Why Did the German Army Fight to the End?
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- čas přidán 5. 03. 2018
- Why did the German army continue to fight the Allies even in the face of certain defeat? Following the Battle of Stalingrad and defeats on other fronts in 1943, the tide had turned against the German war machine - and most German officers knew it. The Wehrmacht’s Last Stand chronicles the final campaigns of WWII in Europe from January 1944 until the Wehrmacht’s ultimate collapse and the storming of Berlin by the Red Army in May 1945. Join us as Dr. Citino traces the “death ride” of the German army and explains why millions of men kept fighting in the face of increasingly hopeless odds.
That typically grim German contemporary late war joke, “enjoy the war whilst you can, the peace will be worse”.
And it was. Where the Wehrmacht withdrew the murdering, raping and pillaging started.
And for the average solider, especially on the eastern front, surrender was either a death sentence or a ticket to siberia.
@@DrSleazoid found the Nazi apologist.
@@williestyle35We don't apologize. We shall try again commie
@@williestyle35if a german surrendered to the soviets he was 100% gonna just be shot or be sent to a gulag, hes not a nazi he right
@@williestyle35stating a fact that soviets were just as brutal as the Russians isn’t apologetic
I love Dr Robert Citino! He is just so gripping in his story telling of WWII. His enthusiasm is infectious. Thank you.
Citino’s passion is undeniable, he really conveys a confidence that he truly knows what he explains. I’m sure he was very close to being insanely involved in his research. Doctorates take you to this next level. Well done, very comprehensive. Thanks for the post 👍
That's the kind of level of work a human needs to truely understand something.
Hjembrent Kent agreed 👍
I was thinking cocaine, but I'm willing to accept your version of events. Nevertheless, i enjoyed his lecture.
emotional unbased bs for the sake of the new religion - russophobia
@@sergm7195 the word Russophobia is an antisemitic dog whistle. Just so you know. And using it makes you look like a putinist propaganda bot.
I'm very happy to see you return to this series...your reactions are always very thoughtful and insightful!
As a young graduate I began my first job in Germany (West Germany, back then). I was 25 years old. I stayed at a small family run hotel opposite the railway station. The family had run it for years. It was a fine old building and I had estimated that it was built around 1880, judging from the style of its architecture. I spoke fluent German and got on with the family well. Herr Ralf Dommershausen would invite me up to the family's apartments to drink beer and to watch football: West Germany were on their way that year to winning a World Cup. Ralf was a very handsome and engaging man and we laughed a lot together as I listened to his stories. He had been aged just 10 years at the very end of the war. He told me that he and his friends used to 'shimmy up' to the loudspeakers attached high on lamp posts in the town to stuff old socks into them in order to muffle the recorded rantings of the Führer which were broadcast incessantly from them. He also told me that the Nazis had told the population that black US soldiers would eat captured German children. Herr Dommershausen had two older brothers. I can not remember their names. One evening I was invited to dinner with the family and there I met Ralf's brothers. Both were grim, tough, hard looking men, unsmiling with etched skin taught over their angular features. Both strikingly handsome and both tall, lithe and fit, though both would have been well into their seventies at the time. Both had been soldiers - and at least one, I think, an 'offizier' - in the Waffen SS. Still, today I get a shiver and a thrill when I recall that evening. I did not dare to ask them about their time fighting during the war. The company I worked for was founded by a young highly gifted physicist who had walked back to Germany after his release from a Russian POW camp sometime in the late 1940s. His company became, and still is, part of the world-famous German Mittelstand. I do look back fondly at my 10 years in Germany.
J Vincent
Many thanks for sharing your experiences.
Black people eat kids??? Lmao
Great, valuable insight! Very much appreciated! His brothers were Tough soldiers to have survived. Thank you for posting.
@Marshall Banana ha ha !
@Marshall Banana Some of us have heard the chimes at midnight! Some of us have lived, my dear boy!
One of those soldiers senselessly killed in the last year of the war was my Granddad, my Dad was 4 at that time and never new his father.
So sorry
How old was your Grandfather at the time?
@@patrickachille3529 he was 37 when he died in September 1944
My father's father died in one of the battles around the bridge at Remagden.My father never knew his father.His mother became a total drunk and my father and little sister were left alone many a nite at around 4 yrs old.Fucking horrible.My father was a terrible husband and father.My grandfather was around 26.His grave is near my home but recently we found that there were no remains buried here.Thats just one story.There are 10's of millions of others.If anyone believes there is glory in war is a fool.
The aftermath of the war still raged across the post-war generation and beyond. It's just not talked about much.
@@derduebel i agree, i believe poland deserves every demand for years to come
Vulgarity is not needed.
"Enjoy the war -- the peace will be terrible." -- Graffiti left on walls in Berlin in early 1945.
Waow. It can be understand is so different levels. But for sure it is a strong slogan.
Enjoyed this a lot!
Vielen Dank für diesen ausgezeichneten Vortrag!
It's very nice to see a long term academic of this caliber being engaged in a Q&A session like this. He was asked some very interesting questions, and clearly loved the chance to share his knowledge with an appreciative audience. I have no real interest in the high res history of WWII, but the enthusiasm, scope and ability to extract and share lessons fellows like this have to offer is fascinating.
Right I ro
😊😊
Compare to any politician or modern journo pushing some culture war angle perpetually skirting around their own explicit biases with zero intention of understanding the realities/stories they are selling
There’s a reason I enjoy military talks. The end game is always much more overt and less beating around the 😊bush about their own natural biases.
Several German army members switched side during the fights in Budapest when the Soviets showed up ; Wehrmacht members were soldiers and realized how horrible SS was but many did not dare to oppose. Some were fighting against SS in 1944-45 when they were given the option; that is why we need to be very careful not to let politicians brainwash masses.
XXX.zy schon
Fascinating lecture/Q&A, thanks for sharing.
Fantastic lecture! This is the second video I have watched from Dr. Citino and in both he is such a compelling and interesting speaker. I will be buying his book soon!
Very well worth your money Josh! Great book! I've read it twice.
'People should know when they are conquered.'
'Would you Quintus, would I?'
czcams.com/video/_q83jmxp8Ls/video.html
what is that quote from?
