"If i reject sport, ball and cars, if i reject jock culture, then i have by nature rejected misogyny and toxic masculinity. That's not true" Great Take. Thank you!
Yea, he basically summed up all of the issues of the horrible jokes in Big Bang Theory. 'Oh, haha, he was a racist misogynist, but he's a nerd! Hilarious!' I could never figure out how that show kept going
just wanted to say that when I first came across this video 6 years ago, your points about how subcultures often reject the aesthetics of dominant culture while recreating the same prejudices completely changed the way I looked at both art and politics. The idea that "the paint job isn't the problem" really sparked an interest in material analysis for me, and I'm sincerely grateful for that.
The people most obsessed with Marvel and Star Wars, today, are the type of people who'd relentlessly mock Marvel and Star Wars fans 25 years ago. And they still relentlessly mock those same people today, for the same thing. They just do it with a slightly different paint job. Now, instead of being mocked just for being a fan, they get mocked for being the wrong kind of fan, or a fan of the old media to the exclusion of the new, no matter how much the new shits on the old. One of Disney's first acts as stewards of Star Wars was to throw out ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that kept the franchise alive between 1983 and 1999. How is that not a huge middle finger to the fans? It was almost like it was precalculated to weed out anyone who might care about Star Wars too much to easily shovel mouse shit onto their dinner plates.
@@IncredibleMD To be fair, their motives are purely capitalistic. Giving fans "a huge middle finger" never even crossed their mind. No profit in that. Treating past extended universe as no longer canon they don't have to pay residuals to anyone who worked on creating all those cultural products - and they own everything from the point of purchase to eternity. And make no mistake. They plan to own it FOREVER. That is why every Star Wars character (hell, most nouns) has had a TM added to their name after being sold to Disney. Cause trademarks NEVER run out. Movies will eventually be public domain, but you will never be allowed to create a story in Star Wars universe or use any of characters, locations or objects in Star WarsTM to create your own stories. Only Disney will ever be able to do that, and it will be done solely to maintain and increase capital. It's dead culture. Same with anything Marvel. Hell, they even lay claim on Dracula (despite its public domain status) trademark and even owned "zombie" despite being a generic and/or religious term. And that's all there from BEFORE purchase by Disney. Dead culture.
@@IncredibleMD God, is there something more lame than to hijack a topic to rant about Star Wars movies, as if a single person here hadn't already heard everything you have to say on the matter ?
That's amazing. There's a lot of downsides to modern life, but the availability of material that can immeasurably expand your awareness is absolutely my favorite part. It gives a blue collar guh like me access to information I'd never have been able to obtain in previous ages.
This feels a bit like a prequel to Line Goes Up. Disenfranchised, entitled dudes attempting to create their own hierarchy, with pixels and DAOs because real men have money. Financial machismo, maybe?
@@Laotzu.Goldbug Having multiple sexual partners every two days is arguably not a deep seated evolutionary trait, yet your mom keeps doing it. Maybe we as a species can memetically evolve past our biological tendencies.
@@fellowgoyimwhite7630 Seriously, how did you end up with the takeaway that "Marla invades Jack's space?" The movie is 100% explicit that Jack's feeling of ownership over this weird hobby is unfounded. Thanks for giving us the "He-Man Women Haters Club" version of events, I guess.
One thing I like about Marla's first appearance is how when Jack describes her, he's basically describing himself, but with a critical inflection. Initially he seems jealous of her ability to own her perceived lack of societal disadvantages, and wishes to not constantly have an improved reflection of himself sitting next to him at meetings.
I wish videos like this were available to me when I was an adolescent. I have so many regrets. The point in this video about geek culture feeling like a rejection of engrained misogyny is something I wish I'd thought of as a younger man.
@strontiumXnitrate Maybe you should reflect on why you consider introspection and recognizing your own actions as unthoughtfuly in line with social norms "self flagellation". Are you so unwilling to recognize that you may participate, consciously or unconsciously, in sexist or misogynistic behavior that you consider it sacrosanct? That speak way more about your stubbornness and inability to question your own behavior than anything about society.
"a generation raised by women" as though that's unique. as though for generations women haven't been pressed into the role of caretaker and child rearer.
"a generation raised by mothers absent of fathers" is a better description. what do u mean by "pressed into" men can not rear children and we have not the ability to feed newborns.. its simple fact of nature not a role women are pressed into..
@@MH-hv1gf oh sorry a translation error on my part. but still i dont get this about being pressed into.. from my experiense mothers take the caretaker role. i can be caretaker when needed like right now when my third child got born 10weeks early. she is in the hospital with the newborn and im home taking care of our 2 other children but when she is home she does most of the traditional caretaker task and i fall into support roll.. as my children gets older my own roll gets more defined and my roll becomes more of that of a mentor, helps my children learn how to use the body, self esteem, how to handle the outside world, morals and self reliance. my wife wants to take care of the children i want to help them take care of themself. i and my wife thinks this balance is needed to make good people of our children.
@@mitte90 glad that's working out for you and your wife. doesn't erase the fact that for many years women in general have been assigned the role of caretaker and homemaker regardless of their own desires and inclinations. while that has changed quite a bit in the last generation or two, those old patterns haven't been completely forgotten.
@@MH-hv1gf well thats how u see it.. i think the way the family unit have evolved have been for all the family members gain. u must remember that the world have not been the same for all history. it have been a hard and unsafe world and the protection and handling of the outside world the father have given have let the mother to take better care of children and her self.. its only in the nearest couple of generations the world have become safe enough for this roll to be somewhat unnecessary, thanks to men. the problem today is to find a balance where mens roll in childcare get balansed with the need to train the next generation of men, to protect the safety we have today and to get woman to take a supporting roll in this task. family is about helping the family to be more then the parts, this dont mean fathers need to be mothers or mothers need to be fathers. we have all different abilitys. if we forget what a man is the world will learn that we need men once again.
Appeal to Nature is an apt way to put it. I live in a building. It is well-lit, spacious & I get protection from wild animals, rain & sunshine. It is "good" this way. But nothing about me living in a box made of bricks is "natural". So, "natural" is not always "good". Take that biotruthers
"first rule of fight club: do not talk about fight club" "aren't you talking about fight club right now?" "second rule of fight club: do not point out the paradoxical nature of the first rule of fight club"
@@ernestpratgarriga9879 The "rule" is intended to be broken by people talking about it outside of the fights. That's how more people joined, and how Project Mayhem was possible. The repetition of the rule is purposely meant to make the members feel like they're "exclusive", encouraging them to brag about it to others (like Bob did). Have some sliver of understanding of the film before ignorantly chastising others.
I loved Fight Club in my teens and watched it now and then up into my 20s. Then I sort of stopped because I felt uncomfortable about it. Not convinced what I liked about it was particularly wise. Seeing to much of it reflected in the madness that is angry men on the internet. This analysis makes me want to watch it again. It reminded me that the pay-off isn't about being as cool and quotable as Tyler Durden or that punching other dudes might help with your frustration. Rather, if you can tear this stuff down, get rid of the thing whispering in your ear about being a manly man, you can actually make some progress with your life. So thanks :)
I had a very similar experience! I absolutely fell in love with Fight Club in high school. I empathized with the Narrator so much. (Despite being a girl, I feel like my mom and dad imposed a lot of unhealthy traits onto me often associated with toxic masculinity also I felt immensely dissatisfied with consumerism and corporate culture). This was my favorite movie for years but once I started to become more engaged in leftist ideas and simultaneously saw a bunch of "edgy" dudes on the right idolizing Tyler, I felt kinda grossed out by it and distanced myself from it. This video reminded me why I liked it so much originally and that those guys are the idiots for misunderstanding the entire message.
I think we all have different viewings of Fight Club as time passes. I loved it in high school; I had no direction regarding what it took to be considered a success as a man, so looking and talking and leading like Tyler did in the film seemed to be a step in the right direction to my testosterone filled self. Of course, none of those aspirations actually materialized (thankfully), and after a lot of frustration, and plenty of success afterwards, I now see the film as a deconstruction of a masculinity that luckily didn't apply to me and a lot of people my age, and a reflection of unreal standards that the men of previous generations were subjected to. Of course, seeing those structures as a thing of the past rather than something I have to live up to speaks of the privilege I had in growing around the people I did. So who knows?
This reminds me of a while ago I saw a video of a typical red-pill type guy (divorced and everything) advertising his pheromone-laced soap. What did he list as the inspiration? He said he was watching the scene in fight club where they make soap and thought "huh, I could make soap". His first scent was Tyler Durden themed, and the next two were James Bond and Top Gun. It's such an appropriate illustration of the literalism that some folks apply to this film. He saw the scene about making soap and his take-away was... make soap. He saw Tyler Durden embodying the toxic masculine ideal that society tells us men should be and his takeaway was "I should be like Tyler Durden". Also, unrelated point: the characters he picked illustrate how male-centric his whole concept of what makes an attractive male is. Women don't talk about Tyler Durden, James Bond or Top Gun as being attractive characters! If you wanted a soap that would attract women based on pop culture characters, you have so many better options!
Same. I even started a fight club at my school and everything. At least it channeled our anger into beating each other up instead of getting in to trouble elsewhere
Speaking as an asexual male, yeah, I agree at around the 4:30 mark. I have no interest in sex at all, and I am constantly told by other people that I am either lying, or that this somehow makes me not a man.
He isn't really. It's a statement of fact. Perhaps your issues with "those people" is really the semiotics of the word "man." As you clearly are male. Perhaps in further dealings with people who say "you're not a man," try and pin a word in there like "traditional," or "normal." Which I think if you were honest with yourself you could agree with and doesn't mean "bad," or "disposable." Best wishes!
cheezemonkeyeater Well you are technically a "man" gender-wise since you (most likely) own a pair of balls. But men, normal healhy men have use for those and you don't. Maybe you should stop being offended and realise you might actually have a problem. I am brutally honest I know. Did you check your T level?
David Smithson There is a lot to make a man, as Kipling so beautifully described but sex drive is definitely part of being a man in normal definition. More than that. It's essential part of being a human. I would say a woman who has no desire in motherhood (ever) is not a healthy, normal woman. He's probably right I am a scumbag.. a bit.
so the guy is being honest about himself and how he hates it how every one dismisses him because of one core part of who he is and the majority of the response is disregarding him in every way possible. Although it seems completely alien, some people aren't attracted to either gender. are we to say they are at fault for this? no, they've done nothing wrong. while you may consider them a "glitch" or not very helpful to the continuation of the human race I'm sure i could find some aspect of you, or indeed anyone including myself, that is not the norm or completely useless to the human race as a whole. pointing out how some one is different doesn't help any one , in fact all you do is alienate that person from those around them. sex is not the high and mighty distinguisher between people and non-people. its just a part of life, you can still have relationships with people just not sexual desires, so what. he isn't mentally ill, in him not giving a damm about sex it doesn't cause himself or those around him pain or anguish. people who are depressed are ill for it causing them mental strife, people who feel as though they were born the wrong gender could be considered unwell as no one should feel misplaced in there own body but being asexual? the only pain he gets from that is the alienation from society. how you aren't allowed to be considered a person and instead are given titles such as glitch or liar. is that the world you want to live in, where we remove someone's identity purely because of something that is not only out of their control but in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter. judge people on who they are not what they are. TLDR: you guys are scumbags.
Gremlech I agree the repliers aren't the most pleasant bunch but I can't say the notion isn't understandable. If I told you that I have a very particular fondness for the sound of people screaming in agony you'd probably think that's weird and unnatural and you most likely wouldn't exactly empathize with me, despite my inability to control it. Does that justify being a douche to someone? Certainly not, but one's first instinct would be to question it since that would imply a serious anomaly if it were true without exaggerating, and in many cases it isn't, in fact. Besides, it's really not something that would majorly affect your social life if you don't go around wearing it as a medal. I doesn't necessarily imply bragging about it, but mentioning it more than really necessary, and thus effectively making it part of who you are, not just what you are.
4chan, and /b/ in particular, is a massive disappointment for exactly this reason - it purports to be subversive and free-thinking, but is actually totally dominated by groupthink, fashion and norms. They compete to prove their status in the group whilst considering themselves rebellious and independent. You can rinse and repeat for pretty much every alternative movement, though - punk, emo, hipsters, anarchists. They all want the buzz of being different without the reality and responsibility of it.
wtf are you even talking about? "punk, emo, hipsters, anarchist" dude get you categories straight. the first is a working class music-subculture from britain having roots in blues and folk, the second is a music genre with some especially devout fans, the third a commercial scam and smearword and the fourth a political ideology which people fought and died for. have a little more respect for history please
@@mikethompson2745 ... I guess I just found the "no, *_you're_* in a cult!" guy. Did you just equate people who want others to not be dicks towards women/minorities with Project Mayhem?
@@mikethompson2745 Well, there we go. The latest, already extremely trite, alt-right argument. All a part of the same kind of master suppression techniques - this one being "heap blame on someone". Jesus, that shit is predictable.
Fight Club is one of the few movies that has changed fundamentally over the years as I've grown old with it. When it first came out I was in my late teens and I enjoyed the Project Mayham stuff and some of the shallow consumerism bashing and the really slick production style. A few years later in my 20's I kind of really identified with the ennui and the "middle children of history" thing and thought that I understood the (pointless) rebellion of just doing something *really* stupid and violent. Embracing a darker nhilistic nature that society both encourages *and* rejects at the same time. I'm approaching 40 now and Fight Club seems to have settled in the last 5-10 years into an ink-black satire that takes a p*ss on... well... everything. Tyler is *not* the answer, the way that in the comic book version of V for Vendetta, V is *not* the answer or a hero. Explicitly, and frequently, Tyler is a f*cking train wreck and a path to misery when given full reign. Narrator is *not* happy or fulfilled in his life when Tyler is in charge. There's a difference between facing fear and even physical hardship and actively seeking out and embracing pointless nihilistic violence. It's a fascinating movie. The book followed a similar arc but it's missing a lot of the subtlety that David Fincher put into the movie I think, and it's one of the few times where I think the movie surpasses the book. The main flaw I see in it personally is that it never has that moment that satire needs where it evaluates, and rejects as being absurd, any kind of real solution.
I had a similar relationship with the movie over time. And I dunno but I suspect if the movie had that aspect you wouldn't have had an evolving relationship with it. I think the ambiguity is necessary for it to have had the cultural standing that it has gained.
This is because it is a good film with cultural staying power. I, too, have had an evolving relationship with this film. The anti-consumerism still reaonates.
I was lucky as a young guy to not fall for any of the toxic mess, except that goddamn did I want Brad Pitt's abs. But alas, I love food and do not get paid millions of dollars to _look like that_ so, you know. Thick, strong thighs for me it is.
