Another Miami Condo Evacuated Why it Will Collapse
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- čas přidán 3. 11. 2022
- The City of Miami Beach ordered the evacuation of the Port Royale Condominium tower, just 1.3 miles south of the Champlain Towers South condo collapse site. engineering issues were discovered and will show you photos to explain why this building is likely to collapse, and what can be done to prevent it.
📺 WATCH: Miami Condo Collapse: 4 Engineering Fixes May Have Prevented It: • Miami Condo Collapse: ...
📺 WATCH: Scary Garage Damaged Concrete Marriott Harbor Beach, Like Surfside Collapse
• Scary Garage Damaged C...
#creatornow - Jak na to + styl
📺 WATCH: Miami Condo Collapse: 4 Engineering Fixes May Have Prevented It: czcams.com/video/CK3o8KlL3NQ/video.html
📺 WATCH: Scary Garage Damaged Concrete Marriott Harbor Beach, Like Surfside Collapse
czcams.com/video/3EzxZJhXRR8/video.html
The decision to evacuate a building like this is HUGE
But no matter how inconvenient it may seem I believe it was the prudent thing to do. I just would like to see that residents and property owners have the right and ability to have a second opinion. Anything can be politicized and weaponized. You don't want to give too much power to corrupt city officials.
With respect to the pertinent and reasonably-covered subject matter put to one side the audio quality of this video is abominable. It sounds like you recorded it talking into a shoe.
is this what happens when you build a city on the back of a cocaine fueled boom? From the mid 70s to the late 80s?
@@guidedmeditation2396 go look up sydneys Opal towers......
Looks like all the apartment buildings in Florida are on collapse alert!!
It’s hard to wrap my head around the idea of this building being repairable. Thanks as always Jeff for your efforts.
If you're willing to give up enough underground parking spaces, ANY such building can be saved... i.e. picture a parking garage with nothing but shoring poles!... 😱
It’s Florida. They’ll just throw some bondo and duct tape on it.
The builders AND owners, will never be jailed if it falls down. It’s only a fine.
“If the penalty is a fine, that means it's legal for the rich.”
i concur
@@tetchuma So you know the building codes in place in Florida exceed most if not all of the nation, you see many buildings torn down or rebuilt due to lack of structural integrity. This building was built in 1981 when building codes and shortcuts were commonplace. If you want to see decrepit buildings look in NYC, scaffolding in place that you see all over the city is there for one reason and that's to hold up the buildings and the tearing down and rebuilding you see in Manhattan is for the same reason, the building is just too old and unsafe to use. Many contractors in south Florida used sand from the area which is full of salt, shortcuts to save money and a blind eye was turned towards it.
I wouldn't want to live there.
I’ve been a contractor for 40 years. I used to visit my grandparents on Floridas eastern seaboard regularly from 1993 to 2005. I can guarantee you that there are a lot more Champlain Towers South just waiting to collapse over there. Americans are building garbage, and not just in Florida. All of these buildings are being exposed to salt 24 hours per day. Concrete is porous. Florida is very moist. Moisture is going to penetrate concrete all over the place. Many of these places just patch over the bad spots, paint it or seal it, but the cancer will still be there. Good luck to you all down there. You’re gonna need it.
Exactly, this is not just a South Florida issue, I live in NYC and you can't walk a block without seeing a building that is either being torn down or rebuilt due to structural integrity issues, we have water issues here as well, remember that the middle of Manhattan is a swamp and cannot support massive structures as the battery or uptown can. Shortcuts may save money in the short run but they cost everyone in the end.
Can that include houses too?
Go up to Inverrary in Lauderhill. Those mid-rises are in poor shape
It's only going to get worse.
Try Brazil 😅
This all boils down to a combination of incompetence and corruption. Its a good thing that in this instance, due to recent events, the competent engineers were in a strong position to voice their concerns and sound the alarms without fear of retaliation from higher ups who would much rather cover it up and ignore it.
And salt water
@@CatFoodDraino So we talk about misscalculations than.
@@friendlyreptile9931 are they salty?
at least its caught in time to check .. if its corruption we're no different than ccp tofu building =/
I don’t see any connection with these old reinforced concrete structures decay, and developer or contractor incompetence or corruption. The possibility of incompetence or corruption if it exists - resides in the long term maintenance, insurance, and inspection industries. In all of man’s great endeavors tragedy and progress exists. The materials, standards and practices of construction on a saltwater beach are better today and will be even better in years to come. As in aviation; all the rules are written in the blood of previous pilots.
As a specification writer for a large architectural firm, I always specified that the steel must be sandblasted to its white (clean) condition,then coated in zinc before using. 99% of the time the construction administrator would blow that off and say it wasn’t necessary. This results in the “rust never sleeps” corrosion. Everyday I’d drive past buildings (ours and everyone else’s and see steel going in that was heavily rusted. It’s a slow, but ticking time bomb.
Now they use epoxy coated rebar
I bet this will get worse before it gets better!
The rebar almost always, contains some rust. Even at the store. Its just rusty stuff. And when it doesn’t have rust, put it out at your jobsite a couple of days. Or installed in the footings. It’ll start rusting soon.
Construction people always ignore engineering drawings. It’s very frustrating when you carefully calculate a design & then it gets sabotaged by an incompetent person with no degree
.
Rusty rebar bonds better to concrete than clean rebar. This is well known in engineering circles. It is only an issue in a salty environment.
