Massive WEDI Shower FAILURE (Done by Certified Installer) -- Warranty Claim DENIED
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- čas přidán 31. 10. 2019
- I was contacted by a homeowner to come out and look at his WEDI shower, that was built in 2007 by a certified WEDI installer. The company that performed the work went out of business since then. They were a medium size tile installation company that did residential new construction (track homes) and commercial work.
So the homeowner contacted a tile contractor who used to work for that company before it went out of business. Through the contractor, WEDI was contacted. They sent out a technician who gathered information, they sent it back to WEDI, and the warranty claim was denied.
See below for an explanation of the denied claim:
"....The shower was subject to movement, explaining perimeter and generally grout cracks, also at the bench. Such structural movement particularly destroys weak seals such as those present at the bench. This leads to water exposure of the bench construction, and the floor. Such exposure causes not only rot, but increases movement to an extreme level, amplifying the original issues."
Please let me know if anyone else has seen or heard of failures such as this. The more information that is out there, the better we can help our fellow tile installers decide for themselves what is the best method to use.
Leave your comments in the section below. Please try to be helpful, even if you do not agree with me. I am ok leaving negative comments up as long as they are helpful in any way. - Zábava
Before you comment that the wrong sealant was used, please understand that Wedi was using Sikaflex polyurethane as the approved sealant at the time of this install. I have proof from archived websites that explain it in detail in this video: czcams.com/video/_skYsjFBnPM/video.html. The sealant they now use use is a silane based sealant similar to kerdi-fix, which performs much better in wet applications. Important to note that Sikaflex polyurethane has a manufacturer one year warranty.
The caulking has a 1 year warranty but the shower has 15? 🤷♂️
My understanding is any polyurethane sealant is used for expansion joints? In EXTERNAL building applications amd definitely not in internal wet areas. That’s the case in Australia where I am, in showers we use silicone not polyurethane but silicone is only used to seal junction joints in tile applications where the floor meets the wall. You absolutely need a one piece system of waterproofing from floor to wall transition with no overlapping of two separate materials but this doesn’t even have that! Like Isaac says the complete waterproofing of floor to wall joint is reliant on caulking! This is madness! This is all wedi’s fault 100% the install looks beautiful to me he just followed wedi’s instructions
2021 Catalog: "Wedi Joint Sealant is Polyisocyanates and PVC free, and a zero VOC sealant." I'm with you...nothing magic in a caulking tube except 3M 5200.
Thanks for the vid TileCoach.
I live in New Zealand and repairing leaking tile showers make up 50% of my work.I have used ardex wpm 001 for 25 years always over sand and cement screeds. Never had one leak.... famous last words.Companies have tried to reinvent the wheel for faster installs etc.Worst one is the Atlantis system where you tile over a pvc tray with mapei epoxy.Wont tile them as a couple I did years ago .The tiles delaminated...as for the crappy waterproofing stick on butynol for the walls I waterproofed over the top to be sure and meshed the bottom join
I am a tile contractor in Florida. I had a failure with Wedi and they denied my claim. This was on my own house. The gray cement like material delaminated off the blue closed cell foam on my shower pan causing the pan to become spongy. Wedi is a terrible company and will never back there product they will always blame it on the installer or some other factor. I am so glad to have seen this video. Thanks
Yep, it could be a "lifetime" warranty and still wouldn't matter cause the MO is deny all claims. The only repercussion the homeowner would has is to sue the mega corporation.
Pedro Escarfullery *you’re
Pedro Escarfullery or ‘your *lion’ 🤷🏻♂️
@Pedro Escarfullery No it's true.
1surfercross, I've never used WEDI, but can vouch for them that sadly the vast majority of the times any system fail is due to the installer, and not the product. I have researched WEDI and would feel confident giving a lifetime warranty on the installation and product, but should disclose that I have been renovating multi-million dollar homes for 30 years. Also- no way would I trust 99% of the contractors that are hired from craigslist, or Angie's List the classifieds etc. to complete a walk-in shower install start to finish. I know better than to do something like that :)
The extreme amount and severity of the wood rot means the water leak did not just did not start recently, more likely it's been leaking for several years. Probably started when the shower was still quite new.
The house rotted around the shower
I was just doing my research to perform my own shower re-tile and came across your video. Thank goodness I did. After seeing a professional job go horribly wrong, even after following all of the installation procedures set by the manufacturer, I have chosen to go with a different product. Thank you for your videos and willingness to educate us. God bless.
Sir Isaac. You are like a CSI of shower failures. Love what you do
Yeah, we need his analysis, its very important. I mean the damage in this poor dudes shower is scary, all the way to the joist.
In the Uk most of the wet room systems we use require you to build a solid frame under the floor as minimum so that all of the outer edges of the “tray” are supported. There appears to be no addition framing installed in this video to give additional support for the wedi shower tray
Yes sir Isaac, I have been in the business for over 37 years and I still install the old school way. Rubber membrane and real mud. I have seen all the schutler and wedi systems at the trade shows and never bought into it. All these guys been in business for 10 years haven't had any issues with these products. All of a sudden 11 years later this guys floor is completely rotten and could have been termite infested and then some. Thanks for the video brother and keep educating the world. Al from Maryland
Termites my ass. That is dry rot from years and years of water intrusion.
I install wedi and hydroblock. It's a good system if you know how to install it correctly.
I think Wedi is great for the walls and benches, but after watching this, I might not use it for a shower pan.
If you learn anything from Issac's videos, it's this: Build the shower like a roof exposed to daily thunderstorms.
Real tile setters like myself know water is your biggest enemy
Or just don’t listen to this dude. One of the two
Right that makes sense everytime, every job
Actually, that's true. If you do the math, a residential shower gets more "rain" than any place on Earth.
@@ironwooddesigns9532
Le bois et l'eau ça fait pas bon ménage je comprends pas vous construisez pas en béton en Amérique
Wow! If you described to me as a concept of permanent waterproofing a bead of caulk between two layers of foam I'd be skeptical at best. I'm shocked that this was a popular shower pan practice. Common sense should always prevail. You've raised some questions in my mind about the 24hr test as well. Well done!!
I agree 100% that's why Wedi sealant works because it is not caulk.
Every time I see these videos I appreciate my generic one piece drop in shower/tub more and more
I'm a tile setter and I get calls about stuff like this all the time.
Pedro Escarfullery yeah because he don’t install that junk!
