I melt the copper first and then add the aluminum. The idea is that a lot of the aluminum will burn while bringing it up to copper melting temperature.
Ok, so we disagree 😄 I really don't make aluminum bronze any more but I do make tin bronze and the same conditions exist, the tin melts at a much lower temperature than the copper. I used to put the tin and a portion of the copper in the crucible together, heat it up, and wait for the copper to melt before adding the rest of the copper. Now I heat an empty crucible till it is somewhere near copper melting temp and then add the tin and a portion of the copper. The tin obviously melts very quickly in this arrangement but the copper melts quickly too. I don't know that I lose any tin due to it burning off.
I made a few pandants with this stuff, and even tho I was using a cobalt drillbit for the string hole, halfway the metal became so hard the drillbit stopped cutting. after reannealing it went through with no trouble. a very interesting alloy indeed!
Perhaps, you might try lightly "dusting" your ingot molds with fine powdered talc, or graphite, or, soot, from an acetylene torch, or candle, etc. That might prevent any molten metal from sticking to the steel.
Usually the shrinkage from cooling causes the ingots to release on their own without the need for any release agent. It's only when i pour the metal all over the top and it gets into the cracks that I have a problem ;-)
I looks nice. Certianly would be worth making just for something that is not structural that would be exposed to the weather. I have to make a set of house number and I would love them to be that color on a black background... Thank you for the demo and chat... Be well....
It gets used for things like bushings in corrosive environments like boats. It has its uses. Just remember George and the turtle. I’m not kidding about that 😄
You gave people the feeling that they also can do this project if they wanted. Your personality was fun, which helps people be connected and help or understand things.
I came here from Paul's. Great vid! I'm considering making aluminum bronze for non sparking grinding media, so this is exactly what I'm interested in right now. I just need a foundry first. I might go electric. We have cold winters where I live, and it would be nice to be able to melt stuff indoors. Keep upp the good work!
I can tell you from personal experience that melting that much metal stinks. I mean smells really bad. If it's dirty or painted or anything that's not pure, forget about indoors. I do it my garage and I have to have the front and back door open to keep air moving through and the smoke from building up. Sometimes thats not enough. Making non-sparking abrasive sounds really cool. Will it be bound to something like canvas or free like for use in a blaster?
I'm doing some amateur diy chemistry, so I have very good ventilation. I also like the fact that an electric foundry/kiln is quiet. The grinding media is for a ball mill, milling aluminum powder, blp, etc. My plan is to cast aluminum bronze cylpebs.
What??? You don't want to stand next to a deafening rocket engine like Paul and I do?? :-D Have you figured out how you're going to make your molds? It would seem that you'll need to make a bunch of cylpebs. How big are they?
swdweeb a cylpeb is basically just a short cylinder. A steel pipe, cut to pieces of the right length, welded to a steel plate should work. Do you know how to get the aluminum bronze as hard as possible? Quench or not to quench? Any thoughts?
I don’t know. I do know that I let a piece air cool yesterday and I could hardly cut it with a hacksaw. It just skated across it. Ended up cutting it with a cutoff wheel on my grinder.
I am gearing up to try this myself. It's interesting to read back through the comments on older videos. Such a mix of contradictory advice and personal anecdotes which may or may not have any bearing on the job at hand! I must see if I can scrape up enough copper for the job though. It's always harder to get than aluminium. Regards, Mark
I think its a little like a rite of passage. Everyone seems to feel the need to do it. There's no doubt about it making an alloy is pretty cool. This alloy isn't all that great but if you can find the copper, it's easy to make. I've grown to dislike Al-bronze as it shrinks so bad its a real pain to pour. Get your extra-large feeder ready. ;-)
It was not aluminum oxide that you saw your furnace was too hot for the copper and it vaporized some of the vaporized not exactly the best thing to breathe. If it melted that quickly it was way too hot
Hi Ron. Not yet. I've a had a few requests for one and I'm curious how it will sound myself. Finding the time is the issue at the moment. I have a long weekend coming up. I'd like to try it then.
That's a tough one. I'm guessing here because I don't have a good answer. I've heard of people having moisture in their molds that cause steam when the metal is poured in. They generally heat the molds to drive off any moisture. That seems unlikely and I've never preheated my steel mold. The other thing I've heard is gas being introduced in melting process. This is why people use "degassers" in their melted metal. This happens whenever there is oxygen present during the melt. Again this is something I've never seen and I've never used a degassing agent. I guess the last thing I can think of is metal being splashed into the mold during the pour. I doubt that you're doing that but maybe... Those are the best I can come up with . Sorry I don't have a more definitive answer.
Is it safe to look at molten copper/ inside of the furnace without welding shades? I finally got my furnace to melt copper, and while I do wear a full face shield, its just a plain clear one without any shade to it. My eyes seem fine, just curious. I'll have to get a video of mine up, its just hard in the city, bc the dam kids always want to watch what I'm doing whenever I'm working on something. Also after some of the questions I get from them, really makes me consider home schooling my daughter! I told the neighbor boy (hes around 12 or so) that copper melts around 1000C and he says "wow thats cold". I'm like what? Thats around 2000F. Then he tells me school told him thats the difference between Fahrenheit and Celsius, Celsius is cold and Fahrenheit is hot! Man these poor kids!
yeah, we all feel that way about the next generation ;-D present company excepted of course. That's a good question. It gets yellow hot but I don't know if its the spectrum that is a problem or the intensity. I did a quick google search and found nothing. If you come across something, let me know.
swdweeb I couldn't find much of anything, ecept for steel. But that's alot hotter. Invisible infrared could be a problem, because you can't feel that cooking your eyes. It's like looking at the sun through dark glass, it might not hurt to look at, but if it doesn't block IR, it can still cook your retinas. Do you wear any eye protection when doing this, besides normal safety glasses/face shield?
I just spoke to Martin about it. He does not believe molten copper is damaging to your eyes. Don't take either of our words for it, but the general consensus is wearing welding goggles presents several safety concerns as well, like not being able to see anything but the glowing metal. Martin wears a clear safety shield as do I.
