The Violinist's Complete Guide to Thumb Positions
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- čas přidán 4. 12. 2019
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This ended up being such a long video I decided to just make it an unlisted link for anyone who watched the high thumb position video and wanted to learn more. After a bit, though, I thought maybe there might be a few of you out there that would like to see the whole thing and wouldn't click on the link in the High Thumb Position video.
How to Play the Violin Without a Shoulder Rest (And Why You Should Care): • How to Play Violin Wit...
it is true, you are the best teacher on the Internet. I am 70 and have been studying now for just over a year. I have been recently experiencing pain in the exact spot that you mentioned, and thought I was doing something wrong. You have relieved me of my worries, as I play in the high thumb position. Thank you. You are amazing!
I've just watched this video and have been comforted by it too. I was also worried. So grateful for your videos Murphy Music Academy!
Granted this video is nearly a year old but since you mentioned that you wish to play mostly with holding the instrument in the left hand: The Violist William Primrose is quoted in the book "Playing the Viola: Conversations with William Primrose", by David Dalton, that he exclusively plays holding the instrument in his left hand and that the collar bone is just a convenient place to put the instrument. An exercise which he gave in order to build his students ability with playing from the left hand - though he would not force anyone who struggled to do this technique - is as quoted:#
"So now to the torture. Resting the instrument on the shoulder ( and mark the word 'resting ), the patient /meaning his student/ is told to raise their head and their gaze will address the ceiling, Despite every inclination--and they will be legion throughout this ceremony-- the must continue with every honest fire of their character to gaze at the roof while they go through the motion of playing a 3 octave scale. (This without the bow.) Having ascended to the C a tenth above the open A string, they now proceed to descend. Here the fun starts--that is, from the onlooker's slant. Unless of iron control and will, the pathetic victim will drop the chin with every movement of descent, and return to the ancient sin of gripping as hard as they can.... Every law and conventional rule of shifting will be broken, and indeed they may end up with the viola down around their naval, but they will get down from above!"
He does admit that this is more about building trust in that you won't drop your instrument if you don't use your head but in my view also introduces the idea of just how comfortable you should be putting your hand in whatever position you need in order to play comfortably.
This is absolutely correct! I’m quite familiar with this quote from Primrose, and I agree entirely. Something that I tell my students is one of the most important things they can learn is that they are not, in fact, going to drop the instrument. The quicker they figure that out, the better they become.
@16:30 just opened a whole new world for me. All this time, I was holding the violin the wrong way in my left hand. The "MMA wedging technique" makes it SO easy to play and hold the violin now. No death grip on the neck , no shoulder rest, my violin stays in place and I can actually do slides up and down the neck without my violin sliding all over the place. THANK YOU!
I have tried to keep my hand frame in first position whit the thumb to the side but it is physically impossible for me to do so. My 1st finger is unable to play f or f# while keeping the frame.
Thanks to you I realized its just because my hands and arms are short, my flexibility allows me to play 4th finger without a great trouble, but if a song reacquires low 1st and normal 4th i am going to have trouble.
Thank you very very much, I learned more from you in these videos than I learned from my violin "teachers" in 5 years. i will definitely work until i feel Position #2 normal.
I have been happy with anything you teach!! The longer, the better as for me.
This guy is the best teacher on youtube. He's honest and very straightforward.
Omg, this was published 4 yrs ago and I'm just finding it. I've been working on my thumb positions bcuz I'm having a hard time with vibrato and your info brought so much light to this subject. I hope to find more on this subject. Thank you.
Thank you so much for your channel; it's freeing me up in so many ways to stop thinking that there is only one "correct" way to play, and to experiment with different set ups/playing positions to find what's comfortable and gives me consistently better sound. I also really appreciate the clarification that the Suzuki method isn't necessarily good; when I was in school, people talked about it like it was the end-all-be-all, and I think a lot of the methods it teaches are what have been holding back my progression.
I’m exploring starting the thumb in basic but as I engage the 3rd or 4th finger just letting that rascal move into a higher thumb position. It helps me keep from squeezing. I’m 74 and my short 4th finger needs all the help it can get. Very helpful video. Thanks.
Very valuable stuff - much the best discussion of the high thumb position that I've found. The idea that you hold the violin by wedging with a slight rotation rather than simply cradling is a bit of a game-changer, and I haven't seen that anywhere else.
I have very long thumbs and I have been having trouble using the #1 technic. After watching this video I think I will concentrate on the #3 method. Thank you for this information.
