What if Gandalf Claimed the One Ring? Or if Aragorn? Or if Galadriel? | Middle-earth Lore Video
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- čas přidán 5. 05. 2022
- The dark side of Gandalf? The corruption of Frodo? The tyranny of Elrond? The question of Tom Bombadil? Today we'll look at how things might have gone if one of our heroes claimed the One Ring for their own.
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I still would have loved a flex from Tolkien showing Sam taking the ring and dominating Middle Earth as the Dread Gardener. "BRING ME TATERS AND DESPAIR."
Dread Gardener. Love it.
Mushrooms and taters precious.
Sam would most likely and totally against his wishes bring on an environmental disaster, planting a lot of invasive species that would totally ruin the balanse of plants and in the end, the entire ecosystem of middle earth!
I think if Sam wore the ring he would just use it to get in mr. Frodo's pants...
@@concernedcitizen4933 Ahahaha 😅 wtf man
Why? That's stupid.
Tolkien's comment on Gandalf had he taken the ring reminds me of his friend CS Lewis' writings:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
Easy for a wealthy white upper-class man who never suffered under a robber baron to say. Lewis was also a fundamentalist, so his chosen worldview was dominated by an authoritarian god.
Dang
The word smithing is great but I don’t agree with the sentiment. Cruel oppressors also have the permission of their own conscience as well. Or… no conscience at all. At least, those who oppress “for your own good” have an interest in justice and the welfare of the people.
This sort of reminds me of Professor Umbridge from Harry Potter.
I thought you were talking about liberals and Democrats
Galadriel waiting for thousands of years, and through 3 ages of Arda, for the test of her ambition to finally come, which she of course passed, is one of the deepest cuts of Tolkien's lore. Her whole reason for joining the exodus from Valinor was to establish a great empire in Middle Earth, and it took all 3 ages of her life to overcome that ambition. Test was unexpected, and came from the most humble of creatures, but she passed the test, and was welcomed back into the West.
Galadriel would have been welcomed back into the West even before refusing the Ring. Lots of Noldor had already returned by that time.
@@mitchellglaser Lol Galadriel isn't "lots of Noldor" though. She wasn't even under the doom of Mandos as she fought for the Teleri, not the Noldor, during the kinslaying.
So she had her own reasons that she went, and her own reasons to return. The doom of the Noldor didn't apply to her.
@@lukecash3500 ..damn..you guys are breaking it down…💪🏼
@@mitchellglaser Galadriel was barred from Valinor upon the exhile of the Noldor, along with the other leaders. There are several slightly different interpretations of how and when that ban was lifted. Tolkien himself has stated multiple times that she was not welcome until a pardon from the Valar was given, she would indeed have been free to sail West back to Valinor if she had taken their pardon but she refused it and stayed in Middle Earth at the end of the First Age. As an example of this as Tolkien himself wrote it in a letters(297 & 320) about it:
"The Exiles were allowed to return - save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of The Lord of the Rings only Galadriel remained. At the time of her Lament in Lórien she believed this to be perennial, as long as the Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressëa, the solitary isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed. Her prayer was granted - but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her." (297)
"At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself." (320)
"After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so."- (The road Goes Ever On And On Vol.I)
Galadriel was seemed to be prideful and sorrowful on the topic of needing being pardoned in order to be in her homeland or with her family, and Tolkien seems to have implied this with her dialogue in the Unfinished Tales(The Elessar), she says this to Celebrimbor in the Second Age after her refusal of the pardon:
"What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier."
She may have indeed been free of the Doom of Mandos, free to stay in the Undying Lands during the Flight of the Noldor, and she may have been summoned back after the War of Wrath, but Galadriel chose to go east, and chose then again to remain east, until she fulfilled a much full destiny and journeyed home to Aman.
That's rather poetic, especially the way you've written it here.
It is interesting that most of the important elves in the third age are humble kind. Elrond refuse to call himself king. Galadriel is just the lady of Lothlorien. And Cirdan remain his awesome humble self. Though I do wonder what would happen if Thanduil come across the ring.
Gandalf was dreadfully afraid of the power that the Ring would gain over him if he took possession of it.
Good point Sauron!
i liked the delivery of the lines in the movie: he made gandalf almost seem ashamed of his own capacity for corruption. "i would try to use it for good!" he pleads.
This demonstrated yet another way JK Rowling was inspired by Tolkien. Dumbledore feels similarly about his relationship to power. He is the most powerful wizard alive yet he refuses to become the Minister of Magic and remains a humble school headmaster. But she goes further, because unlike Gandalf’s mere speculation about what he could become, Dumbledore has real demons from his past that haunt him. He remembers the mistakes of his youth when he embraced that power arrogantly and the harm it had done to his family. Rowling doesn’t always improve on Tolkien’s ideas, usually hers are a bit more derivative, but in this case her version is more believable. Gandalf merely fears what _might_ happen. Dumbledore regrets what actually _did_, so he had a more legitimate reason to feel that way, in my opinion.
