Fallout: New Vegas - The Philosophy of Caesar
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- čas přidán 8. 02. 2023
- Tyrannical fascist or justifiable leader? In this video we are taking a closer look at Fallout New Vegas’ Caesar and how he was able to justify his brutal atrocities.
Photo of Caesar in thumbnail by dragbody
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#fallout #bethesda #falloutnewvegas - Hry
*sees Fallout vid*
*clicks immediately*
Yep, that's true
Guess that’s why you’ve got nuka in your name
It's the simple things in life
Been years since I last completed this game.. Still love to see new videos on it!
My brain processed your pfp as a Fallout 1 Enclave power armour pfp for some reason… The Nuclear Brainrot is real
“You were a Follower of the Apocalypse?”
Caesar: Oh yes, raised in that tradition. And the teaching stuck. I was taught it was my responsibility to bring the torch of knowledge to the wastes… I may have taken the torch part more literally than they intended.
True to Caesar
I like how he revels in his reputation of being a complete monster.
@@concept5631 No more a monster than other factions.
NCR does this,but with more fox like quantities. Deception. Individualism. Greed. Lies.
Caesar, uses lion like quantities. Open, for all to see, truthful. Strength. Honor.
All of these factions are brutal. Just in different ways. Maybe even subtle ways like Mr House.
@@concept5631 Only he doesn’t believe he is a Monster, he understands that he is feared and that’s wha is needed to get done what he wants to be done.
@@concept5631 It is best to be loved and feared, but if that is not possible then it's best to be feared - Machiavelli.
I do love that more that 10 years later New Vegas is still in the media as an amazing game full of concepts to see itself inside or outside depending of a person grow.
Time for a remaster.
Windows 11 is not kind to old games.
Since we're talking about this game, I've got a serious doubt.
Remember back in "Fallout 2", that town in which the humans were about to enter in conflict with the ghouls that controlled that power station ? Ok, so, since the Ghouls turn into pherals without any sort of predictability over time, I think diplomacy with them in this scenario might not be the best idea, since when they turn, the ties binding the undead and living populations might keep the living from taking the necessary precautions once the dead lose their sanity and start damaging the infrastructures, dragging some people along the way towards the reaper.
Problem is, genocide isn't the best course of action either, since the knowledge they hold through out the centuries could prove useful for the coming generations.
Because of this data, the most logical approach seems to be enslave them in order to use their perks and restrict their access to the infrastructures so when the time comes, what's necessary is performed, or at the very least some activist is inspired to invent a sort of cure for the pheralness. But I am not uncultured. I know this solution makes human kind regress morally and ethically. Therefore my question is, could this be necessary evil or should another solution be found ? On one hand, this is is a post apocalyptic scenario, we can't really afford to lose more people. But on the other hand, it's wrong and it's the pathway to allow other capable people to justify more atrocities.
@@JabamiLain agreed
@@bigfoot3866 I'm sorry, but I need a more detailed response.
@@JabamiLain
Make ghouls slaves
As an interesting side note - "The History of the Decline and Fall of Roman Empire" is possibly one of the most influential books of the 20th century. So many writers, thinkers, artists and likewise were directly impacted by this book.
Interesting
I once heard a man say that we’re now at book 6 in terms of society.
@@crimsondynamo615 All empires fall, but you typically don't want to be there when it happens lol
It was written in the 18th century-but yes, Gibbon’s work is one of the most influential works ever written.
It’s a little weird, because as a work of history it’s horribly outdated when it isn’t getting things wrong; but it’s on a short list of the most important history books, up there with “The Influence of Sea Power Upon History” and Thucydides.
And then you realize how damn wrong the book was and, considering that, the wrong direction it pointed so many people that drew from it.
Never realized the connection between Edward Sallow/Caesar and Kurtz. Great stuff 👍
because that connection is rather tenuous. it is, nevertheless, useful to examine Kurtz in this context.
Same here, probably why I like Caesar so much because AN is my favourite film
I always liked Caesar because he was interesting to talk with, and he challenged me intellectually at the time. I think he was the first philosophy lesson I ever had.
I find it incredible interesting that despite the fact of New Vegas having so many interesting factions and lore, people gravitate to analyze more the one that had less time development and a lot of cut content and with the most (superficial) moral compass, is like accidentaly obsidian made them the most interesting faction because it requires the player to fill holes with their imagination.
Honestly I actually think the Legion would be an absurdly more interesting faction if Obsidian had more time to develop New Vegas, not only because more sidequests would mean more insight into what made it tick, but also because Caesar would most likely have more to tell. Considering the high standards of writing in the game, I doubt they would fumble the ball, even the clearly comedic DLC in OWB has amazing writing that fits it's purpose (in this case, comedy).
I hope they remake FNV with all cut content, and without fear of it's subjects being too serious for modern audiences and therefore toned down/changed.
@@lifeispain000 caesar and house are the only two NPCs in the game i almost never skip past the majority of their dialogue
@@lifeispain000Dude, it came out in 2010? The fuck you mean toned down for modern audiences? 2010 was modern you dumbass
Coping for the fact that nothing could ever justify the Legion. No cut content would make it interesting. Caesar is a madman leading a cartoonishly evil faction of Roman larpers
@@simoneidson21 They are evil, yes, but they are not cartoon villains. They have reasons for what they do that are internally consistent, if monstrous. You can absolutely reject their beliefs, but those beliefs at least have something to say, challenging the notion that liberty and progress are the way forward.
Actually the Legion has changed. They do use firearms more often despite Caesar’s wishes. The NCR has changed as well to become much more imperialistic, and militarized in response to the threat the Legion poses to them. So it looks like the process Caesar referred to is already taking place. No matter which ending occurs we see that things change, mostly for the better.
It's more like Caesar makes you earn fire arms vs not allowed to use it.
