The Best Jonathan Pageau John Vervaeke Conversation to Date
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- čas přidán 29. 05. 2023
- In my opinion anyway. @JonathanPageau @johnvervaeke
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"I don't mean to stop being a Christian. I just mean to die (and I'm sorry to say that)" - Jonathan Pageau, 16:26
Custom made T shirts on the fly would be excellent for the next conference. Perhaps daily top submissions will be available the next day? I’d like one of Jonathan’s face with the above quote in a speech bubble on my chest. If I had enough money to go to an event I would have enough money to spent on merch. @Paul VanderKlay, dibs on being the T-shirt guy?
Is that not what Jesus did?
@@KEYMASTERJONNY Jesus made T-shirts?!?!
Modest martyr
It points to a very old and seemingly universal idea that death is part of life. Outwardly, it's self-evident, I guess. In social terms, it sounds a bit Hegelian in that society is constantly moving towards the Absolute. Perhaps there is a universal imperative that, to attain its end, things must go wrong in order for them to end up right. Hence, suffering. I have a feeling the Hindus were the first to express this idea. Fascinating conversation, many thanks to both!
Starts off with both of them interurpting and apologizing to each other 😂😂 funniest thing I ever seen
I have been more impressed by Pageau in these talks than by anything I've previously heard him say. Perhaps it's just that I've given him more attention. I really rather like him now.
It takes a while to understand what Jonathan is up to.
In a few years you’ll be ready for a Mattheiu emergence.
I jest. Just know that Jonathan gets much of what he talks about from his relationship with his brother and his work.
Oh snap: 4:30 he just said as much
Jonathan has been speaking sense for years now. Vervaeke on the other hand I can’t stand, he speaks nothing but woo.
Struck by John opening up near the end. I can hear the difficulty he has when he speaks about his relationship to Christianity, which makes me admire him even more for having the courage to do so. Thanks for uploading and I can only agree, Paul, that this was their best conversation thus far.
Pray that Jonathan brings John into Christianity.
yes. I'd love for someone to ask John how he decides (or can "know") when to trust his own spirit. He seems to be sussing out where the limits of his knowing end and where faith's demands begin.
@@UnlistedLogosto support your fate???. I think he can bring more good to the world by bridging not by staying in one particular fate
@@UnlistedLogos God forbid! Christianity is just one expression of humanity's spiritual experience.
@@brendantannam499Brendan,I don't think you understand Christianity. I gonna terrify you a bit with the claims if you read through. So, you have been warned.
Here's one, no one comes to the father except through me(that's either incredibly arrogant, maniacal or is), which is to say that the path to holiness, is slim pickings. And the states of phenomena you find in the world, are just that human perceptions of their psyche trying to pin God down. Whether be it through our Buddhist friend here, or something else, we are idol making machines. A little bit of good, we immidietly try to contain it put it in a box, which also looks like, graven images. Larry can do thrity pushups praise be to Larry, let's put an image of Larry, which is fine, but let's not mistake Larry for his father and so on and on it goes.
Also, the thing is this kind of dialogue is only possible in the Christian countries, and only in Christian countries can come a foreigner and mock him. Sort of like the cross, when are dividing the lots and stuff. Think of that as fractal of the fore-mentioned phenomena. The whole point of the endeavor is for the being itself to level humanity at every level to redeem/provide a route, that is why there is no cursing when the lots are divided, and why death is necessary, for the possibility of renewal. I mean we do that all the time, in a fractal way, drop for hours every night, that's the weirdest thing. Why wouldn't it be true for a cosmos? And there in lies the problem, all of our daily patterns and especially what we call good, are anchored in something, or else what the hell are we doing but, pleasing the whimsies of the world, and hence goes the point of multiple paths. There maybe multiple ways of being in the world, lawyer, sportsman, etc but they are all anchored in the same thing man. Take that out, you are fucked. So, no to pantheism.
Anyways, I hope it helps, and if read through this, hey. Thank you. But, the whole Christian endeavor without the Kant-ian veneer is so radical, and can only be experienced/Lived. Otherwise, we have mental masterbation, and it's worth less.
