MINERALITY MYTH - THE WINE EXPERIENCE
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Vineyards, Rocks, and Soils: The Wine Lover's Guide to Geology:
www.amazon.com/Vineyards-Rock...
Today I am going to talk about a controversial topic in the wine industry even though the science is pretty clear on the topic. I am going to dismantle the favorite term of many sommeliers, journalists and wine buyers: Minerality. If you type the term „minerality“ into an online dictionary you will get this result: The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. So why is the term not in the dictionaries?
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First of all, congrats to Konstantin on the success of this channel. It’s so well-deserved, and I always enjoy how you’re striking a balance of geeking out with your mad wine skills while not taking it all too seriously.
As for this topic, I know that there is fashion in the descriptors people use for wines, but I don’t at all get why it’s equally fashionable for some experts to be hating on the term “minerality”
The whole point to the argument seems to be that it’s invalid (or at least frowned upon) to use that particular term because there is not enough mineral contents in a wine to actually taste it.
By that logic, if I said that there is wet wool in my Chenin Blanc, I’m sure a scientist would be able to tell me that the amount of sheep in the wine is too small for me to actually taste that either. And that’s because most of the descriptors are metaphors anyway.
I think it’s bang on that the term is being used a lot in relation to high acid, less opulent wines, where the flavours are subtle but still lingering. So might a reason for the increased popularity of the descriptor be that preferences are moving in that direction? Think PYCM compared to an old school, buttery Meursault.
Also, for a wine maker to advertise his or her wines coming from stony fields, that doesn’t necessarily imply that those stones must be beneficial in terms of their taste (or lack thereof) directly rubbing off on the wine. Heat retention and drainage very much does affect taste.
Anyway, just a few humble thoughts from somebody who loves terms like minerality and salinity :-) Keep those videos coming!
I would actually argue that those metaphors have scientific bases. Most aroma descriptions can be directly linked to the presence of common compounds between the “metaphorical” objects and the wine being tasted itself. At least that is my opinion from my experience with “Le Nez du vin” wherein most descriptions and aroma vials content important compounds found in wine
@@feabterminator6326 yes, that's why you can smell certain fruits and certain natural things in wine, leather doesn't just come to be, you have to tan it to make it into what it is and the tanning process often uses vegetable tannins to achieve that. those are chemicals that can show up in a wine.
I think it’s a helpful buzz word for Sommeliers to use to excite and entice everyday consumers. “When I eat oysters, I love to drink Chablis with them because of the ancient oyster shell fossils found throughout the regions soil showcasing a beautiful minerality that pairs perfectly. Enjoy!” Reminds me of another famous saying “is there any other profession with more bullshit than wine?”
Great video! Very intriguing subject.
I don’t believe that the vines can transport the minerals from the soil/bedrock into the wine so you can smell and identify them. However I do believe there are aromas in wine that people can acosiate to “minerality”. I have many memories of scents that I would put in the “minerality category”. No, a clean stone might not taste of anything but smack two stones together and the dust/smoke will smell, go into an old cave and it will smell, damp clay smells, crushed seashells smell etc. These things are obviously not in your wine but the aromas in a wine can remind you of them. An association is not the same thing as identifying and confirming stuff with your nose. You’re not smelling a fruit bowl with pear, apple and lemon, you’re smelling a wine, let it evoke your memories.
(Just my opinion, cheers!)
This summarise my thoughts on this matter and how he seemed completely dumb, specially when trying to prove hes point by licking a stone. No wonder why he decided to become a CZcamsr.
Beautiful
Pretty simple for me. I use the "minerality" term to describe the smell/aroma of wet rock after rain shower. Can be compared to gun flint also. I don't really attach importance to the scientific origin of this aroma, I rather note its presence quite simply.
Makes sense
So why not say "smells like wet rocks" or "gun flint"? Would be less confusing
I agree, I also find it as a way to describe some texture of the wine. But in the end, as you say, is a term "to describe", just as we use the term "tomato leaf", or "black peppercorn", when there's obviously none of these on the wine.
@@134679rap my point being, it's easier to understand "tomato leaf" or "wet rocks" instead of "minerality". Especially since there's no agreed definition of meaning.
@@MK-fj8xf It's not easier to understand.
It was obvious to me all along vines do not suck up minerals and transfer them into the berries. However once it dawned on me there are no petals, strawberries, leather, pepper, cat pee (you name it) in wine either, I gave up on my resistance against using the term.
The big difference ist that these things actually smell.
I think metaphors as sensory descriptors are what a consumer and professionals expect and absolutely needed for us non-scientific types. There is no “rose petals” in a boti of Barolo, but saying the concentration of cis-rose oxide B damascenone geraniol nerol is lovely and adds to the nose of this wine just doesn’t flow off the tongue 😉😁😁😉. Really very much enjoy your videos. 👍👍👍
Thank you! Like I say: Everyone should use their preferred terms but they should undestand what they mean.
Minerality has always sounded more like a descriptor of structural/textural elements rather than flavour or aroma. Now I'm intrigued as to whether that's always been succinic acid content
Great video
I vote for introducing sunny to the wine tasting vocabulary! 🌞
"A metaphor for something that is difficult to describe." I like it!
I often describe some of my favorite wines as "slate" and "stoney" and "flinty" and "Earthy." This video was excellent.
KB thanks for your scientific informed scepticism about so many things which does not detract from the fun and romanticism of wine. A bit of imagination and eloquent
Hallelujah! Although I intuitively suspected that connection between soil composition and "minerality" in wine is extremely weak, this video nailed it. On the other hand, I found the term "minerality" very useful to describe that weak battery-licking quartz-crushing sensation of saltines, bitterness, and acidity.
I found that I ended up talking about minerality in some wine when I also found some "savouriness" in it, so maybe associated to salt rather than a rock itself. Still, "minerality" feels the best word to describe it (thanks to the fact that is vague) as I wouldnt say salty.
