When I watch 'live' via the available broadcaster, I am delayed by about 5-15 seconds anyway. Assuming noone can broadcast instant live anyways, I don't see why they can't impose delays in their video and audio streams guided by timecodes to sync everything up...
im a video editor in my free time (random bullshit on my youtube) and i ignore it, but i instantly noticed it at the first example its just something we gotta live with i guess? it's because the cameras arent always completely synchronized so swapping POVs is always gonna lose some frames right?
This isn't really that big of an issue, the much bigger issue is when the tv director showing something else that's not exciting while an exciting battle/overtake happens on the track, the most recent example is in Miami last week when Lewis overtook Tsunoda on the last lap, but because they're obligated to show the race winner crossing the finish line, we don't fully see Lewis overtake on Tsunoda live
It wrecks me when the director decides to cut to the fan reaction of something like an overtake. Nobody cares to see this. One of the worst was Hamilton/Bottas Silverstone 2019. We do not care how the fans react. We tune in to watch the flipping race, not crowds of people reacting.
Another one that you can't unhear is that Ted in the pitlane is always approx half a second ahead of the pictures. You'll hear him say how great a pit stop was and they've only just got the tyres off it.
The delay on the commenter's audio is less than on the video stream. This has always been like that, I sometimes think it also is to give geriatric commenters some time to think about what they will say about an event, without it being way behind the action.
I think the bigger issue is how the TV directors are constantly missing overtaking moves and instead showing a line of cars parading around I'm thinking examples like Stroll's five or so moves in the Suzuka esses and we only saw one of them on the live feed despite nothing of note really happening during those times. This is really a nitpick compared to that
@@theracingbanfastest ≠ dominant, just look at McLaren MP4/4, does the car faster than W11? nope, different era, different cars, different type of speed, so, the dominant car is fastest on thei own era
You can find this type of desync issue in almost all live sports/broadcasts. It’s not something that’s easy to fix, especially whilst you are changing venues and have 30+ cameras in the broadcast
I don't mind that as much as them taking 30+ seconds until they cut to whoever is responsible for a yellow flag. Or whenever they show the audience while important stuff is going on. Or staying way too long on some random people in the boxes instead of the driving. etc. etc. etc.
Most likely they do it already. However latency can deviate and they deliberately make the cut in favor of wireless, so viewer don't catch same action twice on "live broadcast".
@@HoutarouOrekiOsu I'd suspect it has to do with synching on-boards. The cars are flying around huge distances in matter of seconds and probably communicate with different servers sending high resolution videos depending on where exactly they are at each moment. Servers take time to process and resubmit data to the broadcast. The time it takes to record/submit/resubmit cannot be identical all the time.
IMO the biggest problem with their broadcasts is that they’ll skip showing overtakes in the midfield/backmarkers in favor of watching roughly P2-P6 just keep parading around with massive gaps between them. I keep seeing some of my fave drivers making overtakes through swaps on the graphic to the left, then realizing they’re just never going to show it, and having to make a mental note to go back and watch it through the onboards.
I’m on a NBA dance team. The jumbo-tron feed is a 0.5 second time delay, but the music is not. It sucks because all the highlight videos of us dancing comes from that feed and it makes it look like we are all off beat, you might not notice, but we notice. It’s been this way for decades.
You have to understand, the big cameras, all feeds live to the director because it is stationary, thus the feed is stable and real time. For the onboards, because the car is moving very fast, you cannot have real time feed because many frames will dropout and is is not nice to see on TV. So portable cameras need to be buffered to have continuous frames, so that if some frame got stuck, it has time to reach the director before the buffer runs out. That looks like 0.5 secs of buffering, which is actually good enough.
You also showed another issue with Alonso’s onboard. The brake telemetry is binary for whatever reason, meaning either it shows as on or off. Braking telemetry is the most important aspect of motorsport and they only show it as on or off instead of showing the full range
I never fully understood why either. They say it's because brake pressure is driver dependent and there isn't a 1:1 ratio between pressure and brake %, since some might have higher maximum pressure in their setup. But why can't they just calibrate and then have a close approximation? If a driver is depressing the brake half as much as they have ever depressed it during the race, show 50%. And the throttle isn't straightforward either if you take into account power mapping, right? The throttle is already an approximation.
Precise frame sync for TV is not always a good thing. Generally, if you look at how action in films/shows/documentaries are cut - you don't actually cut from one camera to the other on the EXACT point of action because it looks very jerky and disorienting. If you are cutting from one cam to the other - the viewer needs some time to adjust to the new angle (and as a result a new spot on the screen to look at) - which is why generally you cut to some frames BEFORE the action to allow our brains to perceive things smoothly without too much effort. However, what happened here is probably the polar opposite - where we cut ahead of the action and actually miss things - so either way that's a great thing to point out as under no circumstance should we actually miss any action given the technology we have today.
That's actually how the old-school Hong Kong kungfu movies' editing were like. During a fight scene they cut to another angle (often a closeup) they'd cut to a few frames earlier than the exact continuous frame.
Thank god someone else noticed it ! From what I recall, this lag started from the 2018 Australian GP onwards. Watching replays prior to 2018, this issue didn’t exist.
