Is the Fall of Satan really described in the Bible?
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- čas přidán 9. 02. 2020
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"Does the Bible tell us how Satan fell?"
Dr. Peter Gentry answers in Honest Answers | Episode 91
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What many in the comments don't seem to understand is that he's not saying Satan never fell in the first place, he's analyzing the passages that people commonly refer to when discussing his fall. He's doing what many people won't by analyzing the literary structure used and contextualizing the words with the culture and popular beliefs at the time, as well as the rest of the Bible.
well stated. Thank you for that. I get the sense that there is this waking up to the way that we've framed fear for ourselves based on misinformation, mistranslation and outright delusion
@@pixelmouth I am seeing what you are saying. I’m seeing a lot of believers especially the youth questioning a lot of the things that they have simply accepted concerning doctrines and teachings.
Anyone ever talk about Job and Gods testing him using the Devil?
I don’t need him to interrupt anything for me. And by the way , what he is saying is totally right in what he believes, but not what I know to be the truth. Go tell that foolishness to someone else
@@elohel3293
Part of being Woke to the Truth of the Revelation of Yah'shua,... coming from different directions, doctrines, traditions, and points of views to the Realization that...
"...Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." Jeremiah 1619.
Anyone who can say "Robin Hood Men in Tights" without laughing on camera is a true, trained professional...I tip my hat good sir! Also, I really enjoy watching your explanations on Biblical interpretation.
I like when he says “this is one interpretation.” Normally, that is very condescending, but he does not make it sound that way at all.
Agree, but so how Satan fall then ?? If in the garden of Eden he was deceived Eve ? and Jesus saw him falling like a lighting ?
Even more speaking of ugardic texts the son of shachar was the son of the god of the dawn whom I believe is the one called Lucifer. Same story but sounds to be one generation further down. 2nd generation nephilim
Yes, I like the way he explains. Most Bible teachers are so sure that whatever viewpoint they have is the "right" one, but you can tell he really cares about the truth, not indoctrinating or arguing with other people's understanding. We all can learn from each other.
Well said
@@mikec.2188 My guy Mike C knows what's up! I feel like the Lord revealing to me/leading me to study the connection between fallen angels and the events of Genesis 6 and the gods and demigods of pagan beliefs has been the single biggest blessing on my walk as a believer. It brings joy to my soul to see others out in the wild talking about it!
Making connections like you just did between passages like this from the Bible and pagan myths is so eye opening and to me serves as one of the biggest proofs that our God is THE Creator, THE Lord of All. All the other religions are twistings of the truth but contain bits of real information that backs up the Biblical narrative. Of course, God didn't show this to me until I was first willing to set aside my doubts that I held on to for so long even as a believer, and just say "Lord, I have faith in you regardless of any proof". And THEN He showed me the evidence and there's mountains of it, but I couldn't see it until I was willing to fully have FAITH.
Also, in reference to the original comment, I do like the way he presents this in a humble way. I get so tired of people trying to teach on things like this that have multiple interpretations, and not even giving any credence to the fact that the other side has good reasons why they interpret it the way they do. This passage being interpreted as about Satan never sat right with me, even tho Dr. Heiser makes a good argument for it and I have learned a lot from him. Who can say for sure who it's talking about? But we as siblings in Christ should be able to discuss things like this with an open mind and hear each other out.
A true scholar gives his opinion and offers a counterargument, an expertise not owned by most people who attempt to explain complex texts. Kudos to this brother. I have watched this video a number of times, but I still find it educative every day.
"The land was full of idolatry and social injustice." Sounds like all of human history.
Sounds like the modern day US...sadly., worthlessly..
@@Greatdivider2001 Same in the UK
@@grantbartley483 cheers mate.
@Raymond Babcock Thanks. I was trying to say that the 'standard' reading is not necessarily to be interpretted in that way. In other words, to say they do already requires a particular interpretation.
@@Greatdivider2001 I use to think that but honestly every single decade could be signs of “coming times” but who knows
Yeshua said Himself (Luke 10:18) I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning...
Yes but he never called him Lucifer, which as was said was a translation of a Hebrew word into the Latin, so from the Latin Vulgate onward that word has been translated into Protestant bibles ever since. But the name Lucifer is never used in the New Testament, ever. Satan is called by many names in the NT but never Lucifer. So perhaps Jesus was referring to something else, with no relation the passages in the OT that the early church fathers interpreted as Satan's fall. Also the name Lucifer was never used in the Septuagint or the Jewish translations of the bible, so this interpretation appears to be wrong. I understand how they could have come up with this interpretation, but it's worth at least considering rethinking one's position on this matter.
James Woods In Luke, the word used is “Eatavas” or “Santanas”: ie The Accuser or the Devil... It’s clear in the original language...It’s even the same word used in Matthew 16:23; when Yeshua said, get behind me Satan... Sorry but it’s clear and easily searchable in the original language
@@davidlesley2257 Yes, well I'm not contesting the name Satan, or the title the accuser, the Satan. But what I'm suggesting is its an error to equate Lucifer with Satan, as Lucifer only appears to be a misranslation from the Latin Vulgate and is not the same person or being.
David Lesley his name is JESUS
“And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
Matthew 1:25 KJV
Luis Perez Yeshua is the hebrew word for Jesus dude. That’s like saying Yahweh and God are not the same lol
This professor is brilliant! A real biblical scholar!
I like how he presents the text and then gives more than one interpretation. He does put forth what he believes it means but does not act like "it's my way or the highway". Many things in the Old Testament have various interpretations.