Regardless of its lack of objective connection to minerals, 'minerality' just seems to be a good descriptor from a phenomenological perspective. I.e. people have a strong intuition of how minerality smells and tastes like. Tasting is a completely phenomenological event, you're describing the tastes and aromas how you perceive them, with the words that you see best fit.
I don't think there's any cheesecake in the soil where the grapes of the wine I had yesterday was grown on, but that seemed like a great way to describe it because that was what I smelled. Conversely, you might smell citric acid in the wine and say "this wine is citrusy!", but are you actually smelling citrus? No, you're smelling an acid that has a connection to the word (and concept) 'citrus' in your mind. In like manner, you can smell things that are not exactly minerals, but that happen to occur in places, foods or the like that you associate with the word "mineral". Many people in the comments have expressed examples such as a wet cave, smell of a rock after rain and wet clay. Whatever the connecting molecule or a collection of molecules that are objectively speaking present in the wine, that people associate with the word 'minerality', it really won't be any different from what a citric acid is to the word 'citrus'. It's a description, not a lab test that has to come up with a presence of a molecule that happens to have a taxonomical connection to how science describes the concept of a 'mineral'.
That is true. There are some flavor molecules though that can be linked to certain fruits (citrus), porducts (milk), spices (Vanilla) etc that can be identified in wine. This is not the case for minerals.
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine But it is the case for minerals if you expand your list of concepts from "fruits, products and spices" to include "places" (wet caves) as well! I just find it trivial to exclude it from the list.
Minerals are present in caves (and more importantly people associate them with caves). Specific "wet cave" flavour compounds are present in caves. People perceive "wet cave" flavour compounds as "mineraly".
Unfortunately the point of the conversation is missing..
Minerality is widely used by lot many winemakers along the world in order to make a phenomenological connection of their "terroir" with the wines that are produced there. It is very common simplification when it comes to speak about white wines from vineyards that are cultivated in volcanic soils.
I know that as a wine lover all this "nerdy" information can be from boring to frustrating. But as an enologist, i would rather leave scientific research to deliver some handy objective facts about the wine i love rather to leave marketing experts do their magic 🙂
This misses the point. It's the direct claims of a link with taste and soil structures. It's one thing to have suggestions of minerality, but another to directly associate it with those soils.
I do not understand this recent battle against the term "minerality" that seems to be quite popular in the wine world. For me it is a shortcut to refer to a quite varied taste in wine, mixing sapididy and different types of undertoned spiciness. It is a mix that can remind the taste that we associate to minerals. Clearly, it does not have to be taken literally, most terms we use to describe wines are metaphors: bright, vertical, elegant, etc. On the other hand, I have tasted wines from volcanic regions (the Vulture area in Italy is a classical example), where the sulfur taste (and other minerals) are clearly transferred to the wine, but I agree these are quite extreme cases.
Like I say in the video: Continue to use it but know what it means.
Excellent exposition on "minerality" and related physical/geologic interactions between vineyard soils and wine. I grew up drinking well water that was very high in minerals, mostly iron and calcium, so I've been wondering if that has obscured my ability to taste "minerals" in wine. You've settled that for me--thanks--I'm not handicapped in that regard, I guess. And, yes, I too felt that most wine reviews that use the term "minerality" were really describing the interaction of acidity and wine flavor compounds.
The one thing notably missing from your video was microbiome considerations. A year or two ago, I read a viticulture/oenology science paper that seemed to suggest that wine critic reviews tying wine taste to vineyard soils was the result of the influence of a particular soil's microbiome (including yeasts, of course) that make their way onto grapes (and then affect the wine produced). That is, the microbiome of a limestone soil affects a wine in a particular way that is different from that same wine made from vines grown on a slate soil, with it's particular microbiome. Have you also come across this idea and what's your take?
Thank you! I think the microbiome is relevant when it comes to Terroir rather than minerality. I made a whole video on Terroir but did not go into much detail on microbes.
Wow! I have my WSET-3, and you just taught me something I never new. Thank you.
I use the term for the description of the smell of fresh on rocks. But it's very cool to know that it's not actual minerality. I guess it's just like most other descriptions. There isn't blackberries, cassis, leather and spices in the wine, just the aromas of them.
Of course minerality is a conventional terming. Which means in my opinion the freshness of creek or even mountain creek when you are near it. In palate it's even more complex but understandable for consumers. There are plenty of such termings in tasting. There is no more conventional terming as "forest floor" as you used in clip about pinot noir. But it did not disturb you. Thank you for understanding.
I think his point is that ‘minerality’ will be used by people in relation to the origin of the wine and the geology of the vineyard, when the ‘flavor’ of ‘minerality’ (likely) does not correlate to that at all. As he said, you can use it as a descriptor for those flavor notes of acidity, free sulphate and succinic acid (or whatever else tastes of ‘mineral’ to you), but to do it on the basis of the rocks it grew on is just posturing rather than based on the flavors the wine might actually be giving you (unless it coincidently happens to have those flavors, independent of the geology).
But, the difference is that forest floor is an actual recognisable smell. Minerals don’t smell.
depending on the nature of the humus some terpenes secreted by mycelium and other soil micro-organisms can be imported by the plant. there is also esther formation during fermentation.
I very much enjoy your channel, and have learned a great deal. Thank you! I must disagree on one point, though. I am Piemontese, but love the southern Italian and Sicilian whites. The eggplant in Sicily tastes like no other, and it resembles the ‘volcanic’ whites of the area. There is no point in eating Pasta alla Norma anywhere else I the world, it just doesn’t taste as good. I understand the science of mineral uptake in vines, I did my Masters in biochemistry, so I am being subjective. But to me it is real and reproducible. It is just that the taste of many fruits and vegetables there are very similar to the wines, and I’m going with minerality/volcanic. There you can truly appreciate the phrase ‘if it grows together, it goes together’…
Yes that is true - what grows together goes together. But how do you separate soil, climate, agriculture etc from each other. It could also be due to the climate
Thank you for your video, I think there're many tasting notes that we perceive in wine that they're not what we think they are.