The main issue is that the onboard cameras are not analogue transmission, they're digital - requiring encode, transmit/receive buffer time and decode time to make use of video from cars during the programme. It is currently impossible to send uncompressed analogue video at HD quality of all cars along with the other telemetry in the bandwidth they have with the technology widely available. I'm sure in time technology will progress to the point we can get nearly latency free video streaming over ultra wideband or LTE, but it will still be at least several frames, not the milliseconds of old analogue transmission. The delay in onboard is also a useful "tell" for when a car hits a kerb badly or crashes, because the signal from the car is disrupted in real time - but it's still streaming the video data from half a second or even a second ago, so you see breakup on the signal before seeing the associated cause. More annoying for me is the desynchronisation of the pedal, gear change, engine RPM and DRS telemetry. They should delay the graphics superimposed on the halo to align with the video signals, and I think this may have been tried a few times (or through some quirk they aligned better than normal) but normally they're way out. FOM has a difficult challenge with the TV coverage. They use so much augmented reality (products like Viz Arena, etc) that these all need to process the video signals to composite graphics onto them, often including processing camera tracking data (pan, tilt, zoom, focus) to correctly perspective render the AR elements over the "real" camera scene. Things like floating graphics on heli shots, advertising superimposed on grass, the player name tags floating over the cars during certain sequences, all those interesting things. To do this, FOM must delay _every_ live video feed by the same number of frames to essentially compensate for the delay induced by the graphics compositing, which can often be 6-12 frames depending on complexity. This is often called "late pictures". This then means they also have to delay the sound by half a second or more so it matches pictures for the broadcast. Sometimes you hear brief snatches of sound from camera mics or trackside or interviewers which you hear before you see their mouths move, or you hear things twice. The "early" sound is the true sound, the other sound is delayed to match pictures. Then there's additional problems caused by production comms, cleanfeed, various international broadcast feed requirements, two way interviews with people on the pitwall, commentary delays relative to observed pictures etc... Just the requirements of syncing up audio and video then running everything through delays, for a production as big as F1, will take enormous resources and a lot of time to sync test and time align everything. I suspect for the moment, delaying trackside coverage even more to sync it with onboard cameras just isn't a concern for FOM. If they did this as well, they would probably be running the coverage at well over a second and a half delay which has the potential to cause all kinds of further complications.
That probably explains why there were a few times during qualifying when I made the accusation that the lap times weren’t being done properly (either a driver’s lap time is complete before crossing the line or they count it a few tenths after crossing the line)
I am so pleased someone else noticed this!!!! Every overtake spoiled when they cut away from onboard and you miss a chunk!!! They need to cut earlier or later and stop this.
They could compensate by adding a delay to the fastest camera mode. We have these compensation tricks in digital audio workstations (recording studio software used to make songs), and it solves most sync problems.
Well this is expected with an RF (wireless) transmitter travelling at 200mph lol. Despite the track being covered in sensors to pick up the onboard camera feeds and send back to the studio it will obviously have a few more frames of delay conpared to the track cameras which are wired directly. They could add extra frames of delay to the track cameras to match but this is assuming that the onboard delay is consistent. This is just a feature of wireless video feeds. Its always quicker to send something down a cable than over the air, and this isn't really noticeable enough to ruin the experience for the average viewer.
Well it is entirely fixable by doing a simple trick: Delaying the entire TV-feed by around 1sec or so. This will make it so the extra 1sec can be captured from the onboard and in realtime pasted into the gap and shifted to the right timeline.
It could be fixed by adding some latency as buffer to the TV feed. Radio channels already do it so their hosts can have a few seconds of lee way between ads and on air segments. The broadcast is late by 5 seconds, there's a clock in the booth displaying exactly how much delay there is, and they can use up some of that delay to clear their voice or whatever else they need it for, and they'll just gain that delay back by speaking a little earlier after the next ad break/song. They're cheating time by borrowing some for later. You could do the same in F1, using the change between live feed and replays to gain back a few seconds, that you can then use to switch between live on-board and track side footage. Not sure whether they'd gain enough time though, considering how often they change camera angles during a race. They probably already implement it, too, and they just can't make use of it at every cut.
I noticed this about a few years back. It was NEVER an issue before as the broadcast between onboard and outer cams were seemless. I have no idea why this has become an issue now. Needs to be fixed
It doesn't matter the F1 onboard cameras, audio mics will unfortunately have a delay due to them going around the circuit. But it's not noticeable enough where it distracts viewers. If you ever done live broadcast anything, this is the best it can get.
There is an upside to this in my opinion which is when you go from the trackside camera to an onboard during some action, you actually get a mini replay which can be a nice effect. My biggest issue with onboards right now is the insane lag. There is way too much static these days I swear it wasn’t as bad in 2022.
This issue caused a nascar broadcast to miss a flip on the final lap at daytona in 2023. One second the car was on all 4 wheels, the next frame the car was upside down. Very frustrating and takes you out of the moment
It’s existed for ages. Onboard shots are delayed in comparison to the offboard shots. Plus, all shots are delayed versus live. With the original iteration of F1 Digital, you could see that all the diamond screens were exactly in sync with the live pictures, there was no delay at all. Whereas now, due to the potential for fatal accidents, there is a small delay purposefully built in, as well as there being a ‘lag’ in the system. It is irritating. Even watching live onboard shots with ‘live’ team radio, there is a delay between when you see the red light on the steering wheel when their radio is live & when we hear it (close to a second delay) which is pretty big.
Thats delay in onboard cam transmission. You can clearly see this on crashes where the cam gets broken - the stream stops before the crash itself, because the hardware is gone and there was no time to upload some frames.
Makes me think back to the Lance Stroll interrupting the Monaco GP when Vettel and Gasly were going at it. I know that Monaco has its own TV directors, but It seems as though the TV directors from Monaco have been doing all of the races. Just really weird and unecessary cuts in the middle of overtakes. Straight up ignoring two or three cars that could be fighting for position and as you've mentioned this. They really need to step their game up.
