Just because AirPlay is sending things in bursts doesn't automatically mean it's lossy. You can send things in chunks and then reassemble them into a 16/44.1 PCM file in buffer. That doesn't prove anything. You need to intercept the traffic and actually look at the data in the packet.
Correct ... "continuous" network transfer vs bursts doesn't prove anything, but it's an easy way to visually identify buffered vs real-time Airplay streams ... comparing the average bitrates is more convincing More details available here ... docs.google.com/document/d/1BUee0PqM6LC4lo6HqTtEb5bQxs4GoCFSxvEsOveWvS8/edit?usp=sharing
When I first started watching your channel I was drawn by the mid century modern interiors, your down to earthness and the intro's with the coffee making. Love to see that nothing has changed and the coffee making is back :)
If your are interested in picking up a used Airport Express with Airplay 1 note that there are two versions- The first Express (model A1084) was wireless A/B/G, and the next gen (model A1264), obviously, is wireless N. They both look the same in the old body style. More importantly, the oler model A1084 doesn't interface with Airport Utility 6.0. at all. It can't be recognized by your network if you're running 6.0 - you'll just see the amber light. So you will need the A1264 to use with Airport Utility 6.0 and have the benefit of N wireless along with Airplay 1.
Absolutely love this video. This is exactly the kind of information I look for, which is to say that it's technical and specific, but it is also not above my head and nicely contextualized so that people can decide for themselves whether or not it's worth taking any action to address. Useful information without a whole lot of judgement or hyperbole. Hit me right in the sweet spot. Thanks.
This is the most helpful insight to AirPlay I’ve seen. Now, I have to decide which streaming service I need to move to to get the max data rate and best quality. Love the channel and all the information. Bang up job!!!!!!
You explanation here on why you think it is lossy is either poor or plain wrong. Just because data is sent in bursts does not mean that less data is sent. Full lossless CD Audio is approx 1.5 MBytes per second so approx 15MBytes ever ten seconds. A 5GHz wireless connection can transmit about 130MB per second so you'd need a little over 1/10th second burst to provide all the lossless data you need for the next 10 seconds of playback. It would be highly inefficient to send a tiny amount of data continously. I am suprised tgat AP1 apparently took this approach, bizarre. Do you think the streams that you get from TIDAL or the like are continuous? Well they're not, all Internet data is split up and sent across the Internet in chunks. The chunks may or may not arrive in the right order, but that doesn't matter they're put back together again, perfectly. Besides the next part of the file is only sent when the receiver requests it, the transmitter doesn't just keep sending a huge file as one continuous lump without any handshaking and control from the receiver end.
So true, the issue is that audiophiles are a tiny group and are not worth catering for. It may well get done at some point, but at this time, they are catering for the bigger group.
You do know that ALL network transmitted data is not sent continously? Ie the files are sent in "bursts" (packets) Just because the data is not sent continously does not mean it's lossy!
When you put the music files onto your iOS device it's always transmitted with ALAC encoding. The fallback to AAC is only if the files are streamed wirelessly from another device to the iOS device to the AirPlay2 receiver. I verified this with my own shairport-sync installation which has a debug mode when started on the command line. ;)
So if I download an album that I would like to listen to in the lossless quality option, and then airplay stream it to my Bluesound powernode… That would continue to transmit in CD lossless quality? And are you sure about your findings?
I’ve been using the DJ Pro app on and off and recently they updated so that you can play Apple Music through it. If you then use Apple Music to Airplay the music to WiiM Pro, the WiiM app shows 900kbps as opposed to the 256kbps if you Airplay directly from Apple Music. Appears to be gapless too (appreciate is a dj app with mixing anyway.)
Great investigative work John and Brother Thomas! .... May I suggest a topic for another video: the Apple Music app feature to "Control Other Speakers & TVs" for those who want to stream Apple Music Lossless controlled by their iPhones. I avoid AirPlay 1 or 2 for reasons that John stated in the beginning of the video (battery drain, loss of music when out of WiFi range, or interruption when taking a phone call). My preferred method is to use the iPhone as merely a remote control by choosing the option to "Control Other Speakers & TVs". In my case the other devices are Apple TV 4K's connected via HDMI to Oppo 205 and 105D. The device being "controlled" then streams Apple Music Lossless directly from the internet. Cheers, Gary
I use the button below Airplay on my iPhone or iPad, use the device as a remote. That way I can go directly to the streaming device and can even close Apple Music and the stream will continue. For automations I use the Homekit app and here this is also working.
Very pleased to see your upgraded coffee game - filter coffee is the best coffee! Try a stir of the slurry at the end of your pouring to get those high and dry grounds to draw down fully - you'll get a more even extraction and balanced cup.
I love the more technical discussions! Especially on the software/hardware interaction. Knew of Airplay 1 & 2 but not of their technical differences. A lot of the information here confirms my own suspicions about AirPlay's 'inconsistencies' and why I disliked Apple Music over even just Spotify in some cases.
Why oh why oh why. Just keep it simple Apple FFS. Stop thinking for us. Thankyou Brother Thomas and Brother Darko for this analysis. I just want to hit play and listen to lossless music all the time. This is not science fiction.
I like your videos. Extremely easy to understand hard to get material like losless, lossy, hardware and app differences. However I am missing an overview which apps support airplay 1 for losless music.
This finally explains why there is an easily perceptible difference (for me) between playing music locally through my M1 Mac mini as the source for my hifi rack vs streaming from my 13mini! I did tons of research a while ago and the findings were similar in that AirPlay 1 devices reliably did cd quality lossless, however there was no rhyme nor reason to it. Nice to have an explanation :)
If you mean from a mac to your system by , no Airplay, macOS has no exclusive mode, unlike iOS. Are you adjusting Audio MIDI Setup on the mac so it matches your audio file? For every song… If not, like me, I just set mine to 24 bit/176.4 kHz as none of the bit perfect add ons from third parties work all that well and that setting works well for nearly all music resolutions for upsampling. If by Airplay from mac to your system, Audio MIDI Setup does not come into play.