I've been waiting for this for years. My brother-in-law told me years that people were in for a surprise when a BIG hurricane hits Miami Beach. He worked construction down there back in the 60's and 70's and told me that after the building inspector inspected the building they would move the steal beams to another building for it to be inspected. Can't ask him about it now since he died a few years ago. I always hoped he was just telling tall tails.
I used re bar once when I was building a pol, noted now the re bar has a coating of green zinc chromatic paint , and I wonder If anybody knows if that works or not?
I seen many times rust and green in pictures. I think those greenish "coated" bars don't work. Only thing to avoid rusting is stainless 320 etc or 316 (more chrome and nickel)
So disgusting
@@edwardjackson1418The paint is to prevent rusting. It does prolong the life of the steel.
Trust me. Im a union ironworker
@@jannejohansson3383Stainless is 2-3 times the cost of galvanized or epoxy rebar. We would install it if the customers were willing to pay the cost. But most customers like things as cheap as possible
I used to do undersea fiber cable installation in the cable stations. These facilities were always reinforced concrete, but towards the 2005 timeframe, new constructions were very different from traditional designs. Every time we went to install at those older facilities, the concrete was weak, spalled, and in many places around the world, the rebar may or may not have even existed. So I have no doubt that residential structures get even less maintenance and scrutiny in many areas.
How long can concrete last?
@@justagirlsd3000 The Pantheon’s dome is made of concrete. About 2000 years old. Reinforced concrete is different.
@@justagirlsd3000
Romans and the ancients used a concrete that withstood a salt sea environment.
@@uploadJ a piece of knowledge we seemed to have lost, what a shame.
Residential = cow boys pass inspection. I did geo work for while. One time did I put hole in home site I didn't sign papers as I was told. Bc few years ago another geo test company did site test passed left well already 15ft fill with trees in in under pad not tested but now signed off. 2 years later 400k home split half
Having lived in Florida and being Navy, I can assure you that concrete is permable and salt spray is migrating into the concrete and the rebar is all rusting. Its a strip filled with dominios waiting for that final crack of doom. At 9:03 you see massive rust staining.... I think every bit of rebar in the exterior walls is probably comprimised.
Agreed. Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
@electrictroy2010 but how do you strengthen concrete (especially in high-rise buildings) because I thought that's what rebar was for? Plus it's not like they drill down to bedrock in FL when laying the foundation so wouldn't a bulkier heavier building on sand be worse?
I used to live South Florida and seen old buildings in Miami with deteriorated walls and corroded pipes. In some places the pipes are gone. The problem being in the tropics once water gets into the metal workings it breaks down very quickly like cancer. If you don't get it all removed it will keep going. That building from what I've seen is too far gone to even try fixing all those problems. They're better off tearing it down and build a new one which is a shame as this is totally preventable if they did the proper maintenance.
Yes, so important to keep your buildings well sealed and well painted
I agree.
I agree Noah....no way would I ever move back in....I would be afraid to go in and even move out my possessions!
The problem is not "water getting into the metal workings". That is just a symptom of what is wrong in the construction trade. Too many buildings being designed and built with the use of inferior products and piss-poor oversite during the construction process. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that building a supposedly re-enforced concrete structure, feet from the beach, that harsh conditions will destroy the building. Furthermore, these types of buildings on a barrier island, just doesn't make sense. I guess there was too much greed available to overlook that fact.
A new one would be built just as shoddily.
When you showed the rebar expansion due to rust, I remember reading about the first Athens Parthenon restoration of the 1920's . They used iron I pieces to join the marble slabs and the iron rusted and expanded it damaged the marbles. The ancients used different metal and the voids where filled with molten lead for weatherproofing
Almost ancient Romans and Greeks they knew how to build roads
I can imagine a row of ancient engineers in white robes shaking their heads in disbelief
Well we were going to book an air b and b on Miami Beach in one of the high rises there but now we’re not so sure? 🤔🤷🏻♂️
The ancient Romans used pure concrete. No rebar == nothing to rust, so their buildings are still standing 2000 years later
The ancient Greeks used wood pegs to hold the columns together. They didn’t use metal, because that expands at different rates than stone (also rusts). The ancients were smarter than us
Lived in Honolulu for many years. They had similar problems with the salt environment but also compounded by contractors using salt contaminated sand in original concrete mix. Was a big mess and I’d be worried about any and all Florida buildings built in the era this one was.
Yeah I stayed at the Sheraton on Waikiki. Built in 1971. Saw some rust on that puppy and wondered about that.
@@AyeCarumba221 it sure makes you wonder how many more beach condos are suffering from this problem? 🤔
Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
Is there a comparable option to concrete? I'm gonna assume it's used cuz it's cheap and workable, but is there another option for the needs of contractors?
@electrictroy2010 is cathodic protection a realistic option?
We use cathodic on steel water/gas lines here in Canada, but we also don't have a huge saltwater issue to contend with here in thw middle of North America. Does anyone think that a similar kind of prevention-protection is a feasible option down south there, in Florida?
It’s wild.. as a kid this was one of my biggest fears going to a beach hotel. Most of the ones we went to looked sooo old and had cracks and all of that jazz. I used have big fears of building collapsing. The Miami one and this new one doesn’t help those old fears go away😅😅😅
Agreed: Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
If you have those fears as a child then you lost out on life.