Most houses I have seen in PA have the cast iron or more often plastic shower base and then ceramic tile walls. The bottom is one solid piece and so does not have these issues. I cannot figure out why these people in California go for these tiled shower bases with so much work, expense and problems.
@Pedro Escarfullery You're telling people they sound stupid, when your grammar is shit. Learn how to type pendejo.
Pedro Escarfullery where’s you’re punctuations since your so smart you idiot?
Thank you for this video. As you took things apart I knew exactly where the water went. I agree why would you ever have so little protection from water getting thru. Once again so valuable to see these things for me. I love to learn thanks Isaac
I've been tiling for 30 years and Appreciate your education of all things tile you show. Including your failures . There is many videos showing incorrect installation . And your education helps people understand the proper way . Also various methods done incorrectly . Keep up the good work !!
I know tile shower bases can be great but that depends more heavily on the installer. I went with cast iron for the shower base because it’s hard to mess that up 😅
I'll stick with my Oatey pvc 40 mil liner in the pan, overlapped by 6 mil plastic on the studs. I sleep good at night.
Right! :)...I love that system...Tile guy for over 30 years...Do you preslope?
@@godbluffvdgg Yes I always preslope. Do you put cheese wiz on your cheese steaks? I always preferred marinara.
@@Hodmokrin :)...I ask because that SalTile guy, that has a channel on here says he doesn't do it and you don't need it...I preslope too AND I aqua seal the pre and the wet bed...That at least gives me the tail light warrantee...:)...And cheese steaks get Provolone...Sharp if they got.. it...but if you've had a few beers; wiz is the most awesome thing in the world...:
@Carleton Rutherford you're right God forbid they try to do as mud pan. That's why we make the big bucks 😉
How can you sleep at night knowingly installing septic tanks under your client's feet.
When I started using the Wedi system about 10 years ago the sealant that was recommended was made by Sika, the tube said Sikaflex, it was a grey ureathane sealant. It was also solvent based (mineral spirit cleanup). A few wears later the tubes were marked "WEDI" but the sealant was still grey.
It could be possible the installer used the wrong sealant (maybe water based) To save some money.
Almost all of the Wedi pans I installed needed to be cut down to fit the drain/opening layout.
That required a new rabbit to be cut into the priemeter of the pan.
that rabbit was always filled with sealant before the wall panel went in, making sure that the sealant flowed up and out onto the pan and wall board, then another bead was applied and troweled with the corner trowel.
I don't know if Sikaflex was white before 2011, but the first time I used a ureathane sealant ( around 2010 solvent based) it was grey.
I am thinking the installer used the wrong sealant to start with.
+1 the sealant should be grey.
Now this might just be my perspective - but my first thought is that the structure probably isn't up to snuff for a tiled shower. The joist bay that you are sitting in is MASSIVE and although the i-joists are rated for those spaces at spans - under bathrooms, I always preferred to see them cut the spacing down one level in order to give the floor more stiffness (24" to 19.2", 19.2" to 16", 16" to 12"...). It is one thing to deal with bouncy floors under tile in a kitchen - but in a bathroom it will cost tens of thousand of dollars out of pocket for something that a builder looking to cheap out on a few i-joists could have solved when the house was in framing.
Granted, the tile guy should have said nope as well. Might not like the decision that WEDI came to, but just seeing that and having been in a few hundred houses over the years with similar structures...I wouldn't trust much other then a fiberglass drop in on them.
Very nice video! Educational, honest and informative. Your way to humble dude! You are the definition of professional. 👍👍
I've never installed Wedi or any foam shower and thanks to this video, I never will. Thanks for sharing!
I am glad I saw this. My wife and we’re thinking of installing a WEDI system. Great video, thanks.
Your videos are extremely helpful I do some tile work among other things in the Northeast very grateful for your time and efforts with all of this
Issac -- You have such a great smile but we rarely see it. You are so professional.
Its easy to not clean the rabbet cuts during prep. It gets pretty messy and then just put sealant in there. It's got to be clean.
I would be hesitant to say that this is a failure because of the manufacturer. I'm pretty sure they didn't get enough coverage when they adhered the pan to the subfloor and created a hollow space, which caused the pan to deflect.
The project doesn't look prepped as well as it could've been either
I am a Wedi Pro installer and a CTI.
Great videos! Keep it up!
I appreciate the details you guys get into and it only helps all of us in our industry. Good work gentleman thumbs up 👍
Thanks I was seriously considering using Wedi system in my bathroom remodel this coming summer. I definitely agree with what your saying, on the butt joint and not holding. Thanks again!
I've been doing this kind of work for 30 years that whole system looks Shawty to me
I'm curious to know if anyone has ever had their labor cost covered under warranty with a faulty shower claim. A couple of bags of mud is nothing to the cost of this repair.
I’m a UK bathroom installer. I won’t do tiled shower pans on timber floors. I’ve done quite a few over the years but I’ve had 2 that have failed, both on timber floors. All the ones I’ve done on concrete/solid floors are fine.
The problem with these systems is it only takes 1 cracked grout joint from a bit of movement and the water gets in.
If the waterproofing is sound then water sits under the tiles and saturates the entire mortar bed eventually leading to mould growing out of the grout joints.
If the waterproofing isn’t sound then the water has somewhere to go and just causes major wood rot.
I don’t know why you guys in the US are so dead set on tiled pans when you can get solid stone effect shower trays that feel and look amazing. Best thing of all is they can’t fail.
Amazing Isaac Ostrum, you are truly a professional in every aspect. You and your personal character truly reflects on your desire to do great work, your dead ass honest! This is coming from a person, with 35 years in the field of construction. Mad respect !
Keep upsetting them. Your videos are great. The corners and edges definantly leaked. No water made it past the wedi to the Sheetrock. That proves it decent waterproofing. But the chain is only as good as the weakest link.
I never trusted those caulk joints, and am quite paranoid about my installs. Thank you for sharing. I am not a bit surprised. Excellent point about the soft foam pans, as well. That includes Schluter.
I think they only get soft after being wet from a leak, is that right? Schluter setup is much better than Wedi at least with Kerdiband on all your 90 degree angles-vertical and horizontal.
My tile guy is dead set against foam pan products. His experience is that over time, foam pans breakdown depending on how heavy they are used. For example, if it's the main shower for a family of 4-5, a foam based pan will likely fail within 8-10 years. That's approximately 140 showers a month, or 1,680 in a year. Anyway you look at it, that's a lot of compression/decompression of the foam board even if the average compression is less than 32nd of an inch...over time as the foam breaks down, failure is a certainty.