Hi John! Dig the Jazz soundtrack music on this vid. As stated, the apple airport needed a 3.5 to to toslink cable to your DAC. Unfortunately i found the drop outs unbearable. I had to go 3.5 to RCA into the amp and use the internal airport DAC. With this configuration at the time, I found the sound decent with no drop outs. Things have moved on from then with Connect features and DAC's. But you got me thinking ! Im going to do a comparison between my old Apple Airport set up and current streaming kit to hear how far along i've actually come.
Connect your iPad via dac to stereo. Open settings on your iPhone - go to settings - accessibility - control nearby device - select control nearby device - select your iPad - select the … icon (3 … in a circle) - use media to control your iPad.
You can do that in some scenarios. I control my iPad that’s streaming over Airplay 2 with my Watch and iPhone. Play around with Control Center on iPhone and Now Playing on Apple Watch.
There is one more mode when Apple stream losess - from Mac, when you in audio setting in remote control app (or in apple music app on Mac) select streamer as output device.Then you should get lossless audio stream, you can then control playback with remote app.
I’ve noticed this stays as lossless too… but I have read in other threads that it’s only really indicating the source quality and upon arrival AirPlay 2 is still playing as lossy aac.
Spotted the Baratza grinder. I use my iPhone to control the AppleTV4k for Apple Music, HDMI to AVR. Still have an AirPort Express in a box not currently used.
Actually, the Apple Airport Express 1st gen supports Airplay 2 if it is the A1264 updated version and is using firmware 7.8 or higher. It also has draft N wi-fi support. The 2nd gen Airport Express A1392 came with Airplay 2 support and was released as far back as 2012. Only the original version A1084 which was draft G wi-fi is limited to Airplay 1. So I think you're mistaken about Airplay capability for those devices. And I own and have used all three iterations.
Whenever I use a wireless connection to stream music or video with sound, I do not expect a lossless playback. If you're going wireless you've already chosen convenience as the primary factor. So when I really want the full experience - it's cables all the way :) Kabelsalat ist gesund! :)
I use my Apple TV 4K to stream Apple Music over Airplay to my Powernode 2i. I start it with a scenario in the Home app activating them to play an album or playlist which I change from time to time. I then use Control other speakers….. in the Controlcenter on my iPhone or iPad to manage the music playback. This works very good, even better now with IOS 17. I have compared the sound with Tidal, and I really can’t tell any noticeable difference. I have read that the HomePod uses 24/48 Bitrate when paired with an other HomePod. Can it be that Apple Music down samples to AAC when you stream over Airplay from an iPhone or iPad to preserve power, and use ALAC when streaming from an AC connected device like HomePod and Apple TV when power consumption is no issue. It would be interesting if you John or Brother Thomas, or anybody else, could try to verify this. As I say, Apple Music over Airplay from Apple TV to my Powernode 2i sounds really good and is super easy to operate with the Home app.
I just started using my IPhone 15 Pro connected to my DDC using silver USB connects from MPS( Taiwan company ) using my Iwatch as remote. The results are shockingly way better than my Mac Mini in every respect. That to me is the best solution for playing Apple Music.
Cf. The audiophilestyle article from a couple of years ago entitled “Apple Music Lossless Mess Part 2: AirPlay” which also goes into this in some detail from a slightly different slant
Good to know! I am still using shairport-sync on my nano-pi with toslink hat and even considered replacing it Wiim pro just to get Airplay 2. I think i will skip this upgrade then :)
John, this is f***king insane. It does explain finally why when I stream Amazon Music or my ripped CD's via AirPlay (I assume AP2) on an iPhone 12 to the Wiim Mini endpoint, the sound is definitely inferior as compared to streaming CD quality from the Wiim Mini Amazon app to the Mini endpoint. I thought I was imagining the lower audio quality. Thanks to you and Brother Thomas!
Good video! Lately I made quite the effort to stream lossless files to my integrated amplifier. I connected an apple tv a1469 with toslink to the amp and put all 16-24 bit 48khz (I read somewhere that 48khz 24bit is the highest an apple tv can handle but brother thomas's table seems to indicate otherwise) music in the music app on my iPhone. For a moment there I thought that all this effort has been futile but my phone shows the finch without circle when selecting the apple tv for music. I looked somewhat further into it and it seems as if this apple tv (happily) does not support airplay 2. I'm surprised at how complicated all of this is and determined not to get a newer apple tv soon.
I wonder if there are others who feel that the more they know about audio the less they want to know. Of course the mystery still lives in the music and no matter how much a musician learns about how Bach composed or how Aphex Twin created beats we remain lost in wonder. Sometimes knowledge even enhances that sense of wonder (particularly when rules and limitations are broken). But the inner workings of Apple’s bits (and blobs)… I almost don’t want to know. Thank you, however, for the information and the great content you create.
Idk if it's new, but you can set hi -res lossless for wifi streaming in settings - music - audio quality. When streaming from my phone to a receiver connected to my hifi, it now tells me it's 24/96 just like when the iPad is connected via usb-c to my dac.
this is for streaming to the device. So the device itself will receive the full lossless data but when sending it out over airplay 2 it will down convert to 256kbps AAC. Unless you’re sending it over airplay 1 it is lossy.
Please continue this kind of videos....this was so interesting and informative. It's crazy how there is now direct info on this on Apple's website for example. Oh and thank brother Thomas (I hope I wrote his name right HAHAH)
Hello, interesting work but I’m not sure it’s totally sorted out. How about the other Airplay 2 feature allowing you to take control of the receiver without streaming to it? (As mentioned by an other comment there’s the option at the bottom of your phone’s screen in the video) In this situation, and from my own experience, the phone is totally removed from the audio path and you could even shut down your phone. Is Apple streaming lossless music or lossy music from Apple server to the receiver?
Great video. when using AirPlay from my iPhone to my macbook on Spotify, it seems to cut the high frequencies above 17khz, so in that case it is definitely not lossless. Would that be Airplay 2? edit: i know Spotify itself is not lossless, but I'm talking about the transmission process from the phone to the computer being lossless itself.
John, love your content , great job. (thanks B Thomas!)Kinda, make me wonder why spend $$$$$ on high end gear if the source is typically streaming? If source material is CD or vinyl then one could make a case for a bigger budget for gear. John thanks for helping us sort facts from marketing (hardware and software).