If nothing else remember this, all of this every word we speak or myths or whatever, are coming from human. So, if the being of all beings were to manifest, it would have to do so in human form, else you and I wouldn't understand (try talking to a kid about bank, either run away or cry, that's because we can only work at our own level) hence, the death is as a disease is only cured through the being, which made the things. He became sin(to the toddler, engage at that level, to the lawyer at his, and to the rest, as radical destruction of hell/ultimate fragmentation) and then comes the resurrection. Think of it as a new firmware update, human 2.0.
Seeing Vervaeke navigate that terrain with intellectual materialism is like watching someone unscrewing a star shaped screw with a flat screwdriver. I like his motivation and I am thankful for the hard work to build the bridge so we can cross to the other side.
It was the same with JBP, at some point you have to make the jump to the proper tools and then everything become effortless and elegant.
Seeing the smile and ease of Jonathan discussing issues that twisted the face and mental abilities of JBP convinced me to follow the lead of Pageau and also make the jump into religion.
(also Sam Harris, seeing him break down on Trump convinced me how we are all religious anyway, some just don’t know the spirit that inhabit them)
Thank you for expressing this - I felt a connection here because I had exactly the same perception. Jonathan's smile and ease, as you say, is exactly why I was drawn so strongly to Christ and put trust in the bible, church father's, the spiritual tradition. I would never have engaged with all this without a strong motivational force and someone from my own time (with a clear understanding of my former scientifically informed secular worldview). Now I am grateful beyond belief for all the riches I can find in these sources and see the Spirit begin to work in my own life, painting it way more colorful and joyful than I ever knew.
So, thanks again for sharing, and may God bless you!
(I hope that my writing is not taken as boasting or writing of myself for the sake of it - and God forbid that this is what my heart is after! I was just so happy to read your words because we seem fellows on the same path with similar perceptions, and so I want to offer a little of my own in return, perhaps for inspiration or encouragement. Peace be with us!)
Well possibly because he isn't trying to convey certain ideas, in order to respect the christian in front of him and the audience of christians ? But i guess you could say without religion you're just inadequate to speak of wisdom, which is wrong in every sense of the word.
Well put! When JV talked of his desire to be humble and in the same breath said he gave Christ credit where credits was due I was mortified that he did not see that claim as ironic.
@@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760 because to him christ is a teacher not the literal incarnate of God.... He compares him to buddha just before he says that as well.
No doubt pageau has diddled kids
The best part of listening to JBP was discovering Pageau. Thank you for this amazing conversation!
58:30 - There are ways Christianity is taught and enacted that deeply undermine people's ability to re-orient themselves in a transformational time (exile), like how you were talking about earlier. For example I could be taught, in some churches today, that I am corrupted in such a deep way that I cannot trust in my own capacities in any way what-so-ever. This makes a time of trouble even more anxiety inducing, because as I attempt to re-orient, my ability to discern anything is constantly undermined by the idea that all my capacities are completely broken. Even if I sense something "real" that could possibly be a foothold, a step toward a new orientation, I am thrown into immediate skepticism about it. This is what Job's friends do to Job. They undermine any hope he has at any moment rather than give up their doctrine and face the disaster honestly.
Your comment is pivotal for our time. It nails the real issue. We have abstracted so highly, we can’t solve any problems. This conversation is a perfect example.
Agreed. This is well said.
I have been going to church thanks to Jonathan and to JBP. I tell you, he is right, even with all our intellectual energy we cannot participate in the same manner, and that is for the tiny 0.001% that like to watch that kind of video. How can the 99.999% of the population aim in the same direction and collaborate together without this.
In some sense I think our modern atheist time is only possible because of the cradle of christianity that created the conditions of trust and safety to allow people to have that level of freedom.
But as those principles fades away we will see our systems and institutions crumble as they need that level of trust and integrity to function properly.
*I tell you, he is right, even with all our intellectual energy we cannot participate in the same manner, and that is for the tiny 0.001% that like to watch that kind of video. How can the 99.999% of the population aim in the same direction and collaborate together without this.*
Maybe - _maybe_ - when all these Christian "authorities” stop assuming that 99.999 % of the population are to be treated like little children.