I love your analysis! You are true professional!
Another great video. This is my issue with not only wedi but some liquids as shower pans as well. You really need a monolithic transition floor to wall. Not just a sealant or topical membrane. Shifting and settling are a real things in all parts of the country.
1:51 you know you wanted to laugh
Kory Sarnelli 😂😂😂😂😂 I was looking for a comment about this
Haha I knew I'd find this comment
Scrolled to comments immediately after this😂
@@docwoodmd1870 lol
Finally someone said something! Everyone else are all boring and professional-soundin
Thank you for making this video. I've installed a few of these but have switched back to mortar pans with bonding flange drains and sheet membranes after noticing the foam pans would dent easily when unprotected. I would use the cardboard from the pan box and a piece of 2 inch rigid foamboard to work off of only exposing the pan prior to floor tiling. Was curious about joist spacing and subfloor thickness of this shower and whether the joist depth and connections are rated for seismic activty as you said. Seems like common sense to beef up load carrying capacities of floor system and make current connections between framing members before putting 1/2 ton of mortar and tile on top of them. Excess movement will case failure in most sytems over time. The Wedi sealant Ive been supplied with is a grey modified polyurethane and I learned after bedding joints to spread a 1/2 inch bead with a plastic wing tool from 1 1/2 to 2 inches on both sides of inside corners 2 times. These two steps are supposed to strengthen the joint but apparently this is not the case. Your work here has proven to be very sobering indeed. Much appreciated.
Wouldn't the easy solution be, to use wedi subliner dry tape on the permiter of the base and corners?
I have been installing Wedi and Schluter products as a professional for many years, both companies have great products for creating waterproof showers. Like anything else in life, if the product is not used correctly you will have problems. Adhesives and sealants need to be used properly, trying to save money by using an opened tube you had kicking around the back of your van for a few weeks is not a good idea, here in southern Ontario Canada extreme cold for installing these products during winter months can also cause issues. I like the Wedi panels for the walls because they are more rigid than the Kerdi board, but still easy to cut with a utility knife. I have never used the pre-made shower pans from either company as I find them to be too soft for my liking. As most of my work is custom, I like to create my shower pans the old fashioned way using sand and cement mix. However, I do use the Schulter drain system and install waterproofing ABOVE the concrete base with Schulter Kerdi-DS membrane and Kerdi-Band and Kerdi-Kereck-F corners to seal around the perimeter of the base and Wedi wall panels using good quality Kiesel Thinset for all of my installations. Unfortunately for this home owner, my guess is that Wedi did not warranty because they found that the product was not installed correctly.
I agree. I posted a comment above regarding my installation. I also used Schluter profiles for the wall to floor and wall to wall joints with no problems in 14 years. I do have the shower tray and that's been fine. Gets used every single day.
Just because someone has a license, that doesn't mean shit.
Amen, and even if it was inspected, that doesn't mean squat either (I'm only 7 min into the video, can't wait to see the actual fail). So many inspectors are useless. I did a major addition to my house. We waited for 2 weeks for the inspector to come out to check our footings. The day he comes out, it's been raining for 3 days straight. It's still raining. So he fails us for "water in the footings". No $hit sherlock.
@@cgilleybsw What state are you in?
1974jrod Totally true. It only means over priced. I use a lot of handymen one thing is they know is they do not know everything. So they research and try hard to do good work. Contractors are just always rushing through.
Very true. I had another "certified" electrical contractor call me out on two different jobs he was unable to do. First was a loose neutral that took me all of an hour to diagnose, after tracing every wire in the control panel to make a schematic of the system to work from. The second was a job where he hooked up a 3 phase generator 120/240v (has a high leg - one phase is 208 volts to ground). He didn't use a volt meter to verify where to terminate the high leg, and fried every 120v device on the service. His remark to me, was "didn't smell like a high leg". I am also a licensed wastewater operator, and could regale you for hours with horror stories of stuff I've seen other licensed operators do. In Florida, our correctional institutions have inmates learning to operate, which is a good thing, in that we are giving them a trade to hopefully stay out of prison. The problem is that we have one government employee "teaching" or "supervising" them. Most of these guys are generally bottom dwellers for license holders. My take is that we, as a society, rely on the government to "certify" someone's ability. The same institution that screws up almost everything they touch. Honestly look at the majority of public servants and see that most of them only work there because they lack the ability to maintain employment in the private sector (obviously there are exceptions to every rule so don't get your panties in a wad if you are a public servant who isn't a bottom dweller). If you truly want to get someone who knows what they are doing you need to: 1. Educate yourself on the task you are asking them to perform 2. Ask them lots of questions and if they can't answer them from your research, back away. 3. I prefer old school methods primarily because the new stuff has not been tried and tested as is demonstrated in this video. 4. Ask for references and actually follow up on them. If they are reputable, they will have no issues with you talking to their other clients. The onus on the outcome of the job is squarely on the shoulders of the person who hires them.
@@mikewhite9818 On behalf of the handyman, (not all, but many) do really good work, and often the right way, they just don't have a license, but could if they pursued their skills. I say this because I have had the contractor fail (like you mentioned- "rushing through") and the handyman come fix it and clean it up.
Again, congrats for the info, I’m a certified wedi installer , I agreed that won’t look like the sealants that we use today, but after 12 year we don’t know if will still being gray. I still using the rubber liner and pre slope and wedi just on the walls. Sucks to be the homeowner. Keep up with the good work.
How would you recommend someone tie in a repair for a severely failed pan? The former owners of our house had a Wedi shower installed around 12-15 years ago which we just had fail. We have no idea who the installer was - and it's probably a good thing because this failure was due to extreme negligence on the installer's part. The wall was cut too short and tried to use wedi urethane to make up the difference. We had an inch and a half thick rope of wedi urethane around the base of the shower. He also 'adapted' the plumbing on the drain and self-modified wedi parts by slicing off everything and using a rope of caulking the size of my thumb to attach the wedi drain to the P trap....with some other weirdness mixed in for good measure.
We have one course of tile removed and the floor too. I just want the future work to be correct. What do I need to watch out for or insist that my contractor does?
Andrea Wolf I’m sorry to tell you but if you want to be fixed correctly, just re-do the whole shower, repair will always be a repair, plus nobody will give you any kind of warranty on a repair, or at least I will not. Good luck and I’m sorry about the bad installer.