However, for me, minerality would be the expression of a wine from a certain region, and that is the unique taste you feel when you taste a wine from South Africa, Argentina or Spain for example.
I do believe a region can have influence in the taste of wine. Sometimes the freshness, earthiness, herbs, somehow could be perceived whether in smell or taste, not saying they put it inside the wine, neither I'm saying the grape carries all these aspects inside, but I think each region can definitely influence in the taste of wine, IN A MINERAL WAY.
For example, I've tasted some Argentinian wines (specially not aged in too much wood) that has a particular taste that give us the sensation of the region, the forest floor, grass, under bushes, that is mineral for me, the UNIQUE particular taste of a wine that shifts you towards the landscape. And that unique sensation cannot be felt in other wines, therefore, these tasting notes shouldn't be a trick of fermentation or aging.
I agree that there are huge differences in taste depending on where the same kind of grape ripens.
However, the fact that your definition of minerality differs completely from what other people express here kind of proves his point.
When a wine taste like green apple, cranberry or black pepper the taste is quite distinct and everybody knows exactly what you are are talking about. But by saying my wine tastes mineral, somebody thinks it tastes like licking a wet rock, the second person might think about soil and you think about Argentina.
I use the term as well and at home we know what the other person is referring to. So I was wondering why Konstantin is having so many problems with this term. But seeing the comments below this video explains that very well - maybe even better than the video :)
You said it perfectly in the end of the video. Minerality is a very abstract description as many other terms in wine tasting are. A wine beign leathery does not imply the use of leather in the wine making process
Great video, as a Wine Educator I am constantly wrestling with many overused, vague descriptive terms when tasting and talking about wine. (Not very helpful when trying to "demystify" wine for my customers!) I do think that a more acidic wine can kind of be described as having a certain "minerality", but it's not really helpful as a flavor descriptive. One of my favorite words as an aroma descriptive term, though, is "petrichor", which is from the Greek for simply "wet rock". More specifically, this refers to the smell of warm rock (or even asphalt!) after a sudden summer rain. We've all experienced it, and occasionally I will encounter it in certain reds and red blends. I've almost come to expect it in some of the great red wines of Priorat in Spain. Please keep making these vids, I will recommend them to my wine classes going forward!
Thank you for sharing. I will add Petrichor to my vocabulary.
Petrichor is kinda deceptive term since it is caused by bacteria and algae releasing odors in the air after mist or rain, so it doesn't mean inorganic earth but rather organic lifeforms..
Thank you for this video Konstantin, it was interesting to watch.
I enjoyed a glass of wine at a wine bar recently but the lovely American waitress described the red wine as "its a fun wine" which left me feeling empty within and I left and never returned.
I associate minerality to the smell of a creek with round pebbles in the bottom and the bank. Others use it differently depending on their experiences. There is a lot of subjectivity on this, as well as a strong link to our own experiences. Certainly alkaline and alkaline earth elements do not smell or taste, other than saltiness, but I think we have to think more on using images or synonymous to represent what we feel.
Thank you for clearing that up Konstantin, I have always kind of known what to expect from that note without knowing what exactly it means. My two take aways (correct me if I am wrong) are that the term is used, for example, in one of the following cases: 1) when something like salinity is detected; and 2) when there is an absence of organic (loamy, grassy etc.) aroma. Cheers, prost 🥂
Tasting minerals in wine is okay, but you shouldn't think it comes from the fact those deposits were in the ground. I have a Feteasca Neagra I like to drink, that has a crushed rock/stones note to it, but I don't believe for one second it is because there were some loose stones in the ground. I've tasted cabernet with an iron like taste before, but I didn't for one second think it was because there was an iron deposit nearby. We just try to make sense of what we smell and taste and maybe use a catchall "minerals", but that doesn't mean we infer that it comes from the soil composition. If i feel blackberries in a wine, it isn't because blackberries were used to fertilise the soil the vines grew in.
Consider this. You talk about the (not) flavor of the stone, and I think you are right that these mysterious minerals absorbed by the roots of the vine, hardly arrive inside the grapes, then managing to stand out in the juice squeezed.
But what you can instead perceive is contained not in the hard rock, but in its layer of disaggregation, ie in the dust on the surface of the ground (this "organic" layer, colonized by a microbial flora, a "microbiota", which varies from land to land, from place to place), these microorganisms are transported by the wind on the grape skin itself.
Have you ever heard those quaint smells of earth wet after the rain? (as well as those of undergrowth can be familiar).
In certain vinifications, especially in the old world, it is still used to make spontaneous fermentation, with indigenous yeasts, those present naturally on the peel of the grape. It is mainly in these types of wines that you can feel like aromatic hints that belong neither to the fruit, nor to the wood of the barrel, but that are precisely yeasts, and that they can remember just the smell of the land, wet, from which they come.
Try any Vernaccia of Oristano (this is just an example) and re-evaluates the myth.
Considera questo. Tu parli del (non) sapore della pietra, e penso tu abbia ragione che, questi misteriosi minerali assorbiti dalle radici della vite, difficilmente arrivano fin dentro gli acini d'uva, riuscendo poi a distinguersi nel succo spremuto.
Ma quello che puoi invece percepire è contenuto non nella dura roccia, ma nel suo strato di disfacimento, cioè nella polvere sulla superficie del terreno (quello strato "organico", colonizzato da una flora microbica, un "microbiota", che varia da terreno a terreno, da luogo a luogo), questi microrganismi vengono trasportati dal vento sulla buccia dell'uva stessa.
Hai mai sentito quei caratteristici odori di terra bagnata dopo la pioggia? (così come possono essere familiari quelli di sottobosco).