I stream Apple Music from my 2022 iPad via Airplay onto my Anthem AVM 70, Accuphase a45, Martin Logan electrostats. It sounds incredible, couldn't dream for a better sound. Only downside still is that often at about 10 seconds in a track it may skip a bit. Known glitch with Apple Music. Hope they will solve this.
I’m using airplay2 to buchartd gear via an AirPort Express - sound is lovely. My only concern is it could sound lovelier… but I’m in it for the ride, and happy to roll along. I also don’t think this packet theory is correct ❤
It seems it would make more sense if the receiver and media source supports it, to send the URL for the media steam to the receiver, then the sender just basically becomes a remote.
Found at home in a box an old Apple TV Gen 2 with optical output, connected it to a optical input of my Naim NAC N272, and what a breeze, cd quality from Apple Music and my iTunes stored CDs. Just connected without screens or nothing else and it appeared, then selected, and bam, there we went...
So this means that despite all the hype re Apple Music lossless, and high res, if you use Airplay from a modern iPhone then you will get similar results from the Spotify app, which will stream the original 320 stream losslessly and the Apple Music app which will stream a 256 version of a lossless track. Go figure!!!
Airport express (the one that looks like white apple tv) got it's Airplay2 update via software. I'm not so sure about HW lvl of Airplay2 you were talking about. Still interesting video. Thanks!
As a test this I sent a tidal stream (Airplay 2 - tick in white circle) via the iOS tidal app from my iPad via Air play to my Lyngdorf TDAI (Airplay 2 according to Lyngdorf website). The Lyngdorf tells me that it is playing at PCM 16 /44 so CD quality - I’m properly confused.
some amount of audio data is permanently discarded when encoding to a lossy file format (in this case, AAC) ... all compressed formats (whether lossy or lossless) have to be decoded at the receiving end and output to a format the DAC can use (in this case, PCM 16/44)
That's because the Tidal App is sending it as Airplay 1 - which is the continuous stream. The app developer can specify AP1 or AP2, regardless of the hardware connection protocol - according to Brother Thomas.
Love this content John and Thank You Bro' Thomas. I'm a little old fashioned and use my Mac as the streaming control around the house, so I now need to see how this affects quality too. 🤣 BTW for any AudioPro owners, the Wiim app also controls their hardware and seems a little more stable when selecting radio content. 👍
Great video and info John and Brother Thomas. I also tried various ways to listen to Apple Music on my setup (BlueSound POWERNODE and Polk Audio Reserve R200 speakers), including streaming from an iPhone, an iPad, a MacBook Pro and an AppleTV. I found that the best quality was directly from an LG tv with the Apple Music app installed (via LG WebOS) and using the HDMI connection.
Or just get an Apple camera cable a top end DAC and wire it into a high quality stereo. Apple Music and Apple Classical via a small iFi ZEN Signature DAC v2 is full HiRes and sounds better than any BlueSound product I’ve demoed. The iFi holds its own with top Rega and Marantz amps into serious speakers such as AE 520s. The Node system is less accurate.
I think the webos LG app on the TV has a really nice interface. Maybe the best. However, note that Apple Music controls like that on a non Apple device, stream only AAC 256. But it still sounds great!
Thanks John and Br Thomas , Very informative. Who would have thought that Airplay 2 would compromise the sound quality? Before (tidal,spotify) connect came along Airplay was the streaming choice for many albeit Airplay 1.
It did not. This is only a situation under specific use while using paid Apple Music streaming. I stream fine ALAC files from a Mac using iTunes Remote on iOS as well at Lightning to USB to DAC to amp.
My first foray into streaming was Tidal on my iPhone 8 to an older Apple TV with optical output. The optical fed a Schiit Modi3. It’s long been replaced by an assortment of streamers the current ones being a Node and WiiM Mini. I use the same DAC on the WiiM
Do you mean streaming directly inside Apple TV's native Apple Music app? Unless you're using ethernet cable, I think any AppleTV HD and 4K are Airplay2. If via iPhone + any app using Airplay2 = it might be downsampling to 256kbps AAC. So, Toslink might account for some sonic improvement above Airplay. Methinks there is also some sonic improvement via optical Toslink and could also be benefitting from your amp/receiver's DAC + implementation. Per John's comments at the end, if your iPhone Airplay menu shows just a Checkmark = Airplay1. If iPhone Airplay menu shows a filled in Circle with a Checkmark = Airplay2.
That’s how my system is setup… so is that lossless as it is potentially hard wired from router to play device. But as I instigated the stream from an iPhone or I pad would this be lossy… But I quite often go direct from a Ethernet connected Apple TV OS to a HDMI TV then hard wired to amp? Now as a person has already said… my brain hurts 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
What I don’t get is the causal relationship between the type of streaming and compression. You can also have lossy compression with continuous streaming and lossless with burst streaming.
While “AirPlay” came out much later, the functionality was there many years earlier with the first generation AirPort Express, it just used iTunes to send the lossless stream. Back in those days you could verify easily if it was sending a true lossless stream because if you had a hdcd dac, the light would light up when receiving a cd rip in Apple Lossless format in iTunes.
This is why I use AppleTV’s and HomePods for music play back. HomePods just get a handoff from iPhones to play back the music. The AppleTV is just a player of music.
It’s capable of 24-bit/48kHz lossless with its built in DAC according to Apple support documentation. Its built in amp can power headphones up to 100 Ohms sufficiently with clean output. I’m not ‘brother thomas’ but this info about the adapter has been known for some time.
The most amazing thing to me is.....your 1st gen Express router is still working. Or actually should say it can still be set up. Mine was kicked off my network years ago for being too old so wondering if it works when setting up its own network or maybe European wifi standard makes it easier to still utilize? The rest is just Apple gibberish to me (yes, I understood all of it but...) I'm still disappointed they haven't made a desktop version that passes hi-res when possible like the iOS version. Dammit!
not sure that non continuous data (pulsed) over airplay2 necessarily means it's lossy - if the rate of data transmission is high enough during the pulse then it could provide enough data to be lossless. not saying "brother Thomas" is wrong - just saying the assumption doesn't follow ... unless there is more info that hasn't been conveyed in the video.