Another great video, sir. Let the truth reveal itself, we are all learning.
I wish isaac would use his energy to speak out other truths. Like flat earth. Is the earth flat or round? It's always appeared flat to me.
Great Video Isaac, I’m in the UK and just installed a Wedi pan. In the UK instructions it doesn’t mention at all to to do a rebate in pan if putting tile backer boards around it what you do get is a sealing kit made from two components like Kerdi Coll that is available in the UK for my safety I’ve also pre sealed the joints with a product called C-Tec CT1 before using the wedi sealing kit. Time will tell if it fails.
Excellent Info. I love how you give. your live commentary as you go.
110% agree with your assessment on where and how the failure occurred. Never never never rely on sealant of any kind as waterproofing.
GREAT job Isaac!
Eric, please don't encourage the misinformed. "Never rely on a sealant" is like saying never rely on a roof to keep you dry or never rely on a fire to keep you warm. You do realize there are specialty products on the market that are perfectly capable of making water and airtight gaskets for many decades? After 30 years of home renovations, my best advice: There's a whole lot of different stuff you can do- you just have to know what you are doing ;)
Rick the Swift You are right about needing to know what you are doing and with over 25 years of tile and stone installation experience myself. Waterproofing systems are designed to eliminate water penetration to the substrate (just like on a roof). If any part fails, it fails, and the sealants is ALWAYS the weakest part.
@@ericrogers9253 I would agree that sealants are often the weakest link in the chain. But. This is also the case with head gaskets and valve gaskets in modern and vintage automobiles- many of which still hold up perfectly after many years of thoughtful maintenance. It also helps in such cases that the system was usually designed by an experienced engineer, being guided by decades of data, and monitored by strict regulations, rather than someone who may or may not have a high school diploma or GED, and who may have just watched a DIY video at Home Depot, or CZcams before placing a bid on a project. Not that the lack of certification disqualifies someone from being informed- just saying, homeowners (HO's) often will hire the most affordable contractors and the one who lives closest to the project (IOW a neighbor) which was likely the case here.
@@Rick-the-Swift it's funny (to me) you mentioned head gasket. Just had my head gaskets replaced on my truck, not a cheap fix (since the warrantee guy denied the claim). I sure wish they made things to last like they use too.
I use and love the wedi boards. But for pans I either sand pack my own or use the Schluter foam pan with a double layer of the Kerdi. Kerdi Band then wraps up onto the Wedi wall, then Redguard on the seams.
Redguard fails a lot as well. I only use it as a crack surpressant. I have been using chloralloy and mudpacking the shower floor for thirty years with no failures. Recently I have had customers who insist on the Schluter system and I have reservations about using styrofoam on the floor. I've done a few that way, but after seeing this debacle I'm only doing it old school.
@@jonm9538 I would love to see a video of how you do a proper shower floor. What is chloralloy? I have to redo a shower. Thanks.
hI iSSAC
Thanks this video. I have a great deal of experience with this product and have made a lot of videos showing how to install this board. I can state categorically that his is not a product failure. The rebate (rabbit) cut is not required and neither is the caulking. The joint should be sealed with a neoprene flexible tape that will give you a perfect water seal. This will cope with movement and that is why it is specified. The contractor is out of business so, the homeowner needs to go back to the terms of the warranty. It will not fail if it is done properly so the fault lies with the installer. I agree that better training is required but I reckon the installer was trying to save $40,00 on the taoe.
Absolutely right Roger. I did my bathroom using wefi 14 years ago and it's as good as the day I installed it. I posted a comment here months ago to which someone's just replied and noticed your comment.
Skill Builder I agree that the installer totally screwed up but I am a WEDI certified installer and just went to the secondary certification in Chicago last year. You are I correct. They do want the rabbet cut now but they want you to block in behind (Between the studs) and put a massive bead in that channel. That way when you push it down it should squeeze out a good bit and then you run the Wedi corner knife on that seam and let it dry. Once it’s dry you go back in with the sealant and run a new bead and again use the knife to get it sitting in the crease well. It’s what they call their double barrier system.
The contractor was "certified" by the manufacturer, and the manufacturer refuses to back the warranty that mandates installation by the "certified" installer. Basically, the warranty and certification are absolutely worthless.
@@kassklothes so everyone that’s certified does it the way they were taught? Come on now. Let’s me logical. It was a bad contractor. It’s quite obvious
@@kassklothes The problem is even though the installer is certified he obviously missed a few steps. Also I’ve never heard of not using the rabbits.
Im investigating one right now. I have verified its not the plumbing. I am advising they get a Tile Contractor to investigate the Wedi install.
It seems to me that there is not enough attention in these Wedi systems to make sure the water that gets below the tile layer is able to flow to the drain.
Thanks for showing this, I was going to get a system for a walk-in shower but I think I'll just do it the old fashion way, motor bed.
Hi Isaac... I used Wedi sealant recently and also about 10 years ago. I can tell you for sure it's not white. It's a medium dark gray. That's not Wedi sealant and that channel should be packed with sealant. Due to a mistake on the first job years ago, I had to pull a piece of the board away where two boards are sealed together. Holy shit, that stuff sticks to the foam like crazy. It rips the foam apart. I feel confident in saying that is not Wedi's sealant and it looks more like they used some caulk from Lowes.
I agree
I concur, that's not WEDI sealant. Plus its an improper install, you are supposed to hit each seam/joint with another thick bead of caulk and trowel it out.Probably ran out and got impatient and used whatever. WEDI sealant has incredible tenacity in sticking to the board.
I also agree that the sealant used in my Wedi shower 10 years ago was not white it was a grey color as described above. In addition to joining all joints with Wedi sealant I also know the installer applied Wedi sealant to the surface of all joints and troweled them flat.
I Agree also.
Yeah. This is the cause. Wasn't wedi sealant, plus they only did the inside bead. It pulled away from the foam side but stuck to the cement side. The install might have worked if they applied the second bead to the face and trowled it out to 3/4 inch up the wall and horizontally across pan. That caulk stuck plenty good to the cement.
Surprised the wedi rep didn't catch that.
I get it. That joint sealant can be $20 a tube when some exterior osi is $8. Its good enough to get you passed the inspection.
Wedi sealant is Grey and is a proven product. In your Video you mentioned the caulk is wht. Proof the builder did not use correct sealant. Builder/ installer is liable...