In certe vinificazioni, soprattutto nel vecchio mondo, si usa fare ancora la fermentazione spontanea, con i lieviti indigeni, quelli presenti spontaneamente sulle bucce dell'uva. E' soprattutto in questi tipi di vini che puoi avvertire dei sentori che non appartengono né al frutto, né al legno della botte, ma che sono proprio dei lieviti, e che possono ricordarti proprio l'odore della terra bagnata da cui provengono.
Prova una qualunque Vernaccia di Oristano (questo è solo un esempio) e rivaluta il mito.
Thank you for your comment. The smell after a rain is called petrichor and it is mainly Geosmin which is produced by various algae living on the ground. That this smell makes its way into the wine is fairly unlikely as many things would then smell like Geosmin. The effect that you are describing does happen though with flavors like Eukalyptus that can make its way into wine.
Exactly! That is why pedology is much more constructive and relevant than straight geology to explain some flavors present in wine that might come from the soil.
Wow that was very educational ... I must say I do use the term minerality (perhaps as a catch all) for savory/salty drying components with a wet rock after a rainfall type nose ... but loved hearing the science and geology. As always thank you
Glad it was helpful!
I use the term quite a lot, mostly for non fruity white wine. I think of it as you say as a metaphor, or rather a convention in describing wine: many people broadly agree on or at least understand what is meant by it.
Yes, I understand what people mean by the term!
Hi Konstantin,
I just recently came across your channel and have really appreciated your efforts to go behind wine buzz words and explain in more detail the history, economics and science behind wine. Interesting to learn the minerals in the soil have little if any impact on the wine’s flavor. I just ordered the book you suggested to learn more. For me personally, the term minerality just worked to describe the savory earthy flavors I love in Loire Valley Sauvignon Blancs from Sancerre and Pouilly Fumé. If you avoid the term minerality, how do you prefer to describe that type of flavor? Can minerality not be used the way “leather” is in describing that flavor in wines? I’m a long time enthusiast who has been thinking about joining a wine program like WSET. If you have any suggestions on which program is best for beginners or have already made a video on this I’d love to know. Thanks for a great channel.
NIce summary, Konstantin. Thank you .
I used to use it until I realised that it wasn't very helpful, because, as you have so succinctly described, what does it actually mean?
I think it is used as a shorthand to help describe terroir. For instance, I remember going to a WSET Chablis tasting in London a few years ago and, of course, the very distinctive, fossil-strewn, limestone soil is often given prominence when describing a wine which has very high acidity. When I asked about it, the explanation given was to do with the strange relationship whereby soils with higher alkalinity seem to help give wines with high acidity. Isn't that a function of the amount of sunshine in an area north of Paris, I asked? The answer came back that it was a "complex relationship"...
As always a fantastic video, thank you and keep them coming
Thanks, will do!
Has anyone ever considered that the descriptive term minerality is borrowed from the wide range of commercially available mineral water?
There is a huge variety out there, and the concentration of dissolved elements contributes to the softness, hardness and ultimately the ‘flavor’ of the water. Even though chemically it is still two hydrogens and one oxygen. I’ve dined at michelin starred restaurants that propose water pairings to accompany a gastronomic menu, and each water was noticeably different than the next due to its mineral composition which derives from the rock type in and around the source. Why then is this not applicable to wine?
I think different waters definitely taste different. Only distilled water is (almost) pure h2o, otherwise there are many more chemical compounds, one only has to taste chlorinated tap water and compare it to even cheap spring water to know there is a difference.
Minerals are dissolved in water as it comes up from the earth. Wine does not come up from the earth it comes from grapes so the earth can not leach minerals directly onto the wine as it can into water.
Excellent information, as a molecular biologist, I am well pleased to hear you discuss about the science behind wine making and tasting. Also, I am very glad to see you succeed - very well deserved my friend !
Very lucid and informative. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Have never used the word minerality in smell or taste of wine but have heard the term used many times from a master of wine.I have used the term earthy or even cement when tasting a wine so if this is minerality then there it is.Minerals may not be in the wine but it is the perception of that element in the wine. As we all taste different elements in the same wine.
Yes, the term is still widerly used but I try to avoid it.
Lovely ! Thank you for sharing your insight :)
Glad it was helpful!
I've probably been misusing this term for some time now, but for me, , minerality is the term i tend to lean on when trying to describe a certain mouth feel i get somewhere in the middle/finish of a sip. It tends to be something I look for when picking a better wine; white wine in particular for me. My example would be the difference in a cheap Sauvignon blanc which is acidic and "sharp" in my mouth and maybe a more expensive Sancerre (also Sauv Blc) which, in between the flavor notes, has a smoother mouth feel and a brine-like support to the flavors from start to finish. This also could be nonsense, it just helps me visualize certain flavors my palette is attracted to.... Now i'm craving a glass of Terlan Pinot Bianco!
Whenever I’ve described wines as having ‘high minerality’ it has always been about the flavour rather than tasting a ‘higher concentration of minerals’. I find myself using this expression with low intervention wines and the ‘mineral taste’ reminds me of water from a waterfall. Again, incredibly hard to describe the taste into words
LOVE the explanation!
Glad it was helpful!
Nice try at demystifying the term minerality. As you pointed out it is still very useful as a metaphor.
Absolutely
I think that the purpose of tasting notes has a communication goal. It should be reflecting on a specific smell that is generally known about. When we start using terms like minerality, which lack an actual consensus and it is scientifically misleading, it affects how we communicate with others about wine. I have collected minerals and been to mines since I was 6 years old and I haven’t experienced a single wine that takes me to a “mineral” character. In fact, ever since I heard the term I’ve been trying to find sources to help me understand what people mean by minerally. I have had wines that have forest floor, wet soil, and pine forest aromas and palate but I would not say that is minerally… Maybe it would be a good idea to see who coined the term and what that person was describing when the person coined “minerality”. I think words stick because big and famous producers start using it and now everyone believes it’s an actual thing. The fact that the term is so ambiguous means that the term is not reliable… I’d rather tell a my mom that the wine has a wet carpet or Forrest floor aroma (which is more specific) than to use a term no one but me will understand.
