This Could Be Bad ...
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
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► Chapters:
00:00 - Wayland on the Linux Desktop
00:29 - What is Wayland?
00:48 - Wayland breaks stuff ... or does it?
01:43 - Wayland and NVIDIA
02:18 - Missing features and limitations
03:18 - How is it today?
05:24 - It's Stability
06:02 - Other Desktop Environments
07:08 - Conclusion
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► Description Tags:
wayland vs x11, wayland vs xorg, wayland linux, fedora 40 wayland, plasma 6 wayland, kde plasma 6, linux wayland vs xorg, linux wayland 2023, switching to wayland, wayland is bad, wayland by default, michael horn
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#linux #opensource #discussion - Hry
3:04 Reminder: *VSYNC =/= FPS CAP!* It's an extremely important distinction!
- The Windows approach is to use *FIFO* (First In - First Out) presentation mode: the first frame rendered is the one that's going to be displayed when monitor's next refresh cycle comes. Hence there's no point in rendering more frames during that period between finishing first frame and displaying it - we get a frame cap.
- The Wayland approach is to use *mailbox* presentation mode: frames are being rendered without a frame cap and when monitor's refresh cycle comes it's the _last_ fully finished frame that gets displayed, which is way more recent than the first frame.
_It's still not as fast as tearing, but it's pretty close, and definitely miles ahead of the Windows' frame-capped experience!_
Let's assume you're rendering at over 3x the monitor Hz:
- FIFO will show you the 1st frame rendered, which is awfully old by the time it displays on screen;
- Mailbox will show the 3rd frame, which is 2 frames-worth of time newer than the 1st frame
Things worth noting:
Mailbox presentation mode _can_ be enabled on Windows at least on Nvidia, I think only for DX9-11 games, and they call it "Fast sync".
Wayland's mailbox, as well as mailbox in general has its caveats:
- mailbox might lead to microstutter at FPS around double of your monitor's Hz (you preferably want a stable FPS=~3xHz or even higher). It's especially noticeable in racing games.
- on Nvidia KDE in particular: fullscreen XWayland windows get framecapped, you need to either make your game windowed, run as a native Wayland window or wait for the 545 driver which is supposed to fix this bug
Windows in particular recently uses Flip Model composition for DX11 and DX12 games, but recently some game developers use a interop with OpenGL or Vulkan for stuff like HDR support, and GPU drivers recently have been adding features (and in the case of AMD, stuff that's always on) that convert Vulkan games to use that. That's probably why as of the recent driver updates on Windows, AMD Fluid Motion Frames (or Hypr-RX) works with Vulkan games and emulators. Flip Model presents the final output onto the screen without any further blit operations, which have a latency cost, and that's why for a while Borderless/Windowed modes people said were "unresponsive" compared to full-screen exclusive mode, which is simply untrue now.
Gamescope gets closer to directly flipping games onto a screen, but out of the box, Vulkan and OpenGL don't have an equivalent.
FastSync is nVidia’s marketing term for mailbox present mode, AMD has similar option, and Windows drivers had support for it for years, but it’s an opt-in because backwards compatibility
A quick correction/update on the Cinnamon situation; according to a blogpost made by Clem (the leader of Mint), work has started on Cinnamon on Wayland and will be available as an experimental option in 21.3!
My issue with Wayland is that it's _just_ a protocol. Having separate protocols and implementations isn't a bad thing, but what is a bad thing is the _many_ desktop environments and window managers made for X11 that were able to focus on providing a good desktop and could rely on Xorg to actually handle the dirty work under the hood. With Wayland, that dirty work is suddenly thrust onto the desktop environments and window managers, meaning every single one needs to either implement their own server themselves, or import a 3rd party implementation. For the big environments like Gnome and KDE, this isn't a problem, but for just about everyone using something other than those, it absolutely is. There have been smaller desktops built using WLRoots, but without the funding an attention that XOrg, KDE, or Gnome got, I have doubts that it and the desktops built using it will ever be as mature and featureful as the alternatives.
Sincerely - Someone who tried to use Windows as though it had a tiling window manager since before I knew what Linux was. I can't stand my windows overlapping each other.
"or import a 3rd party implementation"
technically that what relying on Xorg was/is too
The problem is that Xorg being more than just a protocol was kind of the whole problem with it to begin with.
Yep! Still waiting for resolving the fractional scaling issue. As for now, I've enabled text scaling in GNOME Accessibility settings. Makes fonts bigger on my 14-inch 1080p laptop.
The biggest problem right now really seems to be XWayland scaling right now.