@@crosisofborg5524 I mean it wasn’t a BONE CHINNING fear. Just a thought that’d pop up when I saw the structure cracks and it’d make me nervous but my mom always comforted me :)
I was working down in Tampa Bay rebuilding a battery recycling plant and it was very impressive how common Spalding was on the old concrete. Thankfully the new owners of the plant weren't interested in messing around and we were leveling the whole plant a department by department and the Spalding was even found in center of a 4'x4' support collim
Best way to do it Jay!
@@jeffostroff thanks for the comment 😊
BTW, it's 'spalling" not spalding. I assume the latter is from auto-correct gone wild.
@@KB4QAA I wish I could blame the machine but there's the reason I'm a welder not engineer
Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
It seems these stories/issues never end. At least this time they were pro- active instead of re-active. Now the actual cause
needs to be identified. Thanks Jeff.
Very well said Gary! I am so glad they did the right thing here
Jeff, I am wondering, if they have not already, inspected every building in that corridor.
The cause is building condos on the shore in Florida when instead it shouldve never been developed so heavily. This isnt some oh well in hindsight thing, people were vary aware of the issues of this place when they started developing it greedily
And local government wanting to generate more property & income & sales taxes.
Just to note: in surveys of how prospective home buyers rate the features of homes, like number of bedrooms, finishes, location, etc. they consistently rate view as the most important feature, and geologic/engineering safety at the very bottom. Even as a geologist who knows better, I bought a old house built on Bay Mud, and a in flood zone, here in the San Francisco area, because I fell in love with its Victorian charm, and it was the only non-horrible one that we could afford. My soul would have died in any of the other houses we looked at, tiny, run-down 50-60s “ranch” homes with absolutely no character whatsoever and requiring head to toe remodeling and earthquake and energy retrofitting. Pre-1990s construction here in California wasn’t that great here, either, the earthquake construction codes were weak and insulation wasn’t required until after the energy crises of the 70s. Like most US homes of that era, they were quickly and cheaply built to supply the huge post-war housing demand.
It’s amazing how much money people will put into the aesthetics of their home, neglecting the structural components.
MADE A DUMB DECISION and will regret it, when SF gets hit with a 7.0 earthquake that makes your house collapse & trap you. As an intelligent geologist, you should have known better.
BTW SF is ridiculously expensive to live. So is most of California. I moved away & got a nice home for $200,000 on the east coast (near Baltimore).
I remember the condo craze in the late '70s and '80s. These things went up way too fast! I was an electrician then, and these buildings were most likely built with drug money. Junk back when they were built, and now a disaster is just waiting to happen.
Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
@@electrictroy2010 There is nothing wrong with steel reinforced concrete, it has been in use for over 120 years, and indeed it is stronger than plain concrete of the same thickness. It does however need to be built and maintained correctly.
We had a bridge right in the middle of my city that had visible deflection. Its was demolished last year and is being replaced. We definitely don't have a spotless record up north in Canada, but we do take theses things more seriously nowadays. The de la Concorde viaduct collapse was our wake up call. The result was a much tighter inspection of structures and rebuilding program. The Champlain bridge did not collapse, but it could have. At one point, it had a crack through a beam that was large enough for a man to crawl through. That bridge was one of the first few post tensioned bridges and suffered from problems almost from the start since the technology wasn't mature. Engineers kept a close watch on it, but it still ended up with that massive crack. They actually had a massive steel beam ready to install "just in case". They had the bridge reopened in a matter of days. That little crisis was what finally set politicians in motion to replace the bridge as quickly as possible. The thing about politicians is that they don't seem to do anything until things hit a critical inflection point. That bridge is easily one of the most important in Canada. Public outcry is what is needed to get things moving.
I get the feeling that the condo market in the Miami area is going to collapse (so to speak), if it hasn't already. There are probably a lot of old buildings that either can't get fixed quick enough, can't get re-certified in time and/or will cost too much to be viable. I don't know if tearing down a lot of these structures and building new ones just resets the clock, causing the same problem 40 years later or if the residents will be wiped out by that.
Many condos in the area of the collapsed dropped 30% in value
It's not just this, but as sea levels rise and the sands get washed away, even safely constructed and maintained buildings may wind up having major issues.
I hope Florida doesn't have the problem of people not wanting to work, like so much of the nation right now.
@@rayah2782 NYC is built on natural, deep GRANITE, not sand.
@@timramich it is the rehab and retiree capital of the US. Those are not people that generally participate in the labor market. We have low unemployment because we are an older population and lots of folks retire everyday and the gig economy has zapped workers from traditional employment. People have money, the inflation is due to high demand in services - it is stubbornly high. Shelter costs have already started coming down due to higher interest rates. You can’t force people to work traditional jobs.
Hey Jeff, thanks for another interesting video. I suspect there are numerous buildings built on the beach shoreline that are in a similar condition. With these buildings being constantly bathed by salt spray, sea water soaked soil, and external structure stresses that take place when hurricanes come through, I assume these types of buildings would need constant thorough maintenance. Problems have likely gotten ignored over the years using the assumption that concrete buildings don't collapse because they are super strong. Hopefully the Champlain Towers collapse will be a wake-up call to the industry but, at the same time, not a knee-jerk reaction based upon fear and gut-feel.
Plus when they flood with storm surges over the years
They need to be proactive with maintenance. They need to keep those buildings well sealed and painted, and immediately fix and damaged concrete
Great Post (from a likely engineer) John 14:6
@@rogerdevero8726 Yes, Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven and there are no work-arounds or "backdoors".
i bet that it's not just the climate it's also bad building practice - adulterated concrete/cement mixes, concrete not given enough time to adequately cure, insufficient gauge and amount of re-bar, inadequate safety/redundancy features of construction.