I have noticed this in every single qualifying session since I started watching in 2013. It was always different when the timing ended depending if it was on onboard or overhead.
The on board cameras have a slight bit of delay compared to the broadcasting cameras. The TV broadcast has direct access to the static cameras around the track but the cars have to transmit their video wirelessly which creates that small delay where we lose frames in the transition.
As someone relatively new to F1 I really appreciate your content man! It puts things into perspective I would`nt otherwise even think about, so I guess I want to say thank you for that. :)
I've noticed this for years, but given the delays in sending the signal from the onboard cameras to... the broadcasting center? However it works, anyway... I know it's just one of those things. That said, the reason I've noticed it is because they CONSTANTLY switch from onboard to third-person shot in the middle of an overtake, so your last point about directors needing to be more careful when switching perspective is absolutely valid.
I've noticed in in V8 Supercars too but only the last 3 years. It was fairly clean and full from 2011-2020 (that I watched), 2021 where they introduced the hemlet cam is where I noticed it. The car cameras are delayed about a half a second so you see something twice when they cut to it, and miss the end when they cut away
Biggest problem is zooming in on the cars side when they pass by to get all the sponsors readable on the car. This makes the cars look super slow because you have no still fixpoint you can compare the Cars speed with. This is also the reason why we get so few onboards because there are less sponsors to be shown.
Thank you for pointing this out! I've been aware of this in every race and I hated that we lose a big part of the overtaking when they switch from onboard camera to the camera at the turn and I didn't know why it happened. I think they should hold the onboard camera for longer, even the whole battle, we can see the other cameras on the replay...
Its because the on boards are coming in wireless from many many receivers all over the circuit, so will be laggy. The regular track cameras will likely be on a fibre or SDI type connection over a cable that costs more than a Dacia Sandero. The cameras that move (ie Pitlane, Gridwalk) will also be wireless and have a slight delay; look for that pause between Ted Kravitz throwing back to Crofty etc. Not trivial to resolve, and not so bad that it needs resolving.
On spanish TV we usually have 3 simulatenous commentarists, 2 of them on the TV headquarters studio, and Pedro de la Rosa on track. Apparently, as Pedro isn't thousands of kilometers away from the track, he gets the race signal a few seconds ahead, so he's constantly doing spoilers (for example quali laptimes / positions) before we have even seen the car crossing the line, or contact between two drivers on the race before it has happened on our screens.
This looks like a limitation of the switching software they use. Every cut is loading the camera stream into the live feed at the point of the cut. The only possible way around this is to buffer every camera stream to allow close to single frame switching but given the amount of cameras and the data rates involve, a system capable of doing this will not be cost efficient for the time gained
I also noticed this problem and I think that a remarkable example is also during the 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix when Hamilton is trying to overtake back max in the last lap. They are side by side in onboard cam but the are way more distant on the tv angle
A bigger issue to me is the fact that video and audio are not synced: there is a little delay between the image of the HUD and the sound of the engine/gearbox especially in braking zones (even tho i have to admit that f1tv is near perfect...but sky italy has a much bigger delay because you hear the gears change or the engine lift AND THEN you see it on the HUD)
Wow nice find man, terrific job. And I always thought something was off about the 2021 abu dhabi overtake, like ver was in front of ham too fast like we missed something.
It's a known issue with wireless latency on onboard cameras as opposed to fibre connected fixed cameras. You'll see it worst with onboards during quali where the car physically breaks the timing beam and pops up before the car reaches the line on video. It's constantly adjusted during the weekend but can easily desync, but certain tracks are more susceptible to wireless interference than others.
First time I realised this issue existed was in Canada last year when they cut out Alonso's overtake on Hamilton, in that instance it feels like we lost even more than half a second
Unfortunate side effect of the car cameras being wireless. There's simply some delay to get the video data sent and decoded, which isn't present in the rest of the cameras which are most likely wired directly to the TV Director's editing station.
I think it is because of the onboard where the system is moving with the car so it is a bit less powerful and quick than the cameras on the sides which are maybe connected with a wire or they have a better connection
Nice job pointing out the issue. I can't claim there isn't an issue, but I do want to say that F1 by far provides the best coverage of multiple competitors in a single event. I feel like I always know what is going on throughout the racing order. And - if something is missed - they will replay it in depth. This is superb. Compare to the coverage of another favorite of mine, the Crossfit Games. The production team gets tunnel vision on one or two competitors and the viewers have no idea what is occurring with the rest of the field. In fact, it's not even a rare occurrence for another competitor to win the event off camera while everyone was focused in on one person. Shameful. Overall, I'm extremely happy with F1 coverage.
I’ve noticed this live. There should be two broadcasts, one that is “live” that has these cuts for viewers on site and very local to the area, then one that is corrected for international viewing
Also in the on-board, radio always plays with delay. You can see drivers reach the radio button on the wheel and sound comes much later. It goes also for instructions from the pits before the start.
Live race coverage is just by default going to be extremely difficult to do even close to perfectly. In terms of the arguments for showing more of the mid-pack overtakes and such, I’m all for it, but it takes a real expert eye from the directors and insanely fast reaction from the point of identifying where and when an overtake might happen to timing the instruction to cut and to which camera at the right time so that the overtake happens just soon enough after the cut to be engaging but not so soon that it drags on or not soon enough so that most or all of the move is lost. I honestly don’t think people appreciate just how insanely difficult it is to achieve that, especially compared to the 80s/90s where cornering speeds were substantially lower than today
I really wonder how you found out about this issue to begin with lol. The human brain tends to fill in the blanks for moments like this, even if half a second is really quite long
it is because the on board shot is wireless and the other camera is wired. there is always going to be delay on wireless feeds compared to wired. if you have ever been to a race, and seen the cars go by, the video screen that is showing on board shots have a 1 sec delay.
