Secret Truth to Degreeing Your Camshaft: Dot to Dot isn’t Good Enough!!
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- čas přidán 30. 03. 2023
- Everyone out there has done it at some point. Line up the dots on your cam gears and bolt it together. But how far could it actually be off? What about the old worn out chain that’s slipped a tooth? What has that done to your cam timing?
This video unwraps those issues. Testing a #compcam and #440source timing set versus the old school single keyway version. There are many things in this video that home engine builders need to consider. @UnityMotorSportsGarage @UncleTonysGarage @DragBoss351Cleveland@talljohnsfunshop2722 @DavidVizard
For Justmoparjoe shirts and more visit: www.etsy.com/search?q=Justmop... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Glad to see you’re getting up to speed with this…good luck Joe!
Thanks Steve! It’s important for sure
Hey Joe, that was really cool. It always kind of offended me when people called me a grease monkey when I told them I was a mechanic. They just don't know how complex the trade really is. They are the same people who couldn't even change a tire at the side of the road or even locate the dip stick to check the oil in the engine.😢
You bring up a good point! Thanks brother
Thank you sir. Providing the rationale behind it all is much appreciated to make the job less intimidating. Well done!
Thanks Ron!
Thanks Joe! You are the only one I've seen that took the time to show different set-ups. That's a lot of work to help us understand.
Thanks brother. It was fun to see the difference. I actually checked them all 3-4 times off camera to verify. What a difference!
That was a great informational video! Made me realize why I lost so much bottom end after a timing chain swap on a 360 a few years ago. I guess I never realized it could be such a drastic change!
Thanks Cley. I wouldn’t have believed it without seeing it.
Good job Joe.
Great comparison.
Shows the "Importance" of a correctly degreed cam.
Thanks for sharing.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks for the help!
I swapped from a cheap double roller to a good Billet timing set and it made a huge difference in my timing. I will never go cheap again on timing sets. Great video.
Good stuff! Thanks Steven
Thank you Joe . Very very informative and wow what a difference in degrees between those 2 sets !! 😮😮
Glad it was helpful! Seeing was believing for me!
Thank you always for replying and teaching n sharing.
Very informative, thanks Joe
Thanks brother
Cool on showing the differences between the two timing sets !
Thanks, Tim! It was wild!
Very good detail, sir. Something new to learn everyday. When I replace a timing chain set, I always check that the dots on both the cam and crank sprockets line up correctly. The dot on the camshaft sprocket should be at six o'clock, and the crankshaft sprocket should be at twelve o'clock. This should also apply to GMs and Fords.
Yes sir. Be sure and check on newer builds. My gen 3 hemi had to have the crank gear at 12 o clock. There are others that way as well. It may have to be to make the computer and cam sensor happy.
Excellent explanation as usual Joe! Keep 'em coming 🏁
Thanks Tony! Finally got my headers here for the barracuda 🥳
Great video Joe. Very good information.
Thanks John!
Good video Joe, very informative!!!
Thank you!!!
Thanks brother
Very informative cam degreeing is like voodoo to me
Just dial her in 👍🏼
😎👍 precision is key.
Thanks John
Good info man, Hope you guys made it through the storms ok...
Thanks brother. Missed us by 2-3 miles 🙏🏼
I had an engine that went for years being mis diagnosed and given to me as a hopeless case. After checking the new Moroso timing set , dot to dot. the cam was advanced 18* ! the engine would idle okay ish but pop and fall on its face if you tried to drive it. The Lower cogs keyway was what was off.
I always degree my cams.
Thank you for sharing! I’d bet it’s happened numerous times and went unanswered.
I struggled with this one as a young man putting my cars together in the yesteryear of not having a ton of good tools to work with except for the dial indicator. I would be happy to get some help from the one neighbor who had a old degree wheel and I would get help from him and he would get me in to the point where I could drive it every day and on Friday night I would adjust the valves to get the power and then on Sunday morning and would readjust them to drive it to work and make sure they were good after the 5,500 honseing it would get Friday and Saturday night. Great day to you JMJ. Enjoyable video as always.