I like the book a lot. The book was meant to be satirized male version of a women's self help style book and reading it in that context helps a lot. Each chapter is about a particular philosophy but unlike a womens self help book the thesis isn't written out in each chapter header but is instead buried in a very surreal plot. I think its a book that suits chucks style perfectly because its aim isn't to resolve anything, its all writing prompts or food for thought. The problem with chucks other writing is he comes up with a great writing prompt but never knows how to tie up any of the ideas in a satisfying way. Fight club on the other hand is just really deeply satirical philosophy for life type of chapters and it reads in an interesting way. My favorite part of the book that was changed for the worst in the movie was the car crash scene. In the movie the car crash is done by Tyler in a way to make the narrator give up on his will to live. But in the book the driver is literally just a random mindless drone of Tyler's who us so throughly absorbed into Tyler's entire worldview he is essentially no different from Tyler. He speaks in weird soliloquy and says really open ended things like "If you're male and you're Christian and living in America, your father is your model for God. And if you never know your father, if your father bails out or dies or is never at home, what do you believe about God?" And just shut like that that makes you wonder if he's going to go postal.
Thank you for this. I'm sorry about the abuse you receive, it really does speak to how dark things are/can be. Also, as someone who was assaulted at university and who found the response of others to be incredibly traumatic, hearing you highlight the "what did you expect" response really affected me. Thank you for recognising that expecting little to nothing of men is wrong and hurts us all. Thank you.
What really bugs me are all of those "There is no love like a mother's love" and "The mother is the most important person in regards to your happiness". Like, yes, there are plenty of men who abandon their kids or are shallow, but to make it out like fatherhood is just a trivial element in a person's upbringing is so infuriatingly dismissive that it makes me want to break something.
It’s not that we expect little to nothing of men. It’s that we expect little to nothing of men with regards to empathy, while also expecting rigid compliance and savage competitiveness of men. Society’s expectations of men are horrifically paradoxical.
I would offer that compassion is itself a strength. It can be easy to be callous and self centered. Compassion often means some form of sacrifice, often of time, or of emotional investment, sometimes more. Compassion and Strength are not antonymous.
this video really clarified a lot of my own hangups for me. I hadn't realized that this may help explain why it's only easy to open up to nurturing women, and why there's such pressure on even casual sexual encounters to perform. the first few minutes of your video represent the beginning and end of most conversations about toxic masculinity, but exploring "Jack's" perspective in this analysis allowed you to touch on points I've never even thought of, like how it feels strange to look for female friends without even briefly considering being fwb. thank you for posting this on CZcams.
Here here, dude. This issue even extends to tomboys, my dad wanted a son but got me. From 6th grade onward we had no cable, but Fight Club was one of the five VHS' we had, so guess what I was unintentionally brainwashed with. We both genuinely enjoyed it, of course, but the lack of variety became an issue that wasn't apparent at the time. I wanted so much to be a character and join, but had to be content with being a cheerleader on the sidelines in my fantasy in just the same way as I was passively watching from the other side of the TV. Years before we got that movie I resented the girl scouts for being phony dressed up excuses to sell cookies, and learned to be in the boy scouts where they taught bushcraft and other practical skills while I begrudgingly made paper mache faces with googly eyes. Dad took me to shooting ranges when I was very much underaged (actively instructed me to lie about my age if asked), dragging me kicking and screaming (often in actuality, not just figuratively) into his own very manly hobbies which I did not have an interest in. Even as an adult he relentlessly harassed me to get a conceal and carry until I caved and abided just to shut him up. He encouraged me to pursue my own interests, sure, but he never joined me in mine, whereas I was obligated to join him in his as his little sidekick buddy. I'll never forget, he had these nerf footballs shaped like missiles with whistles in the side, and no matter how many times I froze and curled up when I heard them dropping like bombs, he kept encouraging me to try again. Sure, it was intended as exercise and to build motor skills, but his frustrations were clear: he wanted me to be able to take a hit to the face without flinching, to "man up" as it were. I would make it clear I didn't want to, but we would end up doing those exercises regardless, and every time it would end with me crying and him frustrated or yelling. Whenever I was bullied, he'd encourage me to stand my ground, taught me how to fight back, which is a good thing for everyone to be capable of, but we never looked deeper to solve the issues which were the source of the bullying to begin with. It was all reactionary, a bandaid on the surface. He wanted a boy, and as a tomboy I wasn't enough. Naturally, my only true friends were boys, and things changed in middle school when everyone hit puberty. I didn't feel like a lesbian, didn't have interests in women, but felt like I had to front as one since the guys would nolonger see me as a comrade but rather a walking orifice they yearned to fuck. I didn't understand why things had to change, why we couldn't continue being bros without the sexual tension. I even wished I had been a boy and occasionally contemplated surgery, but knew it wasn't going to help, because I didn't feel like a boy mentally, I simply wanted to hang out with my friends without being hit on. I don't know where I belong. My only friend is my husband. Why can't we tell boys it's ok to be friends with girls, for dads to play along with their daughters for dress up and tea time, and just let a person's interests be their interests without having to label them tomboys and fags.
Roughly 8 years ago I commented on this video about how you didn't understand anything about masculinity, and I think one of the lines I used was "people didn't ever think about things like this at the time." I remember getting a reply from the creator of the video, and it was so long and well thought out that it scared my at the time 13 year old self. I didn't read it, but it definitely planted a seed in my mind, starting to allow me to break through and come to reason. I'm now a 21 year old trans woman, the 13 year old boy who posted that is long gone but I still honestly kept feeling a little intimidated by Folding Ideas. I always felt really embarrassed that I used to be like that, but I've finally come around and now I am watching this peak shit.
Dude- modern masculinity is a hard topic and you somehow got at it. I’m impressed how your Dissertation like Analysis of a movie I personally have taken away the wrong thing from
*In the name of full disclosure,* I am a fifty-something-year-old meaning I'm either Gen-X or nonexistent, depending on who we ask, and I am on the autism spectrum which might or might not inform my disinvestment in masculinity and my unusual opinions about it. That said: I grew up not just in the cold war, but among people who discussed theories and policy around nuclear war. When Reagan introduced the notion of the Strategic Defense Initiative (aka. _star wars_ in lower case), I was hanging around the guys from JPL and CalTech who were thinking about how we would intercept enemy missiles, and make that more cost efficient than building nuclear weapons, or than maintaining our huge nuclear stockpile. Curiously, this informed my idea of masculinity into what I call _Tom Clancy Masculinity_ the notion that far more important than the power a man holds is his capability to mete it out with precision according to circumstances that warrant it. The logic naturally follows from MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) that in a Mexican standoff everyone acts cautiously and deliberately, though there is also an air of nobility to making a gesture of peace that, if unreciprocated leaves him at a disadvantage. But usually IRL most people don't want to gun their rivals down, so de-escalation is welcome. A good example of this kind of masculinity is seen in the Grenzschutzgruppe 9 (GSG 9), to quote Wikipedia _From 1972 to 2003, they reportedly completed over 1,500 missions, discharging their weapons on only five occasions._ an example I would hope could be used to inform how we reform law enforcement throughout the United States to reintroduce a general policy of de-escalation and non-violent resolution. Curiously, there's a point in Fight Club where Jack and Tyler are on a bus (the _is that what a man looks like?_ scene) , and a guy shoves Jack on his way to the back of the bus, and Jack doesn't even respond, which can be interpreted as intersecting with this kind of deliberateness and measure. Here we go: czcams.com/video/Qo4MDlKa05E/video.html *Edit:* Formatting. Added link.
You're actually kinda saying something that Jordan Peterson, of all people, says a lot. A good man is not a weak man. A weak man *can't* be a good man, because in order to do good, one must be strong. A good man is a strong man who is in complete control of his strength. A weak man is an absolute pacifist. A strong man will place his own body between what he loves and evil.
@@IncredibleMD The danger in that thinking is our society's failure to recognize all forms of strength. Just as countless services are accomplished without any direct transaction in what is primarily a capitalist economy, and genius is often missed by placement tests and aptitude tests (either because certain aptitudes aren't screened for, or because some people just suck at tests). Presently, we drive over half our population into menial labor, expendable soldiers or the incarceration system when a truly good society would give all people a chance to find and develop their own strengths, even if it means letting a lot of people slack without punishment or even scorn. We've actually seen how this can manifest during the COVID lockdown in which such a large chunk of the furloughed workforce was able to take a hobby or home project and turn it into a lucrative business, that we experienced the great resignation, and employers used to underpaying and overworking employees had to scramble to find enough people to open business. A society that competes with itself and culls the weak is not a society. That _is_ how ecosystems work, but nature is cruel and brutal, and not being cruel and brutal is our superpower. As we've seen with prior empires and civilizations, the ones who can unite the greatest numbers are the ones that thrive and inherit all the innovation from those numbers. And they're the ones that dominate the rest of the world, whether by good product on the global market or via large well-supplied armies with high technology equipment.
I am kinda proud that ou mention the GSG 9. They were formed after the horrible hostage takings at the Munich Olympics. And they are not totally without fault. But yes, I guess, they are what the SWAT teams should be. On the other side, police in Germany has a longer training (I think at least 3 years) and you need to fulfill certain thresholds. And after studying crown control and defusing aggressive situations, you need to be excellent to join the GSG9 Training. and they are called rarely.
so this is my new favorite youtube channel. Your video about Suicide Squad and editing showed up on my front page today and that was awesome, and this video is just fantastic. You really kick ass. in an intellectual sense.
This is probably the best critical essay about fight club I've ever seen, and the best explanation of toxic masculinity and how a man can be a feminist and advocate for their own rights.
Justin Hurst feminism is for both men and women 💕. We're all suffering under this current situation. It's about humanization. Not feminization of everything.
Yeah the whole feminism is putting men down by putting women up is probably why most people wouldn't consider themselves feminist. And yet its actually the very ideal that feminism tried to contest, one is not better, they are equal. I find people looking at feminism from a patriarchal view and seeing it as trying to take over and steal because that's what the world is all about from that ideology. I guess it's cognitive dissonance, really.
Ummm... Everything you're saying is wrong. I'm now going to misinterpret your point and bring up situations that clearly don't disprove your argument and say they disprove your argument. Then, I will talk about the other side of this issue as though the two are equally bad. I will now proceed to dogwhistle the everloving shit out of this, restating every belief associated with various hate groups without using their terminology. Someone who responds will call me out and point out that the beliefs I am stating like fact originated from hate groups, but I will then call them deluded and say that they are in fact the real hate group. Probably while dogwhistling some more.
Wow, you just summarized all reactionary / alt-right "debaters" on the Internet. I wish they would read your comment and just log off forever, but sadly it's not to be. :\
nfinn42 ... that's a great knock down. If they disagree with you just call em alt-right. Who'd have thought. This video's analysis of the movie is so so far off the mark if he didn't ever mention the title you'd swear he was talking about a totally different movie. Fight Club is the ultimate SJW movie. Practically every fight club member is an sjw fighting to bring down 'the man'.
Such a detailed opinion. /s If you don't understand how a movie about men who feel their masculinity threatened start a club where they act out their own primal instincts to the point that the founder of the club develops a split personality is actually about the concept of 'toxic masulinity', then you are truly blind. But ok, it's about those darn "sjws" (whatever the fuck that term even means anymore) because you said so.
except he didn't lol the whole both babe thing actually did pissed off a lot of the original fans. it did however create a new fan base which kind of took over the old fan base. remember when the media was talking about how "geeks" were a bunch of crying babies virgins because they hated both booth babes & gamer girls (not be confused with girl gamers). real geeks or nerds really didn't give two shits about how women looked at them (or for that matter any one), they just wanted to do what ever it was that made them happy. at the time society considered them weird and thus nerd, geek, spaz & etc were born. the name calling i kind of agree with but even that was mostly done to mess up the other player so they could get a cheap win out of if. im sorry to say but he has a very biased on feminist views.
"real geeks or nerds" Did you even see the video? 1) that's a fallacy called "the no real scotsman fallacy". 2) This very same video you're commenting on deals with the iisue that there is no "real man", no real geek, no real nerd, those are just social concepts people make up so they feel they fit in. In that sense it goes beyond gender, you use terms as "real geek" because as a human you feel the need to label groups of people so you get a better feeling of who you are and who you are not, and where you belong to.
So what is the argument being made? Booth babes are good or bad? Because no matter what I think, someone - usually not even a gamer - will call me a misogynist. If I say I like booth babes then I'm a misogynist who objectifies women, and if I say I don't like booth babes then I'm a misogynist who doesn't want women in my boy's club. So tell me, enlightened ones; what's the proper way to think?
+TetrisClock The key is what do you mean by booth babe. If it is just an ordinary looking woman wearing ordinary clothes staffing booths then they are "good" and accusing them without evidence of being "fakes" is based on the underlying assumption that women do not play games which is a sexist prejudice which has been proven wrong many times over (go look up the market stats yourself depending on genre 3-60% of players are female). However, if we are talking about sexy-models wearing sexy-clothes who don't do anything but look sexy and act suggestively to entice guys over to the booth, then they are "bad" because they are being objectified and exploiting the toxic-masculine stereotype of guys being supposed to want to have sex with any woman wearing revealing clothes for profit.
It saddens me that I'm unable to fully follow the explaination due to the fact that english is not my main language but I liked what I was able to understand heh... thanks for this
@@oof-wi7hp First of all, thank you, appreciate the offer... It's a bit tricky pointing at a specific time stamp, i belive that if I'll listen to it a few more times I'll finally be able to digest the whole thing :)
As someone who has also learned multiple languages, I applaud you. I couldn't imagine how difficult this video would be for me if it were in German or Urdu.
As someone who had rage related blackouts as a teen, Fight Club was always a horror movie I couldn't stop watching. I knew what Tyler was the second I saw him, but I incorporated his ideas into me because he was cool and I was convinced I needed to EMBRACE this shit or I would never get my violent outbursts under control. But the most important scene is the end. Tyler needed to die for 'Jack' to live. We all get angry, but we can't get addicted to our own rage. We can't call it a drug and treat it like occasional indulgence is okay. It needs management, it needs to be worked through, discussed, understood-- it can't be treated like cocaine.
this is a great analysis! it's been really interesting to see the differences in people's viewing of this film based on gender and the way we are socialized. i've heard a lot of guys talk about idolizing tyler/getting the wrong message out of the film when they were young because they felt like tyler was cool and badass. but for me, when i watched this film as a young girl, i always thought that tyler was terrifying. i loved the movie, but i remember spending the whole run time wanting jack to ditch tyler because he was so violent and cruel. the chemical scene will literally stick out in my mind forever as one of the most horrifying movies scenes i ever watched as a kid
The most horrifying to me was Jack beating that man's face into a pulp because he 'wanted to destroy something beautiful'. How that level of senseless cruelty could be idolized by anyone is beyond me.
I watched this movie in high school with some male friends and I'm only now considering that the movie meant something different to them than it did to me. I wasn't critical enough to digest it as being a movie that was specifically for men and about masculinity (which seems extremely obvious now), I only digested the hyperviolence and criticism of consumer culture, because those were the things I liked and could relate to. I have always loved violence and gore so those aspects of the movie actually appealed to me, but I think in a different way than they appeal to men. For a woman, loving violence and gore is inherently subversive, because part of femininity is being expected to faint at the sight of blood, being expected to be passive and dislike violence, etc. Now I'm wondering if I actually like those things, or if I just enjoy the feeling of rejecting the feminine ideal I've been pressured to conform to.