@@odinthomas2634 Exactly. The Legion doesn't have the industrial base, resource wealth or educated (by wasteland standards) citizenry of the NCR. It makes logical (if not moral) sense for them not to waste precious weaponry and ammunition by giving them to illiterate slaves who are likely not going to survive their first few battles anyway.
Crack Legion troops, on the other hand, use equipment that rivals or surpasses that of the NCR, since they have already proven themselves in battle. In one quest, they're even seen buying energy weapons from the Van Graffs.
Honestly the only ending that sorta halts both factions is house.ncr lose a lot of interest in rapid expansion especially if chief hanlon becomes a senator.the legion on the other hand is either going to evolve in some way after Caesar’s death or simply break apart.
@@dantewilliams2757 Yes, that ending trades the advancement of both NCR and Legion in favor of advancing Vegas. House makes a good case for why NCR is likely to leave the region alone, because of the massive public backlash/embarrassment that would occur from losing the War in the Mojave, and the fact that anti-War sentiment is already brewing within NCR, Hanlon becoming Senator of Redding would pretty much be the cherry on top which ensures NCR minds their own business and sticks to their borders.
@@samg.5165Thank you. Someone gets it.
The majority of Caesars Legion are ignorant and stupid tribals, whipped up into a brainwashed frenzy. Giving them hard to find and maintain weaponry that the Legion are too dumb to manufacture for themselves is a total waste.
People need to remember the Vegas families and Caesars Legion are the lowest of the low that humanity has to offer. Thats why they are playing historic dress up for megalomaniacs like House and Sallow who treat them like toy soldiers.
Regarding synthesis, The Legion does use guns - Caesar just doesn't want to over-rely on them. In no way does the Legion expect to win the Second Battle of Hoover Dam with lances. The Legion comes up with many strategies to counter NCR snipers for the Second battle of Hoover Dam, without the Courier joining the NCR - the Legion's new tactics include: Sewers entry to flank NCR snipers, Fiend chem-users sneak attack on McCarren, Monorail bombed, Omertas on the Strip using Chemical weapons, Great Khans from the North, they even tried to buy energy weapons from the Van Graffs. And if the courier helps the legion you additionally get (Boomers Artillery/Bombing Run, Repaired Howitzer bombing NCR snipers, Enclave Vertibird and Power Armor drop, Radio Sabotage, Militant Brotherhood of Steel harassing NCR, The Kings/Freeside aid Legion.
Legion is cunning and devious and will use almost anything to their advantage (except the Securitrons.)
Lastly, A female legion-courier is recruited for her exceptional skill and after the victory honored with a gold coin minted with her face distributed amongst the wasteland, pretty sure that will have a dramatic effect on widening the rights of women given their hero is a woman. This shows that Caesar values "Ability to Serve the Legion" over current Legion views like "All women are slaves." At the very least, Caesar is willing to place his short term needs above long term principles. My bet is after Legion wins, they will synthesize the GunRunners factory and incorporate their new tech similar to how the Legion's White Legs tribes adopted tommy guns after locating a large stash in Honest Hearts.
The biggest issue is that after Cesar dies, I don’t think Legate Lanius cares very much for Hegelian Dialectics as he literally crucifies Arcade Gannon. The Cult of Mars will persist but the dream of synthesis is dead. Would love to see your take on Mr. House,.
Lanius could be the most idiotic person in the wasteland and the synthesis would still happen over time. I wrote a comment about this somewhere that explains it better. Hegel's philosophy was that anytime opposing forces come into contact, a dialectic is held and a synthesis is formed naturally over time. This does not mean that it has to be an equal trade however. A good analogy for this would be like how gravity works. In theory you and Earth both have an gravitational pull on each other and it effects the both of you, but obviously the bigger one has the most influence in the relationship.
If the courier helps the Legion i believe he/she will became the new Caesar either openly (or if their woman especially) a shadow leader. Caesar shares his vision with the courier openly besides the meta game element he has no reason to share this with the courier unless he was grooming him as a potential leader
Caesar is also a idiot who doesn't know what Hegelian Dialectics is, but he can convince what equates to cave people that he knows what he's talking about.
It’s unlikely Caesar plans to have Lanius as the successor. If Caesar dies during the game, Lanius takes over only because he has the highest military rank and everyone is too afraid to say anything.
Caesar says Lanius is a brute who has little mind for governance, and meanwhile, talks all day to the Courier about his philosophy, ideals, and plans for the future. And unlike Joshua Graham, Caesar gives the Courier a pass on some major failures so long as they are still dedicated and successful in the long-run. And in the times of ancient Rome, only the emperors had their faces minted on coinage. The Courier having their face minted on new currency is very telling of Caesar’s plans for the Courier and the future of his “New California Empire”.
I might be remembering incorrectly but wasn't there an option to suggest Vulpes as the next leader of the legion?
At the very least, there was a discussion that could be had about it with one of the high ranking legion guys.
“I don’t care what Mr. House had in that bunker I’m camped right on top of, just destroy it and never mention it to me again. Thaaaanks!” - Caesar (Basically)
When House started talking through the monitor I just kept walking. Stick it up your ass, you pen-pushing mummy!
There's cut content where you'd need to destroy one of the generators in the bunker to fool him into thinking you blew it up, otherwise he wouldn't have believed you.
Just putting this early, Caesar's Legion utterly demolishes The NCR without Courier Intervention, that's a fact.
Agreed, but the Legion utterly collapses on itself when he inevitably dies soon after.
The NCR out in thr Mojave maybe but I don't see them ever being successful making it any further west
@@Naurto58 That is but a possibility, Caesar's Legion continues to evolve with every acquisition, with the NCR's absorption the end result will be an evolution of the likes that has never occurred within the very small amount of years that the Legion has existed.
The Legion as it is will indeed crumble, but after the defeat of the NCR, the Legion that was will die and within the embers of before a new Empire will arise, ready to burn all those who stands in it's way to dust.
Mars will be worshipped.
