Seinen vs Shonen always seemed like a weird western thing to me. It always seemed like a weird distinction being made by English-speaking fans who just want to flex their tastes as being better than others…..
That's pretty much it. I don't think most adults actually care about what's a seinen or what's a shonen. A good story is a good story, its target demographic shouldn't matter
@@NINJAMUSHI Honestly, it always seemed to be a misunderstanding of what the classifications actually were more than anything else. Age's back, most of my fellow western weeb's believed that they were classifications of Genre's from the reader's perspective; Rather than the classifications of target demographic from a publishers view which they are. It seems that this misunderstanding has persisted to the modern day. Only now, the preconceived misconception is so firmly tooted in western readers that justifications and exceptions to the established dogma are mainly what's argued about. Publishers and demographics change over time, which is an often overlooked aspect to how it's survived all this time. It is why there are indeed works that are similar or even less graphic or heavy in "Adult" themed content from years past that such people point to as "Proof" that X shonen allegedly should be in the other classification or vice versa. To put it another way, the older hard R18+ movies are comparatively pretty tame by most M15+ modern standards. The content hasn't changed, however the Audiences expectations and view on older content has
I can understand that and it's valid to have those issues. I do hope life gets better for you and things work out. Personally, I'm 25 and in a spot in my life where I'm not really concerned with getting a girl or eating well but instead buying a house and starting a family. I love Denji and his story but can't really relate with him in any meaningful way
As a girl, I wouldn't have related with Denji at 15, and I don't relate to him that much as a 20 y/o, but I do think he's an interesting character to follow. I don't see why it's so important to relate to characters to enjoy something. If the story is good, it doesn't matter that I don't relate to its characters.
It's funny you put dorohedoro for the "shonen != seinen" visual because dorohedoro switched to a shonen magazine during the final arc lol. Also "Chainsaw man isn't as profound as all these other seinen manga" was completely unneeded when the whole video was you trying to say the only thing that determines shonen vs seinen is it's marketing. Shonen don't have to be any less profound than seinen. Titles like AoT or HxH try to tackle concepts incredibly similar to those in series like berserk. I personally find that AoT, chainsaw man, hunter x hunter, and one piece have more to say than monster, definitely more than Pluto or 20th century boys (but I didn't like 20th century boys because I didn't feel like it had anything to say). Marketing also doesn't stop a series from being profound. Series targeted towards teens don't have to be not profound, like, teens have the capability to understand literature, they literally have classes on it in school. There is also a difference in the target age audience for different magazines even within the "shonen" and "seinen" label. Regardless, what I feel like people usually mean when they say "X isn't really shonen" is "X is not a TRADITIONAL BATTLE shonen." They conflate the demographic shonen with the genre battle shonen, which certainly does exist.
Right, but Dorohedoro was in a shonen magazine for less than a year out of its 18 years of publishing and the magazine cover I used isn't from that time period. Would be the same thing if I used a cover from JoJo parts 1-6 as the shonen example. Also, I feel like what I was getting at with "the only thing that determines shonen vs seinen is its marketing" is being lost in translation just a little. What I'm saying is that we, the fans, cannot decide whether a manga is shonen or seinen. That is entirely decided on by publishers/magazines. The back half of the video is about whether CSM (or other shonen) should have been in a seinen magazine instead and how, despite it's darker moments, I agree with Shueisha that it's better fit for a younger audience than a seinen audience-in comparison to the seinen I mentioned which were better fit for an older audience. I'm not trying to speak on the whole of shonen in that instance, only that CSM is not so complex, mature, or profound that it would have been a better fit for an older audience. I'm not saying CSM doesn't have dark moments or profound things to say-just that those elements are not so mature that it needed to be seinen. I do generally agree with what you're saying in the last bit of your comment, though. Thanks for giving your thoughts!
I agree on the CSM point. If you truly believe that the publishers intention is the only factor that determines whether a manga is shonen or seinen, you don't get to then comment on other qualities (like being profound) in regards to them being a shonen or seinen.
big wall of text because I feel like no one is getting what I'm saying in this video Mega sigh. Did you not see the clear divide in middle of the video at 6:19? "I think I’ve covered all the bases in terms of technicalities. ... What about in a different sense, though? Some people understand that a manga like Hunter x Hunter is a shonen but don’t believe it should be a shonen-instead it should have been in a seinen magazine." The first half of the video is about whether CSM (or any other shonen) CAN be a seinen (it can't, without changing magazines) and the back half is about if CSM SHOULD have been seinen. My conclusion is that whether it should have been a seinen is a matter of perspective, but I agree with Shueisha's choice to put it in a shonen magazine because of the various reasons listed. Even if the magazine determines if a manga is shonen/seinen, I can still give my perspective if I think it's a good fit for a teenage audience or not-which it is. If CSM was in a seinen magazine, it would be seinen regardless of what I think. But it isn't a seinen and it aligns with what I personally think is appropriate for a teenage audience, especially older teens. You guys can stroke Fujimoto's dick all you want, but what it says thematically is still fairly straight forward, easily digestible, and relatable to younger people. It says a lot but what it's saying isn't so mature it can't be appreciated by teens. In contrast, I don't think the seinen I mentioned in the video have themes that would be quite so appealing to younger people-certainly not as relatable. Can you name any themes in CSM that a 16 year old couldn't understand? I can certainly name things within, let's just say, Punpun that the average teen would absolutely not understand. Maybe profound wasn't 100% the correct word to use (even though I still think that's true) but what is actually driving me insane is how many people are completely glossing over how I literally said that CSM has a lot to say and has some mature ideas. Not even going to pretend to not be annoyed, CSM fans give me hives tl;dr I can absolutely say X shonen is a shonen because it's in a shonen magazine and still comment on whether its content is or isn't appropriate for teens by my own standards
@@NINJAMUSHI Okay, I 100% totally agree that CSM isn't nearly as mature or 'profound' or meaningful as Goodnight Punpun. I even agree with your overall point that CSM and all those other series are undoubtedly Shonen as per definition. But the only thing is that you can't comment on the qualites of two manga with respect to them being shonen or seinen in the same video after taking half the video to explain how the qualities don't have anything to do with them being one of the two.
I feel people usually confuse Shonen and Seinen with the arbitrary rating system (Shonen TVY7-TVPG/TV14 and Seinen TV14-TVMA) used in America and places that use similar ones. It just feels they can't get past the mature/dark/complex = for adults. If we followed these guidelines then stuff like K-on or Kaguya more than likely wouldn't be a seinen. It's always funny seeing people practically demand their teenage boy show/manga be more adult. I'm pretty sure half my favorite list are shonen, and the media's quality shouldn't rely on what magazine they are published in.
there are always going to be mangas that push the boundaries of shounen or seinen since that's just what happens when you separate things into categories. H2O has solid, liquid, and gas forms, but it depends on what temperature it's at to influence which form it takes. different publishers have different "temperatures" they rate mangas at, so something that would be put in the seinen magazine with one publisher could be put in the shounen magazine with another publisher. time can also change the lens a publisher looks at a work through, which could result in them changing the magazine it's in, or result in a manga similar to a seinen from a couple decades ago being put in the shounen magazine. however, the temperature of H2O doesn't change the fact that it's H2O, similar to how the marketing of a manga won't change the content of the manga. focusing on and arguing about what demographic it's marketed to won't change the manga, and honestly it's 1.) pointless and 2.) reductive to the overall conversation surrounding the manga.
Most of it is just a difference of in cultural standards. American marketers and standards and practices departments would NEVER say that Chainsaw Man is for teens. So to American fans the idea goes that if it couldn’t run right between Naruto and Card Captor Sakura it must a Seinen right? Air times probably have something to do with it. A lot of the big influential shonen had to be played late night. It’s one of the many ways western fans have imported meaning into anime where there isn’t any.
I think the problem is that most people have a different definition of what shonen and seninen is some people use them as descriptors of the content inside of the manga while other people use it as a statement whether or not the publishers believe it is a shonen manga or not.
2:24 to be fair, jojo’s is a weird exception to this whole debacle of shonen vs seinen because it’s both a shonen and a seinen at the same time given that parts 1-6 were in weekly shonen jump and 7 onwards were in ultra jump.
I've heard the jokes about Fujimoto Tatsuki having dirt on the publishers of Jump and blackmailing them into letting him do anything But now it really makes sense for them to really really really want him working at their label, explicit content is not illegal after all I'm sure a big movie studio, like Disney for example, would go as far as bending the rules for the sake of their own Chris Nolan "Oh, PG-13 rating lets you include just 1 F-Bomb? Well, this story needs at least 3, so we'll gladly lobby it hard if needed"
The real nightmare of the shonen seinen distinction is the fact that different people can handle different amount of "mature" content in the media they consume there are some adults who can't handle the violence in a shonen manga and there are some teens that can handle the violence in a manga aimed at adults. If you're going by averages these distinctions make perfect sense.