Also it’s for that reason that they both trust Frodo and Harry so much, because they don’t and never have sought power, resulting in them being much more worthy to receive it. But Harry never succumbed to it, unlike Frodo.
@@MerkhVision to be fair Harry never had anything like the testing Frodo did.
@@amh9494 Harry had to walk into his own execution willingly and was groomed for it his whole short life by making sure his life was terrible.
Frodo was almost 40 in the LotR (I think) and had an extremely comfortable life raised by a comparatively awesome person.
This felt more like: "The One Ring: How Does it Work? Part II". Loved it!
The One Ring is an interesting phenomenon, in that it has seemingly a will of its own, independent of Sauron. It can't be truly alive or conscious, as only Eru can create life, but as a seemingly inexhaustible source of living deception and corruption born out of Sauron's own spirit, I doubt even the Silmarils had as much power as the One Ring.
Excellent comment.
Sauron feared Aragorn showing as King Ringbearer only in the sense that it was his worst possible *expected* case. It was a development he could understand and expect, as it was a move he would make. It would mean a fight, and a fight he would rather avoid, but still a fight he would eventually win, as it also meant the Ring would have been found, and its location known, its return inevitable.
I do like exploring “What if” scenarios. I find them interesting. Great video as always.
Dave you should do a what if video if numenor decided to declare war on Middle Earth like we discussed 😊👍
Completely agree!
I’d never heard Tolkien’s comparison between the Allied armies committing atrocities in the name of fighting Hitler and people in his universe trying to use the ring for good. To think he fought in WWI, lived through Nazi bombings of his home country and STILL had the fortitude to reject the notion that “The ends justify the means.”
As always, I’m in awe of him.
It might help if you are not Eurpean. The same allied powers are imperialist powers pillaging lives and wealth from their colonies abroad. Had there not been WW 1& 2m Britain, France and Germany would have been engaged in brutal independence wars of their colonies. Its only because they bankrupted themselves from wars and the Americans wanting access to their colonies markets did they relent to "peacfully" grant independence to their colonies
it really shouldn't take a genius to figure out that you'll never stop sauron by slaughtering his orcs, he's gonna make more of them and they're gonna be mightily pissed because you've butchered their brothers.
@@windhelmguard5295 you are completely missing the point.
I don't think it was fortitude, but a clarity of sight to realize that using the same methods of "overcoming evil", as evil was using for its own ends, only ever ends up in becoming a new, replacement evil. The ones "overcoming evil" have to be willing to throw their own Ring into the fire, but as in Tolkien's universe, would any be able to do it?
Even Hitler didn't hold that notion entirely, having been the victim of a gas attack he never used it, not on the battlefield or in bombing raids, this despite having huge amounts in stockpiles. Obviously we know where it was used but I do think it says a lot that even when the writing was on the wall and the red army was pushing into Germany he didn't use it.
I love the fact that in the same way that trying to use the ring against Sauron makes you do his work for him, Sauron et al trying to use things in existence against Iluvatar just does Iluvatar’s work for him. There’s levels to this game lol
To me, Sauron was counting on all the what ifs.....He counted upon people wanting to wield the ring and knew that would be their undoing. The ring was HIS and would answer only to him, though it would serve another. And should they wish to confront him wielding it, it would betray them and he'd get it back. The one thing he didn't account for was someone determined to destroy it. And that was his undoing.
Yea Saurons biggest thing was he couldn't even conceive someone destroying the ring and not using its power
@@Mrcaptainmorgan93 Yes my friend. That is EXACTLY what Sauron could never forsee, understand or expect. For he was utterly evil....the ultimate sociopath. The reason he waited so long to attack ,in part was the fact that he was expecting an enemy of his wielding it.
He didn't believe that anyone could resist the temptation, that anyone was incorruptible. And he was right, with the possible exception of Sam (and Tom), no one was ever able to resist the Ring's power for long. But it was that very same Evil, that very greed thay was his undoing in the end; if it weren't for Golem's greed, if he wasn't so thuroughly corrupted and obsessed, Sauron would have won. That or if the Ring was better at more focused manipulation rather than just "be evil," it could have guided Golem back to its master centuries before the start of the Fellowship and then his victory would have been pretty much assured.
This is a very intriguing topic, and lots of fun.
You mention that Tom Bombadil could not be corrupted because he had no deep desires for good or ill for the ring to corrupt. I'm not sure I agree.
Tom Bombadil did have a deep desire--the pleasure and comfort of Goldberry. If the barrow weights had destroyed the hobbits, perhaps Tom would have recovered the ring and carelessly tossed it in his sock drawer or other random place. He may have lost interest and left it unused for a time.
But eventually, a rough winter might have left Goldberry without her flowers, or she might suffer some other seemingly trivial discomfort. Then, after randomly and accidentally coming across the ring where last he had left it, he might use it to enhance Goldberry's minor comforts.