I haven't watched this yet. I watched his presentation on Genesis 6. He did it right, compared scripture to scripture. . Some others on this channel are perverts. That means they twist scripture.
🤣
Brilliant???
@@michaelopoku4837 Hi Michael - I agree with you. I don’t find these teachers from Southern Cemetery… Opps “Seminary” … I agree that their teaching is more aimed at doubting what God’s Word clearly says. They present “cunningly devised fables”. (2Pet1:16 KJV)
He's a very boring man. I didn't get a lot from this video because my mind drowns out monotonous, lifeless , talk
Many have closed off their knowledge of Biblical studies by completely ignoring the impact of fairly recent archaeological finds that early church writers had no access to, yet many of us now have access to the discoveries from places like Ras Shamra, Ebla, the Dead Sea, etc. The illumination of Biblical understanding marches on. Great lecture Dr. Gentry! Thanks for doing the hard work of taking the Bible seriously.
Actually they had these texts, we are the ones just finding them
This needs to be made clear that the bible warns us against leaning onto our own understanding when interpreting the bible. I’m glad to see that many people in the comment section have been quick to point out the verses in Revelations that refer to Satan’s fall from heaven. When you study the bible you must compare scripture with scripture. Revelations provides further insight to the fall of Satan however not one of these are mentioned in this explanation which should be a concern.
The bible warns us against false teaching and unless you actually pick up your bible and study it for yourself under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and prayer. 1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
We should not leave ourselves open to have the bible interpreted to us by men who are in the eyes of society's intellectual voices of authority (deception comes in many forms). The bible teaches that only by prayer and the guidance from the Holy Spirit (in our studies on our own or with others) we will have an understanding of the word of God. The bible was given to all men to understand. Yes some people may have a better insight on a particular topic and God can lead us to this. But with all things concerning the scriptures, it is important for us to compare scriptures with scriptures to get a context of what God is saying to us. Some verses are plain and straight forward to understand and some require further study for insight.
Many people have rightfully pointed out in the comments that in Luke Jesus said he saw Satan fall from heaven.
Luke 10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Revelation 12:7-9 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
The verses found in revelations identifies this dragon or serpent of old as the same serpent that deceived man in the garden of Eden found in Genesis, an even deeper lesson is how Satan twists Gods word in order to play out his deception. Jesus warns again about people twisting the word of God (the bible). The verses below are from Genesis 3 and I would advise we all take time to read the whole chapter for ourselves.
Genesis 3: 4-5 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
This is Satan he is referring to.
Satan is the author of sin, it started with his rebellion in heaven against the law of God, and he has brought that same rebellion to man. But Jesus Christ will bring a finial end to the lies and the deceptions of Satan when he comes again.
James 1:16 don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.
2 Timothy 3:13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Job 12:16 To him belong strength and insight; both deceived and the deceiver are his.
Please read the bible for yourselves with careful study with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Like I said don’t take the words of others as gospel.
This is eye opening! Thank you
We should also remember that scripture is written in parables and should not always be taken literally.
Of the fruitof the tree in the midst of the garden you shall not eat.
Isaiah 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
This is what Eve done in the garden. This is what adam (mankind) does going into the churches and being fed swines flesh that has not life but death.
We are instructed to eat of all the trees of the garden, (does not say of the forest) for each of us has a part of yhe truth. It is good for food it is green herbs. But when we get to a point that we learn from one pastor we begin to be poisoned. That pastor (No exception) does not have all the truth. Get out of the Babylonian churches study to find yourselves approved. Search the scripture to see if these things are true.
Well said
I agree, it is not up to us to 'think' what we 'feel' the bible is telling us and to interpret of our own understanding. It's funny he's got a degree in Old Testament Interpretation and tries to take a scientific, rather than Spiritual approach to trying to literal-afy what is being applied here via a story or parable which is, by definition, open to interpretation. I would be very worried if this person were to preach. Without conviction from the Lord to guide you, he will lead millions to hell.
You make sense and very well spoken in explaining difficult teachings. Thank you for your work
I always wondered why ppl thought those passages were interpreted as the history of Satan's fall. I read it myself and couldn't figure that out
Jesus said, he saw the evil one cast out of heaven, and that he fell to the earth and hit the ground like lightening. That is written in the Bible, and it is a description. I believe every word.
What scripture is this?
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Exactly
Satan is a verb in the bible, not a noun.
Yes, But it Doesn't Go into Detail of How He Fell, Where They Fell, And When They Fell...No Doubt About it Though They Fell...Just Doesn't give much Detail.
Thank you for interacting with the specific arguments laid out by Dr. Michael Heiser on this topic and for sharing your honest evaluation of them. This sort of scholarly and respectful interaction between highly qualified Old Testament and Semitic studies scholars reflects well upon the reputation and integrity of Southern Baptist Seminary and their faculty.
I honestly found it to be mumbo jumbo. Give those two texts to a second grader who understands the concept of sin and it is clear that they are referring to supernatural events way beyond man. I do not need a theological degree to figure that out
Yoko Giri Agreed. However, the text was made to allow understanding from not a scholar but from the average person.
Yoko Giri If the Christian God is indeed omniscient, then He would know what translations would be created and who would read the inspired words from the what we call the bible. If this is the case, then we would not be giving God the credit He deserves by stating that He would not have known how to deliver the gospel in a form where everyone would understand. The bible actually does state claims where God wants all men to be saved. In doing such, the gospel, which is the central focus of the text would be made for all to understand.