Thanks for finding out, that was my thought as well, I was thinking its more dangerous if you can't see what you're doing, than the potential danger of eye damage looking at the molten metal.
Why wouldn't you heat up, and melt, the copper, first, since it melts at the higher temperature?!... Then, while adding the aluminum, it would readily melt into the already liquid copper. I would caution, that it's very important to "pre-heat" (dry) everything before dropping pieces into a solution! (You don't want to cause a "steam explosion"!)
Oh man, you have no idea how badly I don't want to cause an explosion :-D I actually had +olfoundryman make the same comment. Prior to that I had been given comments that said you should melt the aluminum first and that they copper would begin forming the alloy at pre-copper-melt tempereatures. What you and +olfoundryman said makes perfect sense and I'll be doing that going forward. Assuming I find more copper to melt, I'm out :-)
@@swdweeb Maybe somebody said this somewhere, but molten Al is very corrosive, it dissolves the copper at well below it's melting point, that's why you melt the Al first! The melting point of Al bronze is lower than Al melting point!
@@MatthewTinker-au-pont-blanc Another of my early.. ignorant... videos. I now know better realize that the alloy starts to form before the copper melts. I melt the aluminum first now. Although I really don;t do all that much aluminum-bronze as it shrinks so badly. Pretty much do tin-bronze instead now.
So, you mix/smelt via weight, and not mass? Those two would mostly likely be very different. Have you tried both ways, using mass displacement? I am new at this, and love that you are sharing and teaching.
I'm glad you're finding my videos helpful. Thanks for letting me know. Alloys are done by weight, not displacement. Smelting, FWIW, is the process by which metal is extracted from ore. By the time we get it all we're doing is melting it. ;-)
I assume you are talking about dross that is formed as the metal melts. This is due to metal oxidizing. Once thing you can try, and I know this is going to sound crazy, is to add a little borax and a small piece of broken glass to the metal as it is melting. The borax and glass will melt and float to the top of the metal covering it and keeping it from oxidizing. I have greatly increased my yield with tin-bronze and copper by doing this. I don't really make aluminum bronze any more but it should work the same. Of course you will need to "scrape" the glassy liquid off the top of the metal before you pour. If you don't, you will get a brown-colored glass in your metal. You don't want that.
I'll open with "I don't know". There, now that that is out of the way, can I ask why 70:30 instead of 90:10? I know from personal experience that too much aluminum in the ratio will make aluminum bronze very brittle czcams.com/video/LO9j4KodTsE/video.html. I didnt measure stuff in that video but I estimate I was down around 82:18 with my ratio. I'd be very interested to hear how your cannon turns out.
@@swdweeb 30% cu 70 Al forms a low melting point eutectic, which is lower than the melting point of aluminium so would be very easy to handle and also one could use a large crucible made of steel which is cheap...In terms of safety and economy it is the best way to go....
@@wijpke I misread your original comment as 70%cu 30%Al, not that it would have mattered as I have zero experience in the alloy you're describing. As I said before, I'd really like to see how things turn out.
Thanks! I was going to try and do it today but I think I'm going to look for a hair dryer at the thrift store so I can try forced air like Paul is doing. It takes me forever to get hot enough to melt the copper. I think I'm also going to make a smaller flask so I don't have to ram up so much petrobond each time.
The white smoke is probably Zinc Oxide fumes and the copper you're putting in there isn't pure copper but brass and the zinc is boiling off due to its low boiling point...I had the similar experience once and yes, don't breathe the Zinc fumes.
I'm pretty sure I had reasonably pure copper. I made my ingots out of copper pipe and cut off all of the brass fittings that were on it. I ended up with dross on top and below the copper when it melted. So I thin I got most of the impurities (lighter and heavier) out of it. Someone else made similar comment about the white smoke being aluminum oxide saying that I got the aluminum a lot hotter than I needed to before I added the copper. I've since made more like in my follow-up video on the hammer and with that I added the copper much sooner in the process. I haven't seen the white cloud again. I generally try (not always) to make ingots first. I find that I get a lot less dross whether its copper or aluminum from the ingots than I do from unprocessed scrap. Thanks for your comments. :-)
+swdweeb I'm glad you took it the right way unlike some people I have seen anyways I subscribed to your channels and I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of good stuff from you
I don't need any more hobbies, stop it! ;-) I haven't tried glass. I'd have to look into that. I don't know how hot you have to get it before it melts.
+swdweeb well that's okay last pretty difficult to work with anyways doesn't flow smoothly like metal slows more like honey any rate you do a good job at mixing Metals anyways I'm going to watch that video about making the hammer I'll bet it's just as good so far looks like you guys do good quality work and that's what I like to see so keep up the good work
The trash from the crucible weighed 6.6g. When you took it off, it gave a negative weight, which would be the negative balance of removing the trash. :)
Aye cap'n. ;-) I had to go back and watch the video to figure out what you were talking about. I forget what I said all of the time. You're absolutely right.
I assume you mean compared to bell bronze (approximately 80% copper / 20% tin). I don't know the answer. It has been a long time since I made aluminum bronze and I seem to recall seeing if it rang. I don't think that it did. There is probably a good reason bells are not cast with it, I just don't know what it is. It could be that its too brittle. It is very hard.
I just made some 80 copper 10 tin 8 lead and 2 zinc and cast some parts in sand. haven't machined it yet but the color is really nice. Although when it first came out of the sand it looked grey like ....like not bronze lol. But once I cut the runners and gates it's pretty. Has a great ring to it. Will report back with machinability soon
@@swdweeb the color of this recipe turned out to be a very light colored like a champaign color. It's was't golder like a brass. But it does have that tint to it. I expected a golder color but this will work for me. It machines excellent.
when making copper alloys, you dont need to get it to the melting temp of the copper, just the melting point of the final alloy and it'll dissolve down into the melt rather than needing to melt into it. Thats why it dissolved the copper so quickly, the free aluminum just dissolved it into it almost as fast as you can add it. Ingots look great, cant wait to see the finished hammer.
the alloying metals dont need to reach the extreme temps needed for all of the alloys, just the temp of the alloy your making. I know that you need to get the alloy to pouring temp, but to get it to dissolve all together, you just need to get it to the melting temp of the alloy your trying to make, not the highest temp metals in the alloy. Otherwise metals with ~1% titanium or tungsten would need to get way above the temp of the boiling points of the other metals, and you would just damage the other metals. It will dissolve at much lower temps. Try sticking a copper wire into some aluminum at aluminum temperatures, it'll dissolve into it.
