Honda EM500 Generator AVR Teardown
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- čas přidán 1. 02. 2023
- Honda AVR Part#: 32350-892-632
Hey all! I did reach out to Honda Power Sports for a schematic, and they told me one did not exist for the public and told me it was proprietary...
I then reached out to a guy I know named Robert who used to work at Honda. He said he retired a few years ago and doesnt have access anymore, but his contact who still works there mentioned that if the schematic exists he would send. Back in the day everything was paper and if it was not scanned in digitally there is no trace of it. This is where I got stuck. It's simply not worth the ROI. I'm not sure many of these machines still survive today.
Thanks Gary for making the attempt. It is too bad the manufactures do not publish the circuit diagrams when they discontinue support. Maybe someone at Honda will see this and help us out.
Hopefully someone still active there can check to see if the schematic was digitized. That or maybe someone wants to take the time to depot further, test each component, find modern alternatives and design the proper form factor casing to fit. Its a lot of work for a 40yr old board sadly.
@@Bassguitarist1985 I have this same unit that I inherited from my dad, he bought it at a yard sale over 20 yrs ago for $100. I use it quite often to charge batteries on cars for emergencies when we go camping. It also works well for blowing up our air mattress. It never let's us down. Thank you and James for the entertaining and informative videos, you guys rock!
I found a couple patent applications by Honda from the 80's, will keep digging, cause now I'm invested in finding out.
I watched Condon’s video on that genset. He’s good at what he does!
Another technique to remove hard epoxy is use a dental cavitron to shatter it ultrasonically. You can be very surgical with them.
What you can try next time is get a glass jar with a lid, place the AVR into the jar fill it with Acetone and then place the sealed jar into an filled Ultrasonic cleaner with hot water & the heater on and agitate it several times. This should soften the epoxy and make it pliable so you can pick out the resin.
You and James are awesome! cant believe how much I've learned from you both
I had a similar situation with my Honda 4514 lawn tractor. It has an Omron "safety relay" that started acting up intermittently. It only had a narrow opening in one end. I ended up cutting the outside casing off to reveal a hard black potting compound that was impossible to remove without damaging components. As it is no longer available, I conjured up circuitry based on the 3813 lawn tractor. Nice work. James is actually the reason I subscribed.
Thank you Paul for watching and subscribing. I am intimately familiar with those machines as well as I have a customer the next town over that has two of the 3813s and one of the 4514s. One of the 3813s was left out in a field for nearly a year and I had to clean out the rust inside that exact relay you are talking about. Thankfully I was able to get it repaired because as you know parts for those machines are very hard to come by unless you import them from either Japan Denmark or somewhere else in the European Union. The reason being is that Honda contracted their motorcycle division to build those machines so a lot of the parts cross but there is no roadmap to what part# is which.
@Bassguitarist1985 Thanks for reaching out to him - Robert is on the lawn mower forums and was the go-to guy for anything Honda. I still have a couple of 4514H riding mowers from the 1990s that are amazingly built (nothing built like them today in that size sadly, not even the green and yellow ones).
I have the EX750 myself - I had to do the power drill trick to get it to wake up and make power. And it is incredibly heavy for the amount of power that it makes. Still purrs like a Japanese-built engine typically does, almost 40 years old now, pretty impressive!
I regularly service a 4514 and two 3813s for a customer one town over. Major repair a few years ago. Amazing heavy duty built machines. PITA to work on but they last a long time.
Great job. I've used a flexible shaft dremel tool with dental burrs to slowly eat away at potting compound. If you can see the components then you can get really close to them.
Great tip!
Following up to page 5:30 - I see the nozzle size is going to add more harm than epoxy excavation. Small size tip was intended to remove tiny SMD parts without heating the surrounding area. Here we want to soften the entire circuit with a hot plate or basin and use a component size nozzle to extract epoxy.
Thank you for the advice! I'll keep in mind for the next time!
Thanks to james have found another teacher❤❤❤❤ good content
Thank you Gary!