Feel so bad for the people made to evacuate but much better than being crushed by your home. If anything hopefully the lives lost in the Champlain towers accident will help save many more from the same fate. Appreciate the time you take with these.
Nah those people will think they are immune to death & evacuation not needed. Just like people in the Miami Condo thought it didn’t need maintenance. They thought they were immune to death
Hopefully they’ll be able to get their belongings out of that mess..
Don't worry about them, they're alive. They're also likely quite wealthy, living on the ocean in FL, so if they've managed their finances responsibly they can afford the setback and probably have insurance on all belongings.
I think that building should be demolished.
If they can't save it, might be a good idea, and start over.
Yes, bring down the house
@@jeffostroff If they try to repair it, how can they know the repairs are sufficient?
@@jeffostroff hey check out the Western Hills Viaduct at Cincinnati Ohio it's literally crumbling they have to put Nets up to catch the concrete from hitting the cars
@@singamajigy hope and a prayer
I live in a place in Qld Australia and we have seen high rise buildings pop up everywhere over the last 20 years, a builder told me he would never invest in any of them as they'll all be condemned in 50 years due to being built too quick and substandard quality😬
Thanks Jeff! Out here in CA this whole thing makes no news anymore. I'm getting it all from you these days!
Awesome glad to help!
We have the same problem here in Michigan with precast bridges, its from all the salt they use to melt ice and snow.
The building is named after Port Royal, Jamacia where in 1692, an earthquake caused half the city to collapse into the sea and resulted in about 2,000 deaths. The name sounds good, but there is a backstory. They never name places the Hindenburg or Titanic. I wonder if it is possible to have a cascading collapse where the rows of condominium towers go down like dominos. I'll start working on the script for the disaster movie CONDOCLYSM. I bet the realtors and significant property owners would buy the rights to sink it, so the bottom wouldn't fall out of the market there.
Luckily the condos appear to fall straight down in a pancake fashion
There are a lot of places named "Hindenburg" in Germany and in areas which were part of Germany in the past (for example: in the former german colonies of Togo or Tanzania)
Hindenburg was an Important person not just a Zeppelin.
There's an old grimy Chinese restaurant by us that recently reopened as the "thai-tanic" lol.
I would like to invest in your venture, sir. LOL.
@@jeffostroff That's excellent for the people around Port Royal, not so much for the people who live in the other ticking time bombs around the country. I work on federal buildings built from the turn of the 20th century, primarily during the 1930s and 1940s, and they are holding up pretty well considering. However, detailed inspections of certain areas is precluded by lead and asbestos. Fortunately, the government is pretty good about getting contractors for that. I know the old cast iron drain/waste/vent piping is rotting in most of them, and can't be good for the masonry.
This is terrifying! Is there any recourse for these residents??? It wouldn’t matter to me what they did to fix this…I’d never go back.
not really unless they can find negligence on the part of the board or an engineering firm hired t odo repairs.. .. if there were many complaints filed for many years previo0us and no steps were taken to begin repairs then residents could have a case to make against the assessments they will surely be billed for to make these repairs.. but if the building is just aging and all proper steps were taken.. they have to pay the assessments and move on. im asure at this point the engineering firm will be going 100% through the building, if the repairs arent too extensive they will be grandfathered by the city and allowed to stay on original code.. if the repairs are too complext they may require the building certify to current 2022 (2023) code .. now that the city is involved you can bet with the bit of egg the cirty had on their face from champlain decades ago.. that they will insopect this building thoroughly before re-issung its CO.. so the residents can rest assured (with smaller bank accounts) that the building will be safe..
How about if it falls or is knocked down, the site is sold to developers; they would receive a payout of some value?
If FEMA or another government agency steps in and buys them out. Or the can sue the builder for their loss
Condos are tricky. Always contact a real estate attorney before buying
It would be a matter for whatever insurance is covering the building and if the HOA didn't bother with it, then the residents would be out of luck. The insurance you get as a resident is either renter's insurance or insurance on the unit itself depending on whether you rent or own the unit. It typically just covers the things in the unit, not necessarily the unit itself, but that would be laid out in whatever coverage documents are involved in the policy.
The building I live in is insured by an HOA policy for anything that happens tot he actual building, but the stuff in my unit is covered by a renter's policy. If the building did fall down or otherwise become uninhabitable, then I'd probably be out of luck while looking for somewhere else to live.
@@SmallSpoonBrigade thats just it in a nutshell.. most HOA's do have insurance.. its usually required by mortgage holders that the building itself be insured properly since many condo owners hold a mortgage like a house. in a rental situation, the renter's policy-holder knows its a contents-only (and usually some liability too.. ie if a washing machine owned by you flooded the building).. buying an older condo is somewhat of a risk for the buyer as its possible to have costly assessments sooner than later.. whereas a newer building isnt likely to need costly repairs for a good number of years
Thankyou Jeff, no one else gives as much significance to this and other related important stories as you.
I think the workmen that installed those shoring poles have a very dangerous job. Reason is because they have to install them and then tighten as much as possible the threaded adjusting rings, probably using a hammer. This puts a change of stress onto the beams above which can be unsettling to any nearby further faults in the surrounding stressed concrete. In any case steel supports like that are only as strong as when they are in a straight line of stress. If they get a twist or bend in them then they could collapse very quickly.