I could imaging that Gnome isn't even necessarily trying to fix it if they opt for a Wayland only future 🤔
good progress being done. im really hyped for plasma 6, it seems like lots of small important things are being looked at, which is great to see.
Times change. By now I'm daily driving Debian 12 with Wayland (Gnome). And it's a great experience!
Wayland came natively on my Fedora KDE Plasma. After about 9 months, it is 95% perfect. Pop-up menus sort of disappear sometimes but the items reappear when the mouse cursor passes over them. Doesn't happen much so not a big issue.
Team Wayland!
Team Wayland x2
Team Wayland x3 :333333333333
Team Wayland x4
f the x11
Team X Wayland
I'll be honest, most of my issues with Wayland were NVIDIA specific, or strange stuff like Steam not updating the mouse cursor position when using a Steam Controller or emulating a mouse, or Sunshine (A streaming client for Moonlight) constantly asking for a screen to be shared through Pipewire when it starts (even if you already told it to remember that). Or there not being a good way of disabling the DualShock/DualSense trackpad emulating a mouse (like on the Steam Deck).
There's also Steam and Spotify not respecting fractional DPI scaling on KDE Wayland for some reason, or the weird UI issues with GOverlay, but those are the most of my issues with it. I'd actually argue that fractional scaling is better on Wayland than Windows simply for the fact that I don't have to constantly mess with DPI compatibility settings to get games displaying right on my 1440p monitor or 4K TV.
NVIDIA is probably the same issue that's holding back SteamOS 3 from being released publicly, because based on what I've seen with HoloISO and their proprietary drivers, and how the DKMS module only supports the 20 series cards and onwards, it's frankly embarrassing.
Great video. I support Wayland as the future but i also appreciate an honest take on the whole thing.
Dont forget, you cant use push to talk on discord with wayland unless you have the discord window active and/or a xwayland window. This is a major deal breaker
X11" will never be dropped, it will always be supported with XWayland. What may be dropped is the Xorg implementation.
exactly what i thought. this is the nature of open source - everyone does what he wants
Don't be too sure about XWayland always being there. XWayland is still a security concern and less desirable than native Wayland apps. Various compositors have options to disable XWayland or are working on having that option.
I've recently switched from i3wm to SwayFX and was honestly really surprised how smooth everything is.
60hz monitor or?
@@leonbishop7404 144+60
I've been an Arch/Qtile user for a long time, and recently started having issues on X11 session and so moved to the Wayland session, however still have 4 or 5 things that didn't work even though speed was much improved. In fact it was so smooth that I immediately decided I was done with X11, I'm not a gamer on PC. I then tried Arch/Hyprland and mind blown, those few holdups I had work now, Hyprland is much easier to configure. So I'm full on Wayland now.
Sm, also a Arch/Hyprland user. Hyprland has come a long way and the devs have been working on it nonstop. it's great!
No granular per software permission yet...
I just switched back to X11 on my laptop. I had only tiny issues with Wayland, but they did bother me in the long run (WINE program windows starting in the background, VICE emulator not being able to play audio when unfocused ...). I never had any issue with X11 that using Wayland would solve. On my desktop I never bothered trying Wayland anyway. I'll stick to X11 until it's dead and buried.
This just shows how far user experiences on linux can diverge. I am on gnome under wayland, on a laptop, using an EGPU, so by far not on an common (or natively stable) system, and i literally never had a crash because of wayland.
Oh, and the problem with OBS can be solved by just using gnomes build in screenshot tool's video tool.
There are still a few things that the compositor implementers need to do before I can daily drive Wayland, but hopefully they'll get there soon. However, I'm curious if you're also having problems with CZcams? I've found that if I try to open something in a new tab, so I don't have to reload the subs feed over and over again, that it gives me a nearly blank page with some grayed out elements at the top. The only way to get it to cold load is to enable an ad block and then it prevents me from playing the video, and if I turn off ad block then hit refresh it blanks again. Only way I've found for it to work is to click on to a content creators video list and then let it steal that tab. It's highly annoying because it breaks my usual flow.
I don't have that issues personally, so I can't confirm it unfortunately. I think it has more to do with CZcams itself being a single page website that dynamically loads content.
@@MichaelNROH Well, one day later and it's working again. I filed a bug report and sent a screenshot yesterday, so maybe that had something to do with it or they knew what they did wrong and me restarting the browser got the updated code. It seems like I'm always hitting edge cases though.
Hmmm. I hope the Wayland thing gets the love it deserves. It looks good so far.
as soon as ori was mentioned, i knew it's got to be a fellow austrian :D
Xorg is better for the time being as for Wayland its hope of becoming the best protocol has a long way to improve
I disagree, Xorg is worse in almost every way, except for app support, and even that's changing. Don't confuse support with the actual software.
