America to blame for Tejas delay? | In Our Defence, S02, Ep 31
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- #Tejas #TejasMk1 #TejasMK1A #IAF #Squadrons #HAL #Podcasts #InOurDefencePodcast #ShivAroor #indiatodaywcmatchhighlights
83 Tejas Mk-1A aircraft are awaiting American F404 engines, causing a 9-month delay and uncertainty over the indigenous fighter aircraft program. With rising concerns over delays, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) aims to deliver the first aircraft by August 15.
Tejas Mark 1A program is a pivotal project for the IAF.
But why the delay? Who is to blame?
Host Dev Goswami and defence expert Shiv Aroor explain how these delays stem from production bottlenecks, certification issues, and a U.S. angle affecting the delivery of GE F404 engines-essential components for these jets. The hosts discuss the impact on the IAF, which urgently needs these jets due to its depleting squadron strength and the imminent phasing out of MiG 21 squadrons.
The duo also ponders whether "jugaad"-India's frugal innovation-suits defence, sharing when it's beneficial and when it falls short.
This and more in the 31st episode of In Our Defence.
Please tune in and share your thoughts at pods@indiatoday.com or text us at 8588966996!
Watch!
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India need to diversify their engine suppliers! Can't depend on only one company! I love this podcast. Shiv is very knowledgeable and very frank. I would like to see more episodes on what india doing space technology.
IAF, govt and HAL have no contingency plan. ☠️
Exactly !
It appears that it's either F404/414 or it's a grounded project.
The thing is, is it really zero backup-engine plan, or is such a backup plan under wraps.
There are never engine backup plans by anyone
Its not a plug and fix item, it costs millions to integrate and certify engines to a platform @@aryaman05
I wait for this day every week bhailog. ❤
Regarding the "reserve engine", it is normal in aircraft development worldwide for prototypes to use an existing engine, while a new engine is being developed with the aircraft falling back to the existing engine if the new engine fails to meet requirements. Failures and delays in engine development is common, and in countries which have a lot of expertise in aero-engine development this is accepted. In the case of Tejas, the F404 would have been used until the first engine replacement was due and then replaced by the Kaveri. The delay in the Tejas programme was due to the sanctions by the US and western countries in the wake of the Pokran nuclear tests, which nobody expected (not the IAF, not HAL, not DRDO, and not the procurement teams). The delay was caused by the fact that there was NO engine for Tejas, and it was some time before the Indian government was confident enough to rely on engines from the US. The wariness of the government over the F414 engines over ToT and continuation with the original Kavari development is a sign that the Indian government is wary of US and western sanctions again in the wake of US threats of possible sanctions recently over trade with Russia, and who can blame them given what has repeatedly happened in recent years. One cannot presume that something like what happened in terms of sanctions will not happen again - only the government of India knows the potential risks. Therefore a prototype engine which is also a fallback engine, and an indigenous engine (not a reserve engine) as adopted in the west should be what India follows.
Everything has a cost. Obviously, the Amercians are not happy with us hobnobbing with Russia. Its a no-brainer.
America is silent about protests in pakistan
Disappointed with rejection of f16, &f22?
@@andyganja Ukraine wants to join NATO, but everything has a cost. It's working for both sides.
America is hobnobbing with pakistan and hobnobbed with china in past... the US is never reliable. We should never push away the russians or other partners. The US can like it or lump it.
This delay is increasingly looking like USA backstabbing INDIA
Why to blame usa when india itself failed to develop even a single jet engine 😂
Shame on indian engeeniers😂😂
@@xijinping9024 we are paying for it , it’s not free . Producing everything in Indian is a stupid narrative of British congress agents
@@shovon9412 says a trans
It is not usa backstabbing it us putting a big rock on our legs
Backstabbing? Are you dumb? India tried assassinating American citizens on American soil. India is lucky USA even looks at it lol.
Extremely foolish to depend on USA for engines. DRDO must speed up. TATA and Leyland who can not design diesel engines are also not the choice
I refuse to believe there is no geopolitics that is hindering US from supplying the engines.
If I remember correctly, US renegged on its help on DRDO's High altitude test facility that came with c17 deal.
