The Importance of Disappointment: Jonathan Pageau The Quest for a Spiritual Home
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- čas přidán 23. 05. 2023
- This was the second talk of the conference. PVK had the first talk. It followed his.
Volume seemed a bit low especially at the beginning but seems to improve.
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I like how he's like "this will be anti-symbolic" and then proceeds to talk about how Odysseus' bed mimics the Garden of Eden and what that has to do with you joining a local church.
Love this man.
Homelessness: the relentless quest to not be disappointed. And not finding it.
I believe that is exactly right. Is there a such thing as a happy wanderer would perhaps be a good follow up question.
@@mills8102 yes! That would be a great question. I suspect there might be happy wanderers.
So cute how Pageau brought his own podium to the talk
He carried it all the way from his home in Canada
Yes, he made it himself
After 24 hours I can no longer help myself; it’s a lectern
@@gregorymoats4007 💯
Jonathan just explained Ecclesiastes for us.
Being able to be disappointed in what you deem most important is what’s more important than the selfish need to find importance in your disappointment.
This is gold. Thank you, Philip.
Despite the lack of symbolic language I feel as if this is Pageau’s most important talk. This is something everyone must understand. I watched it shortly after the birth of my son while watching him sleep.
Indeed. Jonathon displayed, at least for me, what can only manifest from within those who gather in unity of spirit. Or at least pointing towards it. His desire to not be first so as to build upon others before him seems to be the humility of growing in wisdom. Reformulating a prepared talk, including and expanding collective knowledge and wisdom in real-time. Not needing or wanting to be first. A form of dialogos. He is at ease with Being. He teaches ways of thinking, not what to think, like a good spiritual director. It is not simply commentary for consumption. It is real nourishment for a soul…and he knows this cannot be accomplished necessarily though a screen. Yet somehow he seems to do just that…and that’s not nothing
Watching now with my 5 day old daughter on my lap. (First). Hard to listen to the Abraham Isaac narrative. Good stuff.
Congrats! God grant him Many Years!
Congratulations and blessings!
I like the german word for disappointment, namely "Enttäuschung"
Täuschung means "deception", so Enttäuschung = disappointment is the unmasking of this deception (sometimes self-deception) and is therefore actually something positive
I shall have to polish up my German and French, to look into the origin of these words and concepts, but I know that in French decevoir and deception have to do with disappointment, as in Je suis decu, rather than our English sense of being deceived. Language comparison is fascinating
I just did a Google search and this is what it gave:
What is the biblical meaning of disappointment?
Disappointment is a Process.
And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. To him be the power forever and ever.
What does God teach us through disappointment?
However, with God, when we get disappointed, we can always make a decision to get reappointed. We can choose to look to Him for new hope and renewed strength to go forward.
Real wisdom for young people: any Church is made up of the messiness of people and our foibles. Church at its best provides us with the "pattern" of the Heavenly and Holy as it elevates us above these "disappointments" which are baked into life in this world for our good to keep us stretching, seeking, and yearning for God.
"An eschatological memory" -Pageau
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End" -Revelation 22:13
A great Christian understanding of "detachment". Similar to the calling of the stoics, but without love, stoics ends up being too harsh, and their philosophy practically unliveable. To another point JP makes; I think we can also end up idolising ("resting in") virtue itself. So, my chastity or patience becomes the whole point of the spiritual life. What comes with that is scrupulosity, despair, and guilt - because guess what, I will fall, and I will disappoint myself. So, then, do we detach from this expectation of perfectionism in this virtue? this seems to be the case. What's hard though, is the balance between the two: once we admit that we are imperfect, the danger is that we give up on being virtuous at all. And this cannot be the answer. So, as I see it, it's something like admitting your imperfections while striving towards it - yoked together with Christ.
Home is where the mundane becomes sacred.
23:23 While listening to this talk I contemplated the pursuit of one more cup of coffee. Then, I realized I didn't need it and luxuriated in the cup I already had. Thank you, Jonathan! 😊
That was amazing!!! It takes on the issue of disappointment head on. This is important for believers to understand.
I dunno man. People disappoint, places disappoint, I disappoint. But the Orthodox Tradition has not disappointed. The prayers, the hymns, the icons, the Fathers, Scripture, the services, the whole body of it. If I am disappointed in it, it's just because I'm not paying attention, or I have failed in humility. But it's an endless gift. And it's always there for when I wake up again.
I concur Lisa! Well said.
Yes! ☦️☦️☦️
Great to read you have found a home!
I really needed this. Jonathan is always helping me get closer to God.
I am always impressed by Jonathan's ability to explain so many complex thoughts into more digestible ideas. Thanks God bless all of you.
I love "Guru Jonathan" doling out life advice. I'm glad he plays that card close to his chest.