That's a very fair point to make! I watched/read a good number of seinen as a teen (became a Berserk fan in my mid-teens) but I don't think that applies to everyone.
I’ve been into anime for a while but didn’t become a big manga fan until recently, I’ve been seeing seinen in a lot of comment sections and got so confused I had no idea what that was lol. Thanks for the explanation, great video
Great points about people wanting their beloved content to not be explicitly for kids--not gonna argue about the overall message--but I really think it's reductionist to define a genre by where it's published, even if it is technically accurate. I feel like it's missing the point of the discussion? Like, yes shonen is technically the same as PG-13 in the west, but it would be weird to stop the discussion there, ya know? Also about Chainsaw Man, it actually DID have content that wasn't published in Shonen Jump for being age-inappropriate--which pokes holes in this whole argument, but again I don't think the technical definition is the most relevant part of the discussion on what makes the difference between seinen and shounen. These things tend to be more nuanced than that
You're screaming into the void, frankly. The demographic based definition of shonen and seinen isn't what people in the west generally use because they don't buy magazines, where something is published is irrelevant to them. Shonen and Seinen are pretty strictly talked about like genres in the west, someone who is asking whether something is a shonen or seinen is trying to derive the nature of the series based on the answer you give them. And I'll tell you if someone asked you for a good seinen and you recommended Bisque Doll they'll probably be confused or upset. I know that using shonen/seinen in that way is far far from perfect and I agree that using "seinen" as a cudgel to beat "shonen" is cringe when it happens, but I feel most of this video is just a big "umm aktchully" to a very wide group of people simply trying to apply a consistent label to the things they enjoy so that they can find more things like it.
I guess my problem with that is I think there's plenty of other ways to find similar manga without distorting the singular words that describe the demographics. If you change the meaning of shonen/seinen in English, then it becomes counterproductive when we want to actually talk about shonen or seinen. If you contort the meaning of shonen/seinen, then there are no single words left to describe it. On the other hand, there's plenty of ways to describe the actual qualities people are intending to describe it. For instance, I think it's far more helpful to call Berserk a dark fantasy than a seinen. That'll lead you to finding something like Claymore, which might be more similar to it than even other seinen like Gantz. I honestly don't even think using seinen as a genre is that helpful because of how there's other genres to describe what a manga is in a better way. Maybe it comes off as um actually but I'd rather that than to feed the tend of being wrong about what shonen/seinen is. I hope people eventually realize this isn't the most helpful way to label things, but time will only tell
@@NINJAMUSHI I completely agree you when it comes to seinen and describing them, that's the way we should go moving forward. I just don't think that this video was pushing that message as it's primary goal, that's all. Then there's a more complicated issue of "shonen" being short for "battle shonen", which actually is a reasonably defined genre that reliably leads people to similar series, but that's a different discussion.
@@NINJAMUSHI I don't agree with seinen/shonen distinction being useless/having little use. Using seinen/shonen as additional tags is helpful, less helpful than having more specific tags like "dark fantasy", "isekai" but still helpful. For example if you don't know/don't care manga of what genre or what thematic you want but you want to read something heavy, then searching for seinen manga is justified. My point is seinen/shonen distinction tells you about nature of the story pretty good, it's not always on point but most of the times it is - so orienting on it is statistically justified
jeez why are all the comments here essays I could use for my English exams, I just came here because I'm obsessed with Chainsaw Man. Also great video I agree a lot
I mean if you want to get into labels on whatever magazine manga is released on, then that means Kaguya sama is _technically_ Shounen, which is weird af ngl
It's semantic, sure, but I only get frustrated with it because incorrectly calling any manga a shonen/seinen then devalues its use as a word. It's like I said in other comments, my problem is that there are other words/genres to more accurately describe what a manga/anime is but there are no other singular words to describe "a manga that is targeted at ____." I can say CSM is an ultra-violent manga and that doesn't take away from "ultra-violent" or any other word, as opposed to calling it a seinen (which pollutes its meaning). If you take away that meaning from shonen/seinen, then there's no other words to replace what they actually which makes describing a manga (especially in an analytical sense) more difficult for no reason. I'm a semantic guy in general, though.
Thanks for the video! I didn’t know that was the correct definition. I found your video after starting the CSM2 manga and thinking “jesus, is that really for teenagers?”. So TIL what Shonen and Seinen really means
After I read CSM I was surprised to find out it's labeled as Shounen LOL And now after watching your video, I see why my views were like this. Great video!
While i agree with your main point I disagree that chainsaw man doesn't say a lot . Although there isn't as much text as other manga a lot can be interpreted from it, like the themes of taking control of your own life, whether ignorance is truly bliss, if living a safe or risky life is better, etc.
7:42 "[Chainsaw Man is a] great action packed story with a lot to say" I didn't say it didn't have a lot to say-because it does-just that I don't think anything that it does say is so profoundly mature that it would be better fit for adults, in comparison to a number of my favorite seinen which have more adult-oriented themes. Basically, CSM says a lot but what it's saying is something teens could connect with
You can interpret pretty much anything and make thesis and theories about certain character motives and situations that are open to interpretation and then calling it deep. but this literally the meme "i´m 14 and this is deep", which its where chainsaw man falls.
i really think this is a product of shounen being about as unhelpful as jrpgs as a way to classify something dark shounen exist, so do dark seinen, but lighthearted youth type seinen exist too, like kaguya sama or ao ashi,
While I agree with your assessment that calling everything a seinen is incorrect and many people might do it to elevate the thing they like away from being "just a kid's show", I think you are incorrect when you say these words are only marketing based. The word shonen does imply certain genre conventions you would expect. That's why when you say a thing is unusual for shonen, people will understand that i breaks the usual conventions of what is common in these magazines. Let's say someone talks about battle shonen, a genre strongly influenced by the big three and WSJ of the 2000s. Using the word shonen implies certain tropes here and the word is not used solely because of marketing. I believe a good chunk of anime fans do understand that shonen is used as a term for marketing, but a word can evolve and have multiple facets. There's also the fact that there are things you can and cannot show in a shonen. An ecchi shonen will be different from an ecchi seinen. Heck there even seems to be differences in what you can show in physicals vs. digital magazines like how Ayakashi Triangle got yeeted to Digital a few weeks ago, probably due to being too lewd. So I think people all in all use the word seinen more in a similiar vein to how people would use Kafkaesque: They do realize a work is not made by Kafka, but shares enough similiarities to evoke that comparison.
I mean, what you're saying is correct in some ways but I never said that there aren't commonalities or tropes-because there are-only that a manga can't suddenly become a seinen because it pushes limits or expectations of shonen manga. Yeah, of course power ups, transformations, and so on are to be expected out of a battle shonen, for instance, but those things do not make a shonen a shonen. It's merely overlap between what is common in shonen manga and what actually makes a manga a shonen (its demographic).
I guess you could come up with a brand new word, say "frootesque", and reach a consensus with most of the population on what it means If everyone agrees on what it stands for then you can safely use it on whatever it applies (or not, the meaning could still get corrupted) The term "seinen" doesn't belong to you, you shouldn't try to appropriate it, and if it still confuses some people, you shouldn't even use it The point of communication is clarity, which evolves through convention, yet you can still be misunderstood despite curating your words...
@@NINJAMUSHI You did point out the tropes and you raised some great points with language and furigana, but I would go a bit further. I don't think using the words "shonen" and "seinen" solely based on the publisher as the deciding factor for a manga's categorization is not the way to go for a few reasons. While Weekly Shonen Jump might have their target audience right in their name, other magazines do not necessarily do that. For example, is Ultra Jump. While not in their name, Ultra Jump markets itself as Seinen as it is targetted at Young Adults, but at the same time, it picked up Steel Ball Run after it jumped from WSJ. Does that make Steel Ball Run half-shonen, half-seinen? How about the serialization of the Monogatari Series? The first three novels were released in Mephisto, an seinen targetted mystery magazine, then jumped to being a shonen targetted Light Novel series and now the manga adaptation is running in Ultra Jump, which as mentioned, is seinen. Another example, Zombie Land Saga had one series in Cycomi (Shonen) and another in Ultra Jump (Seinen). Going the opposite direction, we got World's End Harem which went from Ultra Jump to Shonen Jump+. Jump+ itself is even an interesting case since its digital medium seems to allow for things that WSJ couldn't do in its print run as mentioned with the example of AyaTri These are just a few examples from series I'm following, but I think you'll be easily able to find more examples. I believe it's more important to get across genre conventions and expectations when using these words. If I recommend an anime to someone, is it more important to use the demographic that the publisher chooses, or what genre convention it might follow more closely? I think this goes above just elevating one's favourite show from being "above being for teens", but just to more easily bring across themes and mood of a property. I don't totally disagree that a lot of people are coping with these terms, but I think the terms should be viewed not only as a demographic but as a genre in itself, too. I also think this is more in-line with how people actually use these words, and I believe the usage of the words is more important than what kind of demographic a property is targetted at.