What an example they set. Much gratitude.
While watching this I'm reminded of Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. It's amazing and rewarding to watch as these two collaborate to refine each others thoughts and ability to convey those thoughts to others clearly. Great talk. Thanks
Interesting coincidence- just this morning I listened to Charles Eisenstein's "Staying sane in the next 5 years", his latest talk. He is saying exactly the same as John and Jonathan here concerning future, intentions for the future and yet no plans.... quite amazing!
John you have graduated to such an elder. Thank you.
Finally! Thanks sooo much Paul , Ive been looking forward to this. Wow I literally cried toward the end. John is such a beautiful person, God bless all your hearts
Glory to God ❤
Every time they say "thingy", I am reminded of the profound work of Ian McGilchrist "The Matter With Things"...
..thingy-ness preoccupation is a symptom of a Left brain tryannized worldview
Keen eye!
Worship - we are not simply individual and also so that our joy may be full.
Love this - literally so valuable. A true Διάλογος on reality between two language sets. Fascinating.
Truly exciting to see this level of concilience. I think we are moving towards the common first principle.
They took these talks to a new level, wow!
Thank you for sharing these with us Paul. I really appreciate way they engage with each other where they are instead of attempting to persuade or argue the other to a position. Dancing around the fringes of the corner this year as a non-theist has been a great journey and done a lot to correct many of the misconceptions about religion forged during my youth in the 90s & 2000s. Keep on doing what you do.
Same here brother. The 90's and 2000's was an exile. This feels like the return and the rebuilding but bigger.
Word's can't describe how much I'm looking forward to this!
Pageau talking about a stance that isn't predictive calls to mind Moses's words in Exodus: "Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord."
Apt title for this, Paul, as far as I am concerned! Miraculous. Simply stunning. I will savor this for a long time. The quality of thought and the stance (the love, humility, intellectual honesty, wisdom, courage, ...) on display in this conversation is a wonderful pointer to heaven. Let's learn from them, let's be thankful for all they do and let's give Glory to God for these signs of hope and direction!
Also, thank you so much, Paul, for caring so deeply about this and tirelessly engaging with and sharing all these deep thoughts. May God bless you all!
❤❤❤
I am first of the first if I was there?
@@philipnickerson210 There is valid argument there. Am I First if I don't say First!!
@@vixendixon6943 Yes. But will hold no value to others.
@@philipnickerson210 I am outraged 😠. "All That Glitter Ain't Gold"???
@@vixendixon6943 Ha! Ha! I think Smash Mouth wrote a little ditty about this question.
There is a difference between self esteem and grateful acknowledgement of the work of God in one's life effecting spiritual and moral elevation. We can glory in Christ working in us.
Their comments reminded me specifically of how an entire generation of children was psychologically ruined in the 80s and 90s by being told they were wonderful for just showing up. Hence the "participation trophy." There are consequences to this kind of stuff.
@@sunrhyze Yes we should avoid the two extremes. the other being a denial of intrinsic worth as made in the image of, and loved by, God. There is a false religiosity which treats the creature as utterly evil and not the object of God's love.
Simply... beautiful. 🌷
30:00 - this is the best orientation I hope to have - one of Trust, not of predictive power or reactive power. trust.
People don’t like Job. They think the story isn’t true. Illusions are way more addictive than reality…………which isn’t.
25:57 "Elija is John the Baptist"
26:22 "Are there a lot of people capable of doing that now?" - Thanks to your work and communication, I guess there will be more and more :)
Elisha is Jesus. In Angelology John the Baptist is Sandalphon and Jesus is Metatron. Three levels connected vertically. Also Essenes have two messiahs.
References? And… huh?
@@williambranch4283 "Elisha is Jesus." Gerat example of (pseudo-) "argument by assertion."
@@Robb3348 Not me, complain to the ancients about their crazy ideas. All "reconstructions of the past" are tendentious, particularly ideas.