@@studinthemaking Gladiator
But you have 1 small problem , it's called the Morgenthau Plan. A Genocidal plan to rid the world of the German people. Before it was rescinded in 1953 it cost the lives of well over 15 million Germans. This plan was leaked to Germany in late 1944. The leaking of this Plan had the effect of 10 additional divisions in fighting power to the German front lines.
@@sultanofribs8622 The Morgenthau Plan was never seriously considered, the Nazis used it for Propaganda nothing more
I´ve been waiting literal years for another lecture from Dr. Citino on this topic, amazing, see you in an hour and a half.
Greatly interesting scholarship. Thanks Dr. Citino for that.
More people need to say this. Thank you for leaving the comment section up so people can actually share their own opinions with this video.
The reason for the largest loss in the final year is the obvious one. The German soldier wasn't fighting for someone else's homeland..they were in the end fighting to save their OWN homeland. And for your own homeland you fight the hardest
you're the only guy here that got it right
Yours is the most reasonable and logical explanation, when faced with the inevitable you may as well go down swinging since you will probably die anyway.
Not really.
They fought for evil, lust, power, money and loot. No excuses.
@@raydematio7585 they fought against that you fool.
As always I always enjoy hearing Robert Citino’s lectures and from the Q&A session it’s pretty clear that he’s just so enthusiastic in answering the questions with lots of thoughts given.
...and tons of of american chauvinism.
@@thevillaaston7811 : It's not that, just a ton of decibels.
@@bkucinschi I haven't caught him on any inconsistencies. He does know his facts. And all Americans are loud, it's part of the culture.
@@wr1120 : I agree. I never said he's wrong or anything, just the contrary. I was only ammused that he is a bit overenthusiatic and loud by any standard.
Very interesting and informative.
Thank you for posting.
@8:39.. So no high ranking Germans were in Stauffenberg's plot except: Colonel General Ludwig Beck, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, Major General Heinrich Graf zu Dohna-Schlobitten, General Alexander Freiherr von Falkenhausen, General Erich Fellgiebel, Colonel General Friedrich Fromm, Major General Reinhard Gehlen, Major General Rudolf von Gersdorff, Lieutenant General Paul von Hase, Major General Otto Herfurth, Colonel General Erich Hoepner, Field Marshal Günther von Kluge, General of the Artillery Fritz Lindemann, General Friedrich Olbricht, Major General Hans Oster, General Friedrich von Rabenau, General Hans Speidel, Major General Helmuth Stieff, Colonel General Carl-Heinrich von Stülpnagel, Lieutenant General Fritz Thiele, General Georg Thomas, General Karl Freiherr von Thüngen, Major General Henning von Tresckow, General Quartermaster of the Army Eduard Wagner, Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben, General Gustav Heistermann von Ziehlberg.
My grandfather went towards the US army with a white flag to prevent our village from beeing bombed, only after he could be sure the SS has fled the area. He was more afraid of the SS than of the Americans. Many germans died in the last days by SS groups prowling around on the search of soldiers as well as civilians who wanted to surrender.
My grandfather joined the Gebirgsjäger (Mountain Rangers) So he wouldn't be drafted into the SS. At some point, people knew what crimes the SS was committing. He died in the battle of Monte Cassino.
@@solokom check youtube documentary other losses and Eisenhowers Rhein meadow deathcamps
@@solokom read the book Germany must perish by theodore Kaufman
@@quercus8833 well yeah, that's just like your opinion man.
@@quercus8833 So the Socialists who protested and died in the run up to and during the early Nazi years were no different. The youth movements where young people risked their lives and lost them opposing Nazism were no different. The Theologians, Scientists, Philosophers etc. who fled or were killed were no different. Perhaps you might reflect on how your totalising statement could lead you into some very problematic territory; territory akin to that you claim to despise.
Wonderful. Thank you for posting. I need to listen to more scholarly talks.
Great presentation - thanks.
Dr. Citino is fascinating. This was stellar. (I just now found this.)
I really enjoyed this and I only wish I seen it a year ago. My Uncle Frank was an interpreter in WWII in the American Army, he spoke fluent German and Italian. At the end of the war he was in Italy..I very much remember him telling us as kids that General Kesselring did not surrender unconditionally and in fact more or less dictated what his surrender term would be..however, I can't really seem to find a lot of information on that. Can you fill in some details?
Really enjoy listening to Robert Citino. Thanks for sharing.
This is one of the most illuminating presentations on the subject I've ever listened to. So much has been written or said about WW2 that it is hard to separate fact from fiction, reality from misconception. To learn the lessons of history we must first understand what actually happened.
We'll said uncie P!
Keep in mind though, that this too is but a narrative framing of events. This is just another version of the story and while it might seem a convincing tale and logically consistent, it still can never really claim to be the truth, as in practically all things historical.
A claim to truth would even be questionable if one was present when everything happened and was able to read the minds of everyone involved, as both human perception and interpretation are flawed.
Looks like your name is following the path Uncle Hitler took
Great video, thank you for posting it. At about 1:16:50 Dr. Citino alludes to the the tv show Gilligan's Island and Japanese soldiers hiding out there not realizing the war was over. I wonder if he is aware there was an actual episode a Japanese sub-mariner who lands on the island not realizing the war was over.
Love Robert's passion.
I gedacht it was meth
This is a good talk.
Fantastic interview. Gotta get his book.
... he made me laugh a few times as well.
Excellent questions from the gallery. I was appreciative, too.
Citino knows his stuff ! Always love his lectures
Why did he butcher every german word he said 😂
He want to sound like an expert but that's almost just Yiddish
My mother was born in 1947 in a small town in Ukraine. As a young girl I was always visiting that little town during my summer holidays. Once my mom introduced me to her friend, who was a bit older than my mom, but they knew each other since their childhood. She was a cheerful and a bit overweight woman. Later my mom told me that that friend of hers when she was about 5 years of age had crawled out of a mass grave and somehow miraculously survived after mass execution of local civilians during occupation. She was destined to be buried alive, as the bullet missed her. But the execution was done in the evening, it become dark and probably it was decided to fill the grave/trench in the morning. I still remember that woman and how her cheerful look contrasted with the horrible story.