Working in a wine store, I encounter "minerality" quite often, both when testing new wines in the store as well as helping customers. For me, minerality is the smell you get when standing in a still summer rain on a bare cliff. Sounds very specific I know, but there is a very specific scent produced when the rain hits the bare rock. And summer rain (at least the one romantized in our heads) typically involve very little wind, so the scent isn't blown away by the wind and gets more prominent. So whenever a customers asks what on earth minerality means, I just say your typical summer rain on a cliff, and they all go a-ha!
If it's a certain chemical compounds responsible for this - produced by other factors such as grape variety, soil drainage, climate etc - then "minerality" still makes sense once you make that link to the summer rain on a bare cliff and is easy to remember.
It's a similar case with the petrolium smell. The wines do not contain any petrolium (at least I really hope not lol), but there is a petrol-like scent to it. Or someone might say a wine taste a little "green", which is simply an umbrella term for things like mixed herbs, grassy notes, etc.
I always found that term, 'minerality', very vague. I usually think of lead or tea, rather than something that cannot be put into words. Thanks for making this video.
Thanks
I love ur point about sunny flavors -) When I just started my wine journey, I was confused and curious what minerality is, and then I decided to buy a wine with this "minerality" in it. In my neighborhood wine store, it appeared to be Portuguese Vino Verde. From that point on it became my standard for minerality. But when my friends ask me what is it, I can not explain, it s a combination of aromas that u perceive.
Thanks. It is a tricky topic!
Really great video, great analysis, lovin' it! Was assuming the term is en vouge at the moment, and that it describes some factors (like saltiness, acidity) which link to a picture on how people think minerals may taste (even if in real life they don't taste at all). Didn't know though that this term was absolutely not used in earlier times.
So that gives still a chance that the sunny flavours of a wine become en vouge and are used heavily in some 20 or 30 years ;) sunny - hm, that sounds a bilt like warm and sweet, maybe honey, melon, exotic fruits, sugar... ah all the sudden so clear - wine has sunny flavours! and obviously, when the sun shines, part of sunbeams are stored in the grapes, no doubt about that! And then pretty clear that we taste those in the wine! ;)
Yes, only that (a bit like with mineral) sunbeams are not stored in grapes but they are needed to proudce sugar, ripen the grapes and change the flavors.
As the term minerality continually shows up when people are talking about wine, I keep coming back to this video.
Really interesting what The Oxford Companion to Wine said about minerality, as it wasn't even mentioned in the third edition from 2006. It discussed the methods of detecting the mineral contents in wine down to parts per billion, but it didn't even bother to dismiss the notion that you can detect the mineral contents using the human senses.
To me, using the term "minerality" when describing a wine is a copout. It's such a vague term, and very few seem to know what they're actually describing, as they can't clarify what they mean by it. Yes, some wines can have aromas reminiscent of a sea breeze or a warm pavement after a rain shower, but those aroma compounds are not minerals! Also, are wines from warmer climates or made from later picked grapes never minerally? The galets roulés of CdP are a defining characteristic in many vineyards, but those wines (reds in particular) are not as often described as being minerally.
The term's usage is too inconsistent and vague to be of any use in my opinion. There are so many other precise words that can be used to accurately describe a wine, so I get frustrated that so many people who communicate about wine keep using a word that can lead to so much confusion.
Man your videos keep on showing up on my CZcams feed. But I like it. Good job 👏🏼
Awesome! Thank you!
Great great video
Very helpful lecture!
From a grateful student in Seoul. :)
Thank you!
Wow, thanks for this simple and sane explanation! In our wine schools here in Russia this term is widespread and never put to doubt, which I've always found strange. Glad that you're also fighting this myth. Now maybe your video will help me to persuade more people. Thanks again!
Very intetesting! In beers, however, the concentation of minerais has influence on mouthfeel, bitterness perception sweetness and other atributes. But defenetly not in a "mineral" taste.
Love the explanation. Please can you do a video on earth aroma in wine.
I am a wine beginner, so I use the terms I get „thaught“. Minerality is one of the most terms you can read and hear in the world of wine 😂 Good to learn about that topic, thx!
Now you know :)
I think communication is choosing certain words that bring out what you hope to describe. If and when the word "sunny" started to be used in describing wine, then, sure, I'll use it. Maybe it's the next step in the evolution of saying a wine tastes "warm" or "hot."
BTW, I also have a rock from the Romani Conti vineyard. Maybe soon, they will put surveillance cameras all around. LOL.
They should put up some cameras!
Great Topic revised. Wanna learn more on tasting the level of Alcohol.
Thank you Konstantin for a very interesting episode, as usual. I fully agree with you but have troubles describing wines without using "minerality" as a term. How would you, for exemple, describe the characteristics of a etna rosso?