@@nelisezpasce Yes, that is how frootesque would work then. In fact, that's how all new words enter a language. I do not believe that language is prescriptive but rather descriptive, as is the common trend these days in linguistics. A words meaning is not created by academics or companies, it is a gradual process by everyone that uses language. As such, I find it crazy that you believe that the term seinen belongs to some companies. Language evolves, I agree on that, and it has evolved in such a way that the terms shonen and seinen are not only used as demographics as chosen by publishers, but also as genres to distinguish properties with similiar elements and story beats.
"I don't think using the words "shonen" and "seinen" solely based on the publisher as the deciding factor" That's literally all shonen and seinen are. There's never been a seinen manga in a shonen magazine. Ever. Never will be. If a seinen moved over to a shonen magazine, then future chapters would be shonen. "While Weekly Shonen Jump might have their target audience right in their name, other magazines do not necessarily do that." Does the title of a magazine have to include the demographic? Movies don't have to have "rated R" in the title to be a rated R film, do they? The magazine still has a target demographic, even if it's not in it's name. "it picked up Steel Ball Run after it jumped from WSJ. Does that make Steel Ball Run half-shonen, half-seinen?" Well, not exactly half and half but it is both a shonen and seinen, depending on which magazine the chapters were released in. It is a shonen for precisely 23 chapters and a seinen for the remaining chapters. It isn't that hard. "How about the serialization of the Monogatari Series? The first three novels were released in Mephisto, an seinen targetted mystery magazine, then jumped to being a shonen targetted Light Novel series and now the manga adaptation is running in Ultra Jump, which as mentioned, is seinen." in that instance, the first three volumes are seinen, the remainder of the LN is shonen, and the manga is seinen. Again, not that hard to figure out. It's quite literal. Switching over just means it's targeting a different audience. "Zombie Land Saga had one series in Cycomi (Shonen) and another in Ultra Jump (Seinen). Going the opposite direction, we got World's End Harem which went from Ultra Jump to Shonen Jump+." Well, then those series are both shonen and seinen. Whatever chapters were released as shonen are shonen and whatever chapters were released as seinen are seinen. "Jump+ itself is even an interesting case since its digital medium seems to allow for things that WSJ couldn't do in its print run as mentioned with the example of AyaTri" right, it's a different form of marketing and release but Jump+ is still shonen. Some shonen magazines are going to be more lenient. "I believe it's more important to get across genre conventions and expectations when using these words. If I recommend an anime to someone, is it more important to use the demographic that the publisher chooses, or what genre convention it might follow more closely?" which is why we should only use "shonen" to inform what general age and gender might be interested. Otherwise, beyond that, there's ya know... actual genres to use to inform people? Action, horror, drama, comedy, etc. All of those can be shonen and, thus, it's way more helpful to use those genres when describing what a manga is like. "I think this goes above just elevating one's favourite show from being "above being for teens", but just to more easily bring across themes and mood of a property." again, why use shonen/seinen to do that then? If you wanted to describe CSM, saying it's an action packed, exciting, and dark manga suffices. That would be more than saying its a shonen or seinen if we're looking to communicate what it's all about. "I don't totally disagree that a lot of people are coping with these terms, but I think the terms should be viewed not only as a demographic but as a genre in itself, too. I also think this is more in-line with how people actually use these words, and I believe the usage of the words is more important than what kind of demographic a property is targetted at." nahhhh, I really don't dig that idea. There's other words to use, rather than words that should 100% remain literal. I'm not about to start calling HxH a seinen just to communicate that it's darker than Naruto, instead I'd much rather just say it's a shonen that's darker than average. My biggest complaint with what you're saying is that it puts shonen/seinen into a box in a way that is even more restrictive than magazines. Like, as if shonen must be like X and seinen must be like Y. I dunno, you clearly have a way of looking at it and I really don't agree but that's that I guess.
I got into an argument with a friend and she did destroyed me in the argument given her points at Chainsaw Man being Seinen based on it's contents, while I found Chainsaw Man to be Shounen based on the summary of what the story is suppose to be, battles, comedy, etc. Turns out, Shounen and Seinen are not determined on content, but on who the intended audience is for. What makes s Shounen, Shounen, are the fact it's aimed at an adolescent male demographic if the creator wants to. What makes a Seinen, Seinen is the fact it's aimed at a young adult male audience, if the creator wants it to be aimed at that audience. I also found out today (if it's true) Love is War (I think) or better known as, Kaguya is in fact a Seinen despite how light hearted, romantic it is (supposedly. I will honestly state I never watched it yet to know for sure, but I plan to). So when thinking of the content in Chainsaw Man it's like, yeah I can understand why people see it as more mature than something as like... Naruto. But because I seen Tokyo Tribes 2 before (The first episode definitely left a lasting impression on me), I didn't see Chainsaw Man anywhere NEAR close to that level of maturity, which was how the argument got started before realizing my ignorance on what I was saying. Again, Shounen and Seinen are not genres, they are demographics as I now know.
I feel like after chapter 167 CSM has crossed a boundary in terms of explicit adult material that I've never seen done before in a shonen series. And no, Evangelion is NOT a shonen... Sort of. Yes, it got a manga adaptation in a shonen publication but that specific hospital scene was changed entirely from what happens in the original anime, which was NOT shonen anime. Straight up just showing spooge is something I've only seen done in Seinen series like Punpun and Berserk
I've just read through chainsaw man after watching season 1. It's definitely a shonen. Denji's motivations and influences I'd argue are more realistic to a teenage experience than say Deku or Tanjiro
I looked on Google and apparently JoJo's and Trigun became seinen from being shonen, and also One Punch Man and Tokyo Ghoul are seinen. What seperates shonen and seinen doesn't seem to be a very clear line, if there really is one.
JoJo and Trigun indeed became seinen when they were moved to seinen magazines and Tokyo Ghoul and OPM are seinen because they are/were in seinen magazines. That's as clear of a line as there ever could be
@@NINJAMUSHI I only meant in terms of manga feel bro. I understand the literal distinction of where they are published and to whom they are targeted. I was supporting your arguement.
People have this idea of what a shonen or Seinen is because of the brand of certain magazines that become a brand. I look at the magazines like I do television channels, because that pretty much what they are. You’ll have manga that would fit more in a seinen magazine in a shonen magazine because they want to diversify its palate. Also the language barrier is so true. Like I heard that Harry Potter would be Seinen because of the Kanji used. The Japanese language is one of the hardest languages out there, so it makes sense that it would be lost in translation.
Individual shonen or seinen mangas aren't distinguishable but the overall content of shonen and seinen magazines indeed would be overall quite different.
Its funny you bring up chainsaw man's physical manga as an arguement cause firepunch (which publishes in jump + where chainsaw man part 2, hells paradise, dandadan and spy family is published) has a label for explicit content and a mature rating in the back. Regarding determining whether something is shounen or seinen is cause of marketing isn't a good point. Kaguya sama author, Aka Akasaka, was targeting middle ages woman (or thought that would be who enjoyed it) but it was published in a seinen magazine but everyone uses kaguya sama as an example of non-seinen like manga being a seinen. I've heard that bessatsu magazine that AOT is published in isn't only targeted towards teenagers but also young adults. Which makes more sense cause flowers of evil was also published in that magazine and if you read that you wouldn't be thinking a kid would be watching that. It even had a very small scene of nudity. There ain't no different between shounen and seinen. Or even some josei and shoujo cause the aforemention kaguya sama example and banana fish is a shoujo which really surprised me.
Its easy to see the clear differences between shonen and seinen. pace its slower, themes are more complex (this is hard to explain to a shonen viewer considering a ton of these themes get clearer whan you get older and might be confusing when you are a teen), and sometimes the stakes are so minimal that several times a teenage might not tolerate seinen not because its too graphical or gory, but because its way too boring for a tennager or confusing for one, thats it. Vinland saga might share a ton of shonen tropes howrever Pacifist mentality its something that you can already see on season 2 annoying several people. when thats the entire point for example.
Well i remember searching when i first heard shonen and seinen on google, it said that shonen is for kids and seinen for adults, which makes me disagree, i mean how can you lump spy x family with chainsaw man and attack on titan, tokyo ghouls is seinen and personally i believe attack on titan to be a tad bit more what you would call mature than tokyo ghouls. The thing you failed to memtion is that shonen animes are overall less mature and seinen ones are more mature, so if it would be a bit misleading. Because the term is usually right which makes you trust it but is also wrong at some certain shows.
