Wayland Is Superior To Xorg: But It Doesn't Matter
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- čas přidán 4. 09. 2023
- Nowadays Wayland is just technically superior to X11 and Xorg but everybody already knows that the problem is it doesn't convince the stragglers because they have reasons to keep using X11
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==========Resources==========
Boycott Wayland: gist.github.com/probonopd/9fe...
Oro Blog: orowith2os.gitlab.io/posts/wa...
Wayland Merits Blog: utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/b...
Xenocara OpenBSD Wayland: xenocara.org/Wayland_on_OpenB...
River Github: github.com/riverwm/river
DWL Github: github.com/djpohly/dwl
Labwc Github: github.com/labwc/labwc
XFCE Roadmap: wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_...
Clem Comment: blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4470#co...
Budgie Wayland: buddiesofbudgie.org/blog/wayland
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Wayland feels like the Linux of Linux
Don't listen to the haters, next year is *definitely* the year of the Wayland desktop.
@@SuperTort0iseI could've sworn i heared that somewhere sometime already... /s
Honestly, more normal linux users are probably using Wayland at this point than not due to it being the default for most distros. :p But yeah they probably run in to nasty surprises when random things don't work right which worked before or should work as described.
My 9yo laptop actually run better on wayland. It use less cpu and noticable drop on screen tearing with vsync disabled and slightly less letancy with vsync enabled.
@@thrumboI mean, Wayland IS a simpler protocol, so that makes sense.
I continue to be disappointed in Brodie’s failure to cover Hannah Montana Linux, one of the most consequential Linux projects ever.
It's Hannah Montana! 😳
And it's still being maintained
@@muammar007 still maintained? just a large gap release schedule? afaicr, there have been only 2 releases of hannah montana linux. the first, with kde3, was a superb showcase of distro-respinning, that there can be real-world-useful well-configured well-kitted distros to cater to everybody. low bar ftw, no one left behind. no need to forsake little girls (and other hanah montana fans or whoever else) leaving them to the proprietary vampires.
(the kde4 version, meh, killed it imo)
It’s not using wayland tho
Over beaten dead meme
You could make an argument that Linux CZcamsrs are effectively sort of a PR frontend workforce driving Linux knowledge spread and adoption. Therefore providing them with tooling and good experience they can talk about is beneficial both for both Linux and Wayland growth . The fact that not a lot of people do video production on Linux does not mean it is an unimportant niche ;)
It's also just not true. Consumer video production on Linux might be uncommon(less so all the time), but professional use is not at all, nor is it new. High end video production systems have been common since the late 90s in fact. I used Shake, the workstation version of the Tremor turnkey package, alongside Maya in the early 2000s.
You are right that at least some focus on features CZcamsrs use would help things pr-wise. though.
I read the beginning like "sort of pull request front end workforce" and like huh? 🤯 BTW I have adopted shotcut for my music videos and will try kdenlive next
The reason I still use X is because my drawing tablet is a little buggy with Plasma and Wayland, and because mcpelauncher simply doesn't work on Wayland. But I've already tried daily driving Wayland, and aside from this issues, it is really great.
mcpelauncher works fine under plasma (x)wayland.
I use mcpelauncher. It works well. Better even.
@@commander3494 last time i tried mcpelauncher i was running sway. i haven't tried running mcpelauncher under wayland again since i moved to plasma. maybe i will try wayland again someday
The shortcut buttons of my unsupported note taking tablet simply do not work on Wayland, as the half-baked community driver lacks this support there.
So my laptop is staying on X for the forseeable future, though I will give the official beta driver a spin eventually.
As my desktop works well currently, I see no need to change it either.
My intention is to look into switching to Wayland on the Plasma 6 update, as that is supposed to support Wayland primarily and is a major change.
That's an understatement, my cintiq doesn't work at all and nor does my space mouse...and I still use wayland over X because X is dead. And has been for over a decade. Hell I switched back to windows 7 for most of that decade just wait out this transitory period as much as possible. And good riddance cause X was always horrible.
One of the top reasons for giving Wayland a try is that you may notice some long standing issues that X had majorly improved, like consistently getting rid of screen tearing or multi monitor support with different refresh rates. Even if you may get 10 other new issues lol.
This is one thing that Pipewire did vastly better by being an almost drop in replacement for Pulseaudio. I get that breaking compatibility may have been necessary but i wish it wouldn't take 10+ years to make a widespread transition.
I'm still on X because software like Zoom and Teamviewer have very limited Wayland support and Kde plasma still has some annoying bugs like taskbar thumbnails not appearing and windows not remembering their sizes
& new issues introduced, great!
I'm still on X precisely because of these and other communication tools that don't support screen sharing/control on Wayland at all, and I like Wayland a lot.
I used to ask people "do you know what screen tearing is, and can you see it?" followed by "do you prefer to see the screen tearing or do you want to never see it?" If they want screen tearing, I would then give them Xorg, and if they don't want screen tearing i would give them a Wayland compositor. This was because Wayland used to fundamentally disable screen tearing. However, some wayland compositors now *support screen tearing* , making them a viable option for people who want screen tearing. If you can't imagine why anyone would possibly need screen tearing, then you will never understand, in a similar way to how some people will never understand why anyone would need more than 60 hz or why anyone would ever use Linux
for my personal workflow, the barrier preventing wayland is the *xrandr setmonitor* subcommand. There are at least two X11 window managers (marco and openbox) that fully support this subcommand, but as far as I have been able to find so far, there is not yet a single wayland compositor, tool or fork that implements remotely similar features to the *xrandr setmonitor* subcommand. From my perspective, for a wayland compositor to be "finished" it must implement a usable replacement for *xrandr setmonitor* .
@@tacokoneko It's perfectly understandable why someone would want more than 60hz or why someone would use Linux. It's completely baffling to me why anyone would want screen tearing. You're going to have to explain that one to me.
I use ssh X11 forwarding daily at work to access multiple tools that need to run locally on single specific computers. This feature has been amazingly useful for for my productivity by letting me not have to switch between local and remote desktops, and X11 will need to exist for as long as it takes Wayland to get full support for this feature.