Fascinating. I read both your comments. I had no idea. So let me ask you a theoretical questions. I noticed that the second copper ingot took longer to melt than the 1st. Do you suppose that was due to cooling the melted metal when I placed the warm copper ingots in it or that the melting point of the first alloy was raised after it formed? (1st alloy being the aluminum and 1st half of the copper) Thanks for the info!
part of it was melting temps of the mixed alloy raising higher and higher as the copper is added, part of it was the solubility of the copper into the melt based on the copper, and part of it was just the ingots that you were adding was cooling the melt too.
I would melt the aluminum first and then add small amounts of copper to it. The aluminum will react with the copper to form an alloy at temperatures lower than the melting point of copper. Keep adding copper until you achieve the ratio of copper/aluminum you want. Copper is hard to melt on it's own. It requires a yellow heat in my furnace to melt. I've found that the bronze melts a little lower temperature.
Someone else told me the same thing about not needing to overheat the aluminum. I would have never guessed it but the explanation I got was the alloy can start forming at a lower temperature than the copper melting point. I'm definitely going to try it a lower temp next time. Thanks
Yeah its kind like soldering, solder actually dissolves some of the copper to make the bond. As long as the aluminum is molten, it should start dissolving the copper as well. I've also seen alloys made the other way around, melt the metal with the higher melting point 1st, then add the lower melting point metal. If I remember correctly, that was a pro doing it in the video I saw. Not really sure which way is right.
It wasn't the aluminum that vaporized it was the copper I've seen it a thousand times it's a white smoke with a green flash stop. Cover that melts that fast will vaporize some every time
Is an alloy made by weight as you did or volume? To me by weight your mix isn’t 90/10. My thinking is it should be volume. Of course I’ve been known to be wrong on many occasions.
Unfortunately approximate is all I can do. I've already removed all of the original footage so I can't go back and look at timestamps. It was about 5 hours start to finish. Most of the time was spent waiting for things to cool down enough for me to handle them.
That's a good question. I really haven't done that much casting with aluminum bronze. Like many people it was the first alloy I made since the components are so easy to come by. It does tarnish, no question about that. I have coins that I've cast that are now tarnished (and I think look better). I can't tell you how quickly they tarnish though, I've never paid attention to it. Sorry
Paul quenched his ingots in water and they seemed to be pretty hard when he took a file to it I'm curious if the ones you let cool slow are just as hard. Great video!
Darn good question. Tell you what, when the temperature of my garage warms to somewhere near freezing this morning I'll run a file across it and see. Maybe I'll put that in the next video as well. I'll respond to you here as well.
Ok, I did a small casting tonight. it's soooo cool but you'll have to wait till the next hammer video to see it. ;-) I can tell you that letting it cool in the air makes it really hard. I couldn't cut it with a hacksaw, it just skated right off. I had to use a cut-off wheel to cut it.
I'm always hesitant to question people when I know almost nothing on a topic ;-) Where does copper fall in that argument? I heat copper and let it cool to soften it. Is it an edge case or is your comment really related to alloys as opposed to "elemental" metals? I really don;t know and would live to learn.
I've never used a flux for anything. Not saying it wouldnt help, I've just never used any. If I want to insure a good mix, I've melted the metals, poured them as ingots and then melt the ingots for the actual pour. Be careful with stirring. Keep in mind that stirring will stir in oxides and dross into your metal. If you're going to stir do it as gently as possible. In line with your other comments, aluminum bronze is the absolute worst when it comes to shrinkage. It shrinks more than anything else I've poured, much more.
Could you please make and test batch of equal weight brass and pewter. If I did the math right the end results will be an alloy of 46% tin 31% copper, 20% zinc, and 4% antimony
Well, there’s only a few problems with that. 1) I don’t melt brass. Zinc fumes scare me. 2) I don’t have pewter and I don’t know where to find it. 3) I’m having issues with my burner getting copper alloys to melt.
At the risk of having you unsub me, its Devil Forge, not forage and why would I buy one when I can built a better furnace at a fraction of the cost. I am planning a new furnace build this spring. I think it's going to be pretty darn nice.
I have no idea. Aluminum is food safe, copper is food safe. The bronze I make probably isn't because I started with old plumbing pieces so they contain lead in the soldered joints. A lot of it gets left in the crucible after the melt because of its weight but I wouldn't bet that none of it remains in the bronze. I don't see why you couldn't make a skillet out of it. The melting temperature is close to that of copper. It would weigh about 600 pounds and cost a fortune to make but you could probably cast one. ;-)
Me personally? No 😄 H. Kramer & Company sells a few copper/nickel alloys. www.hkramer.com/ Cu Sn Pb Zn Ni Alloy 1 57% 2% 9% 20% 12% Alloy 2 60% 3% 5% 16% 16% Alloy 3 60% 4% 4% 8% 20% Alloy 4 66% 6% 2% 2% 25% Hope that helps
I have been watching aluminum bronze youtube videos in preparation of making some myself. I am thinking that putting the aluminum in first and getting it real hot before the copper is added burns up some of the aluminum. I would just put everything in the crucible at the start if it fits.
So here is what another commenter (is that a word?) said. He said that you don;t have to get to copper melting heat before the alloy will begin to form. I did exactly what you're talking about and took the aluminum to near copper melting temperature. When I added the copper, the reaction was very fast, The first ingot melted into the aluminum almost instantly. That's when I get the plume of smoke that you didn't get to see. He said that they alloy will form at lower temperatures than the copper melting temperature. At least that's what I interpreted hi words as meaning. I melted the alloy tonight and made a casting from it. I can tell you that the allow took nearly as long to melt as my pure copper so I don't know. I watched a video where the guy melted the copper first and them added the aluminum. If I recall correctly it nearly blew up so I don;t recommend trying his method.