@@DarkoAudio thanks for the reply , and thanks for the interesting video. I'm just skeptical by nature. whathifi saying "Apple Music’s Lossless streams supposedly convert from ALAC (Apple’s lossless codec) into AAC (Apple’s lossy codec) at a pretty lowly 256kbps when transmitted over AirPlay - and therefore not losslessly" ... doesn't really add convincing evidence.
I just noticed the quality of Airplay is so much worse streaming to my Powernode, it was not like that last week! :( I’m using bluetooth now which I didn’t use before because Airplay was much better
Ok so this is good to know. When I am streaming from my phone to my Sonos arc it’s compressed. However, if I use the Sonos app or my Apple TV (since it’s connected by HDMI) as the source it’s lossless then. Geez I will no longer use airplay now to all my Sonos speakers :(
So what if you do this to one Sonos speaker, let’s call it the Sonos ray via fibre optic, and then turn the other Sonos speakers on using Sonos app, what happens then ?
@@ridley68 my understanding that flac was not compressed, my misunderstanding then. My statement still stands that aac seems to be a very good way of transmission given its 256
iFi Audio JUST put out a firmware update that makes the Zen Stream an Airplay 2 device which just screwed any Zen Stream users using Airplay from the Apple Music app to the Zen Stream which now compresses the CD and High Res quality down to 256k AAC!!!!! Thanks, Apple!
Hi, I have never used any Apple product but still loved learning more about it. Do you think you could do a video comparing Roon Plex Amp? I use Plex Amp and have Roon but rarely use it. I control my music with whatever screen is nearest to me. I also use the Sony NW-ZX707.
Thanks John, and thank you Brother Thomas. It really isn't simple, is it? I like multi-room audio, so I was delighted with Airplay 2. I was already running Shairport/Airplay 1 on a Raspberry Pi 3B+ in my lounge room, and I bought the Apple TV 4K for my televsion and stereo in my media room. However, I endured consistent and regular loss of audio from the Apple TV anytime I selected more than one endpoint, anywhere from 3 minutes to half an hour at most. Single endpoint always worked fine.The Shairport never missed a beat. I changed the TV, the amplifier, the phone, the network, all the operating systems and yet the problem persisted for over a year: it looked like the AppleTV was playing the music, but no sound came out. I wasn't alone, some on the apple forums with similar experiences, but no real solution. I found, eventually, that Mike Brady had developed shairport-sync, an Airplay 2 client, and that did the trick: with now only Airplay 2 endpoints, I have consistent multi-room audio and no more drop outs. So mixing that protocol didn't work out so well for me, your mileage may vary.
I never bother playing anything lossless from my phone. I just don’t think I’m going to notice the difference in my car or other noisy environments I use my phone in. (Don’t bother with my work computer either for the same reason.) I also quickly gave up on the AirPort Express as a way to stream from my home computer to my stereo because I had to reboot it daily. Even though I buy a new iPhone every few years I don’t think I’ll ever use Apple Music (except for that time Siri started my free trial without permission).
Thanks for the tip on identifying airplay 1 v 2 with the marks... If I am streaming via my iPhone, I am not concerned about total quality as I'll have my airpods in or be using my Sony headphones on an airplane. If I want to Listen, I stream via my 1st gen AppleTV 4k that has lan connectivity, use the HDMI out, and ultimately ending in the receiver and not using any bluetooth or airplay. You CAN tell a difference. I have an older Denon AVR 1911 and using Mirage 1090I for the fronts and bi-wire them.
Just because AirPlay is sending things in bursts doesn't automatically mean it's lossy. You can send things in chunks and then reassemble them into a 16/44.1 PCM file in buffer. That doesn't prove anything. You need to intercept the traffic and actually look at the data in the packet.
Correct ... "continuous" network transfer vs bursts doesn't prove anything, but it's an easy way to visually identify buffered vs real-time Airplay streams ... comparing the average bitrates is more convincing
More details available here ... docs.google.com/document/d/1BUee0PqM6LC4lo6HqTtEb5bQxs4GoCFSxvEsOveWvS8/edit?usp=sharing
When I first started watching your channel I was drawn by the mid century modern interiors, your down to earthness and the intro's with the coffee making. Love to see that nothing has changed and the coffee making is back :)
If your are interested in picking up a used Airport Express with Airplay 1 note that there are two versions-
The first Express (model A1084) was wireless A/B/G, and the next gen (model A1264), obviously, is wireless N. They both look the same in the old body style.
More importantly, the oler model A1084 doesn't interface with Airport Utility 6.0. at all. It can't be recognized by your network if you're running 6.0 - you'll just see the amber light. So you will need the A1264 to use with Airport Utility 6.0 and have the benefit of N wireless along with Airplay 1.
Absolutely love this video. This is exactly the kind of information I look for, which is to say that it's technical and specific, but it is also not above my head and nicely contextualized so that people can decide for themselves whether or not it's worth taking any action to address. Useful information without a whole lot of judgement or hyperbole. Hit me right in the sweet spot. Thanks.
Thought I was watching James Hoffman for the first 40 seconds.
This is the most helpful insight to AirPlay I’ve seen. Now, I have to decide which streaming service I need to move to to get the max data rate and best quality. Love the channel and all the information. Bang up job!!!!!!
My brain hurts.
You explanation here on why you think it is lossy is either poor or plain wrong.
Just because data is sent in bursts does not mean that less data is sent.
Full lossless CD Audio is approx 1.5 MBytes per second so approx 15MBytes ever ten seconds. A 5GHz wireless connection can transmit about 130MB per second so you'd need a little over 1/10th second burst to provide all the lossless data you need for the next 10 seconds of playback. It would be highly inefficient to send a tiny amount of data continously. I am suprised tgat AP1 apparently took this approach, bizarre.
Do you think the streams that you get from TIDAL or the like are continuous? Well they're not, all Internet data is split up and sent across the Internet in chunks. The chunks may or may not arrive in the right order, but that doesn't matter they're put back together again, perfectly. Besides the next part of the file is only sent when the receiver requests it, the transmitter doesn't just keep sending a huge file as one continuous lump without any handshaking and control from the receiver end.
I watched this whole presentation to the end and hardly understood any of it. Good job, John 😉. Always entertaining!!