This has happened for as long as I can remember. I remember Kubica having his crash in Montreal. There was a big screen next to the circuit where it happened so you can see it in the replays.
Either a director doesn't know what they are doing (usually from lack of viewing races and focuses on a wind sock or something stupid)....or they're trying to capture a crucial event from a different angle. Losing 25 frames or whatever isn't exactly critical when watching an event play out live - it only becomes critical when analysing who is to blame for something or what exactly happened.
I'm more annoyed on the lack of proper sync between audio, video and telemetry overlay on the onboards. Sometimes there are better but others they are way off.
I have solved this for myself by watching the race 1 minute late, and then pausing every drivers on board at 2 3 4 red lights, and then the main feed the feed at no lights, and pressing start in order for perfect syncing.
This is certainly fixable if they went back to analog signal for the onboards. But these days I don't think most will put up with the random static we used to get with those feeds.
This is something I've noticed for a few years now, and it's more obvious on the onboards when the images aren't in sync with the sounds. F1's far from the only series to have this. For instance, in Formula E over the last couple of years there have been several occasions where it's felt like the commentators are reacting to what's happening after the moment has happened, like they're getting the images after we've got them on tv.
I believe the delays are due to telemetry sync. They need to sync the data with the images, and that means that onboards with speed and accelerator graphs get delayed, and when they cut to normal broadcasting then there's no delay, creating this gap between scenes. This is an educated guess, but both delayed scenes had telemetry on them.
i don't understand why they can't just stay on overlook for the majority of the broadcast. it's the best angle for the broadcaster and the viewer to see everything that's happening on the track. the onboard pov view should be used in replays or if there was a detail missed from the overlook view.
Noticed it a while ago. It’s especially jarring in qualifying cos the car is nowhere near the finish line and u suddenly see a time popup. It’s a lot more pronounced nowadays tho cos I’ve watched back some races from the 2010’s and it’s nowhere near as bad
...We have very different definitions for "unfixable". This is completely fixable issue. Just sync the footage by delaying TV feed by half a second if the onboard is half a second behind.
It would be fixable by having an accurate timestamp on every camera and delay all cameras to the slowest feed (the camera with the lowest timestamps), but I fully understand that they do not want to be dependent on such hardware/protocols for the onboard cameras that are in a car that may lose the link at any time.
Well i mean thats more than likely due to latancy from the cars onboard camera (wireless) vs a camera in a fixed position thats probably hardwired to the broadcast center
Imola Pole Lap 2024 vs 2021: czcams.com/video/uHXx0bPWdko/video.html
When I watch 'live' via the available broadcaster, I am delayed by about 5-15 seconds anyway.
Assuming noone can broadcast instant live anyways, I don't see why they can't impose delays in their video and audio streams guided by timecodes to sync everything up...
The fixable problem is David Croft
This is one of them issues where you don’t really notice it, but once you do, you notice it every time.
worst one was where hamilton overtook vettel in sochi, before the cut he wasn't even alongside lol
This is one of them issues that aren't even an issue.
yeah why do you do that to us Yelistener? now I'm gonna get triggered every single race
Damned straight. Once I watched his last video, I immediately saw the lag and had to show my brother. It’s so awkward
im a video editor in my free time (random bullshit on my youtube) and i ignore it, but i instantly noticed it at the first example
its just something we gotta live with i guess? it's because the cameras arent always completely synchronized so swapping POVs is always gonna lose some frames right?
This isn't really that big of an issue, the much bigger issue is when the tv director showing something else that's not exciting while an exciting battle/overtake happens on the track, the most recent example is in Miami last week when Lewis overtook Tsunoda on the last lap, but because they're obligated to show the race winner crossing the finish line, we don't fully see Lewis overtake on Tsunoda live
I have to clarify that happened during the sprint not the main race, we also didn't fully see battle between Sainz and Ricciardo in that last lap
the race winner is compulsory but if they cut to lance stroll in monaco, then, thats a problem.
It wrecks me when the director decides to cut to the fan reaction of something like an overtake. Nobody cares to see this. One of the worst was Hamilton/Bottas Silverstone 2019. We do not care how the fans react. We tune in to watch the flipping race, not crowds of people reacting.
@@deem1962 bro that is sooo relatable 💀
Monaco Lance Stroll💀
bro dropped an issue and casually brought back that memory 💀
*ecstasy
If you're not over '21, you have issues. Lewis doesn't care anymore. Why should you?
us? are you team LH?
Trauma in Slow Motion even💀💀
Blud just wanted that engagement, there's already 2 tards in the comments being defensive.
Another one that you can't unhear is that Ted in the pitlane is always approx half a second ahead of the pictures. You'll hear him say how great a pit stop was and they've only just got the tyres off it.
Wow this has confused me for a while, finally makes sense haha. Just thought Ted was getting a bit over excited
The delay on the commenter's audio is less than on the video stream.
This has always been like that, I sometimes think it also is to give geriatric commenters some time to think about what they will say about an event, without it being way behind the action.
Yeah, same with football commentary @@Rob2
Every time!
This also underlines perfectly how fast pitstops actually are!
What an amazing lap, the onboard footage qualified 0.5 secs faster than the live footage, that's pole position!