+swdweeb I wish I could do it as good as this guy does a lot of metalworking videos and everyone seems to be so professional and but when it comes to metal working I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground but I sure would like to learn
I knew very little if anything when I started. Probably still the case. There are some great people out there on CZcams that are more than willing to answer questions and give encouragement. If you run into someone that won't talk to you, move on there are others out there that will. Oh, and you can do any of the things I do, all it takes is money ;-)
I've been told that the alloy can actually start to form at lower temperatures than the melting point of copper. Aluminum is a fairly reactive metal. I melted the copper first and then added the aluminum one time and I got a big white cloud out of the furnace as soon as I added the aluminum. Havent done it that way since ;-)
Dropping cold metal into 660 degrees is safer then droping into 1000 degrees. Amatuer. Swdweeb you did it right. You gotta watch these know it alls who never done it commenting. Lol and they always claim to have all this experience but they say things that experienced people know don't work.
E in fatti il coppe costa e anche il casting costa tanto il ram e oro 24 karati yes il rame + il casting sono diventati gold l'errore che anno fatto nel due mila 14 gia io sapevo che cera qualcosa in quel metalli io extrargo oro dal rame yes
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@@swdweeb like copper for example has a higher rate of heat dispersal than aluminized bronze is there a way to increase the heat dispersal of aluminized bronze?
@@buckaroundandfindoutok, lets make sure we're talking about the same thing. Bronzes are copper alloys, that is copper + tin, copper + silicon, coper + aluminum,.. Aluminum bronze is a combination of aluminum and copper. I assume that is what you mean when you say aluminized bronze. That said, I'm not going to have an answer for you because I simply don't know. Both aluminum and copper have very high conductivity which is why both are used to transmit electricity. Both are also used in cooking utensils like pans. Copper is typically marketed as being better at distributing heat in a pan. Aluminum pans are simply lower cost so people buy them. The only way I can see improving the heat dispersion of aluminum bronze would be to add more copper to the allow or to coat the aluminum bronze with copper, like through electroplating. That is if you can improve it at all. Sorry I don't have a better answer for you.
@@swdweeb I'm merely asking because I'm trying to design a new type of engine and I'm thinking about using aluminized bronze due to its corrosion resistance, I was wondering if there was a way to mitigate its expansion due to clearance.
@@buckaroundandfindout Ahh... ok. I still don't know 😀 You'd be better off finding a metallurgist, which I'm not and unfortunately I don't know one either. You might try if a company like www.hkramer.com can point you in the right direction. I have a handbook from them that defines the characteristics of a number of alloys.
I melt the copper first and then add the aluminum. The idea is that a lot of the aluminum will burn while bringing it up to copper melting temperature.
Ok, so we disagree 😄
I really don't make aluminum bronze any more but I do make tin bronze and the same conditions exist, the tin melts at a much lower temperature than the copper. I used to put the tin and a portion of the copper in the crucible together, heat it up, and wait for the copper to melt before adding the rest of the copper. Now I heat an empty crucible till it is somewhere near copper melting temp and then add the tin and a portion of the copper. The tin obviously melts very quickly in this arrangement but the copper melts quickly too. I don't know that I lose any tin due to it burning off.
awesome video Perry. Cant wait to try this myself.
Kinda a rite of passage, making your first alloy. Good luck with it.
I made a few pandants with this stuff, and even tho I was using a cobalt drillbit for the string hole, halfway the metal became so hard the drillbit stopped cutting.
after reannealing it went through with no trouble.
a very interesting alloy indeed!
Yeah, I guess they use if for things like bushings because it work hardens. I drilled some tin-bronze the other day and it drilled without a problem.
Perhaps, you might try lightly "dusting" your ingot molds with fine powdered talc, or graphite, or, soot, from an acetylene torch, or candle, etc. That might prevent any molten metal from sticking to the steel.
Usually the shrinkage from cooling causes the ingots to release on their own without the need for any release agent. It's only when i pour the metal all over the top and it gets into the cracks that I have a problem ;-)
I looks nice. Certianly would be worth making just for something that is not structural that would be exposed to the weather. I have to make a set of house number and I would love them to be that color on a black background... Thank you for the demo and chat... Be well....
It gets used for things like bushings in corrosive environments like boats. It has its uses. Just remember George and the turtle. I’m not kidding about that 😄
Looks great! I love the more pro looking bars you have. Much better looking than muffins for sure
I've got four of them stacked on the desk here with me now. Makes me feel like I'm in Fort Knox. :-D
You gave people the feeling that they also can do this project if they wanted. Your personality was fun, which helps people be connected and help or understand things.
Forgot to add, good craftsmanship.
Perfect. That is exactly what I want to have happen. Thanks for letting me know that. You made my day!
swdweeb No problem boss
I came here from Paul's. Great vid! I'm considering making aluminum bronze for non sparking grinding media, so this is exactly what I'm interested in right now. I just need a foundry first. I might go electric. We have cold winters where I live, and it would be nice to be able to melt stuff indoors. Keep upp the good work!
I can tell you from personal experience that melting that much metal stinks. I mean smells really bad. If it's dirty or painted or anything that's not pure, forget about indoors. I do it my garage and I have to have the front and back door open to keep air moving through and the smoke from building up. Sometimes thats not enough.
Making non-sparking abrasive sounds really cool. Will it be bound to something like canvas or free like for use in a blaster?
I'm doing some amateur diy chemistry, so I have very good ventilation. I also like the fact that an electric foundry/kiln is quiet. The grinding media is for a ball mill, milling aluminum powder, blp, etc. My plan is to cast aluminum bronze cylpebs.
What??? You don't want to stand next to a deafening rocket engine like Paul and I do?? :-D Have you figured out how you're going to make your molds? It would seem that you'll need to make a bunch of cylpebs. How big are they?
swdweeb a cylpeb is basically just a short cylinder. A steel pipe, cut to pieces of the right length, welded to a steel plate should work. Do you know how to get the aluminum bronze as hard as possible? Quench or not to quench? Any thoughts?