In 1993 as a student I spent August in Crimea. Once I was eating seafood soup in one of local taverns, I noticed an older man with a prosthetic leg , he ordered the same soup. I do not remember why we started talking. We both spoke some English, so conversation was possible, as he appeared to be German. He apparently has lost his leg in Crimea "somewhere nearby" during WWII. He told me that he had that urge to visit the place where he had fought and where he had lost his leg. I could not figure out my own feelings. I recalled immediately how exactly in this place in 1943 children sick with tuberculosis and therefore treated in Crimea sanatorium were simply killed by Germans. Little kids, sick, many in casts, some tried to hide, some tried to escape. I was looking at him thinking "was he one of those who was killing those children?", but at the same time a saw just an old man who was eating soup. I still have a very mixed feelings. I cannot hate him, I cannot forgive him.
As for soviet soldiers raping women in Germany... this is nothing to be proud of, but German soldiers had been raping girls and women and doing other horrors in the Soviet Union for almost four years. And soviet soldiers saw the horrible evidence of it when they were pushing the invaders out. Add PTSD to it (there were no such a term in those years though), machine guns, and the thirst for revenge. War is a horrible thing. The flamboyant manners of the speaker enter in dissonance with the matter of the discussion. That is probably because Dr. Citino does not have anything what would have touched him or his family personally.
My grandma was a doctor at sanitary trains during WWII until the train was bombed in 1941 and she found herself on occupied territory in Soviet Army uniform. It was a miracle that she survived. When I was asking her to tell me about the war she would always change the topic, I just remember how her eyes were changing as if she was looking inside into something horrible and dark.
Evgenia Valova The first victim of the war is the truth. Till the end the german army had the death penalty for rape. This means, every german soldier who would be caught would be executed.
@@davecopp9356 please do some minimal research on Barbarossa decree: ‘German soldiers who commit crimes against humanity, the USSR and prisoners of war are to be exempted from criminal responsibility, even if they commit acts punishable according to German law.’ Looks like it’s so tempting to glorify fascist Germany, right?
@@evgeniavalova
Treatment of punishable offenses of members of the Wehrmacht and its employees against the native population
1. For offenses committed by members of the Wehrmacht and its employees against enemy civilians, prosecution is not compulsory, not even if the offense is at the same time a military crime or violation.
2. While judging offenses of this kind, it should be considered in every case, that the breakdown in 1918, the time of suffering of the German people after that, and the numerous blood sacrifices of the movement in the battle against national socialism were decidedly due to the Bolshevist influence, and that no German has forgotten this.
3. The judge examines therefore whether in such cases disciplinary action is justified or whether it is necessary to take legal steps. The judge orders the prosecution of offenses against civilians through court-martial only if it is considered necessary for the maintenance of discipline or the security of the troops. This applies, for instance, to cases of serious offenses which are based on sexual acts without restraint, which derive from a criminal tendency, or which are a sign that the troop threatens to mutiny. The punishable offenses of destroying senselessly quarters as well as supplies or other captured goods to the disadvantage of the own troop should, as a rule, be judged as more leniently.
The order of the inquiry proceedings requires in every individual case the signature of the judge.
Extreme care must be'exercised when judging the authenticity of the statements of enemy civilians.
@@JEJAK5396 and you think that because someone typed that text there were no war crimes committed by German troops? Educate yourself at list with basics. You may start here: czcams.com/video/XnVOi22cw80/video.html
@@evgeniavalova I quoted the Barbarossa decree. Since you said do some research, I did. Rape was not an official SS or Wehrmacht policy, nor condoned.
Word of advice, go to the museum if you're in New Orleans. I visited in July 2007. Nice place!
The museum has been much improved in recent years!
Very enjoyable. Easy to listen to and must be a great teacher. Excellent.
I really enjoyed this program , very informative and well presented
As a retired veteran, the answer is easy. If you truly believe in a cause, it's worth fighting for to the end. It's no more complicated than that.
I wonder how many American soldiers believed that the Vietnam war was worth fighting after the Tet offensive. It was immoral of Lyndon Johnson to commit American forces to fight a war that he had no intention of winning.
Robert Easton he wasn’t the only president who thought the cause lost. See the major pbs series Vietnam available on Netflix.
That's absolute twoddle. "As an enthusiastic sadist, I truely believe in the mass killing of vulnerable minorities - and that's worth fighting for to the end. It's no more complicated than that."
Christ alive Hawk, sharpen up.
Amen to that, dude !
I am aware that Richard Nixon knew that the war was unwinnable. He was obsessed with the movie Patton.. He liked the line that said " America has never lost a war and will never lose a war". Of course, WW 2 was a totally different war than the Vietnam War. @@listohan
I suppose one of the reasons why the generals went on until the end is one I have often observed in people however skilled in their jobs :
Many are not able, or maybe inclined, to see their work within the wider context of society. They do the tasks at hand without wondering what the broader purpose is.
I can easily imagine German generals basically losing themselves in the battles at hand and pushing from their minds how futile and even counter-productive their actions are.
As long as there was a big profit to be had, either politically or monetarily, who cares about the soldiers? It has almost always been so. Sadly ...
Many just committed horrible warcrimes and did not want to go to jail or be sentenced to death.
They had no reason to quit the war. Their life was over. Whether they surrendered or they fought to the end-the result would be the same for them. They knew they were going to be executed or go to prison for a long time for war crimes.
Also, the fear of what the USSR was going to do to them (especially after what Germany did to the USSR the last 3 years).
@war: compared to war (combat a life or death struggle) ex post facto formally educated have theory's . ask a few grunts their opinion. In nam ...in the day broads we're all over you .after dark black silk and a in sniper rifle. No rules laws or quarter. Unless you were in the shit! You talk the talk BUT YOU DIDN'T WALK THE TALK!!! YOU WIN A WAR BY MAKING THEM DIE FOR THEIR COUNTRY
I would absolutely love to converse with Professor Citino about the minutia of the German Army combat operations on the Eastern Front of the European Theater.
Dr. Citino deserves aplenty of time to express his expertise of German War-making throughout WWII.