They're clearly trying to hinder India
The GE 404 is a legacy engine that is hardly used by newer planes anymore. F18 hornet is the only notable one in addition to a bunch of trainers. And the f18 is retiring.
That is not accurate. While the F/A-18A/C has retired from the US Navy, the US Marine Corps, Canada,Finland,Switzerland,Spain and the Royal Malaysian Air Force continue to use the Hornet and will for the next ten years while the F/A-50,JAS-39E and very awful T-7A all make use of the GE-F404.
@@00calvinlee00 which part of what I said contradicts with your take?
@@NCM-xy8ow With the T-50s,F/A-50s and JAS-39s continuing to get orders, there are many GE-F404s in demand. I have now idea why GE is causing an issue as they should honor their contract agreement. India has many options as far as platforms and GE isn't the only producer of advanced Turbofan engines. The F404 and F414 are still in production.
America is to be blamed for Tejas' delay seriously who stopped India from developing its own better engine, are we lazy or don't have enough talent to work on it or are we really serious about making engine? Everyone can see the progress of the Kaveri engine and how it is going. It is us only to blame.
Glad I found this channel. Very interesting thoughts on the Indian Procurement. Is India happy with the P-8,the C-17 and the Rafale? Of course the MiG-21 is a light weight Interceptor which aircraft for aircraft would not be replaced by aircraft like the Rafale mostly due to cost and Doctrine. The Tejas seems to be dealing with issues like the F-35.
The Kaveri engine is not the best fighter engine, but at the least we can build the HLFT-42 around the Kaveri.
Love the no-nonsense, frank, and detailed upto date assessment.
Too much bullshit, HAL is just an integrator, infact its wings are made by L&T, some parts are made by TATA, ... etc
Tejas design is made by ADA drdo
HAL except integration and flight testing does not do much.
Very true! Even the radar N fly by wire is also imported.
That is how aircrafts are made. Do you believe General Dynamics manufactures their aircraft from scratch and owns the supply chains for all of their components? This is the danger of democracy. People talking passionately about things they know nothing about.
Most aircraft manfacturers source their sub-assemblies ( small and large) from their suppliers.
I've watched this pod when it used to get below 1k views
I feel strangely proud now that you guys are gathering more eyes
Possible conspiracy theory I am promoting:
US military industrial complex deliberately delayed GE Engines to create anxiety on delivery, and the Lockheed Martin CEO immediately meets Modi after to close the F21 deal for MRFA.
Tik tok, like a clock
TATA's , L&T, Mahindra's & Adani Defence should be encouraged to partner Lockheed Martin and Boieng to build Fighter Aircrafts or Dassault and give alternatives. Kaveri engine development should be high priority. DRDO shouldn't ve put it egg in one basket. M88 engine should also have been considered for Tejas as backup. GE should be penalised for the delay.
No problem. China & Pak will wait until our HAL manufactures it's engine and fit it in Tejas Mark-1A. They waited decades of time and they will wait another decade until we get our jets ready. They are good neighbors and they'll understand our technical delays. Don't worry HAL, take your own time. There is no hurry, take few more decades.
Welcome to the world of defense procurement. A project managers goal is to balance cost schedule and performance… so pick any two.
There are never engine backup plans by anyone
Its not a plug and fix item, it costs millions to integrate and certify engines to a platform
You should be discussing how kota was treated for developing Tejas .
HAL, a experienced aircraft manufacturer, would surely have an alternative non-US engine in their contingency plans.
A very good podcast. Just keep it real guys. Do not start doing BS that other media channel are doing. Please make sure only to comment on things which are ok in public domain. National security is utmost priority. Stay away from woke journalism. I m Indian living in US can certainly can feel the pain that still we are not able to make our own jet engines. But boy o boy its one of the hardest thing to achieve. There only handful nations who has achieved this art. Despite having all the challenges we dis bit give up and still working on it. Kudos to the people who are still putting efforts. We will succeed very soon. There is no other option. Cant rely on anyone. Jai hind 🇮🇳🫡
Please continue making these podcast, we would like to open conversation around accountability of IA, IAF, DRDO and ADA/HAL....
Yes, for diversion of engine to other countries. India should ask for TOT of the engine.
like they are ready for TOT 😄
@@prasadsawant12 Yes, they will do that sooner than later. They need India more than we need them.