This was amazing. Thanks Paul
Thanks, Paul!
Superb conversation, thank you for publishing it.
Love these men, gonna rewatch this one.
Thanks Jonathan, John and Paul!
This idea of promised land / exile reminds me of the relationship between Complexity and Chaos in Dave Snowden’s Cynefin framewoek.
Great!
1:05:30 - Re: Failure of self-esteem, then self-naming. This is something I'm really interested in. In the Book of Job, one of the things Job uses to help re-orient himself is his own integrity. There is a lot to say about that, but it seems to be key for him not succumbing to the arguments of his friends, which would make him into a liar, nor does he curse God. But his integrity isn't based on his own works, or anything he has done or earned, but by being a creation of God. He hopes that God will "remember" him, and the more he considers it, the more he's convinced that God must answer him. His friend's think he has gone too far and they rebuke him, but Job's imagination catches a glimpse of something valuable that he can't let go. Once Job discovers this you can see how he grows in courage and the friends realize their arguments have been weak.
George MacDonald noticed this and in his unspoken sermon on Job he writes about how God longs for us to make a claim on him. The claim the creature has on the creator. We didn't ask to be created, he brought us into being, we get to ask him "why?". Wretched or not, he has an obligation toward us, and, George says, he wants us to discover that and cry out to him "Father!"
Both of your comments here state it very well. Our inner sense of trust in the benevolence of our Creator, and in the obligation He has taken on Himself to care for His creatures, gets us through our encounters with erroneous ideas given out in the name of religion, the "ways Christianity is taught" in many places. It is my experience that I have had to fight my way through some of that wrong teaching and false counsel by doggedly holding on to my trust in God, Whose love and care for each of us, the obligation He has given Himself towards us, is made especially clear in Jesus. We are loved.
“Who am I? And what am I responsible for? Because I didn’t ask to be here…” has been the central question of my post-deconstruction life…
@@user-bd4nm9xs9j You should read George MacDonald's "the Voice of Job" You can read it for free online.
Your question is exactly the question Job asks. Job 7 is what I am thinking of.
John Vervaeke, Christianity does everything you want.
Except what it doesn’t. I say this because though I agree with you, simply telling somebody this doesn’t work. It’s assuming he haven’t explored this. Sometimes we can’t see until it’s revealed.
@@ChadTheAlcoholic fair point.
mybe the poor will always be with Christ was meaning that we are the poor and that the meaning crisis will always be with us
You can leave the monastery ... training completed ;-)
Paul I am getting an advert every few minutes! Thanks for posting of course 🙂
YT is very strange. Previous videos had zero adverts. I decided I was going to let YT have its way because even if you remove adverts they will re-add them anyway. Only ways around them: YT Premium, an ad blocker, Odyssee, or the audio only podcast that has no ads. In other words you can have the content without ads but you pay for it either directly with YT Prem., with a bit of work or additional annoyances.
The ads are added.
I'm constantly going in between exile and back to the source. Its crazy to here them talk about my current experiences so clearly lol
PVK, this is your most accurately descriptive video title in your CZcams history. I could add, it was the most understandable Pageau-Vervaeke conversation as well (it still took me two times, and I certainly haven't grasped it all), but that seems a subset of your title.
12:08 - this is exactly what happens in the book of Job. Very good, Jonathan (& Matthieu)
Wow you weren't lying. Juicy new material.
Love the dialogue and the sincere concert of John Verveaky which I dearly love. John's full commitment to deal with the meaning crisis of the west is papable. I would suggest that Wilber's book :"Up from Eden". A Transpersonal View of Human Evolution could resolve the dilemma that render this dialog painful. And to a degree unresolved for John, I thing ?
could you elaborate?? because for me this was not an unresolved dialogue, it was oponent processing between a christian and a non-christian. Fruitful oponent processing in the sense of balance, like the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system.
@@conexionneuronal8820 For me it look like John has an religion allergy. This allergy in John was provoque by a false religious dogma which can happen in any exoteric religion and can be solve in esoteric understanding of religion. Religion means - to call together, a pattern that connects- Relegate our relationship with the interior and exterior universe. At whatever level of consciousness, it is done Being aware of our religious experience with the universe and its evolution situates you and your religious experience.