These enhancements might slowly grow over time so that Goldberry may have larger and more lilly ponds. Tom would bend Old Man Willow's powers to his will, creating new and beautiful forrest glades in which Goldberry would frolic. The Old Forrest then slowly would become a beautiful yet festering canker. It would creep outwards over the ages, swallowing the surrounding lands and peoples. First the Brandybucks, then those in the rest of the Shire and Bree-land would become footman and servants for Goldberry's comfort and pleasure.
Slowly but inexorably, Tom Bombadil would wield the ring, turning all of Middle Earth into one giant playground for Goldberry.
Yeah, that's a great point!
Why would he need a ring? He's a got a song for everything.
I'm consistently blown away by your videos. You weave a narrative of your own within the narrative of Tolkien's world in a very beautiful way.
Seems like a stretch that Aule would be corrupted. Sauron poured his soul into the ring to make it that powerful but Aule should be able to create another artifact that was just as powerful if he wanted. His understanding of crafting should also be such that he could hold the ring, analyze it, and just say oh this is such and such class of enchantment ring. I'll keep this ring for reference in my chest where I have my other similar class rings that I crafted a while back. The One Ring is powerful but ultimately it is still an artifact craftable at Maiar level. Pretty sure Aule is sufficiently better than at Sauron was at crafting and could counter any of its effects.
This is my take as well, but I think there are a couple of Valar who would be even less susceptible to the corrupting influence of the Ring. The first is Manwe, who the Silmarillion explicitly says is so non-evil that he can't even really comprehend it; I don't think the Ring could have found a handle there to work on. The other is Mandos. Giving the Ring to Mandos would have bene like giving it to Bombadil writ large; it's not that I believe Mandos could master it, but as the Doomsman of the Valar he would know that even trying would be a really bad idea, and I severely doubt there is any place in Arda more secure than the Halls of Mandos.
@@ptorq Tulkas or Oromë or even Ulmo however I could see having more temptation.
Have to agree, even by the Channel's standard. If Saruman fundamentally could not master the Ring because a Ring of Power had to me made with Sauron's Ringlore, then it requires the question 'where did Sauron get his Ringlore?'. And for Sauron to have surpassed Aule in Craftsmanship (which is what the Ring being able to corrupt Aule to Sauron's viewpoint/methodology requires) requires a Maiar to overpower a Valar, which doesn't really seem to gel with Tolkein's world, where higher powers cannot really be contested by the lesser. Having Sauron's spirit (via the Ring) able to corrupt Aule feels like claiming Boromir could take Durin's Bane in a fight, because Boromir was amongst the greatest warriors of men.
Your closing comments reminded me of Frodo. He was kind to gollum, turned away from bearing weapons, promoted forgiveness rather than revenge during the scouring of the shire. He is one of the most amazing and purely good characters that’s ever been written. Thank you for this video, you made me appreciate Frodo even more
Very insightful video, RD. It's interesting to hear you describe Tolkien's opinions of his own work vis a vis the Second World War. Tolkien, though he strove to remain in the light, had witnessed true horror and darkness, and so was able to recognize it afterward whenever it showed itself. We are still feeling the effects of the Great Wars, just as the Free Peoples of Middle Earth still felt the effects of Sauron's initial deceptions thousands of years later. Truly profound.
I think the most telling thing I've ever heard about the One Ring is when you said that 'No-one, not even Sauron, could resist or bring themselves to do it harm'. Sauron put much of his own native power into the Ring when he forged it, and it's 'operating system' is hardwired into it. It can be used or it can (with immense effort) be destroyed - but it can never be changed or have it's effects on it's wearer mitigated. And that's why (after deciding to take it from Saurons body in the first place!) Isldur Did Nothing Wrong. Because nobody, not Gandalf or Glorfindel or even Galadriel, could resist it's effects for ever.
But just possibly, Aule, being of a higher order in the same branch of the Ainur as Sauron, might have been able to destroy the Ring. And if not Aule, you have to wonder of Morgoth could have.
Well Isildur did make a mistake, but due to the ring's corrupting influence perhaps boosting his pride and confidence in that moment (although he later tried to make up for it, before the ring abandoned him)
Book Isildur (from Unfinished Tales) actually was planning to give up the Ring - he kept it for several years, and ultimately realized that he couldn't wield it and that it had power over him. When he was killed he was actually traveling to give the Ring to Elrond, thinking that Elrond would have been able to deal with it. Who knows if he'd actually be able to give the Ring up, or what would have happened to Elrond had he gotten possession of it...
I don't normally find the "what if" scenarios that compelling, but this video was different. As always, thanks for all of the time and effort you put into this channel. It is very much appreciated!
love the way you foreshadowed Gandalf's segment at the end of elrond and galadriels. i enjoyed the way you presented it. thank you.
This did get a lot more real in the end than I expected-but in a very applicable appreciated way.
I also appreciate the level of thought and consideration you’ve put into each scenario and hope it would affect the development of each character.
Another great video, Dave of Many Colors!
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
@@tolkienuntangled It would also be interesting to follow the possible chain of events if Deagol had never found the ring, Sméagol had never become Gollum, and Saruman had found what he was searching for in the Anduin.
I really appreciate your videos. I love your perspective and I’m often surprised at how much thought you can inspire in me with this old well explored tale.