Thanks John!
Great video, Thanks. Subscribed !!
Thanks for the sub! I’ve got some good tech stuff coming up, along with races, building, painting, and probably something I’m forgetting 😂
that was a good demo...thank you
Glad you liked it!
Excellent video!!!!!
Thank you!
Great video!
Thanks brother. I definitely learned from it!
Every detail matters
This one is crucial! Cam is the brain of the engine. Thanks brother
There is a lot to engine building Joe 👍
Thanks brother
Good lesson Joe. Many popular "off the shelf" cams from Comp & others will grind in an extra 4 degrees ADVANCE for those who insist on just "dot to dot." Because,for a mild compression engine (10:00 & below) Advancing the cam can never hurt. I lived this stuff "back in the day" round track racing & on Mopars i've used Engles,Howards & even old Racer Brown grinds. A good rule is...a street motor never responds favorably to RETARDING the cam.
Thanks Shane! I enjoy the learning process
On a general build stock cam, stock gears, stock pistons dot to dot will usually be in the ball park, any performance motor needs to be degree'd, personally I degree every camshaft I install.
How is the adjustment made? I watched 10 vids on decreeing cams and nothing ever happens after the measuring?
@@ian9toes You need an adjustable timing set to make adjustments.
@@wally7856 cheers mate, I’ve already put my motor (TB48 Patrol) back together and it was just a matter of lining the yellow dots up and that’s it.
@@ian9toes In theory that's all you should ever have to do but parts get made wrong or 'ol cross eyes cut your cam on a Friday afternoon and things aren't right. Easier to verify with the engine on the stand then to troubleshoot who know's what's wrong when the engine is in the car not performing well.
I had a GF that had one tooth off...
It's good idea to leave the engine at TDC and test fit the timing chain cover to make sure the timing marks are correct.
Absolutely love to 👍🏼
Nice comparison. It's been a while since I did all that.
I wonder how one of those old factory gear sets with the plastic teeth would do?
Good question! I tried to dig one out, but they got pitched
I think it's called Veritable timing, you can change it with the computer, by changing when it fires, thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
Thanks Donald!
"They" say fire, fuel, and air is all you need to get an engine to run, but if you are out of time, it'll either run poorly, or snot and snort. Suck, bang, blow has to happen in order lol
Big facts!
As a retired tech, I can say, "Give me a cam -in -block design, any day".
OHC iz azzho
I noticed when you rotated the crankshaft Counter clockwise you stopped at .050 according to all the training I had you go past .050 then turn clockwise and stop at .050 this removes any possible slack in the chain or gear lash on a gear drive
Yes sir. You’ll see later in the video that I reference the way comp wants it. In reality, this Chain was tight enough to not show any variation, either way. The best way to discover that, is to check it.
My trickflows came in and i'm almost ready to put my 318 together.. i was gonna be lazy and not degree... i will be now though..
Better check it! Imagine how many cams out there are running, but way off!
I have this 361 bb old timer. Going to put Big Heads to it. Maybe some huge cam allso
Add Compression if possible 🫡
Cool.
Thanks brother
I always preach to degree EVERY cam whether performance or stock replacement. We did a solid .528 MP years ago with a Cloyes chain. Was 8° retarded! Then I saw on a forum where people were bashing the cam's performance...hmmmm
Thanks for sharing, Mark! I was once one of the ignorant people. But seeing is believing!
Those new fangled cam phasers started out a good 25 maybe 30 now. They are prone to noise, lack of adjustment and failure if the oll lets dirt get into them, lack of lubricant, and bad or broken springs will give you a bad engine in a instant. Granted they come a long way from the beginning they still , bu😂wt routine maintenance and good oil changes and premium filter still have to be followed along with the replacement schedule on the chains, guides and replacement parts in the kit. Maybe a video might on the list for him in the slower season after the Drags in the spring season. Great day today and enjoy your morning, freezing here, 32°F and windy at 20-30.