Excellent Carl
The Bible is primarily about the Gospel not about who satan is and his origins. Although that is an interesting subject, Im more concerned about Jesus Christ and who He is.
I found it interesting that this professor would say that some verses in Ezekiel would have shocking to the "jewish" mind back in those days. I didnt realize that Israelites back then were getting bah mitzvah'd and studying the talmud...lol
@@jameswillison7195
My post was to Carl. Hence the "Excellent Carl". 🙂
I wish I had a tenth of the dedication and scholarship of Dr. Peter Gentry. As a son of two Greek parents who spoke and studied Greek until my senior year at Bronx HS of Science (lucky strike elective) I can attest that being intimately familiar with a language, i.e. Hebrew, truly matters to interpretation. In Greek "Logos" is translated as "the Word" in the beginning of Genesis but is used even in Modern conversational Greek as "the Reason" for something/a situation or occurrence! There's a big clue there I think.
John 1:1
@@lukev539 Yes, Christ (God) is the reason that anything occurs.
"Love" and "Sheol-Hades-Gehenna"=Hell and soon ....even the names of everyone have meanings that are 'hidden' by not explaining
Christ created the Earth and he IS the Word. It all falls in place.
Just learn Hebrew. It's not hard. Then begin
This man is one of the few that understand with the wisdom of God the true spirit of God. Finally not a false teacher! I have yet to find anyone with this type of Wisdom in the world.
No the man didn't understand the message at all....
Isaiah 14 is quite clear on that matter there the king of Babylon is never an angel but a man in the days of Isaiah just as we have in the days of prophet Ezekiel in the book of Ezek 28:12 how that king Tyrus sinned as Lucifer once sinned in the kingdom of heaven and the same Judgment that came upon him came upon them.
As a Jew, I feel as if I could gain so much from a conversation with this man. He seems to have a much more comprehensive and historically based understanding of the Torah. Beyond religious boundaries lies the one true realization, there is one God. Most High and Mighty. All will fall under his Judgement.
Exactly why you should turn to Christ, your Messiah. Check out One For Israel for arguments from fellow Jews as to why Jesus is God.
Prostitutes and tax collectors will be first in line to heaven. So follow the prostitute.
Thank you for your research and for providing a balanced perspective. You’ve raised multiple pertinent issues to consider. Now I am inspired to prayerfully study further.
"And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." Luke 10:18 Sounds a lot like "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Isaiah 14:12
Sounds alot like does not mean it's the same story..Check out Michael Heiser he talks about this and gives great explanations between the differing verses and interpretations of this.
@Joseph McCracken You are also incorrect. "Lucifer' means 'enlightened one'. He was one of the cherubs that covered the presence of the Lord and decided he wanted that glory for himself. "son of the dawn', 'shining one' etc.
It seems to be a reflection/prophecy of Rev 12, not Isaiah, especially when you expand the context to Luke 10:17-19. Satan was referred to as Satan, not Lucifer. He was already the Accuser (as we see in Job) at this point. He might have been Lucifer before (and I lean more to this view), but it doesn't seem like he was at the point of Luke 10 and Rev 12
Read the context of the conversation: "And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name. And he said unto them, "I beheld Satan fallen (,) as lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall in any wise hurt you. " (Luke 17-19, ASV)
Jesus is answering the disciples who are surprised by the outcome of ministry. Jesus knows the events of Revelations and by overcoming death that the victory is already won: "I beheld Satan fallen" he then gives a visual comparison of the intensity of this defeat/fall "like lightning from heaven" (10:18, NIV). The point of Him bringing up Satan at all is to tell them that Satan is defeated in the following verse: "do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
If Jesus was simply saying "I saw Satan being cast down from heaven" it doesn't make sense in the conversation because Satan still has power to tempt and corrupt on Earth (Job, Matt 4), *Jesus was talking about Satan's defeat.*
@Quick Thinking God makes everything with a purpose. Angels are defined by their purpose which is reflected in their name. For example Michael was first derived from the name Mikha'el, meaning “who is like God?”
Watched it twice. Great information, and video. Thank you for uploading.
I really celebrate that I "accidentally" discovered this excellent discussion! Dr. Gentry makes SO much sense!
Thank you so much for answering my questions with the literary teachings from the bible and the interpretations of the bible. I'm hooked on his once again. And have found my way once again.with that being said..thanks to you.
This is really helping me now that we are going threw quarantine. Keeps me on my toes studying my Bible and my Sunday school lessons.😇
*through* 🙏
Wow this was profound! Thank you for sharing. I appreciate your scholarship.
What a well thought out take. Kudos
I am not a Theist, but I still love this man's videos. He is a great teacher, well versed in his subject matter.
It's refreshing to see someone looking at the Bible from a more studied and historical view.
Very humble of you Frank.
That's good! But I want to say: there is some value in scholarship, but much more value in direct experience of God. Theism is not a matter of thinking that something is true and adhering to that, as most people assume, which leads them to question the existence of a supreme being... but it is moreso a matter of transformation of oneself toward becoming like what God is described as, and experiencing the communion with him which enables that, which is partly a type of inner joy or peace. To walk through the world with this peace and love toward Love contained within, and to have your life practically change for the better, your character for the better, is worth more than almost anything that exists. I know that the way I wrote this sounds a bit strange, but I felt moved to help someone who seems to be of good character, who seems to be stuck on an intellectual approach toward God (which has led to apparent atheism) rather than one that also involves feeling and experience.