@@maylabrown4584 Cool juice, Mayla Brown!
Maybe, but I do wonder that NCR in California would not collapse, especially with 2 factors; the very will of the Legion will die without Courier's intervention, and NCR's army manpower and skill (since NCR Power Armor division would be stationed there due to Brahmin baron's power on the NCR)
KotoR 2 deals with the Hegalian Dialectic as well through Kreia, one of her more notable quotes, though not among the most popular attributed to her is "if you are to believe in anything, then you should seek out that belief's opposite, and study it, so that you might identify any flaws in your own views and correct them"
Kriea is the sort of character I can watch infinite analysis videos of
Only problem with that here, is, Caesar doesn't know what Hegelian Dialectics even is. He cites it as Thesis, Antithesis, and Synthesis, and that is incorrect. IIRC, Hegelian Dialectics is the dichotomy of Master and Slave Morality.
@@Suiki1 I think Caesar's misunderstanding of Hegelian Dialectics is intentional (I hope so). He's really just read a lot of books that he doesn't understand super well and has used it to feign knowledge and authority
Edward doesn’t understand Hegelian. It’s a post hoc justification
You kinda left out the part where the Legion attempts to acquire energy weapons, repair the artillery piece at the Fort as well as Caesar seeking an alliance with the Boomers all of which gives the Legion the same long-range tactical flexibility of the NCR. Caesar learned from his mistakes he didn't double down at all.
No, he’s just a hypocrite. He just found a somewhat coherent ideology to justify his power
@@simoneidson21 Right? He'll use a power fist, and arm his closest soldiers with them, AND give his death squads firearms, but he wants the rest of his army using...machetes. He forbids the use of chems or other medical technology, and he has an AutoDoc in his personal tent. In other words, the leader gets everything that would keep himself safe, but his subjects are left in the stone age.
Based and Caesar-pilled
I find that some of the most compelling villains in fiction are the ones that represent everything that is wrong with the setting in which the story takes place. Caesar is essentially the worst kind of character that a person existing in this universe could become. As someone who was given the rare opportunity to learn about the old world that existed before the land was ravaged by a nuclear disaster, Caesar could have used his knowledge for good. Instead, he used it to amass a savage horde of murderers, marauders, and slavers.
Happens in real life too unfortunately
Based
Where he used his horde or murderers, marauder’s, and slavers to bring peace to Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah. Providing for his citizens of his empire the most peaceful lands. Caravaners who trade and travel through legion controlled lands discuss never worrying about slavers or theft. Same could be said about Ghengis Khan and his development of the Silk Road which connected the old world through trade. Though temporary (assuming he loses and truly only he can lead the legion) and the morality questionable, Caesar, Edward Sallow, brought peace to his lands.
@@connorshannon3712Except for if you are a female trader. The NCR also brings peace to California. The only reason the Mojave is in the state it is in is because the NCR is dealing with internal problems, most due to corruption, this wouldn’t change if Edward actually took control of the Mojave, dictatorships are inherently more corrupt than democracies. Democracy isn’t an Old World relic that needs to be gotten rid of, capitalism is. That’s the entire reason the NCR is so corrupt
During the first battle of Hoover Dam. Caesars Legion utilized ranged weapons and explosives. It wasnt the lack thereof that lost them the battle. It was Joshuas advance into Boulder city.
I've always said that Caesar has the advantage of the Power Struggle in the Mojave by simply understanding how the world before failed, like Mr. House, but takes it a step further. You can't bend the human nature by penning in the NCR and expect it to be cowed. Caesar understands that the world, fundamentally, changed when the bombs dropped. Might is right in the New World, and Caesar will never stop building might. To his advancement and detriment
I've got this serious doubt and I need people like you to help me sort it out.
Remember back in "Fallout 2", that town in which the humans were about to enter in conflict with the ghouls that controlled that power station ? Ok, so, since the Ghouls turn into pherals without any sort of predictability over time, I think diplomacy with them in this scenario might not be the best idea, since when they turn, the ties binding the undead and living populations might keep the living from taking the necessary precautions once the dead lose their sanity and start damaging the infrastructures, dragging some people along the way towards the reaper.
Problem is, genocide isn't the best course of action either, since the knowledge they hold through out the centuries could prove useful for the coming generations.
Because of this data, the most logical approach seems to be enslave them in order to use their perks and restrict their access to the infrastructures so when the time comes, what's necessary is performed, or at the very least some activist is inspired to invent a sort of cure for the pheralness. But I am not uncultured. I know this solution makes human kind regress morally and ethically. Therefore my question is, could this be necessary evil or should another solution be found ? On one hand, this is is a post apocalyptic scenario, we can't really afford to lose more people. But on the other hand, it's wrong and it's the pathway to allow other capable people to justify more atrocities.
@@JabamiLain I think this problem can be solved by analyzing one of your initial assumptions: that non-feral Ghouls always turn into ferals. We never get any concrete evidence whatsoever that idea is true. The proponents of that idea come from the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 4, who are not very accepting of any non-humans, making their statement *incredibly* biased, especially when they give no actual evidence.
Time is clearly not a factor, since there are Ghouls that were made over 200 years ago, and even some before the bombs like Eddie Winter and Desmond, that are still sane. Yet there are people who turn into feral Ghouls immediately, like most of the NCR troopers in Camp Searchlight. This inconsistency shows us that time is not the factor.
We know that it is not too much radiation, due to non-feral Glowing Ones, such as Jason Bright and Oswald. Glowing Ones exude lots of rads, yet the two I mentioned are clearly fine, so it can't be the radiation degrading the brain.
In short, the idea that all Ghouls turn feral eventually is not actually proven by anything, and there is even evidence against it. So to solve your dilemma, no, you do *not* have to enslave the Ghouls, they won't all turn feral in the future.
@@tinaherr3856 I see. But what are the theories for what turns them ?