You & James are my Sensei's as I'm learning even more about every aspect of generator repair. Planing to shift exclusively to generator repair from the wider range of all small engine repairs I've been doing as a hobby/business for several years now. Seems to be a shortage of affordable shops here in the Pacific Northwest.
Is there another good YT channel for basic electronic (fundamentals) repair that you or your viewers could recommend? (I do have a background in residential electrical wiring as well as automotive mechanics but now disabled & mostly in a wheelchair doing the outdoor power equipment repair thing)
Thanks in advance
EEVblog is a good channel for electronics fundamentals also another channel , Learn Electronics Repair , czcams.com/play/PLQ_OzNEYrepVlm02UxQRa40_B-2YyblHv.html
Dave Jones is a very knowledgeable guy!
Should have sanded the potting material down enough to see the component marking. Heat just melts EVERYTHING away.... 😞
I comment on Condon’s videos often, let him know I saw your video.
An early 80's model. I remember selling them when I first became a Honda dealer. Somewhat heavy for what it is. DID YOU KNOW? The only 2-cycle engine Honda ever made for power equipment was in their EX350 generator! A little lightweight 350 watt unit that really wasn't good for much but a couple lights and charging batteries as it did have DC charging capabilities. Later
Different era different everyday needs. Like James said there is a market for restoring these vintage machines and they still have I use today for nostalgia purposes. Hopefully somebody at Honda seas our videos and can help us with the schematic. And there are far smarter people out there than me with 3D printers and circuit board design software that can reproduce this part.
@@Bassguitarist1985 yeah Gary I agree, I've got one of those EX350s that was never sold! Mint. I used to know all the techs at Honda Power Equipment on a first name basis but they've all changed and I no longer have an "in", if you know what I mean lol. I've retired from the business and started my own thing out of my garage. Will pass this around to a couple guys I know have 3Ds...
@@donmayberryjrsOPE yeah I reached out to Robert at Honda who is on the smokstack forums, and unfortunately he's no longer in the in crowd
@@Bassguitarist1985 what are the smokestack forums?
Great online forums run by Harry and his daughter down in FL. Thats how i started my journey into generators on the electronics side
I wonder if there is a solvent that would dissolve (or at least soften ) that resin without harming the components, or at least not to the point where they can't still be identified?
If there is it would most certainly damage the components more and make them unreadable. My contact at Honda has told me that they specifically formulate the epoxy resin to be difficult to remove to prevent exactly what James and I are trying to do. It's how they protect their IP.
Try replacing the electrolytic capacitor. Discovered years ago that electrolytic capacitors are life rated in hours at different temperatures. They break down and the capacity decreases to nil. Very non intuitive. Discovered this after sending many power supplies out of printers in for repair, comparing the returned repairs to find electrolytic caps replaced. A good electronic parts catalog will show hour ratings at temperatures and life expectancy. The insulation is an oxide? insulator/charges and pocket that diminished down after time
This is great info! Exactly someone told me that caps can last 40yrs. When i said shenanigans it depends on the environmental factors he thought I was dead wrong. Course I looked up the facts and it echoes what you say. :-)
@@Bassguitarist1985 per unit volume because the closer plates increase differential force as the inverse square of distance? Maybe?
@@LostinSpace-ly3xc who knows. I'm no engineer, I just like playing with electronics ha!
Guys, perhaps @Big Clive might be interested in trying to reverse engineer it....
James has the AVR again. Maybe him and BigClive can chat and make that happen! Thank you for watching!
thank you so much,
Welcome 😊
Could try part 32350-ZB4-632 as a substitute for the old 32350-892-632
It is a less than twenty dollar part may be worth a look. No cross reference,
but that doesn't necessarily rule out a possible interchange.
thank you! I'll let James Condon know. He has done more work since this video on the project
@@Bassguitarist1985 Thanks, but already found by checking some shop manuals that the voltages are different for that slightly different part number so it won't
interchange. Another solution I thought may be adaptable for use as an AVR is
to get one of the PWM DC motor control modules that is varied by a control pot
and substitute for the control pot a vactrol or phototransistor optocoupler and
a trimmer adjustment pot, using the rectified sense winding output to modulate
the LED and control the output of the PWM module which is used to excite the
rotor. It is a reported controller method of operating a PWM module in a scheme
for power output controls regulating wind turbine generators, but should not
disqualify that control scheme for working on many other type generators.