Keep setting up the tension Jonathan! If we hold the tension we can walk on water.
Beautifully put!
I re-watched this video today and it was just what I needed.
This whole talk was an excellent discription of the critical role for spiritual discipline (ascesis). How can you be ready for disappointment and death if you haven't practiced it over and over? Also, the end of the Hail Mary: "pray for us now and at the hour of our death."
One of his better talks
33:14 Not seeking spiritual experience: reminded me of the Road to Emmaus as soon as Jesus broke the bread (Eucharist) and they finally recognized Him... He vanished.
By far the most charismatic "I forgot to prepare a speech" moment ever 😂
One of my favorite talks really humbled us all
Yes!!!!
JP and PVK 🎉❤
I'm so excited to hear this again. Good morning and thank you Pastor Paul
Absolutely wonderful. Thank you Jonathan, and Paul.
This man is an absolute treasure ❤
Always love hearing Jonathan expanding on or extrapoliting his message. So much here resonates with me.
I'm listening to Rod Dreher's "How Dante Can Change Your Life," and he speaks of his breaking point with the Catholic Church, regarding the child molestation scandal and the way that it was mishandled just being too much for him to tolerate. Where is the line drawn between simple disappointment in human messiness and fallibility, and something that's just too much to bear? I'm sure several people would answer this several different ways, but Jonathan's comment about confronting disappointment after the "honeymoon" stage reminded me of Dreher. Anyway, this was a great talk and I'm definitely going to work on the part about grasping onto things, and about God's "concessions" to us while He tries to "drag us up the mountain."
The grasping is something I’ve known about and heard said in different forms. Like cupping a handful of sand or holding a wet bar of soap. As soon as you try to grasp either they either fly out your hand or trickle through losing the lot! Just thought I’d share that metaphor. :)
The point is that the disappointment of the Roman catholic church is systematic in nature. Thats what caused Dreher to leave, but he also saw the fullness in the Orthodox church
In this world, in which we are on a pilgrimage towards eternal home, wearing our tabernacle of the mortal body, the only constant, abiding rest, through all the tribulations and disappointments in life, is found in personal union with God, as the Saviour said, to love Him above all else, to fix all our hopes for ourselves and for loved ones, in Him, to have Father, Son and Holy Ghost make their home in us now (St John 14.23), for that is eternal life now, knowing the only true God in Jesus Christ.
this is one of the most incredible talks i’ve heard
MT ATHOS: "If you die before you die, you won't die when you die"
ΑΓΙΟΡΕΙΤΙΚΗ ΡΥΣΗ -ΣΟΦΙΑ : «Ἄν πεθάνεις πρίν πεθάνεις, δέν θά πεθάνεις ὅταν πεθάνεις»
Ο ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΜΑΖΙ ΣΟΥ ΙΩΝΑΘΑΝ
Man, the stage lights and auditorium acoustics coupled with Jonathan's voice is giving me the heebie-jeebies
Wow, so profound but also so practical, all wrapped up in that very Orthodox "bright sadness"...I couldn't resist immediately sending it to my priest and godparents 😅Glory to God for what you're doing, Pageau. And of course thank you, Pastor VanderKlay, for hosting this event and letting us see what happened there
"In order for the world to exist, we cannot own a home."
Here we go, Paul...Peter Rollins.
This is the libidinal pursuit of the Lack (that which promises to make one whole and complete). And probably "whole" in a quantitative sense.
The misdirected search for power. All the same concept
Also, there is a kind or type of "disappointment" or "insufficiency" that is akin to our experience of it. The *reality* of it is the same, but the experience could be different.
This is the Green Lady in Perelandra, Paul. She came to understand "disappointment" and "insufficiency", but in a way that was different than Adam. The *reality*/what is(not)/(not)God is always the same.
If only someone brought up Rollins in TLC earlier....
3:54 - 4:47 Re: memory of the Garden
Consciousness is memory: remembering (unity) and forgetting (disappointment).
A friend shared a line from a poem from Philip Dacey:
"[he] wishes away what he gives praise to God by being, poor man."
"eschatological memory". Eternal. Past & future. Present
"We have to let them die." We have to give them up, give ourselves up. We have to forget.
9:04 "this is true for the world to exist."
I love the evangelical Megachurch vibe 🤣🤣
Hillsong time.
Disappointed in lack of smoke machines
@@fakename3208 And lasers.
Post evangelical
Post-spiritualbutnotreligeous
"I'm trying to make you come" - Jesus, according to Johnny P🤣🤣🤣 This guy is a legend
Thanks Jonathan and Paul!
Superb. Humbling. One of my favorite talks thus far.