I somewhat agree with you, the clock that he showed was white I'm not had any problems with wedi installations what's the weather at waterproof and water test every shower pan but after 10 or 11 years I would assume that especially living in California with wood being underneath and not a concrete slab oh, I would assume that there would be a lot of Shifting
100% correct…wedi sealant is grey, not white, and is proprietary. It must be used with their systems to be warrantied.
Wedi use to use a white caulking sealant.
@@jamespenhale6166 wedi didn’t always use the grey sealant. Use to be a white caulking type sealant
Man you are the Medical Examiner of failed showers. Love your work and transparency. Keep it up mate!!
IVE BEEN WATCHING YOUR VIDEOS FOR AWHILE NOW. IM A HANDYMAN FOR 34 YEARS AND I WATCH AND LISTEN TO YOU. IM NOT A NO IT ALL AND YOU ARE RIGHT! IT DOES NOT HURT TO BE EXTRA CAREFUL AND THOROUGH LIKE YOU ARE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST AND I WILL SUBSCRIBE NOW. MIKE
What you showed in this video, no homeowner should ever go through.
My observations even though it’s hard to tell from the video, few things did caught my eye.
This type of shape of shower would’ve been much easier to do traditional mudpan, than WEDI and most likely cheaper also.
WEDI pans come in squares and rectangles, meaning the installer had to cut this pan to fit perfectly into that opening which can be tricky and if he was off at any of those angles that could’ve created a problem.
If you ever worked with WEDI sealer you’d know it doesn’t just “delaminate” that stuff you can rip off even if you wanted to.
Another problem, I didn’t see any fiberglass tape at all the corners connecting floor and wall and sides. when you connect wall board to floor pan you squeeze extra sealant out and add more if needed than use a square spread tool to spread sealant couple inches on both side and run a fiberglass tape into corners. That secures both sides and keeps them together even if there’s a large settlement.
Isaac run a test with it even for your self, WEDI sealant is crazy strong, I just can’t believe that it just delaminated, there must be more to that story. Either bottom pan wasn’t properly installed to subfloor and there was a “play” which in time tore them apart, or those panels weren’t installed correctly.
It would’ve been nice to see how bench was assembled, but it just looks wrong. I would’ve made square shower corner and installed wedi type corner shower in already installed WEDI shower. That would be the correct way to do that. Also we didn’t see drain assembly which can leak if not properly installed and another very important is curb, we didn’t see.
Thank you for your videos, they help me to pay more attention at certain things at work on daily bases.
And don’t feel bad pointing out things that are clearly failed, we all who do this for living need to see them.
Sorry for the long ramble.
It delaminated after 10 years of temperature and moisture cycle.
Doesn't mean that it is not super strong in the first couple years.
Agree.. tape should have been added.
Any system even a hot mop is not fool proof. They all have a lifetime.
I would say there was too few joist underneath shower and subfloor was flexing too much which cause delamination of Wedi on floor.
Dunno about codes in US but here maximum O.C for floor joist under shower is 16 o.c with 3/4 thick plywood.
@@turboflush That was leaking after half that, Damage to wood to that extent does not happen overnight
@@mr.wizeguy8995 It depends on local codes. Most allow any joist spacing combo to achieve L/360, but a lot of older buildings here are 24" OC with 2x8 joists, including my own house. There's also weird i-joist systems that have their own spacing requirements.
Also some older buildings have steel or cast iron bathtubs set directly to the joists.
@@philaudiostrike8746
Never said it did happen overnight.
this is some good content issac!
I have been watching all manufacturers videos on shower assemblies with foam boards, and still can’t persuade my mechanical mind that TV packaging grade polystyrene foam with some fleece and sealed by mortar or adhesive can build robust shower stale situated at 2nd or 3rd floor of stick frame house we have in America and will last decades. It may be enough at grade level where you either have concrete slab or your load bearing walls built with 2x6 or 2x8, as you climb higher, walls get thinner and more prone for flex and drift due to temperatures. The only exception may be if you built your custom house and exceeded construction standards. Either way, Those shower systems answer ANSI requirements that allow mechanical give up to 1/16”. This implies that your shower should be rather large to spread contraction/expansion load over more surface to compensate for seasonal dimensional give. In this video shower area rather small 3x4ft, back wall was double layered (not sure why, perhaps contractor thought drywall will server as temperature barrier, or Wedi presolpe was undersized, either way, all it mean that longer screws has to be used, so more roam room for Wedi wall board) Sheetrock has different temperature drift cycle, Wedi board different, and mortar with tile different. Also, bench was installed, which likely added on number of seams, which are temperature breaking points, getting all this combined you can imagine amount friction happening behind tiled surface, all this was just time bomb in my view.
Great video as always. That stuff sucks. Good luck to the home owner on that costly repair.
I'm still amazed that anyone thinks that putting drywall in a shower, no matter what it's covered with, is a good idea
Its done quite often depending on the methods. Some products can work with either or. I wouldn’t use anything but cement board or schluters substrate
That's how he does it with the shluter i have never used the schluter but i use hardibacker. durock,wonderboard is garbage
CGTOW I’m a contractor and if anyone who tiles over drywall in the shower room, will be terminate immediately. Use waterproof go board or cement backer and waterproof Red guard, two coats
Still do it the old way with waterproof board, pvc pan liner , wire and cement on the curb. No leak in 25 years. Nowadays also use red guard for double protection and it looks good. 😏
Thats why that green board had zero damage lol if its waterproofed its same thing
I became a Wedi certified installer in 2007 have put a few systems in at first then I started to see some flaws in the system like no attachment to the wall and floor except for basically caulk . The adhesive I have seen in both white and grey , I always assumed they changed to a different adhesive or different manufacturer. When we see changes like that I get nervous. I don't use this system anymore or ones like it because of the same reasons Isaac mentioned . It's important to not that as our industry moves forward we will see changes it's up to us to determine if we wish to change with it. A warranty is only good if the company or the manufacturer is still around , and it has been my experience that the manufacturer more than likely will deny the claim so it almost always lands on the company or installer the put it in.
You can't be certified installer because 2 min google search tells that panels will attached to walls with sealant and screws with washers and to floor panels are attached with thinset to subfloor. So dunno who taught you to install it.
The attachment I'm referring to is between the floor and the walls where the rabbit is . As far as my certification I surely remember a 3 day class .