To play cd quality from Apple Music. You need a1264 airplay 1 . Connect to a good dac . And set to 7.5.2 version.
Apple could win over so many audiophiles if they just properly sorted out Apple Music lossless and made it as good as Spotify Connect
So true, the issue is that audiophiles are a tiny group and are not worth catering for. It may well get done at some point, but at this time, they are catering for the bigger group.
I think you mean *work* as good as (UX) as Connect. Apple Music in lossless is better sounding than lossy Spotify.
I like the nod to Cheapaudioman - except you show how a proper cup of coffee should be made.
Does that imply my Kcups suck? 😀
You do know that ALL network transmitted data is not sent continously?
Ie the files are sent in "bursts" (packets)
Just because the data is not sent continously does not mean it's lossy!
When you put the music files onto your iOS device it's always transmitted with ALAC encoding.
The fallback to AAC is only if the files are streamed wirelessly from another device to the iOS device to the AirPlay2 receiver.
I verified this with my own shairport-sync installation which has a debug mode when started on the command line. ;)
So if I download an album that I would like to listen to in the lossless quality option, and then airplay stream it to my Bluesound powernode… That would continue to transmit in CD lossless quality? And are you sure about your findings?
I’ve been using the DJ Pro app on and off and recently they updated so that you can play Apple Music through it. If you then use Apple Music to Airplay the music to WiiM Pro, the WiiM app shows 900kbps as opposed to the 256kbps if you Airplay directly from Apple Music. Appears to be gapless too (appreciate is a dj app with mixing anyway.)
Great investigative work John and Brother Thomas! .... May I suggest a topic for another video: the Apple Music app feature to "Control Other Speakers & TVs" for those who want to stream Apple Music Lossless controlled by their iPhones.
I avoid AirPlay 1 or 2 for reasons that John stated in the beginning of the video (battery drain, loss of music when out of WiFi range, or interruption when taking a phone call). My preferred method is to use the iPhone as merely a remote control by choosing the option to "Control Other Speakers & TVs". In my case the other devices are Apple TV 4K's connected via HDMI to Oppo 205 and 105D. The device being "controlled" then streams Apple Music Lossless directly from the internet.
Cheers, Gary
That's a useful comment. Will definitely try that! 💯
Thumbs up to those who think Brother Thomas deserves a sainthood.
I use the button below Airplay on my iPhone or iPad, use the device as a remote. That way I can go directly to the streaming device and can even close Apple Music and the stream will continue.
For automations I use the Homekit app and here this is also working.
Very pleased to see your upgraded coffee game - filter coffee is the best coffee! Try a stir of the slurry at the end of your pouring to get those high and dry grounds to draw down fully - you'll get a more even extraction and balanced cup.
Coffee isn’t healthy as many people think. It contains acrylomide
@@LencoTBNeither is the air we breath.
Amen brother Thomas
I love the more technical discussions!
Especially on the software/hardware interaction. Knew of Airplay 1 & 2 but not of their technical differences.
A lot of the information here confirms my own suspicions about AirPlay's 'inconsistencies' and why I disliked Apple Music over even just Spotify in some cases.
I can smell the coffee looking at this.
Why oh why oh why. Just keep it simple Apple FFS. Stop thinking for us. Thankyou Brother Thomas and Brother Darko for this analysis. I just want to hit play and listen to lossless music all the time. This is not science fiction.
I love the coffee intros John!
Great video, and also a great V60 pourover technique!
Love your reveal of why Brother Thomas is named so at the end.
This is fantastic video. So well detailed and laid out. No fluff, just the facts, engagingly presented. Love it.
I like your videos. Extremely easy to understand hard to get material like losless, lossy, hardware and app differences. However I am missing an overview which apps support airplay 1 for losless music.
This finally explains why there is an easily perceptible difference (for me) between playing music locally through my M1 Mac mini as the source for my hifi rack vs streaming from my 13mini! I did tons of research a while ago and the findings were similar in that AirPlay 1 devices reliably did cd quality lossless, however there was no rhyme nor reason to it. Nice to have an explanation :)
If you mean from a mac to your system by , no Airplay, macOS has no exclusive mode, unlike iOS. Are you adjusting Audio MIDI Setup on the mac so it matches your audio file? For every song… If not, like me, I just set mine to 24 bit/176.4 kHz as none of the bit perfect add ons from third parties work all that well and that setting works well for nearly all music resolutions for upsampling.
If by Airplay from mac to your system, Audio MIDI Setup does not come into play.
Hi John! Dig the Jazz soundtrack music on this vid. As stated, the apple airport needed a 3.5 to to toslink cable to your DAC. Unfortunately i found the drop outs unbearable. I had to go 3.5 to RCA into the amp and use the internal airport DAC. With this configuration at the time, I found the sound decent with no drop outs. Things have moved on from then with Connect features and DAC's. But you got me thinking ! Im going to do a comparison between my old Apple Airport set up and current streaming kit to hear how far along i've actually come.
I wish I could just control my IPad’s Apple Music playback remotely with my iPhone. Then I won’t need to use Airplay.
Connect your iPad via dac to stereo. Open settings on your iPhone - go to settings - accessibility - control nearby device - select control nearby device - select your iPad - select the … icon (3 … in a circle) - use media to control your iPad.
It is not possible but it is possible to remotely control ATV
You can place your iPad and remote control it with your iphone
Should be able to? Settings, accessibility, control nearby devices.
You can do that in some scenarios. I control my iPad that’s streaming over Airplay 2 with my Watch and iPhone. Play around with Control Center on iPhone and Now Playing on Apple Watch.
There is one more mode when Apple stream losess - from Mac, when you in audio setting in remote control app (or in apple music app on Mac) select streamer as output device.Then you should get lossless audio stream, you can then control playback with remote app.
I’ve noticed this stays as lossless too… but I have read in other threads that it’s only really indicating the source quality and upon arrival AirPlay 2 is still playing as lossy aac.
Spotted the Baratza grinder. I use my iPhone to control the AppleTV4k for Apple Music, HDMI to AVR. Still have an AirPort Express in a box not currently used.