I don’t know. I do know that I let a piece air cool yesterday and I could hardly cut it with a hacksaw. It just skated across it. Ended up cutting it with a cutoff wheel on my grinder.
I am gearing up to try this myself. It's interesting to read back through the comments on older videos. Such a mix of contradictory advice and personal anecdotes which may or may not have any bearing on the job at hand! I must see if I can scrape up enough copper for the job though. It's always harder to get than aluminium.
Regards,
Mark
I think its a little like a rite of passage. Everyone seems to feel the need to do it. There's no doubt about it making an alloy is pretty cool. This alloy isn't all that great but if you can find the copper, it's easy to make. I've grown to dislike Al-bronze as it shrinks so bad its a real pain to pour. Get your extra-large feeder ready. ;-)
Damn.
I stopped collecting copper from jobsites, focussing on brass & aluminum only.
Oops.
Doh.. start collecting it again. If nothing else it's probably worth more at the scrap yard that the other stuff ;-)
Stop stealing from the glaziers, lol. Local 740.
Love your channel
Well, thank you! 😄😄
It was not aluminum oxide that you saw your furnace was too hot for the copper and it vaporized some of the vaporized not exactly the best thing to breathe. If it melted that quickly it was way too hot
Great job , my first time to see an alloy made .
Imagine the cool hood ornaments you could be making for those beautiful cars of yours. ;-)
Did you ever make a bell from aluminum bronze? I think i mentioned it once.
Hi Ron. Not yet. I've a had a few requests for one and I'm curious how it will sound myself. Finding the time is the issue at the moment. I have a long weekend coming up. I'd like to try it then.
The color is amazing !
It really is. I think that is why so many casters like making and using it.
my aluminum bronze comes out with a lot of bubbles and inflates when I make it in the graphite or steel mold, do you know why this will happen?
That's a tough one. I'm guessing here because I don't have a good answer.
I've heard of people having moisture in their molds that cause steam when the metal is poured in. They generally heat the molds to drive off any moisture. That seems unlikely and I've never preheated my steel mold.
The other thing I've heard is gas being introduced in melting process. This is why people use "degassers" in their melted metal. This happens whenever there is oxygen present during the melt. Again this is something I've never seen and I've never used a degassing agent.
I guess the last thing I can think of is metal being splashed into the mold during the pour. I doubt that you're doing that but maybe...
Those are the best I can come up with . Sorry I don't have a more definitive answer.
Is it safe to look at molten copper/ inside of the furnace without welding shades? I finally got my furnace to melt copper, and while I do wear a full face shield, its just a plain clear one without any shade to it. My eyes seem fine, just curious. I'll have to get a video of mine up, its just hard in the city, bc the dam kids always want to watch what I'm doing whenever I'm working on something. Also after some of the questions I get from them, really makes me consider home schooling my daughter! I told the neighbor boy (hes around 12 or so) that copper melts around 1000C and he says "wow thats cold". I'm like what? Thats around 2000F. Then he tells me school told him thats the difference between Fahrenheit and Celsius, Celsius is cold and Fahrenheit is hot! Man these poor kids!
yeah, we all feel that way about the next generation ;-D present company excepted of course.
That's a good question. It gets yellow hot but I don't know if its the spectrum that is a problem or the intensity. I did a quick google search and found nothing. If you come across something, let me know.
swdweeb I couldn't find much of anything, ecept for steel. But that's alot hotter. Invisible infrared could be a problem, because you can't feel that cooking your eyes. It's like looking at the sun through dark glass, it might not hurt to look at, but if it doesn't block IR, it can still cook your retinas. Do you wear any eye protection when doing this, besides normal safety glasses/face shield?
I just spoke to Martin about it. He does not believe molten copper is damaging to your eyes. Don't take either of our words for it, but the general consensus is wearing welding goggles presents several safety concerns as well, like not being able to see anything but the glowing metal.
Martin wears a clear safety shield as do I.
Thanks for finding out, that was my thought as well, I was thinking its more dangerous if you can't see what you're doing, than the potential danger of eye damage looking at the molten metal.
Of course I also don’t stare into the furnace any longer than I have to either but I always have my face shield on when I do
Why wouldn't you heat up, and melt, the copper, first, since it melts at the higher temperature?!... Then, while adding the aluminum, it would readily melt into the already liquid copper. I would caution, that it's very important to "pre-heat" (dry) everything before dropping pieces into a solution! (You don't want to cause a "steam explosion"!)
Oh man, you have no idea how badly I don't want to cause an explosion :-D I actually had +olfoundryman make the same comment. Prior to that I had been given comments that said you should melt the aluminum first and that they copper would begin forming the alloy at pre-copper-melt tempereatures. What you and +olfoundryman said makes perfect sense and I'll be doing that going forward. Assuming I find more copper to melt, I'm out :-)
@@swdweeb Maybe somebody said this somewhere, but molten Al is very corrosive, it dissolves the copper at well below it's melting point, that's why you melt the Al first! The melting point of Al bronze is lower than Al melting point!
@@MatthewTinker-au-pont-blanc Another of my early.. ignorant... videos. I now know better realize that the alloy starts to form before the copper melts. I melt the aluminum first now. Although I really don;t do all that much aluminum-bronze as it shrinks so badly. Pretty much do tin-bronze instead now.
So, you mix/smelt via weight, and not mass? Those two would mostly likely be very different. Have you tried both ways, using mass displacement?
I am new at this, and love that you are sharing and teaching.
I'm glad you're finding my videos helpful. Thanks for letting me know.
Alloys are done by weight, not displacement.
Smelting, FWIW, is the process by which metal is extracted from ore. By the time we get it all we're doing is melting it. ;-)
I melted aluminium bronze in furnace but the melting/burning loss is 15-20%. How can i reduce melting/burning loss can please guide...
I assume you are talking about dross that is formed as the metal melts. This is due to metal oxidizing. Once thing you can try, and I know this is going to sound crazy, is to add a little borax and a small piece of broken glass to the metal as it is melting. The borax and glass will melt and float to the top of the metal covering it and keeping it from oxidizing.
I have greatly increased my yield with tin-bronze and copper by doing this. I don't really make aluminum bronze any more but it should work the same.