@@mikewisor4817 I just installed my Wedi system. The rabbit joint has nothing to do with attatching the pan to the floor nor the panels to the walls. They are there strictly for the joint between the pan and the wall panels. Not sure what kind of FUD you are trying to spread here?
Thank you for the education!
Even before these videos, I never considered any of these gimmicky waterproofing products. Concrete board (only whole pieces with tight joints) and silicone all joints including corners). Concrete floor with PVC liner or premade acrylic floor pan only. My two cents as a 30 year carpenter that dives into the occasional washroom reno/upgrade. Love my tiling hobby and matching furniture.
Love your videos and commend you for your detailed insight on proper and quality workmanship.
One thing Id like to point out. The floor structure. Looks like 24" OC TGI joists and only one joists lands in the layout of the shower pan without any supporting joists at the perimeters. With a single layer of 3/4" t&g decking (maybe it's 1-1/8"?) that would certainly cause a lot of movement. But, if youve been to a WEDI seminar, this is exactly what they preach it is designed to do, move. Not that I agree.
We normally open our floors up for drain placement anyway and at that time add additional cross blocking around the drain and perimeters, sometimes adding new joists where needed.
Also, the major area of damage seems to be near the bench. How was the bench wall board connection to the pan and pan designed around that bench? Curious
I'm no advocate and don't want to preach a product that may have flaws, which almost every product does. But we are certified and have installed these system. On the installs we have done, we have took extra steps and used waterproof membrane adhered with thinset to the floor and 6 inches up the walls before installation. Not something Wedi requires, just an extra step. Like back caulking a trim board, window or similar when dealing with water penetration and envelope. Also, additional floor blocking, pan backed blocking where the wall boards meet the pan etc..
I can't say definitively without seeing it myself whether there was some sort of installation error or product failure but don't wish this on any homeowner or contractor. If this is a product failure at the joints from prolonged movement with the proper installed sealant, Id sure like to know about it. That is what every argument is against these products.
16 OC. The middle one rotted out.
I think we should stick to what works; the basic traditional mud work .then water proof. Like hydro ban.etc. Isaac I appreciate what you do . You care and have a passion for tile work. When you have a change look up Michael Byrne videos yes they are dated, but he’s work will last. Now he is a consultant for tile industry. I go buy his teaching. But keep up great work👍
I agree
Mud and a liner done right and the house will fall down around that shower
I just removed a shower from an old house, the vinyl liner had a date of 1963 printed on it. This was the homes' original tiled shower and it was still going strong. Floated walls and floor, would have lasted decades longer.
BUT....I should say that it is rare to find the original shower in a home in my City these days. People around here remod their baths like they change clothing styles. It is pointless in my market to over build....especially when the market and/or homeowner pays a painfully low price to get it done.
It's never a bad idea in any market to over build. Quality is number 1 period
Issac thank you for your honest opinion about WEDI, I think the reason for this problem is due to insufficient quantity of sealant used in the dado recessed connection of wall to pan and also not adequate seam of 1/8 inch thick x two inch wide along the perimeter of the pan and wall board. I also think WEDI may be aware of some installment difficulties since they make a One-Step pan system with a lip which I prefer but it is in limited sizes which works for new construction but seems never to be the right size for remodeling. After reading your post, I wil consider using prefab pans which have a lip.
I really appreciate your videos, very easy and entertaining to watch; and yes I’m also a wedi guy who is NOT offended. I’m more interested in learning to expand my craft in this industry. You never stop learning.
You must have watched the whole video! Thank you. Most guys get mad, skip through it, and blame the original installer when they don't even know what happened. Most of the complaints I get are "wrong sealant was used". totally false. At the time, wedi was using Sikaflex which is a polyurethane sealant that is totally different than the sealant (silane based) that they use today. I explain in detail in the following video:czcams.com/video/_skYsjFBnPM/video.html
This looks like a job for Flex Tape!
Nice lol
Too bad Billy Mays is dead. He could have fixed this.
nothing a bit of super glue and some caulk can't fix...
Lmao!
Flex seal
Added text -- Does home owners insurance policy cover it ?
Tile guy no longer in business, wedi walked away. ?
Two gentleman on here in the comments did state they believe the wrong sealant was used / wrong silicone caulk.
What recourse does the home owner have.
someone correct me if I am wrong , so we can learn from each other, and help our clients,
so our clients dont have live under such circumstances and we can help them out.
Ok - my point,,, from what I was recently informed ,, slow deterioration, like the plywood , joist, and walls are not covered , under any of the following home owner's policy 1-2,3,5,6 even though the damage was hidden,
I thought this was morally wrong , but in this new direction society, under these types of policies, this is not covered.
I don't know if there is any type of extra endorsements homeowners can get added to there policy to get this covered.
We need help and advice from an insurance company, please no guessing here, only professionals in the industry, that is willing to educate many.
Who knows you might pick up a few clients here for your input, and professional advice, even hook up with Mike and do a collaborative Video together.
this information would help all, ---
we could help protect our own property, --- our families and loved ones properties as well.
As stated above -- A future Video with an insurance company would be a great Video with thousands of hits, as many face this type of problem and deleama.
Your videos are great, the way you dicected the wall and its complete system with its components was great, with so much information.
Mike you have a great channel and wish you great success. .
Homeowners insurance will not cover this. It typically covers only events that occur suddenly, not deterioration over time. Or contractor malfeasance. That is the general rule and individual companies and policies may vary.
Thx for the info & video👍🏻
I opted for the KBRS shower pan system. It’s rigid foam that comes already coated and waterproofing membrane, uses polyurethane sealant in the joints then gauging fabric over the joints followed by more water proofing membrane. The shoes curb has 1/2” of a solid pvc so you can actually drill into it. Never understood other manufacturers making curbs just out of foam.
I'm going to be using a similar pan system by RSS with goBoard for the walls. No curb though, I have room to build up a slight ramp with mortar. After seeing this video though I plan on not trusting just the polyurethane joint, I'll be using waterproof taping and hydroban the entire thing.
The former owners of our house had a Wedi shower installed around 12-15 years ago which we just had fail. We have no idea who the installer was - and it's probably a good thing because this failure was due to extreme negligence on the installer's part. The wall was cut too short and tried to use wedi urethane to make up the difference. We had an inch and a half thick rope of wedi urethane around the base of the shower. He also 'adapted' the plumbing on the drain and self-modified wedi parts by slicing off everything and using a rope of caulking the size of my thumb to attach the wedi drain to the P trap....with some other weirdness mixed in for good measure.