Michael Heiser’s scholarly difference on Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 is far more persuasive and convincing. Moreover Heiser is not “cut off from” historical literature and archeological discovery. Therefore when he suggests that the reason some church fathers interpreted both chapters to refer to the fall of an angelic being is “because they were cut off” from modern scholarship, he is subtly suggesting that modern scholars who disagree with him may be as ignorant as the church fathers. When he does specifically mention Heiser’s views he oddly enough says Hesier tries to interpret both chapters in the light of ANE religious culture, BUT he interprets them in light of the background of the Old Testament. However his explanation on Isaiah 14 relies ENTIRELY on a Canaanite/Ugarit myth-not the Old Testament! Very perplexing to charge Heiser with an overemphasis extra-biblical date that he then picks up wholesale to undercut Heiser’s view on Isaiah 14.
He then goes on to say that Heiser doesn’t believe Adam is in view in Ezekiel 28 “because Heiser doesn’t think Adam can be called a cherub” (as in one of the cherubim). And yet shortly after when he describes the nature of a cherub he concedes they are ANGELIC BEINGS! (Yep- and this is exactly why Heiser says Adam can’t be the cherub of Ezekiel 28!)
Heiser is a greek or roman church father? I must have missed that.
This guy REALLY knows his stuff!
I am a Hebrew speaker reader and writer. However I was a lot better, and more fluent 20 years ago when I did a study on those two chapters in the original language. I agree wholeheartedly on what the Pastor here has said, reading it from a Middle Eastern - Hebraic point of view. Absolutely.
I really LOVE his tie!❤
A friend and I had been wondering about the proper pronunciation of Ba’al a couple weeks back. This expert in Biblical languages pronounced it BOTH ways in the span of 10 seconds... 😂
Depends on whether you want to anglicise it or not! I usually do since I don't consistently use traditional Hebrew pronunciation of Bible names.
Try running it on the free program, 'Read Please' for a version that reads a dictionary spelling as well. The normal method might need to 'tweak the spelling a bit' to get the best sound.
It is pronounced בעל bah-'AL as all Hebrew words, with few exceptions, place emphasis on the final syllable. the Hebrew language historically did not contain the diphthong of the combination eh-ee sound or long ā sound so it cannot be BAE-il as is commonly anglicized.
This channel is fantastic. Thank you :)
Thank you for watching!
This Brother is teaching!!! Love it!!
Wow. You watch the news and you start to think that all American Christianity has lost touch with the truth of the Bible. But that was remarkably refreshing both in his position and how he arrived at it.
I have been trying to explain something like this to my friend for years and he thinks I’m possessed . I’ll let him watch this. Thanks a lot
If you believe that God is a "real thing" then yea, you are possesed
He says there are many different interpretations but what people today continue to be ignorant of is that the bible interprets itself. The first interpretation is correct about the sons of god are the descendants of seth. When it says daughters of man, he mens the women outside the garden. Yes ther were other nations outside the garden. If one script in the bible doesnt make sense, a later scripture will tell you exactly what is mean. Let the bible speak the truth and count every man a liar. Just read the whole bible and make notes. its the only way to answer all questions
Ryan, ndo what hahaha
Possessed for asking questions? Get new friends
Fever Online ... well, you friend is obvi a brainwashed doop...Sorry not sorry, hope they wake soon.
AMAZING AND VERY INFORMATIVE
That’s the most amazing beard I’ve ever seen
I couldnt agree more. I have to repent for jealousy tbh lol
For real! I didn't notice until I read your comment but wow 😲
No gaps.
Oh you mean Diana's brother?
It seems plausible that passage can have a multi-layered meaning and could refer to both. But, I agree it makes no doctrinal difference.
scotte42 I like the 42. It is a very important number, my friend.
scotte42 yes it does because “Satan” doesn’t exist.
HE MISSED Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
- JESUS CHRIST
Higgins Multi later meanings to scripture is the whole premise of Kabbalah (Jewish tradition/mysticism).
ochaze1 having listened to this man on different videos I doubt that he missed the verse you reference. In any case, I believe all mysteries will be revealed to God’s children once we enter His kingdom. I am content to wait for that day.
We are Christ’s and He is ours. If I know nothing else, I know this without a shadow of doubt.
Also I’d like to add that I’m a subscriber and LOVE your videos. All your videos have been a spiritual blessing and has helped me in my spiritual education. I’ve learned lots from your biblical teaching.
Its a tough one, I am far from qualified to exposite these scripture references but I can honestly say I have struggled with the Satan description theory since it was pointed out to me. I've never wanted to give Satan so much glory as to prove or disprove what I was taught via Baptist theology. Thank you for this honest point of view. Jesus said in Luke 10:18 that He saw Satan fall like lightning, and in Rev 12:1-17 another brief description of events (v11 we overcome him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony, an important bit of info). So in the end, faith & focuss must remain on Christ lest we sink in the sea as Peter did. YaHWeH bless you my brethren.
All of Satan's names are not revealed until the latter chapters of Revelation. Lucifer in Isa:14 would be Satan as described in Re:20:1-3, a prisoner in chains. The people being punished in Isa:65, after being killed by a sword, are the same people the sword in the last verse of Re:19 kills. The place they are in is like a big bird cage with a locked door. People sent to hell are on the inside, on the other side are the fallen angels that sinned in Ge:6, and Satan, in chains. Satan would be mocked by the other fallen angels, as most men watched on in stunned silence, following him means all of them will end up going to the same fiery lake people are warned about in Re:21 as they begin a life that will see them become as wise about the Kingdom of God as any angel in their perfected heaven.