If you expect to find home on this earth, you will be disappointed. Glory to God! I should never forget to remember that these good things point to Christ. They are not Christ.
This is brilliant. Thank you!
Abide in Jesus, abide in His love, let His words abide in you, and you will be His abode, in this life and in the next.
Thank you for sharing this with us out in cyberspace. Would have loved to have been there; very glad to be able to consider these thoughts.
The image of the man and the woman finding rest at the bridal chamber is really great, as the segway into eschatology, memory, and letting go of it.
Of course this talk comes out when I'm dealing with two huge disappointments in life
Leave it to Pageau to destroy the premise of the conference in his first appearance 😅
The aim to find a spiritual home is an idolatrous one. "Spirituality" is not a means to supplement ourselves.
When you die the surprise is found in the emergence of life. Death brings life.
Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it stays alone: but if it die, it brings forth much fruit.
Absolutely necessary talk. Enchantment may be needed but too much shiny advertisement teaches us that dishonesty or at least heavy omission is the norm. Thank you John for talking about the reality. May ironically help the weary find respite.
Wow this is awesome!!! No views yet!!!
It is awesome, Yes and No... and there are views from the other side of the pond!!!
Wonderful talk. Think it is v much in tune with McGilchrist's view of left brain dominance which is the grasping hemisphere.
Also made me think of LOTR and how there is a Gift/Grasping dynamic throughout. Tolkien knew this.
Just Wow
14:00 - 14:18 Re: Self-naming and the pursuit of quantitatively full identity (a species of the Satan, the libidinal pursuit of the Lack)
This is identitarianism and the autonomous, isolated individual v. the Person. And its spiritual roots are confessionalism. See the Rohlin/Pageau History of Nationalism talk. Group/religious identity moves toward Nationalist identity, moves to individualist identity. (which is all necessary in the evolution of consciousness: remembering/forgetting).
As we move to Christ in me/you.
I just had a revelation about God not grasping us and how that makes us. 🤯
Thank you for sharing this! I REALLY wanted to attend the conference, but I wasn’t able to travel to California. I’m excited to watch the other speakers.
Oh dear! This means I have to let go of my self.
Based Jonathan:)
Bronze
lmfao
Maybe we can find a spiritual home in this life. It's certain that it can not in anyway be static and sedentary which may lead people to despondency and to think there is no spiritual home in this reality. But the idea of a spiritual home (meaning Divine Relationship) in motion heading towards the complete consummation of Divine Relationship in Paradise I feel is highly probable.
Not Home but The Feeling of Belonging to..
@truly blessed that's the perennial danger of gangs. You find your sense of belonging in a terrible place.
Where does Heaven meet Earth? Right before your very eyes. Look to the horizon. It is all hidden in plain sight.
I'm realizing an interesting paradox in my current state that relates to this very much. I couldn't help but notice that God is taking me through this massive surge of rapidly explaining these key truths about my life and the faith, to the point where I almost can't keep up, and I think it's sort of a concession to a critical error in my attitude, because I really am not interested in following after all these people in the bible who waste decades of their lives learning these lessons the hard way. I almost don't even want to experience my own catechism, I just want to skip ahead to the good part. I'm not saying that I'm doing that, but it's what I want. And the fact that God is sort of giving it to me almost feels like a punishment. But, considering the message of this video, at the same time, I realize that giving up the detour is also a type of dying, that may just lead to an even fuller life compared to trying to really grasp this "growing up" period of time, so I might just be cheating my way into the secret joke solution almost by accident. Intrinsically giving up this period of time by not even wanting it, and forcibly giving up the skipping of it by still participating in it as much as I am able, giving up both of the things and seemingly receiving both as a result.
It's all so very odd, but God is wonderful and great within all the strangeness. Praise the Lord.
Related thought: Is it a sacrifice if you didn't want it in the first place?
Not really giving up, more like putting in place.
28 Grasp, LH
Sounds a lot like the Buddhist doctrine of impermanence and that life is suffering/inadequate/disappointing
First ❤❤❤
GOLD!
Shall be last…
@@gregorywitcher5618 You are breaking my heart Witcher!@ Why O Why?
@@vixendixon6943 Turth Justice and the American Way? Wait. That’s Superman.
You don’t die because you are practicing dying. You die because only in dying can you trample death. See Viktor Frankl.
First
Sooo close...
Has Israel apologized for the USS liberty event yet?
*tosses a comment to the algorithm*
This is far better than a lot of the comedy specials on Netflix at the moment, a brilliant work of satire
SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY THE CLOSING SLIDE IS CAPE TOWN HAHAHAHAHA
Dr IMcG and the Coincudence of Opposites.
Oops! Coincidence…….if vowels matter. Or words. We talk because we cannot see so we fill up the space like wee addicts. Or we eat.