@Ryu -- it traditionally was, though; women were fragile little flowers with delicate sensibilities, prone to hysteria and fainting at the sight of blood. Or so society said. Just check out any number of classic fairytales, or heck, even many old classics romcoms. Women are 'sensitive' doncha know? That's why you can't send them to war. All that blood. . Sure, it's contradictory when one remembers about that pesky monthly bleeding problem. But then again, we don't talk about unladylike, unclean subjects like that, now do we? Or self-pollution. Or intercourse. Or where babies come from. Or... . To be clear, my sarcasm isn't aimed at you, but at society's ridiculousness. : )
@@ryu9123 that's actually really fascinating me. My mom said, she didn't want to ecome a doctor because of blood. But her period was... let's say, she had a dwnright scary flow. And she was totally nonchalant and practical about that. No fainting on the toilet or in the bed. and still, it is funny.
This is honestly my new favorite channel. I've written academic essays about Fight Club and other subjects that you also have other video essays on, but watching this video made me want to go back to that research and wrestle my thesis a little. You hit points that I had never considered while also contextualizing this discussion with issues that surround us today. Great job.
Fight Club - the movie nor David Fincher actually advocate Fight Club the concept. The movie is a critique not only of society that produces such reaction from men, but a critique of the reaction itself. The fact that most cult followers of this movie don't see through this is staggering, but that doesn't mean it's a bad movie, as every single video essay seems to imply. Indeed it is a paramount movie at predicting social issues, the fact that the manosphere practically adopted it as its origin myth leads me to conclude it is one of the most societaly important movies of the 90's, if not the most important. And this importance is, as always, also due to its fantastic cinematography. In other words - obviously one of the great movies.
I came expecting a good video on Fight Club and left having watched one of the best videos I've seen on toxic masculinity, which, if you ask someone under its spell, does not exist.
The sad part is that every person(man or woman) that I know loves the book and film loves it because they idolise Tyler and everything he stands for. But it might be just the national mindset of the country I live in.
+Ida Gramatikova All of my friends who have seen the film or read the book love it. I saw it once and I enjoyed it's ironic sense of humor but after it was over I knew I never wanted to watch it again because it made me feel a little sick.
it's like saying Romeo and Juliet is a love story. They completely miss the point, that Tyler is essentially the villain of fight club, and only take what they see at face value.
Excellent analysis not only of the values championed via the movie, but also a thorough description of toxic masculinity; which, by glancing at the comment section, is needed now more than ever. Thank you .
One of the best ways to live your life is to realise that you don’t have to be either gender. Just take whatever parts of masculinity and femininity you like and mash them together. You can like violent video games and cry when animals get hurt. You can enjoy knitting and wrestling. You can be empathetic and stoic at once. Power, toughness, aggressiveness and stoic ness are requirements for masculinity. But masculinity is not required to be a man. All that requires is to identify as a male and be of at least 18 years of age, or whatever it is in your country. Being a man doesn’t grant you any priveliges or requirements beyond those of being an adult.
To clarify, being a Stoic is being empathethic. What you said about Stoicism is the so called "lowercase s stoicism", which is part of toxic masculinity because it takes only parts of the whole philosophy and distorts them. For example, Stoicism is more about understanding your emotions, while stoicism is about suppressing emotions.
I want to personally thank you for the interesting perspective, I usually lean the other way in my views, but this is a particularly well thought out video that allowed me to see the other side of the issue. Not only that, it showed me well researched insight into one of my favorite movies that I would have never realized on my own. Seriously, great job on this particular topic from someone you might be at odds with.
Hey, hi, I might be late for this train but...I always seen at least small elements of the narrative as little nods about the creator's real life. The writer, Chuck Palahniuk is homosexual and this should cast some light over questions such as "Why is Marla the only speaking female character?". Thinking about that, one could create a very intersting meta narrative about a man confronting his "alternative" sexuality, wanting so bad to be "straight" even lying to himself about his desires (a very common pain through homosexual people, victims of what society thinks about their nature). Tyler IS in fact everything the narrator wants to be and he's masculine as all hell, he even has that sexual relationship with Marla that the Narrator seems incapable to have. Just a thought.
***** Eh...I seriously doubt it. Yeah, Tyler and the narrator share some pretty intimate moments, obviously the whole repressed sexuality coming to play, but remember that in the end is the narrator the one trying at all cost to kill Tyler, realizing that he's nothing more than a toxic stereotype of what he wanted to be, pure desire, unmitigated by reason.
***** Mh. Dunno. It's seems a really platonic gesture to me, like he had problems with her before because of his perception of sexuality and the pressure of "what a man should do with a woman" thing and now he sees her as a person and not strictly a woman. A person that he grew to understand. Consider the fact that during the whole movie he seems irritated by the mere presence of Marla without any particular reason outside of "she blows my cover" . He is a liar, a closeted homosexual who's trying to fit in but in the presence of the ultimate test, a woman, he can't act according to his charade.
It's a fun theory, but I don't think it's likely. If you've read the majority of Palahniuk's books, screwed up hetero relationships are the norm and a lot of his male protagonists have issues with women. It's just a common character trait he writes, not that I think it says anything intensely profound about the writer himself. Marla/Jack's dynamic is far from unusual when compared to the dysfunctional hetero couples in many of his other books (Diary, Survivor, and Snuff are all good examples).
I've never seen the film, but isn't it just as likely that the film is about toxic masculinity and the problems thereof, and that having more female characters could potentially dilute the message (from the point of view that having more female characters would require more very careful and thought-out interactions so as not to undercut the primary focus of the film, and that perhaps this was deemed too risky a line to walk creatively)?
Fight Club was always one of my favorite movies, which I *thought* was really weird because I have a brother and very sensitive and sweet male friends and I'm totally against toxic masculinity for their sake in a very passionate way, but your analysis was like...YES that's exactly why I like this movie! OMG I hadn't even thought about that! Your explanation of toxic vs. healthy masculinity is the most eloquent one I've heard. I will definitely be recommending this video.
This video has kicked my ass. I really liked fight club when I first saw it, but I didn't know why until now. And I'm not being gullible, I think you really have captured all the reasons it resonated with me and deconstructed them. I haven't felt this small and alone in a long time. I don't know what I want as a human being anymore. Fuck.
The only issue is that these aren't things I've been taught to want. I genuinely have built a big part of my life around chasing these things which the video exposes as trite, predictable, and indefensible. The video notes that Robert Paulson is the commendable character, but he's always been my nightmare, and the video is kind of right. Admitting I'm a failure is a big pill to swallow.
I don't think that's correct. I mean, you have the ability to question yourself and not take this as a personal attack. that's better than most of the internet. I commend you for that and you should be proud. I think this video needs a caveat. It's ok to like manly shit, what's not ok is to feel like you have to like manly shit because you are a man, or not liking them makes you less of a man (whatever that's supposed to mean)
TopHatPangolin no mather how many times that last part is said, still people take offense to it, god fucking dammit. Also, I love that the official term is "manly shit".
The comic book sequel (which the author wrote but didn't draw) is all about how the characters became became something outside the author, how you lose control of your story once you give it to the audience. It was kind of poorly executed, but really interesting, at least.
The problem is the term toxic masculinity. There is nothing wrong with masculinity, but there is something wrong with toxic people in general. he is combining two things that should not be combined and as a result it becomes sexism. If a woman tells gossip about another person, it doesn't give you the right to call it something like toxic femininity (if that's even a word). Combining a negative act to a persons gender is just wrong. I could come up with all kinds of arguments why women generally tell more gossips than men, but it's still just sexism if you give it a gender based label like that. Besides it's just a movie and not a guideline for men on how to behave in the world. Bad people appear in movies and bad stuff happens, but guess what it's not real. It's a great movie and that's it really.
daan I think you're making a basic mistake in your logic and it's that "masculinity" refers to someone's gender. It doesn't. It's a term that refers to a social construct. It's the social construct that is toxic, i.e. the ideas we associate with being "a real man" (which is a social construct in itself). So it's not sexist to say toxic masculinity, because (as this video explains) it doesn't mean that being a man is toxic, but rather that certain characteristics culturally associated with manliness are.
The idea that behaving like a man is somehow a social construct is absurd. masculinity is something that drives our evolution, so it made us and not the other way around. Let's take for example one of the masculine characteristics, aggression. Pretty much in every animal species the males are way more aggressive, is that a social construct? In case you don't know what the terms "social construct" and "masculinity" mean, here are the definitions: social construct: "an idea that has been created and accepted by the people in a society" Masculinity does refer to gender, let me give you the exact definition: "possession of the qualities traditionally associated with men." So do you still think we (as a society) just made up masculine traits?? And if so than how on earth does that work?
You know, I rarely ever consider the amount of stress it must take to be a creator with any kind of notoriety. Human nature will find or manufacture flaws and deliver them back to the creator 100x amplified, regardless of the basis of the criticism. I can't imagine how much mental turmoil that creates, but the last 3-5 minutes of this video really put it into a perspective I could step into as I've faced, as I'm sure almost every other person, almost each insult that was listed. Your videos are fine works that will stand the test of time, and I truly appreciate everything you do on and for this platform and Humanity as a whole.
Thank you! This was amazing. I have been in the same position of being derided because I'm not manly enough my whole life. And I have always tried to not bend to social pressure. It's nice to have a voice like yours putting the phenomenon in the appropriate context.
this is one of my favorite CZcams videos ever. and as someone with an average 6 hour daily screen time on youtube, that's a pretty big deal. I feel like this video is not just incredibly well done, but genuinely important. it's so refreshing to hear a man speak so eloquently on toxic masculinity, and I think a lot of teen boys should see this. and the part that gets me, 22:13, "a world where being a man encompasses both of this (be a man in mulan) and this (crying in each other's arms)". fucking perfect. it always gets me.
This was one of the best movie/story breakdowns that I've ever listened to on CZcams. Thank you so much for taking the time to breakdown, research, and go in depth on this topic.
This is literally the most well thought out and persuasive explanation of what toxic masculinity is and how it impacts society. I say this as a man who has only been met with some seriously vacuous definitions from humanoid broken records. I appreciate this perspective and I will share this as the standard.
I don't even have the words to express how much I appreciate and agree with all of this. I love your videos SO, so much. I can't believe it's taken me so long to find them. They're brilliant and you're awesome. I''ve been spamming my friends with links.
This was a phenomenal analysis. So much of life and culture is wound up in toxic masculinity and it's so great to see people like you critically analyze this phenomenon and see everything from a respective distance in order to gage an understanding of toxic masculinity and bring that understanding and validation of that understanding to others. I love to see things like this that show it's acceptable to be 'incomplete' or 'lacking' when really the definition of this whole and ideal self is merely inflexible to nuance and genuineness. I think a formality of this has really been missing for me recently and your video has helped me form an idea and understanding of accepting myself as an "un-ideal man", who feels and understands and is able to cry and love and accept and nourish himself and others. Thank you for this. This is important to me, and i greatly appreciate you for making this and sharing it with the world
I remember so many of my friends, well maybe not so much friends as classmates.. who saw that movie and in stead of seeing any deeper message in the movie, just thought: "Fighting is cool! Let's start with Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) fighting." And I was just thinking quietly to myself: "I really don't think that was the message..." I actually start to wonder if Fight Club is responsible for boosting MMA fighting into mainstream popularity.
Love this video.Very well thought out. I would say that I always thought Marla was another personality of the narrator, and so, therefore a lot of her feminism is filtered through this skewed sense of masculinity. You touched on some of the ideas I think about all the time in regards to this subject. Very well done.
This is... amazing. No other words... just... wow. Putting together words is part of my living, and I will never be able to match this. You've given me a new vocabulary to talk about these issues. Thank you.
christ i love this analysis. i'm recommending it to all my friends who like media analyses. and all my friends who like socio-political analyses. ugh. thanks for this.
@Manophere. com And if they did come from women, would that make it less sexist? Would that make the ideal of toxic masculinity less ingrained inn culture? The only one prescribing these ideas to a certain gender is you. Also worth noting that child support is actually a two way street. Both men and women can claim child support from a parent that does't take care of the child.
@@varadhk3159 In most circumstances I would agree with you, but in this case we are talking about concepts ingrained in culture that while applicable primarily to men, its propagation is due to society as a whole.
@@varadhk3159 What? Of course it does. You don't have to respond, you know. If you feel like you don't have to or don't want to respond to something, you can just.... not respond. Don't go making up bs to get out of it.
Thank you for being this voice on the internet. I can't tell you how much I appreciate what you're doing: the topics you have the balls (and isn't that an ironic turn of phrase) to tackle head-on and take an actual stance on, backed up with research and critical thinking. Thanks for keeping at it.
I...seriously, thank you. You basically put every feeling i have towards movies in to words in a way I couldn't. Teach me your ways, senpai! Also, pls don't stop making these.
I think this is the best deconstruction of Fight Club I've seen to date. I tend to steer clear of men who claim that Fight Club is their favorite movie, not because I think Fight Club is a bad movie or because I don't like it, but because often they seem to like it so much for exactly the wrong reasons. They fail to understand that it's not really about men finding a space where they can 'be men' but almost the exact opposite. Anyways, I meander. This was an excellent analysis on the concept of toxic masculinity. You raise some very good points. Next time someone tells me Fight Club is their favorite movie I'll send them this video.
Love this, such a great take on the film. I think a lot of us were aware of these themes, but couldn't put it so precisely as you. I'm gonna share this but I'm afraid most people won't slow down there lives to view it, but there is always hope.
I first saw this film 12 years ago, and it's been with me ever since. It was the beginning of my discussion with myself about manhood, masculinity and what kind of human I want to be. You just added a new perspective, so thank you.
Hey, i´ve been watching your videos non stop for the last couple of days, and i need to say... THANKS! I love how you tackle with the problems that not only affect nerds/gamers/freaks, but that also plague or society constantly. I´ll recommend this channel to everyone from now on, good work!
I'm non-binary and was absolutely obsessed with this movie in college. I watched it over and over and more than once cried at the end. It hit so many buttons related to everything I was internally wrestling with at the time.
Thanks for making a video that's both approachable, and not shrill explaining and exploring toxic masculinity. This was kind of my gateway, pointing out there's a problem inside me, and helping me come to more peace. Thanks so much.
Thanks for the great video! Fight Club is one of my favorite films and I love hearing interpretations of it. Your analysis was enlightening and thorough and I'm looking forward to watching your video again, thanks!
Umm... Toxic masculinity isn't a real thing. Nobody rewards a boy for getting into a fight at school, or a man for beating his wife. Nobody praises guys for being overly sexually aggressive. A woman accuses a man of rape and his life is ruined, even if the claim is absolutely ridiculous and not at all true. And before you attack me and call me a dudebro or something, I'm a girl.
men may not be necessarily "rewarded" for hyper sexuality or violence, but it's the idea that men crying is seen as "gay". its the idea that any traditional feminine qualities on a man are seen as shameful. I have seen multiple men in my time made fun of for not fitting our idea of a male stereotype. toxic masculinity, the idea that men need to be a certain way (men can't cry, wear certain colors, men are the head of the household, men have to pay, men can't touch each other) all stem from the idea that being masculine and being strong are synonyms and in order to be manly, that means they have to be strong. So instead of crying when they're upset, they get angry and feel the need to get into a fight. Or maybe holding in these emotions that portray them as weaker is what has lead to the high suicide rates of men. And yes falsely accusing men of rape is a completely awful and disgusting thing, only about 2-8% of rape accusations are false, and about 97% of rapists never actually get sent to jail. Looking at those statistics mean that it may be a more pressing issue to send rapists to jail. but toxic masculinity does exist. Its quite literally killing men. teaching boys that they have to be strong or else their not a man is an ideal society should begin shying away from. did't want an argument but hey, just maybe some food for thought.