LOL, they sure do have a dangerous job. I remember skit on SNL after Three Mile Island nuclear power plant incident, they sent Garrett Morris playing the cleaning lady into the containment tower to just mop up some water on the floor, LOL
I have worked many High Rises up to 47 stories and quite of few Industrial building. Including installing and removing more pole shores that I lost count of years ago. I personally never seen a pole shore fail. All projects new and existing has always been engineered as to how many, how far apart, location, bridge over x floors and sequence of installing or removing. I have been in construction over 46 years mostly a supervisor. I have brought up many concern to the engineers, but in the end it is the engineers (Agency (city, county, state) verses contractor/owners) that resolve the issues if any. What appears obvious to us may or may not be a serious issue and should always be treated with "An Abundance Of Caution". The Florida bridge collapse is a story you should research, it was doomed before it was ever built.
I was sweating bullets as I watched the first responders at Champlain Tower South going underneath the partially collapsed part if the building to put up those steel shoring columns. It is incredibly dangerous work!
100% correct on this point. Brave mothertruckers putting the shoring poles in. That building needs to come down. Period.
Thanks, Jeff. I really enjoy your content.
Glad you enjoy it!
Thanks Jeff! I saw this story last week and hoped you would cover it!! Keep us posted
I was ill with a UTI last week, slowed me down 3 days, but finally go tit, numerous people were asking me to make this video
@@jeffostroff glad you’re back up on your feet. Those can sneak up on you for sure and wear you down quickly. Feel better drink fluids!
I’ve started to notice, since the Champlain towers collapse, that nearly all concrete structures (some of which I use on a daily basis) have cracks ranging from mildly to very concerning, and improper repairs of spalling are basically the norm.
It’s not just Florida, I live in Minnesota and it’s everywhere, a ticking timebomb.
Maybe you just pay more attention to it now
I’ve always noticed the concrete spalling, but I didn’t realize it was a structural failure. I thought it was just cosmetic. IMHO Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
@@electrictroy2010 , You should see the big spalls and rusting rebars on the CTA Red Line north branch el trestle here in Chicago. HUGE spalls. Half the line has been a slow zone for years, and it has been shored up with massive structural steel supports. At long last, it's being torn down and replaced section by section- a huge project costing billions, but it's over 100 years old after all.
Appreciate your work! So glad the city is taking steps to save lives.
Thanks for watching!
Thank you Jeff. This is scary stuff but the way you explain things helps.
Not so scary if they evacuate when the need to
@@jeffostroff True, but the key word is 'IF.'
That is terrifying. I would be out of there like a bat out of hell. I feel so bad for the people involved but at least you get out and you don’t have to go through the trauma that the Champlain condos did. So scary
Thank you Jeff. Your vid is really great. I m sure you are a very good architect.
Thanks for additional reporting and a GREAT report.
Glad you enjoyed it Russell
Thanks for your depth of information! No one does the great job you do!!
I appreciate that Nancy!
Thank you Jeff for showing us what is going on. Frightening how that resort hotel shrugged off problems that were pointed out in their building.
What is really spooky here is you don't really have any warning, is when the collapse will occur, watching that security footage, this building collapsed so fast, people were in a situation they really had no warning, and it was at a time, people would be sleeping, horrible way to go! Crushed to death by slabs of concrete
Actually the residents reported “groaning noises” and cracks appearing in walls several months ahead. But they chose to live in denial & not see the warning signs
.
Back in the early 70’s it was rumored that beach sand was being used in the concrete. There’s a LOT of highrises in Dade County that have severe cracking.
Great vids Jeff....always appreciated
Thanks 👍
You are doing a great thing, by watching for articles like this. Thank You.
I appreciate that Janet, it is a lot of effor and time to make these videos
Don’t think I’d ever live in a flat slab concrete building, especially in a wet environment. Dr. Ho, my “Analysis of solids & structures” professor, when asked about getting partial credit on tests was fond of saying “You build bridge. Bridge fall down. Maaaaany people die. You want partial credit?!Hahahaha!”
Sounds like a funny professor I'd like to have
Prof Chang, at Stevens was petitioned by a student for partial credit on a statics problem, as he had set up the problem correctly but merely had a math error. Prof Chang's response: " You graduate Stevens. You engineer. You build bridge. Half of bridge fall down. Noooooo partial credit."
In the real world, multiple engineers review the work & catch math errors
@@electrictroy2010 And yet buildings and bridges still fall down, even new ones (such as the FIU pedestrian bridge). 🤷♂️
Great video as always Jeff. Still shocked we don’t have surveillance video footage of the other building. 😞
The warning signs are major...wow.
great work. thanks
Glad you liked it! Sam
good work Jeff, i always love engineering issues/investigative style video's, its super worrying stuff though after what happened at the champ towers im not sure how safe i'd feel if i was living in a surfside condo block
Giselle Bundchen just moved to Surfside last week, how bad could it be? Gives me a reason to visit now
@@jeffostroff lol
Sad reality: Women age. Giselle was stunning at age 20, but at age 40 accumulated sun damage gave her skin of a grandma
.
I am very happy to have found you. I am an engineer and although I am already retired, engineering is still my passion.
Thank you very much for this valuable information.
I pointed out CTS was likely the tip of the iceberg and the amount of people calling me a conspiracy theorist was insane. The owners of the building are the residents - and they rarely want to do required maintenance and repairs. I've been to HOA meetings and literal fights break out when money is on the line. Everyone wants to kick the can - so none of this shocks me.