@@JabamiLain Well, I have my own theory on that, with a little influence from the Ghoul doctor's terminal in the Underworld from Fallout 3. I believe that going feral is caused by a variety of social, mental, (and maybe a little bit of radiation) factors. See, I believe that if a person's will isn't that strong, or they are too isolated, or have other negative mental issues, they have a higher chance of becoming feral. In Fallout 4's Nuka World dlc, a Ghoul named Rachel (on holotape only) only displays signs of going feral, only *after* she loses hope because a random settler told her that. No evidence, just them saying something. I believe that losing hope is what started the process for Rachel, believing that she would go feral caused her to go feral, like a placebo.
This mental and social explanation can in fact apply to most feral, since having your entire world be destroyed and turned into a radioactive hell, as well as having you skin and body fall apart, isn't going to be the best for your mental health.
@@tinaherr3856 the data you present does seem to suggest the best solution is the diplomacy after all.
18:20 I don't think that's why they say they lost. While the NCR does probably have the advantage there, Caesars legion will use long-range weapons. You see many legion npc's use them, and they even use howitzers and planes if you get the boomers to help you. They lost because by the admission of many characters, even Mr. House, the NCR had a better battle plan. More specifically, to lure the legion into Boulder city and blow it up with them in it, then push back.
They also partly lost the war cause of intervention from The Courier detonating the device in The Divide as told in Lonesome Road, Caesar's Legion outnumbered The NCR already and with reinforcements the losses sustained from Boulder City would be many in number but not enough for the Rangers to save the day as they did before.
Fallout New Vegas is legit the most underrated game of all time, great to see it covered by max.
For anyone who hasnt played it and has a spare the 5 bucks buy and play this game you will have the time of your life.
Dude I don't think it's underrated at all. It's still popular, famous ans loved many years after its release. It's not even a "cult classic" like for example Planescape Torment, which for all its boost in popularity thanks to CZcams critics, remains a relatively obscure title. New Vegas is a part of mainstream. Maybe not to such degree as Skyrim, or Call of Duty but it can be safely regarded as a "gateway drug" to more interesting ideas presented in games.
@@TheHalogen131 yup, it's mainstream and overrated. Not that it's a bad thing, but people shouldn't treat it like the 2nd coming of christ.
@@dogeprissy9850 New Vegas isn't woefully overrated or underrated, it's where it should be. While there are undoubtedly too many excuses for it's shortcomings, it nonetheless stands as a masterclass in the gaming landscape. It's a landmark RPG and a testament to how far passion can take you in spite of your limitations. That passion can still be felt in the mods, art, and stories that are created for it to this day. Maybe it's not the second coming of Christ, but it's certainly a diamond in the rough.
I'm not familiar with all the characters you talk about in your videos (outside of Fallout, that is), but regardless, I feel I always benefit from your insights. You've got a great channel, and a real gift for communicating difficult concepts, Max. Keep it up.
You recently asked something in the lines of what games would be good games to be academically taught. With that kind of ell grounded in depth analysis, I believe this would be a perfect course to be taught and reflected upon as is. I really see this ending with a "now, which public figure would fit this structure of thought in your opinion, and why. Paper due in two weeks". Fallout : New Vegas indeed has a lot to think about, and I'm glad you're spending time circling that out for us !
Thanks Max, Loved it !
I hope you do a deeper look at Mr. House! He's my favorite character and who I think is the logical choice for the courier to side with in the ending.
I hope Max forgives me for advertising another CZcamsr, but there's a good video on Mr House by Soup Emporium. While I disagree with his conclusion, the video itself is great and worthy of watching because it's both well researched and has great production value, especially for a small channel like Soup. Good stuff.
House is no different from Caesar. Both are narcissists attempting to revive an Old World ideology. Both of them are deluded autocrats. There’s no future in House
Mr. House is a great candidate for how successful democracies have typically been formed in history. A strict autocracy whose goals are the strengthening of prosperity and knowledge of their polity. Such strength requires education and economic freedom. Eventually, the well-educated and economically free people want a say in how they're ruled and call for democracy, especially if the autocrat just died (say, House's organic form has finally decayed because the life extension technology isn't perfect). They hold elections, and a republic is formed on top of a solid foundation. Democracies that form out of anarchy tend to be rife with corruption and disorganization. It's easier to turn an illiberal state liberal than it is to form a liberal state out of nothing.
I'm so glad you did a character study on Cesar!
I hope he does a character study on Ulysses from the same game, who I feel came to a more accurate and pragmatic understanding of things, even if he wasn't right about everything. He pretty much had a chance to observe every post-apocalyptic society, and found them ALL lacking; the only thing he had faith in was the small nation that the Courier was partially responsible for creating, but that no longer exists.
Cesar Velapando
My mans DONT MISS! Always on point with peak content!
I remember watching your Heart of Darkness video during my first legion playthrough. Went and watched Apocalypse Now again and I've got to say, walking through that fort to go meet Caesar hit way differently after that.
Lately I've been finding a lot of joy learning about Fallout and it's characters/universe (never played the games) along with my continued interest in Psych/Philosophy. This is why I love your channel Max, keep up the great work bro
Listen to me very carefully go to your local game stop or entertainment store, go to the section of your preferred console, and pick up Fallout 3. You wont be sorry Skyrim is good too if medieval aesthetics is more your thing
Fallout 3 isn't a good introduction to the series. New Vegas is better in the writing department, hands down.
Fantastic video. The philosophical commentary was superb, and I enjoyed listening about what you learned from this experience!
Brilliant video. Thanks for this 👍 I am literally replaying New Vegas on my steam deck because of your videos on this game. Far deeper then I remember when I was getting stuck into this back on the xbox 360 all those years ago!
I've literally been waiting for this one. I can already say, without watching it yet, that this will be your finest hour, Max. Cheers from Argentina.
always great to see a new video of urs, thanks for ur efforts!