There's a popular shirt out there, you may have seen variants of it. It's the "Rules for dating my daughter." One popular version says on the front "guns don't kill people, dads with pretty daughters kill people." While the commission of violence is rarely truly rewarded, the posturing of the willingness to do violence is rewarded. It's seen as a virtue, a positive value. We make shirts joking about it, and rather than being some horrifying edgelord crap it's shared on facebook and pintrest with a tee hee, "so true!" Also Donald Trump has multiple legitimate and horrifying rape accusations outstanding against him, and he's going to be President, so clearly it doesn't actually ruin lives quite as efficiently as you're making it sound.
"There's a popular shirt out there, you may have seen variants of it. It's the "Rules for dating my daughter." One popular version says on the front "guns don't kill people, dads with pretty daughters kill people."" It's a joke based on the idea that fathers are very protective or their daughters. Over the top? Yes, but that's kind of the point. "the posturing of the willingness to do violence is rewarded. It's seen as a virtue, a positive value." That's because it can be a positive value, especially when looking for a partner. Women want and need a protector, whether they acknowledge it consciously or not. Now sure, the "protector" role has become somewhat meaningless in this civilized world of ours, but I still don't see how being able to use violence as a means to protect yourself and your loved ones can be considered bad or "toxic."
+Chris Ferguson That's nice that the points go right over your head. I once accidently ruined someone's birthday because he came over to my friend's house, insulted the "cleanliness", and legitimized a pretty gross rape-endorsing joke. My point is, some people just don't get it. You're one of those people.
Folding Ideas The "rules for dating my daughter" shirt is a joke. People are allowed to have different senses of humor. The Donald Trump allegations, despite the fact that Donald Trump is a horrible person and has actually committed crimes, are ridiculous. Besides that, Donald Trump is rich and can defend himself. There are many people who can't and have their lives ruined.
This was enlightening. It's been a long time since I saw that movie; I've learned a lot since then. Memories have been dredged back up, and I am glad to find my feelings then largely agree with my present and now more complete understanding. Also, now the ending makes a good deal more sense (emotionally).
Your analysis is nothing short of incredible, and on top that, your writing is a joy to listen to. I just subscribed, and I look forward to seeing what else is in your video library. You deserve more subs.
Phenomenal analysis. I've written my own essay about Fight Club, but it was specifically focused on the themes of internalized and societal homophobia that so many people involved with Fight Club are so quick to deny, and something I wish people would address more because it's not very subtle at all (to me, at least). This is only making me want to go turn that into a video essay.
+Hayden I think the film is very homoerotic, and the author of the book it's based on later came out as gay, as I recall. Are you saying you experience the film as homophobic? Just curious.
That's weird, cause one of the things I drew from it long-term was a sort of neutral, unfazed attitude towards homosexuality, in a "women and sexual conquest do not make you better" sort of way. An assuredness in one's own sexuality, and a recognition of mega-heterosexuality as being without inherent value (and homosexuality, by proxy, being no worse), allowing one to write advances or accusations off as meaningless. I don't know why I associate this train of thought with Fight Club. Maybe it's a by-product of the "women and woman-associated elements are without value (as nothing has value, aside from being free of control and influence of others)" attitude, or of the desire to remain unaffected, cool, and infallible in the face of challenge (no influence, challenge has no meaning or value). I don't know. As a perceived loser in my formative years, Fight Club appealed to and influenced me a lot, and 10 years later I'm still having trouble deciding whether those influences were good or not. I'd love to hear your ideas though, you should totally do the video essay thing.
I think it's interesting that you saw a view of "women are unimportant" or "without value" ideal coming from Fight Club, because I think that it's far less about ambivalence towards women than active anger and misogyny. I think that Jack has a clear latent homoerotic streak - and so, in many respects does mainstream masculinity. But the big takeaway for me in regards to sex (and many other things in society in this film) is an angry, sour grapes mentality, just how Foldy said that their problems weren't so much with the masculine ideals, and the trappings of them, but rather that they didn't personally get them. Incidentally, my favourite thing in the whole movie is watching Brad Pitt complain to Jared Leto that they're never going to be movie gods or rock stars... always makes me chuckle
this essay was remarkably well written and beautiful. It makes me happy to see men acknowledging their own repression. I'm a feminist and I hate the way third wave feminism doesn't acknowledge why so many men are damaged and uncapable of having healthy relationships. Maybe it's because we are a part of the problem. It's our responsibility to break this cycle and yet i still see women endorsing it and calling themselves feminists saying "men don't cry" "don't be a pussy" and "you're not a real man"
Check out Men's Lib on reddit or facebook for people that support feminism but are also building support for men :) That being said,I'm a man and most support I've got was from feminists :)
I feel like it's a little bit of a deeper problem than the extreme case telling men to open up and be vulnerable while hypocritically sipping from their "male tears" mugs. In my experience, feminism all too often ends up simply being a re-branding of the same traditionalist values in the same way that fight club/project mayhem are in the movie. It's the same call for men to take assertive action in the interests of mostly women while holding enough emotional stoicism to set aside one's own personal issues so that they can serve the greater cause. The same total willingness to shame someone into the model by challenging their masculinity through their inability to attain female validation. Even the same reduction of women to passive objects with little to no agency or potency. It also feels largely out of touch with what masculinity even is. So A LOT of definitions of "toxic masculinity" tend to resemble an outsider's caricature instead of a real critical analysis. Generally I find it comes across just as ineffectively as Fox News does when they talk about "what's wrong with the black community".
Lots of feminists want equality to go both ways! :) There's the He for She campaign amongst many other things. Like any identity or culture, it's always the most 'extreme' sections that will shout the loudest, but the majority of feminists I've met are very supportive of men's issues.
Blithe W it always makes me upset when other feminists dont recognize the way they perpetuate the system theyre trying to deconstruct, especially when it becomes intersectional and not just about them. in an attempt to help it sometimes does worse and while some feminists try their best to fix their mistakes (i used to perpetuate ideas that i was better than other girls because i was a tomboy; something that i found later wasn't mandatory or necessary) others are just as bad as men who refuse to admit we do need to deconstruct these toxic ideals
I am seeing and responding when this is 7 years old. I wanted to post about fight clubs prescient presentation of why the US (and other countries) are seeing such a consolidation and passion of tribal politics and politicians using that to further their own goals (and regularly believing in it themselves). Instead, I am going to offer you something you don’t need and probably get elsewhere. Affirmation. Thank you for sharing the responses you get. Those are unfortunate but not unexpected. As one person who only started to peruse your channel because Movies with Mikey suggested it, I am slowly working my way through your dense and prolific body of work. There are many aspects of your work that I would disagree with you over a beverage, but you make me think. You have brought a range of new ideas and new information to my mind and I appreciate that. Your work has had me reconsider some presumptions and explore many areas that I honestly don’t have much curiosity about until your presentation. Thank you for that most of all. Also, your work is interesting. I laugh at myself watching a man sitting on his couch lecturing for nearly 2 hours. (And yes, I was periodically distracted by the cat.). That is a mark of the quality of your work and the skill you bring to this craft. Thank you. Again, you probably don’t need this, but here it is anyways.
I never fucking understood why everyone always thought that tyler was the 'hero', it was always readily apparent to me that jack was. He was trying to find purpose and peace, without having to be something he's not, and this asshole [his own ID] comes along and just ruins everything, ruining everything in the process... jack cared about marla, tyler just wanted to fuck her, jack thought of bob as a friend, tyler thought of him as a tool, jack wanted community [from project mayhem], tyler wanted revenge... It was painfully obvious how self destructive, rage filled, and antisocial tyler was... and in the end jack overcomes him, and is a better person [from the his own prespective, he was fighting tyler's destructive nature the whole way through, with a few exceptions where he was just plain duped] for it. He literally beats his own shadow and comes away a from it better for it... But somehow, most people seem to come away thinking tyler was the hero, even still, even after all he did to ruin everything around him, how hard jack fought him, and how he lost in the end... It's always confused the fuck out of me.
1. If you aren't comfortable with the term "toxic masculinity", call it something else. Call it "machismo and chauvinism". Call it whatever. Whatever you call it, you need to see that there are certain masculine traits and behaviors that can be too much of a good thing. It's harmful to themselves and others. If you need an example of why toxic masculinity is harmful, imagine an untrained individual jumping off a cliff without a parachute because they need to prove that they are fearless. They die because they did something stupid in order to prove their masculinity. By the same token, an untrained individual dying in a house fire because he went back in to save his wife and kids is an example of beneficial masculinity. I2. If biotruths about masculinity and femininity are so ingrained into our brains, why is it so easy to defy them? That's easy if you know your sociology. The gender roles that base themselves around those biotruths are social constructs and are NOT ingrained into the human psyche. Men aren't born a Tyler Durden and then society weakens them. Men can develop into Tyler Durden, but they can also not develop into a Tyler Durden. 3. Why is masculinity and feminity a zero-sum game? To go back to the example about the guy in the house fire, he did something fearless because he felt an emotion. I would consider that guy a "real man". Wouldn't you?
@@yonatanbeer3475 What if he saves his children, but dies from smoke inhalation? The firefighters would not have arrived in time, so he dies but his children live instead of the opposite. Is that the same as jumping off a cliff to be manly?
Brilliant analysis and breakdown! Easily one of the best I’ve seen for what is one of my favorite films/books. I appreciate your brutal honesty in your reading of Fight Club as a deconstruction and criticism of fascism, toxic masculinity, and capitalism it truly is.
I love your channel. I have watched several of your videos recently. Great stuff. You are a very smart guy and your videos are thought provoking and well made. That being said I find it difficult to be objective about Fight Club because it is one of my favorite films and a part of me sees your commentary as critisism I must not tolerate. Yet, inarguably, you have nailed exactly what the film-makers, if not the author of the source material which I haven't read, originally intended. Fight Club was a film about violence. But its purpose wasn't glorifying violence but rather explaining it and trying to make the nature of that violence understood.
I considered commenting specifically on the video, but then I read the comments, and you know what? I think I'm good. Dan, if you read current comments on older videos, I'm a new viewer, having found your work through the brief discussion with Lindsay Ellis w/r/t RENT on Twitter which then turned into your (as of the time of this writing) most recent video regarding the framing of RENT and the Take Me Out / Light My Candle / Whatever the third song in that sequence scene. I've marathon watched the first four seasons and intend to continue with the next two and then go through the minisodes and all that and just. I really like your work. All of it. Well done and thank you.
Pr0gram McSynth I found him through Ms. Ellis’s work too! I’m so glad I did; this content is interesting and couched in a way I’ve not heard before. I love finding stuff like this on CZcams. Cheers! 😊
"If i reject sport, ball and cars, if i reject jock culture, then i have by nature rejected misogyny and toxic masculinity. That's not true"
Great Take. Thank you!
Thats a steryotype
@@fellowgoyimwhite7630 can you elaborate?
@@fellowgoyimwhite7630 Yep, that'd be the point.
A lot of incels need to hear this
Yea, he basically summed up all of the issues of the horrible jokes in Big Bang Theory. 'Oh, haha, he was a racist misogynist, but he's a nerd! Hilarious!' I could never figure out how that show kept going
just wanted to say that when I first came across this video 6 years ago, your points about how subcultures often reject the aesthetics of dominant culture while recreating the same prejudices completely changed the way I looked at both art and politics. The idea that "the paint job isn't the problem" really sparked an interest in material analysis for me, and I'm sincerely grateful for that.
The people most obsessed with Marvel and Star Wars, today, are the type of people who'd relentlessly mock Marvel and Star Wars fans 25 years ago. And they still relentlessly mock those same people today, for the same thing. They just do it with a slightly different paint job.
Now, instead of being mocked just for being a fan, they get mocked for being the wrong kind of fan, or a fan of the old media to the exclusion of the new, no matter how much the new shits on the old. One of Disney's first acts as stewards of Star Wars was to throw out ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that kept the franchise alive between 1983 and 1999. How is that not a huge middle finger to the fans? It was almost like it was precalculated to weed out anyone who might care about Star Wars too much to easily shovel mouse shit onto their dinner plates.
@@IncredibleMD well put
@@IncredibleMD To be fair, their motives are purely capitalistic. Giving fans "a huge middle finger" never even crossed their mind. No profit in that.
Treating past extended universe as no longer canon they don't have to pay residuals to anyone who worked on creating all those cultural products - and they own everything from the point of purchase to eternity. And make no mistake. They plan to own it FOREVER.
That is why every Star Wars character (hell, most nouns) has had a TM added to their name after being sold to Disney. Cause trademarks NEVER run out.
Movies will eventually be public domain, but you will never be allowed to create a story in Star Wars universe or use any of characters, locations or objects in Star WarsTM to create your own stories.
Only Disney will ever be able to do that, and it will be done solely to maintain and increase capital.
It's dead culture.
Same with anything Marvel.
Hell, they even lay claim on Dracula (despite its public domain status) trademark and even owned "zombie" despite being a generic and/or religious term.
And that's all there from BEFORE purchase by Disney.
Dead culture.
@@IncredibleMD God, is there something more lame than to hijack a topic to rant about Star Wars movies, as if a single person here hadn't already heard everything you have to say on the matter ?
That's amazing. There's a lot of downsides to modern life, but the availability of material that can immeasurably expand your awareness is absolutely my favorite part. It gives a blue collar guh like me access to information I'd never have been able to obtain in previous ages.
"We just don't have time"
Given the several hour long videos that Dan's been making lately, this is quaint
This feels a bit like a prequel to Line Goes Up. Disenfranchised, entitled dudes attempting to create their own hierarchy, with pixels and DAOs because real men have money. Financial machismo, maybe?
@doingitwelldotbiz line goes up And this is financial advice.
@@doingitwelldotbiz Bro, wanting money doesn't have shit to do with machismo
@testacals uh huh, please tell me again mr. uh... Testicles, how dudebros such as yourself aren't obsessed with masculinity.
I look forward to one day watching Folding Ideas videos in theaters
Wow, the treatment of Marla invading the male support groups and Jack's reaction is spot on with "Fake Geek Girl" issue in nerd culture.
@Markus Achilles Jesus H fucking Christ you bots need to learn to read the room.
yes absolutely
@@Laotzu.Goldbug
Having multiple sexual partners every two days is arguably not a deep seated evolutionary trait, yet your mom keeps doing it. Maybe we as a species can memetically evolve past our biological tendencies.
@@kaisburg2450 you watching Hasan?
@@glueplay never heard of him. You should check out Hank Pecker though, very based
“I am Jack’s inability to relate to women outside of a social context.”
Marla invades Jack's space and He need to do something ?
@@fellowgoyimwhite7630 It wasn't Jack's space to begin with. He didn't belong there any more than she did.
@@fellowgoyimwhite7630 Seriously, how did you end up with the takeaway that "Marla invades Jack's space?" The movie is 100% explicit that Jack's feeling of ownership over this weird hobby is unfounded.