99 likes? Lemme change that 😊
I think the bigger issue is how the TV directors are constantly missing overtaking moves and instead showing a line of cars parading around
I'm thinking examples like Stroll's five or so moves in the Suzuka esses and we only saw one of them on the live feed despite nothing of note really happening during those times.
This is really a nitpick compared to that
The point is.
TV direction sucks.
This channel is truly the RB19 of F1 content here on CZcams, amazing work
Not the w11? Or f2004?
@@Axel22250 RB19 was the most dominant
@@SpeedySpeedBoy14 ah crap
@@SpeedySpeedBoy14not fastest tho
@@theracingbanfastest ≠ dominant, just look at McLaren MP4/4, does the car faster than W11? nope, different era, different cars, different type of speed, so, the dominant car is fastest on thei own era
You can find this type of desync issue in almost all live sports/broadcasts. It’s not something that’s easy to fix, especially whilst you are changing venues and have 30+ cameras in the broadcast
The slow mo Crofty commentary has me dying
iitttsss aaa lllaaattteee lllaaauunnchh bbyyy vveerrsttappeenn
straight out of Mercedes fan's nightmare
I don't mind that as much as them taking 30+ seconds until they cut to whoever is responsible for a yellow flag. Or whenever they show the audience while important stuff is going on. Or staying way too long on some random people in the boxes instead of the driving. etc. etc. etc.
What if they apply an induced delay on the cable broadcast to match onboard shots?
Most likely they do it already.
However latency can deviate and they deliberately make the cut in favor of wireless, so viewer don't catch same action twice on "live broadcast".
@@8ealer I'm honestly baffled because syncing LIVE feeds isn't hard at all.
@@HoutarouOrekiOsu I'd suspect it has to do with synching on-boards. The cars are flying around huge distances in matter of seconds and probably communicate with different servers sending high resolution videos depending on where exactly they are at each moment. Servers take time to process and resubmit data to the broadcast. The time it takes to record/submit/resubmit cannot be identical all the time.
The commentary on my stream is hella delayed, like a whole second
@@8ealerIt cannot be identical at all times, but there has to be an average that will get better results than this, which is way off the mark.
Meanwhile, "What has happened?" "As we see Lance Stroll going over the curb."
It is fixable, they could add artificial delay to the cable connected trackside cameras to roughly compensate for the delay of the onboard.
They already do like most broadcasts
IMO the biggest problem with their broadcasts is that they’ll skip showing overtakes in the midfield/backmarkers in favor of watching roughly P2-P6 just keep parading around with massive gaps between them. I keep seeing some of my fave drivers making overtakes through swaps on the graphic to the left, then realizing they’re just never going to show it, and having to make a mental note to go back and watch it through the onboards.
I’m on a NBA dance team. The jumbo-tron feed is a 0.5 second time delay, but the music is not. It sucks because all the highlight videos of us dancing comes from that feed and it makes it look like we are all off beat, you might not notice, but we notice. It’s been this way for decades.
Guess you could say you're always a beat behind... on the jumbotron at least!
That must be really annoying!
love the groovy sounds bro
You have to understand, the big cameras, all feeds live to the director because it is stationary, thus the feed is stable and real time. For the onboards, because the car is moving very fast, you cannot have real time feed because many frames will dropout and is is not nice to see on TV. So portable cameras need to be buffered to have continuous frames, so that if some frame got stuck, it has time to reach the director before the buffer runs out. That looks like 0.5 secs of buffering, which is actually good enough.
First world problems mate, it's not a huge issue
You also showed another issue with Alonso’s onboard. The brake telemetry is binary for whatever reason, meaning either it shows as on or off. Braking telemetry is the most important aspect of motorsport and they only show it as on or off instead of showing the full range
I never fully understood why either. They say it's because brake pressure is driver dependent and there isn't a 1:1 ratio between pressure and brake %, since some might have higher maximum pressure in their setup. But why can't they just calibrate and then have a close approximation? If a driver is depressing the brake half as much as they have ever depressed it during the race, show 50%. And the throttle isn't straightforward either if you take into account power mapping, right? The throttle is already an approximation.
I once heard that it was on purpose so other drivers couldn’t study competitors’ exact braking techniques
@@whatsf2this is what I believe is most plausible
Precise frame sync for TV is not always a good thing. Generally, if you look at how action in films/shows/documentaries are cut - you don't actually cut from one camera to the other on the EXACT point of action because it looks very jerky and disorienting. If you are cutting from one cam to the other - the viewer needs some time to adjust to the new angle (and as a result a new spot on the screen to look at) - which is why generally you cut to some frames BEFORE the action to allow our brains to perceive things smoothly without too much effort.
However, what happened here is probably the polar opposite - where we cut ahead of the action and actually miss things - so either way that's a great thing to point out as under no circumstance should we actually miss any action given the technology we have today.
That's actually how the old-school Hong Kong kungfu movies' editing were like. During a fight scene they cut to another angle (often a closeup) they'd cut to a few frames earlier than the exact continuous frame.
Thank god someone else noticed it ! From what I recall, this lag started from the 2018 Australian GP onwards. Watching replays prior to 2018, this issue didn’t exist.
It has been present since at least 2016
Bro is casually refreshing the Abu Dhabi 2021 trauma for some people😅
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The main issue is that the onboard cameras are not analogue transmission, they're digital - requiring encode, transmit/receive buffer time and decode time to make use of video from cars during the programme. It is currently impossible to send uncompressed analogue video at HD quality of all cars along with the other telemetry in the bandwidth they have with the technology widely available. I'm sure in time technology will progress to the point we can get nearly latency free video streaming over ultra wideband or LTE, but it will still be at least several frames, not the milliseconds of old analogue transmission.