At home I don’t have a need for this feature so I run Wayland on my personal devices, but for work it’s a godsend feature
it was already out for years when you wrote this
Wayland does support this via xwayland I think, in the form of waypipe there's a purely Wayland implementation as well
The reason most people probably don't even consider switching to Wayland is, they don't have a reason for. Does Wayland work as good as X11 for them? Maybe? Does it matter? Probably not. So why would anyone switch in such a case?
I'm currently a Nvidia user and with my next PC bulid soon it will be AMD. But still, I don't see any reason to install Wayland instead of X11.
because the snowflakes 'in charge' of your favorit distribution are forcing you eg fedora is dropping X11 and I'm sure the wannabe's at KDE will too.
@@lunarmation I'm not sure if you can call it "forcing you", if there is an option to install or use X11. They just change the default when installing it new.
raichoo (the hikari developer) said at C3 (czcams.com/video/b8OY4VtYx1s/video.html): "The [Wayland] compositor decides when to redraw things. It's not like draw a line, draw a circle, draw some text, and in between I could just draw a frame and flicker, and do screen tearing and all that stuff. This just doesn't happen with Wayland. Everything is super smooth. You don't want to go back once you see that once."
In my experience, this is accurate. Wayland, once you get it working properly, is such a pleasure to use that you won't want to go back to X. Does it matter for getting actual work done? Probably not. I used to use twm, and I got work done. But there is some benefit from just enjoying life. Wayland is enjoyable to use in a way that X never was and never will be.
In terms of pure functionality the two things I noticed that Wayland can do, which X will never be able to do, is: 1) On-screen display volume controls work on Wayland even when the screen is locked; this is architecturally impossible in X, and 2) The lock screen can guarantee that no input leaks through to the desktop and no output leaks out to the monitor until you unlock the screen, again, something that X just architecturally cannot do.
@@DavidJao Or you use a FreeSync or G-Sync monitor and have the refreshreate synced to the GPU output. Then you have tear free experience without locking to a fixed refreshrate on X11 too.
@@thingsiplay smoothness extends to input responsiveness, not just display smoothness. Gamers claim that microsecond latencies matter. Wayland saves a **lot** of communication round trips, and timings are more consistent, especially under heavy load. This is especially true for things like gestures which aren't originally a part of X.
You could do the same thing in X, but by the time you're done you'd have something incompatible with what you started with, and at that point you might as well just switch to Wayland.
I wouldn't disregard people's criticisms about Wayland. The answer for them is simple, either Wayland offers 1:1 feature parities to that of X11, or it can f*** off. They have specific workflow/paradigm that they understood and comfortable with, so with Wayland trying to throw all of that away, I think the criticisms are wholly justified.
Tablet input falls into the final category as well. Libinput itself is pretty great at handling the hardware, but that means nothing if your particular compositor doesn't implement the tablet protocol. And even if it has implemented the protocol, there are "software" features that might not be available (e.g. sending keyboard shortcuts when a button is pressed, changing which display the tablet is mapped to, etc.). Not a "Wayland" problem per-se, but a fragmentation problem that Wayland still suffers from.
OpenTabletDriver works on Wayland and pretty much eliminated all issues for me
Nobody really gave me any good reasons why I should switch to wayland. People just keep telling me how wayland "works fine", but so does X11. They ask "why aren't you switching", well, why should I? I've never had any real issues with X11.
It has increased security, which could be an argument, but I feel that's more an annoyance than anything.
I feel like wayland doesn't only needs to be good enough, it needs to be considerably better in multiple ways, otherwise it is hardly worth switching.
Wayland is more secure, has better performance and supports touchpad gestures much better than X11.
Is the performance of wayland that much better? have never seen any benchmarks or anything. Is it really noticable, or mostly a theoretical thing?
Better touchscreen gestures is cool tho.@@lechi_2002
@@lechi_2002 none of those are true
@@lechi_2002 who care about performance if it crash ? Who care about touchpad when you use a mouse ? And security.. I don't have problem with X...
@@LtSich Until you have .... :)
No, now seriously, we've been using an insecure system for years so yeah... whatever. But seeing how easy is to capture keyboard and screenshots on X for any random app is an eye opener that scared me to hell , really.
I use X because whenever I have tried a Wayland desktop environment, it performs terribly: Constant hitching and low framerate. It has been a few months since i last tried one, but that is because my current debian setup is very stable and satisfactory, and i need it as a workstation, and i don't have another device to test on.
Also, it is 12 years old.
Which desktop are you using? I have had issues with Wayland on Plasma.
Unfortunately, Wayland's support is far from full-featured across desktop environments. Wayland's feature-set is the most complete in GNOME versions 3.20+ and is mostly functional in KDE. Apart from that, users of MATE, Cinnamon, Unity, Budgie, Xfce, LXDE, LXQt all must crutch on X11.
Some DEs are closer to Wayland adoption than others. But right now, if you want to use a lite weight standard desktop experience you're stuck with X11 (unless you're a CLI chad).
Budgie team is working on their own Wayland compositor and have plans to ditch X entirely
main reson i still use x on some machines
I think that the lack of basic things that xorg already had - like global hotkeys, root applications, and screen sharing are valid concerns, as well as having no standard way to do things between window managers. Wayland feels like a hodge-podge of different tools to make up for missing parts of Wayland that xorg already provided. That said, I'm pretty happy with my sway setup.
I haven't looked into Wayland recently, the last time I looked into it was years ago and I'd recently been bitten by Unity being a hot pile of crap when it showed up on my Ubuntu install. Being so buggy as to be completely useless, but included in a mainstream release anyways.
Xorg had a massive lead and honestly did, and still does, far more than what most people need. I doubt that most people are doing stuff like subdividing individuals monitors into separate virtual screens to give you multimonitor on a single monitor.