Thanks for giving us the "He-Man Women Haters Club" version of events, I guess.
One thing I like about Marla's first appearance is how when Jack describes her, he's basically describing himself, but with a critical inflection. Initially he seems jealous of her ability to own her perceived lack of societal disadvantages, and wishes to not constantly have an improved reflection of himself sitting next to him at meetings.
Hmm... Suddenly I wonder if Marla isn't just another split--personality projection Jack is interacting with.
@@VSPhotfries those are some intense wanks
@@aj7058 AHAHAHAHAHAHA YOUR COMMENT MADE MY FUCKING NIGHT
@@VSPhotfries actually, she is.(He is not Jack tho. He does not have name)
Exactly
I wish videos like this were available to me when I was an adolescent. I have so many regrets. The point in this video about geek culture feeling like a rejection of engrained misogyny is something I wish I'd thought of as a younger man.
@strontiumXnitrate Leave troll
@@nano-liam Weird how incels always post novels in response, huh?
strontiumXnitrate go fuck yourself misogynist
@strontiumXnitrate Maybe you should reflect on why you consider introspection and recognizing your own actions as unthoughtfuly in line with social norms "self flagellation". Are you so unwilling to recognize that you may participate, consciously or unconsciously, in sexist or misogynistic behavior that you consider it sacrosanct? That speak way more about your stubbornness and inability to question your own behavior than anything about society.
@@attackfighter Gotta love how i order to frame yourself as the rational one you have to invent a backstory for me. The most rational.
"a generation raised by women" as though that's unique. as though for generations women haven't been pressed into the role of caretaker and child rearer.
"a generation raised by mothers absent of fathers" is a better description. what do u mean by "pressed into" men can not rear children and we have not the ability to feed newborns.. its simple fact of nature not a role women are pressed into..
@@mitte90 men aren't capable of child rearing? what a fun view you have of fathers
@@MH-hv1gf oh sorry a translation error on my part. but still i dont get this about being pressed into.. from my experiense mothers take the caretaker role. i can be caretaker when needed like right now when my third child got born 10weeks early. she is in the hospital with the newborn and im home taking care of our 2 other children but when she is home she does most of the traditional caretaker task and i fall into support roll.. as my children gets older my own roll gets more defined and my roll becomes more of that of a mentor, helps my children learn how to use the body, self esteem, how to handle the outside world, morals and self reliance. my wife wants to take care of the children i want to help them take care of themself. i and my wife thinks this balance is needed to make good people of our children.
@@mitte90 glad that's working out for you and your wife. doesn't erase the fact that for many years women in general have been assigned the role of caretaker and homemaker regardless of their own desires and inclinations. while that has changed quite a bit in the last generation or two, those old patterns haven't been completely forgotten.
@@MH-hv1gf well thats how u see it.. i think the way the family unit have evolved have been for all the family members gain. u must remember that the world have not been the same for all history. it have been a hard and unsafe world and the protection and handling of the outside world the father have given have let the mother to take better care of children and her self.. its only in the nearest couple of generations the world have become safe enough for this roll to be somewhat unnecessary, thanks to men. the problem today is to find a balance where mens roll in childcare get balansed with the need to train the next generation of men, to protect the safety we have today and to get woman to take a supporting roll in this task. family is about helping the family to be more then the parts, this dont mean fathers need to be mothers or mothers need to be fathers. we have all different abilitys. if we forget what a man is the world will learn that we need men once again.
"Biotruth -- something that's an emergent property of biology and thus immune to criticism." This WILL be on the test.
Like if human biology was that simple :D
It's the interpretation that counts.
It's more commonly known as the Appeal to Nature logical fallacy.
I don't get the whole 'natural = good' thing. Give those lazer eyes, rocket hands, and neural enhancements. True men aren't men at all, but robots.
Appeal to Nature is an apt way to put it.
I live in a building. It is well-lit, spacious & I get protection from wild animals, rain & sunshine. It is "good" this way.
But nothing about me living in a box made of bricks is "natural".
So, "natural" is not always "good". Take that biotruthers
"first rule of fight club: do not talk about fight club"
"aren't you talking about fight club right now?"
"second rule of fight club: do not point out the paradoxical nature of the first rule of fight club"
While out of fight club you fuckin idiot
First rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club
@@IsaacMayerCreativeWorks Nice xkcd reference lol
@@ernestpratgarriga9879 then maybe say that in the rule you fuckin idiot
@@ernestpratgarriga9879 The "rule" is intended to be broken by people talking about it outside of the fights. That's how more people joined, and how Project Mayhem was possible. The repetition of the rule is purposely meant to make the members feel like they're "exclusive", encouraging them to brag about it to others (like Bob did). Have some sliver of understanding of the film before ignorantly chastising others.
I loved Fight Club in my teens and watched it now and then up into my 20s. Then I sort of stopped because I felt uncomfortable about it. Not convinced what I liked about it was particularly wise. Seeing to much of it reflected in the madness that is angry men on the internet. This analysis makes me want to watch it again. It reminded me that the pay-off isn't about being as cool and quotable as Tyler Durden or that punching other dudes might help with your frustration. Rather, if you can tear this stuff down, get rid of the thing whispering in your ear about being a manly man, you can actually make some progress with your life.
So thanks :)
I had a very similar experience! I absolutely fell in love with Fight Club in high school. I empathized with the Narrator so much. (Despite being a girl, I feel like my mom and dad imposed a lot of unhealthy traits onto me often associated with toxic masculinity also I felt immensely dissatisfied with consumerism and corporate culture). This was my favorite movie for years but once I started to become more engaged in leftist ideas and simultaneously saw a bunch of "edgy" dudes on the right idolizing Tyler, I felt kinda grossed out by it and distanced myself from it. This video reminded me why I liked it so much originally and that those guys are the idiots for misunderstanding the entire message.
I think we all have different viewings of Fight Club as time passes. I loved it in high school; I had no direction regarding what it took to be considered a success as a man, so looking and talking and leading like Tyler did in the film seemed to be a step in the right direction to my testosterone filled self. Of course, none of those aspirations actually materialized (thankfully), and after a lot of frustration, and plenty of success afterwards, I now see the film as a deconstruction of a masculinity that luckily didn't apply to me and a lot of people my age, and a reflection of unreal standards that the men of previous generations were subjected to.
Of course, seeing those structures as a thing of the past rather than something I have to live up to speaks of the privilege I had in growing around the people I did. So who knows?
This reminds me of a while ago I saw a video of a typical red-pill type guy (divorced and everything) advertising his pheromone-laced soap. What did he list as the inspiration? He said he was watching the scene in fight club where they make soap and thought "huh, I could make soap". His first scent was Tyler Durden themed, and the next two were James Bond and Top Gun. It's such an appropriate illustration of the literalism that some folks apply to this film. He saw the scene about making soap and his take-away was... make soap. He saw Tyler Durden embodying the toxic masculine ideal that society tells us men should be and his takeaway was "I should be like Tyler Durden".
Also, unrelated point: the characters he picked illustrate how male-centric his whole concept of what makes an attractive male is. Women don't talk about Tyler Durden, James Bond or Top Gun as being attractive characters! If you wanted a soap that would attract women based on pop culture characters, you have so many better options!
wow this proves again how much testosterone a man can lose in just a decade
Same. I even started a fight club at my school and everything. At least it channeled our anger into beating each other up instead of getting in to trouble elsewhere
The fact that this movie hits all of these points but yet was made 15 years before Gamergate happened is incredible
how much this video overlaps gamergate almost makes it painful to watch as someone who fell down the rabbit hole at 14 and cringes at it now
Time is a flat circle
These ideas and themes have been around for _decades_ , it's wild to realize sometimes
@@stevenf6940 It's less that time is a circle and more that ideologies tend to have a logical conclusion.
Wasn't gamer gate about a video game journalist ethics though ?
Speaking as an asexual male, yeah, I agree at around the 4:30 mark. I have no interest in sex at all, and I am constantly told by other people that I am either lying, or that this somehow makes me not a man.
He isn't really. It's a statement of fact. Perhaps your issues with "those people" is really the semiotics of the word "man." As you clearly are male. Perhaps in further dealings with people who say "you're not a man," try and pin a word in there like "traditional," or "normal." Which I think if you were honest with yourself you could agree with and doesn't mean "bad," or "disposable." Best wishes!
cheezemonkeyeater Well you are technically a "man" gender-wise since you (most likely) own a pair of balls. But men, normal healhy men have use for those and you don't. Maybe you should stop being offended and realise you might actually have a problem. I am brutally honest I know. Did you check your T level?
David Smithson There is a lot to make a man, as Kipling so beautifully described but sex drive is definitely part of being a man in normal definition. More than that. It's essential part of being a human. I would say a woman who has no desire in motherhood (ever) is not a healthy, normal woman.
He's probably right I am a scumbag.. a bit.
so the guy is being honest about himself and how he hates it how every one dismisses him because of one core part of who he is and the majority of the response is disregarding him in every way possible.
Although it seems completely alien, some people aren't attracted to either gender. are we to say they are at fault for this? no, they've done nothing wrong. while you may consider them a "glitch" or not very helpful to the continuation of the human race I'm sure i could find some aspect of you, or indeed anyone including myself, that is not the norm or completely useless to the human race as a whole. pointing out how some one is different doesn't help any one , in fact all you do is alienate that person from those around them.
sex is not the high and mighty distinguisher between people and non-people. its just a part of life, you can still have relationships with people just not sexual desires, so what. he isn't mentally ill, in him not giving a damm about sex it doesn't cause himself or those around him pain or anguish. people who are depressed are ill for it causing them mental strife, people who feel as though they were born the wrong gender could be considered unwell as no one should feel misplaced in there own body but being asexual? the only pain he gets from that is the alienation from society. how you aren't allowed to be considered a person and instead are given titles such as glitch or liar. is that the world you want to live in, where we remove someone's identity purely because of something that is not only out of their control but in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter.
judge people on who they are not what they are.
TLDR: you guys are scumbags.
Gremlech I agree the repliers aren't the most pleasant bunch but I can't say the notion isn't understandable. If I told you that I have a very particular fondness for the sound of people screaming in agony you'd probably think that's weird and unnatural and you most likely wouldn't exactly empathize with me, despite my inability to control it. Does that justify being a douche to someone? Certainly not, but one's first instinct would be to question it since that would imply a serious anomaly if it were true without exaggerating, and in many cases it isn't, in fact. Besides, it's really not something that would majorly affect your social life if you don't go around wearing it as a medal. I doesn't necessarily imply bragging about it, but mentioning it more than really necessary, and thus effectively making it part of who you are, not just what you are.
I just realized that this analysis of fight club is very compatible with various internet communities like 4chan etc. Very interesting indeed.
4chan, and /b/ in particular, is a massive disappointment for exactly this reason - it purports to be subversive and free-thinking, but is actually totally dominated by groupthink, fashion and norms. They compete to prove their status in the group whilst considering themselves rebellious and independent. You can rinse and repeat for pretty much every alternative movement, though - punk, emo, hipsters, anarchists. They all want the buzz of being different without the reality and responsibility of it.
wtf are you even talking about? "punk, emo, hipsters, anarchist" dude get you categories straight. the first is a working class music-subculture from britain having roots in blues and folk, the second is a music genre with some especially devout fans, the third a commercial scam and smearword and the fourth a political ideology which people fought and died for. have a little more respect for history please
@@mikethompson2745 ...
I guess I just found the "no, *_you're_* in a cult!" guy.
Did you just equate people who want others to not be dicks towards women/minorities with Project Mayhem?
@@mikethompson2745
Well, there we go. The latest, already extremely trite, alt-right argument. All a part of the same kind of master suppression techniques - this one being "heap blame on someone".
Jesus, that shit is predictable.
@@heavycritic9554 LMFAO
Fight Club is one of the few movies that has changed fundamentally over the years as I've grown old with it. When it first came out I was in my late teens and I enjoyed the Project Mayham stuff and some of the shallow consumerism bashing and the really slick production style.
A few years later in my 20's I kind of really identified with the ennui and the "middle children of history" thing and thought that I understood the (pointless) rebellion of just doing something *really* stupid and violent. Embracing a darker nhilistic nature that society both encourages *and* rejects at the same time.
I'm approaching 40 now and Fight Club seems to have settled in the last 5-10 years into an ink-black satire that takes a p*ss on... well... everything. Tyler is *not* the answer, the way that in the comic book version of V for Vendetta, V is *not* the answer or a hero. Explicitly, and frequently, Tyler is a f*cking train wreck and a path to misery when given full reign. Narrator is *not* happy or fulfilled in his life when Tyler is in charge. There's a difference between facing fear and even physical hardship and actively seeking out and embracing pointless nihilistic violence.
It's a fascinating movie. The book followed a similar arc but it's missing a lot of the subtlety that David Fincher put into the movie I think, and it's one of the few times where I think the movie surpasses the book. The main flaw I see in it personally is that it never has that moment that satire needs where it evaluates, and rejects as being absurd, any kind of real solution.
I had a similar relationship with the movie over time. And I dunno but I suspect if the movie had that aspect you wouldn't have had an evolving relationship with it. I think the ambiguity is necessary for it to have had the cultural standing that it has gained.
This is because it is a good film with cultural staying power. I, too, have had an evolving relationship with this film.
The anti-consumerism still reaonates.
I was lucky as a young guy to not fall for any of the toxic mess, except that goddamn did I want Brad Pitt's abs. But alas, I love food and do not get paid millions of dollars to _look like that_ so, you know. Thick, strong thighs for me it is.
I like the book a lot. The book was meant to be satirized male version of a women's self help style book and reading it in that context helps a lot. Each chapter is about a particular philosophy but unlike a womens self help book the thesis isn't written out in each chapter header but is instead buried in a very surreal plot. I think its a book that suits chucks style perfectly because its aim isn't to resolve anything, its all writing prompts or food for thought. The problem with chucks other writing is he comes up with a great writing prompt but never knows how to tie up any of the ideas in a satisfying way. Fight club on the other hand is just really deeply satirical philosophy for life type of chapters and it reads in an interesting way. My favorite part of the book that was changed for the worst in the movie was the car crash scene. In the movie the car crash is done by Tyler in a way to make the narrator give up on his will to live. But in the book the driver is literally just a random mindless drone of Tyler's who us so throughly absorbed into Tyler's entire worldview he is essentially no different from Tyler. He speaks in weird soliloquy and says really open ended things like "If you're male and you're Christian and living in America, your father is your model for God. And if you never know your father, if your father bails out or dies or is never at home, what do you believe about God?" And just shut like that that makes you wonder if he's going to go postal.
Thank you for this. I'm sorry about the abuse you receive, it really does speak to how dark things are/can be. Also, as someone who was assaulted at university and who found the response of others to be incredibly traumatic, hearing you highlight the "what did you expect" response really affected me. Thank you for recognising that expecting little to nothing of men is wrong and hurts us all. Thank you.
Well said.
What really bugs me are all of those "There is no love like a mother's love" and "The mother is the most important person in regards to your happiness". Like, yes, there are plenty of men who abandon their kids or are shallow, but to make it out like fatherhood is just a trivial element in a person's upbringing is so infuriatingly dismissive that it makes me want to break something.