This video went so much deeper than I expected. Love it.
I was incredibly tired and your voice managed to help put me to sleep. Thank you and keep up the good work!
I genuinely love your videos, they are so interesting and so deep, always leaving thinking about all of these complicated questions. it is such a good meal for mind. thank you very much!
26:42 Why do I like that creepy 😈artwork so much?
Happy Friday, Rainbow Dave. These videos are immensely satisfying. Keep it up, thanks for all the hard work
Very good job breaking this all down. i can't count the times I've had people, who've only seen the movies, but knowing I've been a Tolkien fan since junior high ( a LONG time ago), ask me "why didn't Elrond just kill Isildur and end it? If the Ring was so powerful how could it be cut from Sauron's finger? Why didn't they just use it against him?" I could only shrug, when I was younger....and as I grew older and immersed myself further into the lore I could confidently reply..."I can tell you, but it's going to take some time. Are you ready for a long and detailed explanation?" lol. Thank you so much for these videos...so well crafted, presented, and loaded with lore! Great job!
When Sam used the Ring to hide, was that not potentially one time the Ring was used for good, or at least not evil?
The adage "be careful what you ask for" seems appropriate. I love Friday mornings! Thank you for sharing and have an amazing weekend.
Just found you and I’m loving all the videos. Amazing research and presentation man. Thanks so much!
The last 5 or so minutes of this video where you showed some of the real life events that inspired Tolkien were amazing. I really think you could do some great dedicated videos on these types of topics. Anyways- your videos are the best already! Keep it up!
Thanks!
That was fantastic Dave! Gandalf - "Ima gonna keep it" LMAO...
Bravo sir! Excellent commentary, specially at the end. I couldn’t agree more with the points you made using Tolkien’s letter.
You have quickly rocketed right to my favorite Tolkien channel by far. More than any other Tolkien channel I've found, you have such a comprehensive and holistic (and correct) understand of what Tolkien and his Legendarium really means and is all about.
Thank you very much!
I normally don't like "What if" LOTR videos but you have a talent to make the unlikable likable Thank You! btw please as soon as you can continue with FA timeline!
Thanx Rainbow Dave!! I'm taking this to work ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
Incredible restoration. I am subscribing for sure.
Enjoyed that very much, especially at the very end with those thought provoking comments.
Have seen this iteration, but your take is well worth it! Rainbow of potential outcomes lol, well done matey.
Oh, I have never seen it so thoroughly explored. you did your homework. I will endeavor to do my own, read The Silmarillion finally.
So good, loved these theories. Nice one Rainbow Dave
Thank you kindly!
I am such a history nerd so I'm glad that you added the little bit at the end
Great video Rainbow Dave! I’ve found your strict adherence to Tolkiens source material to be refreshing and unique among your fellows especially regarding the “what if?” question.
Should check out the red book. Don't think anyone sticks to the source like he does
Sorry I’m late! Thank you for this GREAT video RD. Excellent topic.
Just a wonderful video. Well done sir!
I really don't think the ring would affect Aulë. As in, he's so much powerful than his apprentice in every way that his apprentice's creations to modify his apprentice's powers would barely affect his at all.
Like if Sauron is 1000, and the ring x10s him to 10,000, I'd say Aulë *starts* at 1,000,000, and 1,010,000 isn't that big of a difference.
No way someone weaker than him can make something stronger than what he can make.
Nice work dude thanks
13:50 mark. Yes, I'm sure that Tolkien meant that Sauron's fear was that Frodo would destroy the ring. Not that he feared that Frodo could have used the ring to kill Sauron. Any attempt at Frodo becoming the new tyrant using the ring's power would have been futile, and Sauron knew it and that wouldn't have made him fear. Sauron realized the true plan of the Fellowship at that point, the instant that Frodo put on the Ring. And why wouldn't he? There was no other reason for Frodo and the Ring to be at the only place on the planet that could have destroyed the Ring.
20:00
Your reading of this passage is exactly as I imagine it. The gradually building pacing and intensity is much better than the flip-of-a-switch change that comes over Galadriel in the film version. (And I think the visual effects could still have been outstanding, or even better, done in the same gradual way).
Also, well done on always correctly using the word "quotation" instead of "quote"! ("Quote" is a verb, and "quotation" is the noun, everybody!)
I personally find this the most intriguing part of Letter 246:
"In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond."
Why would Elrond be especially capable, among the guardians of the Three (which, as Gandalf is already addressed, must refer to Cirdan and Gil-galad (as previous guardians) and Galadriel), of wielding the One Ring and supplanting Sauron?
(note that I tend to take the phrase in this passage as referring more broadly to those mighty among the Eldar who would have been more capable of fully utilizing the Three (Glorfindel, Celeborn perhaps Thranduil, Gildor et.al.).
His Maiarin heritage perhaps?
If the other guardians of the Three were capable of wielding the Ring, then Cirdan should have been included in this video. Of course, the end result would have been the same.
Mmm, who DID replace the chain around Frodo’s neck?