Oh man. We made it to 70 degrees. My track had a gamblers race. I’ll be there in a week or three
@@JustMoparJoe wow that's is a different one but it was the way it was.
@@JustMoparJoe and I wish you the best for it's still in the low 40's here with sunshine and the Wind is the way to get you back inside after a trial run.
@@JustMoparJoe I wish you a sooner arrival than that so you can get a few things done and try to get it done and tuned in before the bounty kicks in on my friend. God bless, be careful, and be safe. Great evening to you and your family JMJ.
I would love to see a dyno test I'm pretty sure that makes a difference
They have one on engine power on CZcams. They advanced a 383 cam and retarded it to the max safe limits. Then compared dyno graphs.
Hope everything is OK after the tornado Joe.
Thank you! We barely missed it.
That seems like more than stacked tolerances. Its like the cam got indexed wrong when ground? Hard to believe two timing sets both come up with ICL so far off.
I was able to advance the crank and get it perfect. Ed also recommends minimally checking #6 centerline as well.
Have you done a video for gear drive and are they better.
Thanks Bryan. I have not. I actually have one that’s new in the box. I’ve never used one before. Some guys love them, typically for blowers, etc. Most people hate them after any time because of the noise.
Always, always, ALWAYS degree the cam! I've had to retard some by five degrees and advance others by four to get them right. Thanks for sharing, Fellow Hotrodder!
Thank you! Imagine the guys who ran that gearset and was off by so much, but never checked!
👍💪
Thanks buddy
Hey Mopar Joe,.....Thx for another Helpful video.....Got a question 'bout your camshaft Install Lobe Centerline method & need a little clarification if you will.....After your Lobe Peak lift dial Indicator zero up, & you turn Clockwise to Drop 0.050" & Record Degree wheel #, Why do you Reverse direction & turn Opposite (CCW) go Back thru peak 0.00" & Continue CCW direction to Drop 0.050" again ? .....Seems that would Split the Timing chain Slack error + provide the Averaged corrected Lobe ICL position Degree position..Seems that Would be correct if the Crank Actually did Reverse directions when running but it don't. Why not Continue rotating Crank Clockwise & come up on the other side of Peak at the 0.050" point & Record Wheel Degree #, do the math thing & Record the Actual measured Lobe Centerline the Way the engine actually uses the Chain Slack ?? .....Keeping a wrench on the Camshaft bolt & slightly pulling CCW would insure All the Chain Slack is Out (like the engine does) during the rotation process.....I could be really messed up on this thinking & is why I'm asking.....Thx,.....tom..
Thanks for asking. I had to turn counter clockwise to get to the opposite side of the lobe. If it was a hill, I started off on very top, then running down hill .050. I reversed direction going back to the top, then past the .050, so I can sneak back to it (taking any real or assumed slack from the chain. I did try it without going past and it was still within a degree in the equation.
Thx Joe.....I'll keep that in mind.....Hey,....If you Kept the 1st one at 15 Retarded,......You'd have a 15K Rpm Mopar !!
Those mopar purple shaft cams are pretty much 108 center line a lot of people go with that ,but pat musi likes the 112-114 my cousin has a 68 Camaro SS he went with a comp cam we told them the engine specs 4 -speed 3.31 gears how tall the rear tire was and he let comp cams pick out the cam it sucked lol ,we put a old school 327/350 hp cam in it and it now performs ,crower cams don't go with a 108 there 112-114 Center line ,all of the edelbrock cams are 112-114 and the edelbrock pat musi rolling thunder series cams are 112- 114 centerline
Thanks for sharing, Darrell. Definitely a good idea to check any brand.
Great video Joe, but at 2:33 I'm reading 68 degrees instead of 63 as you said. Same at 7:49, 168 instead of 163? Anyway, maybe I'm wrong but I'd figure to point it out to you.
Thanks for sharing. I double checked when you said that. You can see the long line “65” above the line, and the “70” above the line. I was taking all measurements from the bottom side of the hangar wire. Thank you for sharing. Better safe than sorry.
