commuter rail system.
@@MysticTransit imagine how much consulting fee this will go to firms with ties and kickbacks to politicians
Having stations that all look the same has nothing to do with cost, and extending the LIRR would be more expensive. 80% of the cost of Phase 2 is the underpinning of the Lexington Av subway and the elevated Metro-North Harlem station at 125 St, along with all the buildings on both sides of the street. Other costs include, whether or not stations are deep (due to station entrances and other shafts needed near the surface) include utility relocation, which involves undoing and reorganizing the spaghetti of gas, sewer, electrical, steam and water lines in the way of construction. Inflation in the cost of materials and a shortage of skilled labor add to the cost. MTA does bear some blame because of "feather-bedding," that is, hiring more people than are required to get work done.
Deep tunnels are necessary because of the many high rise buildings along the route. Building shallow would cause instability to those buildings.
Most old nyc subways were cut and cover, even when tall buildings existed. The biggest issue is drivers and merchants complaining about road closures.
While I definitely agree that there would be commuter rail into downtown (probably into Brooklyn via downtown too), but an expansion of the LIRR is a terrible idea. It would mean multiple transfers for those people, and getting to NJ would become impossible by fast regional operations. The LIRR needs to go from GC back to Penn through a new tunnel, taking MetroNorth with it (trains would stop st both GC and Penn, with express trains using the old tracks). The second avenue subway just meeds to be cheaper, and probably terminate in Brooklyn or Staten Island, not just downtown.
This design is State Of The Art at this time. All the subway stations in Los. Angeles, the Bay Area, Washington and Atlanta are built like this. We can't go back to the past.
We looked at this in one of my classes and transit professionals said the cost was due to labour, unions etc. not design. But your design points makes sense. I like the design tho
I get that is part of the reason why but when they try their darnest to add as many unnecessary aspects in the overall design of these new stations it just runs up the costs.
If you know labor unions are gonna scratch every penny from the construction, make as minimal as possible
Yes, union contracts mandate extra workers to stand around and watch other workers operate the tunnel boring machines. This does not happen in other cities which are able to get the job done with far fewer workers, ie more efficiently.
This is complete bullshit, Paris has far stronger unions and gets projects done far cheaper.
In my opinion, Phase 1/2 should have been done in 1 Phase and Phase 3/4 as another phase
I think so as well, however, that price would have been obnoxiously high.
@@MysticTransit If phase 1 and 2 were built as one phase, the price would have been lower, as prices are going up over time. But yeah it would have been hard for them to get together that much funding at once, which is why the did the phases.
Exactly, that's what I was trying to say. Yes, the portion of Phase 2 would've probably costed less, however, the overall price might've been something like $10 Billion.
Blame Sheldon Silver. He is the number one reason why SAS is being built like this. Elections count.
Theoretical Annoucement for the Lexington Avenue Line (4) train: “This is… 125th Street. Transfer is available to the (5), (6), and (Q) trains. Connection is available to Metro North.”
Jokes aside, I definitely agree with you.
Hm, I was thinking more of a "This is 125 St. Transfer is available to the (6), and (Q) Trains. Transfer is available to the M60 Select Bus Service, to LaGuardia Airport. Connection is available to Metro North."
I'd love to hear that all voiced by Jessica (OG Lexington Ave Line Announcer).
Also, from what I've noticed, the 4/5 Trains don't mention each other until the last transfer point, which would be Franklin Av and 149 St - Grand Concourse. And, the M60... that's been there for the longest.
Glad that you agree with me though.
@@MysticTransit I actually looked it up and it said (5) and (6) trains in the annoucement. However, I didn’t put “M60 SBS to LaGuardia Airport” lol
Wow, I haven't been on the 4/5 in a while so I don't remember. Interesting.
@@MysticTransit Unfortunately it appears that all of the Bloomberg Radio folks have left. So Velina Mitchell will be the voice from now on.