Gandalf had already touched it beforehand and not claimed it; but regardless, Elrond was the main caretaker, anyway, so I’m sure he did touch it!
I love that Galadriel says she wouldn’t be dark, but she WOULD be terrible. Hahahaha.
Really?? When was Elrond the caretaker of the ring?
GUYLADRIEL: YOU HAVE NOT SEEN WHAT I HAVE SEEN!
Great video! Solid research and very insigtful reflections! I tend to agree with you on just every character description. Where I am somewhat hesitant is the, to my mind, seeming contradiction between Eru Illuvatar having a set plan that WILL come to pass, and any real risk that Sauron could win through the One Ring's corruption. Eru would have to be playing the long game if there is a supposed "happy end" in an alternative story where Sauron either gets his ring back right away or another powerful entity becomes its corrupted master. What are your thoughts on that?
Another thing that I'm not sure I've really considered before is this: Could Sauron - his very spirit - be destroyed or utterly banished into the darkness without destroying the ring? In the video you pose the question whether Sauron could be destroyed by a person of equal or greater power, using the ring as a weapon. It seems like Sauron fears this possibility, not just that it could set his plans back for a few centuries or even millennia, but that it could actually annihilate him. To me it sounds impossible on a very fundamental level; it would be against the nature of the Ring, which is of course an extension of Sauron himself. A more plausible, and also interesting, question might be: If Sauron was to be destroyed or utterly banished by a greater power, could that in fact leave the Ring powerless? I will leave you with that. Have a great day!
Great video. I especially loved the last part with Tolkien's comparison to WW2.
Interesting exploration! I love it. As you said, I think Aulë would be corrupt if he was to use the ring, even seemingly for good. But I also think Aulë might be able to will the ring destruction... and i'm assuming he has in his "forge" something equivalently hot to dragon breath and mount doom volcano to destroy the ring easily.
I gotta say I love your videos! As a long time fan myself I appreciate so much the care and respect you give these legendariy tales! Thanks for the awesome content.
Thanks! I'm really glad you enjoy the videos.
I think there's a possible 'third doom' when it comes to Aulë. Being made by a lesser Power than himself, the One Ring could neither turn him to Sauron's service nor corrupt him directly into a new Dark Lord by any 'magical' power it possesses... but as a craftsman, he would have a certain morbid appreciation for it. Observing and utilizing its power directly as a matter of curiosity might ultimately cause Aulë, fully by his own volition, to abandon his faith in Eru's plan and go down a questionable path of forging his own more powerful Ring, to the end of countering Morgoth's forced decay of the world by craft and technology.
Since Aulë learned long ago that he can't actually replicate the Flame Imperishable, he'd probably make like Morgoth and try manipulating it instead. Rather than creating twisted and low forms such as Orcs and Uruk-Hai, though, he'd try to forge Humans and Elves into more beautiful and more powerful beings, perhaps analogous to magical cyborgs, enhanced by his craft and Ring(s) in both physical and mental capacity. He might set up the first of his new upgraded people as rulers and guides and teachers and defenders of the once-Free Peoples, and usher in a very different Fourth Age of Middle-Earth. Realistically this could go well or badly, but because this is supposedly still Tolkien, and reckless and overbearing usage and implementation of technology is generally an explicitly bad thing in his universe... well... whatever comes next for Arda would have to suck.
Presumably by this path, everyone would slowly lose their humanity and free will, and... basically turn out as semi fleshy robots. Perfect and unnaturally powerful, but that spark that is uniquely the manifestation of the Flame Imperishable would slowly dwindle and fade away, save in those few places where Aulë's new world order was rejected and evaded by crafty mortals, and Middle-Earth would become a land of unsettlingly soulless, overly perfect, half-living creatures.
...And if Aulë continues wielding Sauron's Ring in addition to his own Ring and innate power, it'd just subtly continue making things a bit worse to top it all off. Again it couldn't control or corrupt Aulë himself by any supernatural power, but it could certainly cast a subtle tinge of malaise-inducing foulness unto all of his works that in part depended on the extra bit of strength and command it provided. Realizing this, he might very well one day take a stroll over to the Cracks of Doom, toss the thing in, and replace whatever breaks down without its help. (Unless he's diminished himself below Sauron's own level by overexertion, he should be perfectly able to ignore the Ring's influence and just do that kind of thing.) But the overall outcome for the world at large would still be the same, because the greatest damage would've been done by Aulë's tampering and not Sauron's Ring by that point in time.
As for the other Valar, I think the results with Yavanna or Vána would be similar, but in the opposite direction - inspiring them to create their own Ring or equivalent in order to reverse the ill effects of technology and advancement and make the world young and grand and green again. Nienna and Estë could, upon contact with the One, POSSIBLY intimately sense all the hurt that the Ring itself has inflicted and be moved to return for a time to Middle-Earth in order to try and heal it. Any of the others, I think, would be unimpressed by the trinket. Manwë and Mandos might want it kept out of the reach of anyone else, Irmo would recognize it as a corruption of his own domain and reject it outright, and at best Tulkas or Oromë might decide to smash it to bits and throw it out into space where nobody will find the damn thing again. And as usual, Ulmo would probably just avoid any involvement. But, notably, in a worst case, Aulë, Yavanna, Vána, Nienna, and Estë together are a large enough faction to maybe constitute a full-on schism in Valinor over how their stewardship of Arda should be conducted going forward... So the Ring could in its own way continue to cause all kinds of havoc.