The delay in onboard is also a useful "tell" for when a car hits a kerb badly or crashes, because the signal from the car is disrupted in real time - but it's still streaming the video data from half a second or even a second ago, so you see breakup on the signal before seeing the associated cause.
More annoying for me is the desynchronisation of the pedal, gear change, engine RPM and DRS telemetry. They should delay the graphics superimposed on the halo to align with the video signals, and I think this may have been tried a few times (or through some quirk they aligned better than normal) but normally they're way out.
FOM has a difficult challenge with the TV coverage. They use so much augmented reality (products like Viz Arena, etc) that these all need to process the video signals to composite graphics onto them, often including processing camera tracking data (pan, tilt, zoom, focus) to correctly perspective render the AR elements over the "real" camera scene. Things like floating graphics on heli shots, advertising superimposed on grass, the player name tags floating over the cars during certain sequences, all those interesting things. To do this, FOM must delay _every_ live video feed by the same number of frames to essentially compensate for the delay induced by the graphics compositing, which can often be 6-12 frames depending on complexity. This is often called "late pictures". This then means they also have to delay the sound by half a second or more so it matches pictures for the broadcast. Sometimes you hear brief snatches of sound from camera mics or trackside or interviewers which you hear before you see their mouths move, or you hear things twice. The "early" sound is the true sound, the other sound is delayed to match pictures.
Then there's additional problems caused by production comms, cleanfeed, various international broadcast feed requirements, two way interviews with people on the pitwall, commentary delays relative to observed pictures etc...
Just the requirements of syncing up audio and video then running everything through delays, for a production as big as F1, will take enormous resources and a lot of time to sync test and time align everything. I suspect for the moment, delaying trackside coverage even more to sync it with onboard cameras just isn't a concern for FOM. If they did this as well, they would probably be running the coverage at well over a second and a half delay which has the potential to cause all kinds of further complications.
Its crazy how much smoother the cars from 2021 go over the track. Satisfying to watch.
That probably explains why there were a few times during qualifying when I made the accusation that the lap times weren’t being done properly (either a driver’s lap time is complete before crossing the line or they count it a few tenths after crossing the line)
Nah i thought it’s Rosberg’s commentary at first💀
watching abu dhabi 2021 in slow mo again was worth watching this vid alone
That always happens, in anything..
I am so pleased someone else noticed this!!!!
Every overtake spoiled when they cut away from onboard and you miss a chunk!!!
They need to cut earlier or later and stop this.
That overtake by Max always brings a smile to my face, what a great evening that was.
They could compensate by adding a delay to the fastest camera mode. We have these compensation tricks in digital audio workstations (recording studio software used to make songs), and it solves most sync problems.
Well this is expected with an RF (wireless) transmitter travelling at 200mph lol. Despite the track being covered in sensors to pick up the onboard camera feeds and send back to the studio it will obviously have a few more frames of delay conpared to the track cameras which are wired directly. They could add extra frames of delay to the track cameras to match but this is assuming that the onboard delay is consistent. This is just a feature of wireless video feeds. Its always quicker to send something down a cable than over the air, and this isn't really noticeable enough to ruin the experience for the average viewer.
Well it is entirely fixable by doing a simple trick:
Delaying the entire TV-feed by around 1sec or so.
This will make it so the extra 1sec can be captured from the onboard and in realtime pasted into the gap and shifted to the right timeline.
It could be fixed by adding some latency as buffer to the TV feed. Radio channels already do it so their hosts can have a few seconds of lee way between ads and on air segments. The broadcast is late by 5 seconds, there's a clock in the booth displaying exactly how much delay there is, and they can use up some of that delay to clear their voice or whatever else they need it for, and they'll just gain that delay back by speaking a little earlier after the next ad break/song. They're cheating time by borrowing some for later. You could do the same in F1, using the change between live feed and replays to gain back a few seconds, that you can then use to switch between live on-board and track side footage. Not sure whether they'd gain enough time though, considering how often they change camera angles during a race. They probably already implement it, too, and they just can't make use of it at every cut.
Usually broadcasts are not 100% accurate. They are a second or two off.
I noticed this about a few years back. It was NEVER an issue before as the broadcast between onboard and outer cams were seemless. I have no idea why this has become an issue now. Needs to be fixed
It doesn't matter the F1 onboard cameras, audio mics will unfortunately have a delay due to them going around the circuit. But it's not noticeable enough where it distracts viewers. If you ever done live broadcast anything, this is the best it can get.
Goosebumps just remembering how good 2021 was
There is an upside to this in my opinion which is when you go from the trackside camera to an onboard during some action, you actually get a mini replay which can be a nice effect.
My biggest issue with onboards right now is the insane lag. There is way too much static these days I swear it wasn’t as bad in 2022.
Yeah I thought I was the only one.. this onboard are more laggy than 2018-2019
@@everything.f1.pro. if you look at 2022 races, the onboards are noticeably more consistently smooth than what we have now.
This issue caused a nascar broadcast to miss a flip on the final lap at daytona in 2023. One second the car was on all 4 wheels, the next frame the car was upside down. Very frustrating and takes you out of the moment
Let's all agree this is the best F1 analysis channel... 🙌
It’s existed for ages. Onboard shots are delayed in comparison to the offboard shots. Plus, all shots are delayed versus live.