Aw, that’s sad
I'd definitely like to see your thoughts on what could be improved with the LIRR. I think one of the first things is fixing the schedules. If you look at some branches, the trains seem to come at random times rather than being spaced at even intervals. It makes coordination with the suburban bus systems very difficult
I've actually already made the video. Here it is: czcams.com/video/iBXepwzcaoA/video.html
It’s why suburban bus ridership is low as a result it’s not effective
I think they need more escalators in 90% of stations it gets rough having to walk many steps
I do think there is a benefit to extending the second Ave subway, however the idea that it is the only solution to taking pressure off the 4, 5, 6 seems untrue. If signaling were improved and Rolling stock/ staffing available, I think it would be more affordable to increase frequency of trains on Lexington line. I’ve been to other cities abroad where you would see a train departing at the same time a train was arriving in a station (with boarding time I think this leads to way more than 30 trains per hour). If we invest like that, we could make journeys less crowded on existing lines and, as you said, invest in increasing access to areas that are transit deserts… perhaps a Bronx/queens line would be a good start.
I also think traffic would improve if crosstown lines like the L extended under the Hudson to areas of New Jersey that are either walkable neighborhoods or attach to huge park and ride lots (not ideal but it’s NJ and they love that kind of thing).
The only way they would be able to improve the frequency on the Lexington Avenue line is with CBTC, and with the current R62/A units in service on the (3) (6), that can’t really happen rn. Also, being that the Lexington Avenue Line was the first Subway Line constructed for NYC back in 1904, the MTA would have to make substantial changes in order for CBTC to actually be effective.
It would probably be more affordable to build the Second Avenue Subway, however, they need to get the costs down on that project first. I do understand what you are talking about with improving the frequency on Lex, but that’s a huge project in itself. Second Ave should be constructed first, so people aren’t too effected when that construction starts.
@@MysticTransit interesting take! It’s hard for me to not be skeptical that politicians are more motivated to build a brand new line versus improving service on an old line. One is more glamorous than the other for sure.
In any case, all of the above need to happen and then some and I’m excited to see how things develop with more funding available.
The problem with extending the subway to NJ is that digging underneath the Palisades would be extremely challenging and expensive. Especially if you want to extend the L or 7 to Secaucus Junction.
@@kenw7287 and it’s redundant as a new NJ tunnel with infill stations in union city for NJT is more than enough
If it were up to me, the T train would continue along 125th street and serve as a connector between all the other 125th street stations. If anything it would be really helpful for 1 train riders who would have an easier connection to the A or other lines with express service over there, since the 1 doesnt have it. The Q would follow in the footsteps of the old 3rd avenue el route and go into the bronx to add more service options over there
Gotta agree that the stations are too deep. Walking up & out of 96th street is kind of a hike so I can't imagine having to do it at 86th or 72nd if the escalators broke. Also with you on the excess expense of the mezannines, esp. since the islands are wide enough to walk along comfortably
I was thinking the same thing as far as extending the line across 125th St to connect to the #1 Train at Broadway. That would cut a lot of travel time in half going Crosstown! As you mentioned, the Station stops should be Lenox Ave connecting to the 2 and 3 trains, St. Nicholas Ave to connect to the A, B, C, and D trains, and finally Broadway. It's also interesting because they're building tail tracks that will extend all the way to Lenox Ave. These tracks will be used as storage tracks. If they were smart I would build the Lenox Ave station and somehow lump it in on this Phase 2 construction. In addition, I agree with the tail tracks on 2nd Ave extending into the Bronx on to 3rd Ave building a new line to serve Central Bronx, an area that desperately needs Subway service. As an alternative, they can utilize the local tracks on the Metro North and use their Melrose and Tremont Platforms. Most of the Metro North trains run express up to the Fordham station anyway from 125th St. I honestly don't think a lot of people uses the Metro North at these stations anyhow, so it would make sense. This will also cut down on funding to drill a new underground tunnel because they can utilize those local tracks. Afterwards, the new line can merge with the D Train at 205th St station and extend both lines across either Gun Hill Rd or Burke Ave into Co-Op City to connect with Bay Plaza and the new New Haven Line Metro North Station they're about to build. This will be perfect, make a big transit hub in Co-Op City for all of it (Subway, Bus, Metro North)! Extend the 6 Train there too 1 extra stop from Pelham Bay Park to Co-Op City as well since it's extremely close!!
If I’m being completely honest I think the MTA should have put the money from SAS into a new line in queens somewhere with barley any service what do ever but they can do is send the T or Q into queens and send the other to 125th for the crosstown service
I agree with sending the (Q) to 125, and the (T) into Queens, however, I don't agree with just putting the money to a new line in Queens. I think the 125 St extension is still very important, and needs to be completed, however, anything after that, no.