It’s not that we expect little to nothing of men. It’s that we expect little to nothing of men with regards to empathy, while also expecting rigid compliance and savage competitiveness of men. Society’s expectations of men are horrifically paradoxical.
The last few seconds made me happy. Why not be a man of both compassion and strength!
+Snow Mystique Because then the meninists get ya! :D
Snow Mystique because compassion can be an obstacle to one's strength (it's not always)
I would offer that compassion is itself a strength. It can be easy to be callous and self centered. Compassion often means some form of sacrifice, often of time, or of emotional investment, sometimes more. Compassion and Strength are not antonymous.
@@Luinta Absolutely agreed. If compassion is an obstacle in your path, what you're working towards isn't actually strength.
this video really clarified a lot of my own hangups for me. I hadn't realized that this may help explain why it's only easy to open up to nurturing women, and why there's such pressure on even casual sexual encounters to perform. the first few minutes of your video represent the beginning and end of most conversations about toxic masculinity, but exploring "Jack's" perspective in this analysis allowed you to touch on points I've never even thought of, like how it feels strange to look for female friends without even briefly considering being fwb.
thank you for posting this on CZcams.
87392v I hear you. The hardest part is knowing where you need to get (eg. getting past the trappings), but not knowing how. How's it working for you?
I'll be your gal pal, mate. 🌷
Here here, dude. This issue even extends to tomboys, my dad wanted a son but got me. From 6th grade onward we had no cable, but Fight Club was one of the five VHS' we had, so guess what I was unintentionally brainwashed with. We both genuinely enjoyed it, of course, but the lack of variety became an issue that wasn't apparent at the time. I wanted so much to be a character and join, but had to be content with being a cheerleader on the sidelines in my fantasy in just the same way as I was passively watching from the other side of the TV. Years before we got that movie I resented the girl scouts for being phony dressed up excuses to sell cookies, and learned to be in the boy scouts where they taught bushcraft and other practical skills while I begrudgingly made paper mache faces with googly eyes.
Dad took me to shooting ranges when I was very much underaged (actively instructed me to lie about my age if asked), dragging me kicking and screaming (often in actuality, not just figuratively) into his own very manly hobbies which I did not have an interest in. Even as an adult he relentlessly harassed me to get a conceal and carry until I caved and abided just to shut him up. He encouraged me to pursue my own interests, sure, but he never joined me in mine, whereas I was obligated to join him in his as his little sidekick buddy.
I'll never forget, he had these nerf footballs shaped like missiles with whistles in the side, and no matter how many times I froze and curled up when I heard them dropping like bombs, he kept encouraging me to try again. Sure, it was intended as exercise and to build motor skills, but his frustrations were clear: he wanted me to be able to take a hit to the face without flinching, to "man up" as it were. I would make it clear I didn't want to, but we would end up doing those exercises regardless, and every time it would end with me crying and him frustrated or yelling. Whenever I was bullied, he'd encourage me to stand my ground, taught me how to fight back, which is a good thing for everyone to be capable of, but we never looked deeper to solve the issues which were the source of the bullying to begin with. It was all reactionary, a bandaid on the surface. He wanted a boy, and as a tomboy I wasn't enough.
Naturally, my only true friends were boys, and things changed in middle school when everyone hit puberty. I didn't feel like a lesbian, didn't have interests in women, but felt like I had to front as one since the guys would nolonger see me as a comrade but rather a walking orifice they yearned to fuck. I didn't understand why things had to change, why we couldn't continue being bros without the sexual tension. I even wished I had been a boy and occasionally contemplated surgery, but knew it wasn't going to help, because I didn't feel like a boy mentally, I simply wanted to hang out with my friends without being hit on.
I don't know where I belong. My only friend is my husband. Why can't we tell boys it's ok to be friends with girls, for dads to play along with their daughters for dress up and tea time, and just let a person's interests be their interests without having to label them tomboys and fags.
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Cari Garafalo holy shit that was the most intense comment I have ever read on CZcams
Dudebros modeling themselves after what they never realized was the antagonist in what they never realized was an inherently feminist story.
Roughly 8 years ago I commented on this video about how you didn't understand anything about masculinity, and I think one of the lines I used was "people didn't ever think about things like this at the time." I remember getting a reply from the creator of the video, and it was so long and well thought out that it scared my at the time 13 year old self. I didn't read it, but it definitely planted a seed in my mind, starting to allow me to break through and come to reason. I'm now a 21 year old trans woman, the 13 year old boy who posted that is long gone but I still honestly kept feeling a little intimidated by Folding Ideas. I always felt really embarrassed that I used to be like that, but I've finally come around and now I am watching this peak shit.
Bro this is a great discussion, subbed for taking on a difficult topic thoughtfully.
Dude- modern masculinity is a hard topic and you somehow got at it. I’m impressed how your Dissertation like Analysis of a movie I personally have taken away the wrong thing from
*In the name of full disclosure,* I am a fifty-something-year-old meaning I'm either Gen-X or nonexistent, depending on who we ask, and I am on the autism spectrum which might or might not inform my disinvestment in masculinity and my unusual opinions about it. That said:
I grew up not just in the cold war, but among people who discussed theories and policy around nuclear war. When Reagan introduced the notion of the Strategic Defense Initiative (aka. _star wars_ in lower case), I was hanging around the guys from JPL and CalTech who were thinking about how we would intercept enemy missiles, and make that more cost efficient than building nuclear weapons, or than maintaining our huge nuclear stockpile.
Curiously, this informed my idea of masculinity into what I call _Tom Clancy Masculinity_ the notion that far more important than the power a man holds is his capability to mete it out with precision according to circumstances that warrant it. The logic naturally follows from MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) that in a Mexican standoff everyone acts cautiously and deliberately, though there is also an air of nobility to making a gesture of peace that, if unreciprocated leaves him at a disadvantage. But usually IRL most people don't want to gun their rivals down, so de-escalation is welcome.
A good example of this kind of masculinity is seen in the Grenzschutzgruppe 9 (GSG 9), to quote Wikipedia _From 1972 to 2003, they reportedly completed over 1,500 missions, discharging their weapons on only five occasions._ an example I would hope could be used to inform how we reform law enforcement throughout the United States to reintroduce a general policy of de-escalation and non-violent resolution.
Curiously, there's a point in Fight Club where Jack and Tyler are on a bus (the _is that what a man looks like?_ scene) , and a guy shoves Jack on his way to the back of the bus, and Jack doesn't even respond, which can be interpreted as intersecting with this kind of deliberateness and measure. Here we go: czcams.com/video/Qo4MDlKa05E/video.html
*Edit:* Formatting. Added link.
Thread necromancy but the very next scene is that dude at fight club and Durden is beating the snot out of him.
You're actually kinda saying something that Jordan Peterson, of all people, says a lot. A good man is not a weak man. A weak man *can't* be a good man, because in order to do good, one must be strong. A good man is a strong man who is in complete control of his strength. A weak man is an absolute pacifist. A strong man will place his own body between what he loves and evil.
@@IncredibleMD The danger in that thinking is our society's failure to recognize all forms of strength. Just as countless services are accomplished without any direct transaction in what is primarily a capitalist economy, and genius is often missed by placement tests and aptitude tests (either because certain aptitudes aren't screened for, or because some people just suck at tests). Presently, we drive over half our population into menial labor, expendable soldiers or the incarceration system when a truly good society would give all people a chance to find and develop their own strengths, even if it means letting a lot of people slack without punishment or even scorn.
We've actually seen how this can manifest during the COVID lockdown in which such a large chunk of the furloughed workforce was able to take a hobby or home project and turn it into a lucrative business, that we experienced the great resignation, and employers used to underpaying and overworking employees had to scramble to find enough people to open business.
A society that competes with itself and culls the weak is not a society. That _is_ how ecosystems work, but nature is cruel and brutal, and not being cruel and brutal is our superpower. As we've seen with prior empires and civilizations, the ones who can unite the greatest numbers are the ones that thrive and inherit all the innovation from those numbers. And they're the ones that dominate the rest of the world, whether by good product on the global market or via large well-supplied armies with high technology equipment.
I am kinda proud that ou mention the GSG 9. They were formed after the horrible hostage takings at the Munich Olympics.
And they are not totally without fault.
But yes, I guess, they are what the SWAT teams should be.
On the other side, police in Germany has a longer training (I think at least 3 years) and you need to fulfill certain thresholds. And after studying crown control and defusing aggressive situations, you need to be excellent to join the GSG9 Training.
and they are called rarely.
so this is my new favorite youtube channel. Your video about Suicide Squad and editing showed up on my front page today and that was awesome, and this video is just fantastic. You really kick ass. in an intellectual sense.
Same here just watched Suicide Squad video and subscribed
Same. Hey, maybe we should start some sort of secret club.
+Em Wilson can I join? \o/
Don't talk about it though....
Same. Great channel
This is probably the best critical essay about fight club I've ever seen, and the best explanation of toxic masculinity and how a man can be a feminist and advocate for their own rights.
Justin Hurst feminism is for both men and women 💕. We're all suffering under this current situation. It's about humanization. Not feminization of everything.
Yeah the whole feminism is putting men down by putting women up is probably why most people wouldn't consider themselves feminist. And yet its actually the very ideal that feminism tried to contest, one is not better, they are equal. I find people looking at feminism from a patriarchal view and seeing it as trying to take over and steal because that's what the world is all about from that ideology. I guess it's cognitive dissonance, really.
I always thought Adam Baldwin was acting, but I've come to realize that he actually IS the character he plays in the show Firefly.
The problem is, I like Jayne Cobb way more than I like Adam Baldwin.
Ummm... Everything you're saying is wrong. I'm now going to misinterpret your point and bring up situations that clearly don't disprove your argument and say they disprove your argument. Then, I will talk about the other side of this issue as though the two are equally bad. I will now proceed to dogwhistle the everloving shit out of this, restating every belief associated with various hate groups without using their terminology. Someone who responds will call me out and point out that the beliefs I am stating like fact originated from hate groups, but I will then call them deluded and say that they are in fact the real hate group. Probably while dogwhistling some more.
Wow, you just summarized all reactionary / alt-right "debaters" on the Internet.
I wish they would read your comment and just log off forever, but sadly it's not to be. :\
Thank you for writing this, seriously.
I will miss the point in your satirical post and begin arguing with you.
nfinn42 ... that's a great knock down. If they disagree with you just call em alt-right. Who'd have thought.
This video's analysis of the movie is so so far off the mark if he didn't ever mention the title you'd swear he was talking about a totally different movie.
Fight Club is the ultimate SJW movie. Practically every fight club member is an sjw fighting to bring down 'the man'.
Such a detailed opinion. /s
If you don't understand how a movie about men who feel their masculinity threatened start a club where they act out their own primal instincts to the point that the founder of the club develops a split personality is actually about the concept of 'toxic masulinity', then you are truly blind.
But ok, it's about those darn "sjws" (whatever the fuck that term even means anymore) because you said so.
Man, I really need to watch this movie again, especially considering that I wasn't a feminist the last time. This was amazing.
13:55 Geek culture and a change of paint.... nailed it.
except he didn't lol the whole both babe thing actually did pissed off a lot of the original fans. it did however create a new fan base which kind of took over the old fan base. remember when the media was talking about how "geeks" were a bunch of crying babies virgins because they hated both booth babes & gamer girls (not be confused with girl gamers). real geeks or nerds really didn't give two shits about how women looked at them (or for that matter any one), they just wanted to do what ever it was that made them happy. at the time society considered them weird and thus nerd, geek, spaz & etc were born. the name calling i kind of agree with but even that was mostly done to mess up the other player so they could get a cheap win out of if. im sorry to say but he has a very biased on feminist views.
"real geeks or nerds"
And who made *you* the arbiter of who that is, exactly?
"real geeks or nerds" Did you even see the video? 1) that's a fallacy called "the no real scotsman fallacy". 2) This very same video you're commenting on deals with the iisue that there is no "real man", no real geek, no real nerd, those are just social concepts people make up so they feel they fit in. In that sense it goes beyond gender, you use terms as "real geek" because as a human you feel the need to label groups of people so you get a better feeling of who you are and who you are not, and where you belong to.
So what is the argument being made? Booth babes are good or bad? Because no matter what I think, someone - usually not even a gamer - will call me a misogynist. If I say I like booth babes then I'm a misogynist who objectifies women, and if I say I don't like booth babes then I'm a misogynist who doesn't want women in my boy's club. So tell me, enlightened ones; what's the proper way to think?
+TetrisClock The key is what do you mean by booth babe. If it is just an ordinary looking woman wearing ordinary clothes staffing booths then they are "good" and accusing them without evidence of being "fakes" is based on the underlying assumption that women do not play games which is a sexist prejudice which has been proven wrong many times over (go look up the market stats yourself depending on genre 3-60% of players are female). However, if we are talking about sexy-models wearing sexy-clothes who don't do anything but look sexy and act suggestively to entice guys over to the booth, then they are "bad" because they are being objectified and exploiting the toxic-masculine stereotype of guys being supposed to want to have sex with any woman wearing revealing clothes for profit.
It saddens me that I'm unable to fully follow the explaination due to the fact that english is not my main language
but I liked what I was able to understand heh... thanks for this
such a sweet comment! if there is any specific part you struggled with, let me know the time stamp. i can rewatch it and break it down for you
@@oof-wi7hp First of all, thank you, appreciate the offer... It's a bit tricky pointing at a specific time stamp, i belive that if I'll listen to it a few more times I'll finally be able to digest the whole thing :)
@@AbraHaze84 that's great! all the best
It gets easier.
As someone who has also learned multiple languages, I applaud you. I couldn't imagine how difficult this video would be for me if it were in German or Urdu.
As someone who had rage related blackouts as a teen, Fight Club was always a horror movie I couldn't stop watching. I knew what Tyler was the second I saw him, but I incorporated his ideas into me because he was cool and I was convinced I needed to EMBRACE this shit or I would never get my violent outbursts under control.
But the most important scene is the end. Tyler needed to die for 'Jack' to live. We all get angry, but we can't get addicted to our own rage. We can't call it a drug and treat it like occasional indulgence is okay. It needs management, it needs to be worked through, discussed, understood-- it can't be treated like cocaine.
this is a great analysis! it's been really interesting to see the differences in people's viewing of this film based on gender and the way we are socialized. i've heard a lot of guys talk about idolizing tyler/getting the wrong message out of the film when they were young because they felt like tyler was cool and badass. but for me, when i watched this film as a young girl, i always thought that tyler was terrifying. i loved the movie, but i remember spending the whole run time wanting jack to ditch tyler because he was so violent and cruel. the chemical scene will literally stick out in my mind forever as one of the most horrifying movies scenes i ever watched as a kid
The most horrifying to me was Jack beating that man's face into a pulp because he 'wanted to destroy something beautiful'. How that level of senseless cruelty could be idolized by anyone is beyond me.
I watched this movie in high school with some male friends and I'm only now considering that the movie meant something different to them than it did to me. I wasn't critical enough to digest it as being a movie that was specifically for men and about masculinity (which seems extremely obvious now), I only digested the hyperviolence and criticism of consumer culture, because those were the things I liked and could relate to.