Of course you will need to "scrape" the glassy liquid off the top of the metal before you pour. If you don't, you will get a brown-colored glass in your metal. You don't want that.
Subscribed because of the ending, and you're a nice guy, lol.
Well, thank you.
Ok, I had to go watch the ending again. What was it about it that you liked? That I can't point or that I linked Paul? ;-)
This guy is too happy
Had the Egyptians discovered aluminum, then their bronze weapons would have been more powerful. Aluminum bronze would make a much better kopesh.
Yeah its hard stuff, but with hardness often comes brittleness.
Subscribed from Paul's garage. Great job
Thank you Andy!
I want to cast an aluminium bronze cannon would a 30 % copper 70 % aluminium mix work for this? The cannon will have very thick walls...
I'll open with "I don't know". There, now that that is out of the way, can I ask why 70:30 instead of 90:10? I know from personal experience that too much aluminum in the ratio will make aluminum bronze very brittle czcams.com/video/LO9j4KodTsE/video.html. I didnt measure stuff in that video but I estimate I was down around 82:18 with my ratio. I'd be very interested to hear how your cannon turns out.
@@swdweeb 30% cu 70 Al forms a low melting point eutectic, which is lower than the melting point of aluminium so would be very easy to handle and also one could use a large crucible made of steel which is cheap...In terms of safety and economy it is the best way to go....
@@wijpke I misread your original comment as 70%cu 30%Al, not that it would have mattered as I have zero experience in the alloy you're describing. As I said before, I'd really like to see how things turn out.
Did you use any flux in the melt? I didn't notice any in your setup
No, I don’t have any proper fluxes. I don’t use table salt or borax
Good luck with the casting!
Thanks! I was going to try and do it today but I think I'm going to look for a hair dryer at the thrift store so I can try forced air like Paul is doing. It takes me forever to get hot enough to melt the copper. I think I'm also going to make a smaller flask so I don't have to ram up so much petrobond each time.
The white smoke is probably Zinc Oxide fumes and the copper you're putting in there isn't pure copper but brass and the zinc is boiling off due to its low boiling point...I had the similar experience once and yes, don't breathe the Zinc fumes.
I'm pretty sure I had reasonably pure copper. I made my ingots out of copper pipe and cut off all of the brass fittings that were on it. I ended up with dross on top and below the copper when it melted. So I thin I got most of the impurities (lighter and heavier) out of it.
Someone else made similar comment about the white smoke being aluminum oxide saying that I got the aluminum a lot hotter than I needed to before I added the copper. I've since made more like in my follow-up video on the hammer and with that I added the copper much sooner in the process. I haven't seen the white cloud again.
I generally try (not always) to make ingots first. I find that I get a lot less dross whether its copper or aluminum from the ingots than I do from unprocessed scrap.
Thanks for your comments. :-)
I have to say you're kind of funny in a good way you make me laugh sometimes
:-D Thanks, I try to have fun while I'm doing this stuff.
+swdweeb I'm glad you took it the right way unlike some people I have seen anyways I subscribed to your channels and I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of good stuff from you
+swdweeb anyways I am curious have you ever tried doing glass before cuz you can make some real beautiful things out of old glass bottles
I don't need any more hobbies, stop it! ;-)
I haven't tried glass. I'd have to look into that. I don't know how hot you have to get it before it melts.
+swdweeb well that's okay last pretty difficult to work with anyways doesn't flow smoothly like metal slows more like honey any rate you do a good job at mixing Metals anyways I'm going to watch that video about making the hammer I'll bet it's just as good so far looks like you guys do good quality work and that's what I like to see so keep up the good work
Hi from across the pond, South Wales, UK. Another new subscriber from Paul's garage, looks like you've got some great content on here 👍
Thank you, I appreciate the encouraging words. Have a very Merry Christmas. :-D
swdweeb merry Christmas to you too 👍👍
The trash from the crucible weighed 6.6g.
When you took it off, it gave a negative weight, which would be the negative balance of removing the trash. :)
Aye cap'n. ;-) I had to go back and watch the video to figure out what you were talking about. I forget what I said all of the time. You're absolutely right.
You seem like a decent fella.
I subscribed and hit the bell to get notified about all yer uploads. :D
Thanks, I think I am but I guarantee you there people out there definitely disagree ;-)
I think I might know a bit about that.
I am a jerk, after al. LOL
Nice job
And i really like how you keep laghing
Meery christmas
Ha! :-D Thank you. Merry Christmas to you as well.
Is it generate bell ringing sound like pure bronze?
I assume you mean compared to bell bronze (approximately 80% copper / 20% tin). I don't know the answer. It has been a long time since I made aluminum bronze and I seem to recall seeing if it rang. I don't think that it did. There is probably a good reason bells are not cast with it, I just don't know what it is. It could be that its too brittle. It is very hard.
I just made some 80 copper 10 tin 8 lead and 2 zinc and cast some parts in sand. haven't machined it yet but the color is really nice. Although when it first came out of the sand it looked grey like ....like not bronze lol. But once I cut the runners and gates it's pretty. Has a great ring to it. Will report back with machinability soon
I’ve seen plenty of that grey color using petrobond. I always assumed it was a reaction to the oil
@@swdweeb the color of this recipe turned out to be a very light colored like a champaign color. It's was't golder like a brass. But it does have that tint to it. I expected a golder color but this will work for me. It machines excellent.
when making copper alloys, you dont need to get it to the melting temp of the copper, just the melting point of the final alloy and it'll dissolve down into the melt rather than needing to melt into it. Thats why it dissolved the copper so quickly, the free aluminum just dissolved it into it almost as fast as you can add it. Ingots look great, cant wait to see the finished hammer.
the alloying metals dont need to reach the extreme temps needed for all of the alloys, just the temp of the alloy your making. I know that you need to get the alloy to pouring temp, but to get it to dissolve all together, you just need to get it to the melting temp of the alloy your trying to make, not the highest temp metals in the alloy. Otherwise metals with ~1% titanium or tungsten would need to get way above the temp of the boiling points of the other metals, and you would just damage the other metals. It will dissolve at much lower temps. Try sticking a copper wire into some aluminum at aluminum temperatures, it'll dissolve into it.