Citino is such a fascinating listen
But he's extremely knowledgable: knows so much; without notes. Extraordinary.
Boring and extremely excitable
@@22TONYB22 Boring? Not in my opinion. Probably the most knowledgeable speaker I have yet heard. No offense. I liked what he had to say about the fighting qualities of the American soldier at the time. It was tough to be truthful about that but I'd read about it before. Except for our AAF, we took our time getting it into it, leaving all of the earlier fighting to the Brits
@@billcallahan9303 Interesting subject Bill Callahan but his delivery was what bored me. Cocky, too assured. A little more humility would have served better, IMO
@@22TONYB22 For a much better presentation Tony, watch "Eastern Front - Final Victories" Just watched it myself. This guy, forgot his name, but he puts our former one in the shade...that I thought was great.
@@billcallahan9303 Thanks. I will check it out
I always appreciate Mr Citino's talks. You can't say the man lacks passion for the subject.
Make that enthusiasm.
Excellent, thanks.
Cimino is a very good and entertaining writer and a very engaging lecturer. Very good and, undoubtedly, makes you think.
“Huge bribes at the top, and bullets at the bottom.” Classic!
Sadly, yes.
Had the pleasure of taking Citino for Military History at EMU. Great prof.
Marvelous opening lecture!
Tank you Dr. Citino for a quite informative lecture & discussion, but the speed by which you lecture & explain is faster than a MG-34 peaking sometime up to a MG-3 !!
A little over zealous imho. Almost annoying...
You can't keep ignoring the effect of the unconditional surrender demand by saying "well, it can be argued it had some effect". This is pivotal.
Ajmet C Ay 1 year ago; It was pivotal insofaras in a victorious coalition of allies no separate peace/surrender negotiations would be contemplated. Negotiations contradict unconditional.
Stalin and Molotov understood that unquestionably and so did Hirohito. It impacted him to a degree not fully appreciated by the West. His grandfather Meiji Tenno, the Great Reformer who had in 1868 dispossessed the Shogun Yoshinobu Tokugawa of his position and vested the roles of shogun and emperor once again into a single person. Ascending to the throne in 1926, Hirohito not only reigned over the Japanese Empire but he ruled it as well.
Constrained not only by centuries of custom and precedent, even though his decision was final, the years to 1941 impacted Japan's rise to global recognition profoundly and among the powerful clan figures in industry there was no shortage of men who would welcome the return of a shogun, especially as the military began to gain political power
Though he learned to tread carefully, Hirohito was no shrinking violet and wielded his authority carefully. The position of the emperor and his empire was in his hands as was his responsibility as the leader of a nation determined to emulate the Western Powers.
Warren Glover Thursday 25 November 2021 2:11AM
@@warrenglover6633 The Japanese emperors were less powerful for a thousand years than current European kings. I doubt that Hirohito had the power and authority to stop the army in the period from 1937 to 1945 even though his position must have been comparable to the WWI emperors. But in the end those three couldn't turn things around either.
@@wr1120 Yoshinobu Tokugawa officially resigned the shogunate 9 Nov 1867. Recorded history has the shogunate beginning as an institution in 1192. That establishes the shogunate as covering roughly 676 years
"I doubt that Hirohito had the power and authority to stop the army in the period from 1937 to 1945...."
Hirohito was enthroned as Emperor of the Japanese Empire in 1926 upon the death of his father Taisho Tenno. From the First Sino-Japanese War (1894-95) the IJA had a permanent presence on the Chinese mainland. It solidified its presence via the Russo-Japanese War (1904-05) by expelling Russia from its extra-territorial territories adjacent to the Yellow Sea and the Manchurian railways it had built. To protect these assets from lawless marauding and petty warlords it created the Kwantung Army in 1906 to occupy and administer these territories.
The process of Dynastic change in China gathered strength from the Taiping Rebellions forward and forboded as bloody an upheaval as had characterised previous regime changes. Hirohito grew to manhood being imbued with notions of a Japanese manifest destiny in East Asia and possibly eastern Siberia. Though this, of course was not the entirety of his education by any means. The IJA in Manchuria became a government unto itself and paid lip service to Tokyo's authority. Many of the militarists who came to lead Japan's expansionist policies served in the Kwantung Army, including Hideki Tojo.
It can be safely postulated (despite a profligate destruction of records) that, given the attitudes of his chamberlains and advisors, Hirohito's agile and thirsty intellect became enthused with his nation's expansive destiny. That enthusiasm suffered a very serious blow after the Battle of Midway and it never recovered.
I agree that as an beneficiary of his grandfather Meiji was initially an untried ruler as both Emperor and Shogun and needed to impose his will observing utmost caution. I wrote so in my previous post. Nevertheless, his will and authority was acknowledged as implacable when a decision was forced upon his government.
Warren Glover Friday 10 December 2021 5:59 AM
In replying to two year old posts: Hirohito was a clueless fool who had some combination of not understanding what was going on and wishful thinking, despite Warren Glover's comments above. Most notably, the Japanese high command were placing all their eggs in a basket that the Soviet Union (!!!) would save them - because the USSR had not declared war yet, they thought ol' Joe Stalin would speak up for Japanese independence and call his buddies off. Hirohito was the person who COULD have saved thousands of lives by calling the war off early. He did it eventually, which I suppose is better than never doing it, but make no mistake, he & the Japanese leaders had all the information that the war was totally lost many months in advance, and they have blood on their hands for their choices. (Well, they do anyway, but extra blood from not ending a pointless war sooner.)
26:51 "You act in haste and, of course, you have leisure time to repent." Life in a nutshell!!!! A WONDERFUL QUOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My grandson was fortunate to take a high school Advanced WWII History Class from a teacher who works at the speaker's museum during the summer.
His class was able to do research there & attend several conferences for university professors from all over the world.
They even did podcasts about campaigns called Tigers By The Fire on Apple Podcasts. His was on Operation Torch & he compared it to modern events.
Brilliant. A pleasure to listen to.
Another possibility is the phenomenon that surfaces in the U.S. occasionally that is suicide by police. The soldiers could surrender to the Soviets knowing how much they would suffer for that. They could desert or run and suffer the humiliation at the hands of their countrymen and possibly execution. Or they could fight their best and retain their dignity and die a warrior’s death. The last choice may have seemed the most palatable.