Installation instructions state to put a 1/2" bead of sealant in the rabbit joint, insert the 1/2" wedi board into rabbit. Then you are required to use a trowel to strike that joint. After the shower is completed they are then required to come back and add a 1/2" bead of sealant to all seams. Then strike that. It appears to me that the 2nd bead of sealant was never applied otherwise we would of seen that sealant going in both directions towards the drain, and also towards the rabbit channel in the walls.
Wedi sealant certification is to tolerate gives up to 1/16”. Likely, it was structural issue, like subfloor had some give, or wall had flex, which eventually resulted in adhesive delamination. Also, suspicious part, that double layer wall, my guess they did that either to catchup on fixed size of preslope base as it might be undersized.
Riiiight, couldn't be a faulty system lol
So glad I found this video!!!
This is one of the reasons why I don't particularly like topical waterproofing because if there is a shift in the house foundation it could crack down in the corners of the pan and then you're going to have a problem.
It's so important to get the perimeter of the pan sealed really tight.
Excellent failure analysis! As with every failure completed by a factory trained technician, the manufacturer will deny, deny, deny.
I'm just a DIY dummy and I would never use a foam product to support something like tile in a bathroom. That does not compute in my head!
I've seen fully loaded concrete trucks drive over 1" thick foam boards without damaging the foam on large concrete pours hundreds of times. The concrete is poured over the foam.
Foam works great but it needs to be supported 100% underneath by a substrate that does not move. In concrete work the substrate is compacted fill.
It looks like the foam in these showers is not well supported. With people bouncing around the shower like its a trampoline and seismic tremors in CA, that foam is getting flexed, twisted, and pulled in every direction. I'm surprised this shower last as long as it did.
Freakin eh man
Information and knowledge........ 100% great video. ..we got to feel bad for the home owner that thought he was getting a good deal.
Having not long installed a similar foamboard shower system (Marmox) as a DIY effort at my own house. I'm glad after seeing this that not only were all board joints sealed but i also used the self adhesive tanking tape on the wallboard to former right around the perimeter of the tray, internal corners floor to ceiling, and all low level board joints. Hopefully avoiding this suspected failure point.
Mapei has a self sealing bandage as does Technokolla, they are designed to be a consistent crack coverage item for a full liquid applied membrane. They do not work well by themselves. Marmox is under parent company WarmUp and their system sucks balls....it really does.
Here in New Zealand, they place a sheet waterproofing membrane, then the marmox board, then the underfloor heating and tiling....all wrong. The bathrooms smell musty and all the levels are out unless the room was plumb and level from the start. Totally dumb system thats overpriced.
Isaac, great video once again. I agree with you reliying on caulk that is hidden makes me say no way! I have an open mind , but my my mind tells me if ain't broke don't fix it. I will stick with my traditional shower pan liner and mud floor.
Keep in mind though when joining sheets of certain liner materials they sometimes use a caulk as well and that scares me just as much as that Wedi joint.
I hope you are better at shower pans most installers do. Daily I walk into failed mudset pans. Yesterday I got to redo a shower that was never used it was so badly done.
was i bit fearful when i read the title i fit these wedi pans and always recommend them, there not so quick or easy to install.
the trays need complete coverage so the sub-base needs to be made completely solid flat and level before fitting, with a stable resin bonded ply (marine) base with expansion joints around perimeter, osb or chinese ply is no good you need a dimensionally stable backing, glue lam floors joists flex to much and will need extra support, the drain needs to be precisely solid set in screed within the subfloor before fitting else the drain area has no support and will fail, extra support and modifications to the sub-wall are also required like with kerdi board adding extra studs levelling and noggins etc, to waterproof you need to use proper band and two part adhesive or i use kerdi band and coll,
honestly believe if done properly this system is far superior to any other, but in reality the wedi system requires considerable more labour and expense compared to a mortar pan, the advantage is if fitted properly you can have completely fail-proof system especially with a four sided fall tray and the dimensional accuracy makes them great for large format, iv seen videos by Seb and home repair where they fit these pans straight over sagged damaged osb flooring, then leave a massive gap in the sub-base where the drain is located, then waterproof seal the perimeter edges with a tube of caulk this is all wrong,
its almost impossible for the wedi trays to fail only the installation and sub-base can fail, wedi will claim either the drain wasn’t solidly set in screed and the pan broke or the subbase wasn’t structly sound or dimensionally stable causing movement that damaged the waterproofing, or the incorrect waterproofing was used
Amen!
@Pedro Escarfullery What is the purpose of hiring a "Wedi Certified" installer if Wedi will just go back and blame the installation? It seems that Wedi wants to have it both ways:
1. Hire one of our certified installers and you have nothing to worry about for the life of our 15 year warranty.
2. If it fails, they deny the claim and say that it was a faulty install.
In effect, your warranty is worthless from day one, yet you paid dearly for the peace of mind that their system, certified installer program and the warranty supposedly provide. If this is what they are doing they are a reprehensible outfit and need to suffer some legal consequences.
Here in Norway for the Wedi system where floor meets we use a membrane tape and tape all joints, inner and outer corners then apply two coats of liquid membrane over all of the tape.
@@TileCoach I already purchased a Wedi system to install in my house and now I'm worried- does it make sense to follow the method that Alexhjthekid notes above?
@@gannonfive throw the wedi out. Or return it if you can.
Use a copper, lead or rubber membrane. And run it up the walls a foot or two. Or to the top of the shower. At least high enough so you can see any cracks in the mortar if you tile.
For myself I will look into marble slabs. 1 piece per wall. With a lead or copper pan and a heavy rubber liner. Even with one piece slabs run the metal or rubber up the walls a good 2 feet.
It is called insurance!!!
And it's often cheaper in the long run!!! Just ask the homeowner in this vid!!!
Tell your installer to over build. He will say that you don't need to. tell him that you always buy extra insurance.This is noce Roman stone tile.I would cry in my car if I had to deal with this in my home.stay strong man.
thats why i dont care about manufacturer warranties, they have salaried goobers that will weasel their way out of every claim.