@@SmallSpoonBrigade For the average user that is absolutely correct - but for the average Linux user, the amount of people who want tiling will go up
2 months in the future here luckily KDE made a program which now lets apps like discord screen share on wayland which was big blocker for me
@@tux_the_astronaut Yeah, I tried out screen recording via OBS recently and it worked without any problems - but this was using Plasma desktop, which in my experience so far has been the best Wayland desktop
Personally, I have an AwesomeWM config that works for me, plus I use some third-party layouts on Awesome. When I last looked into it a few months ago, most dynamic tiling wayland compositors are still either missing features I'd like, or still relatively beta-quality. Hyprland doesn't have as feature-rich a layout system as something like awesome, and I prefer the "tag"-based workflow of awesome (and dwm etc). When I last looked into it, Qtile's wayland API wasn't as fully documented as on X, and migrating to a python-based config would make it more of a project. River looks promising but still seems to be a pretty young project. Will probably eventually either adjust to hyprland or migrate to qtile.
So many people are mentioning AwesomeWM and I have to say: if there was an AwesomeWM for Wayland, I'd use it and never look back. AwesomeWM's customisability via the widgets system is incredible. My Qtile and AwesomeWM configs have pretty much achieved feature parity with one another, but the main dealbreaker for me with Qtile is that I can't get a proper Systray and the StatusNotifier widget is just not a real replacement. I mean, if Waybar can have a proper systray, I'm sure Qtile's bar can have one too, and the same goes gor Yambar, another bar project I follow.
@@Watcher4361 Since sway uses manual tiling and workspaces rather than dynamic layouts and tags, the features I like from awesome are outside of sway's scope. (There are third-party scripts that implement some dynamic-style features but that's a bit janky for my taste). It's a good compositor for people who prefer that workflow though.
(edit since I didn't see your edit: if sway supports that natively I wasn't aware, but if it's external scripts, like I said, it's an extra layer of complexity that is exposed through a separate interface. Personally I'll hold out for a compositor that supports those features natively)
@@Watcher4361 I like dwl the best, but dwl does not support tablets it seems look at issue 336
Very simple reason I still don't use wayland.
Last time I tried, there was no "primary monitor" concept (at least for KDE). Further, the developers were stating that it was fundamentally impossible to support, killing the conversation off and basically telling everyone who was requesting it, "no ur rong" without giving any sort of work around for all the users presenting legitimate scenarios where they had a use case for it.
So yeah... since then, I've not bothered to check and see if they've done a 180 on that.
X still works perfectly fine, stale code or no.
Wayland for a decade now has always been "almost ready!". I have no desire to be a beta tester for Wayland. I use KDE and I have a RTX-4090 wayland just doesn't like that combo (I've tried). And again, I'm not going to beta test it. I need something that works, not bs and excuses from Wayland fanboys. When it's 100% complete I will try it. Not until then.
I used to have deal breaking issues on Wayland on an RTX 4090 desktop. KDE Plasma 5.27.6 made Wayland usable but there are a few hiccups, like the panel not fully refreshing occasionally and the only way to fix it is to log out then back in.
Nvidia is not fully supported, so no wonders. Why so angry... what Wayland and his fanboys has to do with it? No one told you before trying?
@@framegrace1 when people have been crying wolf for ten years it grates on your nerves.
I was actually using Wayland and pretty happy with it, until I realized that my constant crashing in FFXIV was due to Wayland. I swapped back to X11 and not gotten a crash since. Not sure if that is purely a Wayland issue or if it is a Wayland + My Hardware (A laptop with Intel iGPU + Nvidia dGPU) issue.
Hey! Also an FFXIV player with NVIDIA. Wayland just sucks on NVIDIA unfortunately :(
I was having another issue with ff14 on Wayland, it would insert other frames old frames in between current frames so ide be running around and it would flicker. Maybe a buffering issue or something.
I was fairly impressed how well it ran though, it did way better in crowded areas, but lower max fps but when you're over 200 to 300 fps it doesn't even matter.
@@09f9 Nvidia Wayland issue most likely.
I was also having crashes on KDE with Intel and iGPU only. Seems like removing xf86-video-intel had solved the issue (just uninstall it via package manager)
Upd: Sorry, it won't help you. Wayland doesn't work well with Nvidia
Being a user of "not 10 year old hardware" wayland's development over the last 3-4 years has been simply amazing. With my hardware being modern, X (and especially tools like pulseaudio) worked somewhat but needed _a lot_ of manual tweaking to even get halfway working.
Wayland on the other hand had no support for many things, but every time something was added, it actually worked (compared to X), and almost flawlessly at that.
And while people complain about XWayland being buggy/missing features, in my case it currently works better than native X (or rather X from 3 years ago).
Umm pretty sure I am running both Wayland (PID 3216) and Pulseaudio (PID 1731). (Newish Ubuntu LTS.)
I spent years uninstalling pulse to fix my audio (on Debian), but I was not able to do that without breaking Ubuntu. I also now have a 6 core CPU; so pulse can use a core or 2 without dragging performance.
Does Wayland still have a mouse cursor that doesn't feel sluggish? Because that's all I care about and apparently none of the wayland folks do
@@SiisKolkytEuroo I've never experienced a sluggish mouse on wayland - at least not in what I remember - so I don't know what you are referring to. (If that counts as an answer.)
@@knyffen4534 for me, the last time I tried, it felt the same way a game feels when it has vsync enabled
@@SiisKolkytEuroo I haven't noticed a sluggish mouse cursor. If you are using fall-back software rendering (Nvidia user?) that may make the interface less responsive.
Edit: What I want back is focus follows mouse cursor. It is apparently doable with a hack.
I'm a developer and I couldn't care less about what my system uses. I am currently on Fedora and Wayland works without causing me any issues so I am happy. I want to turn on my computer, do work and turn it off without any issues and this is what I am getting.
Mutter is the most stable wayland compositor for now
It sure is...I just can't get used to the workflow gnome is aiming for. Coming from an autotiler it just feels weird and clunky.
fedora was my first distro and i feel it has been like that since; lock and load, no bs. my next was arch which is the opposite lol
Even basic shit like tkinter from python doesn't support Wayland. If you encounter problems using Wayland, which will soon to be your only option on Linux, the support you get is to get fucked and switch to a supported display server, aka Windows or Mac now X11 isn't an option.
@@NH-ij8dz man exist Xwayland, is not necessary to use a X11 session
I'm waiting for Xfce to support Wayland. As it's one of the most stable desktop environment, I believe that when that support comes out, the Wayland protocols and tooling will already be somewhat stable.