@ ok but still we wish Wayland becomes the greatest display protocol in the future
@ worse in what? stop with that bullshit
I have not a bad experience with wayland using a amd gpu and gnome 45 with updated mutter on fedora 39 works quite well with pc games or at least with the ones I play. I mainly play ffxiv and diablo iv (steam version) and I have very positive experience. However with obs and screen casting I still get some small frame drops which causes my audio to skip or sound out of sync thats because the encoders it uses are shit and not that great... We also don't have the non free drivers for amd gpu so that sucks also we also don't have the non free encoders which is what we want to use with obs for good video recording.
Wayland is surely the way to go! Though I'm still suffering with gaming on it: I always have to hard reset my PC after trying to exit fullscreen or, some times, even quitting the game due to freezing...
I just hope that these issues will be gone by when the major distros decide to ditch X11 entirely
Mh, I'm not familiar with such issues but I doesn't surprise that this happens. If Fedora and Ubuntu follow through with their plans, than bugs need to be adressed now and not down the road
@@MichaelNROH 100% with you! We must not face the risk of having new Linux users getting scared when things go wrong with gaming/video editing/screen sharing and affirming that Linux is trash!
For me, X11 is not ready (and most likely never will be). I have two monitors with different refresh rates, and my high refresh rate monitor is being limited to 60hz on X11, no matter what, and it's just too much of an issue for me to use it.
xrandr. I have a 144Hz 1440p monitor and a 75Hz 1080p monitor and they both work great together at those settings
Screen tearing... ho god.. it was a pain, especially if we are on a twm
X11 isn't really being worked on anyhow. At least in comparison
@@classicrockonly That's what it tells you. In reality, your 144Hz monitor is being limited to 75Hz, because X11 doesn't support different refresh rates on different monitors as both monitors are actually just one big monitor to X11. Yes, there's the AsyncFlipSecondaries option that sort of "fixes" the issue, but then you'll notice that there will be A LOT of screen tearing! And I don't mean screen tearing while gaming. the tearing is everywhere. Whether you move a window around, scroll on a web page or while gaming, you will notice bad tearing.
the only way i was able to get this to work was force set the environment refresh rate to the refresh rate of the one of my highest monitor. my monitors have freesync and i haven't noticed any screen tearing. but it was very finicky to get to work and i had only been able to get it to work twice
I switch between Wayland and X11 months at a time. It's sad that many programs arent updated to work properly with Wayland, since its not just a drop in replacement. Most recently I had to go back to X11 because i was getting weird artifacts in Elden ring, and also needed Upwork time tracker support, which takes screenshots for validation
Wayland support has definately improved over the past year. I use a gtx 1660 super, and I was unable to get Hyprland to work before and even got myself stuck on a black screen upon boot because of an attempt to get it to work. Now it is working and really stable. I get about the same amount of crashes as I did on gnome xorg, which is almost never. I still get a lot of sutter when I play games, but I just switch to xorg when gaming. I use tmux for 99% of my work, so I just quit hyprland -> switch to gnome -> play games -> switch back to hyprland -> tmux attach and start working. I am really looking forward to mesa 24.1, so I can use nvk instead of the proprietary drivers. I hope those would be enough to make gamescope run for nvidia, and it would basically solve my problem.
Screen capturing has been a problem with me. Had to switch to the X11 Gnome session.
Discord sharing works just fine for me (All AMD NixOS 23.05) - games and all. If you're running on Ubuntu that might be the issue, they always manage to break wayland somehow: attempting to screenshare in slack on my work laptop (All AMD Ubuntu 22.04) outright crashes slack (also a few other electron apps).
KDE defaults to X11 on NixOS. Maybe that's why you're having no issues with Discord Screen Share. I ended up forcing the Wayland session in my flake. When I want to use Discord Screen Share, there's the Xwayland Video Bridge for that.
It’s not yet. Maybe in another year.
Have you tried it it?
Variable refresh rate is a compromise between no tearing and lowest latency. Where having tearing is purely to have the lowest latency as possible, it should be less noticeable the higher the framerate is.
Allowing Tearing is also useful if the game runs above your monitors refresh rate.
Since VRR doesn't work there anyway (max value)
@@MichaelNROH great you point out that VRR has an upper latency limit given it cannot run above the monitors refresh rate.
I do think at the same frame rate the latency difference between VRR and tearing is very minor which is why people then have VRR on for the cleaner frame when the game runs below the monitor's refresh rate.