Shiv was talking about "know how" in context of jet engines. Any amount of "know how" wouldn't help one to design a new engine. What you need is "know why". You will get " know why" when you design, develop, test & fail with your own engine. It is very easy to blame GTRE about "failure" of Kaveri engines. GTRE was working with a shoestring budget. They don't have their own test bed. They had to lug engines to Russia for testing. It was criminal on part of governments(both NDA & UPA) to not fund GTRE Governments thought so called "strategic partnership" would be a short cut for something as critical as engines. US is NOT a trustworthy ally. They sabotaged Lavi fighter jet program of their closest ally Israel. They sabotaged LCA in aftermath of Pokharan nuclear tests. They confiscated the entire CLAW software for LCA that was undergoing tests in US. We had to redevelop everything from memory. Yet we in our infinite wisdom thought that US would be a trustworthy partner for LCA MK1 & MK2 engines. They didn't learn lessons when US denied us vaccine APIs(that they didn't need) in the midst of COVID epidemic. I am pessimistic about the prospects of LCA. It will be yet another failure of Indian aviation pretty much like HAL Marut. I will only blame our decision makers to let them be fooled by kumbhaya of strategic partnership with USA. They will NEVER learn. The governments of 90s kept funding ISRO's cryogenic engines. They didn't stop when US arm twisted Yeltsin to stop supply of cryogenic engines to India. The biggest irony is that then Senator Biden played a pivotal role in sabotaging ISRO Glavcosmos deal. Now GE HAL engine deal is put to pasture under President Biden. Too much of a coincidence. No?
Hi @in our defence podcast team can you please do an episode on Kaveri engine and its progress
Blame it on America for not having engines. But won't support Indian equipment that is already made here by Tata, Mahindra, Kalyani, Bharat Forge. And then wonder why the private sector doesn't take part in building a military industrial complex in India. 😅
What's funny is this chap Dev or whatever his name is. It's quite amazing to see how less read he is on military issues, such a lack of basic knowledge, 'what's ADA, rail picket on Sig Saur rifles' and he does a podcast of defence! Mind blowing act he has to put with Shiv
If he was to be so well read on the subject, then there is no need for a Shiv on this podcast, Dev is doing a fantastic job getting the best out of Shiv. They cover most angles well..and at the end of the day they are not AI fed robots, they are trying to bring a point of view.
@@missiontopray I'm talking about the basic knowledge when you talk about the subject or even interview as it is the case here...knowing ADA or rail picketing for additional equipments in Sig Saur rifles aren't like becoming a subject expert...so yeah, point taken but doesn't fit in here too well
Bangali mindset is a langda mindset.. langda thinkers think they know all.. but they only deliver shitty outcomes!!
How did the koreans get their ge f404 engines ok time. Though it might be a different variant.. ni supply chain issues for the koreans.
Koreans got 100% ToT for the GE-F404 engines.
They got 100 % TOT and established local supply chains
Jugar is responding to uncertainties and surprises also. Any conflict can throw up unanticipated situations. Check Ukraine war, chk Hamas was. All are throwing up surprises and also creative jugars. Jugars are akin to creativity on the go. Without those winning wars would be impossible
American have released that by supplying 404 & 414 engines they shot in their own foot. They want to phase out F16 manufacturing and use that facility for next Gen aircraft but they also want to keep F16 in service, so ideally they want to shift F16 facility to India in form of F21 the upgrade of F16 but Tejas would be of same or similar capabilities.
Now taking into consideration the intrest of both parties a middle golden path.
Baniagiri doesn't gel with defence equipment and its requirements.
Make a Video Regarding Equipment of the Indian armed force infantry
Scopes, Night Vision, Laser why not many advance rifles are bought for normal soldiers. Why do majority of the rifles don't have scopes even though prices of scope are not that high
i really wait for your podcast
Please do an episode on the border infra being built and the strategic importance of it.
Waiting for the last moment for an aircraft in development for 20 years. It was well known that the existing engine was not upto the requirements, yet we waited till the last minute to order engines. There are alway hiccups and a smart organization plans for hiccups.
