Are You Too SLOW To Need Carbon Running Shoes?!
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- čas přidán 8. 12. 2023
- At what pace do carbon super shoes benefit your running? Are better off wearing them in only races, from 5k to Ironman Marathons? What about fast-paced training runs? That got us thinking, would everyone benefit from carbon shoes? It's time to head into the lab!
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I actually wrote about this in my bachelor thesis. We recruited 8 trained, but not endurance trained, young adults. They ran 4x5 minutes at a speed slightly slower than LT2. They ran 2 of the intervals with Nike alphafly and 2 with Nike training shoes. On average the work economy reduced with 2,1% with alphafly compared with the other shoe. But there was a huge variation in how much the shoe helped (0.1-5%). The Participants ran between 9,5 to 14 km/h. The trend was that the carbon shoes gave more advantage at speeds >12-13 km/h then lower speeds.
Thanks so much for sharing this!
Could you share a link to your thesis? I would love to go through it
so i would expect the elite runners to benefit the most... but numbers don't really show this.
What was the training shoe? There is no other Nike shoe with a similar weight and the same foam but without a plate in the current lineup.
12-13 kmh=4'36" to 5'00" min/km
I save my carbon shoes for my longer runs and race day. I am a big guy. I am a slow guy. I do receive speed benefits from the shoes. Sometimes I have to slow myself down because they seem to just spring me along. But one of the biggest benefits that the shoes give me is less stress on my legs. I am significantly less sore the day after a long run. I train in Hoka Mach 5 and race and long run in Hoka Carbon X 3.
Does treadmill vs. outside make a difference? I would think treadmill minimizes the effects of carbon plated shoes since the energy sapping features of outside terrain are removed.
Yes, that makes sense. The treadmill absorbs some of the impact, so the shoes won't give the same return.
This is super useful information, thanks especially for testing this at ‘slower’ speeds too!
Really interesting video. Haven't seen anyone else asses shoes considering the runners weight as a factor, good stuff
Interesting video, as when I was running back in 1980's it was the air cushioning by Nike.
Yet talking to the older vets at the club, they ran in plimsolls in 1960's.
Look how far we come.
I had one runners Nike with air. These carbon plates i guess are from 2010 above started to be popular. I was shocked when i was this year buying new running shoes after 7 years inactive from running. It was new for me. Never heard about
As a road cycliist who swore off running years ago because of foot problems, I was surprised when I went for a random 10k run with friends the other week and found I felt fine the next day. I'd just started wearing Hoka carbon shoes for comfort, but I was pleased to see that I might be able to run again. as shoe technology has improved so much of late
I wish they were around when I was racing IRONMAN and marathons 20 years ago.
Many people still say "the carbon plate propels you forward". Scientists claim the reason carbon plated running shoes are faster, is because of the super foam. The plates mission is to offer structure in the thick layer of very cushy foam
I thought the plates also help compress all the foam more evenly and catch all the decompressing energy so you get a more efficient energy return over you're entire foot
You know nothing about running
@@lean2281 You, and many others, might have much more knowledge than me. But I still run, and I have great joy of it! I guess 38.15 on a 10000 meter when 53 years old and only running around 25 km per week is ok
I switched to Hoka Carbon X from Hoka Mach 5 for all of my road running -- mainly for injury prevention. I'm prone to plantar fasciitis and achilles tendonitis, and I've found that the Carbon X makes a significant difference for reducing the frequency and severity of foot hot spots,
I’m a slow runner but I run my two latest Ironman in carbon shoes. Maybe they didn’t gave me faster splits but they made me have less pain. That means you run more and than it will be one better result in the end.
It is not about the plate.
It is the soft foam that just protects your legs when you run 2 double threshold days and everyday you run an easy run (obviously not in carbon a GA1 run)
You guys do the best videos. As a pretty average runner myself, I've been wondering this for a while. I use carbon plated shoes for races, but sometimes wonder if the benefit is all in my head and a more ordinary pair would do the same for me (and save me significant money!)
My experience of using a carbon plate shoe is that I can run 6 days a week and have significantly higher mileage totals, without injury. This is at low speed. I also found that for faster speeds you have to learn how the shoe works and alter your stride to gain the most response. The faster you go the better the ride. So softness for one aspect and the technical advantage from the plate for the other aspect. And, bonus, no black toes......
Really nice video. It would have been nice to explain how the RER was built
Besides teh speed advantage the part the plays the MOST is the recovery. Hoka x3 are top class shoes
Very interesting topic! And not at all talked about enough by all those people making shoe reviews!
The most important aspect is that the shoes are comfortable. Last year I ended up using my training shoes for my races, as I realised that I am faster in them because of the comfort they give me. Now I got two pairs of those, one for training and one for race day. I dont want to name them here as I think its a very individual thing.