Grow up. Think. If you can.
A better explanation is that they began hearing large numbers of reports about Sovort atrocities of the worst kind. Mass rapes of children and the elderly. Killings of civilians.
Many of the struggles to the end were done so that civilians had time to evacuate places like East Prussia. The soldiers fought for as long as they could. And it was successful in that it did allow civilians to evacuate, thus sparing women from the gang rapes by Red Army soldiers.
Many would rather commit suicide then be executed or gang raped to death, which explains the wave of suicides in Germany right before the surrender. Millions of women and children were gang raped and tortured by the communists.
Germans fought to the end because the're skidmark on humanity's underwear ... Germans expected to be treated as they would treat others if they had won the war..
a good general... who finds ways to make his enemy not to fight to death
What are you saying dipshit. Not everybody can fight to the death. Specially if you have nothing driving you to fight till death.
Another little 'snapshot'.
I returned to Neuwied-am-Rhein in the late Autumn of 2019. I walked the leaf-strewn cobbled paths of that town: familiar places that once I had known well. Not much seemed to me to have changed, though the town appeared somewhat shabbier than my memory allowed me to recall. I plodded up the stone steps of the "Stadtdeich" and along a stretch of the promenade. A sharp wind laced with rain nipped at my face and so I hunkered down on a bench, my hands buried in the pockets of my raincoat and my face buried in its collar. I was in a melancholy mood and I became aware that i was staring at the graphite reflection of the surface of the swollen Rhein.
I spoke to a gentleman who came walking by. He was much older than me. I noted his accent: heavy and closed and I determined that it was not the local 'plattdeutsch' of the region. I enquired further. It turned out that he was from East Prussia, Stettin (Szczecin) - in that the part of Germany that was 'lost' to Poland after the war. He and his family and many others were 'evicted' by the Polish authorities and he moved to Hanover in the Western Allies' sector, but there, the Hanoverians gave them little room and so he moved on. He ended up in Neuwied just as many others were to be dispersed to other small towns throughout Western Germany.
We talked a little more but it was cold that day and the rain was coming now in squalls. We bade each other farewell.
Good men converse civilly whilst reason's awake.
Later that same day I visited the grave of my son whose body, there in that small town in Germany, lies pavilioned and yet whose heart I carry in mine.
All things considered it is hard to feel sorry for Germans
as a writer his point at the start about the 'arc' of a book is a good one. its a very common but rather cliched thing which is something that holds back books to have them all squashed into some neat story arc. what matters is only this: is it interesting.
Thanks for this chat
the germans fought to the end because they were good at fighting to the end
The manstein estate in Pomerania is for real. He fled not long after from the Russian advance and went to live with relatives in an
Apartment in Berlin.
Yeah sure, but he wasnt in active duty planning and commanding troops at the time, since he activly refused Mr.H orders to hold the so called fortified cities. Really bad example.
Cintino is clearly extremely knowledgeable and if there's one thing we should walk away from this discussion it's that Nations need to immerse themselves in the culture (and language) of their adversaries especially "how they fight" and their theory on how to wage a war, which just might make the possibility of a conflict along with the usual death and destruction, perhaps just a bit less likely. Cintino has amazing insight.
One can also see that if Cintino didn't try to keep things light, having a profound understanding of the horrors of war my guess is he's doing everything to keep it together so as to not break down in front of hundreds of thousands of viewers. That takes a lot of strength. A great discussion and it must be a great book.
Fantastic stuff.
I want to know this guy's brand of coffee. This is worthwhile for this alone.
Coffee ? Don't think it is by the look of his smiling face at the end of each sentence ;o)
a better question would be why would they not fight to the end? remember what Churchill said in 1940 expecting an invasion, "We will fight them on the beaches, in the streets and in the hills; we will never surrender." would you expect the Germans do any less? after all they were not French or Italian...
Great to hear this, the book is on my Xmas list.
Great conversation
Starting off by using generals like Rommel (forced by Gestapo to commit suicide in 1944), Guderian (sacked two times after controversies with inter alia Hitler) and von Manstein (sacked in 1944, also partly due to controversies with Hitler) as examples of high officers who kept on fighting for den Führer to the bitter end only to turn on the war effort in their memoirs would seem somewhat odd.
Indeed, i was confused by that.
@@tgaty5378 wait wait wait. What persecution? Some examples? German minority in Poland was small when you compare it to ruthenian, ukrainian and jews. They wanted to live in Germany because when we established our state again, they lost priviliges. For more than 100 years Germans were killing and grab our land. They were simple angry. In their minds Poles were no-human and should be slaves of Germans. Why people always think that anihilation of polish nation was Hitler idea when in reality its 100 older? Search about Hakata organisation in pre ww1 Poznań
Found the sympathizer
Dr. Citino's lecture was EXCELLENT!
I wish everyone was so clear in their explanations - of anything.
Since the internet, I've been in 'hog heaven' - learning soooo much. Almost every question I ever had about anything is answered.
NOTE: I corrected a typo - I had nog heaven instead of hog heaven. But nobody called me on that. Maybe that expression, 'hog heaven', is out of date and no one knows it nowadays. Do you know if people know that expression?
Recently, I've been interested in World War 2. That's pretty strange because I'm an engineer, which is a far cry from knowing history. We engineers learn equations, not words. Every college class begins with equations on a blackboard (do they still use blackboards? I gravitated - er. graduated in 1970). To this day, I have no respect for someone who thinks the answer to a question can be expressed in words, not numbers. Charles Murray, the guy from the Bell Curve book, once said that only engineering college students were 'real' students. Everyone else were just party kids at school. I think that's true. Yet, I know that the real money is not in math. It's in manipulation of people - so sad.
Anyway, this answered my questions on why the war ended with a bang not a whimper. It also helps me to understand why Hitler was so fanatic about fighting when all was obviously lost - he didn't want a Russian sergeant pointing his rifle at his gut and saying, "Finally. You are about to wish you were never born."