Very well put this is somebody’s theory. Sometimes theologians do not make any sense bc they are biased. Don’t get me wrong I like some of his discussions but this one I’ll pass.
I like this guy. Lots to learn.Thanks. Love Study of Writings and Interpretations
Awesome lesson. Love it. Thank you Dr Peter.
What about the Book of Revelation decription of the war in heaven and the fall of satan?..........
i really appreciate the perspectives that are being explain Dr. Peter Gentry's explanations. I have a CZcams channel called "Unitarian Anabaptist". I would really be interested in Interviewing Dr. Gentry on my station. What would be the best way to contact him? Thanks.
I have been a Person who loves God for the last 40 years of my life. More so over the last 10 years as I learn more from the old testament. I use to study mainly the new testament. But then I fell in love with the old testament and my love for God is in full bloom. Thank you, Jesus, my lord. I just want to say thank you and I really enjoy your lessons from the Bible. James in Texas. Keep up the good work of God.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5 ESV / 830 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.
This is what your GOD says about Non believers...
He feels so insecure that he wants people from other faith to be stoned...
I find Heiser’s interpretation more convincing. Regarding Isa 14:13 when did Adam ever say “I will ascend to heaven, above the stars of God, I will set my throne on high”. When did he ever express this level of pride? Is this just an oracle against an earthly king? When was the king of Babylon ever called the Day Star, son of dawn? Was he fallen “from heaven”? It’s hard for me to not see the parallels to Satan.
I think Isaiah 14 says ,”you said in your heart” so its not claiming something that was necessarily spoken out loud. Even if it was we know we don’t have the record of everything Adam ever said but figuratively wouldn’t you say that is exactly what Adam said when he decided and acted to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. Isn’t the sin of autonomy the expression of pride to say we want to sit on the throne of our lives, making the decisions, and determining what is right for us; thereby, Adam and all of humanity attempt to set our own thrones above God’s. With reference to “Day Star” or “Son of Dawn” Dr. Gentry is saying that those titles are from Canaanite religious myths and are being used by the author to make fun of the king of Babylon the way current media makes fun of politicians by comparing them to others. I do appreciate that Dr. Gentry enters the conversation by admitting that it doesn’t impact our doctrine and we should treat those who hold a differing opinion with respect.
Gentry did not claim that Isa 14 was about Adam. He claimed Isaiah 14 was parodying the story about Athtar in the Baal Cycle. Israel, being full of Baal worshippers, they would have all understood the reference.
A parallel to the story of satan has to come from a story about literally satan falling from heaven and becoming the devil. So where is that story? Where is the facts about satan falling to hell?
Read revelation chapter 12 about the war in heaven. Satan was cast out down to the earth where he is allowed to tempt mankind. God has given us agency and wants us to choose him rather than Satan which leaves it up to us to turn away from sin. I use other scripture along with the Bible. In the book or Moses chapter 4 explains the fall of Satan from heaven. Look up the book of Moses on lds"org. You can read chapter 4 for yourself it's awesome.
I agree with you.
I have said for many years that these passages do not apply to satan. It is nice to see a video that shares the same conviction.
In my experience satan is irrationality and this also applies to or explains death. In the beginning of the bible God curses man & and woman for their iniquity. This is vey hard for the unlearned to grasp and probably impossible
@@derekstaroba
Yes, Gnostic thinking is hard to grasp when one doesn't think like a Gnostic
@@randalwdeese im still learning myself this is very strange
@@derekstaroba
Blessings to you
@@randalwdeese its impossible that life evolved. Its more than doubly impossible that life evolved at a time on this planet when the moon is exactly the right distance and size away from the earth as to occasionally block out the sun. If lifevwas so common we would see it everywhere. You would have to invent a very strange/even stranger store to explain that. The fact that we exist at all and can think is spectacularly impossible. God is the truth
Great knowledge, great neck tie.
I can't find fault in your words, so I am accepting a clarity to uncertainty that I will apply to my understanding because of yours . I certainly appreciate that
Thanks for taking time to explain the whole in detail.
Where can I get a tie like that...? I need it for sure.
Very diligent commentary by a brilliant scholar, very discussion
This is a good explanation and I apriciate the engagment with Heiser thanks for the hard work here. I lean towards your view but in all these things charity
Buenos días. Este video se puede encontrar doblado al español o subtitulado? Quedo atento a sus comentarios. Gracia y paz.
Hola, solo active los subtítulos y active la función auto-traducción y seleccione el idioma Spanish o Español
What about Revelation 12:7~12, Reve 20:1~3, as well as Reve 20 : 7~10 ?
Andrew Dong
These are good points.
Well you have to understand that the people from that time, when the Revelation was written, were also interpreting the old testament. It could very well be that Isaiah's text was interpreted to be the story of satan's fall, while it wasn't intended to be. Thus the author of the Revelation relied on this interpretation, while writing the parts, you pointed out.
@@XDTVreloadet
"Well you have to understand that the people from that time, when the Revelation was written, were also interpreting the old testament"
But, most people that believe the Bible is the word of God, thus people aren't interpreting anything. God gives them what they need to write.
@marana tha, of course he will not look at Revelation because it wouldn't worked for him for what he wants to tell us. I don't trust this man.