I just have to say I have never used Wedi for my showers but I use Laticretes shower system. That type of sealant actually "welds" itself to the foam. If its similar to laticretes sealant theres no way you could pull two pieces of sealed foam apart at the seam, you would rip the foamboard before that happened. My theory is the wrong sealant was used, Wedi sealant back then was not sufficient in adhering the foam together properly or the contractor did not perform that step correctly (dust in the joint preventing adhesion possibly). Then again maybe this is the long term effect of these foam systems coming to light. Who knows? Time will tell.
Maybe time is already telling.
Improper cleaning out of excess thin set in the rabbit is what it looked like to me. The sealant certainly stuck well enough to the wall board, just not in the rabbit.
Wedi sealant is gray not white.
This video makes me feel better about my apartment bathroom I ripped apart. The more I rip apart the more stuff I need to fix though.....
Good one Isaac. That is why I refuse to use any other products. Other than shluter. So far they have been the best so far.
Looks to me like the floor was not super stiff and the sealant flashed before they put the walls on the pan, thus not sticking.
Ahh valid points
Flexable foam shower walls and 250lb guy day in day out. What could go wrong. LOL. I thought my concrete board was light.
Once you tile it and use an epoxy grout on the floor, there is no flex.....hell after you tile it there just isn’t any flex in the pan or the foam curb if you go that route. I do think I might start adding mesh tape with the sikiflex caulking though
You did this very well, I am impressed..
Thanks love your videos 💯💪
I feel really bad for the homeowner. So much damage.
Shower cabin wasnt good enough for him
“I use a lot of common sense” lol Great quote Isaac
@Pedro Escarfullery Because most guys won't admit that they got a leak. I mean someones making all the leaks right? But no ones done one....you do the math.
@Pedro Escarfullery xD
Pedro Escarfullery shit happens lol nobodys perfect
Common sense would be not doing this type of shower in the wooden "house"
This is *exactly* the problem I just had only 2 and a half years after the install. The joints in the Wedi floor and where the walls meet the floor failed and I got massive rot in the subfloor and studs, water eventually appearing in the ceiling of the room below which alerted me to the issue. The Wedi sealant was used as specified.
The contractor is redoing the shower and part of the walls under warranty right now, using Wedi. He's creating a deeper rabbit in the floor pan and he's adding water seal tape at the corners and all joints and RedGard over the the bottom 3 feet of the entire shower. I sure hope that's sufficient! I don't have degradation in the foam so he's not replacing the shower bed. The local tile shop convinced me to use this material as superior to green board in the original install. I wish I had seen this a week ago.
Been doing wedi this year did two custom shower with this system , never again thanks for the video , also a certified weidi installer from
Ohio . Going back to the old method , I foresee warranty replace my in the near future !
Don't worry about what you did. Wedi is good as long as you used the wedi caulk sealant. It clearly wasn't used here and is the failure.
Moral of the story. Stop tiling shower floors. Buy a shower pan and tile the walls.
I try to convince homeowner to go with cultured marble shower base.
Exactly. I work with this crap every day and it's NOT WORTH IT.
No kidding.
I am in the process of buying an engineered quartz (Silestone) shower pan. I'm trying to avoid these sorts of problems. Hopefully, I can figure out the best way to seal the tile wall/pan intersection. There are so many methods and products out there that it's hard to make sense of it all.
while that certainly seems practical, the problem is that prefab shower pans are ugly as hell. Have to draw the line between what's practical and what looks decent. Certainly everyone appreciates a nice aesthetic.
2007 there was no warranty over 10 years. The Pro Warranty came out much later maybe 2016? And that was a 15 or 20 warranty. Also Wedi has never had white sealant
Ya I was surprised when I saw it was white
I always thought it was a grayish/ silver color. I didnt use wedi until a few years ago and now use hydroblock which is the same thing
Any system that relies on a caulk joint at THE BOTTOM is prone to failure eventually...even if the caulk seems impenetrable when brand new...that way of thinking is sadly typical of the North American/wood frame building industry...
czcams.com/video/_skYsjFBnPM/video.html
I refitted my bathroom out in 2006 using wedi all round. On the walls and floor with a fundo shower. The wall to floor joints should be taped with their neoorene tape and not sealant because the sealant will fail with slight movement. The tape will accept a much higher amount of movement. I've not had a single problem in all those years and when I refurbished my kitchen, I replaced the ceiling which is below the shower and the joists were bone dry. This job looks like it wasn't done properly. Wedi is a good product but like anything it will only work if it's done properly. Also, I didn't notch out my shower tray. I don't know about the US but here in the UK it's not advertised as being an easy product to install.
Great video, I love the detailed analysis.
I think the floor wasn't properly supported, and the rabbet but had dust in it.
Both of these things suggest an improper install.
The system isn't resilient , too many points of potential failure, with no fail-safes.
My father built a shower in his basement using cement and tile floor, waterproof paint and sealant on the cinder block walls, and while it looks horribly out of date, it never leaked in over 40 years.
This is how they do it in the Netherlands, just tile against concrete. NO PROBLEMO! The problem i think in the US is that they build al houses out of wood, which works & expand contracts with thermal cycle, leading to cracks in the waterproofing.
@@sirrcharles1869 Totally true. Continued movement over time will break almost any seal.
Failure by design, there should be a class action.
Glad I saw this as I was considering using wedi for my bathroom makeover. Thanks for the heads up! I feel bad for the homeowner
For anybody that dogs you about it, let them. They never have a problem til they have a problem. It’s not if, it’s when.
Glad to see you standing firm. I’ve done a few rebuilds for folks that had problems. They might leak for years before it’s noticed so it’s best to use the tried and true method even if it cost more. Pay me now or pay me later.
Hopefully you’ll get the rebuild job and wedi has to write a check.
Wow!! They must have done something wrong.I have a video testing Wedi sealant and there board.It held water 30 days no problem.
But yes if there is a lot of movement of the structure over time,something has to give.
Pedro Escarfullery you might be correct
Pedro Escarfullery
Sure seems that way, if there was sealant it wouldn’t just cleanly leave channel.
@Pedro Escarfullery pedro is an idiot. There was clearly sealant applied to the channel.
@@travisk5589 except it pulled away for some reason?
Isaac Ostrom I hear you.That said they must of not put sealant there or not enough
Best shower proof install I've seen is a full coved corian shower.
Corian is ugly
What is a “shower proof” install? Does that mean a shower base that works? Why not just go cast iron shower base?
This is a great example not to have a tile anything. Had a new tub put in with a well made tub surround. No more cleaning grout lines and mold
I've been tiling 25 years and I'm so glad i never tried this garbage. .