OH MY GOSH!! I just asked you about my thumb position on another video of yours because I had a lesson with my violin teacher (my first lesson!) and she told me my left hand hold was strange and it was because I had a double jointed thumb. I began playing this way after getting rid of my shoulder rest a year ago after watching your video and it naturally just happened this way. I have been practicing less this week because I was scared that I had learnt wrong but actually it's just high thumb position and it's fine!! Thank goodness! I can go back to my happily high thumb pivoted happiness! My teachers main concern was how I was going to do vibrato but maybe you address that in the last quarter of this video which I'm now going to finish watching 🤣 very excitedly!
I finished watching and there wasn't really a mention of vibrato with high thumb. My question would be, in your experience of high thumb position and already knowing how to do vibrato well, do you find this position helps vibrato? Is there anything you notice that changed for you playing this way? Thank you for the time you put into helping budding violinists grow. It's very much appreciated
This is SUPER HELPFUL! Thank you!!!
Thank you. You were very comprehensive with 'thumb positions'
Bravo! You're doing really *excellent* work here. Most inspiring to see how well you're able to use YT to introduce so much subtle understanding of fundamentals to even the most early of violin students. Let me know if you ever come to London, it'll be a pleasure to meet you and there are a number of my colleagues who I'm sure you'll enjoy meeting. Best, Enrico
Thank you very much, Enrico! If I do come to London I’ll be sure to look you up!
Oh my gosh! You scared me at the end!!
Great information! Very well explained!
Thanks mom!
LOL
good food for thoughts, thanks!
Awesome explanations. My teacher was a shoulder rest user and kept telling me there should be no reliance on the left hand to hold the violin. I personally hate the discomfort of one so it made it difficult to understand how to keep my left hand from getting tense using the first thumb position.
I ditched the teacher (couldn’t afford it anyways) and after some self learning and raising my knuckles more I’ve begun to realize the third thumb position is best for my hand, and your explanation clarifies it for me! Ty
Also, I use a piece of chamois on my shoulder to help with the friction better. Helps a lot especially if you’re wearing silky type of clothes
@@oreodog I also use a cloth under my shirt to fill out space if I'm going to do any serious performing. If you don't use a shoulder rest you become very aware of clothes and how they affect the stability of the instrument, haha.
As for the "no reliance on the left hand thing" I honestly have very little idea where that started and I hate it. Even if you use a shoulder rest, you should still primarily hold the fiddle in the left hand.
Thanks !
Great video, as usual. Thank you.
I'm the person you describe at 10:12 (the swirl is exactly at the base of my palm). What's the rationale behind not recommending a smaller violin, i.e. a 7/8, other than them being hard to find?
When I started playing a few months ago, I went straight for the full size. I've read that it's better if you get used to that size since you'll have better projection and more options to choose from, but since I'm an adult beginner with no expectations other than having fun and intellectual stimulation, is it worth it to "suffer" instead of choosing something smaller and playing with more ease?
Thanks!
I’ve known a couple of very small women who have opted to use a 7/8. If that is the best option for you, then by all means go for it! Of course, if you can manage a full size, the possibilities of violins you can choose from is much greater, where finding a 7/8 is not so common and often people must have them specially commissioned. That would be my primary reason for wanting to try to play on a full size if possible. However, if the best way to play for you is to get a 7/8, then there is no issue with that! Of course, there is also the option of older instruments. Violins from 200 years ago are actually slightly smaller than modern builds. Not maybe quite as small as a 7/8, but still perhaps more comfortable.
Super ❤️
Thanks for the video. I have a short thumb so it wanted to sit at a 60 degree angle causing issues especially in first postion, accompanied by pain in the second knuckle of my first finger. I realized it was because when things became challenging or learning new material, it took the first opportunity to start clamping and translated into tension in my fingers. After a month of trying to find the "right" and perfect position for my thumb, I cycled all kinds of various positions, using band aids occasionally to help learn the feel of maintaining the space between neck and thumb, I found there is no perfect place. I would practice multiple holds throughout and it just seems at this point, I've gained flexibility and, I guess sensitivity to where the violin is sitting so it's become fluid and, et voila, I'm finally on the road to shifting that doesn't require clamping with my neck or encourage my shoulder to scrunch. So, darn, no quick solutions, the answer is lots of creative, wildly frustrating practice until one day my wife recorded me playing violin for a bunch of homeless cats to see their reaction (it was pretty funny, actually) and I realized my thumb was straight and knuckles were up. Thanks again for all your content and guidance.