I'd like to know if Dr. Citino thinks Hitler committed suicide or if he escaped to Argentina. I personally believe he did NOT kill himself. He was the ONE person in Germany who did not fear reprisals from the army if he 'deserted'. There was not one man who would kill him at that point. Except for a few with personal issues or, of course, his victims. But not even a general who hated him would waste a bullet on him.
Germany is still 'atoning' for the war. They are just now starting to emerge from the 'penalty box' for their barbarism. As a person raised Jewish, I have a hatred for him that cannot be expressed in words. I know that I would have been one of the millions of jews gassed - if I was lucky. I could have been used to compute the 'dive tables' that underwater divers use to time decompressions. That table was determined by having jews die underwater. It is an idea so ghastly that I can't get my head around it. i know that wars allow psychos to do crazy shit with no fear of reprisals, but the scale of the - I have no word for it - the scale of the brutality? barbarism? savagery? is off the charts. Yes, I know even the Aztecs ripped the heart out of a living person to insure good crops. But we're not talking about a 'primitive' culture. Germany was the world leader in technology. They had great artists, composers, etc. They were the height of intellectualism. For them to apply their technology on a massive scale to kill millions is something that tells me humanity is scum. People are scum capable of greatness. We are both. Damn, I never said that before.
Thanks for the lecture. Sorry to drone on, but that's a good thing about the internet. I can just give my incredibly great opinions lol and who gives a shit? I'm just phosphors on a screen. If you read this to the end, please give a thumbs up. I'd like to think that someone actually was interested enough to read this... like the German army that would not stop... to the bitter end lol.
Nate
Interesting points.
Yes so much on the internet, I appreciate the many documentaries on history at our fingertips.
Personally, I don’t know if I’d be bragging though that all my questions can be answered through -THIS medium - to paraphrase.
Lol
The speaker would be easier to listen to if his energy was just turned down a bit.
Yes, we know hog heaven. That being said, due to my obsession with the unfortunately seasonal Christmas drink, "nog heaven" is my new favorite phrase. 😂👌
Very interesting!
I love this mans passion for history
I asked my Opa and his surviving brothers this very question many years ago in my teens. Their answer was very blunt, and it had nothing to do with defending the Rich or their homeland or any of that sort of thing. It was because of Roosevelt's decision to accept nothing else but unconditional surrender. They had already lived through a, to Germany, absolutely horrific scenario after "der Weltkrieg" and in the ensuing decades after the Treaty of Versailles, and that was after an Armistice and negotiations. A major member of the US Cabinet was already publicly stating that Germany will be stripped of any modern equipment or machinery and be forcefully reverted to subsistence agriculture, meaning tens of millions of Germans dying from starvation and disease. America unfortunately (and to Churchill's absolute fury) had backed Germany into a corner where they had to choice but to fight, after knowing the Entente had little mercy after the First World War. I thank God that Roosevelt died when he did and a more reasonable Truman became President, as I shudder to think what would have happened if Roosevelt, his Cabinet Secretaries, and General Eisenhower had planned for the German people. Collective guilt makes every one of us guilty.
Personal insights I greatly value! Thank you for posting!
@Ashton Krywalski not adressing the points made at all. i guess it's easier to just put people in categories than think critically. Churchill, for all his faults, was right on this one.
the blue penguin thank you for your posting your perspective. I believe President Roosevelt’s idea to de industrialize Germany was to make sure that Germany could not wage another war in the future. It would have been politically impossible for the Roosevelt administration, had Roosevelt survived to the end of the war,to allow millions of Germans to starve to death. Many Americans , including my great grandparents, emigrated to the U.S. from Germany and would not have allowed that to happen.
@@waldemarjakowlewitschoswal8235 Was..?
Your Opa and his brothers were criminals.
Very interesting talk. Nicely presented, and concering a subject I feel I haven't heard too much about.
There is always a point of no return in adventurisms which fail. You try to tide over the worst and turn it to a face saving value when still empowered , failing which you have no other choice but to make the process of potential retribution as weak as you feasibly can.
Good video
Im sure the squads roaming around the cities near the end of days in Germany had a hell of a lot to do with it
If you look at the German surrender in ww1 you'll notice that the German army was told and so were the populace that they didn't actual lose that war which set everything up for the second one. If you have an unconditional surrender you don't have the game playing to the extent that occurred post 1918
moridin73 the Germans thought Wilson was their savior. The French and Brita wanted blood! I wholeheartedly agree if you must go to war don't stop killing the enemy till they say enough or as Admiral Halsey said "Till Jap is only spoke in hell!"
@moridin73: I think occupation, de-Nazification (and beyond) and being bombed into the Stone Age with all the attending disease and starvation that comes with total war may have contributed a little bit more to that final outcome. That and the prospect of thermo-nuclear anihilation for thirty years having over the general populations' collective head while the former Allies glare at each other across a fortified border errected in the middle of your country. Might have helped a little as well. Not very likely to contrive a "Dolch Stoß" Legende out of that outcome. Unconditional surrender has little or nothing to do with any of those after affects. A distinct lack of virile males due to attrition might help too, eh. Look at any European nation - other than Russia - today and you'll see similar persistent side-effects. Not much in the way of Manhood to go around after a war like that.
@Analyzing Male Slavery More nazi apologetics. Germany had to be decisively crushed otherwise we'd just get another stab in the back myth. Nor would a negotiated peace let us prosecute the nazis for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
@varro We Bullshit.
@@YHWHisSovereign Well because France and GB were meant to defend Poland from being partitioned again. Marching into Poland caused GB and France to declare war - albeit it started out as a “phoney war” (as the Americans called it), “Sitzkrieg” (sitting [-down] war by the Germans) or _“Drôle de guerre”_ (a strange war by the French) because it wasn't followed up by much for some time there after.
Of course he wanted war. Poland once upon a time crusaded with support of the Teutonic Order of Knights against the Baltic pagan pruzzen, the relation between the Polish royalty and the grand Masters of the Teutonic Order was often intertwined, it wasn't until the Reformation that began unraveling the two. Regardless nothing beyond the Margraviate of Brandenburg was part of the Holy Roman Empire (of the German Nation _since 1512)_ specifically not Prussia. Much like the Austrian was but the Hungarian part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire was not.