I like the no nonsense talkshow and more realistic nature of it. Best wishes.
They forget to mention that Kaveri jet engine programme have never got the required support from the Govt. of those days. They mentioned once in heir discussion that engine were taken to Russia for high altitude test with IL 76 test aircraft. like this, number of this type of test facilities were required to be built inside India for speedier and effective development & that needs huge fund to be released by the Govt & that never happened. Compere to other successful engine development programme of France, even China. How huge fund they had release for their engine development process. And ours, compere nothing in front of them.
This is like "ghar meh ata nehi aap butter nun ki chahat rakh rahe ho". Every time you have to test, you are depending on the availability of foreign infrastructure, who by the way may be your competitor! Kaberi programme is also victim of world wide sanction after our Nuclear tests during 1998. Mention all this also.
Make separate video on jrt engine technology
Who is the guy who is sitting opposite Shiv Aroor in this Podcast and what is his experience in the Aeronautical Line and what are his qualifications? He appears to be talking without making any contribution to the Subject?
Inside should focus fully on making jet engines for fighters as well as commercial
It is really surprising that S. Korea that had no Defence Industry in 1990, today out competes Indian PSUs in foreign military sales. Might be interesting to learn how many "Managers" in PSUs were demoted of fired after spending crores on the Kaveri Project that is an abject failure.
Great podcast. Can you guys discuss a combination of two topics that I am passionate about - military and human resource development?
Assuming the Agnipath model is going to stay, can you discuss what skills the Agniveers coming out of military can bring to the private sector? Some are obvious (e.g. aircraft maintenance, Signals, EME, etc.), but some others are not so obvious (e.g. infantry and artillery).
Too much focus is on getting these guys into CAPFs, but I feel we may be missing a trick by not planning to use their skills in the real economy.
Do you know what the military and government are thinking about leveraging Agniveers in private sector?
depending on US alone for engines for tejas has been disastrous for India. It is surprising that India chose to depend on US FOR LCA, NOT WITHSTANDING sanctions imposed from time to time.The after-Pokharan relationship apparently was not taken seriously.Planning Indigenous fighter aircraft without assured and timely availability of proper engines is the biggest mistake. Kaveri has been the 'mirage' for LCA. other will-o-wisp!
How simple, sweet, rewarding and easy to buy aircraft , why re- invent the wheel?
Build 3-4 large suppliers for Airforce like Navy has done. It has Mazgaon Dock Ltd, Cochin Shipyard, L&T, Garden Reach Workshop, Hindustan Shipyard. They compete for the orders from Navy. Airforce should have choice like Navy so it can choose builders. This will force builders to step up.
Could also include specification while taking about aircraft or engine as it's very hard to imagine what it can do or not like Ge404 has 90kn thrust but other engine has 70kn
We can't afford to just depend on HAL. Private sector has to come up. Close the Mirage 2000 deal with Qatar asap.
This is defo political USA is showing India cost of trying to be independent...it's too much of a coincidence...Modi will sign Rafale now for certain
Engine with TOT sounds good but not easy. Those who kept our borders without roads or connectivity shouldn't be discussed at all.
Kaveri engine program is still going on.
Can tejas use russian or french engines?
Please increase the frequency of these episodes
About time Bharat looks at Grance or Russia or so for second source to power Tejas project.
So it explans the begining of HAL stock market coming down.
Not easy its better we try to improve hal , during conflicts we cant depend on others to service our aircraft and already hal handles most of the fighter jets
Tejas was envisioned to replace Mig 21. The Air Force did not want Tejas Mk II at the start.
India has to run a competition among all engineering colleges to develop and design a jet engine, all designs be developed? Once fone mass production in collaboration with many interested contractors like mahindra, tata hgodrej, tvs group, and eventually vibilisnbrnhines for supplying to comac, mc1
Solid discussion.
Indian incompetence is on display on the Kaveri project
HAL & IAF are like Siamese twins.
Privitse GTRE as early as possible give A FREEHAND TO THE WINNER THEY WILL GIVE ENGINE FOR TEJAS EVEN FOR COMERCIAL PLANES WITH IN two years
The Indian Government almost always orders on a miserly basis all critical equipments. This is History and hasn't changed for India.