I have always loved violence and gore so those aspects of the movie actually appealed to me, but I think in a different way than they appeal to men. For a woman, loving violence and gore is inherently subversive, because part of femininity is being expected to faint at the sight of blood, being expected to be passive and dislike violence, etc. Now I'm wondering if I actually like those things, or if I just enjoy the feeling of rejecting the feminine ideal I've been pressured to conform to.
@@julesmallow honestly I don't think femininity is about fainting at the sight of blood since you know, we all bleed once a month...
@Ryu -- it traditionally was, though; women were fragile little flowers with delicate sensibilities, prone to hysteria and fainting at the sight of blood. Or so society said. Just check out any number of classic fairytales, or heck, even many old classics romcoms. Women are 'sensitive' doncha know? That's why you can't send them to war. All that blood.
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Sure, it's contradictory when one remembers about that pesky monthly bleeding problem. But then again, we don't talk about unladylike, unclean subjects like that, now do we? Or self-pollution. Or intercourse. Or where babies come from. Or...
.
To be clear, my sarcasm isn't aimed at you, but at society's ridiculousness. : )
@@ryu9123 that's actually really fascinating me. My mom said, she didn't want to ecome a doctor because of blood. But her period was... let's say, she had a dwnright scary flow. And she was totally nonchalant and practical about that. No fainting on the toilet or in the bed.
and still, it is funny.
This is honestly my new favorite channel. I've written academic essays about Fight Club and other subjects that you also have other video essays on, but watching this video made me want to go back to that research and wrestle my thesis a little. You hit points that I had never considered while also contextualizing this discussion with issues that surround us today. Great job.
Fight Club - the movie nor David Fincher actually advocate Fight Club the concept. The movie is a critique not only of society that produces such reaction from men, but a critique of the reaction itself. The fact that most cult followers of this movie don't see through this is staggering, but that doesn't mean it's a bad movie, as every single video essay seems to imply. Indeed it is a paramount movie at predicting social issues, the fact that the manosphere practically adopted it as its origin myth leads me to conclude it is one of the most societaly important movies of the 90's, if not the most important. And this importance is, as always, also due to its fantastic cinematography. In other words - obviously one of the great movies.
I came expecting a good video on Fight Club and left having watched one of the best videos I've seen on toxic masculinity, which, if you ask someone under its spell, does not exist.
The sad part is that every person(man or woman) that I know loves the book and film loves it because they idolise Tyler and everything he stands for. But it might be just the national mindset of the country I live in.
Well, thats what happens when your massage is subtle
+Ida Gramatikova All of my friends who have seen the film or read the book love it. I saw it once and I enjoyed it's ironic sense of humor but after it was over I knew I never wanted to watch it again because it made me feel a little sick.
+Ida Gramatikova
I don't know anything about the book, what's your point? Explain it like you're talking to a child.
The point is not to be like him, but then again, he's pretty cool.
it's like saying Romeo and Juliet is a love story. They completely miss the point, that Tyler is essentially the villain of fight club, and only take what they see at face value.
Excellent analysis not only of the values championed via the movie, but also a thorough description of toxic masculinity; which, by glancing at the comment section, is needed now more than ever. Thank you .
YES! comment sections on any feminist/progressive video seem to always prove their point for them.
One of the best ways to live your life is to realise that you don’t have to be either gender. Just take whatever parts of masculinity and femininity you like and mash them together. You can like violent video games and cry when animals get hurt. You can enjoy knitting and wrestling. You can be empathetic and stoic at once.
Power, toughness, aggressiveness and stoic ness are requirements for masculinity. But masculinity is not required to be a man. All that requires is to identify as a male and be of at least 18 years of age, or whatever it is in your country. Being a man doesn’t grant you any priveliges or requirements beyond those of being an adult.
gender abolitionist comrade
Extremely fitting pfp lmao
To clarify, being a Stoic is being empathethic. What you said about Stoicism is the so called "lowercase s stoicism", which is part of toxic masculinity because it takes only parts of the whole philosophy and distorts them. For example, Stoicism is more about understanding your emotions, while stoicism is about suppressing emotions.
I want to personally thank you for the interesting perspective, I usually lean the other way in my views, but this is a particularly well thought out video that allowed me to see the other side of the issue. Not only that, it showed me well researched insight into one of my favorite movies that I would have never realized on my own. Seriously, great job on this particular topic from someone you might be at odds with.
Hey, hi, I might be late for this train but...I always seen at least small elements of the narrative as little nods about the creator's real life. The writer, Chuck Palahniuk is homosexual and this should cast some light over questions such as "Why is Marla the only speaking female character?". Thinking about that, one could create a very intersting meta narrative about a man confronting his "alternative" sexuality, wanting so bad to be "straight" even lying to himself about his desires (a very common pain through homosexual people, victims of what society thinks about their nature). Tyler IS in fact everything the narrator wants to be and he's masculine as all hell, he even has that sexual relationship with Marla that the Narrator seems incapable to have. Just a thought.
*****
Eh...I seriously doubt it. Yeah, Tyler and the narrator share some pretty intimate moments, obviously the whole repressed sexuality coming to play, but remember that in the end is the narrator the one trying at all cost to kill Tyler, realizing that he's nothing more than a toxic stereotype of what he wanted to be, pure desire, unmitigated by reason.
*****
Mh. Dunno. It's seems a really platonic gesture to me, like he had problems with her before because of his perception of sexuality and the pressure of "what a man should do with a woman" thing and now he sees her as a person and not strictly a woman. A person that he grew to understand. Consider the fact that during the whole movie he seems irritated by the mere presence of Marla without any particular reason outside of "she blows my cover" . He is a liar, a closeted homosexual who's trying to fit in but in the presence of the ultimate test, a woman, he can't act according to his charade.
It's a fun theory, but I don't think it's likely. If you've read the majority of Palahniuk's books, screwed up hetero relationships are the norm and a lot of his male protagonists have issues with women. It's just a common character trait he writes, not that I think it says anything intensely profound about the writer himself. Marla/Jack's dynamic is far from unusual when compared to the dysfunctional hetero couples in many of his other books (Diary, Survivor, and Snuff are all good examples).
I've never seen the film, but isn't it just as likely that the film is about toxic masculinity and the problems thereof, and that having more female characters could potentially dilute the message (from the point of view that having more female characters would require more very careful and thought-out interactions so as not to undercut the primary focus of the film, and that perhaps this was deemed too risky a line to walk creatively)?
Fight Club was always one of my favorite movies, which I *thought* was really weird because I have a brother and very sensitive and sweet male friends and I'm totally against toxic masculinity for their sake in a very passionate way, but your analysis was like...YES that's exactly why I like this movie! OMG I hadn't even thought about that! Your explanation of toxic vs. healthy masculinity is the most eloquent one I've heard. I will definitely be recommending this video.
his points are influenced by postmodernism which is a reprehensible ideology
One of _the_ best video essays I've watched in a while. Thank you
I watched this a few years back and now I'm watching it again because it's just really well done.
This video has kicked my ass. I really liked fight club when I first saw it, but I didn't know why until now. And I'm not being gullible, I think you really have captured all the reasons it resonated with me and deconstructed them. I haven't felt this small and alone in a long time. I don't know what I want as a human being anymore. Fuck.
The only issue is that these aren't things I've been taught to want. I genuinely have built a big part of my life around chasing these things which the video exposes as trite, predictable, and indefensible. The video notes that Robert Paulson is the commendable character, but he's always been my nightmare, and the video is kind of right. Admitting I'm a failure is a big pill to swallow.
oh jeez, pls don't go into full red pill XD
I don't think that's correct. I mean, you have the ability to question yourself and not take this as a personal attack. that's better than most of the internet. I commend you for that and you should be proud. I think this video needs a caveat. It's ok to like manly shit, what's not ok is to feel like you have to like manly shit because you are a man, or not liking them makes you less of a man (whatever that's supposed to mean)
TopHatPangolin no mather how many times that last part is said, still people take offense to it, god fucking dammit. Also, I love that the official term is "manly shit".
I wouldnt pay too much heed to a guy that thinks testicles are just a social construct
I wish everyone saw fight club in this way.
seriosuly great analysis
nothing sadder than people who saw fight club without a hint of self-awareness or irony.
The comic book sequel (which the author wrote but didn't draw) is all about how the characters became became something outside the author, how you lose control of your story once you give it to the audience. It was kind of poorly executed, but really interesting, at least.
The problem is the term toxic masculinity. There is nothing wrong with masculinity, but there is something wrong with toxic people in general. he is combining two things that should not be combined and as a result it becomes sexism. If a woman tells gossip about another person, it doesn't give you the right to call it something like toxic femininity (if that's even a word). Combining a negative act to a persons gender is just wrong. I could come up with all kinds of arguments why women generally tell more gossips than men, but it's still just sexism if you give it a gender based label like that.
Besides it's just a movie and not a guideline for men on how to behave in the world. Bad people appear in movies and bad stuff happens, but guess what it's not real. It's a great movie and that's it really.
daan I think you're making a basic mistake in your logic and it's that "masculinity" refers to someone's gender. It doesn't. It's a term that refers to a social construct. It's the social construct that is toxic, i.e. the ideas we associate with being "a real man" (which is a social construct in itself). So it's not sexist to say toxic masculinity, because (as this video explains) it doesn't mean that being a man is toxic, but rather that certain characteristics culturally associated with manliness are.
The idea that behaving like a man is somehow a social construct is absurd. masculinity is something that drives our evolution, so it made us and not the other way around. Let's take for example one of the masculine characteristics, aggression. Pretty much in every animal species the males are way more aggressive, is that a social construct? In case you don't know what the terms "social construct" and "masculinity" mean, here are the definitions:
social construct: "an idea that has been created and accepted by the people in a society"
Masculinity does refer to gender, let me give you the exact definition: "possession of the qualities traditionally associated with men."
So do you still think we (as a society) just made up masculine traits?? And if so than how on earth does that work?
Anyone else notice how good the puppeteering is in this?
You know, I rarely ever consider the amount of stress it must take to be a creator with any kind of notoriety. Human nature will find or manufacture flaws and deliver them back to the creator 100x amplified, regardless of the basis of the criticism. I can't imagine how much mental turmoil that creates, but the last 3-5 minutes of this video really put it into a perspective I could step into as I've faced, as I'm sure almost every other person, almost each insult that was listed. Your videos are fine works that will stand the test of time, and I truly appreciate everything you do on and for this platform and Humanity as a whole.
Thank you! This was amazing. I have been in the same position of being derided because I'm not manly enough my whole life. And I have always tried to not bend to social pressure. It's nice to have a voice like yours putting the phenomenon in the appropriate context.
this is one of my favorite CZcams videos ever. and as someone with an average 6 hour daily screen time on youtube, that's a pretty big deal. I feel like this video is not just incredibly well done, but genuinely important. it's so refreshing to hear a man speak so eloquently on toxic masculinity, and I think a lot of teen boys should see this. and the part that gets me, 22:13, "a world where being a man encompasses both of this (be a man in mulan) and this (crying in each other's arms)". fucking perfect. it always gets me.
This was one of the best movie/story breakdowns that I've ever listened to on CZcams. Thank you so much for taking the time to breakdown, research, and go in depth on this topic.
This is the best Fight Club analysis I've ever seen. Just extremely thorough
You moved your hand like that for 22 minutes, dawg. That's determination right there
This is literally the most well thought out and persuasive explanation of what toxic masculinity is and how it impacts society. I say this as a man who has only been met with some seriously vacuous definitions from humanoid broken records.
I appreciate this perspective and I will share this as the standard.
I don't even have the words to express how much I appreciate and agree with all of this.
I love your videos SO, so much. I can't believe it's taken me so long to find them. They're brilliant and you're awesome. I''ve been spamming my friends with links.
Ok so this is got to be one of my all time favourite video essays on toxic masculinity
Great essay, but very glad we moved past the video essay mascot puppet thing lol
I felt so much better after watching this video. It echoes so many of things I've been thinking about. Thank you
This was a phenomenal analysis. So much of life and culture is wound up in toxic masculinity and it's so great to see people like you critically analyze this phenomenon and see everything from a respective distance in order to gage an understanding of toxic masculinity and bring that understanding and validation of that understanding to others. I love to see things like this that show it's acceptable to be 'incomplete' or 'lacking' when really the definition of this whole and ideal self is merely inflexible to nuance and genuineness. I think a formality of this has really been missing for me recently and your video has helped me form an idea and understanding of accepting myself as an "un-ideal man", who feels and understands and is able to cry and love and accept and nourish himself and others. Thank you for this. This is important to me, and i greatly appreciate you for making this and sharing it with the world
I remember so many of my friends, well maybe not so much friends as classmates.. who saw that movie and in stead of seeing any deeper message in the movie, just thought: "Fighting is cool! Let's start with Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) fighting." And I was just thinking quietly to myself: "I really don't think that was the message..."
I actually start to wonder if Fight Club is responsible for boosting MMA fighting into mainstream popularity.
hope she sees this bro
Not.
@@davidv4018 what?
@@mon0752 lol
One of the most compelling film essays I've seen recently, I'm so glad I found this channel.
Love this video.Very well thought out.
I would say that I always thought Marla was another personality of the narrator, and so, therefore a lot of her feminism is filtered through this skewed sense of masculinity.
You touched on some of the ideas I think about all the time in regards to this subject. Very well done.
This is... amazing. No other words... just... wow. Putting together words is part of my living, and I will never be able to match this. You've given me a new vocabulary to talk about these issues. Thank you.
Just wanted to say, this is the most thorough and well-done analysis of Fight Club on youtube right now! thanks for this!
christ i love this analysis. i'm recommending it to all my friends who like media analyses. and all my friends who like socio-political analyses. ugh. thanks for this.
it has long astonished me how many guys are unable to see the negative aspects of sexism, of being constrained to an outdated ideal of masculinity
@Manophere. com And if they did come from women, would that make it less sexist? Would that make the ideal of toxic masculinity less ingrained inn culture?
The only one prescribing these ideas to a certain gender is you.
Also worth noting that child support is actually a two way street. Both men and women can claim child support from a parent that does't take care of the child.
If you take a few moments to scope this guy’s channel it’s pretty clear he’s writing most of this in between juice boxes at a day program.
@@varadhk3159 In most circumstances I would agree with you, but in this case we are talking about concepts ingrained in culture that while applicable primarily to men, its propagation is due to society as a whole.
@@varadhk3159 What? Of course it does. You don't have to respond, you know. If you feel like you don't have to or don't want to respond to something, you can just.... not respond. Don't go making up bs to get out of it.
Thank you for being this voice on the internet. I can't tell you how much I appreciate what you're doing: the topics you have the balls (and isn't that an ironic turn of phrase) to tackle head-on and take an actual stance on, backed up with research and critical thinking. Thanks for keeping at it.
I...seriously, thank you. You basically put every feeling i have towards movies in to words in a way I couldn't. Teach me your ways, senpai!
Also, pls don't stop making these.
I think this is the best deconstruction of Fight Club I've seen to date. I tend to steer clear of men who claim that Fight Club is their favorite movie, not because I think Fight Club is a bad movie or because I don't like it, but because often they seem to like it so much for exactly the wrong reasons. They fail to understand that it's not really about men finding a space where they can 'be men' but almost the exact opposite.