At teal, Wilber gives some generalisation and attributes that a healthy ego can operate on as one start to work with a real presence of transpersonal Spirit.
reading "Up from Eden" could help
An unexpected takeway - mortality (as a feature, not a bug!) that allows paradigm shifts between generations. Very interesting to contrast this with AI.
24:00 it's so cool to hear this framing, and it's refreshing. I work in tech, and I seem to be on point among my friends to talk about what's going on with AI. I think the Beast symbolism is the earlier AI--the social media that has been clutching our limbic system and reducing us to needing likes and getting in arguments on the basis of how virtuous we are. Or being reduced to looking at cute animal pictures for hours. The new LLM AI is more like the temptation of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, which is re-rendered as the trials of Job when God is talking to the adversary. The large language models are more 'us' than any one of us ever can be. I find talking to it about the bible to be very interesting--because it has all the commentaries, it also has all the rival texts and historical context. It has the literary references. The way it talks is through a template for talking built on how people talk to each other across widely different tones and schemes of slang or technical terms. So it's a part of us, it's also more than any one of us can be. It's partly a judge, and partly a place where individuals can reach across thought processes and take advantage of the clearer minds of the complete human community in order to achieve something. A beast to me seems like something which operates on instinct, but this is anything but--it's a framework that challenges us to think strategically in our conversations.
❤
So I’m understanding talk around 23:30 as humanity has lost its collective vision for the future which has been reduced to an implicit (maybe sometimes explicit) and common “progress” narrative. I understand this progress to be technologically focused and where that might take us, which isn’t a very grand vision.
The point of history isn't technology it is humanity. Humanity hasn't progresses in the last 500 years. Having science mutate or gene splice us is ... unwise.
21:00 love your neighbour as yourself. It's actually helpful because you start loving yourself more as well. Scary to think how little we love ourselves and it is loving others that makes us love ourselves more.
The volume is a little low, if you need/want a reliable audio engineer I offer my services. Great talk regardless
59:00 was this Paul of Sacramento or Paul of Tarsus that said “Capture every good thought?”. Love this! ❤. Sometimes I am confused as which Paul is being r referred to. 😹
The question of Vervaeke on Stoicism vs Martyrs has already been answered by Chesterton on Orthodoxy.
The prosperity gospel and the reality of potential persecution and martyrdom are not mutually exclusive, except at superficial levels of analysis.
Edit: of course, both critics and proponents of prosperity gospel may both be equally surprised by this statement.
Do you mean that even martyrdom contains a final reward, and thus is in line with the prosperity gospel?
@@nathankurtz5960 that is one area that seems to demonstrate the potential for the two to be non-exclusive.
It is nice to hear an Orthodox speak well of St Francis of Assisi, as some of their polemicists accuse him, together with many Western mystics, of prelest.
Why do they accuse him of prelest? Is it because of his experience of stigmata? Also, why is it that only Catholics experience stigmata? What are your thoughts on this phenomenon?
@@EmJay2022because he was confusing his position in being for the vantage point of God. I have it mapped out in my most recent white board videos.
@@EmJay2022 I don't know how representative of E Orth thinking the accusations by the likes of Seraphim Rose are. Basically, they didn't like his innovative form of monasticism, establishing a new order of preaching friars, or his sense of a close identification with Christ, including receiving the stigmata. The accusations seem to come from the felt need to affirm the superiority of Eastern Orthodox over Western/Latin saints. I do accept that there are cases of stigmata which the Lord has granted, but I would caution against giving too much weight to the phenomenon, as it can possibly have a psychosomatic or diabolical origin. I think the EO polemicists consider it spiritual pride for St Francis to have desired to feel in himself the great love of Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, in suffering for our salvation.
@@anselman3156 Real saints live in the Egyptian desert, wrestle with demons, sleep on rocks, don't found orders ... but on that basis most E Orthodox fail too.