Xfce may be stable because of the slow development but I like it. (Except for a bug with focus not changing correctly on fullscreen windows that I reported to xfwm gitlab and it still persists.)
Still needs automatic compositing like in KDE tbh. I made a bash function to get around this
Xfwm seems a bit plagued with window focus issues, especially when using focus follows mouse. A lot of applications do like to do weird stuff with focus though, like the godot editor trying to take focus while testing a game, which is annoying.
I hold on to X for nostalgia sake. I can't let go the memories of the good old days. We've come too far to call it quits. When things ain't right, I know just what to do, where to go, and what to touch, to make it right. Probably the same reasons a few will never let go of X.
"What about X is keeping you on that system?" AwesomeWM. I know I can configure other wms to make it like my current config but I really do not feel like learning another's config style just to get what I can have on X. Also NVIDIA gpu. Wanna build an all AMD rig but that's a ways down the line so currently we stay on X
Is there actually any benefit to having an AMD CPU on Linux?
@@Ryan-ct3rv to my knowledge they're just easier to use because of AMD's open source cooperation, same with their gpus. Otherwise though I'm not sure, and I could be wrong as I don't keep up with the nitty gritty of CPU/GPU stuff.
Xorg had nearly caught up to Windows, performance-wise, in the gaming sphere. Which caused some dev to decide that _now_ was the time to migrate the entire global UNIX community to a new display server, Wayland... and the undertaking would not be measured in months and years, but in geologic time.
...And they lived happily ever after. The end.
Xorg fails with my 3 monitors, Wayland works. I have no problems with it, but I don't tinker like others.
We need X11 revival
When something become stable and perfectly usable, at that same moment linux developers mark this thing outdated.
A lot of the legacy stuff linux/open source has sat on for the past decades don't tend to map well to modern hardware and/or modern computer user needs/wants. There's a lot of catch up in many areas going on (maybe slower and rougher than would be nice, but desktop linux is also super low priority, so it's always starving for labor resources) that is resulting in a lot of these flipping of different packages/interfaces to better match these needs. Like how pulseaudio was almost a stepping stone to pipewire.
@@Aeduo well too bad that the sync model that wayland chose was already out of date before wayland even started
@@notuxnobux well yeah I don't know what that is but regardless it's why stuff must move fast and change frequently, because a lot of Linux desktop stuff has been like windows 98 era functionality since windows XP was popular.
Been sticking to X because input-leap doesn't work on Sway already. I replaced it with rkvm recently and I'm just happy to use a modern graphical stack. I think it's a big deal and anyone interested in computer graphics should be excited about that to be honest.
input-leap! I'm still running barrier, lol
This is also the reason I still have to use X.
I typically use Wayland but I use barrier to work on my work provided Mac. rkvm doesn't yet provide Mac support and barrier/synergy/input-leap all still lack wayland support.
I'd love to use wayland, however I can't get it to work on my Nvidia GPU. I have to use CUDA at work, so non-Nvidia GPUs are not an option for me
Same issue, I use X based virtual machine with gpu passthrough, my host system is pure Wayland Gentoo, speed and latency are excellent, for not 24/7 work with nvidia it is perfect
Ironically: One reason is that especially lightweight, window manager based setups can be made astonishingly resilient in practice, usually breakages can be manually caught without there being a complete session loss. Put a line starting some simple terminal emulator after your wm line in xinitrc, and you can manually restart a window manager if something goes wrong. screen locker crashing? In many environments (relatively trusted office for example) leaving a session open is preferable to annihilating it. Talking of screen lockers - I consider it a feature that a sysadmin can stop one with a simple kill eg if someone accidentally left a shared machine (eg a control console for an actual machine-y machine) locked. But for me the main "political issue" for me is still the network transparency concept - something the time of which has not yet fully come, rather than gone, and it's worse enough xorg let a lot of it rot, wayland treating it as a second class thing a priori seems even more backwards. Oh, and it also doesn't help Wayland has become so associated with GNOME, and seems to haven taken up a lot of "demand respect while disrespecting the user" attitude from it...
Waypipe works better for things I tried it with than current-day X network forwarding. I agree that it should have been a 1st party feature though.
Wayland is gnome centric because many of the alternatives have ignored Wayland.
Wish I could give you a double thumbs up.
Network transparency isn't even a second class citizen in Wayland.
I agree with your points so much! I've been using X11 since 1993 in college, and it always seemed incredibly elegant from a technical standpoint. I love that the window manager is just another client, and you can actually kill your window manager and start a different one without disturbing any of your applications.
Network transparency is another thing that makes X11 so elegant. I hate that it's a second-class thing in Wayland. And, I noticed that even with Waypipe, you can't interoperate between machines of different endianness. To me, this is a huge problem from a theoretical/elegance point of view. (Admitted, it's less likely to be a practical problem, since little-endian seems to have won the endianness wars.)
Also, X11 had the ICCCM to specify how clients should interoperate with each other and with the window manager. Last time I looked into the technical details of Wayland, I believe that they were saying that Wayland didn't have any way of handling concepts like the clipboard, and that would be left up to the desktop environment. So that makes it sound like you can't necessarily cut-and-paste between GNOME and KDE applications, which seems crazy.
The only reason I use Wayland is because Minecraft runs way smoother compared to X11.
Really? I've never tried, all I know Minecraft is way(land) better on Linux than on windows, do you use AMD?
that is unexpected, because java runs in xwayland no?
For me it is the opposite, because in my case I have to put the game in fullscreen with a lower resolution to have a better performance, and it is not possible with Wayland. Also, I feel like even in windowed mode it gets less frames per second, maybe because my computer has to use software rendering, and it ends up interacting in a different way with Wayland.
@@feliperodrigues2069have you tried using gamescope? It can solve a lot of windowing / resolution related issues
I have used XFCE for years, and I don't see me changing any time soon, simply because I am comfortable with it, even though I have no problem with wayland
My experience with Wayland is mostly the same as most people here (the bad experiences - NVidia doesn't actually show anything, or it freezes, or it does something weird. On the few occasions that it worked, tearing and not detecting monitors was the rule).