Anyways, I meander. This was an excellent analysis on the concept of toxic masculinity. You raise some very good points. Next time someone tells me Fight Club is their favorite movie I'll send them this video.
Love this, such a great take on the film. I think a lot of us were aware of these themes, but couldn't put it so precisely as you. I'm gonna share this but I'm afraid most people won't slow down there lives to view it, but there is always hope.
I first saw this film 12 years ago, and it's been with me ever since. It was the beginning of my discussion with myself about manhood, masculinity and what kind of human I want to be.
You just added a new perspective, so thank you.
Hey, i´ve been watching your videos non stop for the last couple of days, and i need to say... THANKS!
I love how you tackle with the problems that not only affect nerds/gamers/freaks, but that also plague or society constantly.
I´ll recommend this channel to everyone from now on, good work!
Does anybody else see "gorillas standing on other gorillas' huge shoulders" in the pattern of the red wallpaper?
I'm non-binary and was absolutely obsessed with this movie in college. I watched it over and over and more than once cried at the end. It hit so many buttons related to everything I was internally wrestling with at the time.
Nonbinary goofy ass 🤣🤣
I hope you've since stopped believing in the horrible idea that being a non-conforming man makes you something other than a man.
Thanks for making a video that's both approachable, and not shrill explaining and exploring toxic masculinity. This was kind of my gateway, pointing out there's a problem inside me, and helping me come to more peace.
Thanks so much.
Thanks for the great video! Fight Club is one of my favorite films and I love hearing interpretations of it. Your analysis was enlightening and thorough and I'm looking forward to watching your video again, thanks!
Loved the video! I've always loved fight club (which led me to read the book and I loved that one as well) and you made a fantastic analysis ❤
Umm... Toxic masculinity isn't a real thing. Nobody rewards a boy for getting into a fight at school, or a man for beating his wife. Nobody praises guys for being overly sexually aggressive. A woman accuses a man of rape and his life is ruined, even if the claim is absolutely ridiculous and not at all true. And before you attack me and call me a dudebro or something, I'm a girl.
men may not be necessarily "rewarded" for hyper sexuality or violence, but it's the idea that men crying is seen as "gay". its the idea that any traditional feminine qualities on a man are seen as shameful. I have seen multiple men in my time made fun of for not fitting our idea of a male stereotype. toxic masculinity, the idea that men need to be a certain way (men can't cry, wear certain colors, men are the head of the household, men have to pay, men can't touch each other) all stem from the idea that being masculine and being strong are synonyms and in order to be manly, that means they have to be strong. So instead of crying when they're upset, they get angry and feel the need to get into a fight. Or maybe holding in these emotions that portray them as weaker is what has lead to the high suicide rates of men. And yes falsely accusing men of rape is a completely awful and disgusting thing, only about 2-8% of rape accusations are false, and about 97% of rapists never actually get sent to jail. Looking at those statistics mean that it may be a more pressing issue to send rapists to jail. but toxic masculinity does exist. Its quite literally killing men. teaching boys that they have to be strong or else their not a man is an ideal society should begin shying away from. did't want an argument but hey, just maybe some food for thought.
There's a popular shirt out there, you may have seen variants of it. It's the "Rules for dating my daughter." One popular version says on the front "guns don't kill people, dads with pretty daughters kill people."
While the commission of violence is rarely truly rewarded, the posturing of the willingness to do violence is rewarded. It's seen as a virtue, a positive value. We make shirts joking about it, and rather than being some horrifying edgelord crap it's shared on facebook and pintrest with a tee hee, "so true!"
Also Donald Trump has multiple legitimate and horrifying rape accusations outstanding against him, and he's going to be President, so clearly it doesn't actually ruin lives quite as efficiently as you're making it sound.
"There's a popular shirt out there, you may have seen variants of it. It's the "Rules for dating my daughter." One popular version says on the front "guns don't kill people, dads with pretty daughters kill people.""
It's a joke based on the idea that fathers are very protective or their daughters. Over the top? Yes, but that's kind of the point.
"the posturing of the willingness to do violence is rewarded. It's seen as a virtue, a positive value."
That's because it can be a positive value, especially when looking for a partner. Women want and need a protector, whether they acknowledge it consciously or not. Now sure, the "protector" role has become somewhat meaningless in this civilized world of ours, but I still don't see how being able to use violence as a means to protect yourself and your loved ones can be considered bad or "toxic."
+Chris Ferguson That's nice that the points go right over your head.
I once accidently ruined someone's birthday because he came over to my friend's house, insulted the "cleanliness", and legitimized a pretty gross rape-endorsing joke.
My point is, some people just don't get it. You're one of those people.
Folding Ideas The "rules for dating my daughter" shirt is a joke. People are allowed to have different senses of humor. The Donald Trump allegations, despite the fact that Donald Trump is a horrible person and has actually committed crimes, are ridiculous. Besides that, Donald Trump is rich and can defend himself. There are many people who can't and have their lives ruined.
This was enlightening. It's been a long time since I saw that movie; I've learned a lot since then. Memories have been dredged back up, and I am glad to find my feelings then largely agree with my present and now more complete understanding.
Also, now the ending makes a good deal more sense (emotionally).
Your analysis is nothing short of incredible, and on top that, your writing is a joy to listen to. I just subscribed, and I look forward to seeing what else is in your video library. You deserve more subs.
This is probably my favorite of your videos, Dan. I loved rewatching it.
I have a friend who still to this day, worships this movie for all of the wrong reasons. Wants a “Tyler Durden jacket” and everything.
Usually I save the binge watching for tv series like breaking bad, but I've been watching all your videos for the past few days. So much good stuff!!!
This is something I've been trying to articulate for YEARS. You have a very intrigued subscriber now, good sir.
Fucking brilliant.
Phenomenal analysis. I've written my own essay about Fight Club, but it was specifically focused on the themes of internalized and societal homophobia that so many people involved with Fight Club are so quick to deny, and something I wish people would address more because it's not very subtle at all (to me, at least). This is only making me want to go turn that into a video essay.
DO EEEEET! :D
And then link it here.
+Hayden I think the film is very homoerotic, and the author of the book it's based on later came out as gay, as I recall. Are you saying you experience the film as homophobic? Just curious.
That's weird, cause one of the things I drew from it long-term was a sort of neutral, unfazed attitude towards homosexuality, in a "women and sexual conquest do not make you better" sort of way. An assuredness in one's own sexuality, and a recognition of mega-heterosexuality as being without inherent value (and homosexuality, by proxy, being no worse), allowing one to write advances or accusations off as meaningless.
I don't know why I associate this train of thought with Fight Club. Maybe it's a by-product of the "women and woman-associated elements are without value (as nothing has value, aside from being free of control and influence of others)" attitude, or of the desire to remain unaffected, cool, and infallible in the face of challenge (no influence, challenge has no meaning or value). I don't know. As a perceived loser in my formative years, Fight Club appealed to and influenced me a lot, and 10 years later I'm still having trouble deciding whether those influences were good or not.
I'd love to hear your ideas though, you should totally do the video essay thing.
I think it's interesting that you saw a view of "women are unimportant" or "without value" ideal coming from Fight Club, because I think that it's far less about ambivalence towards women than active anger and misogyny. I think that Jack has a clear latent homoerotic streak - and so, in many respects does mainstream masculinity. But the big takeaway for me in regards to sex (and many other things in society in this film) is an angry, sour grapes mentality, just how Foldy said that their problems weren't so much with the masculine ideals, and the trappings of them, but rather that they didn't personally get them.
Incidentally, my favourite thing in the whole movie is watching Brad Pitt complain to Jared Leto that they're never going to be movie gods or rock stars... always makes me chuckle
Hayden T DO IT!!!!!!!
14:14-15:28
I gotta bookmark this cause it’s such a great tear down of something I struggled to put into words. Amazing analysis!
This is still one of my favorites, after all this time.
I agree, Amazing video.
SAME
this essay was remarkably well written and beautiful. It makes me happy to see men acknowledging their own repression. I'm a feminist and I hate the way third wave feminism doesn't acknowledge why so many men are damaged and uncapable of having healthy relationships. Maybe it's because we are a part of the problem. It's our responsibility to break this cycle and yet i still see women endorsing it and calling themselves feminists saying "men don't cry" "don't be a pussy" and "you're not a real man"
Blithe W Agreed! Maybe feminists like you and me can change that. Take back the term feminism, back to its real, original meaning. :)
Check out Men's Lib on reddit or facebook for people that support feminism but are also building support for men :)
That being said,I'm a man and most support I've got was from feminists :)
I feel like it's a little bit of a deeper problem than the extreme case telling men to open up and be vulnerable while hypocritically sipping from their "male tears" mugs.
In my experience, feminism all too often ends up simply being a re-branding of the same traditionalist values in the same way that fight club/project mayhem are in the movie. It's the same call for men to take assertive action in the interests of mostly women while holding enough emotional stoicism to set aside one's own personal issues so that they can serve the greater cause. The same total willingness to shame someone into the model by challenging their masculinity through their inability to attain female validation. Even the same reduction of women to passive objects with little to no agency or potency.
It also feels largely out of touch with what masculinity even is. So A LOT of definitions of "toxic masculinity" tend to resemble an outsider's caricature instead of a real critical analysis. Generally I find it comes across just as ineffectively as Fox News does when they talk about "what's wrong with the black community".
Lots of feminists want equality to go both ways! :) There's the He for She campaign amongst many other things. Like any identity or culture, it's always the most 'extreme' sections that will shout the loudest, but the majority of feminists I've met are very supportive of men's issues.
Blithe W it always makes me upset when other feminists dont recognize the way they perpetuate the system theyre trying to deconstruct, especially when it becomes intersectional and not just about them. in an attempt to help it sometimes does worse and while some feminists try their best to fix their mistakes (i used to perpetuate ideas that i was better than other girls because i was a tomboy; something that i found later wasn't mandatory or necessary) others are just as bad as men who refuse to admit we do need to deconstruct these toxic ideals
I'd left a comment on this video a few years ago, but I no longer stand by what I said, so I removed it. Have a great day!
Honestly it's very badass to change your mind and just move on. Well done freind.
I am seeing and responding when this is 7 years old. I wanted to post about fight clubs prescient presentation of why the US (and other countries) are seeing such a consolidation and passion of tribal politics and politicians using that to further their own goals (and regularly believing in it themselves).
Instead, I am going to offer you something you don’t need and probably get elsewhere. Affirmation. Thank you for sharing the responses you get. Those are unfortunate but not unexpected. As one person who only started to peruse your channel because Movies with Mikey suggested it, I am slowly working my way through your dense and prolific body of work. There are many aspects of your work that I would disagree with you over a beverage, but you make me think. You have brought a range of new ideas and new information to my mind and I appreciate that. Your work has had me reconsider some presumptions and explore many areas that I honestly don’t have much curiosity about until your presentation. Thank you for that most of all.
Also, your work is interesting. I laugh at myself watching a man sitting on his couch lecturing for nearly 2 hours. (And yes, I was periodically distracted by the cat.). That is a mark of the quality of your work and the skill you bring to this craft. Thank you.
Again, you probably don’t need this, but here it is anyways.
my god. each video is so dense with concepts i gotta re-watch them like 3 times
I never fucking understood why everyone always thought that tyler was the 'hero', it was always readily apparent to me that jack was.
He was trying to find purpose and peace, without having to be something he's not, and this asshole [his own ID] comes along and just ruins everything, ruining everything in the process... jack cared about marla, tyler just wanted to fuck her, jack thought of bob as a friend, tyler thought of him as a tool, jack wanted community [from project mayhem], tyler wanted revenge... It was painfully obvious how self destructive, rage filled, and antisocial tyler was... and in the end jack overcomes him, and is a better person [from the his own prespective, he was fighting tyler's destructive nature the whole way through, with a few exceptions where he was just plain duped] for it. He literally beats his own shadow and comes away a from it better for it...
But somehow, most people seem to come away thinking tyler was the hero, even still, even after all he did to ruin everything around him, how hard jack fought him, and how he lost in the end... It's always confused the fuck out of me.
I mean, i just saw this movie as a reflection on society, self loathing, and wanting change yourself to the point that it becomes dangerous.
I just came across this channel, and I'd like to say, thank you so much for making this video.
Definitely a deeper analysis than I'm accustomed to. Good on you, Foldy.
Wow...I had never read this far into Fight Club. That is quite a lot of subtext I would not have picked up on. Thank you for that.
1. If you aren't comfortable with the term "toxic masculinity", call it something else. Call it "machismo and chauvinism". Call it whatever. Whatever you call it, you need to see that there are certain masculine traits and behaviors that can be too much of a good thing. It's harmful to themselves and others. If you need an example of why toxic masculinity is harmful, imagine an untrained individual jumping off a cliff without a parachute because they need to prove that they are fearless. They die because they did something stupid in order to prove their masculinity. By the same token, an untrained individual dying in a house fire because he went back in to save his wife and kids is an example of beneficial masculinity.
I2. If biotruths about masculinity and femininity are so ingrained into our brains, why is it so easy to defy them? That's easy if you know your sociology. The gender roles that base themselves around those biotruths are social constructs and are NOT ingrained into the human psyche. Men aren't born a Tyler Durden and then society weakens them. Men can develop into Tyler Durden, but they can also not develop into a Tyler Durden.
3. Why is masculinity and feminity a zero-sum game? To go back to the example about the guy in the house fire, he did something fearless because he felt an emotion. I would consider that guy a "real man". Wouldn't you?
Dying in a fire is just as much bad as dying when jumping off a cliff
@@yonatanbeer3475 What if he saves his children, but dies from smoke inhalation? The firefighters would not have arrived in time, so he dies but his children live instead of the opposite. Is that the same as jumping off a cliff to be manly?
Brilliant analysis and breakdown! Easily one of the best I’ve seen for what is one of my favorite films/books. I appreciate your brutal honesty in your reading of Fight Club as a deconstruction and criticism of fascism, toxic masculinity, and capitalism it truly is.
I love your channel. I have watched several of your videos recently. Great stuff. You are a very smart guy and your videos are thought provoking and well made. That being said I find it difficult to be objective about Fight Club because it is one of my favorite films and a part of me sees your commentary as critisism I must not tolerate. Yet, inarguably, you have nailed exactly what the film-makers, if not the author of the source material which I haven't read, originally intended. Fight Club was a film about violence. But its purpose wasn't glorifying violence but rather explaining it and trying to make the nature of that violence understood.
I considered commenting specifically on the video, but then I read the comments, and you know what? I think I'm good.
Dan, if you read current comments on older videos, I'm a new viewer, having found your work through the brief discussion with Lindsay Ellis w/r/t RENT on Twitter which then turned into your (as of the time of this writing) most recent video regarding the framing of RENT and the Take Me Out / Light My Candle / Whatever the third song in that sequence scene. I've marathon watched the first four seasons and intend to continue with the next two and then go through the minisodes and all that and just.
I really like your work. All of it. Well done and thank you.
Pr0gram McSynth I found him through Ms. Ellis’s work too! I’m so glad I did; this content is interesting and couched in a way I’ve not heard before. I love finding stuff like this on CZcams. Cheers! 😊