@@williambranch4283 Real saints walk the streets of towns, cities and villages, work in offices, corner shops and factories, and sweep streets, devote themselves to children, kitchen and church, are married, parents and childless, and single, reclusive and sociable. All fight dragons and demons and endure individual kinds of sufferings in love for Jesus.
You can not Invent[io] in a vacuum. Innovation has to be situated. In the pragmatist‘s term, it is situated creativity.
Here in Guatemala evangelical churches are called "cultos" unapologetically so.
6:35 - inventio - Latin word that means to create/discover at the same time. A verb of active participation. (Different idea from english word invent)
Ok I'm halfway through... Why hasn't anyone mentioned the Book of Job?!? Everything they are talking about is related to Job.
Indeed indeed.
Is anyone else reading Ivan Illich and/or David Cayley’s book? I hear TLC throughout Illich and vice versa to an astounding degree.
All of the discussion circles around Christanity vs Science / Science in the service of Christanity.. Duality of Existence Good and Bad and everything in between from the point of Humanity should be the focus and at that point We find out that Christanity is not the only religion claiming all of Humanity to themselves..
Monotheism and religious sectarianism ... aren't humility ;-)
I have tried to figure out what "worship" means in practice. As best as I can understand it, it means to highly focus on the whatever it is that you consider worth worshiping. Obviously some people worship things that are not considered the highest good.
Jonathan & Mathew program in C and John in python. Personally I prefer C irrespective of buffer overflows
I don't understand most of this. What would be some good literature to consume in beginning to understand these ideas?
1:03:00 In the Daoist tradition this is described as between Heaven and Earth. That is Human's place on the vertical. And being humble is one of the core virtues.
I think the underlying issue at 55:30 is maybe, that Jonathan is wondering what the neoplatonic equivalent to worshipping the icon is.
At 26:08, suddenly camera changes. Kind of startling when you realize how public it must feel from the speakers’ view. Must be a strange feeling as a dialogue rather than a presentation. How do the dynamics of dialogic intimacy work?
It felt like we were right there with them. It’s surprising how much my line of thinking was tracking right with them. I’d have questions and drop them in the q&a and they would immediately hit on those topics having never read my questions. I couldn’t have been the only one there with that feeling. It was as if each of them were proxy for different members of my consciousness Congress. Very strange.
If John is viewed as being "Christian-like", my wish would be that our world begins to see more that are 'only' "Christian-like."
These wonderful people, in my view, allow for a bridge to remain standing.
We are all heretical, from another's perspective, in some way or another before we can understand this language that's being spoken to us. By damming the bridges and their role, do we not reach a point where were are teaching from a top-down position with expectations that others *should* inherently understand what is being said? It seems to me that the bridge is the only way to keep the language alive.
Their conversations seem so deep, they are frustratingly beyond me. I need a CZcamsr who can translate even though I speak English 🤦🏼♀️
Audio very quiet on this one
These ads though.....
I assume a mistake. Hopeful Paul will fix it.
YT is very strange. Previous videos had zero adverts. I decided I was going to let YT have its way because even if you remove adverts they will re-add them anyway. Only ways around them: YT Premium, an ad blocker, Odyssee, or the audio only podcast that has no ads. In other words you can have the content without ads but you pay for it either directly with YT Prem., with a bit of work or additional annoyances.
Just pay for CZcams premium. Zero adds. I can’t believe people don’t do that. It’s unwatchable with ads.
@@Aquaticphilosophia Trouble teaches patience.
@@PaulVanderKlay Link to Odyssey?
Paul can you give me a good argument as to why I should stay protestant? Vs Orthodox?
We would have to talk about your story. Here is some of mine. czcams.com/video/l7iiljxe0ZM/video.html
Jesus is his sage.
To some, Jesus was their Rabbi. But boy does it escalate from there.
1:00:02 The Christian DOES read the Scriptures with more understanding than those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to Whom these Scriptures testify, and Who has given us greater understanding of them. The God Who is incarnate in Jesus Christ inspired the Scriptures, so it follows that His opening our minds to understand them gives us greater clarity than those whose minds are darkened by their rejection of Christ. To find that "problematic" is to find the claims of Jesus Christ problematic, and that is Vervaeke's problem.