@@JustMoparJoe got it. I assumed the top portion of the wire. The camera can alter the view aswell. Anyway, good to hear.
Had a DC 474 cam that was 20 deg off dot to dot. Best I could get was 4 deg. retarded using an offset key for the crank and one for the cam. It was a 360, 8-1, running a 4sp. If I hadn't degreed the cam, it would have been a total dog and I would have probably spent a ton of money on other parts not knowing why it was lame. Now, I NEVER install a cam without a degree wheel.
Crucial Lesson for sure
👍
Thanks brother
Joe I have a question for you man. I just put this 440 together, after the machine shop did the bottom end. It runs good, but I have a little bit of a clatter that sounds like bottom end. Only at idle, and letting off of throttle at low speed. I've already checked things like flexplate bolts etc...any idea what iy could be, or should I even worry about it? Thanks...
Did they float the wrist pins or were they press pins? That could make some noise. Also what's the initial timing set at? Is it too low? If oil pressure is solid, it's likely not an issue.
@JustMoparJoe Hmmm The bottom end is bone stock chrysler, just a rebuild with bearings. I put the Melling high volume pump on it, and at idle, maintains 55/60 lbs. When in gear and hot, it maintains 25 lbs of oil pressure. Definitely fluctuates when I give it throttle..
Try a quart of lucas oil stabilizer. I love it in everything.
@@killingcursivekustoms
@@JustMoparJoe It's already in there
I haven't seen your checking TDC video, but I'll guess you didn't match mark the inside hub to the outside ring. AFTER you've confirmed your dampener/timing cover marks are correct, I highly recommend you take less than 5mins and put a couple of little punch marks lining up the current orientation of outer ring to inner hub for the future. If for some reason the outer ring slips vs the inner hub, you will easily be able to visually tell, and you won't have to reinvent the wheel to figure out what happened.
Yes sir, Bud. That’s a common practice. Especially when they’re prone to slipping.
So say you’re dot to dot and still not matching the card. What’s the next step?
I verified that I was lined up, then advanced the cam by the crank gear. Then recheck 👍🏼
Ok, so with a special crank sprocket. Possibly an offset key?
Regardless, that’s the video I’d like to see.
not degreeing the Purple shaft cam , made my engine very sluggish years back,It sounded really powerful, we went dot to dot and not until 3,000 rpm did it start to pull. the 284/484 cam. zero knowledge available in 1980s. i do not think Direct connection told you to advance by 4 degrees
Thanks for sharing! That’s a good old grind
The purple shaft box gave recommended c/l number. I don't think they gave you degreeing instructions with the cams but there were several pages devoted to it in the Racing Manual. I don't EVER recall them recommending just blindly advancing the cam. They recommended ALWAYS degreeing the cam.
@@JustMoparJoe there is a Guy making Videos with said camshaft in his" duster garage " channel runs really nice too, very interesting that he has car in the near Mid Eleven second range
@@budlanctot3060 never said they did , just that i never found that Page , i did not Library stuff back then
Are you going to be able to move the came where you want it or do you have to live with cam being off 2 degrees?
Yes sir. Moving it with the crank ⚙️👍🏼
@@JustMoparJoe Please make a video of that, thanks!
@@ws2664 I will try to next week. I still have to video setting the end play on the camshaft
@@JustMoparJoe Yea no problem, when you get it that's fine, my brain cells are coming together as one.
You can also do it with offset bushings for the cam gear, or an offset key. With a 3-bolt cam it's probably better with a multi-heywayed crank sprocket or an offset crank snout woodruff key.
I'm going through a rough spot at the moment, so pls excuse me for not being able to contain myself for the cam being retarded 😅
Every laugh helps.