Spy x Family is in the very same digital magazine as Chainsaw Man, so it's literally "lumped" in by the publisher. This entire comment misunderstands the entire point of shonen and seinen magazines. If a manga is a shonen magazine then that means it is being marketed at teenage boys and seinen means its being marketed at adult men. That is all. This isn't a rating system like P13 or rated R, it's a tool to funnel a manga to the audience best fit for it. That's why tons of seinen manga aren't even graphic or anything, why Devilman is shonen and K-on is seinen. You can say however mature you think AOT is (it really isn't that crazy) but doesn't mean it's seinen. It's still being read and watched by millions of teens, it's primary demographic. It's a shonen. End of story. It's not "usually right" it's always right. I didn't fail to mention anything. Maybe the reason you think shonen are less mature is because you keep excluding manga that are mature and calling them seinen 🤔 🤔 🤔
@@NINJAMUSHI red orca orca force is the hypest song of all time in the series But I must say people really slept on tsa. I prefer that game play than 3 the style the game play was replayable
TSA is personally my favorite in the series (with 1 being right behind it), although the gameplay isn't exactly why. I just thought the game had so much to say, a lot of which stuck with me. I thought about that game for months straight. Plus the music is so damn good
@@NINJAMUSHI I agree . I just wish 3 has some content left in the game like there's so much stuff that was going to happen but suda couldn't due to time constraints and limitations but to me I say I rank the games like this 1.TSA 2.1 3.3 4.2 Not like they are bad it's about what I preferred
Dammit I always thought I would enjoy more Seinen, bc I thought CSM is kinda like that. Turns out, no Seinen at all. Nice bro, you safe me a lot of money.
You can always still check out some seinen! There's tons of great ones to check out if you wanna dip your toes in. Berserk, Dorohedoro, Blade of the Immortal, Vinland Saga, Punpun, etc. Best of luck if you do decide to check out some seinen!
@@NINJAMUSHI Thx for the recommantations. Vinland Saga and Dorohedoro were not my cup of tea (anime only --> dropped after 1 episode) but I am currently reading PunPun, although I don't enjoy it, but it is not a story you should particulary enjoy, I guess and I plan to read it all. Berserk is too expensive here in germany.
@@EleKartoffel yeah, I think at that point you should probably just check out more shonen for the time being then. There are plenty of shonen that are more in line with CSM
@@NINJAMUSHIBut I enjoyed Grand Blue, Parasyte and Kaguya sama. So maybe I should look for specific genres or similar authors insteat of demopraphic...
I don't think you need a ruler to measure the maturity of a work, I mean not only in the field of manga but in the media in general. Stuff Like K-On, Crayon no Shin-Chan, Bonobono and OPM are Seinen but most Western audiences mistake them for Shonen because of the carefree tone that is nowhere near reminiscent of the Classics Seinen Like Berserk or Akira. also Shonen is for Older Childrens not Teenagers Because Japan Doesen't Have a Target Demographic Aimed Exclusively at Teens Audience
CSM is a seinen story with sprinkles of shonen tropes freckled around or atleast that has been my distinction so far It is not entirely a seinen or even a de-construction of shonen, it is just plain Chainsaw Man
No, a seinen story is a story of a manga in seinen magazine. There are lots of shonen with nuanced stories (Fullmetal Alchemist, JoJo part 5, Silver Spoon, A Silent Voice, AoT, etc) and none of those are seinen stories. Plus, there's lots of seinen that are not nuanced or super "mature." Gantz and Hellsing are good examples of really fun but stupid stories, are they shonen stories then? Besides, a lot of CSM is really juvenile and stupid, even if it's a great story. It fits perfectly for teens
@@NINJAMUSHI seinen is a magazine term yes but catered for adults, that's exactly my point. It is tad silly in some of it's approach like a typical shonen but is mostly hiding behind it's seinen exposition Im not stating definitively that it's a shonen or a seinen but a mix of both with their own fundamental tropes rounding it off
I just don't know how CSM is any more catered for adults than other shonen. Is it really so much that adults would like it more than teens? I don't really think so
@@NINJAMUSHI nah nah, I agree with you on the video. I just think people focus to much, it's also worth to mention that mangaka's go almost everywhere and where their stories get accepted can determine the demographic sometimes. like for example bocchi is seinen, or death note is shounen. at this point it just rating for age, it means nothing.
I've never read Chainsaw Man, but from how other people describe it, it sounds like a manga for edgy teenagers) And i think teenagers are in the shounen demographic.
it pretty much is, a "gen z" take of a regular shonen. to anyone who didn´t enjoyed shonens back in the day, might be amazing, but if you have watched bleach. imagine that but add some edgy twist.
Frankly Chainsaw should be a bloody Seinen. Sorry but a normal "shonen" would not feature a lesbian sex scene. I like Shonen but I find it rather ridiculous that titles like Chainsaw man and Dorohedoro and HXH are still considered Shonen despite evidence to the countery. Also maybe try not to sound so fucking condescending next time please
In terms of violence, Devilman was doing even crazier stuff in the 70s, chief, and a 2 page lesbian sex scene that doesn't even show nips is not going to be enough to suddenly bend the reality that CSM was in Weekly Shonen Jump, literally the same magazine as To Love Ru and other popular ecchi manga. Also, Dorohedoro is a seinen (minus one year it was in a shonen magazine). Either way, there's zero "evidence," only inferred traits that you think make something mature. Regardless of what you think, teens eat up CSM and HxH. It's never my intent to be condescending, but I guess it's easy to come across that way when I am 100% right and leave no room for arguement. Manga fans needa stop coping so hard and learn that it's fine to like a shonen because, at the end of the day, who cares if CSM is enjoyable for teens. Shit's still tight
I just now saw your other comment (it got filtered for being offensive) and, even though I approved it, I don't see it anywhere. So Imma reply here. Anyways, how are you going to call me condescending and yet call me an idiot??? Like, one or the other is fine but don't be a hypocrite. Also, when did I ever say CSM wasn't complex??????? You have selective hearing. My only point is that nothing about it is SO complex, profound, or esoteric that teens couldn't understand and appreciate it-NOT THAT IT ISN'T COMPLEX AT ALL. Please, get new ears if you can't even listen to that much. I literally made a 20 minute video about why CSM is one of best and most inventive shonen in recent years, I love CSM. So stop putting words in my mouth only because I don't have Fujimoto's dick as far down my throat as you do. TL;DR just listen for once in your life
So a mature show for you its how sexual it is and how violent, and also how edgy it can be. yeah right, you do know that this are themes that TEENS explore the most and are most interested?. So chainsaw man can be a very "gen z" shonen with an edgy twist. that still makes chainsaw man an "edgy" bleach at best. "Mature themes" are not how sexual and violent a show is, you lack nuance. and also thats literally the view of a shonen viewer or teen "I´m 14 and this is deep"
Seinen vs Shonen always seemed like a weird western thing to me. It always seemed like a weird distinction being made by English-speaking fans who just want to flex their tastes as being better than others…..
It absolutely is used that way in the west, which is unfortunate
That's pretty much it. I don't think most adults actually care about what's a seinen or what's a shonen. A good story is a good story, its target demographic shouldn't matter
And your from?
@@NINJAMUSHI Honestly, it always seemed to be a misunderstanding of what the classifications actually were more than anything else.
Age's back, most of my fellow western weeb's believed that they were classifications of Genre's from the reader's perspective; Rather than the classifications of target demographic from a publishers view which they are.
It seems that this misunderstanding has persisted to the modern day.
Only now, the preconceived misconception is so firmly tooted in western readers that justifications and exceptions to the established dogma are mainly what's argued about.
Publishers and demographics change over time, which is an often overlooked aspect to how it's survived all this time.
It is why there are indeed works that are similar or even less graphic or heavy in "Adult" themed content from years past that such people point to as "Proof" that X shonen allegedly should be in the other classification or vice versa.
To put it another way, the older hard R18+ movies are comparatively pretty tame by most M15+ modern standards.
The content hasn't changed, however the Audiences expectations and view on older content has
CSM is very shonen. 15 years old me would be more relatable with Denji than myself right now.
Absolutely agree
That's wild 24 year old me really relates to denji
Specifically his debt and long time loneliness
I can understand that and it's valid to have those issues. I do hope life gets better for you and things work out. Personally, I'm 25 and in a spot in my life where I'm not really concerned with getting a girl or eating well but instead buying a house and starting a family. I love Denji and his story but can't really relate with him in any meaningful way
@@teensierkitty4214 me too. I'm gonna be 28 in April this year.
As a girl, I wouldn't have related with Denji at 15, and I don't relate to him that much as a 20 y/o, but I do think he's an interesting character to follow. I don't see why it's so important to relate to characters to enjoy something. If the story is good, it doesn't matter that I don't relate to its characters.
It's funny you put dorohedoro for the "shonen != seinen" visual because dorohedoro switched to a shonen magazine during the final arc lol.