Fascinating. I read both your comments. I had no idea. So let me ask you a theoretical questions. I noticed that the second copper ingot took longer to melt than the 1st. Do you suppose that was due to cooling the melted metal when I placed the warm copper ingots in it or that the melting point of the first alloy was raised after it formed? (1st alloy being the aluminum and 1st half of the copper)
Thanks for the info!
part of it was melting temps of the mixed alloy raising higher and higher as the copper is added, part of it was the solubility of the copper into the melt based on the copper, and part of it was just the ingots that you were adding was cooling the melt too.
Thanks
I would melt the aluminum first and then add small amounts of copper to it. The aluminum will react with the copper to form an alloy at temperatures lower than the melting point of copper. Keep adding copper until you achieve the ratio of copper/aluminum you want.
Copper is hard to melt on it's own. It requires a yellow heat in my furnace to melt. I've found that the bronze melts a little lower temperature.
white smoke aluminum oxide. Aluminum will burn off if left alone in the crucible. no need to overheat the lower melting point constituents.
Someone else told me the same thing about not needing to overheat the aluminum. I would have never guessed it but the explanation I got was the alloy can start forming at a lower temperature than the copper melting point. I'm definitely going to try it a lower temp next time.
Thanks
Yeah its kind like soldering, solder actually dissolves some of the copper to make the bond. As long as the aluminum is molten, it should start dissolving the copper as well. I've also seen alloys made the other way around, melt the metal with the higher melting point 1st, then add the lower melting point metal. If I remember correctly, that was a pro doing it in the video I saw. Not really sure which way is right.
It wasn't the aluminum that vaporized it was the copper I've seen it a thousand times it's a white smoke with a green flash stop. Cover that melts that fast will vaporize some every time
Is an alloy made by weight as you did or volume? To me by weight your mix isn’t 90/10. My thinking is it should be volume. Of course I’ve been known to be wrong on many occasions.
whether I did measured correctly is debatable. The alloy is made by weight.
@@swdweeb thanks for the information. I’m pretty new to this, you videos are great keep them coming
@@kevingade5615 No sweat, I was confused about the ratios when I first started as well
I need the info. About your furnace , what kind of gas you use , because I try it
I already responded and told you propane. If you want to know about my furnace look here czcams.com/play/PLU1QP34Dv8Y7pdce_FW6IFtLlL44pfI3u.html
@@swdweeb thank you sir for your response, I try I think it's very beautiful in jewery use
Informative!
Thanks
can you tell us approximately how long it took to melt everything from start to finish?
Unfortunately approximate is all I can do. I've already removed all of the original footage so I can't go back and look at timestamps.
It was about 5 hours start to finish. Most of the time was spent waiting for things to cool down enough for me to handle them.
What kind of gas you use to your furnace sir?
I use propane
Thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching! 😄
Does dis alloy tarnish early?
That's a good question. I really haven't done that much casting with aluminum bronze. Like many people it was the first alloy I made since the components are so easy to come by. It does tarnish, no question about that. I have coins that I've cast that are now tarnished (and I think look better). I can't tell you how quickly they tarnish though, I've never paid attention to it. Sorry
Paul quenched his ingots in water and they seemed to be pretty hard when he took a file to it I'm curious if the ones you let cool slow are just as hard. Great video!
Darn good question. Tell you what, when the temperature of my garage warms to somewhere near freezing this morning I'll run a file across it and see. Maybe I'll put that in the next video as well. I'll respond to you here as well.
Other than steel, most metals end up in a harder state if they’ve been cooled slowly than if they’re quenched.
Ok, I did a small casting tonight. it's soooo cool but you'll have to wait till the next hammer video to see it. ;-) I can tell you that letting it cool in the air makes it really hard. I couldn't cut it with a hacksaw, it just skated right off. I had to use a cut-off wheel to cut it.
I'm always hesitant to question people when I know almost nothing on a topic ;-) Where does copper fall in that argument? I heat copper and let it cool to soften it. Is it an edge case or is your comment really related to alloys as opposed to "elemental" metals? I really don;t know and would live to learn.
You dont have to use any sort of flux to aid in the mixture of these metals?
I've never used a flux for anything. Not saying it wouldnt help, I've just never used any.
If I want to insure a good mix, I've melted the metals, poured them as ingots and then melt the ingots for the actual pour.
Be careful with stirring. Keep in mind that stirring will stir in oxides and dross into your metal. If you're going to stir do it as gently as possible.
In line with your other comments, aluminum bronze is the absolute worst when it comes to shrinkage. It shrinks more than anything else I've poured, much more.
Could you please make and test batch of equal weight brass and pewter. If I did the math right the end results will be an alloy of 46% tin 31% copper, 20% zinc, and 4% antimony
Well, there’s only a few problems with that. 1) I don’t melt brass. Zinc fumes scare me. 2) I don’t have pewter and I don’t know where to find it. 3) I’m having issues with my burner getting copper alloys to melt.
@@swdweeb Thanks for the reply. I get pewter cups and candle holders from Goodwill and Thrift Stores. When
you can find it, cheaper than ingots
You should buy a devil forage!
At the risk of having you unsub me, its Devil Forge, not forage and why would I buy one when I can built a better furnace at a fraction of the cost.
I am planning a new furnace build this spring. I think it's going to be pretty darn nice.
4:08 the number of the beast :o
Ha! That it is, that it is.
I tried 50 50 and it doesn't look like anything but heavy aluminum
if you mix it with that high a ratio of aluminum, it will shatter like glass.
@@swdweeb I'm going to have to re melt it.
but is it food safe and can i cast a skillet out of it?