In Queens, I think it would be good to have a branch line, at 72 St. The (T) would run into Queens via the (F), and split off around 63 Dr, to run along a refurbished Rockaway Beach Branch to possibly Rockaway Park.
Nice, I hope it gets Extended to The Bronx like it was Originally Planned to.
It The 1929 & 1939 Plans it was planned to go all the way up to Throggs Neck in The East Bronx.
In The MTA's 1968 Program For Action it was Planned to take over The Now "New Haven" Metro North Line in The Bronx to replace The 3rd Avenue EL, & another Part of The 2nd Avenue Subway Replacing (Most of) The Pelham & Dyre Avenue Lines.
I'm not a big fan of sending it down Pelham or Dyre. I also feel like, while Throggs Neck doesn't really have great bus service (I've spent 30 Mins waiting for a 42 Bus before), the population in that area doesn't justify a full Subway Line. Instead, better bus service to connect people with the (6) at Westchester Sq, or the (2/5) at West Farms would be a better option.
I would love to see it just run into the Bronx, make stops at 3 Av - 138 St, 143 St, and then # Av - 149 St, and continue to run up 3 Avenue until about Fordham. There, the line could split in two, with one branch continuing to run North, and another running East towards Pelham Bay/Co-Op City.
Another choice would be to add more stops in the Bronx to the Metro-North's Harlem Line/New Haven Line, and have some Electric Trains run "local" services, to provide an extra rail link for those around 3 Av. As I mentioned in the video, if this is done, I would like to see a fare similar to the Subway System, to make it more attractive for riders.
@@MysticTransit I agree with running it up through 3rd Avenue in The Bronx, at least up to 149th Street as it's one of the busiest Stations in The Bronx.
And yeah, that Pelham replacement thing was a weird idea.
@@MysticTransit since the SAS is new I feel like the r46s don't match with it.Having a NTT train will make the route faster.
@@MysticTransit "The population in that area doesn't justify a full Subway Line" Well it could have if the NIMBYs didn't shut down the upzoning proposal 😔
Do you think that mezzanine level could be turned into a second platform? It seems like it could be used in a double decker style like the 7th Ave/53rd Street station with the B/D/E trains.
Most likely, with the actual platform level being the new express I’d assume
The wide lines I feel like are necessary for safety. I can’t tell you how many times I was walking down a narrow platform in lower Manhattan and worrying I was going to fall off
The MTA has constantly handicapped the system and had short sighted vision. 72nd st was supposed to be three tracks. This would have allowed the T & Q to stop pull in at the same time and unload. When they pull into the same track any delay would cause one to wait. A third track would have also helped with turn backs. 125st was also supposed to be three tracks but was reduced to two. They are removing all the capacity boost because of their outrageous costs.
This maybe crazy but I still believe in cut and cover. Dig up the street a few blocks at at time put the station or tunnel below the road and cover it back up. Not only would this mean we wouldn’t need tunnel boring machines but they would not need as many expensive elevators and escalators.
The second ave subway is poorly designed because of short sighted thinking and absolutely outrageous costs. If we ever see phase 3 of the SAS it will probably end up being a partial failure because of all the handicapping happening now.
@@TheRailLeaguer No I am against full length mezzanines and the deep level stations. I am saying that the MTA has stripped the project of all the critical infrastructure to build an expensive inadequate system. The simpler stations that the BMT / IRT built were better.
Extend Second Avenue line towards Lenox Avenue & Broadway 125th Street. The pattern js this pattern Q train riders are just simply going to get out at Times Square 42nd Street in order to take 1,2 & 3 trains up the west side line via 96th Street. My mom used to do this route from 42nd to 72nd Street then transfer to m72 towards Mary Manning nursing home. One thing is clear 2nd Avenue stations look better then 110th Street Cathedral Parkway 1 train. I do see this arriving in a train simulator like the Harlem Line made by Dovetail Games
Who knows, if SAS is quicker, or there’s something wrong with the IRT Seventh Ave Line, more riders might choose the (Q).
I agree with you on the CrossTown line and an extension to the Bronx as well.
I think it should extend west after 125th street as well and if there were to be a GO/service change then it should connect to the IND 8th Avenue line tracks
I'f the 4 stop (3 underground) San Francisco central subway costs only $1.58 billion and is 0.2 miles longer, New York's shouldn't be much more expensive.
I fully agree... but corruption.