Also "Chainsaw man isn't as profound as all these other seinen manga" was completely unneeded when the whole video was you trying to say the only thing that determines shonen vs seinen is it's marketing. Shonen don't have to be any less profound than seinen. Titles like AoT or HxH try to tackle concepts incredibly similar to those in series like berserk. I personally find that AoT, chainsaw man, hunter x hunter, and one piece have more to say than monster, definitely more than Pluto or 20th century boys (but I didn't like 20th century boys because I didn't feel like it had anything to say).
Marketing also doesn't stop a series from being profound. Series targeted towards teens don't have to be not profound, like, teens have the capability to understand literature, they literally have classes on it in school.
There is also a difference in the target age audience for different magazines even within the "shonen" and "seinen" label.
Regardless, what I feel like people usually mean when they say "X isn't really shonen" is "X is not a TRADITIONAL BATTLE shonen." They conflate the demographic shonen with the genre battle shonen, which certainly does exist.
I agree all around, even the big three of Shonen all had profound things to say…
Right, but Dorohedoro was in a shonen magazine for less than a year out of its 18 years of publishing and the magazine cover I used isn't from that time period. Would be the same thing if I used a cover from JoJo parts 1-6 as the shonen example.
Also, I feel like what I was getting at with "the only thing that determines shonen vs seinen is its marketing" is being lost in translation just a little. What I'm saying is that we, the fans, cannot decide whether a manga is shonen or seinen. That is entirely decided on by publishers/magazines. The back half of the video is about whether CSM (or other shonen) should have been in a seinen magazine instead and how, despite it's darker moments, I agree with Shueisha that it's better fit for a younger audience than a seinen audience-in comparison to the seinen I mentioned which were better fit for an older audience. I'm not trying to speak on the whole of shonen in that instance, only that CSM is not so complex, mature, or profound that it would have been a better fit for an older audience. I'm not saying CSM doesn't have dark moments or profound things to say-just that those elements are not so mature that it needed to be seinen.
I do generally agree with what you're saying in the last bit of your comment, though. Thanks for giving your thoughts!
I agree on the CSM point. If you truly believe that the publishers intention is the only factor that determines whether a manga is shonen or seinen, you don't get to then comment on other qualities (like being profound) in regards to them being a shonen or seinen.
big wall of text because I feel like no one is getting what I'm saying in this video
Mega sigh. Did you not see the clear divide in middle of the video at 6:19? "I think I’ve covered all the bases in terms of technicalities. ... What about in a different sense, though? Some people understand that a manga like Hunter x Hunter is a shonen but don’t believe it should be a shonen-instead it should have been in a seinen magazine."
The first half of the video is about whether CSM (or any other shonen) CAN be a seinen (it can't, without changing magazines) and the back half is about if CSM SHOULD have been seinen. My conclusion is that whether it should have been a seinen is a matter of perspective, but I agree with Shueisha's choice to put it in a shonen magazine because of the various reasons listed. Even if the magazine determines if a manga is shonen/seinen, I can still give my perspective if I think it's a good fit for a teenage audience or not-which it is. If CSM was in a seinen magazine, it would be seinen regardless of what I think. But it isn't a seinen and it aligns with what I personally think is appropriate for a teenage audience, especially older teens.
You guys can stroke Fujimoto's dick all you want, but what it says thematically is still fairly straight forward, easily digestible, and relatable to younger people. It says a lot but what it's saying isn't so mature it can't be appreciated by teens. In contrast, I don't think the seinen I mentioned in the video have themes that would be quite so appealing to younger people-certainly not as relatable. Can you name any themes in CSM that a 16 year old couldn't understand? I can certainly name things within, let's just say, Punpun that the average teen would absolutely not understand. Maybe profound wasn't 100% the correct word to use (even though I still think that's true) but what is actually driving me insane is how many people are completely glossing over how I literally said that CSM has a lot to say and has some mature ideas. Not even going to pretend to not be annoyed, CSM fans give me hives
tl;dr I can absolutely say X shonen is a shonen because it's in a shonen magazine and still comment on whether its content is or isn't appropriate for teens by my own standards
@@NINJAMUSHI Okay, I 100% totally agree that CSM isn't nearly as mature or 'profound' or meaningful as Goodnight Punpun. I even agree with your overall point that CSM and all those other series are undoubtedly Shonen as per definition.
But the only thing is that you can't comment on the qualites of two manga with respect to them being shonen or seinen in the same video after taking half the video to explain how the qualities don't have anything to do with them being one of the two.
I feel people usually confuse Shonen and Seinen with the arbitrary rating system (Shonen TVY7-TVPG/TV14 and Seinen TV14-TVMA) used in America and places that use similar ones. It just feels they can't get past the mature/dark/complex = for adults. If we followed these guidelines then stuff like K-on or Kaguya more than likely wouldn't be a seinen. It's always funny seeing people practically demand their teenage boy show/manga be more adult. I'm pretty sure half my favorite list are shonen, and the media's quality shouldn't rely on what magazine they are published in.
there are always going to be mangas that push the boundaries of shounen or seinen since that's just what happens when you separate things into categories. H2O has solid, liquid, and gas forms, but it depends on what temperature it's at to influence which form it takes. different publishers have different "temperatures" they rate mangas at, so something that would be put in the seinen magazine with one publisher could be put in the shounen magazine with another publisher. time can also change the lens a publisher looks at a work through, which could result in them changing the magazine it's in, or result in a manga similar to a seinen from a couple decades ago being put in the shounen magazine. however, the temperature of H2O doesn't change the fact that it's H2O, similar to how the marketing of a manga won't change the content of the manga. focusing on and arguing about what demographic it's marketed to won't change the manga, and honestly it's 1.) pointless and 2.) reductive to the overall conversation surrounding the manga.
Most of it is just a difference of in cultural standards. American marketers and standards and practices departments would NEVER say that Chainsaw Man is for teens.
So to American fans the idea goes that if it couldn’t run right between Naruto and Card Captor Sakura it must a Seinen right? Air times probably have something to do with it. A lot of the big influential shonen had to be played late night. It’s one of the many ways western fans have imported meaning into anime where there isn’t any.
I think the problem is that most people have a different definition of what shonen and seninen is some people use them as descriptors of the content inside of the manga while other people use it as a statement whether or not the publishers believe it is a shonen manga or not.
2:24 to be fair, jojo’s is a weird exception to this whole debacle of shonen vs seinen because it’s both a shonen and a seinen at the same time given that parts 1-6 were in weekly shonen jump and 7 onwards were in ultra jump.
I've heard the jokes about Fujimoto Tatsuki having dirt on the publishers of Jump and blackmailing them into letting him do anything
But now it really makes sense for them to really really really want him working at their label, explicit content is not illegal after all
I'm sure a big movie studio, like Disney for example, would go as far as bending the rules for the sake of their own Chris Nolan
"Oh, PG-13 rating lets you include just 1 F-Bomb? Well, this story needs at least 3, so we'll gladly lobby it hard if needed"
The real nightmare of the shonen seinen distinction is the fact that different people can handle different amount of "mature" content in the media they consume there are some adults who can't handle the violence in a shonen manga and there are some teens that can handle the violence in a manga aimed at adults. If you're going by averages these distinctions make perfect sense.
That's a very fair point to make! I watched/read a good number of seinen as a teen (became a Berserk fan in my mid-teens) but I don't think that applies to everyone.
I’ve been into anime for a while but didn’t become a big manga fan until recently, I’ve been seeing seinen in a lot of comment sections and got so confused I had no idea what that was lol. Thanks for the explanation, great video
Great points about people wanting their beloved content to not be explicitly for kids--not gonna argue about the overall message--but I really think it's reductionist to define a genre by where it's published, even if it is technically accurate. I feel like it's missing the point of the discussion? Like, yes shonen is technically the same as PG-13 in the west, but it would be weird to stop the discussion there, ya know?
Also about Chainsaw Man, it actually DID have content that wasn't published in Shonen Jump for being age-inappropriate--which pokes holes in this whole argument, but again I don't think the technical definition is the most relevant part of the discussion on what makes the difference between seinen and shounen. These things tend to be more nuanced than that
You're screaming into the void, frankly. The demographic based definition of shonen and seinen isn't what people in the west generally use because they don't buy magazines, where something is published is irrelevant to them. Shonen and Seinen are pretty strictly talked about like genres in the west, someone who is asking whether something is a shonen or seinen is trying to derive the nature of the series based on the answer you give them. And I'll tell you if someone asked you for a good seinen and you recommended Bisque Doll they'll probably be confused or upset. I know that using shonen/seinen in that way is far far from perfect and I agree that using "seinen" as a cudgel to beat "shonen" is cringe when it happens, but I feel most of this video is just a big "umm aktchully" to a very wide group of people simply trying to apply a consistent label to the things they enjoy so that they can find more things like it.