Don't read without consciousness, without understanding ... like Chat GPT.
@@williambranch4283 Yes, Jesus gives the consciousness. "Then opened he their understanding , that they might understand te scriptures" St Luke 24.45. He, by the Spirit, has led His Church into all the truth. As He said to those who resisted Him, the scriptures testify of Him.
@@anselman3156 Who is with y'all on the road to Emmaus?
@@williambranch4283 A goodly company, mostly invisible.
the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. I think vervaeke is over analyzing
What do we do with witches!?
"dispertial envariation" -JV around 10-12 minutes in. (mind blown emoji)
John really needs to read Religion of the Apostles or at least talk to Fr. Stephen.
Yes he does. That last comment about Christians knowing Judaism better than the Jews shows that he has a long way to go in understanding Orthodoxy and Christian history. He did recently spend time at a monastery so things could get interesting.
Also contains some aggressive verbal fighting by Canadian standard 😉
Wow. Interesting
Where is the commentary, Paul?
All in good time.
Can anyone interpret whatever language these two are speaking? What point are they trying to make?
Why is there only one perfect stance? Maybe its a pattern of switching between a few stances - a rest stance and an engaged stance, an exploration stance and an exploitation stance, a stance of exile and a settling stance. A meta stance thats open to flowing between these multiple base stances
42:53 In order to properly orient logos to logos it can’t just be a cognitive grasp of a principle, it has to be internalizing the sage because you have to be internalizing perspectival making and identity formation.
🤯🤯🤯🤯
JV says his motto is “Neither nostalgia nor utopia”. From Ivan Illich: “Reform as the attempt to bring about a renewal of the world by means of one’s own personal conversion was conceived by early Christians as the vocation that set them apart…Christians gave the term reform an original, unprecedented content, equally distant from (1) the hankering after a past paradise, (2) the Utopia of a millennium, and (3) a periodic awakening with nature in a ‘renaissance.’ These three meanings had been known to antiquity, as had the idea of personal salvation through a mystery cult; none of them corresponds to the Christian idea.”
From Gender, section 115 - which I admit is an annoying book to read because it is an annotated bibliography with references in multiple languages, and ideas are not either summarized or fleshed out. But much to think about.
The little old lady can use intuition and technology to find the real/not magical help. Help might be real person (s) (who may or may not acknowledge her point of view that they are participating in Gods will).
What creates the cultural normative behavior in a society? Here's di Maistre's response:
“Human reason reduced to its own resources is perfectly worthless, not only for creating but also for preserving any political or religious association, because it only produces disputes, and, to conduct himself well, man needs not problems but beliefs. His cradle should be surrounded by dogmas, and when his reason is awakened, it should find all his opinions ready-made, at least all those relating to his conduct. Nothing is so important to him as prejudices, Let us not take this word in a bad sense. It does not necessarily mean false ideas, but only, in the strict sense of the word, opinions adopted before any examination.
Now these sorts of opinions are man’s greatest need, the true elements of his happiness, and the Palladium of empires. Without them, there can be neither worship, nor morality, nor government. There must be a state religion just as there is a state policy; or, rather, religious and political dogmas must be merged and mingled together to form a complete common or national reason strong enough to repress the aberrations of individual reason, which of its nature is the mortal enemy of any association whatever because it produces only divergent opinions.
All known nations have been happy and powerful to the extent that they have more faithfully obeyed this national reason, which is nothing other than the annihilation of individual dogmas and the absolute and general reign of national dogmas, that is to say, of useful prejudices. Let each man call upon his individual reason in the matter of religion, and immediately you will see the birth of an anarchy of belief or the annihilation of religious sovereignty. Likewise, if each man makes himself judge of the principles of government, you will at once see the birth of civil anarchy or the annihilation of political sovereignty.