Another Idea I replied to another user, was a little longer I will copy paste here
for you to look at. It's been a few years since I did the math and put together a control circuit. There are easy one chip switch mode solutions that could serve as a universal AVR. Heat is an enemy so I would not put an AVR under the end housing cover of an alternator but would extend the leads to put a new AVR in a cooler location like the outlet panel. Probably a TL598CN 16 pin DIP is a good candidate IC for the core IC to eliminate many discrete components. A 16 pin DIP socket on perf board would spare heat of soldering directly to the IC pins, which is not a skill for most technicians. An IC socket is heat tolerant more than an IC and a spare 2 dollar IC can be taped inside the AVR box as a plug in replacement if ever needed. The way switching PWM chips are configured is with 2 separate outputs used drive a pair of mosfets in an alternating fashion like railroad warning flashers and the maximum duty cycle is about 49% for each output with one going off before the other turns on in a back and forth switch mode controlled by a control flip flop. That configuration matches a center tap transformer as the primary for an inverter. So it isn't exactly what is needed for an AVR but can be adapted easily to do that similar task equally well. Easy enough, connect together drain tabs of the 2 output driven mosfets and let them alternate as a team for the negative terminal of the field for the rotor. The TL598CN has internal a 5V reference and error amplifiers for the feedback detection / control modulation of PWM to operate as a regulator for just about anything, and is fully configurable with a few external parts. If the IC ever fails, it is an easy 2 dollar plug in IC.. I have expected to find an AVR schematic showing a TL598CN as an application note or project that has been posted online, but so far no joy for what would seem to be a well documented application.
Awesome do you happen to have a diagram that I can look at for that avr would like to see the wiring diagram
That's the problem, cant get it for this one from Honda
Your vid came out before Jim’s did. Spoiler alert!!
Probably it could be chemically dissolved, question is would components stay intact.
330 is a resistor !
Also that looks like a power transistor not a 5V regulator .
Thank you for the info!
How about acetone? I hope it can melt that kind of a resin.
it will melt the resin, but cause damage to the PCB
if the generator is based on slightly changing the 5v output, just sample the real generator at different loads and design a modern AVR that does a similar things
Designing an AVR is beyond my capability unfortunately. Thank you for watching!
Hi have a Carrier electronic board.,it is short out.can I send it to you so that it be repair? it is for a Carrier air conditioning compressor , thank you so much,Manuel.
What is the part number for it?
With the proper tools and knowledge, reverse engineering this board should be fairly trivial. All components seem to be discrete, they can be measured, even active ones. The only issue I see is that, having alternatives, it's probably not worth the effort.
Agreed, the effort would be large to reverse engineer. Alternative parts can be sourced, but even for a knowledgeable person to do so, the time cost is not worth the ROI. All that work for a 40 year old generator where only a handful have survived.
A warm solution of sulfuric acid dissolves cured epoxy after soaking.
Playing around with strong acids is where I draw the line ha!
@@Bassguitarist1985 Alright then. Just trying to help. I hope you reconsider one of these days.
@@WilliamEllison thank you for the information just the same! :-)
czcams.com/video/OiPe6f4Oh8E/video.html
or
I have used solvent in the past with some success.
cool!
You should give this to Big Clive and let him re-engineer it to come up with the values of all of it's components.
I sent it back to James, maybe if they get in contact with each other they can make that happen?
Mr Carlson
Whats the reference to? Im pop culture blind ha
these are numbers in it. first is,HK38EA0104606.next is,4606N046152. next is CEPL130618-03.thank you. so much. Manuel.
Manuel, HK38EA010 is the part# which is superceded by HK38EA023. There are no available schematics to repair so I'll be unable to help. Plus the last two digits are revision numbers. Likely there are improvements on the newer board for reliability. Sorry bud!
An AVR with this part number is now on Ebay for $29.27 but it does not look like this one.
Yeah likely a misprint. James and I ran into the same issue.