With the original iteration of F1 Digital, you could see that all the diamond screens were exactly in sync with the live pictures, there was no delay at all. Whereas now, due to the potential for fatal accidents, there is a small delay purposefully built in, as well as there being a ‘lag’ in the system. It is irritating. Even watching live onboard shots with ‘live’ team radio, there is a delay between when you see the red light on the steering wheel when their radio is live & when we hear it (close to a second delay) which is pretty big.
I didn't notice this before. Now you mention it, I can't unsee it for the next time I watch
Thats delay in onboard cam transmission. You can clearly see this on crashes where the cam gets broken - the stream stops before the crash itself, because the hardware is gone and there was no time to upload some frames.
Makes me think back to the Lance Stroll interrupting the Monaco GP when Vettel and Gasly were going at it. I know that Monaco has its own TV directors, but It seems as though the TV directors from Monaco have been doing all of the races. Just really weird and unecessary cuts in the middle of overtakes. Straight up ignoring two or three cars that could be fighting for position and as you've mentioned this. They really need to step their game up.
I have noticed this in every single qualifying session since I started watching in 2013. It was always different when the timing ended depending if it was on onboard or overhead.
The on board cameras have a slight bit of delay compared to the broadcasting cameras. The TV broadcast has direct access to the static cameras around the track but the cars have to transmit their video wirelessly which creates that small delay where we lose frames in the transition.
As someone relatively new to F1 I really appreciate your content man! It puts things into perspective I would`nt otherwise even think about, so I guess I want to say thank you for that. :)
I've noticed this for years, but given the delays in sending the signal from the onboard cameras to... the broadcasting center? However it works, anyway... I know it's just one of those things. That said, the reason I've noticed it is because they CONSTANTLY switch from onboard to third-person shot in the middle of an overtake, so your last point about directors needing to be more careful when switching perspective is absolutely valid.
I've noticed in in V8 Supercars too but only the last 3 years. It was fairly clean and full from 2011-2020 (that I watched), 2021 where they introduced the hemlet cam is where I noticed it. The car cameras are delayed about a half a second so you see something twice when they cut to it, and miss the end when they cut away
Biggest problem is zooming in on the cars side when they pass by to get all the sponsors readable on the car.
This makes the cars look super slow because you have no still fixpoint you can compare the Cars speed with.
This is also the reason why we get so few onboards because there are less sponsors to be shown.
Its almost as if wireless cameras have latency compared to fibre optic link cameras
Thank you for pointing this out! I've been aware of this in every race and I hated that we lose a big part of the overtaking when they switch from onboard camera to the camera at the turn and I didn't know why it happened. I think they should hold the onboard camera for longer, even the whole battle, we can see the other cameras on the replay...
Its because the on boards are coming in wireless from many many receivers all over the circuit, so will be laggy.
The regular track cameras will likely be on a fibre or SDI type connection over a cable that costs more than a Dacia Sandero. The cameras that move (ie Pitlane, Gridwalk) will also be wireless and have a slight delay; look for that pause between Ted Kravitz throwing back to Crofty etc.
Not trivial to resolve, and not so bad that it needs resolving.
On spanish TV we usually have 3 simulatenous commentarists, 2 of them on the TV headquarters studio, and Pedro de la Rosa on track. Apparently, as Pedro isn't thousands of kilometers away from the track, he gets the race signal a few seconds ahead, so he's constantly doing spoilers (for example quali laptimes / positions) before we have even seen the car crossing the line, or contact between two drivers on the race before it has happened on our screens.
This looks like a limitation of the switching software they use. Every cut is loading the camera stream into the live feed at the point of the cut.
The only possible way around this is to buffer every camera stream to allow close to single frame switching but given the amount of cameras and the data rates involve, a system capable of doing this will not be cost efficient for the time gained
I thought the idsue was braking telemetry, i for one wanna see how much they brake but you made me realize now
This video needs to be out there!
I also noticed this problem and I think that a remarkable example is also during the 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix when Hamilton is trying to overtake back max in the last lap. They are side by side in onboard cam but the are way more distant on the tv angle
easy fix, delay the cable signal.
A bigger issue to me is the fact that video and audio are not synced: there is a little delay between the image of the HUD and the sound of the engine/gearbox especially in braking zones (even tho i have to admit that f1tv is near perfect...but sky italy has a much bigger delay because you hear the gears change or the engine lift AND THEN you see it on the HUD)
Wow nice find man, terrific job. And I always thought something was off about the 2021 abu dhabi overtake, like ver was in front of ham too fast like we missed something.
It's a known issue with wireless latency on onboard cameras as opposed to fibre connected fixed cameras. You'll see it worst with onboards during quali where the car physically breaks the timing beam and pops up before the car reaches the line on video. It's constantly adjusted during the weekend but can easily desync, but certain tracks are more susceptible to wireless interference than others.
First time I realised this issue existed was in Canada last year when they cut out Alonso's overtake on Hamilton, in that instance it feels like we lost even more than half a second
Unfortunate side effect of the car cameras being wireless. There's simply some delay to get the video data sent and decoded, which isn't present in the rest of the cameras which are most likely wired directly to the TV Director's editing station.
I thought we were gonna talk about brakes always being 100% pressure cause that always happens but i guess this also is a problem.