I never use the term "minerality" and living in France I feel sun, rain, wine making technique, bottling, temperature control especially during transport to the consumer; and serving temperature, and reaction with air (oxyben and other gases) at the time of consumption are all more important to the taste of a wine than minerals! However, I did study chemistry and worked in food chemistry (Coca-Cola) and indiustiral chemisty (Exxon) and did some study in nuclear chemistry and salt and calcium are minerals that definitely have taste! It could be that some people have the ability to detect very low levels of minerals! Salt is a flavor accentuator (it enhanses the taste of foods and beverages!) So it is possible that some people may be able to detect either the minerals themselves or the chemical compounds that are formed by these minerals (even at very low levels) It also could be similar to the effect of iron (which is a mineral) We clearly know what blood tastes like because of the reaction the iron has with taste receptors in our mouth, so one could imagine that certain people may be able to either detect the minerals themselves or the chemical compounds formed which contain minerals or a reaction similar to iron! Potasium has a taste like in KCL Potassium Cloride! it is used in many beverages for athletes to give them much needed K+! It definitely has a taste, very different from Sodium Chloride (regular salt) however if you tried to taste or eat pure potassium or sodium it would be a horrible mistake as these minerals react with water liberating hydrogen atoms violently! In other words they explode when in contact with water :) Fun videos of Sodium and Potassium: czcams.com/video/dmcfsEEogxs/video.html
czcams.com/video/oqMN3y8k9So/video.html czcams.com/video/CEC64Bqeajs/video.html
After theses videos you see minerals are nothing to play with :)
I really enjoyed this video! My sister has been doing some research on the California terroir and this has been an interesting and helpful aid! I love the piece of art that you have displayed, do you know who the artist was or where I can find it?
Glad you enjoyed it! This is a table set from a trattoria in Tuscany.
Interesting video! I had a couple questions that came from this though:
1. Do you think the influence of mineral water impacts our sense of the word 'minerality'? It's effervescence/acidity as well as the Calcium and Magnesium increase could affect our sense of the word minerality?
2. For the rock minerals that do dissolve readily into soil solution (e.g. limestone), they should be important to note? I am not super familiar with geology but even less soluble rocks should contribute to the soil solution over longer periods of time? The rock licking came across a little misleading, as for example, you would not taste Mg in a rock however, is the centre of the chlorophyll molecule; could the same be true for more flavourful compounds? It would be dependent of how the plant uses these nutrients as well to affect taste.
Overall i agree though, it plays a smaller part to the wine taste than is mostly led to believe and it was fun to listen to :)
Thanks. On 1. Yes maybe ... No one really knows how this word came to be. On 2. Plants take up nutrients from the soil and the bedrock will change the composition of the available nutrients. The point I was trying to make is that you cannot taste slate in wine for many reasons but the vine is definately not picking up slate through its roots. Instead it takes up nutrients like for example Mg.
I use mineral as a description of aroma. Like we use apple, grass, cherry and so on to describe the aroma, even though none of those are in a wine. It is a aromatic sensation I pick up in wines, usually in whites though, like some Sauvignon Blancs, some Rieslings, some Veltliners, and destinctly in the Valais (Switzerland) variety Petite Arvine.
If it can dissolve in water the vines can import it. Where I grew up there were many artesian wells. A plant watered with artesian water vs distilled water is going to be very different. Even Wal-Mart drinking water adds Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate to enhance flavor. The life cycle of the water from air, to soil to grape has a huge influence on the wine.
Very interesting! But I've certainly had wines that had a minerality aspect to them, but yes maybe used more as a metaphor. But some Spanish Albarino that does indeed have a salty aspect to them as well. But then this leads me on a different tangent. At a wine seminar last year I had a South African winery's wines and they specifically release some wines dependent on the type of rocky soil they are grown on, granite, schist and so on. We tasted a number of these wines from their wine library going back a decade. And you could certainly tell a difference. So I guess my question is why was there such a noticeable difference? Gimmick, marketing ploy? Perhaps there were other differences in the terroir causing the differences. But there really did seem to be noticeable taste differences between these Syrahs.
And you have the Pico Island (Azores - Portugal) vines that grow just а few meters away from the sea being highly exposed to winds naturally carrying sea salt wich produce mainly varieties of white wines usually defined as very mineral due to that sea salt exposure.
Hi! Love you video!
No useless things, just smart talking.
You mentioned that stone that was from romanee conti. Do you know which stone you have at 2:16 ? And from where it is. 🙂 I have to know if I’m thinking right.
Thanks! It is limestone from the Cru "Romanée-Conti".
I know what you were trying to say, but we do actually talk about "the sunny flavour". When we have a very hot vintage like 2018, that is something very real that we talk about, e.g. how that vintage made Chablis much less mineral ;) and much more like white burgundy, less acidity, more butter etc. So, I just think a better comparison is needed
Anyway, great video as always. And this one is definitely something wine people have been fighting over for some time. I actually like the term, and as you rightly point out, it just needs to be used correctly.
Thank you. So you say "this is a very sunny wine!". Thats interesting. I have never heard anyone saying this.
Yes in France we use a lot "vin solaire"
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine Haha, I hope you are joking and know what I meant.
Very informative 👏
Coming from a world of specialty coffee, I can add that a soil makeup can translate into extraordinary variations in coffee flavour profile. Good example is Papua New Guinea. High amounts of glutamic acid find their way into coffee seeds and create this incredible umami flavour. Pairing with caramelised sugars from the roasting process the coffee has a beautiful savoury/sweet character. Really unique and singular expression of “terroir” if you will
You „rocked“ my world. I was using it often, describing a fresh feel to the wine. Absence of fleshy. I always imagined slate when talking about it. Mostly in Rieslings and Rhone wines. I liked stones and its more the feel of minerals and rocks compared to its actual taste. Though, come to think of it, how would rocks in the mouth feel? Not pleasant… It will take me a while to get over your video and understand 😑😎🍷🍷
Glad to hear that the video got you thinking
There are two occasions where I experienced something that may be "mineralogy". The first time was a wine that had been made in concrete tanks and definitely there was strong concrete/limestone flavour. I do search for different wine experiences and while some people might like this, it was not my favourite.
The second time was when I found a Beaujolais from one of the appellations known to produce wine with a noted schist minerality. There was something different about this particular wine that did give it a mineral like taste. Possibly I mistook a grassy taste or pepper taste for the schist minerality that was described. Again, it was not my favourite. However, in general I do like Beaujolais and this experience did not deter me from enjoying other wines from this region.
On another note, what happened to the price of Beaujolais this year? It has doubled!