The problem, for me, is that none of the merits of Wayland matter - if we have a protocol that's old, worse, and staled (X), it's still better than a newer one, better, faster, and in active development but that _doesn't work_. To be honest, there's not even a _choice_ here - I either have a graphical env, or I don't...
As an Nvidia user, Wayland still is somewhat pain, so I see the points that was mentioned. But oh well, sometimes it's better to nag developers about supporting Wayland, since even if the tooling is mature for it, if no one shows any kind of support for it, then why would developers spend the time adding support for it?
Maybe just keep the disruption down a little as to not leave a bad taste to the developers.
Nvidia is the biggest issue imo for Wayland at the moment. I mean, there's a reason why Linud Torvalds gave the bird to Nvidia back in 2010...
@@cameronbosch1213companies support what makes them money. When AMD came out with it's cuda equivalent it was Linux only. ROCm only came to Windows this year and it originally launched in 2016. Why was it Linux only for the longest time? Because that's what the servers and supercomputers AMD was powering were running and that's where they were making most of their money. Nvidia was for the longest time s gaming GPU company, Linux has up untill recently been around 1% of the market. They had as much reason to support Linux as AMD had to bring ROCm to Windows. Remember, all companies do what's best for them, not you. No company is on your side, they're all on their own side, you're just the suker they got to pay for the privilege of using their stuff or services. That includes Nvidia, it also includes AMD and intel.
Why should the end user suffer because developers want to force something on them? Is Linux a desktop OS or just a toy for developers to piss about with?
@@NH-ij8dz It's a tool for corporations to use. Desktop linux tends to be a bad joke. Not even an after thought in kernel development and the distros that do exists then to be aimed at server admins to make their lives easier by not having to move from Windows/mac to linux and back. Seriously. Why do you think ms allows you to install an entire terminal only linux distro in your windows install? So that they an stop sysadmins from moving over to a linux desktop.
There are only two types of linux desktop distros, those aimed at sysadmins - usually supported by big corporations - and those aimed at average users - usually made by programmers in their spare time as side projects - one might call these toys indeed. But at the end of the day, the money is behind those distros that are tools.
Well, at that point, Linux is *still* choice.
The reason I'm using X has roots in why I'm using Linux. I'm looking at the configuring process as a long-term investment - I spend time to understand and configure a tool, then I could use it for years, while being able to fix any problems in minutes. I'm a dwm user for that same reason. I don't really want to rewrite everything to dwl, learning about Wayland etc, especially if it is not very strong
Using dead technologies is a bad long term investment from the jump, your planning is flawed.
I didn't realise I wasn't using Wayland until I checked. When I looked into it I found that the MATE Desktop, which is my favourite, only has partial support for Wayland completed so far. I'm running Fedora 38 and trying to get used to KDE Plasma so I can get the full Wayland experience. It's interesting to me that you mention FreeBSD has Wayland compatibility as FreeBSD was the first Unix-like alternative to Windows I tried before I discovered Linux. I think I may revisit it and see what has changed.
I am using XFCE (and sometimes IceWM) and I don't think that some marginal benefits of Wayland are worth switching to gnome and/or KDE. I didn't know that LXQT works with wayland and I am curios which WM they use by default in that case. Also, there is probably some program that just doesn't work with Wayland and I don't want to find out which one it is by it breaking.
Similar story here: just waiting for Cinnamon to support it.
I was on Wayland, but I switched back to Xorg. Why? Because when I started a full-screen game, sometimes there was a grey strip at the top of my screen covering the game. Not always. And closing and restarting the game almost every-time resolved the issue. My guess is that it was the Gnome top-panel that somehow didn't behave nicely.
Anyway: I don't want to leave Gnome, and switching back to Xorg resolved the issue without any disadvantage. So yeah... Wayland might be superior, but it still sucks in practice.
If there is anyone that recognizes this behaviour on Gnome@Wayland and knows a way to resolve this, I'm more than happy to switch back.
i was using dwm before i tried switching to wayland. i first tried dwl but really missed the extensive patch set from the suckless site. then i tried sway which was quite enjoyable but i definitely prefer the dynamic tiling workflow better than manual. back on x with dwm as of now.
DWL is a weird one, you can simply never make the DWM experience on Wayland until all those existing patches have been cloned
Still waiting for xfce wayland support, that honestly the only big thing keeping me on X, though I would really love if the streaming issues on wayland would be fixed before then.
Well you're in luck! xfce announced recently that they, might start thinking about possibly starting wayland support if a dev was interested in working on it, so in, you know, another 10 years or so there might be an alpha!
@@entelin xfce is expecting to have wayland support on the next release
@@entelin what I ask to xfce is being stable and reliable.
I don't care at all about "new features" or some "flashy" stuff...
It it take 10 years for xfce to support wayland, then no problem at all for me... X and XFCE are working fine for my need ...
Desktop graphics should be comprised of a display manager, composite manager and a window manager or a composite window manager working together to place graphics on the monitor. Wayland is a display compositer so the programming on the Wayland platform takes a whole different approach from traditional desktops, missing components and common apis that exist right across Windows , Mac and X/Linux have to be reimplemented for Wayland which is like reinventing the wheel
I switched to Wayland like 6 months ago on Arch. I had issues with only 2 softwares : Krdc (which I use really rarely) and smplayer (now works... wasn't when I switched). Otherwise it's the same experience with eventually better touchpad gestures on Plasma on Wayland.
On Smplayer, I just tested again last week, and it still bugs out. Are you referring to a specific version (flat/snap/etc.)? Because as of today, smplayer is a mess under wayland on my rig.
Finally finished installing Gentoo on my laptop, and as always, I would install Xorg. The reason being that 1. There is no official fork of dwm, st, and dmenu 2. What would be the equivalent to startx? 3. What would be the equivalent to setxkbmap?
I need all these components without compromise, and I honestly didn't find any information on this.
I still use X, and I don't plan on changing until it's absolutely necessary. Only a few of my tests in a VM worked at all, and the experience was horrible (bad graphics/fonts, double mouse pointers, etc..) ... but most importantly Im an XFCE/bspwm user and so I'd have to downgrade to Gnome, KDE, or Sway, and I'm just not willing to use any of those.. I have significant time invested in my desktop setup and my custom tools and although Im willing to do the work of replicating them in Wayland, I don't feel like it's ready yet and/or the tools I used in X won't be implemented. Also I use xrdp on my local network and, to my knowledge, that won't be possible with Wayland. Things might be different if I could think of even 1 advantage of Wayland that would benefit me, and I don't care about the security advantages because I am on a closed network. I mainly use Debian stable and Arch, so I dont think my existing setup is under immediate threat, I just hope the Wayland experience improves and the tools are developed and tested before I have to switch.