Wich linux distro do you use with gnome on your last videos ?, Nice video!!
It's my default Debian 12 install. I have both Plasma and Gnome installed
You're saying these things as if they're a wayland issue, things like screen capture can easily be done using XDG portals. And VRR is a thing on Wayland, so yes there's obviously a way for Nvidia to implement it.
It's not ready. Had to switch manually to X11 after the KDE6 update. Too many graphical glitches and a lot of games don't work with Steam's Proton.
Applications should not be affected by the server, because the cleaner way to use their resources would be to ask the system and not the server. Imagine if the only way to programs record the screen was to ask the OS to record the screen. Then all the problems could be solved by the distro devs. It would be a lot safer too. Imagine if some program tries to use your webcam or log your keyboard without telling you.
An interesting thing you didn't talk about is gesture support and what it means for laptops. Basically, X11 doesn't have any so I consider it unusable in such environments. Three finger swiping to change workspaces or bring up the overwiev is INFINITELY better than doint Super + Alt + Arrows. Plus I bet most laptops have nothing to do with Nvidia so it feels like Wayland was made for the these devices.
This is absolutely true. X11 "gesture" support is a pale imitation of proper gestures. The only way to do it in X11 is to run some daemon that listens for touchpad gestures and then initiates key combinations whenever it detects a gesture. Notably, the X11 approach is all or nothing -- once you send off the key combination, the gesture finishes to completion. With Wayland you can swipe partway to "peek" at the neighboring workspace and then reverse direction back to the original workspace without ever fully switching to the other workspace. It's much, much smoother, more intuitive, and more natural.
I still don't know why the Wayland developers don't think of making a standard composer and API's. A lot of Wayland's problems would go away with that, but I guess the developers are more interested in letting others do their jobs.
Well, you know Weston? 😄
What I read about them from wayland and from other places is like a demonstration but not a solid base, basically it is an example not something that can be used, it still does not take away the fact that each DE and WM must make their own APIs
Weston is 100% of the official Wayland protocol, which is actually a subset of the real-world extensions. Ultimately your conclusion is correct: you'd have to be mad to daily drive Weston, or even use it as a base for your own project.
However, wlroots and smithay are exactly what you're asking for. They support 100% of the core protocol, 90+% of gnome/kde extensions, and then some. They even support more specialized extensions such as DRM leasing (VR).
i think they will do that eventually, they are busy working on adding features and fixing bugs, making sure the thing works right, its kind of a big project.
i've seen pretty cool projects like hyperland is pretty good, KDE works very well, gnome is probably the smoothest, it just lacks features I want to have.
i'm almost tempted to try and make my own window manager, maybe i can learn one or two thing.
But the problem is what you said, the protocol is not centralized enough. so you might end up with things wroking on kde that dont work on any other desktop. or something that works on one window manager that dose not work on other window managers.
my biggest problem now is screen capture, and screen sharing.
what I think the protocol should have offered, is some kind of permission system. instead of just not adding the features at all.
A standard compositor is just X11 all over again, which is what devs want to avoid. It makes no sense to do it.
x11 for now
Wayland when it is ready to use
So Wayland now, then.
I will probably use Wayland after I retire in about 10 years. By then, it may have almost caught up to X11 enough to be usable.
1:48 ****If you use the open source drivers. At least with my 2070, the proprietary drivers explode spectacularly with both KDE wayland and swaywm
nice vid man :)
@@MichaelNROHw h a t
@@sillygaby_It's Tux, the mascot of the Linux kernel!
have you tried ctrl-alt-f4 to fix wayland crash. Is it wayland or gnome problem?
I use fractional scaling at 1.88 in Ubuntu Unity in my 4k monitor. Don't worry you'll get there.
I stick to X11 because Zoom doesn't work well with Wayland.
They fixed screen sharing, it now uses pipewire properly. Try it again and if it works there you go
@dreaper5813 I managed to get it to work on Wayland. It literally involves using the Flatpak version and changing one line in a configuration file.
Debian 12 defaults to Wayland in KDE Plasma. So far is OK, but first time I couldn't understand why screen sharing doesn't work. For some reason Debian did not pre-install Pipewire, I ought to do it myself.
PipeWire is preinstalled. If you're talking about Discord Screen Share, that's not Debian's fault. Discord doesn't support Wayland and the devs don't give a F.
@@JerrySM64 It was not Discord, it was for Zoom - and yes, I confused the package. It was gstreamer1.0-pipewire that I needed to install. I should not rely on my memory.
im a linux pc gamer, so I cant chose wayland for the moment all the best performance still on X11 even using AMDGPU
@@dreaper5813Me too
Try the new Vulkan drivers that just came out.