You have to be an idiot to be in a condo association in one of these large concrete buildings. No way!
Hopefully now HOA presidents wise up and listen when people bring damage tot heir attention
I also believe a good owners association would have reserved funds to pay for most repairs w/o having to do a large assessment of the owners.. cuts down on the money fights if the money is in the bank already
Dear Doc; I enjoyed reading your post regarding Champlain tower south, especially your comment on how it is the tip of the iceberg, and that people referred to you as a conspiracy theorist regarding the matter. At 63 years of age, one major thing I have learned about my fellow humans is there extreme capacity to exist in denial. All people need to do is open their eyes and see what is before them plainly, and then connect the dots. And people do not need to be engineers or contractors to plainly see corrosion, spalling, and rusty rebar sticking out. But they don’t want to see this, because it is inconvenient. The icing on that cake, as far as I am concerned, Was the poor security guard getting sued for $500 million even though to me it looks like the security guard was the hero of the whole damn thing, because hey, the security company just happened to have an insurance policy for $500 million. So not only is my beef with the construction industry, and with blind people in denial, but also with our so-called justice system as well, which simply seeks out the deepest pockets and goes in for the kill there. God help us all.
THE HOA was fully-aware of the Champlain maintenance issue, but the residents simply refused to cooperate. One HOA president resigned because he was fed-up with arguing about the problem.
Democracy only works when the people act intelligently. Most do not. They act like children (ignoring problems until it’s too late). Also begging for free money, even if the government is about to bankrupt itself
And what do you want to bet that this building also has lots of units renovated with tons of heavy granite and tile like the other one? 😰
most likely yes
Yep. Exactly. CTS was just the first to go because of many mistakes made in the initial construction, and mistakes made in the 40 years after. Others will follow.
Im new too your channel i can't get enough of your videos . I like how you break everything down in your explanations. I can tell that you're passionate about engineering and that you take it seriously thanks man for posting and sharing with us I really like your freaking videos on the Titan sub disaster
Cheers Jeff, really informative explanation of how this happens.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
Even after millions of dollars of rehab were finished…my family’s oceanfront condo in Clearwater, Fl is still a s**t show…my dad opened an external, ocean-facing door on a closet on the balcony, and a steel beam was so corroded, it crumbled on his hands. The building was less than 40 years old at the time..:Also, balconies we’re reconstructed when the building was 20 years old and tiles removed, because the deterioration was happening so fast. US Steel built it in 1982, the era of the “Cocaine Cowboys”.
Yes, and maintenance is so important, painting that metal so it does not corrode
@@jeffostroff , Could it be that the amount of maintenance it would take to keep up with the damage done by Florida's salty, humid air and high water, is beyond affordability for most middle-class and upper-middle-class condo owners? The resident-owners of the Porte Royale are not wealthy and were still recovering from that dreadful $50,000 per unit average assessment in 2011, to repair problems that have once more manifested. Even the relatively well-heeled crowd at the Champlain North could scarcely afford to keep up. It just could be that high rise buildings, an experimental building type in any case, are just too demanding and complex for most people to fully afford.
Agree! Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
Most Chicago and NYC high rises, especially the really tall ones like the Empire State or Hancock or Sears (Willis) Tower, were built with structural steel frames, the best way to build a high rise there is. The structural steel high rise was invented in Chicago by architect Louis Sullivan, and enabled the construction of much higher buildings than would have been possible with any other type of construction. Pure concrete is for low rise structures. Steel reinforced concrete can be very good but must be done correctly. In the case of the Champlain Tower South, too much rebar was packed into narrow columns, and deterioration caused by saltwater intrusion exacerbated the problems over years.
Damn...thank God the building got evacuated instead of just ignored.
Yes, glad they all showed wisdom this time
so glad youre still covering the champlain towers collapse! no one else is!
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
Thanks Jeff for in depth explanation of the deterating condo structure
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
I'm 37 years old. I remember when I was a kid, my parents would take me to a few different condos on a beach further north each summer where we would spend a week. These were beautiful, brand spanking new condos. Fast forward three decades, and these condos look like they were built 100 years ago, and some of the main support columns are in pretty rough shape. I'm not an engineer, but it has made me wonder how much redundancy there is with those columns...if one or two fail from massive spalling, will the other columns be able to support the structure? Did the designers originally take the destructiveness of saltwater into account? Or were these built in the same manner as structures not exposed to salt air/water and are ticking time bombs?
Yes.
Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
Wow, I have no idea what you do for a living now, but hopefully you're involved in engineering education. Your command of this material is exceptional!
Man this is crazy I stayed across the street from this place back in 07 when I was in Miami for 2 weeks on vacation 😳
You escaped certain death!
Awesome work thank you
No problem 👍
It's better safe than sorry-all the warning signs were ignored at Champlain Towers.
Jeff, you've done such a great job detailing the damage, I'd like to see how they do the repairs when they finally get around to it.
Yes, this would be an interesting story
Very interesting I found ur channel from the ocean gate event and you've got a cool channel bro I enjoy the comprehensive look into these events
Welcome aboard!
I never thought failed architecture forensics would interest be but between you and Josh, I am hooked!
10:40 The "blobs", nicknamed sprites some years ago, are dust particles floating in the air as the flash is activated, as the camera is taking the picture. It's a phenomenon which began to appear with compact cameras, where the flash is very close to the camera lens. What has happened is the camera has focused on the pillar and other bits around it, as the picture is taken the flash goes off and any dust particle hanging in the air between the lens and the object being photographed will be illuminated but, of cause it will out of the focus range of the lens, so will appear as a fuzzy blob, but only against a dark background, those against a light background just fade into the background.