@@MysticTransit well as an elevated it would be much harder to mess that up especially with 3D printing
Not a real good comparison. While I do think the cost is ridiculous, some of it can be justified just because of land valuation and mitigation of urban disruption. The “T’ line in San Francisco is at grade for a bit before going underground through SOMA, Chinatown and a terminus @ North Beach… not quite as dense with business’ and residents as the Upper Eastside for the “Q” and “T” in NYC. The economic impact is much more significant in NYC and therefore will affect the total project cost. Not ideal but that’s what it is.
More vids like this!
I definitely plan on making more!
I really like the idea of extending the LIRR to lower Manhattan but some passengers pay a premium to travel out to places such as Babylon so I would want to see them guaranteed a seat for the majority of trips as part of any plan.
great channel, great presentation quality
Glad that you think so!
At 5:13 I think the Q should go from lex 125th (4,5,6) to Lenox 135th (2,3) then to 145th Saint Nick (A,B,C,D) at its last stop. There’s plenty of busses doing a crosstown 125th St. A service from East Harlem going north west to regular Harlem would be a great improvement.
The main reason for sending the (Q) Crosstown on 125, is to relieve congestion from the streets above. 125 is overcrowded, and buses take way too long to get crosstown.
Also, making the (Q) go northwest in Harlem, would either cost way too much because of the deep boring that would need to happen, or cause a whole bunch of residents to be misplaced, and major disruptions to the streets above, along with the line having a lot of turns slowing it down.
Why not all the way to Broadway to interchange with the 1 line?
Damn right poor design lmao. I'm not much if a fan of the 2and Avenue Subway because it doesnt replicate the IND's original design, and even today's modern designs are literally just pictures splattered onto a wall.
LIRR - to Manhattan downtown, seems like an interesting options. Generally speaking, it will turn LIRR and Subway into "one farm" and blur the boundary between Subway and Commuter Rail - like in Tokyo. If Brooklyn-Queens Express will consider heavy rail option - it will support this trend.
1:53 the platform is wide, but space between staircase and edge of platform - seems as usual. As everywhere. Not so narrow as on Avenue M in Brooklyn, but like like everywhere
Pretty well done video in my opinion. I do agree that Phases 3 and 4 should be eliminated, unless some huge development in the forms of offices and possible transit oriented development springs up along the portion of 2nd Ave below 63rd Street. LIRR Service south of GCT would be cool, but might be more expensive than 2nd Avenue as a whole given that commuter rail stations need to be bigger, and that station is already 140 feet below ground. The better option would be to send both the N and Q up 2nd Avenue and across 125th Street to de-interline Broadway, and have the R/W go up to Astoria. I'd like to see a video covering de-interlining in the future given that not a lot of videos talk about it, and it has a pretty negative stigma surrounding it right now.
@AzAzGodYard access is the issue here, so what I propose is adding crossovers between the express and local tracks south of 36th Street/4th Ave. The B and N would swap such that the N goes express to Brighton Beach via Brighton Express and that the B goes express on 4th Avenue via Sea Beach to Coney Island. The R would go to Coney Island via West End, while the D would take over service south of 36th Street to Bay Ridge. This allows the R to use Coney Island Yard.
Very interesting idea for the SAS. If the MTA finally moves away from these "Grand" station designs, I feel like the LIRR option could be a bit cheaper.
I'm not a big fan of de-interlining myself (For instance, I don't like the (2/5) de-interlining proposals), however, I do know of some places in the system that NEED it. I might make a video on it in the future, I'll add it to my list, but no guarantees on it. Ima need to look into it a bit further.
@@MysticTransit I feel that if de-interlining is done properly, it could work really well. There are some places where full de-interlining is needed, but I’ve only recommended partially de-interlining in most cases.
I’m definitely gonna have to look into it more before actually making a video on De-Interlining.
@@MysticTransit Great to hear!
They would have never been in the situation if they never demolished the 3rd Avenue El.
wat do you think of ye proposed massive t-rex regional commuter rail inter-connection network
when is the next pazes of the t line supposed to open.
This makes me wonder what were they doing for the past 4 1/2 years after this first leg was completed?
Absolutely nothing with this project. We didn’t get the funding until late last year.
Buying lots of luxurious shit while adding to the debt of the Second Avenue Subway.
What luxurious things have the MTA purchased before completing the Second Avenue Subway? I've seen them improve the system with the money they do have.