Minerality.... Do not hesitate and let these people keep talking about mineral wines. Could you make a glass of wine from Toro? You feel the "terracotta" flavour. Toro is a Spanish "Denominación de Origen Protegida" for wines in the province of Zamora. Regarding names of tasting notes, have a look at whisky tasting... for example..."Old bandage". Great tutorial by the way !!!!!. Happy New Year!!!!
I use the term "Mineral" as a description of smell and taste, i.e. "wet rock" and similar, in lack of a better descrption.
As a chemist and plant Biologist, I know that plants only absorb nutrients from the soil, not part of the soil itself... (thank god) :-)
Hi Konstantin, thanks for the video, I've just discovered your channel and found it extremely interesting. My thoughts on minerality. I work in coffee as a roaster. We do a lot of quality control which involve a lot of brewing it as well. Couple of years ago the whole coffee industry was shocked how much of the difference can water quality make in coffee preparation. Especially Calcium, Magnesium and Bicarbonate (Buffor) where found to hugely affect sweetness , acidity and body. The thing is I cant taste the difference in water which has a (for example) 10ppm(!) more bicarbonate , but I can easily pick it up in brewed coffee when preparing a tasting session. The factors like coffee extraction, strength and pH seems not being a case here. Can it be possible that we see something similar in wine. We not tasting minerals but because of them our perception of different compounds change and results in something that we commonly relate to as minerality. Thanks Jakub
Wow, what a topic! You make some incredibly valid points for sure! And the science, well, who can argue with that. I can certainly see why saying things like "minerally" or "mineral driven" or even "minerality" can be.... misleading. It does beg (at least to me) if one were to refrain from using such terms from the sheer lack of those minerals being in the wine should also refrain from saying things such as "flavors of white peaches" or "Grilled game" or even just "gamy"...? Certainly no one in Burgundy is using peaches or wild game during the process, are they...? All in all though, a worthy discussion for sure. I however still identify with the term mineral, steel and flint in a Chablis. And I am sure no one would really find enough steel in the wine from the fermentation process to justify that flavor, would one? I do concede your point, and also wonder if full abandonment of the term is called for. It really is nice to be entitled to our own opinions!! LOL!! I know I like having mine ;-) Thanks Konstantin, for great content and great commentary. It is truly appreciated. Cheers!!
Final taste of grape and wine it is very complex organic process. Less nitrogen on reaping for berries give more full process of maturing. This make biggest difference in mostly case. dry weather is very helpful for example.
Thanks for the video. amazing. Where can I get more info about vinification influences that contribute to the appearance of the succinic acid and other factors during vinification for the minerality characteristics?
Thanks. Not sure... There is are some papers on the topic online.
I use it to talk about that sparkle and cola mouth feel that dry whites such as troken Riesling have.
Minerality is a concept, an idea of a taste, it's like describing the crispy sharpness of air in sub zero temperatures, or the warmth of the sun on your skin, it is a metaphore as you say.
I have no doubt that different soil types impart different flavour expressions in the wine and that you can correlate them. You are not tasting the minerals themselves, but you are among other things tasting what the minerals do to the fruits flavour expression (when fermented and aged). It is well known that different soil types change pH in the wine for example - so it also changes the structure. I think of it like epigenetics. You are not experiencing the genes of a person, but the expression of the genes as a product of environment and complex formation process. I can find specific flavours that remind me of specific minerals that I experience having tasted such as e.g. clay dust or iron or copper which for me clearly has a distinguishable tastes and smells that I know. Petrichor is another clear example of a smell I would characterize as mineral. So you can taste minerality - something with a flavour characterisric of something mineral - though it may not be the same as the mineral that is traceable in the wine. E.g. - I always find a specific tobacco smokiness and when aged powdery rose chin blush note from PN grown on slate - even if it is unoaked.
I think wine people use the term the way non-French interpret 'terrior' to mean 'the ground', and imparts a level of sophistication to the speaker. An amateur geologist, I hate the term used in wine. But it sounds good. And probably better than 'glutathione' or 'sulphites' [not sulphides]. Who's gonna buy wine those? Minerality sounds concrete. ;~} Great vid!
I use the term "minerality" often. I also use terms like "wet wool", "strawberries", "dark fruit", "pepper" and "asparagus" without ever believing that those things actually are present.
The point of the video is to explain that there is no mineral flavor associated with most minerals in the soil. There are flavor compounds responsible for the aroma of the things you are listing and some of these compounds can be identified by analysis in a wine.
Thank you for the scientific explanation. Question: Would you use the word "Schiefernase"(slate nose) for mosel riesling? For me personally this would be an example of what i think of minerality.
A lot of people think of this example. It is not actually based on minerals though. You also have to remember, that Schiefer is classified by the shape of the stone rather than the ingredients of it.
is like placing your tong on a wet rock over the sea being bathed by the sun =minerality
or like the clorine of the swimming pool
Look at all the steep slopes with slate along the Mosel - the slate mostly functions as heat retainer and influences water management in the soil but tasting slate in the wines? No.
In fact, most descriptors in wine are immeasurable, which means that they are subject to a kind of interpretation, which if carried out by a single person can be very different depending on the time of day, humor, food eaten, etc. Therefore, certain mental shortcuts are used, and for unspecified phenomena more general terms that can lead to characteristics. There are many terms in the language of wine that we cannot measure and are ultimately a kind of free description. Examples: flint in Sancerre, or earthiness in Syrah. For me, minerality is a certain aroma that I feel when I am on a mountain river, but I am not a fan of this term, as well as the word terroir, and especially the context in which it is used. I like the term "feel terroir" the most 😉
Yes. You've liberated my young wine tasting experience with trying to understand this. It's nonsence. I've had Azores wines, very pale in terms of fruity flavours but to the vendor it's all about the vulcanic soil and its minerality. But it's not! I didn't finish the 20 euro bottle. It has salinity (salt) yes, but a Laphroaig whisky, being aged in barrels close to the sea, has it to. I don't get the "less flavour = finesse". I'm drinking a Sancerre tonight, I've just finished a Nerthe Ch. Neuf du pape. Minerality? Ok, I can't explain nor taste it, so it's not a sign of quality to me.