Shiv 12 ghante pehle DD chanel per Kaveri Engine ke bare main bataya gaya hai ki yeh aape final stage main inter ker gai hai.kaha gaya "Testing result are" very promising"
Finally Shiv aap se janana chhate hai ? Conversation on Kaveri.
Is Tejas MK1A is made in India or assembled in India?
Engine from USA is the sole of the jet. Then comes Israel radar.
One of my friend joined gtre a
Nd retired after that when we met His expence in gtre he just SAID i jond to work but irecived pay check every month desperatly i regret joining ifelt how impotent our psus
Yeah right, it's the fault of supply chain issues and not of the echo system running GE and other western companies, and certainly not a political issue at all.
Once again he proved who funds and employs him(LM/boeing/usa)
He has become their mouth piece, telling us that this is simply a supply chain issue & that is all.
What's easier, buying an engine or a fighter?
Fighter
They are putting spare engines in those planes
*Lack of Engines killed Marut*
*Tejas is just Marut 2.0*
Wasn't it indigeneous???
DRDO/ADA needs more professional product manager and project managers for quality control, risk management, contingency plan, and timely delivery.
Seriously?
What did the powers that be expect?
Why not work with Safran, Rolls Royce?
Keep this podcast going
Stop blaming everyone and keep making the aircraft! Qualify the aircraft with an existing engine and then put it on standby until the engines arrive. Worst case scenario: lease the engines from one of the quad nations for a year.
Lease the engines from any of the countries that operates the F/A-18 C/D. I’m sure there is a compensation for delays in the G.E. deal . Use those funds for the lease.
@@adm7038lease the engines? Dude 😂
@@hiteshadhikari Dude, aero engines can be swapped out in a couple of hours and multiple engines are maintained for each aircraft. Most civil airlines lease their aircraft and their engines. If we really want to see our Tejas Mk1A aircraft operational, we need to lease suitable GE F404 engines from large operators like USN or RCAF till we get our engines delivered. We can’t make excuses to stop or slow down manufacturing the airframe for any reason.
I don't understand why the govt is thinking again for MMRCA 2 for procurement of 114 multi role fighters when we already have inducted 36 Rafael and still can directly go for procuring the same in continuation of MMRCA 1 program and second what the issue with these stop gap arrangements of procuring second hand mirages from Qtar or going in for additional mig 29 fighters and SU 30 from Russia. It's time for the government to introspect on these issues as well.
Bhai Dev - yeh do not cross any boundaries without passport wala , leaving remark ka koi kissa ho toh batana .. kinda curious is it like your “peace - mkbhd “ remark .. mostly yes but want the masala behind the remark ! 😀😃😀
Should have studied m88 engine of rafale for Tejas since ge404 has similar power
Teja ka urr gaya bheja.. 😂😂😂
If HAL comes up with a rights issie the script will crash miserably. GOVERNMENT of India should tell HAL to fund its own requirements for its own projects.
If HAL can't develop a new successful kaveri engine in next 5 years then let them close shop and go home. HALs motto we will try everything in the world of aviation, not spend enough ,donate for non focus areas like covid ,not develop integral townships ,never develop adequate manufacturing capacities for any thing, supply chain inventories shall be nominal ,commit to irrational requirements released from certified ideots like MOD and IAF,cry loud unfeasible export requirements.
🕉️🙏🇮🇳🙏❤️🙏🇮🇳🙏❤️🙏🇮🇳🙏❤️🙏🕉️🙏
GE has not been supplying GE 404 engines as promised in the contract.
Dude this delay is purely due to lack funding to DRDO. Why is Kaveri Engine is being delayed? Whats the status of HAL AMCA?? don't divert. 126 Rafale planes were supposed to be purchased but in the end only 36 were purchased. This govt has made our airforce. Shame on us to still keep operating mig 21 🤦
Do not buy defense equipments from Lotus Machine tools pvt ltd Chandigarh India. Their products are very very low quality. They are with other names: Lotus Defense and aerospace, Security Equipments, Future Technologies. RK Gupta(Father), Amit Gupta(Son)
Or is the US trying to research the recent Tejas crash which is believed to be due to engine seizure? Do they want to retrospect?