@@Nikronius yeah I just don't buy that the Apostle John either misunderstood anything as he said himself he heard a voice behind him. He didn't say it was a vision. Second he definitely wouldn't have used all that metaphor then spoke about Jesus. Metaphorical returns to adjudicate and reward believers and feast with them all these things don't make too much sense if the it's 90% allegory
Thank you Dr. Gentry for this video.
Excellent! Thank you!
Very great video. Thank you, sir! God bless!
Just kind of stumbled across this and really appreciate it. As much and as often as I've read the Ezekiel temple passages, it had never occurred to me that no height is mentioned. That, and the river as you explain here, make much more sense with that in mind, that it's an allegory of future worship. Can you give any links or sources that would help flesh out the rest of the meaning of the temple?
Also, I appreciate your humility. I am a big fan of Dr. Heiser and think he has done the body of Christ a great service in trying to get us to think more like the people to which the Bible was written and to reach out beyond whatever "systems" we have grown up in and around. But...none of us is perfect or has all the knowledge of the truth. Perhaps some of the more obscure and challenging passages were placed there to keep us humble. We've all seen cults arise just because some mortal has claimed to have all the answers.
Thank you for this message! God bless!
Love Michael Heiser. Wish I could see a conversation between these two.
Anne Chovey: it would be a debate. Mike Heiser believes the polar opposite, from Apocrypha like 1 Enoch - he says the devil himself fell and literally is the King of Tyre. (Satan means Adversary, it's a type).
Great video btw!
Very pleasant to listen to.
So. Much. To think. About. 🤯 finding it very interesting!
The Professor is correct in saying that "Lucifer" was just a Latin term and not a name.
He makes a mistake however in how he approaches the Church Fathers and their interpretation. One of the Achilles heel of modern people is that they imagine themselves so much more knowledgeable and beyond their predecessors. Academia is infested with this sort of thought.
Now I think he's not altogether wrong, but instead of reading it to be necessarily one way and not realizing there are multiple meanings that are behind these verses. Not either/or but both/and.
The individuals mentioned were reminiscent of the downfall of Satan. Hence the double meaning in these verses of Holy Scripture.
Nektarios H You’re making excuses no where in the Bible is that story (Lucifer’s fall) mentioned. You just want to stick to your doctrines
@BullHead Not that i agree with anyone,but u should practice what you preach. You showed your ego by chuckling and telling the other guy to check his .
One is not a Father unless he has known him who is from the beginning (1 Jn. 2:13 & 14.) John goes further in describing this in Jesus prayer in chapter 17 of his gospel. Chapter 7 in the book of Daniel may also be helpful in it's description of the Ancient of Days and approaching him to receive your kingdom name. Just know that the name God gives you is already within the meaning of the one Jesus obtained through his death, burial and resurrection. Your name is only a portion, but the name of the Lord to which every knee will bow and tongue confess is all in all.
Yes, what you are saying about layered purposes and proofs and meanings from God, even without church tradition involved, can be seen elsewhere and especially in prophecies where there is the more literal immediate prediction and then a later symbolic very similar occurrence falling under the same prophecy. Multipurpose Mirroring like that is not unusual at all so your point is definitely valid.
A man of this guys calibre has studied systematics and the development of the empiricism and post modernism, I'm sure he is well aware of his presuppositions, and those of the biblical writers.
Allegory is a slippery slope for biblical interpretation. Once you start down that road, the sword starts to lose its edge.
Thank you Dr Gentry
I never thought I would hear reference made to Robin Hood: Men in Tights in one of these videos, but I'm glad I did! Haha
Honestly love it more because of it. Lol
that movie is hilarious 😂
Obviously I’m expecting a Monty Python reference next haha
Bro, I was like "wait what?" Lol.
I can speak with an English accent.
I love the tie 😊
Which text?
I love it when ppl pay attention to the grammar of the text.
You left out your period. 😄
You’re balanced, my brother. Very good
Did Adam “walk in the midst of the stones of fire?”
😂😂 again for those with dull or itching ears
Absolutely, NOT!
That was Lucifer
No
Yes. Stones of Fire is a phrase used to describe the meeting place of heaven and earth, holy ground. AKA the Garden of Eden. Eden was Yahweh's throneroom on earth.
The book of Ezekiel goes into detail about Lucifer being perfect in beauty. Every precious stone adored his body. Music like Instrument parts were a part of his body. This is not a description of a physical mortal man. There is so much confusion and without the spirit of God one cannot completely understand the word of God regardless of one’s academic level. What this man says seems more of an opinion that clearly supports personal tastes.
Deal Withit; Hi there I would like to know where you got "the name Lucifer" because it is not in the Bible, or in the original languages. This word "lucifer" is from Jeromes Latin translation that uses the Latin word "luciferous" , it means to shine bright, or light bearer, it is not a personal pronoun not a name. Please look that up in the Hebrew your texts, because then you would be passing false information. Thank you
@@persempre2010
Helel or Howl? Which would you prefer? Tell me, Which term would all historians and scholars agree on?
False information seems to come from the ones that have written Bibles with assignments of names were they do not belong. Which Bible s are corrupt? Which are not? The writers of these fraudulent copies are the blame not the every day citizens that have trust in God.
Mankind has his own way of interpreting words to his liking or language. Trying to be as technical as possible does not save a mans soul from hell. Or should I call it Sheol? Or maybe Hades or….?
Or other terms that scholars may also prefer to their liking? Whether its the Serpent, Devil, Light bearer, (Lucifer), Father of lies,etc. The point is made. The book of Ezekiel is clear the description is not a moral man.