Hi Konstantin, I've often described the wines from El Valle de Guadalupe in Ensenada, Mexico as having lots of minerality. Maybe incorrectly, after having watched this video....... but they have a mineral, salinity to them. Does that sound odd? I do enjoy them but that is what I get from many of the wines from that region. Have you tried any wine from that region? I'm interested in your opinion.
I think it generally is used to describe something with a rich complex flavor. I’ve heard some people use “minerality” to describe fresh fruit, like how you can eat one apple that is kind of plain, then you can eat another apple of same variety and the taste can be so much better, apart from just more sugar, more defined flavors that are rich and complex. The best Example I can think of in America would be comparing non-organic del monte bananas to their organic bananas, the organic bananas just taste soo much better. Of course, none of that necessarily means that the better tasting fruit has more minerals in it or anything.
I think people might think of minerality as way to explain why better cared for produce often tastes better. They think that the organic farming practices have a more rich and healthy soil transfers to the fruit itself.
Once again, not sure if any of that would directly explain the better tasting fruit.
My guess is that “minerality” mostly came up in the wine world as a way for the classic and well-established vineyards to give a reason for why their wine is so superior and why it can’t be “imitated”. Kind of adds to the whole “terroir” thing.
Yes, some great points!
I’m curios. Because I love a good Riesling ( Alsace ). IE Trimbach. I’ve always used that term. “ minerality “ for it. Or more so. “ slaty”. ( has wet slate after a rainfall aroma. Would minerality fit in that term?
Minerality, to me is easiest to see in the contrast between Rhine and Mosel Riesling, with the Rhine being more mineral tasting. I never really thought it had much to do with actual minerals, it's more psychologically mineral like than anything else.
For me, minerality was always just a measure for saltiness or to describe different kind of salts (Mg++, Ca++, Na+, etc. ). So I used in the „wrong“ way. But the saltiness depends on the soil right?
Not necessarily. The sensation can have different origins and it might even be linked to sea spray in vineyards close to the shore as far as I know.
Still, in Chablis you can feel metal taste, in white Burgundy iodine, in Bordeaux graphite, in vale de Loire gunpowder...same tastes in the wines from same region.
If these descriptors work for you that is great. It is however not an actual aroma that is extracted from the minerals.
Would you say that a chalky wine is also simply exhibiting a certain acidity, and doesn't actually contain any perceptible about of calcium carbonate, or other chalk type minerals?
No, there should not be any Calcium Carbonate in wine and it does not really have a flavor.
Oops, … eloquence is good, as long as we stay grounded in reality and science
Mineral water (the one that contains a significant amount of mineral residue) undoubtedly has a distinct taste.
I use the term minerality to describe wine. I thought your video was interesting, especially the part about succinic acid. So you're saying the mineral perception we get from wine actually comes from the fermentation process not from the soil? What about different grape varietals? Would some be perceived more mineral than others?
Thanks for you q Eric. It is a very complex topic but as I say in the video: Minerals mostly do not have a smell and taste. Different grapes contain many different flavor compounds that develop during maturation and vinification and aging of the wine impacts the flavor massively. So the flavor does not come from the minerals in the soil but to at least 99% from everything else. You might say that a certain grape variety is more mineral but this really depends on what you call mineral (Citurs, SO2 ...) and not on how "many" minerals are in the wine.
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine I agree that flavours don’t come from minerals in the soil but that doesn’t necessarily mean that a wine can’t remind you of wet concrete, seashells or a cave. As you say, there are so many factors contributing to the flavours of a wine.
Try tasting deionised or distilled water compared to a filtered tap water, there is a very noticeable difference in taste
I have been wondering, isn't it possible that those mineral notes simply come from a tiny bit of dust clinging to the berries, rather than anything that the roots would absorb?
You once said that it's possible to smell the eucalyptus on Australian grapes, so why not the earth?
I use it. I also read that there is none to few influence which minerals really have, before but this does not change the fact, that this taste is definetely there even to extreme extent. I remember a tasting in 2018 when they poured out von Othegraven, Ockfener Bockstein Riesling GG (I think the vintage was 2017 but I am not sure) and the girl who was my girlfriend at this time said, that this wine tastes like sucking on a pebble. She is no wine freak but in my opionion her description was totally right and even if this taste has nothing to do with the stone oder soil on which the grapes grow I do not know how to describe this kind of impression better.
Yes, I also struggle with finding a good descriptor for this sensation. I also know what you mean when you use the term and I think it is fine to use it. But it is important to understand it too!
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine You are right but maybe there is no reason to worry. Sometimes wine smells like horse sweat or even blood but we also know that there is no horse sweat or blood in the wine, so maybe the problem ist not to call a certain taste "mineral" but to tell that this taste comes from the soil the grapes grow on.
@@spiritalex9397 yes, that's an argument. But the thing is minerals normally do not have a smell or taste, horse sweat and blood (to a lesser extent) do. In many cases you can also find the same substance in the wine as in the product we associate it with. Rotundone is the substance that gives pepper its smell and it can also be found in Syrah.
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine Yes, I remember we talked about rotundone in the comments of your syrah video and I have to admit that I did not know that this stuff is also responsible for this horse sweat smell so: Thank you! And you are right minerals don't taste themselves like you impressively shew to us when you liked that stone ;-) but anyway this taste people call "mineral" is there and I think we have to cope with this term until we found a better expression but I really think that the main problem is that people tell this taste comes from the minerals in the soil. However, we are both rather young and therefore I am sure there will be many years to drink wine for both of us so maybe we talk again in a few decades and can say that we (or someone else) found a really good other term to describe it :-)