Hitler had a shallow understanding on the usurping ambitions of the Hohenzollern Pruss, not to be Kaiser/Emperor by the German Prince-electors but Of the.
Hitler was a gullible fanatic to something he had no grasp on and knew nothing about a disloyal dodger of military service but wartime volunteer in a foreign country. An illegal immigrant who's application for citizenship failed so many German States that it is laughable that no one repatriated him at gunpoint.
Another reason that people keep going on is that they are already so invested that they hate losing what they think they've built up.
very good talk
To answer the question of this post in metaphor: the German army bought a ticket, they boarded the titanic, they embraced the notion that she couldn't be sunk, they cheered when the captain said," full steam ahead", they laughed when the message of ice field ahead came, when the ship hit the iceberg they scoffed that it meant anything, as the ship started to list and the lifeboats deployed the bat is put on dressed so the could get on a life boat and finally the German army, like the employees of the white star line, had no choice but to go down with the ship. An aside, Hitler did not die with gun in hand to defend berlin, he put it to his head like a coward
@Indigenous Advocate. hitler was the biggest coward in history. He dragged his nation into a war, threw old men and children into battle and then ran out on his people by committing suicide or running away to Argentina.
exactly and took German children with him for no reason
@@bw6524 but still today ignorant punks emulate him. sad
Pride, training, loyalty, hope...like most professional armies.
Larp
Any halfway decent strategist could’ve told the Nazis it was over in like late 1942.
@macree01 Maybe. They weren't reasonable. Not in that bubble. Too much propaganda and nationalism. No one would listen anyway. Defeat would be death. They got conquered in the end, and that was the only solution. Once wars start, it's irrational.
fascinating discussion....such is the subject of WWII
The good Dr. Citino is undefeated to any and all microphones.😏
Good that he points out how the foot soldiers were appalled at the assassination attempt because the officers knew the reality and must have felt compelled to fight lest they get lynched for that reason too. However, giving the retreating civilians a shot at getting west was another factor not mentioned. Also the Kriegsmarine sp? (navy) was not entirely out and their co-operation with army was important. They managed to evacuate two million on the Baltic.
While I was stationed in Germany, Bavaria, 1974-77, I made friends with many Germans who had survived the war, many of whom were veterans. Many times, after I knew one of these people for awhile, they would whisper to me- "You know, Hitler was right!", meaning his opposition to Stalin, but sometimes I think more.
Fascinating!
very relevant today
We need to talk thru any thought asking for “ Unconditional Surender “ again. Would the War turn out different if that demand was not made ?
No. The only thing 'unconditional surrender' demands ultimately affected were the people at the top. As Ian Kershaw revealed even by January 1945 people were willing, most people that is, to surrender unconditionally to the Soviets. It was better than fighting a war that could not be won. It only affected those at the top, those who knew they had committed monstrous, unpardonable crimes, who had burned their bridges and decided to drag everyone with them into the inferno. It is their fault alone and nothing to do with unconditional surrender.
After what they have done in the camps, in Russia, Poland , they could not give up .
Unconditional surrender was unprecedented at the time. Without the knowing what the conditions would be, whose to say it wouldn't have led to genocide and complete destruction?
Stalin wanted Germany broken up into many states, and he wanted a complete de-industrialization. The Morgenthau plan similarly. This would have led to mass famine and the potential destruction of the entire German people.
Also, it should be said that Germans were hearing stories of the mass atrocities committed by the Red Army(having your wife and children gang-raped to death, doesn't sound like a good deal, and is something worth dying to prevent)-- the Soviets never signed the Geneva convention protocols btw. Under such conditions, it made sense to fight for as long as possible just to evacuate civilians and hope for a conditional surrender.
On the 50th Anniversary of D-Day, I met a Frenchman from Alsace that had been drafted into the German Army who escaped through the little bridge at Trun, near Argentan. He was in teers recalling the event. He says after the war he was acused of being a traitor to France.
Forcefully drafted, and then deserted? DId he mention more, or ever write any?
That is believable. I am just saying this because while it is a different country and system, but as you know USSR blacklisted and called former POWs traitors, and they actually killed many of the higher ups who were in Berlin to avoid their talking about what they saw or to avoid their becoming promoted
KoP, it was standard in those areas, that if u refused the draft, if u were lucky, u were just executed as a traitor. More likely, as a means of pressure, ur family would additionally pay for ur refusal as fx. an Alsace Frenchman to serve in the German Army and either be sent to a camp or also executed. I have read about many such instances, and that these poor men, were they lucky enough to survive the war, were treated as traitors, when they were just trying to protect their families, is a disgrace. And it wasnt just the French, Ive read of a few cases of Americans born in the US to German immigrants, who were unlucky enough to be visiting family in Germany, when the war broke out, and these young men, US citizens, were faced with the same choice, since the Nazis considered them German, coz their parents were born in Germany. And the US also treated these men as traitors. There were a lot of heroic acts during and after the war, but there were also absolutely abominable acts, human tragedies, and this was 1 of them.
If he was a Alsatian (Elsässer), he was no French. The Elsaß was annexed 1684 by France, when Germany was in war with the Ottomans and Vienna was besieged. Then again France annexed it 1918
Freigeist2008 that's BS. being myself of alsatian origin I can tell you that alsacians identify with France and not Germany. before Louis the 14 it was never more German than French anyway. it's been disputed since Charlemagne's death to be precise. And even at the time of Gaul it was a toss up.
but after the 17th century, it was French for 200 years, continuously, and briefly german for 40 years. do the maths...
The question of the headline is easy enough to answer. It is because the truth was harder to face than death.
good conversation
I'm going to steal the phrase "The Soviet Union lost the Cold War with their behavior on the last months of the war"
@@javdetsh- Most people alive now only know the Second World War happened by the testimony of others. Those who affect skepticism about history could only attain consistency by admitting - by insisting on - abject ignorance.
Digital Nomad I know what an idiot... you weren’t there so you don’t know it happened such a dumb argument by that logic I wasn’t alive during WW2 so I can’t know it happened
You can steal it all you want, that doesn't mean I makes sense because you did that.
easy for a yank to say, his country was not invaded in operation barbaROSA.