At least with Radeon GPUs, I've had a great experience with Wayland in Fedora. Granted, I only run old games from my Linux partition using Wine. The rest of my time in Linux is spent in Firefox or running gcc in the terminal.
Question though: if we have a game that was made long ago and isn't maintained anymore, can we hope to have it run on wayland even if it was initially done for x11?
Depends. As long as XWayland is maintained and included with Distros, it doesn't matter.
After that it might become more difficult
@@MichaelNROHI doubt XWayland will be killed anytime soon, or ever. Even if it is killed by some mainstream distros, many will still probably offer it in their repos.
I could see this being a big problem for old native games. But running the Windows version through Proton once the Wine has its full native Wayland backend merged will be a workaround.
@@that_leaflet I had talk with a friend about it and we speculated in future games will target wine as their ABI instead of windows or libc.
Wayland isn't bad, it's still not ready for me. I experienced some visual glitches on KDE which I never had under X. Plus it still lacks automation tools like xdotool, visgrep and grabc.
Umm.. I don’t understand, I use hybrid graphics amd + nvidia laptop, arch kde being my first time on Linux and Wayland… I don’t have any problem with my system (???) is that not normal? Im playing just as I was on windows if not even better..
Dual Graphics work ok. What doesn't work sometimes, or what NVIDIA was adressing was stuff like offloading for example.
I'm not sure what exactly the current status is for most, but it used to be impossible to use the hdmi port with internal graphics, if it was wired to the external card
If you have a Nvidia Optimus laptop (where the Nvidia GPU passes frames from it to an AMD or Intel iGPU), then it's fine.
If you have a laptop with a MUX switch and then put the load on the dGPU, use an external monitor that runs a port directly to the Nvidia dGPU, or use a desktop with an Nvidia GPU, then problems may occur.
I personally had issues when KDE Plasma 5.27 was released, as I couldn't get Wayland to work _at all._ With 5.27.6, it now works, with an occasional panel freeze, which just requires two terminal commands to fix.
I tried Wayland and set my KDE display to my usual 125% UI scale... and then immediately switched back to X11. What a joke.
kde wayland is better than gnome wayland
That's true
KDE Plasma on Wayland actually has global hotkeys support, which is huge imo. So does Hyprland. GNOME... Well, they don't.
my monitor doesn't work properly on wayland, IDK why it just don't budge especially in KDE palsma, My monitor went crazy in wayland after somehow I corrected it using System Settings and setting refresh rate as 240hz. It was set to auto refresh rate. My gaming monitor don't support that feature though (IDK pairing with gpu should work or not since I dont have gpu and my monitor is gsync supported). It took 3-4 seconds to switch refresh rate and it remained blacked out for minutes until I switch to x11. I don't balme anyone here since I was using arch linux and I have to be ready to face anything.
I was better off with X11, the sad part was I lost latte dock. Even sad is I lost functionality of KDE plasma in X11, like screen locking bugs and window shadowing bugs.
Plasma 5 was very well made. But after update to plasma 6 I lost almost each and everything. Harsh reality hits, However I will switch to hyprland, hyprland not seem to have many issures for me at least. In nutshell people prefer stable softwares that maintained well and with less bugs.
5:20 if I understand the point correctly:
You claim that for example discord not using an existing feature (portals) is somehow the apis fault and not discords?
A user doesn't care about that. Yes, it's in Discord but if they don't fix it then it will hurt the user's experience on Linux, that's what this is about.
Xwayland is needed for dead or too hard to upgrade apps but new apps should target Wayland native. We need Wayland more than a lot of people know, as amazing as X11 is Wayland just provides a better future for desktop Linux. X11 provides a better right now.
I'm backing Wayland even if right now I don't use it due to Nvidia.
I hope that it's implementatios will not be hindering in any way.
If apps don't work anymore then and X11 is too complicated to be implemented by themselves, then we'll probably loose users.
@@MichaelNROH For the vast majority of users, wayland will work fine, so I don't think it's a big issue anymore. Gaming is getting better with leaps and bounds, and even HDR is support being worked on.
The thing is, X11 is a mess, and has been for a long time. It was a mess when the xorg fork happened, which aimed to fix it, but in reality, the architecture just doesn't suit modern hardware expectations.
I remember just how painful it was to have an X session with multiple screens that have different scaling needs, or how hacky compositors were in general, or how touchpad gestures were virtually impossible until elementary hacked it in for themselves. I just got a new laptop, and it's virtually unusable in X because of how bad its scaling and touchpad support is.