And a worse doom yet is possible. Were the Valar to notice their division, they might give the Ring to one greater than themselves. One with the might to shape a universe, and the ambition to create all the evils of Arda as part of a grander plan.
One who would not make good seem evil, but who would instead twist the nature of good to be utterly unrecognizable.
@@jy3n2 Of all potentially interested powers, only Eru has 'the might to shape a universe', especially with how much Morgoth over-expended his own essence in trying to pervert Arda. And Eru is as much beyond the power of the Ring as the Ring's power was beyond the strength of an average dust mite.
There's an implication in the Ainulindalë that maybe there might've been other spirits born from Eru's thoughts that, speculatively, could perhaps match or exceed Melkor, but they weren't involved in Arda and flew off into other parts of creation (i.e. outer space) to do stuff elsewhere. Even if they exist, I don't think most of them would want anything to do with Sauron's Ring, provided that the Valar would even be able to get in contact with them. Interstellar space is huge, and these Ainur likely have enough of their own problems to deal with as it stands.
Untangled: What would happen If Galadriel took the Ring?
Hela: Kneel before me and rise into the ranks of my great conquest
The one thing I could never understand. Since the One Ring was created by Sauron and the majority of his power was put in the ring, how in the world would Aragorn, Gandalf or Galadriel learn the rings true powers? Sure it made Bilbo and Frodo disappear, but their strength of character prevented them from mastering its powers. And even if Sauron was defeated by a ring wielding Aragorn or Gandalf, Sauron couldn’t be killed. He once again would be vanquished into the shadows until he once again became a force to recon with. Ultimately, Sauron would be able to reclaim the his Ring and dominate Middle Earth. The only way to get rid of Sauron for good, was to throw the ring into Mount Doom!
Jesus. This might be one of the best video essays I've heard
Thanks!
I'm still stuck with this question: how can there be rebellion when everything is part of Eru's design? There seems to be a contradiction of free will versus fate.
I guess we can think of it as free will nested inside a non-deterministic yet guided fate? Events like Iluvatar sending back Olorin as the White show that he is in charge of shaping the fate of Middle Earth while the participants have free will to conduct their actions.
To me, it's easy: free will is not random. You do what you want, but what you want is a result of who you are. So, while you may act freely, you will still be utterly predictable.
@@wyrmofvt but doesn't that boil down to fate? You make the choices that you make becuz of who you are and meant to be -- fate, no?
Eru himself addresses this in the Silmarillion actually. He says to Melkor (I forget the exact quote) something like "You will discover that all your rebellions end up fulfilling my ultimate design."
Really interesting, thanks!
If it was Eru Illuvitar’s “will” to kill millions of elves, humans, and dwarves by allowing Melkor to thrive in Middle Earth during the Time of the Trees and First Age, then Eru Illuvitar is a pretty sh*tty god.
Well met RD! Hope this finds you well. If it were Olórin who had wielded the one, it would've been much, much, much worse than Saur-Saur. Great analysis as always. Keep up the great work Mellon! Ecthelion!
I really loved the discussion of Tolkien's letter at the end.
I'M slowly going through your vids Rainbow Dave, and with every single one I am more and more strengthened in my believe that Professor did know exactly how this world works- meaning the unseen rules of morality, spirituality, that actually transfer to the material, real world. He perceived, what seems to be obvious, but yet invisible and ignored by majority. I think I will not be exaggerating if I say that his books could be regarded as moral road maps, equal to other big religious writings.
What incredible knowledge of Tolkien's work this guy has! Absolutely brilliant. I love the way he veritably chews his way through the various names of Tolkien's characters and places. Theatrical. I could listen to this dude for hours. 👏👏👏👏
Galadriel withstood the temptation. Gandalf also had the will to do so, as proved by the way he heated the One to unmask it.
Rewatching some of your amazing videos! I was wondering how are your writings coming?
Writing's going really well thanks. I've more or less finished my novel, and hopefully later in the year I'll try and get an agent for it.
@@tolkienuntangled That is really exciting! I hope we can read it someday soon.
that last letter speaks so true to what the world is like today, scarily so! i never knew how deep Tolkiens story really was.
To Aulë, the One Ring would’ve been nothing more than a noisy, annoying trinket. Aulë taught Mairon everything Mairon knew. But not all Aulë knew.
Wow. That was just an incredible video, especially the last 3-5 minutes with the WW2 parallels. Well done!
Thanks!
Another fantastic video, really appreciate your diligent research and thoughtful presentation.