We feed the cats and their quite comfortable with us at this point. FYI, cats are not fond of the violin. The only one who stuck around after the first 8 chords was a particularly opportunistic cat who usually had to wait until the alphas had finished.
@@gabrielb426 To my astonishment, my elderly cat has stopped leaving the room when I practice, and she can even fall asleep to it. And.. I've been playing for half a year now and I don't sound like I had a day more practice than that.
"big fat muscle on your thumb" - actually is a set of muscles that can be referred to as the "thenar eminence"
"this bone of the thumb" - proximal phalanx of the thumb (as opposed to the distal phalanx which is used for the other positions)
Not trying to criticise, just hoping to help with the terminology!
Edit: I should also have said - great and informative video! I look forward to more!
Thank you for this. I will be sure to use exact anatomical terminology next time so absolutely no one is confused.
@@MurphyMusicAcademy I actually found "big fat muscle on your thumb" very helpful etymology. Mostly because you grabbed it and squeezed and I know exactly the pain you're talking about. It was very encouraging to know everything I'm doing is ok.
Just a question. I noticed that Hadelich is able to play without the neck touching the base of the index finger, how is it possible??
"Tapes"? Did I hear that right? You mean like frets? What kind of ear can kids develop when they don't have to find the right spot themselves, every time? As for having to teach the high thumb position, I doubt that there's a need to teach it -- at least I always assumed that the hand gets it automatically when the need presents -- like sliding or strengthening the pinkie, etc. Nice to see that there are such good, analytic teachers on CZcams.
Hilary Hahn's Thumb Position = My Dream
This is excellent. I am very interested in playing restless using the high thumb position. It seems however that my teacher is vehemently opposed to the idea. He said that the violin should be clamped between the shoulder and the chin and there should be no support whatsoever from the left hand. He advocates the use of a shoulder rest and teaches one conventional thumb position and one vibrato technique (arm) which I find more difficult and unstable while playing restless. I am an adult beginner having played for just over a year now and find it difficult to tell him his business so to speak. How do I convince my professional teacher to accept, learn and teach these old school techniques? Any advise would be appreciated.
Oof, I don't know exactly how you'd advise your teacher without stepping on his toes. Exactly what is his musical training background? The thing is, if you don't know how to play without a shoulder rest and you've been following conventional playing that has been taught by most Suzuki studios for the past several decades, he likely wouldn't even know how to teach the alternative thumb positions, vibrato, and how to play holding the violin in the left hand. It doesn't mean he doesn't know how to teach, but he can only teach what he knows. As far as trying to get him to learn and teach these old techniques, he's going to have to develop that desire himself. I've always been hyper-interested in everything about violin technique, and older artists in general.
I'd suggest going along with what he wants, BUT try holding the violin more in the left hand, even with the shoulder rest and the other thumb position. I personally use the "default" and "thumb under the neck" positions 90% of the time. It's what I learned as a kid and I just adapted to it. I only started understanding the high thumb position in the past few years. Some of my students use it, but I try to adapt to whatever works best for each person. However, most of them end up with my "default" thumb position. Of course, you can hold the violin primarily in the left hand with any thumb position, so follow his advice, still use a shoulder rest, but try to let the violin sit more in the hand. If you are doing it right, he won't even notice.
As for vibrato, I'm kind of surprised you'd be learning vibrato after only a year in. I teach arm vibrato first, though I personally can use both arm and wrist, and I see them as having different purposes. However, in my youth my teacher was much like yours, and only taught arm. You can likely still learn a lot from him, but try to respectfully incorporate some of these ideas as best as you can if you think they help you.
Murphy Music Academy We had a conversation today and he is actually going to keep an open mind and support my endeavor to go restless. He really doesn’t understand it though. He believes the shoulder rest is an improvement toward “better efficiency and musicality”. I think that may be true for many players but not all. At any rate, I am excited to continue my violinistic journey. At age 50 with no prior musical experience I’m finding it incredibly interesting, fun and addictive. Thank you for your help! I appreciate what you’re doing.
@@johnalexander301 37 year old guitar-to-viola newbie here and I'm glad I found this channel.
If I can solo behind my head with a guitar I can learn viola without a shoulder rest!
I agree with many things, but I find your thumb position generally too far below the neck. I generally do a lot more thumb movement. Also, your left elbow is bent too far inward (to the right) so the finger position can't be optimal and relaxed either. Thanks for the great videos!