Adding Cell service to all stations (Bar Pelham Pkwy (5)), CBTC on QBL and the (7), and the introduction of the R211's. These are all great things, that will improve the subway system, arguably more than SAS. At least we are getting the funding now, and are able to get started on the project.
That's the problem. When you stop and restart projects like this, you don't benefit from economies of scale. It's incredibly unwise to do that.
@@benw3864 this is done by the federal government on purpose so Republicans can say, "See!? Public Transportation in the USA is just not cost effective. Everybody should be forced to drive cars!" 😡
Cool video......more like this would be welcome!
Glad to know that you would like to see more of these videos in the future.
if that LIRR extension does happen, it should go west on Madison Avenue since Park Avenue south of 42nd is the 4 5 and 6, and could possibly disrupt them if it goes on Park Avenue
I wasn't thinking Madison or Park, that wouldn't help the far East Side at all. It should run down either 2 or 3 Avenue.
Yeah, it's not a highly popular proposal. Mainly because some think it would cost more, being that the LIRR is commuter rail, and the MTA has its obsession with "Grand" stations. I really do hope that an LIRR extension is considered in the future, as I feel like it could spark some type of Commuter Rail Upgrade for the city, converting our current commuter rail system into something similar to Crossrail, or an S-Bahn system.
I feel the R train should go to Staten island . Owls head park in Brooklyn has a small tunnel underneath the surface. The project was never finished i believe because of the 1929 Stock market crash. There was some talks of the Northshore line on Staten island to be reactivated with transit.
I saw your other video about the Bronx on the d train the co-op City on the map everything looks close but in reality when you have to build it it's miles and miles of track into populated a residential and highway neighborhoods because this is not a hundred years ago that when there was empty land if someone would have to build a track and go into your apartment building what would you say
It's about 2-3 Miles or so from Norwood to Co-Op City, about the same length of the Second Avenue Subway, from 72 to 125 St.
SAS was built through a much more populated area than this would. It can happen.
@@MysticTransit tru highway and resident streets and who will pay for it
@@MysticTransit it takes a year just to build an elevator how long do u think this would take? Look how long the second ave project took 20 years.
@@MysticTransit what about Riverdale they have no train either . This why we have buses
@@MysticTransit three to four miles that's roughly 80 blocks of residential of highway of streets that are occupied and you want to build a structure
How much would the cost per rider be?
Why do they still build such narrow platforms?
I’d like to see the 7 extended to 14th St to connect with the L with a 9th ave L station & 7 stops along 10th Ave at 23rd & 14th.
i think half the cost is just for the mezzianines
Most Likely it is.
@@MysticTransit new stations need to exclude mezzanines they just get taken over by the homeless anyway
these stations look awful, I would prefer the design of the brutalist modern stations like 21 St- Queens Bridge or the end of the Archer Ave line. These stations just look cheaply done, especially with that white tile. If anything could they have done it like Bowling Green and given it some color?
I'm not a big fan of these stations designs either. I wish they could've taken some designs from other parts of the system, and maybe 'Remixed' them.
I definitely agree I think the MTA is overdoing it with this train line but then again I think it's also partly due to the neighborhood it serve that second avenue line is money money once you go upstairs below 96th Street so they going to want something that looks Grand & different than the other stations. Plus the lady you caught at the 6:02 mark 😍🔥
So 106th north should have no problem 4-tracking, no?
Definitely the 2nd Avenue Tunnel should run down to Lower Manhattan and further into Brooklyn if possible, and up to 125th Street at Broadway (Q Train) with a branch up to Wakefield in the Bronx (T Train), where a light rail or skytrain pre-metro can be built by Westchester County out to White Plains.
Extending the LIRR? Unless the Metro North is extended, bad idea. But instead of running the length of the island just have it make a right turn where the existing LIRR tunnel runs and connect into additional NJT tracks under Penn Station.
It would be a Gi-Normous Labor Challenge in the USA, but, . . .
The UK has places where transit and commuter rail run on the very same rails, but the state owns all in that case.
Does MTA own the Hell Gate segment? or Amway?
Construction companies used for public projects should be publicly owned so they don’t need to make profit for shareholders. Workers would get paid fairly and you cut out the middleman that makes it so expensive. Government always wastes money with middle men cuz they donate to their campaigns to get contracts
It was nice to see the R32s running through there today
I want subway stations at JFK and LaGuardia! Not that "air train" thing. But actual subway stations!