Actually, the Apple Airport Express 1st gen supports Airplay 2 if it is the A1264 updated version and is using firmware 7.8 or higher. It also has draft N wi-fi support. The 2nd gen Airport Express A1392 came with Airplay 2 support and was released as far back as 2012. Only the original version A1084 which was draft G wi-fi is limited to Airplay 1. So I think you're mistaken about Airplay capability for those devices. And I own and have used all three iterations.
Whenever I use a wireless connection to stream music or video with sound, I do not expect a lossless playback. If you're going wireless you've already chosen convenience as the primary factor. So when I really want the full experience - it's cables all the way :) Kabelsalat ist gesund! :)
Outstanding organization of information and delivery of such! Well done Mr. Darko.
The irony of the newer standard being more gimped. You'd think it would be the reverse.
It was a way to make people (the majority of which don't care much about sound quality) magically think they had better batteries. Well, nope.
John, thank you for an excellent installment. This clarity is much needed.
Start of this, i couldnt tell if it was Darko or James Hoffman!
I use my Apple TV 4K to stream Apple Music over Airplay to my Powernode 2i. I start it with a scenario in the Home app activating them to play an album or playlist which I change from time to time. I then use Control other speakers….. in the Controlcenter on my iPhone or iPad to manage the music playback. This works very good, even better now with IOS 17. I have compared the sound with Tidal, and I really can’t tell any noticeable difference.
I have read that the HomePod uses 24/48 Bitrate when paired with an other HomePod. Can it be that Apple Music down samples to AAC when you stream over Airplay from an iPhone or iPad to preserve power, and use ALAC when streaming from an AC connected device like HomePod and Apple TV when power consumption is no issue.
It would be interesting if you John or Brother Thomas, or anybody else, could try to verify this.
As I say, Apple Music over Airplay from Apple TV to my Powernode 2i sounds really good and is super easy to operate with the Home app.
Please put in every video a coffee making clip :D
Thank you for making a complicated subject understandable. BTW, I enjoyed the music background behind the B-Roll in the video. It's a nice touch!
I just started using my IPhone 15 Pro connected to my DDC using silver USB connects from MPS( Taiwan company ) using my Iwatch as remote. The results are shockingly way better than my Mac Mini in every respect. That to me is the best solution for playing Apple Music.
Just adjust your settings on your mini…it goes full HiRes
Cf. The audiophilestyle article from a couple of years ago entitled “Apple Music Lossless Mess Part 2: AirPlay” which also goes into this in some detail from a slightly different slant
Good to know! I am still using shairport-sync on my nano-pi with toslink hat and even considered replacing it Wiim pro just to get Airplay 2. I think i will skip this upgrade then :)
John, this is f***king insane. It does explain finally why when I stream Amazon Music or my ripped CD's via AirPlay (I assume AP2) on an iPhone 12 to the Wiim Mini endpoint, the sound is definitely inferior as compared to streaming CD quality from the Wiim Mini Amazon app to the Mini endpoint. I thought I was imagining the lower audio quality. Thanks to you and Brother Thomas!
Thanks for the info John Ndola Brother Thomas. Love the music and opening b roll on this one too!
Good video! Lately I made quite the effort to stream lossless files to my integrated amplifier. I connected an apple tv a1469 with toslink to the amp and put all 16-24 bit 48khz (I read somewhere that 48khz 24bit is the highest an apple tv can handle but brother thomas's table seems to indicate otherwise) music in the music app on my iPhone. For a moment there I thought that all this effort has been futile but my phone shows the finch without circle when selecting the apple tv for music. I looked somewhat further into it and it seems as if this apple tv (happily) does not support airplay 2. I'm surprised at how complicated all of this is and determined not to get a newer apple tv soon.
It seems no streaming service has everything worked out. Roon seems the logical choice if you demand to have the highest verifiable bitrate
I use a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 as my end point and have been trying to get Airplay 2 working. Thanks for video, will stick with Airplay 1.
I wonder if there are others who feel that the more they know about audio the less they want to know. Of course the mystery still lives in the music and no matter how much a musician learns about how Bach composed or how Aphex Twin created beats we remain lost in wonder. Sometimes knowledge even enhances that sense of wonder (particularly when rules and limitations are broken). But the inner workings of Apple’s bits (and blobs)… I almost don’t want to know. Thank you, however, for the information and the great content you create.
Idk if it's new, but you can set hi -res lossless for wifi streaming in settings - music - audio quality. When streaming from my phone to a receiver connected to my hifi, it now tells me it's 24/96 just like when the iPad is connected via usb-c to my dac.
Is that when streaming using Airplay 2?
this is for streaming to the device. So the device itself will receive the full lossless data but when sending it out over airplay 2 it will down convert to 256kbps AAC. Unless you’re sending it over airplay 1 it is lossy.
Please continue this kind of videos....this was so interesting and informative. It's crazy how there is now direct info on this on Apple's website for example. Oh and thank brother Thomas (I hope I wrote his name right HAHAH)
Hello, interesting work but I’m not sure it’s totally sorted out.
How about the other Airplay 2 feature allowing you to take control of the receiver without streaming to it? (As mentioned by an other comment there’s the option at the bottom of your phone’s screen in the video)
In this situation, and from my own experience, the phone is totally removed from the audio path and you could even shut down your phone.
Is Apple streaming lossless music or lossy music from Apple server to the receiver?
Exactly! Very good question
Control Other Speakers & TVs (COST) button.
Great video. when using AirPlay from my iPhone to my macbook on Spotify, it seems to cut the high frequencies above 17khz, so in that case it is definitely not lossless. Would that be Airplay 2?
edit: i know Spotify itself is not lossless, but I'm talking about the transmission process from the phone to the computer being lossless itself.
Isn't Spotify already cutting high frequency sounds way before the track arrives to the phone?
@@absolutium I'm not sure, but i'd think it's not.
Thanks for this guys, much appreciated.
I got fed up with this & AirPlay and now I just use a good USB DDC for my DAC.
Sorted.
John, love your content , great job. (thanks B Thomas!)Kinda, make me wonder why spend $$$$$ on high end gear if the source is typically streaming? If source material is CD or vinyl then one could make a case for a bigger budget for gear. John thanks for helping us sort facts from marketing (hardware and software).