I guess my problem with that is I think there's plenty of other ways to find similar manga without distorting the singular words that describe the demographics. If you change the meaning of shonen/seinen in English, then it becomes counterproductive when we want to actually talk about shonen or seinen. If you contort the meaning of shonen/seinen, then there are no single words left to describe it. On the other hand, there's plenty of ways to describe the actual qualities people are intending to describe it. For instance, I think it's far more helpful to call Berserk a dark fantasy than a seinen. That'll lead you to finding something like Claymore, which might be more similar to it than even other seinen like Gantz. I honestly don't even think using seinen as a genre is that helpful because of how there's other genres to describe what a manga is in a better way. Maybe it comes off as um actually but I'd rather that than to feed the tend of being wrong about what shonen/seinen is. I hope people eventually realize this isn't the most helpful way to label things, but time will only tell
@@NINJAMUSHI I completely agree you when it comes to seinen and describing them, that's the way we should go moving forward. I just don't think that this video was pushing that message as it's primary goal, that's all.
Then there's a more complicated issue of "shonen" being short for "battle shonen", which actually is a reasonably defined genre that reliably leads people to similar series, but that's a different discussion.
@@NINJAMUSHI I don't agree with seinen/shonen distinction being useless/having little use. Using seinen/shonen as additional tags is helpful, less helpful than having more specific tags like "dark fantasy", "isekai" but still helpful.
For example if you don't know/don't care manga of what genre or what thematic you want but you want to read something heavy, then searching for seinen manga is justified.
My point is seinen/shonen distinction tells you about nature of the story pretty good, it's not always on point but most of the times it is - so orienting on it is statistically justified
Yeah, I kinda agree that it should just be abolished all together. It’s not relevant.
jeez why are all the comments here essays I could use for my English exams, I just came here because I'm obsessed with Chainsaw Man. Also great video I agree a lot
Yeahhh people really wanna type a dozens reasons to try and bend the rules for some reason. Thank you!
@@NINJAMUSHI S'all good man, i actually really like your chainsaw man content so please make more of it!
No you don't understand, chainsawman is a shoujo manga
I mean if you want to get into labels on whatever magazine manga is released on, then that means Kaguya sama is _technically_ Shounen, which is weird af ngl
It's a seinen, though. Miracle Jump and Weekly Young Jump are both seinen magazines
Bruhhh Kageya feels very shounen romance the whole love is war premise is very fitting and it’s most often compared to death note
@@NINJAMUSHI yeah I meant to say Komi-san but mixed it with Kaguya sama mb
@@NINJAMUSHI It is wild tho that between AoT and Kaguya, it's the latter thats the seinen
bruh, did you not watch the video?💀
Yessss new video!
Ayoo, hope you enjoyed!
This is just arguing semantics. Most of us know that people in the west use Shonen & Seinen to describe genre. Getting angry over it seems silly.
It's semantic, sure, but I only get frustrated with it because incorrectly calling any manga a shonen/seinen then devalues its use as a word. It's like I said in other comments, my problem is that there are other words/genres to more accurately describe what a manga/anime is but there are no other singular words to describe "a manga that is targeted at ____." I can say CSM is an ultra-violent manga and that doesn't take away from "ultra-violent" or any other word, as opposed to calling it a seinen (which pollutes its meaning). If you take away that meaning from shonen/seinen, then there's no other words to replace what they actually which makes describing a manga (especially in an analytical sense) more difficult for no reason. I'm a semantic guy in general, though.
Just shows how petty western readers are that they have to use demographics as labels to show how what they like is more “mature” kek
But Seinen isn’t a defined genre, and shonen can more accurately defined as a battle manga.
Thanks for the video! I didn’t know that was the correct definition. I found your video after starting the CSM2 manga and thinking “jesus, is that really for teenagers?”. So TIL what Shonen and Seinen really means
Glad it helps!!
After I read CSM I was surprised to find out it's labeled as Shounen LOL
And now after watching your video, I see why my views were like this. Great video!
thank you! glad I could help!
Didn't know you made art finna check it out right now
Thank you!!
While i agree with your main point I disagree that chainsaw man doesn't say a lot . Although there isn't as much text as other manga a lot can be interpreted from it, like the themes of taking control of your own life, whether ignorance is truly bliss, if living a safe or risky life is better, etc.
7:42 "[Chainsaw Man is a] great action packed story with a lot to say"
I didn't say it didn't have a lot to say-because it does-just that I don't think anything that it does say is so profoundly mature that it would be better fit for adults, in comparison to a number of my favorite seinen which have more adult-oriented themes. Basically, CSM says a lot but what it's saying is something teens could connect with
@@NINJAMUSHI Oh my bad. I listened to this video at work so i guess i missed that.
No worries lol
You can interpret pretty much anything and make thesis and theories about certain character motives and situations that are open to interpretation and then calling it deep. but this literally the meme "i´m 14 and this is deep", which its where chainsaw man falls.
Great video!
Thanks, Mr President!
i really think this is a product of shounen being about as unhelpful as jrpgs as a way to classify something
dark shounen exist, so do dark seinen, but lighthearted youth type seinen exist too, like kaguya sama or ao ashi,
Very well put
While I agree with your assessment that calling everything a seinen is incorrect and many people might do it to elevate the thing they like away from being "just a kid's show", I think you are incorrect when you say these words are only marketing based.
The word shonen does imply certain genre conventions you would expect. That's why when you say a thing is unusual for shonen, people will understand that i breaks the usual conventions of what is common in these magazines. Let's say someone talks about battle shonen, a genre strongly influenced by the big three and WSJ of the 2000s. Using the word shonen implies certain tropes here and the word is not used solely because of marketing. I believe a good chunk of anime fans do understand that shonen is used as a term for marketing, but a word can evolve and have multiple facets.
There's also the fact that there are things you can and cannot show in a shonen. An ecchi shonen will be different from an ecchi seinen. Heck there even seems to be differences in what you can show in physicals vs. digital magazines like how Ayakashi Triangle got yeeted to Digital a few weeks ago, probably due to being too lewd.
So I think people all in all use the word seinen more in a similiar vein to how people would use Kafkaesque: They do realize a work is not made by Kafka, but shares enough similiarities to evoke that comparison.
I mean, what you're saying is correct in some ways but I never said that there aren't commonalities or tropes-because there are-only that a manga can't suddenly become a seinen because it pushes limits or expectations of shonen manga. Yeah, of course power ups, transformations, and so on are to be expected out of a battle shonen, for instance, but those things do not make a shonen a shonen. It's merely overlap between what is common in shonen manga and what actually makes a manga a shonen (its demographic).
I guess you could come up with a brand new word, say "frootesque", and reach a consensus with most of the population on what it means
If everyone agrees on what it stands for then you can safely use it on whatever it applies (or not, the meaning could still get corrupted)
The term "seinen" doesn't belong to you, you shouldn't try to appropriate it, and if it still confuses some people, you shouldn't even use it
The point of communication is clarity, which evolves through convention, yet you can still be misunderstood despite curating your words...
@@NINJAMUSHI You did point out the tropes and you raised some great points with language and furigana, but I would go a bit further. I don't think using the words "shonen" and "seinen" solely based on the publisher as the deciding factor for a manga's categorization is not the way to go for a few reasons.
While Weekly Shonen Jump might have their target audience right in their name, other magazines do not necessarily do that. For example, is Ultra Jump. While not in their name, Ultra Jump markets itself as Seinen as it is targetted at Young Adults, but at the same time, it picked up Steel Ball Run after it jumped from WSJ. Does that make Steel Ball Run half-shonen, half-seinen? How about the serialization of the Monogatari Series? The first three novels were released in Mephisto, an seinen targetted mystery magazine, then jumped to being a shonen targetted Light Novel series and now the manga adaptation is running in Ultra Jump, which as mentioned, is seinen. Another example, Zombie Land Saga had one series in Cycomi (Shonen) and another in Ultra Jump (Seinen). Going the opposite direction, we got World's End Harem which went from Ultra Jump to Shonen Jump+. Jump+ itself is even an interesting case since its digital medium seems to allow for things that WSJ couldn't do in its print run as mentioned with the example of AyaTri These are just a few examples from series I'm following, but I think you'll be easily able to find more examples.
I believe it's more important to get across genre conventions and expectations when using these words. If I recommend an anime to someone, is it more important to use the demographic that the publisher chooses, or what genre convention it might follow more closely? I think this goes above just elevating one's favourite show from being "above being for teens", but just to more easily bring across themes and mood of a property.
I don't totally disagree that a lot of people are coping with these terms, but I think the terms should be viewed not only as a demographic but as a genre in itself, too. I also think this is more in-line with how people actually use these words, and I believe the usage of the words is more important than what kind of demographic a property is targetted at.