106th north to 149th Street needs to be 4 tracks. Then we can fix 72nd-96th when the time comes…
The city also has a chronic problem of not reigning in unions too. Union workers negotiating excessive perks are why the MTA's construction, maintenance, and operating costs are so ridiculously high. The city is known for its unions driving prices and taxes up and its excessive bureaucracy to the point where the city government has just become a giant state jobs program. It's pretty ridiculous.
The design is an issue as you mentioned, but also we have no transit expertise in this country, and transit organizations have no in house expertise meaning everything is contracted out. That's what happens when you don't build often enough. We also restrict who can even apply for the contracts we have. The city also didn't keep track of underground utilities correctly meaning we had to use TBMs which was expensive. We also divide everything into multiple phases where we stop and restart construction which reduces economies of scale.
Also public will comes into the picture too. In the US we arguably give citizens too much power to block projects or demand changes to the point where transit organizations sometimes plan projects already assuming people will complain. Also the million traffic/environmental/feasibility studies we have to do to get things through is insane.
One thing I don't get about the SAS project in general is that, while the signals are CBTC-equipped, the line doesn't have CBTC from opening. If the MTA is going in that direction with signaling, would've made more sense to just have the line fully equipped with and running CBTC from the beginning, but now when it comes time to it they'll have to go back in to install the rest of the equipment for it for both phases (if not all, depends on how they'll build phases 3 and 4)
I think the reason for not running it with CBTC, is because the system just doesn't have enough rolling stock for that. The non-CBTC equipped R46/R68s are currently running on the (N/Q/W), and those are the only lines that run up to 96 St.
CBTC will probably be activated on the line when all of the R211s come in, but not right now, as the only CBTC-Equipped Rolling Stock (R143/R160/R179), are currently running on other lines, and they can't be switched, to avoid the R46s being worked to death, and because the J/Z don't have replacement units.
What mystic said. There would be very little benefit to using CBTC on a two track line that is not interlined with anything else and has tracks/switches that are in great condition (I hardly count the 3 or 4 N/W trains, since those are connecting to the broadway line in the same place that the Q train does). It is better to prioritize the limited stock of CBTC trains that they have on other lines.
I hope the Phase II stations don't look identical to the Phase I stations.
I heard that stay finish phase 3 there gonna bringing the (T) train in service
It's rumored to be that way, however, that is an extremely long way off, and with the current way they've planned out the Second Avenue Subway, especially those downtown sections, it wouldn't be a very good project.
At least the r46 got to go where it was meant to go
Well i would like to if the this 2 second Avenue would Connect to the bronx which the original 3rd Avenue Line Once stood going to end up in Gun Hill Rd or Going further gun hill Rd and end up at the Bay plaza in the Bronx NY
The deep stations are going no where. No more cut and cover. It’s far too disruptive to the neighborhood and it’s exactly why Astoria shoots down the extension to LGA as soon as it falls from the MTAs lips.
Tunnel boring is the least intrusive but the building that are in place needs their foundations as undisturbed as possible. Not to mention, NYC doesn’t know where all of its pipes and cables run so deeper is safer. When transit finds them it just creates massive delays and additional costs.
The LIRR down the east side shouldn’t be treated as a subway service as their way of fare collection using conductors is highly inefficient for the frequency of stops and the amount of people. It’s also seen as a way to get in and out of the city and into LI quickly.
Transit has no choice but to do it as expensive as possible as any attempt to cut costs gets some push back. Everyone needs to agree or we get no extension. Plain and simple.
I wood love to watch yore lirr video
Great to know!
Although I believe the 2nd avenue subway needs some tweaking I believe the LIRR idea is a bad one...LiRR trains run no where near as much as subway trains with the exception of maybe 3 hours a day...adding those trains all day will eventually also be an expensive endeavor which really wouldn't help the city itself but be geared more toward the suburbs of long Island
Laughing in Denver
They should just make a small island platform with an elevator to the street and maybe stairs
@@TheRailLeaguer ok
Here me out on this, They should make a LIRR line from Jamaica, go across a bridge, and go into 125st we’re there could be a level on top of the Q and follow the Q until 72, we’re it goes on 2nd Ave all the way to WTC. And the part from 125 all the way WTC should be metro card.
That would cost wayyyy too much money, and it would over-congest the 125 St Station.