No window shading or mouse gestures in Plasma, no switching for me and you can't change my mind.
I tried switching to the proprietary nvidia driver on my laptop. KDE Plasma Wayland components started crashing on startup, but interestingly, sway worked relatively fine. On my desktop, I don't have much of a choice between Wayland and X, because my display is 4K 120Hz, but X caps out at 4K 60Hz.
My college does student services appointments remotely through zoom. Zoom says it works on wayland...which is kind of true...sort of. It's not good enough to rely on for important Zoom appointments so I just leave it on Xorg for now.
Nvidia being nvidia is still keeping me from wayland 🙃
On 353.99 driver, every single game I run has UNBEARABLE screen tearing (like so bad you can see it from a distance, it is BAAAAAD). Supposedly the next driver will fix it and I'll try swapping back once that is in my repo.
I can't switch since I use a window manager and all of them on wayland can't function with nvidia
nvidia is amazing, im in the opposite problem, kde/gnome crashes each time i sleep my pc in both x11/wayland, gotten hyprland working, with some minor annoyances, eg, all electron apps crashes each sleep, but atleast hyprland resumes, wooh nvidia -.-
@@istasi5201 You have to enable the PreserveVideoMemoryAllocations option. Look at arch wiki on how to do that. Otherwise the nvidia gpu will cleanup video memory on suspend and most applications break when that happens (except x11 without a compositor).
Yeah I have given up on Nvidia. I no longer use it for my Work Machine. **insert Linus giving middle finger here**
@@istasi5201 so my problem is probably Nvidia. On KDE/X11 sometimes when waking up from sleep there's no output and my system locks up, really f-ing annoying.
I’ve been using X for one reason: discord. It’s not that screensharing has been an issue, or that it doesn’t render right, it’s that when I’m typing for some unexplainable reason there’s about 0.25-0.5 seconds of delay, which is more than enough to make me have an insane amount of typos. I’ve largely had no issues with gaming under Wayland with Linux native games and games under proton, but with how much I talk with friends on Discord via text, that amount of typos wins me the “Linux is dumb” award in the friend group
I will switch to wayland when I'm ready. I'm in niche that are still X hold-outs - Mostly hardware issues, some desktop reconfiguration issues, and a couple minor software issues. The hardware issue is the main thing holding me back currently. I'd also have to completely switch my desktop environment out to use Wayland as my current environment which I've tailored to perfection for my workflow for the last 10 - 15 years - my current window manager has zero wayland support. The software issues aren't really holding me back anymore as they've been solved to the point where everything I need is *mostly* useable, and the stuff that isn't can easily be worked around. Even if the hardware issues get rectified, I won't be switching until I get a new system, because I don't want to reconfigure the current one unless I absolutely have to. I'll get a new one, and try and set up a workable setup on that one, but keep using this one for everyday tasks until the new one gets comfortable.
I am pretty much locked into Linux Mint Mate. I will use Wayland when Clem takes us there.
I heard from Joshua Strobl (from Solus) that MATE is probably dying. They seem to be stagnating. I would look at Xfce; it feels like about 90% of what MATE was but much more up to date. Heck, it's more customizable too! You can make Xfce look like MATE if you want to.
I use X because I like my window manager (LeftWM), I have an nvidia graphics card, and I don't think switching would give me anything substantial for my daily driving. Wayland might work just as fine, but I see no reason to go through the effort of switching.
Thanks! I've tried using Wayland many times over the past few years, especially since the push to do so, but always have problems with one thing or another and always seem to fall back on X. This is across multiple different distros, DEs, WMs, and use cases. Sadly mostly due to Nvidia or other specific hardware of course, yeah some things can be dealt with, while other things can't. We'll see how the next few years shake out.....:)
They will pry my xsessions out of my cold, dead, fingers.
Xorg developers made wayland. There is not much to say about it.
Thanks for your fair approach to this topic.
I've never had an X related issue on my current system, I will not change something that works until I'm absolutely 100% sure that there is no (and I mean none) X feature that Wayland can't do, that Wayland proves to be as stable as X has been, that the majority of people use Wayland, that it is supported for drivers by all of the big manufacturers and that it's better than X for my use case, I won't switch until then. call me crazy but I like the stability of something I've never had a problem with. why would I change if something isn't better than what I'm using, even just as good isn't good enough. it has to be better, so there's no way I'll switch any time soon, because rn Wayland is "worse" than X in the sense that it doesn't support every feature and it's not the primary target.
PS: I do really like Wayland, and it's evolution has been amazing, I'm harsh with all my software choices.
I use X on some machines because Wayland just gives a black screen, or randomly crashes. I could spend days trying to fix it, but from my point of view, I already have. By switching back to X. Of course the real solution is to never buy nvidia again, and as these machines die over time, the problem will solve itself.
Switched to a KDE/Wayland session when Budgie started having issues remembering window size/position (pretty sure that's a bug that got fixed in Mutter 45, but Ubuntu still ships 44). The only real comfort problem was the lack of desktop-wide gamma adjustment (like xgamma), but at least for video playback I could alias mpv to tweak gamma on startup if launched under Wayland. The weird problem I had on Wayland was that Fedex's package tracking system just breaks, no matter if I tried on Firefox or Chromium - but forcing the browser to GDK_BACKEND=x11 would work (mostly; it would still break sometimes). The semi-critical problem I had was that AntiMicroX just could not detect my Logitech joystick under Wayland. That might be an SDL2 issue, but I don't know for sure. For the most part, I could live with the quirks so long as I knew the workaround for it.
The critical problem, and the one which more or less pushed me back onto KDE/X11, was that some combination of Wayland and the Arc A770 really didn't like HDMI renegotiation on display changes, and my monitor would just shut off or freeze and all input methods would lock up and not come back on if something else in the chain (like my TV) turned on, leading me to have to hard reset. No such problem at all on X11. I really don't know whether to blame that on KWin or the va-driver.