15:30
Blame government and scientist for not capable of developing jet engine and armed forces for not accepting indigenous hardware.
It’s the Indians who chose the wrong engine
They chose an engine who no one else is buying and is phased out
They should have purchased the same engine used for f16 as it had 2 suppliers GE and Pratt and Whitney and is more powerful than the F404
Why can't INDIA strike deals with the ROLLS-ROYCE & SAFRAAN. Instead of tarrying in vain on the USA'S *GE* Engines.
Safran makes parts not full jet engines u cant just integrate parts like a cycle or bike , rolls royce comes at a cost and obvio usa wouldnt allow them to deliver , how many people work in r n d orgs ? Only 50 people on an average get hired in those agencies
@@oscarmicheal3677 wrong
Safran makes the M88 engine of the Rafale
DRDO/GTRE should continue to work on Kaveri engine with private sector companies like Godrej, L&T, Kalyani Group . As a Jet Engine is all about exotic materials and innovative ways to use them, these companies have a lot of experience in working with exotic materials for ISRO. The spinoffs of Kaveri Engine will still save a lot of foreign exchange in the long term. Remember all this is happening without a dedicated test bed aircraft for flight testing these engines in India rather than taking them to Russia every few years.
Also, the MoD and IAF should work together on MRFA to build 200+ Rafale's in India (Dassault + Mahindra) . This will allow for lower per aircraft cost and time to indigenize the parts for Rafale.
On Rifles front it boggles one's mind that we are looking abroad when companies like SSS Defence are making good products in India and exporting it. Perhaps the army will wake up once US starts buying them similar to optics from Tonbo Imaging :)!
Please no more rafales or tejas , lets work on tebdf or amca , why shld we buy outdated tech , by the time we order and they get delivered world wouldve moved to 7 th gen development.
@@oscarmicheal3677how many have moved to 5th gen? Theybstarted in 1990's
So we should make our own engines, why depend on others and complain if they don't deliver.
These Bastards don't even add spare manufacturing facilities. HAL isn't serious and need to be penalized.
Why would anyone inc rop/mfg facilities without solid orders?
The Kaveri project is nothing but a government employment project.
USA has a not so good history when it come to helping India in critical situations. There are element in the middle mager level that can dictate terms to companies like GE to delay delivery. First of all, US do not want Indua to be a weapin exporting company, Indian LCA has huge interests abroad and apart from IAF, many foreign countrues are interested in buying lcas. Biden administration has taken a diabolical role in the last two years to limit India. I suspect the engine issue is part of that.
Government is to blame for not funding our own engine
Exorbitantly lengthy chattering, could have covered all the issues 1/5 th of consumed time.Reparative & prolific. Seems, TIME PASS.
Era of Jugad is over...👍🏽
Shame Shame Shame with all the IIT and other Institutes and Research Organisations we are unable to develop an Gas Turbine Engine ( Aero ). It is a national emergency and Iam surprised that no attention is being paid on this for decades.
There must be a national Agency set up exclsusively for this and it should be a national program invloving all institutes and reserach and private industries. It should be a national obsession like cricket perhaps. GTRE Bangalore does not have the Quality People and the Funding to do this.
Iam sure there are Vikram Sarabhai even now. Catch them and make them lead this program.
Stop this L1 requirement as a special case. It is a giant killer of innovation in the R& D in defence sector.. The agency In my view (my guess is) it needs 50,000 crores and 50,000 people to work on this project both directly and indirectly to roll out an engine
We need somebody like APJ or VS or HB who can bet thier life on this project only then it will become a reality
I will shout in every forum about this. I had also told this to IITM director
Bro developing a rocket engine is easier than a gt engine ask anyone , and vssc wont take up such a project let them focus on space race , instead a improved management of govt agencies and talent management would do wonders
Very Vague discussion.Both of them are just beating around the bush.
HAL s anticipation is a big zero.
We can't blame USA for Tejas delay as ik US has delivered around 30 Engines already and our so called HAL can't even produce 2 jets you seriously think US haven't delivered us 2 Engines? Instead of blaming HAL and our system we are here to blame USA for what? Indian government must act fast and scrap and terminate the orders from HAL asap as they are useless whether we like it or not HAL is useless.