Thanks for the content, but besides speed and oxygen consumptio, what is about fatigue and recovery. Would it not be beneficial also to wear Carbon race shoes at slower Pace for Marathonsin the end of an Ironman to do not fatigue as quickly? Or even use them for hard training workouts and may have improved recovery? #gtncoachescorner
Personally, I feel you should compare the echos with a more average trainer, the cloudmonster is an everyday trainer but I found its one of the most propulsive non-CFP shoes on the market due to their rigid speedboard tech which is basicly a slower carbon plate.
Curious about how weight plays a factor, you mention there is less foam per kg, however my theory (and thats all it is), is a heavier runner is able to compress the plate to the same amount as a lighter runner, but at a slower speed, so theoretically the heavier runner will get benefits over a wider range of paces.
Thoughts?
Overall, the conclusion is consistent with my personal experience. If you track run data with a sports watch, look at that data carefully to compare runs in carbon plated vs. non-plated shoes. For me, the data is crystal clear. Wear the carbon shoes at all distances when racing. I have two different carbon plated shoes. One I use for ironman distance races and one for shorter distance races. The difference between the shoes is mainly weight, but there is a difference in cushioning and "spring" too. I am a lighter athlete and have a neutral/mid-foot strike with more forefoot at faster paces.
With shoes like the NB SC Trainer v2 and the Prime X Strung, I wonder if super trainers might be better for slow runners than super race shoes. Both have carbon, both have super foams. But light weight vs more cushion when you are out there for 3.5-5 hours would likely shift the value of cushion vs weight.
I have a dodgy knee. Carbon plated shoes help me because of the cushioning, and thats at all speeds, including mega-slow.
How about actual finish time difference? This is perhaps more important to know. If it's 5min faster for a marathon I might consider investing on a super shoe. 10s faster? Maybe not.
I’d be interested in this too, for all speeds of runner.
Unfortunately this is impossible to measure, as we cannot do exactly the same race in two different shoes - too many factors change from one race to another, even on the same course. And better economy doesn't necessarliy mean speed gains. Also, as we saw in our tests, the shoes will have different effects for different athletes too. But hopefully we've given some guidance and more info before you decide to invest in a 'supershoe'...
@@jamescunnamaGTN see? know one can really tell how much faster one can really run.
dennis kimetto did a 2:02:57 h marathon already in 2014 without "supershoes".
Great study, I mean I always guessed there’s no benefit if you’re running a 9-10 min mile. So I guess I was wrong, and it’s the same question, is the cost worth the time saved to you.
Very good information. I have been thinking of my next pair of shoes and am leaning to the carbon ones. It is still going to be based on fitness in the end.
you won`t fail if you choose for fitness shoes like voleyball shoe or footbal indoor shoe. For Fitneess you don`t need foam. Also will do a great job neutral treking random shoes adidas with a bit harder foam for 40 $. In gym it is crucial to feel fully control about your ground contraction
Thanks for including Phil and the honest conclusion!!
I have tested my carbon plated shoes vs non carbon plated but sill fast shoes on the track: Kiprun KD900X vs Hoka Rincon 3. The Kipruns are definitely faster. I did 4 x 1000m @ 4:00 Min / Km for this test on separate days. My heart rate was lower and it felt easier on the carbon plated shoe. I’ve done this same session several times since to rule out variability from one session to another. Still maybe for a marathon I’d still go for the Hoka and for shorter distances the Kiprun.
Kiprun are crap for racers
I'm an avid user of carbon shoes for races only for the reasons stated in the vid, having said that I decided to use my training shoes for my last Ironman as they were nice and worn in for the long haul! Any gains that may of been made from wearing carbon shoes would of been lost as I waddled through the aid stations 🤣
Disc rear wheels very similar issue for slower riders
For me it was quite spectacular (and I'm not even using one with a carbonplate), I went almost 2" per km faster than my fastest training on the same course and that was a year before when I was training more. But a better comparison is the that I went more than 12" faster per km than the week before all with a little lower heart rate! I used a Nike Pegasus 39 before and now I'm using the Saucony Endorphin Speed 3!
12 inches per km faster?
@@TheSgkerr123you give them an inch and they take a foot every Km
Interesting comparison. But also would like to answer, do carbon plated shows hold their shape for longer, effectly making them last for mileage assuming the outsole lasts forever graphene outsole maybe 😊
Very interesting video. I’m doing around 2000km per year running. Which ends up making running an expensive part of triathlons. Is there a shoe you would recommend for my z1/z2 runs to that allows to get more mileage in before needing to replace them? TIA
The ASICS nimbus 25 are mega comfortable, perfect for easy runs and mine are still great after 600 miles.
Very interesting results but more intriguing would be results from a larger sample size.