Could you elaborate further as to why you feel Aule could not destroy it? I understand the argument about corruption, that I can go along with, but I'm unclear as to why the valar would not have had had the ability to destroy it if they wished, and in particular Aule -- my recollection is that Tolkein had said they wouldn't accept it (in short, 'not our problem'), but not that they couldn't have destroyed it. Though I lack your familiarity with his correspondence, so is there something else I've not come across that lead you to this conclusion?
I think the Valar would have had the means to destroy the one ring (e.g. they could have made a fire hot enough to melt it) but no being in the universe has the will to destroy it. Aulë could create a ring destroying machine, but I don't believe he would be able to bring himself to put the ring into it.
Eru Ilúvatar be like: “Jokes on you, Melkor. I love me some accidentals.”
Great video as always and very insightful reflection at the end.
A poem from Erich Kästner, a German pacifist and writer, contemporary to Tolkien, comes to mind (I am paraphrasing and shortening):
You say the end justifies the means? One thing is certain: The means desecrate the end!
There is one person in middle earth that could willingly destroy the one ring. The only person in the whole story who took a direct actions to destroy the ring. The one that looked at the ring, and instead of being tempted by it, tried to shatter it.
Gimli.
Obvious joke is obvious, awesome thought provoking video
You ever seen the movie Dogma, where God takes vacations to earth to play skeeball sometimes? That’s what I think of Tom Bombadil, Eru in human form, enjoying his creations. 🙂
Bonjour !
Many interesting things adressed here (as always, I do like your videos, and your way of talking smoothly). Especially the End with the Second World War, I wasn't expecting that.
Though, I would want to ask a question about Aule and Valars opinions about the ring. You take for granted that Aule would use the ring in this scenario, but would the ring really give such a being as Aule any more power than he already has ?
If the ring would not give him anything more than he have, would he simply not cast it away in his great collection of forged objects, for it never to see any use by anyone again ?
The ring would then end up like a piece of art to study, for the ring only to be admired by Aule, his assistants and his visitors time to time ?
NB 1 : I mean, Aule surely would have the means to craft a beautiful glass container for the ring over a red pillow or something alike.
NB2 : I imagine he must have a room full of finished pieces and artifacts since he is this great smith.
Regards from New Caledonia and take care !
I don't think it would actually give him greater power, but it would induce visions and deceptions of greater power, and the deception is what would corrupt Aulë.
Great video. There are many many people in the military who should watch the final 5 minutes of it 😔
in the last few months I've been looking for the video with the final 5 minutes of this one and I was almost going crazy since I didn't remember which channel it was or if it even was in German or English. (I've been following multiple lort channels both German and English and was scrolling through their videos looking for the video that could have your speech of the last 5 minutes in it. holy f. sorry about the repeating.)
Thank you so much for your awesome and long videos. Please never make them short. I absolutely love them this way 😍👏
That's a lot I take issue with in Jackson's adaptions but the Galadriel scene was very well done imo.
Coming from fantasy outside of LOTR it's always interesting to me that magic isn't something that people in this setting can just DO with any amount of training or preparation. Magic users are special, made for the specific purpose of going out among the world and doing good. The idea of a dark lord with Sauron's power having a mystical might that no hero in the land can ever hope to match them on...it's chilling in theory.
Hey Dave!!!
I had an intresting thought which I think poses a far more intresting question...
Nobody can destroy the one ring. Beren and Luthien could do anything on their quest to be together.
Hypothetically, if we swap the quest of Beren and Luthien with The Fellowship's quest and say that the noble mission of The Fellowship was to claim a Silamiril and Beren and Luthien had to destroy The Ring, but let everything else stay the same.
Would Beren and Luthien's love for each other be strong enough to break the rule that nobody had the will to cast the Ring into the lava?
I think it would be. We can already see how Beren and Luthien's love for each other allowed Beren's spirit to stay in Middle Earth and .... *Delay* the gift of men, so, if their love could push/change/influence/affect Eru's will, surely it could affect Sauron....
What do you think?
You have got to be way off with Aule. That "out of your league" argument is straight up valid. The One Ring would be a child's sand castle to him.
The Valar were never going to touch the ring because there's alternative versions and brief comments in LOTR which state that if a ship set sail for Valinor containing the one ring then it would be destroyed, the ring would sink to the bottom of the ocean before eventually washing up on the western shores of Middle Earth.
The Valar knew they could be corrupted as well and they had seen to much to let another Melkor or Sauron figure arise. They would have rejected the ring and preferred to condemn Middle Earth then be corrupted themselves and thus condemn all of Arda.
I don't disagree that they were susceptible to corruption (like Melkor) but it's unclear why they couldn't have destroyed it -- I'm not saying they would've done so, but remember in the beginning they were shaping the world, fighting with Melkor raising mountains and he would level them and so on, so if the ring could be destroyed in the fires of Orodruin, what makes you think they lacked the power to do some terraforming to access the same sort of fires that could unmake it?
I think they would refuse it, as you say, but would wish to avoid interfering rather than lacking the power to do so -- I think it's a situation where they wouldn't want to exercise their power for fear of consequences, recognizing they didn't fully understand Eru's plan, and as is said at the council, see it as a problem for middle earth to deal with without their direct intervention.