I stream Apple Music from my 2022 iPad via Airplay onto my Anthem AVM 70, Accuphase a45, Martin Logan electrostats. It sounds incredible, couldn't dream for a better sound. Only downside still is that often at about 10 seconds in a track it may skip a bit. Known glitch with Apple Music. Hope they will solve this.
I’m using airplay2 to buchartd gear via an AirPort Express - sound is lovely. My only concern is it could sound lovelier… but I’m in it for the ride, and happy to roll along. I also don’t think this packet theory is correct ❤
It seems it would make more sense if the receiver and media source supports it, to send the URL for the media steam to the receiver, then the sender just basically becomes a remote.
So that means only way how to get Lossless sound from Apple Music iOS app is using wired connection when receiver is AirPlay2?
Hi John…On this one I say…let’s just enjoy our music, however we get it, without putting it under a microscope.
Nonetheless, keep up the great work!!
Found at home in a box an old Apple TV Gen 2 with optical output, connected it to a optical input of my Naim NAC N272, and what a breeze, cd quality from Apple Music and my iTunes stored CDs.
Just connected without screens or nothing else and it appeared, then selected, and bam, there we went...
That's some nice V60 action! Do you have some good local roasters in Berlin?
Thank you, Brother Thomas for your investigation into this - I always wondered. Thank you, Father, Darko for sharing.
Thank goodness for this pious audiophile and his devotion.
Honestly this "bombshell" makes me feel good about buying a roon lifetime subscription instead of switching to iOS. Bless
Interestingly, you can use an iPad as an effective Roon endpoint that plays RAAT streams. Roon, however, is not a solution for Apple Music users.
So this means that despite all the hype re Apple Music lossless, and high res, if you use Airplay from a modern iPhone then you will get similar results from the Spotify app, which will stream the original 320 stream losslessly and the Apple Music app which will stream a 256 version of a lossless track. Go figure!!!
Airport express (the one that looks like white apple tv) got it's Airplay2 update via software. I'm not so sure about HW lvl of Airplay2 you were talking about. Still interesting video. Thanks!
As a test this I sent a tidal stream (Airplay 2 - tick in white circle) via the iOS tidal app from my iPad via Air play to my Lyngdorf TDAI (Airplay 2 according to Lyngdorf website). The Lyngdorf tells me that it is playing at PCM 16 /44 so CD quality - I’m properly confused.
some amount of audio data is permanently discarded when encoding to a lossy file format (in this case, AAC) ... all compressed formats (whether lossy or lossless) have to be decoded at the receiving end and output to a format the DAC can use (in this case, PCM 16/44)
That's because the Tidal App is sending it as Airplay 1 - which is the continuous stream. The app developer can specify AP1 or AP2, regardless of the hardware connection protocol - according to Brother Thomas.
Love this content John and Thank You Bro' Thomas. I'm a little old fashioned and use my Mac as the streaming control around the house, so I now need to see how this affects quality too. 🤣 BTW for any AudioPro owners, the Wiim app also controls their hardware and seems a little more stable when selecting radio content. 👍
Great video and info John and Brother Thomas. I also tried various ways to listen to Apple Music on my setup (BlueSound POWERNODE and Polk Audio Reserve R200 speakers), including streaming from an iPhone, an iPad, a MacBook Pro and an AppleTV. I found that the best quality was directly from an LG tv with the Apple Music app installed (via LG WebOS) and using the HDMI connection.
Or just get an Apple camera cable a top end DAC and wire it into a high quality stereo. Apple Music and Apple Classical via a small iFi ZEN Signature DAC v2 is full HiRes and sounds better than any BlueSound product I’ve demoed. The iFi holds its own with top Rega and Marantz amps into serious speakers such as AE 520s. The Node system is less accurate.
I think the webos LG app on the TV has a really nice interface. Maybe the best. However, note that Apple Music controls like that on a non Apple device, stream only AAC 256. But it still sounds great!
Thanks John and Br Thomas , Very informative. Who would have thought that Airplay 2 would compromise the sound quality? Before (tidal,spotify) connect came along Airplay was the streaming choice for many albeit Airplay 1.
It did not. This is only a situation under specific use while using paid Apple Music streaming. I stream fine ALAC files from a Mac using iTunes Remote on iOS as well at Lightning to USB to DAC to amp.
My first foray into streaming was Tidal on my iPhone 8 to an older Apple TV with optical output. The optical fed a Schiit Modi3. It’s long been replaced by an assortment of streamers the current ones being a Node and WiiM Mini. I use the same DAC on the WiiM
so .. Airplay 1 > Airplay 2 for sound quality. Happy my endpoint (Hiby R3 pro saber currently) is Airplay 1 then.
Only streaming Apple Music (maybe, TBD). But Airplay, for instance, via mac to iTunes Remote on iOS, is fine.
Whats about streaming via Apple TV via HDMI to a TV and from the TVs Toslink to the Amp? I considered quality is way better than via Airplay.
Do you mean streaming directly inside Apple TV's native Apple Music app?
Unless you're using ethernet cable, I think any AppleTV HD and 4K are Airplay2.
If via iPhone + any app using Airplay2 = it might be downsampling to 256kbps AAC. So, Toslink might account for some sonic improvement above Airplay.
Methinks there is also some sonic improvement via optical Toslink and could also be benefitting from your amp/receiver's DAC + implementation.
Per John's comments at the end, if your iPhone Airplay menu shows just a Checkmark = Airplay1.
If iPhone Airplay menu shows a filled in Circle with a Checkmark = Airplay2.
That’s how my system is setup… so is that lossless as it is potentially hard wired from router to play device. But as I instigated the stream from an iPhone or I pad would this be lossy… But I quite often go direct from a Ethernet connected Apple TV OS to a HDMI TV then hard wired to amp? Now as a person has already said… my brain hurts 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
apple tv converts any audio format (except dolby atmos) to pcm 48khz
It is, I do the same. That way your phone is just a remote and the ATV is the streamer and it's streaming in lossless.
What I don’t get is the causal relationship between the type of streaming and compression. You can also have lossy compression with continuous streaming and lossless with burst streaming.
It’s a way to keep multi speakers sync’d and connection more reliable.