So I think that it's rather the opposite, if we don't replace X11 with wayland soon, we're going to be haemorrhaging users because X11 can't keep up with modern demands.
@MichaelNROH The thing is that the RTX 20 series and later from Nvidia already have a Vulkan 1.0 compliant FOSS driver set. In December of 2022, people were thinking that it would take several years to get to where the FOSS drivers are in December 2023. I wouldn't be surprised if by January 2025, gaming on Linux with FOSS Nvidia drivers mostly just works.
That being said, if you are unlucky enough to have the 9 or 10 series Nvidia GPUs, you may have to upgrade, as those may never have good driver support and Nvidia isn't even working on those modules anymore it seems. And while the FOSS maintainers are trying to get support, I'm not sure if it will ever be fully usable, unlike with AMD and Intel GPU Mesa drivers.
TL;DR, I would still get AMD Radeon or Intel Arc GPUs if I was buying a new desktop dGPU in 2024, however, Nvidia has put out some seriously better propietary drivers with the 545 series. Wayland mostly works with KDE Plasma 5.27.6 and later, whereas when 5.27.0 released, it was unusable with the then current Nvidia drivers in the Arch repos.
i'm looking to buy a gaming laptop. should I go with a rtx 3050 or a rx6500m?
both use ryzen 7 5800h cpu.
What are your needs
If you want you can compare benchmarks on yt 😊
keeping the benchmarks and performance factor aside, if you wish to use linux on it go for amd imo nvidia is frustrating to deal with on linux
@@deep-sea7 gaming ofc. elden ring, nier automata and valorant. mostly on low to mid settings.
@@hirakoisdead yeah that is true but they didn't mention anything about linux
Maybe we need to invent a new display server protocol. Its seems Wayland never really got their act together.
"There are now 4 competing standards"
@@dsihacks Let's make a new standard. "There are now 5 competing standards" But seriously, someone should make one and call it Y. 😂
Ubuntu tried to make their own Mir display server and failed with that. (Nowdays Mir is a Wayland compositor)
Watch the video people 🤌
gnome oh gnome. not wanna implement wayland standards
GNOME needs to stop pretending they are the center of the Linux universe and start implementing simple things like font anti-aliasing by default and VRR support!
@@cameronbosch1213 To be fair, they kinda are the center of the linux desktop.
Almost all large distros ship it by default, thus a lot of new users use it.
I would like to try it., any recommendation for a distro that already use Wayland as default?.( I use Nvidia) :$
Nobara linux?
@@deep-sea7 thanks! :)
Fedora
@@dreaper5813 this. You can buy a cheap second hand RX 580
If you also uses Secure Boot, I would recommend Debian Sid or Ubuntu (non-LTS)
Last time I used Fedora, nvidia drivers needed manual signing
I need custom browser dock in OBS wayland please.
I have an nVidia 1070 and Wayland actually works way better than X11 in my Pop_OS.
Please suggest me an usable rdp server for wayland and gnome Ubuntu 23.10! Used wrdp but it doesnt make connect me if I am not local logged! In past i used xrdp that is ugly but works.
I have been using the Gnome in-built RDP session. Not sure what backend they use but it worked fine for me. It's deactivated by default though
@@MichaelNROH me too but only work if i am locally logged. Do you know if there is a headless mode?
"Sure they'll fix the bugs in Wayland" -- Famous Last Words entry #5,183. (Sarcasm).
The dirty secret of Linux fractional scaling is that it simply forces your resolution downward; it isn't really scaling anything. I went through this with my 1920 x 1080 screen on my laptop, discovering how Linux fractional scaling actually worked on Linux Mint. 125% scaling took it down to 1600 x 900 (if I remember correctly; I don't have my notes handy). So all the fuss about Linux scaling is a nothingburger anyway; just lower the resolution manually and be done with it.
That's not how fractional scaling works at all. Usually, it renders and a higher resolution and then scales it down to the current resolution.
You're talking about Wayland like its a product by a company. It's not an iPhone. It's a standard that aims to be more maintainable. If a third party software doesn't work, it's not an issue with Wayland.
The issue is that the end user doesn't care about that. Taking out something that works for them for something that doesn't is not ideal.
Yes it's the applications that need to adapt, but until that's the case, X11 should not be removed in my opinion
It doesn't matter at all. Wayland is being pushed by its proponents as a full drop-in replacement for X11 and thus it has to, at the very least, achieve feature parity before it can be considered a 1:1 replacement which it doesn't right now. Full GNOME-only support in detriment of everything else and the developers continued refusal to implement support for very common use cases that the very thing they want to replace support and expect such support to be implemented by others down the stream certainly do not help. It probably will in the foreseeable future but it is not there right now.