Not uh, those are all "spirits" of dead people!
Guy should have retaken the photo, when he saw it didn’t focus clearly
Another very engaging video from Jeff. Not sure one would want to live there no matter what they tried to do to the building. An unbelievable collection of jacks! And water running over the breaker boxes! I wonder how mush of this deterioration there is ; not yet noticed ???
Love your stuff, Jeff!
Thanks so much Gnarls
Water seeping up is very common in low level parking lots. My building has 3 parking levels and the lowest level where I have a spot is flooded often with an inch or more of water (especially this type of year with king tides). Most of the year there are puddles. They seep up through cracks. There are a few pumps but most always it’s full of water. We passed the inspections and have a good engineering firm. Do I need to worry?
I would sell now.
Worry
I feel so sorry for the residents! 😢
KansasCity Skybridge failure was my Dad's eye opener when he got into Civil Engineering
Same here when I was in high school, that's what got me interested in engineering disasters and how to fix them.
Even if they "repair" this building, there is absolutely nothing that could ever convince me that it was once again a safe and sound structure.
Thanks for another awesome and informative video. It's truly terrifying to see those pictures, like I get that it takes funds to do the maintenance and all the owners want the lowest maintenance costs but I always wonder how can people let it get that bad when they've invested their money in. I could understand if they were rentals and it was up to whoever owned the building but I wouldn't want to be the owner of a unit in a building that's crumbling apart over time! I don't even know if I'd trust any work at this point to come back and live in there even if I was told it's safe again, I'm sure the damage extends to areas that can't be seen and can be difficult to repair properly.
IT will be harder to sell condos in miami beach now that buyers inspectors and insurance and mortgage companies will be looking closer
In the collapsed condo, many residents were just renters. The actual owners didn’t live there, and probably didn’t care if the building collapsed. More important to avoid spending money on maintenance.
The HOA tried several times to raise money to fix the condo’s rusting issues, but the residents kept voting no
Jeff, Thanks always for your expertise on these engineering issues. I live in Southern California and I realize humidity and rust are very different animals in our two environments. As a laymen I have noticed here building codes seem to require "coated" rebar with a greenish paint for this type of building. Are the same codes required in Florida?
epoxy coated rebar is now required, it was not in the 70s. Most bridges and tall structures will use epoxy coated rebar.
How about carbon fiber rebar?
@@danielclint1033 Would not work, rebar (steel) and concrete share a similar expansion / contraction rate. So they work well together.
@@chuckmiller5763 That is valid and not something I considered.
IMHO Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
good video jeff, you've earned a new sub!
Welcome aboard Milky!
@@jeffostroff thanks jeff!
Yo, thank you for the good advice for things to watch out for. Very, very informative. Now I look at beams in the subway,etc.
Glad to help
This often dates back to save money on construction .. less rebar, less concrete, more room space to sell combined with fast construction and quality issues (nobody wanted to know about). And I'm sure some issues are down the fondation (as Miami is not known for its rocky soil).
Plus this building is 50 years old, many construction requirements have changed over time
Thanks Jeff, another interesting video on what looks like will be a major repair. I’m always puzzled though as to why the HOA allows the buildings to deteriorate to this level, aren’t they on the hook legally to explain their neglect? To say nothing of the cost involved in this latest evacuation order. You’ve certainly caused me have a good look at the basement garages of high rises here in OZ that I have to frequent. Love your work, Regards from OZ 🇦🇺
Who makes up the condo boards? Are they required to have a structural engineer?
I'm head of my HOA out here in California, and the problem is the owners never want to spend the money to keep the building in good shape. And old buildings just wear out. If you buy a condo, buy a new one!
The HOA at the collapsed condo tried to spend money to fix the problems, but residents kept voting “no”
Great vids. Just curious…What year was this one built. Was it close to the time that Champlain was constructed?
Good post Jeff
Those photos of the rusty rebar and concrete missing reminds me of a lot of the bridges here in Massachusetts
Yes, and in PA as well
@@jeffostroff , all over the country. There are over 47,000 bridges and over 2,000 high-hazard dams that have been deemed critically deficient. Never mind a condo tower- consider how many people a dam collapse could take out. We only now know what a very near thing the failed spillway at the Oroville Dam was, and it was sheer luck that the collapse of those two decrepit dams in Michigan didn't kill anyone, just did $100 M worth of property damage.
Jeff, great video. It would be real interesting if you made a video discussing how one goes about actually repairing a building that's in this condition. I'd bet there's gonna be a lot of that going on in the coming years.
Good question. Or would it be cheaper to tear them down and rebuild them with better methods
@@emilyfeagin2673 each unit owner (sounds like 160 of them) would have to vote on that and agree to pay whatever the cost would be. I would think that some unit owners still owe money on their condo and do have a lot of free cash laying around. They are still on hook to pay what they owe on current mortgage
Step 1, declare bankruptcy
Step 2, walk away
Step 3, proffit
FREE: Jeff has covered the basic procedures for repair in his previous videos.
@@gorak9000 the american dream
Great video 👍
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
Thanks for making this video. With this much damage to the building, is it economically feasible to repair it?
Thanks Jeff! What about the newest with the structural engineer that’s been dead since 2017 but has been signing off on condo certifications since 2018, 6 months after he died.