As often Lucifer is a misinterpretation of morning star aka Venus which is what Lucifer means in latin. The latin was translating the Hebrew that also meant morning star. So Lucifer is not a name. Christians put their own false meaning onto verses which is just wrong. by the way, apparently what you know as "Lucifer, the fallen angel" is actually the fallen angle Samyaza,
Mortal man.
Deal withit I agree with you brother. Yes we revere God but you fall into religion when you focus so much on words. What about those with speech impediments? Eternal damnation for false and misinterpreted. Names of G-D. If you could clear that up I would appreciate it much love brothers!
This is the kind of explanation I like.
Very enlightening!
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
There are many that intelligent enough to predict the disastrous results of their choices, yet choose the disaster anyway. Satan is depicted as being full of pride. And his hubris will never let him admit his error and ask for forgiveness. He believes God has unjustly deprived him of what he deserves. And like many of the intelligent, he believes his value is increased by his intelligence and he cannot be wrong. Hmm. I just realize that I described a large number of atheists. Anyway, all this does not contradict what Jesus said about his evil. He WAS evil from the beginning; he was created with the character flaw of overweening pride.
gary barr That’s not how pride works bro.
@@markk34 Are you talking about pride or hubris? Hubris accepts no compromise and cannot repent. See Paradise Lost, Oedipus the King, Antigone, The Story of Phaethon, The Illiad, The Odyssey, Aristotle's Rhetoric, etc.
TheAstilesus both. Hubris and also the state of being prideful.
Maybe those passages could describe both Satan's fall and the king of Tyre at the same time.
They do brother
That's what I always understood it to be.
The reference to men in tights got my like, thanks for the great content!
This man has such Truth. Please write books. It is simplified easily for my mine to understand. Books would be a gift for generations to come.
Thank you very much for your contribution to this discussion Dr. Gentry. It's good to hear the other side to these things, especially in the respectful tone that you demonstrated.
I had never heard that interpretation of the meaning of the wheels in Ezekiel's "visions of God," I.e. that it means the presence of God was leaving the temple and the people until the new covenant. It actually makes a lot of sense. Again, thank you for sharing!
Why quote on quote visions of God?
@@PrototypeScope just because that is the explicit phrase used several times in Ezekiel to describe what Ezekiel was seeing.
@@ryanquin2290 Ok, sounded as though you didn't believe they were visions of God or that visions of God are not possible,. thanks
@@PrototypeScope oh I Gotchya... Yeah no I definitely believe in visions of God.
Thank you so much for an alternative view against my modest ignorance. Love to all.
wow that was eye opening thank you so much God bless
Wow well put
This guy is brilliant, great scholar. However, in this particular presentation, I’m going to still hold on to the Isaiah And Ezekiel passages as descriptions of Lucifer. Agree to disagree.
In Isa. 14:4, the identifier of Lucifer is the king of Babylon. But of course, everyone assumes that Lucifer is Satan, that's how ingrained in tradition we are.
@@thomasdidymas7843 so is that nimrod?
Satn and lusifer are one
Its he's angel name meaning Barer of light ( Lucifer)
But when he falls he change he's name into Satan ( enemy)
@@youngtied2092 yes, at least that's who it seems to point to
Could "covering cherub" refer to how Adam hides and covers himself out of shame later in the story?
Now you might have something there!!! 🤔 that’s an excellent question
Would be interesting to see a discussion with Michael Heiser on his points, both are very knowledgeable and have interesting points.
Outstanding teaching on this subject. I like his humbleness yet he is highly educated in scripture and has a great ability to convey differing opinions including his own.
No he is getting it so wrongly though he quoted alot of scriptures.
Isaiah 14 is quite clear on that matter, there the king of Babylon is never an angel but a man in the days of Isaiah just as we have in the days of prophet Ezekiel in the book of Ezek 28:12 how that king Tyrus sinned as Lucifer once sinned in the kingdom of heaven and the same Judgment that came upon him came upon them.
Thank you very much brother. I‘m very blessed by your answer an the whole channel. Very interesting and found. What about the scripture in the one of the 4 gospels, where Jesus himself says, that he saw the devil falling like a flash to earth.
Dr. Gentry, thank you for the thoughtful explanation to the Isaiah and Ezekiel passages. I completely agree with you on the Isaiah passage. I also agree with you on the Ezekiel passage in terms of the Adamic figure for this young up start-up king. However, I do wonder if that is true in addition to Ezekiel also referring to Satan. Here is my logic: some ancient cultures outside of Christianity have accounts of a flood narrative just as we do as Christians. Is it possible that some cultures in the OT not only had passed down story’s about the flood but also about the fall of Satan? I am driving at the fact that Ezekiel could have been speaking metaphorically while referring to the ancient shared narrative of Satan given that the story could have been passed down in ancient tyre just like the flood in other cultures. Has this potential link been teased out completely with archaeological support? What I’m saying is this: did the story of this young up-start God have it’s origins in the more ancient story of the fall Satan then become bastardized by the word of mouthing passing down method by this pagan culture, but with the common shared roots being referenced by Ezekiel?
Hmm... That's truly something to think about
Wow very cool thanks for the great work.
He did an amazing job explaining it.
Recently I heard a famous Pastor (late) giving an account of his encounter with satan. He claimed and taught that satan was created by God as satan, in the beginning. Now, the pastor's son and other church leaders continue with this understanding and spread his teaching around the world. However, I could not take it and I had to refute his this ONE teaching.