@@nelisezpasce Yes, that is how frootesque would work then. In fact, that's how all new words enter a language. I do not believe that language is prescriptive but rather descriptive, as is the common trend these days in linguistics. A words meaning is not created by academics or companies, it is a gradual process by everyone that uses language. As such, I find it crazy that you believe that the term seinen belongs to some companies.
Language evolves, I agree on that, and it has evolved in such a way that the terms shonen and seinen are not only used as demographics as chosen by publishers, but also as genres to distinguish properties with similiar elements and story beats.
"I don't think using the words "shonen" and "seinen" solely based on the publisher as the deciding factor"
That's literally all shonen and seinen are. There's never been a seinen manga in a shonen magazine. Ever. Never will be. If a seinen moved over to a shonen magazine, then future chapters would be shonen.
"While Weekly Shonen Jump might have their target audience right in their name, other magazines do not necessarily do that."
Does the title of a magazine have to include the demographic? Movies don't have to have "rated R" in the title to be a rated R film, do they? The magazine still has a target demographic, even if it's not in it's name.
"it picked up Steel Ball Run after it jumped from WSJ. Does that make Steel Ball Run half-shonen, half-seinen?"
Well, not exactly half and half but it is both a shonen and seinen, depending on which magazine the chapters were released in. It is a shonen for precisely 23 chapters and a seinen for the remaining chapters. It isn't that hard.
"How about the serialization of the Monogatari Series? The first three novels were released in Mephisto, an seinen targetted mystery magazine, then jumped to being a shonen targetted Light Novel series and now the manga adaptation is running in Ultra Jump, which as mentioned, is seinen."
in that instance, the first three volumes are seinen, the remainder of the LN is shonen, and the manga is seinen. Again, not that hard to figure out. It's quite literal. Switching over just means it's targeting a different audience.
"Zombie Land Saga had one series in Cycomi (Shonen) and another in Ultra Jump (Seinen). Going the opposite direction, we got World's End Harem which went from Ultra Jump to Shonen Jump+."
Well, then those series are both shonen and seinen. Whatever chapters were released as shonen are shonen and whatever chapters were released as seinen are seinen.
"Jump+ itself is even an interesting case since its digital medium seems to allow for things that WSJ couldn't do in its print run as mentioned with the example of AyaTri"
right, it's a different form of marketing and release but Jump+ is still shonen. Some shonen magazines are going to be more lenient.
"I believe it's more important to get across genre conventions and expectations when using these words. If I recommend an anime to someone, is it more important to use the demographic that the publisher chooses, or what genre convention it might follow more closely?"
which is why we should only use "shonen" to inform what general age and gender might be interested. Otherwise, beyond that, there's ya know... actual genres to use to inform people? Action, horror, drama, comedy, etc. All of those can be shonen and, thus, it's way more helpful to use those genres when describing what a manga is like.
"I think this goes above just elevating one's favourite show from being "above being for teens", but just to more easily bring across themes and mood of a property."
again, why use shonen/seinen to do that then? If you wanted to describe CSM, saying it's an action packed, exciting, and dark manga suffices. That would be more than saying its a shonen or seinen if we're looking to communicate what it's all about.
"I don't totally disagree that a lot of people are coping with these terms, but I think the terms should be viewed not only as a demographic but as a genre in itself, too. I also think this is more in-line with how people actually use these words, and I believe the usage of the words is more important than what kind of demographic a property is targetted at."
nahhhh, I really don't dig that idea. There's other words to use, rather than words that should 100% remain literal. I'm not about to start calling HxH a seinen just to communicate that it's darker than Naruto, instead I'd much rather just say it's a shonen that's darker than average.
My biggest complaint with what you're saying is that it puts shonen/seinen into a box in a way that is even more restrictive than magazines. Like, as if shonen must be like X and seinen must be like Y. I dunno, you clearly have a way of looking at it and I really don't agree but that's that I guess.
I got into an argument with a friend and she did destroyed me in the argument given her points at Chainsaw Man being Seinen based on it's contents, while I found Chainsaw Man to be Shounen based on the summary of what the story is suppose to be, battles, comedy, etc. Turns out, Shounen and Seinen are not determined on content, but on who the intended audience is for. What makes s Shounen, Shounen, are the fact it's aimed at an adolescent male demographic if the creator wants to. What makes a Seinen, Seinen is the fact it's aimed at a young adult male audience, if the creator wants it to be aimed at that audience. I also found out today (if it's true) Love is War (I think) or better known as, Kaguya is in fact a Seinen despite how light hearted, romantic it is (supposedly. I will honestly state I never watched it yet to know for sure, but I plan to).
So when thinking of the content in Chainsaw Man it's like, yeah I can understand why people see it as more mature than something as like... Naruto. But because I seen Tokyo Tribes 2 before (The first episode definitely left a lasting impression on me), I didn't see Chainsaw Man anywhere NEAR close to that level of maturity, which was how the argument got started before realizing my ignorance on what I was saying. Again, Shounen and Seinen are not genres, they are demographics as I now know.
So you saying some corpo decided its shounen, so it's shounen?
I mean, a publisher isn't "some corpo" but, in essence, yes. Because a publisher decided to publish a manga in a shonen magazine, it is shonen.
That’s how genres work buddy
Thank you.
You are welcome.
I feel like after chapter 167 CSM has crossed a boundary in terms of explicit adult material that I've never seen done before in a shonen series. And no, Evangelion is NOT a shonen... Sort of. Yes, it got a manga adaptation in a shonen publication but that specific hospital scene was changed entirely from what happens in the original anime, which was NOT shonen anime. Straight up just showing spooge is something I've only seen done in Seinen series like Punpun and Berserk
I've just read through chainsaw man after watching season 1. It's definitely a shonen. Denji's motivations and influences I'd argue are more realistic to a teenage experience than say Deku or Tanjiro
I looked on Google and apparently JoJo's and Trigun became seinen from being shonen, and also One Punch Man and Tokyo Ghoul are seinen. What seperates shonen and seinen doesn't seem to be a very clear line, if there really is one.
JoJo and Trigun indeed became seinen when they were moved to seinen magazines and Tokyo Ghoul and OPM are seinen because they are/were in seinen magazines. That's as clear of a line as there ever could be
@@NINJAMUSHI I only meant in terms of manga feel bro. I understand the literal distinction of where they are published and to whom they are targeted. I was supporting your arguement.
@@SpaceLemon. in that case, yeah. in terms of "feel" it's really only overlapping tropes and cliches, no clear separation
Geart video 👍
Thank you!
People have this idea of what a shonen or Seinen is because of the brand of certain magazines that become a brand. I look at the magazines like I do television channels, because that pretty much what they are. You’ll have manga that would fit more in a seinen magazine in a shonen magazine because they want to diversify its palate. Also the language barrier is so true. Like I heard that Harry Potter would be Seinen because of the Kanji used. The Japanese language is one of the hardest languages out there, so it makes sense that it would be lost in translation.
I just read man .
Individual shonen or seinen mangas aren't distinguishable but the overall content of shonen and seinen magazines indeed would be overall quite different.
Its funny you bring up chainsaw man's physical manga as an arguement cause firepunch (which publishes in jump + where chainsaw man part 2, hells paradise, dandadan and spy family is published) has a label for explicit content and a mature rating in the back.
Regarding determining whether something is shounen or seinen is cause of marketing isn't a good point. Kaguya sama author, Aka Akasaka, was targeting middle ages woman (or thought that would be who enjoyed it) but it was published in a seinen magazine but everyone uses kaguya sama as an example of non-seinen like manga being a seinen.
I've heard that bessatsu magazine that AOT is published in isn't only targeted towards teenagers but also young adults. Which makes more sense cause flowers of evil was also published in that magazine and if you read that you wouldn't be thinking a kid would be watching that. It even had a very small scene of nudity.
There ain't no different between shounen and seinen. Or even some josei and shoujo cause the aforemention kaguya sama example and banana fish is a shoujo which really surprised me.
How is it surprising Banana Fish is a shojo. Isn’t it about a bunch of Gay dudes in New York?
It’s not a rating sorta a gengre
Its easy to see the clear differences between shonen and seinen. pace its slower, themes are more complex (this is hard to explain to a shonen viewer considering a ton of these themes get clearer whan you get older and might be confusing when you are a teen), and sometimes the stakes are so minimal that several times a teenage might not tolerate seinen not because its too graphical or gory, but because its way too boring for a tennager or confusing for one, thats it. Vinland saga might share a ton of shonen tropes howrever Pacifist mentality its something that you can already see on season 2 annoying several people. when thats the entire point for example.
And pacifism hasn’t been used in Shonen?
@@thomasffrench3639 as a superficial message. Sure. As an actual ideology that moves the manga. No.
Shonen just follows Shonen tropes.