This will be my 25 consecutive year participating in an Ironman and for the first 20+ years no consideration given a super shoe. Always strong in swimming and cycling but could not get under 4:20 in the marathon.
After years of frustration trying everything, train more on running fitness, slow down on bike segment with no improvement.
It wasn’t until I got my hands on a pair of Hoka Rocket x2 that I broke 4 hour, 2023 3:56:19. As we are all aware any endurance event comes down to experience and mental acuity, leaving roughly 10% physical.
I believed the super shoe would make me faster and that mindset came to fruition.
I’m not brand loyal and the only Hoka shoe I had is the Rocket x2. Until just this week picked up a pair of Hoka Mach 6. Still in the box.
In my shoe rotation of six trainers no two from same manufacturer.
Perhaps I’ll invest in another plated shoe but nothing high stack.
Makes me wonder what the optimum weight of athlete is for the thickness of carbon plate. Would this make a difference and will we see future generations of carbon plate shoe take this into account?
Very interesting but while the oxygen consumption benefits are clear, what do you think about the added impact on the tendons and muscles from these high energy return shoes? And therefore the potential for injuries in people who don't have the muscle tone of elite runners? Speaking for myself, I really don't understand the tendency to increase stack height, thereby reducing kinetic return, only to add a carbon plate back in. I much prefer a minimal shoe and my own biomechanics for the energy return. Obviously I'm not an elite runner chasing sponsors and records 😂 thanks for a great video topic!
The stack helps reduce lost energy (kinetic return). However, that lacks stability and restricts the ball of the toe in the gait cycle, so requires a rocker and a plate to add stability. Over long distance, the cumulate reduction in fatigue helps an athlete maintain an effort, rather than drop off which results in a faster completion time.
I get a huge benefit from them, I'm talking maybe 30 seconds per km. Strangely perhaps I'm not a fast runner, the opposite actually, quite a slow one, I'm talking over 7min/km type speed in an ironman. I think the advantage comes from how you run. In spite of being a slow runner, I am a mid/forefoot runner and I think this is where the advantage lies in these shoes.
Most of what I've found on the internet about carbon plated shoes seems to be made on the assumption you're running at a constant speed for the duration of your event. Commonly it's suggested the carbon plated shoes provide more assistance for faster speeds. What I'm wondering about is a more typical scenario for many age group triathletes such as myself. We don't generally run at a constant speed for the duration of the run. More often we run until we can't run anymore, walk for a period, and maybe run periodically after that. My question is does a carbon plated shoe save enough energy, and/or strain on your body to enable you to run more and walk less?
What about on the trail?
Heather, was it fun meeting Eddie Redmayne's stunt double? Was he nice IRL?
We are all looking for better running economy from the carbon plated shoe) or any shoe for that matter). That should translate to faster speeds but running at the same speeds as trainers with lower HR and O2 consumption is what super shoes deliver. IF YOU ARE A RESPONDER. Slower runners just have more efficiency to gain than elites. I've seen up to 13% gain in economy with VF 3 over a marathon.
My take is if a shoe gives you 2% a faster runners 2% will be more than a slower runners. But, it’s still beneficial to the slower runner who ends up running a longer time on a course of the same distance than the faster runner.
This had a lot of potential but unfortunately it’s unreliable data. You should really just do the video again but change the order and see what happens. Do all three and not just James.
But the Cloudmonster has a plate too
And compared to regular racing flats?
Stability trainers forever.
Bought a pair- hideous... as specific to fast running only (tempo/ speed session and racing).
The warmup and cool down of a tempo / speed sessions are uncomfortable, particularly the cool down.
I have carbon shoes and run slow. Not only are they not helpful, I like them less than my non-carbon shoes of identical style.
Trek and treadmill are different moment; road supposed to be relevant
"Easy pace of 5:15 min/km" - RIP :(
hahahaha the last joke ....
Translation: for your average person like myself who's only doing about 3-7 mile runs at a pace between 7-11 minutes per mile, carbon shoes won't offer much and are expensive. With that said...I'm still probably going to buy the Hoka Skyward X!!! hahahahahahaha
She needs to take a break before trying other shoes
I'm too slow and too poor for carbon shoes fml
Money saved! Imagine 300 dollars for a pair of shoes. You're not even a "professional" much more Training to become one. You're an Average JOE/JANE who's just been training for a long time. That's all REALISTICALLY.
Hey, if you want to artificially improve your running speed by making use of 'mechanical-doping' then I don't see why everyone shouldn't be allowed to!! Just don't forget to add that 'mental-asterisk *' against all your shiny new PB's 😛😁
Not sure if I should add the '/s' on the end (there's definitely sarcasm in my comment... but part of me also wishes all my old PB's hadn't been somewhat 'invalidated' by the modern 'super-shoes' 😟)