You should have paid more attention?
@@billhuffman4327 Dear Brother, do you also believe that satan was created as 'satan' in the beginning?
@NeoBPP The word "the beginning" is not "the beginning" of Genesis 1:1 or John 1:1. It is from the "beginning" of satan. Please read the following:
Genesis 1: 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.
As per this teaching satan was/is good. Can it be so? also @Bill Huffman
Eschatology Matters! When your understanding of the end times is wrong, it effects all other doctrines - to one degree or another.
There is a move today, in the forging of the rebellion ( apostasy)to eliminate a literal, end times Time of Jacob's Trouble, in light of reconstructing a "kingdom now Dominion-ism"where "Jesus comes back to play nice)- The Antichrist .I agree w/ your comment!
Remember: one can be "Pan-Trib" ... it'll all pan out in the End.
The different interpretations has been called "The battle of the bible: Covenant theology vs Dispensational theology". It can get pretty heated by both camps. Each one calling the other heretics.
So very true.
Shaken not stirred how about a post-trib one?
Great explanation
Very helpful and accurate, I think, interpretation of the two passages that seem to refer to Satan's fall. I recently published a video on CZcams (How Satan works/Delivered from HIV AIDS) in which I reference these the two scriptures and I was worried I may have misunderstood. At least I called the individuals being talked about in the respective passages - typologies. Thank you for the relief your presentation has brought. Your humility is striking. I noticed your admission about the difficulties that these passages pose to serious interpreters of scriptures. God bless you richly.
I had never really heard of the Ezekiel passage interpreted to be about satan's fall. But, even after watching this video, I think the passage in Isaiah is about his fall as well as about the king. Even if it matches a story of the time, even the Quran has a story (one of the only coherent stories in it) that very well sounds like satan's perspective of his rebellion.
“O Saul, it shall be
A Face like my face that receives thee; a Man like to me,
Thou shalt love and be loved by, forever: a Hand like this hand
Shall throw open the gates of a new life to thee! See the Christ stand!”
30 minutes to basically say, "There was no instance in the Bible where Satan fell... we just know that he fell 'cause reasons..."
That's really not at all what he's saying. He's saying we don't know, and we shouldn't assume that we do. I find that very reasonable, and happen to agree. Where the Bible speaks we should listen, but where it falls silent we shouldn't and mustn't leap to conclusions. That's what you would call dogma, and it's very dangerous to the Christian faith.
I just found this like, I like how he speaks
Very fascinating and enlightening. He explains from a more historical based perspective rather than a symbology perspective.
Thank you for this video.. my approach too this very subject has been humbled and enriched.. it’s a toss up for me but nevertheless this was very educating and beautifully presented and explained.. really enjoyed this. God bless
Never studied much on who the devil is and why we believe what we do. This gave me a lot to consider and a reason for further study.
Please look up Pastor Charles Lawson of Temple Baptist in Knoxville TN. There you will FEEL the Holy Spirit. This is academic and heady. If you want heart, spirit, and JESUS our Lord...go to TN : )
I agree,
Good stuff!
Dr. Gentry is my favorite. Can you give him his own channel please?
Some consecrated thinking I have journeyed through... Speaking to the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 does describes Satan...
Read it:
Ezekiel 28:14-19 (NASB) "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.."Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you. "By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. "All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."’"
Was a guard “cherob” on the Mount of God magnifying His glory... but it wasn’t good enough for him, he wanted to be like God, he sinned and was cast to the ground, aka earth, he wanted in all ways to be like God but unfortunately that is and proves to impossible for him. Look at the similarities we face, it’s eerily similar as unrepentant sinful non-believers.
Earth is satan’s prison, God created a handful of dust to do what God created Satan to and our reward for living for Christ as a repentant believer is the very thing Satan was covered in. Our warning is when we think we can take Satan on he will crush us by the sovereign will of the Father. In the end all our rewards goes through fire... When gold, precious stones and Jewels goes through fire it is purified to magnify brighter. When wood hay and stubble goes through fire it is consumed and no longer exists. If I see you on the streets of glory and all I see is you I haven’t seen much but if you are covered in gold, silver and previous stones... “greater is He that is in me.” I see the Glory of God reflecting off you.
My simple Holy Spirit directed consecrated “non-formal” educated mind with interlinear tools.
I don’t know about you, if someone replaced me that was made out of the lowest forms of materials under foot, I’d probably be upset to!
Jesus is LORD!
“His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie...” (1 John 2:27, NASB)
I pray this encourages someone!!!
Satan is nowhere described in the bible as a cherub. Cherubim have the appearance like either a man, a bull, a lion, or eagle. Some have changing
appearances of all four.
Satan has reptilian characteristics, whether he is described as a serpent (Hebrew nachach) or
as a dragon (Hebrew tanniyn and Greek drakon). No other created being in Scripture has such reptilian features and attributes, with the possible exception of seraphim, as some scholars have noted (see Numbers 21:8-9 and Isaiah 14:29). Seraphs are distinct beings from
cherubs.
It's poetic language.
It is plain as day, not difficult to comprehend, for those with discernment that Ezekiel 28 is speaking of lucifer AKA Satan.
The issue with this is that it states he was on the mountain of God in the midst of the fire (the event from EXODUS 19) meaning what? That Satan was the Angel who spoke to Moses on the mount? Wouldn't that be an insane revelation?
My question is who are these Kings mentioned here : "I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings" ?