Well i remember searching when i first heard shonen and seinen on google, it said that shonen is for kids and seinen for adults, which makes me disagree, i mean how can you lump spy x family with chainsaw man and attack on titan, tokyo ghouls is seinen and personally i believe attack on titan to be a tad bit more what you would call mature than tokyo ghouls.
The thing you failed to memtion is that shonen animes are overall less mature and seinen ones are more mature, so if it would be a bit misleading. Because the term is usually right which makes you trust it but is also wrong at some certain shows.
Spy x Family is in the very same digital magazine as Chainsaw Man, so it's literally "lumped" in by the publisher.
This entire comment misunderstands the entire point of shonen and seinen magazines. If a manga is a shonen magazine then that means it is being marketed at teenage boys and seinen means its being marketed at adult men. That is all. This isn't a rating system like P13 or rated R, it's a tool to funnel a manga to the audience best fit for it. That's why tons of seinen manga aren't even graphic or anything, why Devilman is shonen and K-on is seinen. You can say however mature you think AOT is (it really isn't that crazy) but doesn't mean it's seinen. It's still being read and watched by millions of teens, it's primary demographic. It's a shonen. End of story. It's not "usually right" it's always right.
I didn't fail to mention anything. Maybe the reason you think shonen are less mature is because you keep excluding manga that are mature and calling them seinen 🤔 🤔 🤔
Liked the video you did a really good job
Thank you!!
Is Death Note a shonen?
Yup. Weekly Shonen Jump, right alongside the big 3 and friends
It's shonen. There. End of discussion.
HAHA I HEARD SOME OF NO MORE HEROS 3 MUSIC
YOU SIR ARE CULTURED
I tend to use No More Heroes music in all my videos, it slaps haha
@@NINJAMUSHI red orca orca force is the hypest song of all time in the series
But I must say people really slept on tsa. I prefer that game play than 3 the style the game play was replayable
TSA is personally my favorite in the series (with 1 being right behind it), although the gameplay isn't exactly why. I just thought the game had so much to say, a lot of which stuck with me. I thought about that game for months straight. Plus the music is so damn good
@@NINJAMUSHI I agree . I just wish 3 has some content left in the game like there's so much stuff that was going to happen but suda couldn't due to time constraints and limitations but to me I say I rank the games like this
1.TSA
2.1
3.3
4.2
Not like they are bad it's about what I preferred
Dammit I always thought I would enjoy more Seinen, bc I thought CSM is kinda like that. Turns out, no Seinen at all. Nice bro, you safe me a lot of money.
You can always still check out some seinen! There's tons of great ones to check out if you wanna dip your toes in. Berserk, Dorohedoro, Blade of the Immortal, Vinland Saga, Punpun, etc. Best of luck if you do decide to check out some seinen!
@@NINJAMUSHI Thx for the recommantations. Vinland Saga and Dorohedoro were not my cup of tea (anime only --> dropped after 1 episode) but I am currently reading PunPun, although I don't enjoy it, but it is not a story you should particulary enjoy, I guess and I plan to read it all. Berserk is too expensive here in germany.
@@EleKartoffel yeah, I think at that point you should probably just check out more shonen for the time being then. There are plenty of shonen that are more in line with CSM
@@NINJAMUSHIBut I enjoyed Grand Blue, Parasyte and Kaguya sama. So maybe I should look for specific genres or similar authors insteat of demopraphic...
I don't think you need a ruler to measure the maturity of a work, I mean not only in the field of manga but in the media in general. Stuff Like K-On, Crayon no Shin-Chan, Bonobono and OPM are Seinen but most Western audiences mistake them for Shonen because of the carefree tone that is nowhere near reminiscent of the Classics Seinen Like Berserk or Akira. also Shonen is for Older Childrens not Teenagers Because Japan Doesen't Have a Target Demographic Aimed Exclusively at Teens Audience
The problem is that you act like adults only like dark media.
Ayyy
Ayooo
@@NINJAMUSHI :)
Hello mushi can you make a video about the manga plus Competition
Uhhh, that's not something I'm currently looking into nor am I too informed on but I'm not opposed to it
One punch man is a seinen and chainsaw a shonen. Those names means nothing for me and they aren't important to target the audiences.
They seem to work well in Japan. It’s just that the English speaking audience doesn’t understand what a comic anthology is.
Devilman is a Shonen
yup, indeed it is
Got it! Vagabond is my favorite Shonen!
Fire punch by tatsuki fujimoto
Is also a Shonen
Indeed
CSM is a seinen story with sprinkles of shonen tropes freckled around or atleast that has been my distinction so far
It is not entirely a seinen or even a de-construction of shonen, it is just plain Chainsaw Man
What is a seinen story?
@@NINJAMUSHI a more mature story with nuanced approach
No, a seinen story is a story of a manga in seinen magazine. There are lots of shonen with nuanced stories (Fullmetal Alchemist, JoJo part 5, Silver Spoon, A Silent Voice, AoT, etc) and none of those are seinen stories. Plus, there's lots of seinen that are not nuanced or super "mature." Gantz and Hellsing are good examples of really fun but stupid stories, are they shonen stories then?
Besides, a lot of CSM is really juvenile and stupid, even if it's a great story. It fits perfectly for teens
@@NINJAMUSHI seinen is a magazine term yes but catered for adults, that's exactly my point. It is tad silly in some of it's approach like a typical shonen but is mostly hiding behind it's seinen exposition
Im not stating definitively that it's a shonen or a seinen but a mix of both with their own fundamental tropes rounding it off
I just don't know how CSM is any more catered for adults than other shonen. Is it really so much that adults would like it more than teens? I don't really think so
shounen is not even a genre. just a demographic.
Yup, hence why I didn't call it a genre at any point (unless specifically I called battle shonen a genre, don't remember)
@@NINJAMUSHI nah nah, I agree with you on the video. I just think people focus to much, it's also worth to mention that mangaka's go almost everywhere and where their stories get accepted can determine the demographic sometimes. like for example bocchi is seinen, or death note is shounen. at this point it just rating for age, it means nothing.
I've never read Chainsaw Man, but from how other people describe it, it sounds like a manga for edgy teenagers) And i think teenagers are in the shounen demographic.
Read it then, so you can… ya know actually judge it fairly
@@jawg0 i'll watch it.
Older Kids as Well but not Formed Teens or Younger Kids
it pretty much is, a "gen z" take of a regular shonen. to anyone who didn´t enjoyed shonens back in the day, might be amazing, but if you have watched bleach. imagine that but add some edgy twist.
Lol you’re severely underestimating it… it’s way deeper than most seinen i’ve read
Frankly Chainsaw should be a bloody Seinen. Sorry but a normal "shonen" would not feature a lesbian sex scene. I like Shonen but I find it rather ridiculous that titles like Chainsaw man and Dorohedoro and HXH are still considered Shonen despite evidence to the countery. Also maybe try not to sound so fucking condescending next time please
In terms of violence, Devilman was doing even crazier stuff in the 70s, chief, and a 2 page lesbian sex scene that doesn't even show nips is not going to be enough to suddenly bend the reality that CSM was in Weekly Shonen Jump, literally the same magazine as To Love Ru and other popular ecchi manga. Also, Dorohedoro is a seinen (minus one year it was in a shonen magazine). Either way, there's zero "evidence," only inferred traits that you think make something mature. Regardless of what you think, teens eat up CSM and HxH. It's never my intent to be condescending, but I guess it's easy to come across that way when I am 100% right and leave no room for arguement. Manga fans needa stop coping so hard and learn that it's fine to like a shonen because, at the end of the day, who cares if CSM is enjoyable for teens. Shit's still tight
I just now saw your other comment (it got filtered for being offensive) and, even though I approved it, I don't see it anywhere. So Imma reply here. Anyways, how are you going to call me condescending and yet call me an idiot??? Like, one or the other is fine but don't be a hypocrite. Also, when did I ever say CSM wasn't complex??????? You have selective hearing. My only point is that nothing about it is SO complex, profound, or esoteric that teens couldn't understand and appreciate it-NOT THAT IT ISN'T COMPLEX AT ALL. Please, get new ears if you can't even listen to that much. I literally made a 20 minute video about why CSM is one of best and most inventive shonen in recent years, I love CSM. So stop putting words in my mouth only because I don't have Fujimoto's dick as far down my throat as you do.
TL;DR just listen for once in your life
So a mature show for you its how sexual it is and how violent, and also how edgy it can be. yeah right, you do know that this are themes that TEENS explore the most and are most interested?. So chainsaw man can be a very "gen z" shonen with an edgy twist. that still makes chainsaw man an "edgy" bleach at best.
"Mature themes" are not how sexual and violent a show is, you lack nuance. and also thats literally the view of a shonen viewer or teen "I´m 14 and this is deep"
There is not evidence to the contrary. Chainsaw Man is the most teenager manga of all time besides Bleach.