As a casual user. The only reason I know my Distro uses Wayland is when something breaks at the error message tells me that a library isn't supported on Wayland.
The singular reason I still use X11 is because for some reason KWin crashes a lot on wayland, whenever I connect / disconnect a screen (wich I do once a day) and commonly when creating or destroying contexts (windows), also when resizing windows.
Same
Gnome + Wayland + Nvidia blob driver, crashes my computer (Xorg is stable). Once that stops happening (I will try again in a few months), or I upgrade to some AMD GPU, then I'll use Wayland.
Yeah on my desktops it has some flashing issues, though it has improved a lot from a year ago, but still using xorg for now.
You can do gnome + wayland + mesa
It's amazing how much has changed in 6 months: cinnamon and mate have an experimental wayland and xfce has an actual plan now
I use X because some applications don't work properly together with the application dock on plasma. For example, when I use libreoffice calc or writer, the dock symbol is a generic symbol, but not the symbol of calc or writer.
The mouseover of XKCD 963 says it all (I tried to post the link, but YT just blocked it in record speed)
wayland breaks my laptop mouse buttons. normally xinput settings can be used to apply machine quirks (and distros have a large set of them), but wayland intentionally has no machine quirks - a computer that is not autodetected correctly can simply not be used.
Still running X with Qtile, but only because all my attempts get Qtile running on Wayland have failed (certainly due to my own ignorance). If you are aware of any tutorials that contain more detail than the Qtile documentation, I'd love to know about it.
Still on X, I tried Garuda with Sway a few months ago and Steam was a little buggy on my system. That could be Sway, or even my system. Then there's video production, OBS and KDEnlive need to work properly, I've heard you talk about your issues with OBS, but not sure if KDEnlive is ok on Wayland. Right now I'm running AwesomeWM and might be willing to try qTile on Wayland again, but like you mentioned, having to rebuild my config will be a pain.
I have a Debian/Xfce desktop running on VMware ESXi, mainly accessed via VNC tunnelled over SSH. To my knowledge this setup will only work on X.
I also have a local copy of Debian/Gnome running on VMware Fusion on my Mac. This will happily run Wayland, however... for some reason Wayland breaks Fusion's cut and paste (text/files) functionality (copy from Mac into VM and vice versa via simple drag and drop), so this ended up back on X also.
Both niche cases on infrequently used systems, so it doesn't really matter either way to me (and for the ESXi one, I could even run it text only, the graphics is just a convenience).
I still use Xorg for work. My company uses Zoom. Zoom works on Wayland, but screen sharing on Zoom does not seem to work on Wayland, but it does on Xorg. When Zoom on Wayland allows me to share my screen, I'll switch.
There is a kde program called "XWayland Video Bridge" that supposedly fixes this.
Running Xorg w/ bspwm on Arch linux. Have tried wayland w/ hyprland and KDE plasma, found slightly more input delay and stability issues when gaming (Nvidia GPU.) If Nvidia ever implements variable refresh rate support on wayland into their gpu driver (the option is available in the plasma settings, but it doesn't do anything) I will most likely switch to wayland.
On xorg I also don't get variable refresh rate as I use multiple monitors and don't feel like switching them off every time I start a game, but I rarely see any tearing in games and its overall a more stable and responsive experience (just for gaming - I much prefer wayland on any non gaming or non nvidia setup.)
Same VRR would make me use Wayland 100%
I'm on AMD, so I do have the option of VRR on Wayland, however when I tried it on Sway, it... actually hurt. The screen would dim whenever nothing was happening and abruptly brighten the moment I touched something or something else on-screen changes, only to go right back to dim a moment later. It was not comfortable to use or even look at. I was hoping that it'd been addressed since I last tried it, but nope. Sway issue's still open since March 2020, and a common note in the discussion is that it's a driver bug and for the driver to fix.
@@angeldude101 Thats good to know I was thinking of picking up an AMD GPU just to have working VRR. From what I read now it works fine on the AMD side in kwin or a patched version of mutter, but as you said still issues with wlroots compositors (sway, hyprland, river, etc.) So ya both AMD and Nvidia Linux users that wish to use a wlroots compatible twm with functioning VRR support appear to be waiting for driver fixes.
currently in the process of setting up my Wayland setup on my PC, and a bit struggling with a proper hyprland config to get close to my awesome setup as I have on my laptop.
Takes a bit of time though, but seems worth it for the long haul. Running endeavorOS for the most part and replaced almost every piece of proprietary stuff to the best of my time and efforts. 👍🏽👍🏽
Slowly trying to switch to river from bspwm, but it's very difficult because river doesn't expose the same information that is exposed in bspwm, so my status bar is junk. This, with the hard to understand (for me) documentation on river tilers makes it difficult to get the same window layouts and workflows that my muscle memory is used to from basically 5 years of bspwm (only allowing you to cycle between next and previous kills me).
I use X11 because I'm on MATE on my desktop with Xfce on my laptop, so I see no point in switching to Wayland at this time. No idea when MATE will get Wayland support, and honestly X11 works just fine for me, so I have no real reason to switch.
i use Plasma and have both versions (X11 & Wayland) on the system ... but ... when it comes to daily work, i start X11 ... because ... i need color management. With X11 this is a no brainer, but, with wayland there is no chance to get a consistent color management.
I am also in the Nvidia camp, so right now Wayland is a no go. I check in every so often, but when things like Night Light don't work, or apps stop rendering updates (like KDE's task bar...) it pretty much makes it a no go for me.
And since money doesn't grow on trees, switching to AMD isn't an option unless one of their GPUs literally falls into my hands, which is unlikely to say the least...
I'd love to use Wayland, but it doesn't matter how much technical benefits it has... When it results in a broken experience for me.
I finally tried Wayland last week on Gentoo with KDE. Drag & drop between applications didn't work. There were graphical glitches of what looked like corrupt data in a horizontal band for a frame occasionally. The task manager had performance issues showing me the windows, and there were log messages about the compositor being slow on this
A couple of days ago tried out Wayland in Gnome. Immediately ran into visual problems and didn't see any improvements over X.