Yeah maybe.
cool video and do a video cbtc at lefferts blvd and do a station tour of lefferts blvd on the a line
There's no CBTC at Lefferts, and I have no plans for a Station Tour there.
@@MysticTransit yes they are putting wires and transponders at lefferts blvd
Well, CBTC won't be activated until the R211's are in service on the (A), and the 8 Avenue Line will be getting it before Lefferts. I still don't plan to make a video on it though.
American urban infrastructures in general and American urban public transportation infrastructures in particular are much less modern and much more dilapidated than those in Europe.
Truth
Look how long it took to get the LIRR to GC. Send it to City Hall, you're dreaming!
I feel like the mta should spend there money on extending the D train to Co-op city
I'm not too sure about that. I feel like that would only reduce capacity along the line.
@@MysticTransit wym by that
@@urbexfloxks1641 basically that would make the (D) train practically useless. Another thing is you can get to Co-op City via the Bx28 pretty easily, just get off at Bedford Park Blvd or Norwood - 205th Street. Spending extra money for practically no change.
My suggestion for more transit to Co-Op City would be to extend the (6) Train, rather than the (D).
An extension to Co-Op for the (D) would cost much more, and limit capacity on the line, plus, I suspect that people in Co-Op City would rather be connected to the East Side, rather than the West Side.
@@MysticTransit Yes the #6 extension is better for the short term. But extending the "D" gives the most benefits. Another problem with a "D" extension is this train already has a lot of mileage when it goes to Coney Island. So I rather see an extended #1 line across Van Cortland Park/Gun Hill Road because of train crews. At this point, the one would be like a Bronx Crosstown shuttle for passengers using other subway lines.
Benefits. It is a shorter line. It is on the far west Bronx making it a true crosstown line
Disadvantage. It is a local.
I know this area very well because I visit family members who live on Mosholu pkwy west.
Although people living on the #4 side think the #1 is miles away, because that's the impression that park and the highway system give you. Actually, the #1 is closer to the #4 than the #4 is to the #2 by a few blocks. And the #2 is closer to the #4 than the #5.
Also interested about this geography. The #1 242nd Is further north than the #4 Woodlawn station. It is number 2 to the #2 241st station.
(I call the #2 the energizer bunny train, because it just keeps on going as if it never ends. That is how long the #2 line in the Bronx. I swear, I seen that #2 passing through north standing in Yonkers)
The #5 is 3rd (sitting around 231st Street #1 train station) and the #6 is 4th not counting the "D"
Why is this important? It is important because anything running east on Gun Hill Road will put you Southeast. So after the #1 trek north to about 238th Street it now turned in Van Cortland Park S into GHR now going southeast. But it is a gradual decline east. But it is very noticeable one you reach Bartow Avenue.
So that's why I call it a crosstown shuttle because of the direction it goes and how people would use it. But we can both agree that very few people will be sticking with it for Manhattan trips. That's not why it should be built though.
Where the CRACK is/are the express track/s ?
the express tracks you get by connection to the 456 line
@@roseforyoubabe Dumb question, what is the 456 line ?
@@benmossad2073 that is the lexington avenue subway line 6 is the local train while the 4& 5 are express trains
They built a 20th century subway in the 21st century with an incredibly expensive budget
It is over built. Mezzanines are very, very expensive. They could have got away with a station box in three locations.
Yeah, the mezzanines they built for this are just wild. It really makes me think about if just some normal Side Platforms, with a small crossover would've just been a better idea.
@@MysticTransit They say they build the Mezzanines for safety. Fire, smoke, Flooding and crowd control. But certain subways get crowded because there is not enough stations or trunks that will allow to balance the traffic.
But the IRT and BMT have been functioning without Mezzanines for decades.
But I can see a case for them for transfer stations like 34th Herald Square, 14th Union Square and Times Square. Not 169th Street on the F line.
Why we can't have the r160 it will be better and I can take the (Q) to the 5 at 125 yes
The (Q) doesn't have R160s anymore because they were transferred to the QBL Lines for CBTC.