I think Wayland should be ready in a year. Smaller issues may exist, but I think most of the larger ones should be solved then.
i think what makes wayland so bad is that they have to work with the GNOME team
Really, I don't think you can consider the technology as production-ready when you have wayland level of stability. I tried to use it on daily basis and get back to X11 cause of random crashes. It's still half-ass-technology that don't give you any benefits at all. Espetially for KDE+Nvidia users.
Please don't say "Screen sharing doesn't work in wayland", say "Screen sharing doesn't work very well on X apps over wayland"
Do you really think Discord is the only screen sharing app on earth? Zoom and Google teams work perfectly in wayland, for example.
i don't think you can play apex in linux
Boi, Wayland is, for all what matters, Linux-only. The support outside Linux is very limited.
If they are not interested on making it portable, why bother?
You are, of course, free to continue using X11 on *BSD or whatever other alternative OS you wish. It's free software after all. But the people who made Wayland are the same people who used to maintain X11. The reason they made Wayland was because they could not maintain X11 any more. The code is too old, too complicated, too convoluted, and too insecure. Part of how free software works is that you are not entitled to support. If they don't want to work on X11 anymore, and you still want to have X11 maintained, then your choices are to give them some incentive to resume work on X11, or to step up and maintain X11 yourself.
You might, of course, disagree with the claim that X11 is unmaintainable. Fine. But the people you have to convince are those former X11 maintainers. I would venture to guess that they probably know more about X than you do. It would be very hard to convince them of your view.
If the only three people in the world who understand X have decided that X is completely beyond repair, what are the chances that you're going to be able to convince them to change their mind? Alternatively, what are the chances that you're going to be able to maintain X without their help? Slim to none in both cases.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Prove me wrong. Show me that X can be fixed. Because if you don't, then eventually you'll have no choice but to switch to Wayland.
i dont know man, i use debian 12 stable, because my laptop is sheet, i use kde and kde run wayland run native, i cannot run project zomboid on wayland, i need switch to x11 kde version to run this game, so i dont know why, but us long us this game work, switching between x11 session and wayland is not that bad
wayland devs treat nvidia users like how photoshop treats linux users
I disagree, and Michael was wrong in the video. It isn't Wayland that was lacking the APIs for Nvidia to call, it was Nvidia drivers lacking the correct APIs for Wayland to call. We only recently (6 months ago or so) got the ones needed for Wayland to be able to use Nvidia drivers. Up until that point, Nvidia was dragging their rear ends in the mud about it for a full decade.
i dont remember what window manager it was but i know its a wayland only one, sway i think it was, on the github page it had a very strongly worded message to nvidia users and basically writes them of as not important and that they shouldnt submit issues lol@@Semperverus0
hyprland, hyprland, hyprland
we don't care about x11 anymore, forcing it out is the only way for Wayland to progress.
you really need to work on the way you speak man.
cant help but notice the tone pattern, it dose not sound right.
other than that, video is pretty good.
I used manjaro gnome with wayland but my mouse was glitching and lagging alot and everything was so slow. Maybe my system didnt support it. X11 did. So good X11. Bad Wayland
There is no future to X11 anyways. There will probably never be a X12. X1 is from 1984, X11 is from 1987. Since then we've been stuck with the same shitty protocol which is pretty good for remote terminals but really sucks for local rendering. X11 is probably one of the main reasons why Linux never dominated the Desktop market, as it did with ALL other computing segments.
Android made its own surface thing for mobiles and completely dominated the market very quickly.
Took way too long for something like Wayland to appear. Better late than never anyways.
Let's fucking go. Wayland is the way
funnily enough, nvidia is actually more enjoyable for me on wayland than on xorg. the reason can be summarized in one word: optimus
Ok so the GNOME hate is truly real.
The question is: Xorg is ready in 2023?
No he ain't. 😂
If the GNOME team were not slowing wayland down we would be 3 years into its adoption.
I disagree with a few of your points here.
- Wayland itself doesn't "break extensions" those extensions depend on Gnome or X11 APIs and therefore really aren't supposed to "just work"'. So in my opinion, the fix for this shouldn't come from Wayland.
- Sure, I agree that Wayland is limited when it comes to APIs such as capture. But should these APIs really be implemented in Wayland?That being said, NVIDIA has always had terrible support for Linux. Only recently they've started to actually support Linux, and mostly X11, NOT Wayland. AMD GPUs work just fine with Wayland, simply because they have good opensource drivers.