I last tried wayland last month. In my own personal experience, everything had actually about a second of input delay. Programs would take a minute to open, and everything tore all the time. With my particular configuration, wayland is *busted*. I'd love to stop using it, but I can't yet.
Me: Sees who wrote the Boycott Wayland post.
Also me: Aw shit, *here we go again.*
I love Probono, he's an endless source of comedy
I can't wait to switch to Wayland!
Just waiting on Synergy and all the DWM patches to get ported to DWL. Any year now... or decade...
Wayland's technical merits make it easier to develop -> every developer chooses to work on Wayland -> Wayland has a monopoly over developer effort -> Wayland's technical merits don't matter.
How can someone write down this chain of thought and not realize that it contradicts itself?
I tried using Plasma+Wayland all summer on my NVIDIA 1080ti, it was SO CLOSE to actually being a good experience I was just praying that another NVIDIA driver update would solve my issues, it never did.
Windows flickering, frames displaying out of order on Xwayland apps, and the panel would just stop drawing at random leaving me losing track of time once my clock stopped updating. Most Wayland native software worked well enough, Xwayland had major flickering issues. Gaming was far more performant on Plasma+Wayland than Gnome+Wayland.
Eventually I gave up and installed Windows to great pain, it sucks hard, but it actually functions properly with my GPU. Turns out the best Linux Distro for NVIDIA is Windows...
I mean, Linus Torvalds had a point. 😂
On Wayland I've had some shenanigans with attempting to install RTPs on my rpgmaker wineprefix which just weren't a problem in x11, and I play substantial amounts of RPGMaker games.
I would rather be on Wayland, but nothing gaming-related has broken because I'm on X11, and I've had gaming-related bugs because of being on Wayland and it's kind of that simple for me.
I still use Xorg because it’s quite buggy using my 3070. It’s not unusable, but when Xorg works without annoying bugs … I’ll continue using it until those bugs no longer occur.
I'm in the camp of I just want a desktop the works for what I need without a bunch of fiddling. I'm on ubuntu LTS, so I've tried both and I can't really tell the difference, Except on one key feature that I use almost every day.... With X, I can extract archives by drag-and-drop, and with Wayland it quietly fails. Till this basic functionality is fixed, I'll never consider Wayland ready for prime-time.
I can't switch to sway, I love the fact that they straight up refuse to support nvidia drivers, I can't even boot into sway while using the nouveou drivers right now.
I love wayland too, especially the foot terminal emulator. I just can't switch because of all of the nvidia issues. I also can't afford to buy an amd gpu since I'm living on a schollarship
I see myself with what about compatibility crowd, but I am not turned off of it, I just want my PC running smoothly and without any problems with anything
I used Wayland for a while. Games started having issues where the mouse would freeze when holding. Decided to switch to i3 and I find it just works a little nicer for me
I wrote X code back in the Motif days around 1990. It didn't take long to figure out that X was not good. Important design decisions were just wrong. There's no fixing it. Mistakes were made the first day and everything since has been working on ways to mitigate that.
I still use X only because my gpu doesn't quite like wayland. Overall I would like to use wayland at some point , whenever i can get proper hw support; as for X , yea it works but the main issue is it is old, and something has to give eventually.
Finally succumbed to a Fedora evangelist and tried F37/Gnome/Wayland. Totally surprised. Butter smooth and glitch-free. A far cry from my early use of (very buggy) Fedora 9.
Looking forward to XFCE support of Wayland.
I don't care if Wayland "is superior". X11 works. I want my computer to work and do all the things I need it to. Its for this reason I daily drive macOS. I want to use my computer not tinker with it. Wayland needs to be more than just better than X. It needs to give me everything X does plus more, and then X needs to stop working. THEN and ONLY THEN will there be a reason to switch. People don't care about the reasons its better. It's that mentality that makes the Linux community so toxic sometimes. (I do use Linux for my gaming computer) The Linux community needs to take a page out of Microsoft & Apple 's respective books. Think how easy rosette2 made the transition for apple silicon. Or how windows 11 can still work with DOS programs. Updates should NEVER break the users system.
I use a 3 y/o Manjaro Linux XFCE installation with Xorg daily - I need to get my daily LeetCode challenge done, do some work for my CS study and read my emails and it just works. Will I look for something different when I buy a new PC? Probably. But for now my current setup just works. I'm not going around tooting my horn about why you should stay on Xorg though - that would just be weird.
I do video production on Wayland on arm. Never did hear of anyone else doing it. I love Wayland now, took a while for it to be good.
Gentoo is my daily driver, it allows me to have both X11 and Wayland support. Every once in awhile I will load my desktop using Wayland. It looks pretty good, but I also use some accessibility features like sticky keys. And every time that I go in and it doesn't work I just log out and go back to X. I'm sure they will get it eventually, it really does seem like it's the last thing keeping me from switching.
In linux since 1999 or even a bit earlier. In the second camp. Don't care, I'll have it when my current distro switches to it.
On KDE.
honestly the only thing keeping me on x strictly speaking is being able to use custom modelines for some of my (very old) monitors. yes there's workarounds but i'm not sure i have the patience for that kind of tinkering anymore (i wouldn't be putting up with gnome whenever i try wayland otherwise ;v;)
VSCode had a frankly unacceptable amount of flickering and my cursor would randomly disappear on Wayland. When I switched back to X it worked perfectly.
Fedora w/ RTX 3080ti on proprietary drivers.
I have just two reasons I won't switch yet.
1. I am a very latency sensitive gamer, games like osu on OpenGL with wine are fps capped even after allowing Wayland tearing. And even native games, like osu lazer, feel stuttery with added latency.
2. Global Shortcuts still not possible for Wayland Native applications
Wine has merged the 6th part of Wayland suppport so maybe this OpenGL issue disappears soon.
another reason for why some people won't move to wayland would that some people just don't the modern look and design of most de/wm. That even if you rice it as well.
Whenever xorg becomes worse than Wayland is when I'm switching, I have zero reason to switch especially since I use dwm.
If dwm dies or moves to Wayland is when I'll switch (don't mention hyprland, I don't like ricing that much anyways).