So true. My aunt told me Christmas About the soviet conquer of Erfurt (Thüringen) 1945. She was 6 and saw murder, rape and tortures of old men. She cried this evening.
One of my uncles fought on the Western front for the Germans. In Holland in early 1945 he was company sergeant. He told me that everyone knew the war was lost, but surrendering was difficult owing to some more fanatical soldiers. One day being not too far from the front line he found his squad had decamped while he was asleep. He jumped on a bicycle and rode after them. After a couple of minutes he came to his senses and turned the bicycle around... was taken prisoner and survived the war.
His family lived in Pomerania. In February 1945 the front line passed through. It was made clear by the Red Army that any town that resisted would be 'punished', but any town that didn't would not be. That town had two idiotic Nazi fanatics (one a teacher) who found an artillery piece with two shells and popped them off in the general direction of the Russians. Not the right decision - cost my grandfather his life.
The Red Army violently punished defeated Germans regardless if they surrendered or not...mostly thanks to their ruthless rear echelon troops that occupied Germany.
@@CALISUPERSPORT Soldiers were certainly in danger, as were those who had worked in the occupying administration, but others very much less so.
You just wrote rubbish
@@jeremywilliams5107 Tell that to about 2 million German women who were raped by the Soviets.
This guy is blowing my historical mind.
Thanks
I enjoy Dr Citino for some reason. It's a heavy subject but he makes it interesting because you can feel he enjoys speaking about the subject.
Great historian, even better speaker
@@lovablesnowman also a very nice guy actually.
Yes, he speaks as an American coming from that cultural background. It would round up the picture if a European and a German commented as well, coming from a related cultural background and mentality.
German mentality which stresses obedience, loyalty, toughness, and submission to authority as well as realisation that committed atrocities would not go unpunished, methinks
Toughness - rather cruelty - I love my German protestant heritage but despise the miserable tendency to collective cruelty and the submission to criminal "authority" - es gibt keinen Führer jenseits von Gott 🤗
Much, much more the later than the former… And by atrocities we are really talking about the killing of Soviets en masse and not the death camps, which were much more less known to the average soldier.
The United States was the arsenal of the Allies during WW-II. Once the United States entered the war, the War Production Board initially attempted to predict equipment needs, losses, &c. When initial reports of shortages came back, the War Production simply multiplied the numbers produced by their models by 10 and were effetely requesting enough to fight ten wars. (Source - A mathematician who worked for the War Production board and was in 1968 and employee of Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.) Amon other things, the United States was manufacturing components for Soviet weapon systems. These could be shipped across the Pacific on Soviet freighters for the duration of the war with Germany. By comparison, German war production peaked in the Autumn of 1944, and availability of consumer goods in increased in Japan in 1942.
Interesting stuff. The enthusiasm for it all reminds me of Mark from Peep Show.
They had a pretty good idea of how pissed off the soldiers of the Red Army were.
Though most atrocities forced on Germans after the war are wrote off as Soviet, it wasn't the Soviets that completely leveled Dresden with return flights specifically to firebomb first responders, was it? It wasn't the Soviets that continually rejected all peace offers from Germany after Dunkirk and the British army defeat, was it? Churchill was controlled by Jewish forces that had wanted to see Germany completely defeated and ruined, same as the Soviets were, and so Germans fought knowing what was in store for them when they lost.
@DevilTrigger Maybe after WW2, after Stalin started reading the Masonic writings confiscated from the Germans and realized he was being played like a pawn and started putting foot to Jewish ass. Right around the same time the west switched their stance on Russia and began demonizing them as well, hmmmm. But before that, hell, Communists weren't even good Communists to their own people. There is a myriad of writings throughout the 1930s by Jewish authors calling for German genocide, and both sides were controlled by these same forces.
@DevilTrigger Yeah, I think you may be giving a bit too much credit to the Jews there, buddy. SO what exactly were they besides just the catalysts of the Communist movement (and financiers). They weren't the workers. Nor the peasants. Sure, mostly intellectuals. But isn't it strange that when you say that eventually most proponents of Communism see the horrors of Socialism and start criticising it, you know damn well still, you do not mean any of the Jews. Not even the intellectual ones who know better. Why? Because they don't give a damn about the workers, or anybody in the equation other than themselves and are only interested in Socialism as a means to destroy society and castigate it under their rule. Period. This is proven to be true when, upon seeing Communism fail, all they did was kick the workers to the curb and replace them with various identity groups to further the same goals under Cultural Marxism, as they are currently doing in Western Civilization. Just proves that the Conspiracies are indeed real and they have been at work for a long time. I think more likely, after WW2, Stalin started reviewing the treasure trove of Masonic confiscated writings that the Nazis had, and got the same whiff of reality that Hitler knew all along.
@Rosco P. Coltrane Wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. The Germans were actually much worse than the Soviets.
"Rape, while officially forbidden, was allowed in practice by the German military in eastern and southeastern Europe, while northern and western countries were relatively spared."
"Other sources estimate that rapes of Soviet women by the Wehrmacht range up to 10,000,000 incidents, with between 750,000 and 1,000,000 children being born as a result."
"German soldiers used to brand the bodies of captured partisan women - and other women as well - with the words "Whore for Hitler's troops" and rape them.[94] Following their capture some German soldiers vividly bragged about committing rape and rape-homicide.[95] Susan Brownmiller argues that rape played a pivotal role in the Nazis' aim to conquer and destroy people they considered inferior, such as Jews, Russians, and Poles.[96] An extensive list of rapes committed by German soldiers was compiled in the so called "Molotov Note" in 1942. Brownmiller points out that Nazis used rape as a weapon of terror.[97]"
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht
See for yourself in the sex crimes section.
@Rosco P. Coltrane You said that Germans didn't rape. I sent you evidence that they did. I never said Soviets didn't rape, but you saying Germans never raped is false. Are you going to ignore the evidence I gave about that?
Also you didn't tag me properly.
Citino is a cool dude.
You sold me. I'm going to buy your book right away. I don't know if you end up mentioning it. I'm still watching. But the Wwii museum is in New Orleans.
Someone made a great comment about why Germany started WWII, " Let's finish what we started in WWI and get completely destroyed this time".