Not gonna lie, you’re one of my favorite CZcamsrs. Everything you produced is gold. Great content 👍
P.S. I’m sooo happy you’re doing New Vegas vids. That freakin game is too underrated. One of the best games ever made.
I'm just glad that you're bringing attention to Apocalypse Now that movie is over 50 years old when it came out in the 70s and I got to tell you it's one of the best pieces of Cinema that's ever grace the silver screen and the soundtrack on it is also just as amazing
The fact that you're able to correctly recognize similarities between Kurtz and Caesar gives two thumbs waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy up from me in knowing I wasn't the only one that made that connection, Kurtz is great he was a great villain as was Caesar
And it's amazing when you have villains be villains it makes for just some astoundingly great storytelling as here we are chatting about a 50 year old movie and a decade old game ☺️
I love your content! Thank you for continuing to elevate excellent games! Please do a video on Ulysses and the Lonesome road! That dlc always haunted me and I would love to hear your commentary on him and the dlc.
Dude, Max.. "Noumena" - "Numenera" Planescape's sequel, Tides of Numenera, and it's central theme is about the Apotheosis if I got this straight. As well as its physical form while you play as the embodiment of one of many Noumena perhaps..
Would love to see your take on if the two converge if you'd like to dive down that rabbit hole. Beautiful game, if not a bit perplexing. And great video, man. Be so nuts if they're related right after your Planescape analysis.
Informative as always.
Something I want to point out regarding Caesar’s first synthesis after the First Battle of Hoover Dam - Caesar did, in fact, adapt.
The issue wasn’t that Caesar wasn’t using firearms, the problem was the tactics used were overly simplistic rush tactics that left the Legion vulnerable to having their leadership sniped off from afar. The way the Legion organized their forces (new soldiers up front, and veterans and leaders in the back) made it easy for NCR snipers to take out the leadership with minimal effort.
Caesar does, in fact, allow the use of firearms. The average Legion soldier is trained in all areas of fighting. The Legion likely just lacks the supplies to arm their entire force, and thus rely on scavenging for the newer soldiers to obtain firearms while reserving the better weapons for higher ranking and/or more experienced legionnaires.
Following that, we see in-game that the Legion is making efforts to arms their soliders. The courier can discover an arms deal being made between the Legion and the Van Graffs, who are known for selling very advanced weaponry. We even see legionnaires of varying rank carrying firearms.
Lastly, Caesar adjusted the tactics used to fight the NCR. Instead of using overwhelming force, the Legion adjusted to making use of tunnels and other methods of surprise in an effort to catch the NCR off guard and get around their snipers. In addition, they were willing to make allies with people that could provide heavy support to the front lines. If Caesar stays in charge, he is wise enough to not pursue them.
I love you, you crazy bastard 🖤
Also 22:52 I think your description of “true synthesis” actually aligns more with stoicism. Now i am far from an expert on this topic I’m just very interested in philosophy as a hobby. But careful, calm self examination (from what I’ve read) is a cornerstone of stoics. If you’ve actually achieved this, that’s amazing and good for you!
OMG THIS IS THE VIDEO I'VE BEEN CRAVING FOR SO LONG. Seriously though. Thank you so much for making this video. Your knowledge of this subject is supreme, and as someone who's spent THOUSANDS of hours playing New Vegas, I applaud you for accurately dissecting and criticizing Caesar and his Legion
I still believe that despite his flaws Caesar has the better argument for government and society when compared to the NCR based merely on how effective and pragmatic his view tends to be, however, tyrannical states can only exist so long there's a real justification for them in the form of an existential threat so Caesar would eventually have to reform the Legion in a few manners as currently, he has merely a nomadic army and not a proper PEOPLE he himself recognizes this flaw and realizes that the NCR being vanquished certain changes would need to be employed for example: he wouldn't give women ¨equality¨ but he would likely have to form some manner of the institution of MARRIAGE for families to be able to form as a consistent and basic political unit from which his new society would start building itself up upon, said institution would by default raise women from their conditions as slaves into that of wives and mothers that would have a certain importance in society even if not necessarily an equal one to that of men, another subject would be the current state of slavery which caesar would be aware of the long term consequences for given the fact he has read the history of the roman empire and would be aware of their ¨slave rebelion problem¨ therefore Caesar may feel inclined to implement reforms which would make the institution die out over time although not necessarily making his new hypothetical state a ¨free market economy¨, his refusal to use firearms and most technology dont seem to be a pragmatic descision as much as a long term idealistic one: his current world was destroyed by a nuclear war which was made only possible by the unchecked advancement of technology, therefore it only makes sense that Caesar does not wish to set a precedent for technological growth within his new state, even going as far as to sacrifice effectiveness for this commitment, from his POV this ¨unabomber-esque¨ mindset not only makes sense but is fundamented in the truth of the dangers presented by technology which in his world(and in ours to a certain extent lets be honest) can be proven by looking out the window of ones dwelling place, Caesar is no fool and flawed as he may be, he is the best option for the Mojave and his reformed society would be by the very nature of necessity and circunstances, much more moderate then his legion currently is, not to mention that the NCR is a democratic republic which historically are characterized by incompetence and (ironically enough) the curtailing of its citizens freedoms, rights and safetys while Caesars Legion and future hypothetical empire are a despotate or pricipate which means they will have to respect their citizens freedoms, rights and safetys not by any higher ideals but by the simple fact that the anti-tech and reltively primitivist nature of Caesars ideology means they wouldnt be able to enforce policys and laws which would intentionally harm those freedoms,rights and safetys more then what would be understood as necessary: comparatively speaking the new Legion now reformed in this hypothetical scenario is more honest,liberating and respectful of its own citizens then the NCR not for any high ideal but because its ruthless pragmatism demands it to be so.