Did not hear about that one!
@@jeffostroff it was in Miami. The story came out on Friday.
As soon as I read about 6969 I said...."I can't wait for Jeff's vlog to come out on this one!" Thanks for covering...and I know there will be many more to come, sadly. Happily no one is dead!
This is a great scenario for life saving, wish the Champlain Towers South last year could have done the same
Thank you for your expertise. I remain very interested.
You are welcome Bruce
thank for your coverage of all these construction defects in buildings. Champlain, the hotel, and now this. Very interesting. I think it helps to be far more attentive to these issues that might creep up in your own building.
Thanks Luca glad to help!
When I worked down there in earlier 2000 those buildings were scary being closed doors
Good work Jeff. Highlighting these issues could save lives. The outcome could be terrifying if nothing is done.
Thanks Marie!
Thank you.
You're welcome!
I’m not an engineer 👷♀, however if I saw 👀 cracks like that I would move right away . LoL 😂
Many have done that
My question is will repairs be good enough? Is it really possible to repair such damage or better to bring the building down and replace it? Yes, I know that cost but repairs on concrete like that are only band-aids which I think is very dangerous in the long run. Thank you Jeff so much for sharing.
I agree. I would never live in a "reconditioned" highrise.
Repair will be fine if done properly. They aren't band-aids at all. If done properly to ICRI standards, the repair is as good as new. The important thing is that they need to strip it back far enough to get to good concrete and non corroded rebar.
thanks for all the work you do, it's very interesting and informative. i have a feeling there are a ton of buildings that have similar issues, hopefully the surfside collapse will prevent further tragedies.
Around the whole city of Miami they've already condemned about a half dozen buildings since the Champlain towers condo collapse so it's good to see they are finally getting proactive.
Jeff, I love these videos. If I ever purchase a condo I will be looking for cracks and moisture!
Glad you like them!
Love your videos. I surely hope engineers write spec’s that go above and beyond city requirements. Hopefully contractors and employees follow corrections properly and someone is standing there watching and making sure it is done correctly
Thanks John!
Hi @Jeffostroff Hope you are well. I can't believe they are still having problems in the area. It seems to me the beach area and Florida in general has a lot of poor contractors and regulations. It's sad it takes a huge building collapse to make people look for signs and it's scary when there are signs all over Miami. I think they made the right decision to evacuate. Better that than a repeat disaster and more innocent lives are lost. Those beams and exposed rebar look scary. I would not want to be living there
Old buildings were made from pure concrete. These new buildings use steel skeletons inside the concrete. The technology is fundamentally flawed (because the steel rusts). It needs to be phased-out like asbestos was phased-out.
Steel-reinforced concrete is a bad idea that gradually falls apart & collapses.
Thanks!
Thanks so much for your $10.00 $uperThanks Pamela!
Jeff, some of those pictures of the walls cracking and having a reddish color to them seems to scream salt water corrosion. Wouldn't the other buildings in this vicinity eventually fall victim to salt water corrosion and suffer the same fate as the Port Royale Condo Complex? I guess the number one question is how can you stop salt water and salty air corrosion so buildings can be safe for its occupants. Great videos Jeff... keep them coming as I am learning a lot.
It could be avoided with a designated maintenance team. Even a engineer checking everything every few months would ensure that issues are documented and addressed in a timely manner. These buildings are just being let go for decades without any effort to address issues. These buildings would last so much longer with proper maintenance, but instead they just are allowed to self destruct.
It's as simple as applying good LATEX paint--but you MUST re-apply it EVERY 4 YEARS--without fail... of course most HOAs will STOO-pidly say "4 YEARS, why it still "looks fine" at 7 years... of course once the paint becomes chalky (actually before that), it's too late--moisture and chloride ions have already penetrated down to the concrete underneath, and have begun their "slow walk" through the "matrix" structure of said concrete... add sub-par "Mafia Mix" concrete to the equation, and it's "rebar disintegration, here we come!"... 💥💥bereaved survivors will be left with the macabre task of identifying their relatives, after they've been squashed, literally, paper-thin! 🤭😱
@@MajorCaliber You kinda lost me dude. These places have obviously gone completely without inspection or maintenance for decades. There needs to be an actual engineer inspection every few years. That is very much needed. These buildings can survive a long time, but you have to maintain them. As soon as anything shows signs of issues it should be immediately repaired.
This is a case of straight up neglect for decades. Everything has been left to rot with no preventative measures. It’s just insane as to how they have allowed the deterioration to get to the level of danger of collapse. No effort to fix anything at all.
Of course it's *way too late* for simple latex paint to make a difference *NOW* , I meant that had it been "well and faithfully" painted *since the day it was built,* then you would NOT have SPALLING and other signs of compromised rebar. Next time you're in Lauderdale-By-The-Sea, take a look at the few remaining 2-story, family-owned motels right on the beach, built in the *1950s.* They are flawless, ZERO salt damage, because every time there's a US Presidential Election, they repaint everything, from the ground up, usually with Florida-made Acrylux paints.
Would love to see videos on how repair is done
Yes, me too, they use ICRI methods for concrete repair
Wrecking ball on a crane and a couple of backhoes to scoop up the debris afterwards is probably the most economical.
Thanks Jeff. I see cracking in the window sills of my concrete house.
Super interesting. its there some analysis from the basement/fundation structure? or even soil mechanics ?
Not that we have seen, but the engineers working on this I would think should have done some core samples by now