Well I don't think I would agree to have an LIRR/MR downtown extension INSTEAD of a Phase 3 or 4 2nd Ave line. Even with all the fancy improvements that make LIRR/MNR into something more like S-Bahn or RER in Paris or all those 'private commuter rail' in Tokyo. Not to mention I think that entails too many and too fundamental changes to not only MTA but the regional transit system, which I know transit fans like, but it's a lot less practical. Everyone has habits and NYC is more used to using the subway for intracity & inner-city travels. And I don't think it's easy to change. Not to mention Lexington Ave lines switch to go under Park Ave somewhere south of GCT, and a potential LIRR extension would probably go directly down Park or turn a little west (where there's a ton of subway lines as well as the PATH line there), I don't see a great possibility of actually swerving tracks east again to go under 2nd Ave or anywhere East of Park Ave in Manhattan, which is where transit service is actually more necessary. As west of Park Ave (which is basically 4th) u have 6,7,8th Ave lines & the broadway lines, but nothing to the East. I guess the only thing is about the 2-track part. I actually don't understand why can't a 4 track express-local line built under the 2nd Ave. Which would also provide more options such as serving those 'transit deserts' especially in outer boroughs. Just like how all other lines currently work.
About brining LIRR to downtown, I think that another project that can be looked at is a connection between Atlantic Terminal & somewhere in downtown, like WTC. It probably is also expensive but I think another connection that runs commuter/regional rail cars between midtown & downtown is also not cheap. And it would have limited benefit as I explained before, another subway line like the phase 3 or 2nd Ave would be a lot more useful. And further more, with some changes to the structure of PANYNJ (which is basically getting rid of stupidity, like combining PATH & AirTrain into one brand & stop running them as separate services it makes 0 sense at this point), and the NWK-EWR PATH extension which is extremely likely, with a flying junction at Jamaica you'll have a connector between JFK & EWR airports, which would have direct connection to downtown Manhattan right under WTC. Also if the LGA air train is really moved forward (which is likely at this point) I think the best way to make the best out of it is to extend further down GCP to Jamaica, which would then make a rail link between all 3 major airports possible (in a T-shaped network). And that is a big plus and a lot more useful than just a 'one stop ride from the airport' type of projects. And of course this would serve the purpose of brining LI commuters to downtown quicker & easier.
Nice try adding NJT Hoboken into the mix
Good ideas
They can do this but they can’t bring back the 9? Wow
The (9) was an unnecessary line. Skip-Stop service does not work in subway systems, hence all of the issues with the (J/Z) Skip-Stop service.
@@MysticTransit but they could have just rerouted it instead of making it skip stop.
Any countries except the US and UK can build this 2nd Ave Subway Phase 2 at USD 1Bn max.... Wellz that's your American style of waste and corruption... How much consulting fee the city will pay to firms with kickback to those politicians?
6.1 BILLION IS A GOOD PRICE FOR NYC.
Actually most of what you said would be a bad idea I think it should be the 7 that gets gets extended to central queens and a railroad cant make stops that close of a distance. We have the M125 SBS coming for a reason so no need for a 125th street crosstown train. The T train can be extended to the bronx and be crosstown for the south bronx ending at a stop with the D train. The D train should be extended from Norwood 205 Street to White Plains Rd line and serve as a crosstown as the Bronx desperately needs crosstown lines, Matter a fact Norwood 205 was not intended to be the terminal and the D train was intended to go much farther up to the White Plains Rd line. However budget problems and Wars caused this plan to be scrapped.
According to everyone else, including operators, and transit enthusiasts, it IS a good idea. I don't think the M125 will be a SBS Service, and 125 St is already too congested. A Subway Line would remove the congestion.
Interlining the D/T is a horrible idea, and would limit capacity on both lines.
@@MysticTransit Oh I see what you mean.
A lifetime advocating and participating teaches one that no one loses elections screwing transit users
5:36
Well the designer for that line happens to be my brother's wife uncle. Many of the designs were not implemented because of the labor cost remember this are union jobs they get paid a lot to do nothing.
East Broadway F train is a poor design
They look very bland and boring, there's probably a thousand corners you can cut without sacrificing the quality
I'd just keep the current phase of the 2nd Avenue as is. Why bother going through the headache of that entire project when two crossborough lines (Bx-Queens or Queens-Brklyn) would be cheaper and more reasonable. Manhattan doesn't need anymore service.
those 3 stations are very plain and boring nothing special to them bc they all look them same just different artwork each one they could have put some more colors like the old stations. The only thing is good is the open space with solid air flow and that is clean.
Who gives a shit you should be grateful it was even built at all. Just sayin
at the 63 street station you can walk to 59 street which has express tracks and when the second avenue phase 2 is complete you can walk to the lexington avenue line at 125 which has express tracks