Than you! You articulated the reason me I support the legion better than most I usually encounter. It’s so unfortunate that any mention of the legion being anything more than objectively evil immediately creates scrutiny from others. Them insinuating that I’m a evil sexist pervert. I genuinely want what’s best for humanity. And in my opinion it would be Caesar’s legion more than any other faction
My headcanon is that caesar is grooming courier 6 to be his son and heir like the five good emperors
great video been enjoying your channel quite a bit recently, also what was the song playing around 14 minutes in if is alright to ask? Been bothering me trying to find out >.>
Caesar did nothing wrong.
This was an amazing video bro
Just wanna shout out the beautiful reflection at the end!!
15:03 so I'm working on Fallout video as well and everything I've seen on Heglian Dialetics is that apparently Hegel never used Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis. It was actually by a man called Johann Gottlieb Fichte. So would Caesar interpretation of Hegelian Dialetcs be completely false?
I apologize if this is dumb. I'm just trying to understand.
People apply Fichte's terms to Hegel because they're better at describing what Hegel was getting at than Hegel's own terms. If you read a translation of one of their works (I can't remember which one, I read them the same month years ago), there's a literal table putting words in the three categories of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. It takes a lot of mulling over to parse why each word is in each category.
From Wikipedia: "Hegel used two different sets of terms for his triads, namely, "abstract-negative-concrete" (especially in his Phenomenology of 1807), as well as "immediate-mediate-concrete" (especially in his Science of Logic of 1812), depending on the scope of his argumentation."
New Vegas has such interesting character psychology
"We have better arguments against these ppl"
"What is your argument?"
"Don't be mean"
I dont know where this came from but this video reminded me about a quote about ideas: “when you use your mind to create those ideas, those versions of you, you let them die, so that you may live on.” Im not sure if its from a movie or an anime but i swear i have always repeated this whenever it comes to difficult choices in media and in real life.
ah fuck,Max.It's 3 am here and i was about to go to bed but you are not giving me that chance,are you?had to put that irresistible fallout new vegas stuff out
Considering how much these kinds of villains attract you, I'm kinda surprised you haven't talked about Judge Holden from Blood Meridian.
That's a really hard read, it took me a few tries to get through it but it's so good.
I played this one on PC when it came out. I was near the end I believe. My save was stuck in the Casino right as Caesar and about a hundred of his boys had guns in my face. Load up, die, load up, die. And that was the end of New Vegas for me. If I was smarted back then I probably could have figured out how to load an earlier save. But I wasn’t. Good times. Keep on rockin Max.
✌️❤️🎵🎥♾
Thank you for making this video. The topic of mental issues has been on the rise and i feel that the ''heart of darkness'' is (from my experience) not spoken of at all compared to other mental issues. And ofcourse the more common ones are spoken about, but maybe alot of people dont realise that there is confilct with their heart of darkness and not other mental issues that they belive is the propblem.
I was actually about to request you do a episode on Caesar then I see this. For your next fnv video would you consider Mr. House. Thanks for putting out such good videos man.
So what you're saying if Caesar likes to do a little trolling?
Great video dude
Hey Max - you might have already crossed this, but if you really enjoy these Milton-esque ultra philosophical villains, you would be fascinated by Judge Holden in Cormac McCarthy's "Blood Meridian."
Excellent video, Max, however I must protest that there's such a thing as 'a basic understanding of Hegel' because Hegel is a morass of jargon and arbitrary distinctions that ultimately reach nothing and nowhere.
This is true, my man. :P
Great video by the way.
another fantastic video essay .... your work is always the highest quality and standard .... keep up the truly great work
Max- this is one of my favorite vids you’ve done!
I’ve been playing FNV for over a decade, and did my first Cesar play though only last month… I role played as though the courier was a fumatari that was disgraced when Benny stole the chip from him.
And when I opened myself to thinking like Cesar, following Cesar, and fighting for Cesar… I found myself agreeing with his barbaric ideology. In the context of the wasteland, I do believe that the legion is the greatest possibility of long term and widespread stability in post-apocalypse USA.
Since we're talking about this, I've got a serious doubt.
Remember back in "Fallout 2", that town in which the humans were about to enter in conflict with the ghouls that controlled that power station ? Ok, so, since the Ghouls turn into pherals without any sort of predictability over time, I think diplomacy with them in this scenario might not be the best idea, since when they turn, the ties binding the undead and living populations might keep the living from taking the necessary precautions once the dead lose their sanity and start damaging the infrastructures, dragging some people along the way towards the reaper.
Problem is, genocide isn't the best course of action either, since the knowledge they hold through out the centuries could prove useful for the coming generations.
Because of this data, the most logical approach seems to be enslave them in order to use their perks and restrict their access to the infrastructures so when the time comes, what's necessary is performed, or at the very least some activist is inspired to invent a sort of cure for the pheralness. But I am not uncultured. I know this solution makes human kind regress morally and ethically. Therefore my question is, could this be necessary evil or should another solution be found ? On one hand, this is is a post apocalyptic scenario, we can't really afford to lose more people. But on the other hand, it's wrong and it's the pathway to allow other capable people to justify more atrocities.
I’ve never blown up the town of Gecko in F2. I usually play the good guy in rpgs, because being a dick feels bad lol. That said, depending on your characters views, destroying a horde of ghouls makes perfect sense. Fear of the other, and tensions between the towns could easily lead a player-character to make that choice.
I should do a baddie run in F2
I find it interesting to play games like Tyranny or role playing as a legionnaire in FNV because it offers insight into behaviors that I would otherwise find repugnant. Sure- as a pampered modern American- I find Cesars culture horrifying. But when I allow myself to engage in a thought experiment/play as a baddie, I ask myself “what would drive me to do such a thing” … and I find the answer is usually easier than I would like
@@dylanclark9903 the intention wasn't to blow them up, it was to enslave them and use them as a work force/living library in order to be easier keeping them in check should they ever turn pheral. But a comment has pointed out there are strategies to stave off the pheralness, so I don't find this a potential solution anymore.