I have no idea. Aluminum is food safe, copper is food safe. The bronze I make probably isn't because I started with old plumbing pieces so they contain lead in the soldered joints. A lot of it gets left in the crucible after the melt because of its weight but I wouldn't bet that none of it remains in the bronze. I don't see why you couldn't make a skillet out of it. The melting temperature is close to that of copper. It would weigh about 600 pounds and cost a fortune to make but you could probably cast one. ;-)
Ooooh so beautiful 🤤
Merry Christmas
...and a very Merry Christmas to sir as well. :-D
Can you make nickel brass
Me personally? No 😄
H. Kramer & Company sells a few copper/nickel alloys. www.hkramer.com/
Cu Sn Pb Zn Ni
Alloy 1 57% 2% 9% 20% 12%
Alloy 2 60% 3% 5% 16% 16%
Alloy 3 60% 4% 4% 8% 20%
Alloy 4 66% 6% 2% 2% 25%
Hope that helps
Came over from Paul's channel. Great vid. Clicked the Sub I am number 250 YEA US
That didn't last long, they've been jumping ship like mad this afternoon. Down to 247 now. ;-) Welcome and thanks for coming on board.
Are you a used car salesmen by day?
Nope just an old man that has pretty much given up on CZcams.
I have been watching aluminum bronze youtube videos in preparation of making some myself. I am thinking that putting the aluminum in first and getting it real hot before the copper is added burns up some of the aluminum. I would just put everything in the crucible at the start if it fits.
So here is what another commenter (is that a word?) said. He said that you don;t have to get to copper melting heat before the alloy will begin to form. I did exactly what you're talking about and took the aluminum to near copper melting temperature. When I added the copper, the reaction was very fast, The first ingot melted into the aluminum almost instantly. That's when I get the plume of smoke that you didn't get to see. He said that they alloy will form at lower temperatures than the copper melting temperature. At least that's what I interpreted hi words as meaning.
I melted the alloy tonight and made a casting from it. I can tell you that the allow took nearly as long to melt as my pure copper so I don't know.
I watched a video where the guy melted the copper first and them added the aluminum. If I recall correctly it nearly blew up so I don;t recommend trying his method.
U are good hearted
Thank you. You made my day ;-)
This is cool
I agree, making bronze ranks right up there with one of the cooler things in life ;-)
+swdweeb I wish I could do it as good as this guy does a lot of metalworking videos and everyone seems to be so professional and but when it comes to metal working I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground but I sure would like to learn
I knew very little if anything when I started. Probably still the case. There are some great people out there on CZcams that are more than willing to answer questions and give encouragement. If you run into someone that won't talk to you, move on there are others out there that will.
Oh, and you can do any of the things I do, all it takes is money ;-)
Is the 1058 in ounces?
All of the measurements were in grams, the math is easier. The ratios are the same, 10% aluminum by weight and 90% copper by weight.
I could be rich if i make dozens of that...
I know, that's what I thought too. Unfortunately it hasn't happened ;-)
Mix coper yellow ➕and gold ❓❓
Hi. Sorry, I do not know what you mean.
Copper melting point 1'085ºC and aluminium 660ºC...
I would have started with copper first. But eh! It worked!
I've been told that the alloy can actually start to form at lower temperatures than the melting point of copper. Aluminum is a fairly reactive metal. I melted the copper first and then added the aluminum one time and I got a big white cloud out of the furnace as soon as I added the aluminum. Havent done it that way since ;-)
Dropping cold metal into 660 degrees is safer then droping into 1000 degrees. Amatuer. Swdweeb you did it right. You gotta watch these know it alls who never done it commenting. Lol and they always claim to have all this experience but they say things that experienced people know don't work.
Ever dropped ice into boiling grease? Same concept. You always melt the coolest melt metal first then add and heat it up
Thanks for the confirmation ;-)
Don’t forget that you don’t have to melt all metals in an alloy, metals will dissolve into other metals at much lower temps than their melting point.
Sembra oro vero yes
Molto simile 😄
Ti do una con ferma e veranente oro yes e oro 24 karati
Io sono un chimico
@@massimilianoilardi3571 Quasi altrettanto costoso da realizzare ora. Il rame costa così tanto adesso.
E in fatti il coppe costa e anche il casting costa tanto il ram e oro 24 karati yes il rame + il casting sono diventati gold l'errore che anno fatto nel due mila 14 gia io sapevo che cera qualcosa in quel metalli io extrargo oro dal rame yes
GREAT VIDEO / UPLOAD MATE... NOW I'VE GOT ANOTHER METAL MELT VIDEO PROGRAM TO WATCH NOW ... I'VE DOT BIGSTACK"D , ARTBYADROCK, AND NOW YOURSELF, ANYHOOS I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT SOME OF YOUR OLDER VIDEO"S AND THEY ARE AWESOME WELL INTERESTING... THANK YOU 🍺😁✌️🇺🇲☮️☯️🇺🇲🇬🇧🌍🌏🌎🇬🇧🇷🇺🇳🇿🇺🇲
Thanks Kevin
Oro bello
😄
Ciao
ciao amico
Can you improve on the heat dispersal of an aluminized bronze?
I'm not sure what you mean
@@swdweeb like copper for example has a higher rate of heat dispersal than aluminized bronze is there a way to increase the heat dispersal of aluminized bronze?
@@buckaroundandfindoutok, lets make sure we're talking about the same thing. Bronzes are copper alloys, that is copper + tin, copper + silicon, coper + aluminum,.. Aluminum bronze is a combination of aluminum and copper. I assume that is what you mean when you say aluminized bronze. That said, I'm not going to have an answer for you because I simply don't know. Both aluminum and copper have very high conductivity which is why both are used to transmit electricity. Both are also used in cooking utensils like pans. Copper is typically marketed as being better at distributing heat in a pan. Aluminum pans are simply lower cost so people buy them. The only way I can see improving the heat dispersion of aluminum bronze would be to add more copper to the allow or to coat the aluminum bronze with copper, like through electroplating. That is if you can improve it at all.
Sorry I don't have a better answer for you.
@@swdweeb I'm merely asking because I'm trying to design a new type of engine and I'm thinking about using aluminized bronze due to its corrosion resistance, I was wondering if there was a way to mitigate its expansion due to clearance.
@@buckaroundandfindout Ahh... ok. I still don't know 😀 You'd be better off finding a metallurgist, which I'm not and unfortunately I don't know one either. You might try if a company like www.hkramer.com can point you in the right direction. I have a handbook from them that defines the characteristics of a number of alloys.