While “AirPlay” came out much later, the functionality was there many years earlier with the first generation AirPort Express, it just used iTunes to send the lossless stream. Back in those days you could verify easily if it was sending a true lossless stream because if you had a hdcd dac, the light would light up when receiving a cd rip in Apple Lossless format in iTunes.
Loving the channel. Thanks for all the great insights Sir!
John, any chance you'll get your hands on an iPhone 15 to test its USB C with various DACs?
Not likely at all, sorry.
As soon as the Sonus Fabers got announced I figured those were what you had under the covers in a recent video. Looking forward to that review!
This is why I use AppleTV’s and HomePods for music play back. HomePods just get a handoff from iPhones to play back the music. The AppleTV is just a player of music.
Is Apple TV to HomePod lossless ?
Excelente! This is what is realy helpfull! 5 stars on this review.
awsome, plz ask brother thomas to look at the apple's lighting to 3.5mm jack too, apprantly it contains a DAC.
It’s capable of 24-bit/48kHz lossless with its built in DAC according to Apple support documentation. Its built in amp can power headphones up to 100 Ohms sufficiently with clean output. I’m not ‘brother thomas’ but this info about the adapter has been known for some time.
The most amazing thing to me is.....your 1st gen Express router is still working. Or actually should say it can still be set up. Mine was kicked off my network years ago for being too old so wondering if it works when setting up its own network or maybe European wifi standard makes it easier to still utilize? The rest is just Apple gibberish to me (yes, I understood all of it but...) I'm still disappointed they haven't made a desktop version that passes hi-res when possible like the iOS version. Dammit!
not sure that non continuous data (pulsed) over airplay2 necessarily means it's lossy - if the rate of data transmission is high enough during the pulse then it could provide enough data to be lossless. not saying "brother Thomas" is wrong - just saying the assumption doesn't follow ... unless there is more info that hasn't been conveyed in the video.
'MORE INFO IN THE DESCRIPTION BOX'
@@DarkoAudio thanks for the reply , and thanks for the interesting video. I'm just skeptical by nature.
whathifi saying "Apple Music’s Lossless streams supposedly convert from ALAC (Apple’s lossless codec) into AAC (Apple’s lossy codec) at a pretty lowly 256kbps when transmitted over AirPlay - and therefore not losslessly" ... doesn't really add convincing evidence.
@@greghoughton6189files can be captured and analyzed to determine what they are.
Hornets nest this one! Can see all sorts of fallout coming, great work Brother Thomas!
It is, yes, and it's why I splashed "MORE INFO IN THE DESCRIPTION BOX" on the screen five times during the video.
The delay at start and during play/pause might be a hint on what AirPlay version is used on a particular setup.
LOL: iPhone as sender + Apple Music as APP + Wiim amp as receiver = AAC
Apple earpods + iPhone is still the best combination ever. In terms of effort required vs result attained, its simply unmatched.
I just noticed the quality of Airplay is so much worse streaming to my Powernode, it was not like that last week! :( I’m using bluetooth now which I didn’t use before because Airplay was much better
superb research! thanks
So this is the (primary) reason I plug my iPad into my Cambridge Audio CXN v2 with a lighting to USB cable....
Ok so this is good to know. When I am streaming from my phone to my Sonos arc it’s compressed. However, if I use the Sonos app or my Apple TV (since it’s connected by HDMI) as the source it’s lossless then. Geez I will no longer use airplay now to all my Sonos speakers :(
So what if you do this to one Sonos speaker, let’s call it the Sonos ray via fibre optic, and then turn the other Sonos speakers on using Sonos app, what happens then ?
I think we all know it was compressed for transmission but I do think they do it very well (sounds better to me than BooTooth).
There's a world of difference between compressed and lossy.
Both mp3 and flac are compressed audio formats but mp3 is lossy and flac is not.
@@ridley68 my understanding that flac was not compressed, my misunderstanding then. My statement still stands that aac seems to be a very good way of transmission given its 256
iFi Audio JUST put out a firmware update that makes the Zen Stream an Airplay 2 device which just screwed any Zen Stream users using Airplay from the Apple Music app to the Zen Stream which now compresses the CD and High Res quality down to 256k AAC!!!!! Thanks, Apple!
Hi, I have never used any Apple product but still loved learning more about it. Do you think you could do a video comparing Roon Plex
Amp? I use Plex Amp and have Roon but rarely use it. I control my music with whatever screen is nearest to me. I also use the Sony NW-ZX707.
Thanks John, and thank you Brother Thomas. It really isn't simple, is it? I like multi-room audio, so I was delighted with Airplay 2. I was already running Shairport/Airplay 1 on a Raspberry Pi 3B+ in my lounge room, and I bought the Apple TV 4K for my televsion and stereo in my media room. However, I endured consistent and regular loss of audio from the Apple TV anytime I selected more than one endpoint, anywhere from 3 minutes to half an hour at most. Single endpoint always worked fine.The Shairport never missed a beat. I changed the TV, the amplifier, the phone, the network, all the operating systems and yet the problem persisted for over a year: it looked like the AppleTV was playing the music, but no sound came out. I wasn't alone, some on the apple forums with similar experiences, but no real solution. I found, eventually, that Mike Brady had developed shairport-sync, an Airplay 2 client, and that did the trick: with now only Airplay 2 endpoints, I have consistent multi-room audio and no more drop outs. So mixing that protocol didn't work out so well for me, your mileage may vary.
I never bother playing anything lossless from my phone. I just don’t think I’m going to notice the difference in my car or other noisy environments I use my phone in. (Don’t bother with my work computer either for the same reason.) I also quickly gave up on the AirPort Express as a way to stream from my home computer to my stereo because I had to reboot it daily. Even though I buy a new iPhone every few years I don’t think I’ll ever use Apple Music (except for that time Siri started my free trial without permission).
Thanks for the tip on identifying airplay 1 v 2 with the marks... If I am streaming via my iPhone, I am not concerned about total quality as I'll have my airpods in or be using my Sony headphones on an airplane. If I want to Listen, I stream via my 1st gen AppleTV 4k that has lan connectivity, use the HDMI out, and ultimately ending in the receiver and not using any bluetooth or airplay. You CAN tell a difference. I have an older Denon AVR 1911 and using Mirage 1090I for the fronts and bi-wire them.