Also, unlike you, it's incredibly easy for me to play playthroughs based around calculism, ruthlessness and manipulation due to how interesting, deconstructive and conflicting the stories become. You just need to find the right conditions to justify your actions. In fact, goody two shoes for me are boring because of how dull and stagnant they feel. I am what I like to call a "Business man" kind of evil. I have a vision of progress for the land (a revolution, a new governmental system, permanently ending crime, etc.), and I will see it fulfilled. Sometimes I'll be compassionate. Sometimes I'll step on others while trying to explain to others why this was the best course of action or think of a less painful outcome.
I'll only sacrifice myself in a gamble in which my vision is the prize, meaning it might not be 100% what I envisioned if I lose, but it's still going to be imposed at some capacity. And, I'll leave a wild card to make sure my vision doesn't get corrupted by the winner, to ensure whatever allies I make are the ones who might take control after the winner's ruin. A good business man ensures the ego doesn't get in the way of industrial cooperation.
That's... concerning
Cant wait for the sequel on Ulysses. You make tge best videos in these gaming categories
Max Derrat. Have you considered doing a video on Mandus from the game Amnesia Machine of pigs. The mentality of a dictator is ever present in the game plus the motif of the heart of darkness is particularly powerful in the game. As the protagonist becomes a nihilist dictator.
19:00
an "ideal synthesized soldier" would basically be Snake (all of them) from the MGS series lol.
Has anyone else mentioned Warhammer yet? Konrad Curze, the Night Haunter, hails from the planet Nostromo. He rules through fear and brutality. He is literally one giant reference to Heart of Darkness / Apocalypse Now.
The most fascinating aspect of ceaser caracter in fallout new vegas is how much he is a commentary about the idealization of the past.Or even better ,how much the conflict between the ncr and the legion are criticize of american institutions.If bouth are faded to faled for trying to recreate a society that failed and self destruct in the past, how much diferent are they for the faunder fathers that tried to created america of the image of roman republic, that already crumble hundred of years ago.Arent they just repeting the same mistakes over and over again.
It's almost like there is no better systems worth trying and causes for the fall of Rome and modern American degradation can be traced to certain particular phenomena and groups of people
@@Shiroi0moi
It seems that the point of New Vegas is that:"Ideas are as good as the people behind them".
I'm really enjoying your content and was wondering if you would consider looking into the Philosophy surrounding Nier Automata.
Enter the superior in every way Materialist Dialectic
Technically Caesar did have a synthesis after Hoover Damn in establishing the Fumentarii, Spies that can go behind lines, commit acts of terror and decimate supply lines without being caught. Granted it doesn’t counter NCR snipers in the field, but it does ravage the enemy’s ability to use their long-ranged weapons before a fight.
This was great work! Take a bow.
I hope you do Ulysses at some point.
WAKE UP HONEY ANOTHER MAX DERRAT BANGER
The synthesis of Caesar will be when the Legion becomes as Empire with the conquering of New Vegas and the consolidation of their resources. The social situation and scale of it all has no choice but to change the Legionary culture as a whole. You are simply asserting that Caesar is just blood-crazed when he has a vision that at least rivals the vision of House, if not exceeds it because Caesar will not be relying on advanced, fallible tech. His vision will be built solid, on firm ideological foundations and a non-reliant culture of Spartanesque strength as a social mode. The corruption, bureaucracy, liberalism, and spiritual weakness of the NCR will be rightly folded into eternity and chastised by the purifying crucible of the Legion. Awe. True to Caesar!
Hello, based department? We have an emergency
It’s genuinely beautiful to k ow there are others with my morals!
Basically IF Caesar survives to rule, doesn't get betrayed, or bombed into dust by NCR after they mobilize from California, best case scenario is the legion society is a theocracy, worst case scenario a feudal monarchy with more technology. Either way it wasn't built to last
love your vids bro
Just a note the Thesis->Antithesis->Synthesis is not Hegel per se, rather a reading by Fichte or Schelling. This doesnt invalidate your video in anyway as this is also how Ceasar is reading it.
But synthesis implies a resolution, Hegel does not think there is resolution in anything. Everything exists in tension with its antithesis by necessity, to resolve it would by nature destroy it. If yhere is no antithesis one will be created retroacti ely as if it was always there. This is why Hegel uses the word Aufhebung, imperfectly translated to sublation. Aufhebung is wordplay which is to simulataneously overcome and preserve. The Hegelian sublation (synthesis) means any new dialectic has shades of the old, its never resolved
Apollyon from For Honor might (to some small extent) also fit the mold of Kurtz.
If you're looking for a character inspired by Heart of Darkness, try Conrad Curze from Warhammer 40K. The name itself should be a huge clue as to where the inspiration came from...
Please do a video on Ergo Proxy! Its such an underrated anime with so many deep philosophical themes!
Stay tuned! :D
I pretty much cleanse the Wasteland from Caesar and his Legion in my every playthrough of FNV lol
Ave, true to Caesar
In Fallout New Vegas I find the courier to match up well thematic with Lee Marvin’s portrayal of Point Blank. Philosophically he character is the thesis of Parker himself built on revenge. Like Parker however he protects those who cannot protect themselves. With Ceaser it’s evident that the courier would and could grow into an enemy. He’s been around for a while and if it means playing the barons against Ceaser while ripping off the Crimson caravans and protecting Cass it’s what they’ll do. That being said Cass herself reminds me a lot of Angie Dickinson on her take of Claire, the courier isn’t driven on being a lone character he’s bent on revenge the moralistic choices of karma play into his character and for me it fits playing him straight as Walker. The Legion reminds me of Fairfax at the end wanting to knock off all the other outfits save for himself and deviating heavily from the source material. While the NCR is corrupt it allows him to operate and has. If you max out a melee build you get a tough and terse
If you ever do another character analysis on fnv again I highly recommend doing one on Ulysses. I know he’s not as popular as Joshua or elijah but he’s still in my opinion one of the most complex and interesting characters in the series. Once you get past all the talk about bulls and bears that is haha.😅
OH MY GOD! What the hell happened to Ceasar!?