I feel like people expect a lot from a Display Protocol, because they're used to X11 being a single solution for everything. Personally I much prefer for Wayland to keep being a "pure" display protocol, and features people have come to expect from X11 be implemented through Portals or something similar.
Anyways, these discussions really push Desktop Linux forward and I really enjoy that. It's such a great thing to be able to choose and argue about different display protocols.
I don't know about your experience, but NVIDIA on Linux has been a pain for a long time. Of course opensource drivers "sucked" - they relied on third party developers reverse engineering NVIDIA hardware.
AMD drivers on the other hand, have been great (in my experience obviously) and the performance speaks for itself, just compare Steam Deck performance on Linux vs Windows.
You have strong opinions on Desktop Linux and I won't question them, but I've been daily driving it for a few years and I'm not going back. It's only getting better.
@@wombatdk my 83 year old dad is on Opensuse Leap and has been for the last decade and he's doing fine. So it seems that old ppl / gramps can do just fine on Linux after all :-)
Why people running for wayland??? Xorg is just far better and stable for 99% linux users.
Dual monitors with different refresh rates (like 60 Hz and 59.97 Hz), VRR, HDR, (power) efficiency (no dozen of local network roundtrips for nothing) which saves battery life, security, and it's being maintained. Just to name a few things.
better? X11 is an archaic protocol intended for mainframes, not for your modern desktop. Xorg isn't maintained anymore and has lots of security issues. It's also quite slow.
It's stable because it hasn't been touched since 2012 (for fear of breakage) and because it hasn't evolved because it's a nightmare to maintain. Wayland do have two common implementations in the form of smithay and wlroots. Thank goodness Cinnamon is finally working on Wayland support, along with Xfce and LXQt!
hyprland make my brain tickle
X11 has been garbage since inception. I've lived through all its years of hacky upgrades to support multiple monitors, 3D acceleration, etc. Wayland is so smooth out of the gate.
DUDE DO YOU KNOW THAT XDG DESKTOP PORTALS EXIST?????????????????
wayland is a braindead project. I don't see the point. It's still based on X11 compatibility so it carries over all the issues from x11. They're just pointlessly reinventing X11. Dumb. It would be better just to make a whole new graphical shell for a desktop, like Apple did with Quartz for Darwin. Maybe base something off of Haiku or libhybris and Androids graphical system. It's pretty obvious how bloated and crufty things are when the GUI on classic MacOS only took up a few megabytes, but it offered all the basic features of a modern desktop environment. And if they REALLY wanted compatibility with legacy x11 oriented software, someone could provide a compatibility layer like Wine does for Win32
I think you got some stuff twisted.
Wayland is in fact not backwards compatible to X11 and handles a lot of things differently. Most notibly, how the system can access video and audio streams, as well as address the end hardware.
The compatibility tool (similar to Win32) would be XWayland, which is basically an XServer running in the background and the Waylandcompositor acting as an application or monitor.
I honestly think that the main distros/DEs dropping X11 is a needed step to get us over that last hurdle. Wayland itself is ready, but as you said, not all apps are supporting it yet, because moving takes effort, and hey, X11 is still supported everywhere. Once X11 is not supported anywhere, it will force these devs to move to wayland, or open the door for other apps to take their place.
Hell, for many of these apps, supporting wayland is not even a lot of work.
So yeah, I think we'll get there, and this push is very needed.
F*** the users, amirite?
Once Nvidia gets their act together, I agree. Just don't touch XWayland, because that will be a disaster.
what? there is xwayland
@sixdroid I just said they shouldn't touch XWayland. XOrg support though can go once Wayland fixes the last few things, and I'm not just talking about Nvidia, I'm talking about the features on GNOME Wayland that just don't exist on KDE Plasma Wayland or even GNOME XOrg.
first comment!
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I see your point, but really dIstros need to push wayland as hard as they can and don't let any alternative way to use X11 as fast as possible. It's the only way HW and SW vendors take this change seriously.
I like your videos, but you need to change the way you narrate your text. You are constantly putting emphasis on the last vowels in almost every word. Nobody talks like the real world. After a while it becomes very distracting and annoying, and I find myself clicking off your videos because of that. Not trying to be mean or anything, just giving my perspective.
He could be nervous. I certainly am when I'm recording. Or he could have trouble with public speaking. It's something most people have tried to overcome.
Your videos lack personality. It is why I would never subscribe to you. It feels like watching a corporate training video because everything is so professional and serious. I want to be entertained when I watch a video, not feel like I'm working
I havent used x11 because wayland works for me. The only thing i find a good usecase for x11 is that some of the less resource intensive DE are xorg only