Having said that, it's annoying, since it's really indirectly their doing by their haste in their first venture to throw down Morgoth and not being thorough and netting Sauron then, or at the end of the war of wrath! And arguably even tolerating Sauron's continued threat after Eru's intervention post-the remaking of the world after the downfall of Numenor.
That's always been strange to me that yes, it was the Numenoreans who were responsible for breaking the ban, but to just ignore that the instigator of them going down that path was still extent and could continue to cause trouble. Baffling logic there guys, c'mon Manwe, get it together! I thought you guys were supposed to be the wisest, sheesh :D
I mean no disrespect, but you are underestimating the Valar bit too much and overestimating the corruption of the one ring when you say that it could corrupt them. Why would they be tempted to the power of the ring when they are powers of west.
He would become... "the Reverse Gandalf?!?"
NOOOOOOOOOOooooooo!!!
No mistake, defeat temptation..,
*A measure of control* ...
Hmm. So if, perchance, a completely ordinary dog were to, say, "fetch" the ring, carry it alongside a fellowship member all the way to the crack of doom and then "drop" it in such a way that it tumbled into the fiery chasm from whence it came ... would they be a very good dog?
The ring was temptation. Only iluvatar could withstand it. It's a fundamental force of nature.
What would've happened if they brought it to Valinor for the Valar to decide? I know it's not an option but I'm curious what your scenario would be
Interesting video, thanks again!
You mentioned Gandalf in possess of the One Ring as a Dark Wizard, but what off Radagast? He's a Maia as well, so in that regard equal in power to Sauron. I know, he's more foolish then the others and doesn't seem to care as much about people as he does about his birds and animals.
So, my question is: how would the story have ended if Radagast, somehow, got the One Ring?
I think that like everyone else, Radagast would eventually have been corrupted. However, Radagast doesn't seem to desire things in the same way as other characters, so I imagine his corruption would be slow. I actually have a video all about Radagast coming in a few weeks.
It was one of the great tricks Sauron pulled on everyone.
There was so much of Sauron infused into his ring that anyone who bore it would become Sauron.
Certainly he’d rather have it for himself, but either way he still wins.
Take it or leave it, what about a possible timeline where Saruman, joined the fellowship and helped them on their journey to destroy the ring, instead of him becoming a villain?
Theory question suggestion from a new subscriber!
3:56 this may be a bit nitpicky, but the orcs would've had every reason *not* to kill Frodo in this fight. Their orders were to capture the halfings and bring them alive, hence why they captured Merry and Pippin, but left Boromir there to die.
Very interesting speculation. I don't think the argument on Aule however holds water. Tolkien's world is highly hierarchical. If elves like Glorfindel stand out almost as a Maiar among the elves is precisely because there is a hierarchy where both Maiar and Elves fit, just as there is a hierarchy among the people of middle earth - god himself chose it, when he decided the order of their awakening. Even among men, there are the dunadein and the "lesser men". Melkor is only bullied by Fingolfin and Ungoliant because he had poured so much of his own power into his own works; creating balrogs and so on have basically spent him. A work of Sauron would not corrupt Aule, among other things, because Aule, as the highest expression of craftmanship anywhere in the Universe outside Eru Iluvatar himself would be able to either undo it, or recognizing its corruption, to remove. No matter Suaron's skill, Aule's will axiomaticaly be higher; there is nothing that Sauron, Saruman or Fëanor could make that Aule can't outdo.
Interesting analogy at the end. Thinking about it in the long term it is what is happening. that which is good is portrayed as evil. Tolkien was very prescient it looks like
What about goldberry she doesn't really seem to do anything but what if Tom Left the ring lying around and she picked it up and suddenly became the gold lord
I do think that Aule would have had the force of will that he could destroy the ring though. That would be on par with the fight against Melkor in the War for the Sake of the Elves, so while he could do it easily, it would have a massive cost. I do agree with your point that if he claimed the ring with the intention to use it, he would be corrupted, but I think he easily could have borne it to Mount Doom or even just destroyed it himself, though Middle Earth would probably be somewhat obliterated in the attempt.
Great. Just one q: without Merry in Gondor, would there have been the beacons?
Hmm, your comments in the beginning bring about a question that I don't know if it has ever been addressed? How did Gollum bite off Frodo's finger with the ring on it? Frodo at the time was invisible, was Gollum that attuned to the ring that he could detect it? Even if the wearer was invisible? How DID Gollum manage to bite just that one finger? In modern times, we normally wear fingers on our ring finger, was that the finger that Gollum bit off, or was it the index finger? In the movies, Frodo's top half of the finger is gone, why would the ring not have been down to base of the finger? If it was the ring finger, how did Gollum manage to just bite that finger and not the middle or pinky? Gollum does not seem to have the best of teeth, and adding to that Gollum's age, how was he able to bite down with enough force to not just bite down through flesh, but through bone as well?
Sauron was terrified because he saw the ring was right at the one place it could be destroyed.
Awesome