Haha! Time heals all bud
Is that you mopar joe
I had done a quick reference check similar to this last year when I replaced the timing chain in my 1995
4.0 litre jeep engine,
Now mind you, I wasn't using a degree wheel , or a piston stop or anything, I was just replacing the timing chain and some seals and gaskets to freshen up the engine a bit
Using the timing marks on the timing chain cover and the timing mark on the harmonic damper I was able to determine that the cam timing was running right around 10 . degrees retarded due to the amount of stretching and slack that the timing chain had , the engine had around 250,000 miles on it with its original timing chain and gears, and the timing chain was stretched out to the point that it was just starting to make light grooving on the rubbing block inside the timing chain cover .
I did not measure the exact amount of stretching in the timing chain and compare it to the new, but after seeing your video here today, I kinda wish that I would have measured it just for curiosity purposes.
Thank you for your videos Joe,
Keep up the great work.
Tim from Wisconsin.
Thanks for sharing!
What book were you reading from in the 1st 5 min?
It was probably the summit racing instructions with the cam degree wheel
Search for: sum-g1056-16.pdf
You checked one lobe , ive seen some crap ground cams , that are nowhere near the same in lft and duration
Checked one lobe on camera…
So one day in a drunken stupor, I decided to put the new timing set on the Ford Torino with a 302 2 barrel carb. I had bought a Edelbrock timing set so you already know it's got a lot of slop. Well it was Dark 🕶️ on a Saturday night and I thought the marks were aligned, well I'll cut to the chase, how many degrees is one tooth advance? 😆 I didn't use a degree wheel .
😂 that’s a story!
@@JustMoparJoe I left it like that and I was pulling front wheels a foot off the ground. I had to retard the distributor one tooth. Tons of torque.
Brilliant video. The one I've seen that simply explains what happens if your cam is too far advanced or retarded.
Awesome! Thanks for that!
😊
Thanks Shane!
It is off regardless of the dot unless it is a grocery getter.😊
She’s off, until we get her on!
I will assume the LSA on the camshaft is 110 am I correct
Yes sir and centerline is 106.
🤯 I just would like my 383 to idle.
Someday!
Thanks for watching
@JustMoparJoe Well I'm in the process of checking timing. It's a 1970 Roadrunner. It won't idle unless I manually open throttle.
@@bobbydelamar606 sounds like you need more initial timing
@@JustMoparJoe I bought the car like it is. I've tried turning the distributor both ways with no luck
I think that chain may even be too tight.
It’s a little tight, but with roller spring pressures, it will loosen up in no time. The 440 source was the right amount of tightness, after it was worked over. Few times and oiled.
To work out how many degrees 1 tooth makes just count the teeth on the gear and divide 360(degrees) by the tooth count, eg 360* ÷ 20(teeth on crank gear) = 18* per tooth.
Typically a worn(not stretched or the chain pitch changes and everything goes south immediatly) chain will jump the crank gear 1st as its smaller diameter gives more clearance per tooth as compared to the larger cam gear. If a chain jumps 1 tooth in operation its kind of pointless worrying how many degrees this retards the cam by because that chain is going to jump another tooth in very short order and that engine is not going to be running for long!
I am throwing together a 318 right now and I am in the middle of ordering parts and i have questions. Are you willing to contact me and guide me in the right direction? thanks in advance!
Send me an email with your questions. justmoparjoe@gmail.com
Theres no secret, just check the intake closing time..
See if its close to the card specs.. Its not like you can change the came, just its relationship to crank.. Its all basic stuff...
The basic stuff is exotic to many people. The video was really showing that the “dot to dot” method can’t be trusted!
Hurry up and get that motor built and do some paint and body so I can clown you🤣🤣
Haha! Will do!
It was 68 not 63. You can’t change it anyway it has three bolts and a dowel. Also once you do cam break in the chain will stretch somewhat and you will lose ( retard ) timing hence the ol gear drive system.
Gear drives are cool. But super noisy and not practical for the street. This engine is a street stroker. Mufflers and all. Check out this short. czcams.com/users/shortsVmvl0QGvN4U?feature=share
Close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades lol, never install a new set without degreeing it.
Bingo!
👍🏻💯🇦🇺⛽️⏱️
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Easiest explanation , other videos would have my eyes rolling or mouth yawning.
Thank you!
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