I think it is because of the onboard where the system is moving with the car so it is a bit less powerful and quick than the cameras on the sides which are maybe connected with a wire or they have a better connection
Nice job pointing out the issue. I can't claim there isn't an issue, but I do want to say that F1 by far provides the best coverage of multiple competitors in a single event. I feel like I always know what is going on throughout the racing order. And - if something is missed - they will replay it in depth. This is superb. Compare to the coverage of another favorite of mine, the Crossfit Games. The production team gets tunnel vision on one or two competitors and the viewers have no idea what is occurring with the rest of the field. In fact, it's not even a rare occurrence for another competitor to win the event off camera while everyone was focused in on one person. Shameful. Overall, I'm extremely happy with F1 coverage.
I’ve noticed this live. There should be two broadcasts, one that is “live” that has these cuts for viewers on site and very local to the area, then one that is corrected for international viewing
Also in the on-board, radio always plays with delay. You can see drivers reach the radio button on the wheel and sound comes much later. It goes also for instructions from the pits before the start.
It is unreasonable to expect the team radio to be broadcast exactly live. A 2-3s delay is fine.
Nice video 👍, love the new music btw.
Live race coverage is just by default going to be extremely difficult to do even close to perfectly. In terms of the arguments for showing more of the mid-pack overtakes and such, I’m all for it, but it takes a real expert eye from the directors and insanely fast reaction from the point of identifying where and when an overtake might happen to timing the instruction to cut and to which camera at the right time so that the overtake happens just soon enough after the cut to be engaging but not so soon that it drags on or not soon enough so that most or all of the move is lost.
I honestly don’t think people appreciate just how insanely difficult it is to achieve that, especially compared to the 80s/90s where cornering speeds were substantially lower than today
I really wonder how you found out about this issue to begin with lol. The human brain tends to fill in the blanks for moments like this, even if half a second is really quite long
it is because the on board shot is wireless and the other camera is wired. there is always going to be delay on wireless feeds compared to wired. if you have ever been to a race, and seen the cars go by, the video screen that is showing on board shots have a 1 sec delay.
Thanks for making us relive 2021 💔
i hope they make the camera FOV a bit wider so we would get that more of that speed feeling
Always great to relive this moment.
I love re-living sporting injustice as well!
Still brings a smile to my face
@@oransjball Is there a single day you manage to not cry about something that didn't screw over anyone but the lapped people?
@@bertvanbeterbed9702 -overweight gamer
@@kristoffer3000 injustice is injustice. If you cant recognise it youre clearly not a sporting fan.
This has happened for as long as I can remember. I remember Kubica having his crash in Montreal. There was a big screen next to the circuit where it happened so you can see it in the replays.
i felt the very hardest when in last race (Miami) there was a Ferrari pit stop that looked like it was a 1.2 seconds stop...
Either a director doesn't know what they are doing (usually from lack of viewing races and focuses on a wind sock or something stupid)....or they're trying to capture a crucial event from a different angle. Losing 25 frames or whatever isn't exactly critical when watching an event play out live - it only becomes critical when analysing who is to blame for something or what exactly happened.
The 2021 final race championship overtake also suffered from this issue. I think it is technically unfixable, just a desync.
I'm more annoyed on the lack of proper sync between audio, video and telemetry overlay on the onboards. Sometimes there are better but others they are way off.
Yeah I've seen this first in 2020 but didn't mention anywhere. Glad I wasn't the only one afterall who realised this
Tell me you're acoustic without telling me you're acoustic
I have solved this for myself by watching the race 1 minute late, and then pausing every drivers on board at 2 3 4 red lights, and then the main feed the feed at no lights, and pressing start in order for perfect syncing.
We see it often in the pit stops, which seems instant
This is certainly fixable if they went back to analog signal for the onboards. But these days I don't think most will put up with the random static we used to get with those feeds.
This is something I've noticed for a few years now, and it's more obvious on the onboards when the images aren't in sync with the sounds. F1's far from the only series to have this. For instance, in Formula E over the last couple of years there have been several occasions where it's felt like the commentators are reacting to what's happening after the moment has happened, like they're getting the images after we've got them on tv.
Superb analysis man! God bless
Te biggest problem is the yelling commentators. I can hardly watch a lap of any race.
Great work as always but the real issue is when they cut to the crowd shots and girlfriends. That’s unbearable.
Yall guys have it so good when it comes to broadcast compared to nascar there would be a pass for the lead and then fox cuts away from it
I miss the old music but this is cool too
I believe the delays are due to telemetry sync. They need to sync the data with the images, and that means that onboards with speed and accelerator graphs get delayed, and when they cut to normal broadcasting then there's no delay, creating this gap between scenes. This is an educated guess, but both delayed scenes had telemetry on them.
didnt realize Max almost overshot the corner in AD. from the trackside it looked like he just had that much more grip and took the tight inside line
i don't understand why they can't just stay on overlook for the majority of the broadcast. it's the best angle for the broadcaster and the viewer to see everything that's happening on the track. the onboard pov view should be used in replays or if there was a detail missed from the overlook view.
Noticed it a while ago. It’s especially jarring in qualifying cos the car is nowhere near the finish line and u suddenly see a time popup. It’s a lot more pronounced nowadays tho cos I’ve watched back some races from the 2010’s and it’s nowhere near as bad
...We have very different definitions for "unfixable". This is completely fixable issue. Just sync the footage by delaying TV feed by half a second if the onboard is half a second behind.
Tough words. Agree
It would be fixable by having an accurate timestamp on every camera and delay all cameras to the slowest feed (the camera with the lowest timestamps), but I fully understand that they do not want to be dependent on such hardware/protocols for the onboard cameras that are in a car that may lose the link at any time.
Well i mean thats more than likely due to latancy from the cars onboard camera (wireless) vs a camera in a fixed position thats probably hardwired to the broadcast center