He looks like...like Joe...
I loved the seriousness of the essay being broken up by Baphomet's censored nip nops. Thank you for the giggle, sir.
Caesar did not learn from the mistake of the first battle of Hoover Dam, but the legion surely did: Lucious tasks the Courier to fix a long range artillery piece specifically to target the renger veterans and take out the NCR snipers early on, other than this we see legionaries make a deal with the Van Graffs which obviously states that the legion was trying to buy energy weapons.
In short I think that, despite what Caesar said, the Legion learned from the mistake of the first battle of Hoover Dam and would, without the courier's intervention, surely win and crush the NCR in the second battle.
Guns are the answer 😂
Caesar is an interesting character, because of the political standpoint of it all. Heck, he is so well done and written in a way that the fact that there are people defending him in this very own comment section is a testament to how Fascism works and puts in you check against the established system that lied before: the thing is though, fascism won't end the problems that led the Mojave to be where they were or the rest of the world for the matter. No faction in New Vegas can and would do that, all 3 of them work with parameters of society that led the world to the end itself, House makes an interesting analysis by saying that it was democracy that led to the end but no, it was simply capitalism. The bombs drop because of corporate greed in the form of Vault Tech. Caesar's ways are doomed to fail because he merely reproduces an ideology and philosophies of a destroyed world, in a good old "What is insanity?" fashion, he wants to solve the world by reproducing the things that ended it.
There is literally no evidence that Vault Tech was the reason why bombs fell. Great war was about two nations trying to wipe out each other, America was exploiting the world and so was the China. Ceaser is doomed to fail? Bro, romans lasted for almost whole fucking millenium and was the most influencal civilisation. And Ceaser built country as big as NCR and far more stable in over 30 years, while NCR went from democracy to oligarchy after Tendi death.
@@Atok1111 Even if it wasn't Vault Tech, I think it is too much innocence to not believe that it was indeed them due to the absurd amount of clues the game, dialogues, diaries, and tec reports from hacking around their vaults give us, the point still stands. Capitalism and imperialism led to the war that ended the world, with or without Vault Tech's interference. And yeah the Romans built an empire that lasted for a long long time, had a well-rounded state, with great infrastructure and all, but that doesn't mean we should replicate what they did now. That's simply "old world blues" to put it in Fallout's terms. Society should not strive to replicate the rules, settings, and machinations of the very own systems that led to the downfall of the world, if they do history will repeat itself. But sometimes, it is easier to imagine the world ending rather than capitalism ending, and that is precisely one of the critics of Fallout as a whole. There is no real solution for the Mojave.
As a deeply spiritual individual, my mind is now doing tailspins to try and understand the concept of "alien" karma. 😂😂
I love your work, m8! ❤
Okay, this is cool and all, but when are you going to give your interpretation of 32 volumes of Vivec. There exist some very interesting concept of CHIM, that might be worth looking into.
Viewing everything through the lense of yourself rather than through a merely objective outside lense is a dangerous form of narcissism. "Me, me, me, I, I, I"
Great now I want to play New Vegas.
Hey Max have you ever thought of doing a video on Bladerunner 2049? I know you did a video on the first one but 2049 is my favorite movie and curious if you love or hate it
I love blade runner but I haven't seen blade runner 2049 is it worth watching it's not going to ruin my blade runner experience sequels normally do that
Great Insight. I'm curious on how will the legion continue when Caesar dies though, he has no heirs and Joshua might have been the only one who can follow through.
I'm also curious on your thoughts about Rossartrism. I know it's from a mobile game but it's ideals feels like it's being applied artificially to our current world state.
"the shining beacon in a brave new world"
If you want to know the prediction, the legion will be disbanded with chaos and rivalry within their own. To quote the very right-hand man of the Legion, Joshua Graham;
"I think only Caesar can lead the Legion. I've never met anyone who could take his place. I couldn't. I never had a mind for logistics.
I don't know _Lanius,_ but from what I heard, he had no interest of leading anyone unless it's in battle.
No. *The Legion dies with Caesar.* What follows now are just the last steps of a man who does not realize tht *he's walking dead."*
- Joshua Graham
@@ardantop132na6 boone said otherwise, that there are already people who would take ceaser postion over his death.
@@Atok1111 think thats also the main point of the courier. as many other peoples have made here without a ncr courier (not including the overwhelming power of the securitons from yes man or house) interferance caesar would probably win the battle of hoover dam. the main idea of bringing in the courier is as an heir . everyone else in the legion was born in it but caesar wasnt. the courier being foriegn too means hes removed from the cult of mars but can run it and so on. yaboiii has a great video on this at the end of fnv thru the legion the couriers face is printed on a coin as generally the legion takes so much from rome only emperors and their successors were placed on coins. in my opinion and tbf i utilize alot of the cut content as shown by trianglecity to form my overall opinion of the legion and its future but even with vanilla the courier is supposed to be caesars heir
@@henrymaliphant4152 plenty of legionnaires wasnt born in Legion. Lanius for example
@@ardantop132na6 this is from someone who was spurned by the legion. I can easily see the legion become a theocratic state underneath the priesthood (very influential underneath the legion)
very cool
Could you do a video on Haunting Ground PS2 game? Alchemism factors in the story massively.
Very interesting
The heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad is cursed, every page
Hey man!
Could you, please, tell the name of the song in intro?
Little did they know the only thesis that was important was Taxes and the only anti-thesis that mattered was one angry mailman that didn't care *WHO THE IRS SENDS*
Pleaseeeee we need a Ulysses video now from the lonesome road dlc!!!
Discussing the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
My head blew up trying to understand the philosophy of this video.
Your video intros are so familiar we’re they inspired by something in media or art?
The Caesar has marked you for death, and the legion obeys! Ready yourself for battle!