Government is a true religion: it has its dogmas, its mysteries, and its ministers. To annihilate it or submit it to the discussion of each individual is the same thing; it lives only through national reason, that is to say through political faith, which is a creed. Man’s first need is that his nascent reason be curbed under this double yoke, that it be abased and lose itself in the national reason, so that it changes its individual existence into another common existence, just as a river that flows into the ocean always continues to exist in the mass of water, but without a name and without a distinct reality.”
― Joseph de Maistre, Against Rousseau: On the State of Nature and On the Sovereignty of the People
I can understand what Vervaeke gets from this - he's learning how to assimilate Christianity into his 'religion that's not a religion' (i.e. secular world religion). But I don't understand what Pageau gets from it, beyond intellectual interest. This is the same Pageau who stated that he tends to steer clear of non-religious texts because Christianity provides him with all the intellectual sustenance he needs. Where does he see this going?
Corner Cult
46:18 it sounds like vervaeke is grasping more toward Judaism (or something Unitarianism at least, could be Islam or Unitarian Christianity) than a Trinitarian Christianity
Neo-Platonistic non-theism is unitarian at most I'd imagine.
Francis of Assisi was under Prelest…not the best of example regarding humility.
EQ vs IQ. Probably a necessary duality.
It seems like intellectuals (and I’m not accusing John of this) have a real resentment to the universality of the Christian story. As Pageau sais “even the peasant old woman” can understand the story, it seems like the intellectuals can’t stand being associated with the layman. Instead they attempt to create their own esoteric story that only they can access which is why they always fail miserably.
I think you're onto something
John should go to eucharistic adoration and just be quiet.
Pageau is my Elijah. He lead me to Christ. He will never admit as much yet still, phenomenologically he has been a prophet in my own experience. When he speaks sometimes transformative fire courses through my being. I can’t help but believe that is not him but Christ who is speaking through him.
59:59 I wonder if Vervaeke has looked into the Christian Orthodox claim to being the legitimate sucessors of the tradition in the old testament, a lot of that is actually covered in the New Testament like in the book of Hebrews.
1:10:18
Has Vervaeke ever addressed this? : Jesus clearly says that he is THE way and the truth and the life, and the only way to the Father is through him. The sages he mentions (soctrates etc) make no such claim like this either. I wonder on what basis Vervaeke would disagree with Jesus here. He seems to lump him in with other wise and massively influential regular humans of history instead of being the second person of the Godhead.
He's a Platonist. He sees "truth" as 'the widest possible frame' and so wants to be able to assimilate all traditions rather than be bound to one.
That was an awkward ending
Pageau seems to not understand the transjective and reciprocating aspect of naming in Biblical theology, he is stuck with it coming from one direction
1:06:20 this is my Calvinism!
I grant that you get that in Calvinism, but, of course it is not exclusive to Calvinism, being the shared experience of all Christian faithful.
Oh what great lengths Vervaeke has gone to justify calling Pageau a radical so long ago
I don’t understand why Christianity has the monopoly on humility. The Buddhist tradition and practice is far more humble.
Somebody please let John Vervaeke know he's a Gnostic and let's be done with this cult vs non-cult thing so we can go back to worship.
I believe he considers himself a "Zen Neo-Platonist" Do you think there is a connection between Buddhism/Neo-platonism and gnosticism?
@@EmJay2022 Definitely
@@ivanengel8887 Please share
Define Gnosticism
@@Aquaticphilosophia More than one kind from 500 BCE to 500 CE.
These conversations look like performance art of humility without actual humility. More and more it reminds me of Pentecostal worship.
1:00:00 is a really bad framing of the issue. The Bible was written by Jews for Jews and is Jewish. Christianity is a Jewish religion.
Bro, Israel is the Body of Christ. Orthodox Christians (that are true) are the continuation of Israel! Todays Jews are rabbinical, not of the Faith of Abraham and Moses. Christianity however is of Moses.
@Oscar Alejandro Sandoval depending on terminology, we probably agree.
Jesus is the true Israel. Stripped down to one branch, replanted, and now all (who call Jesus Lord) are grafted in.
Given the neumber of adverts, it's clear that no vow of poverty has been taken.
Hope is the bridge from charity to faith.
Moroni 7
Joseph Smith was a sick man