Middle-earth Mysteries - Dorwinion
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- In this video, we explore the mysterious land of Dorwinion - where was it, and more importantly, who lived there? Was it Elves? Men? Or both?
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/ darthgandalf
"A Darth Gandalf video is never late, nor is it early: it arrives precisely when it means to."
Tolkien: mentions it.
Tolkien's fans: Where is Dorwinion, what is Dorwinion, who lives there, what happened there, what happens there, what will happen there, and after we got started …
This is 100% accurate.
that's what happens with every IP and fanbases, we just love lore!
Cuiviénen
Also Tolkien: IDK I just came up with the name.
That island in the Sea of Rhun is interesting - it would have isolated from the plains Easterlings (who were horsemen - not sailors). Tolkien approved the map showing Dorwinion at the river mouth, but the island could have had a few reclusive elves (remember the island is very big).
It says in The Hobbit that the elves in Mirkwood got their wine from "their kin in the south". The "south" probably referred to Dorwinion and their "kin" to other Silvan Elves. That's pretty strong proof that there indeed lived elves in Dorwinion, I believe.
It also says from the vineyards of men in distant lands, which probably refers to Dorwinion. Probably there may have been Silvan Elves along the shores of the Sea of Rhun, but Dorwinion had to be a Mannish settlement, since Gondor ruled this place, so if there ever was a strong Elvish present we would have known.
The full sentence is "The wine, and other goods, were brought from far away, from their kinsfolk in the South, or from the vineyards of Men in distant lands."
Hard to say what those "distant lands" might be, but I can't see any other place for "their kinsfolk in the South" than around the lands where the river ran to southwards.
And Gondor hadn't stretched to the Sea of Rhun for thousands of years. And did it ever really encompass the whole of that area?
@@goshlike76
And another potential benefit of trade with Dorwinion: If either of the Blue Wizards stayed true and news of some important development needed to get to the Council, an encrypted message could be sent in a wine crate; then Thranduil could have a messenger relay the news.
@@goshlike76Or it mentions the elves from The land of Gondor, as we know that some falathrim/Galadrim inhabited that area, however that would be possible only within The 2nd age
Great video! I would also add that, in his annotated map, Tolkien wrote the name"Mildor", which means "Land of wine" in Sindarin, but then wrote on it "Dorwinion", which, in exchange, has another meaning.
Also there is third candidate for who instructed the men of dorwinion in viticulture and agriculture. The entwives that formerly inhabited the brown lands are said to have fled east. Maybe some came to dorwinion and taught the men there the arts of viticulture and agriculture as well a love of growing/woodland things. This in turn would brought them closer in terms of cultural values to the avari elves who in turn shared some of the knowledge about these things. In edition it's possible the entwives then left for the forrest of the northeast controlled by the avari. This would have added to strength of that area since it was implied in the mod that the avari population was very low compared to other elven realms (the lowest in fact). If the Gondorians conquered that area then they might have given the name to that region. Being a international nation with well developed infrastructure and political ties they may have been the ones who put the men of dorwinion in contact with the mirkwood elves as well instructing them on how to build better ships to trade across the sea and river along with weapons craft, civil engineering, seige craft, arts & crafts, language arts etc.. Fast forward to time of The Hobbit and you have a advanced cosmopolitan, refined, artistic culture with a great knowledge of nature and the technological skill to maximize whatever gains they get from that knowledge.
Just what I was going to say
One interesting theory I've read about Bladorthin (on a really, really old Tolkien forum) was that 'Bladorthin' was, in actuality, the Steward Beregond of Gondor. Beregond was the greatest captain of Gondor since Steward Boromir I, and it was under his rule that Gondor began recovering its strength, which could include ordering Dwarven-forged spears to buff up his armies? In addition, he died in TA 2811, long before the Quest of Erebor even began.
It sounds like a nice place. It is great to hear of a kingdom and region where possibly the Elves and Men of Middle Earth live together.
If I had to guess what the combat would be like in this region they would likely use alot of carvery and support units and the region would unite to defend their homeland from Rhun and Orc invasions and use the native terrain to their advantage like the hills to prevent enemy armies from passing easily.
Like the combat in the story The Heroic Legend of Arslan or Arslan Senki as the anime is called. A very good one.
I personally believe that Dorwinion would be more like a Switzerland. It stays neutral in all conflicts so there’s no reason to attack it. If I had to guess they probably paid some kind of tribute to the Easterling tribes and in return were left alone. If they were permanently neutral in all conflicts Sauron would probably just leave them alone (at least until all other realms were subjugated) as his armies were needed elsewhere.
My husband brought up an interesting point in terms of alcohol production: out of all the types of booze mentioned in Middle Earth, wine is possibly the most industrialized. You have to clear land for the vineyards, plant the vines in neat rows on supports, deal with monoculture problems... That sounds much more Mannish than Elvish. I like the idea that Men brought wine with them when they came to Dorwinion, the elves said "holy crap we want more!" and then learned how to make it. Orchards somehow seem more Elvish than vineyards.
If we estimate that the Sea of Rhun is 150 mi x 150 mi (22,500 sq mi) this makes it approximately the size of Lake Huron or Lake Michigan in North America
Love this, and love what DaD did with the faction. I always thought Dorwinion would make for an interesting melting pot of cultures; Avari, Sindar, North Men *and* Easterlings. That last one would especially be cool considering we don't get any examples of "good" Easterlings past the first age as I recall. Envisioning some Chad Avari warriors side by side with Eastern cataphracts just seems like such a cool concept to expand on, I'd love to see DaD try and work that angle.
This
I know this is old but there might as well have been Gondorians who settled the lands at Gondors height. Just for later in the third age their descendants could still be there with their own culture entirely different to anything you would find in Gondor.
I wonder if most of the Avari ended up dying in the War of the Ring and those that remained were either killed in future conflicts, they faded, or maybe they began interbreeding with the humans of Dorwinion and gradually faded into spirits and became the eventual ancestors of a race of amazing Half-Avarim plant-growers
It was said that Elves that stayed in Middle-Earth in to the fourth age and did not choose to go back over the seas, became a rustic folk of dell and cave after a long decline. Whether that meant they went in to hiding or simply diminished I think they stayed in their areas until the Men in those regions became too numerous or were Nomadic like the Avari were said to be.
@seawind930 Exactly what I was thinking. Awesome profile pic by the way 👍
Once again a very good video. But what I think is a very important argument against the Elven theory: If Elves had lived there, they would have been attacked and destroyed by Sauron first of all. Dorwinion is very close to the enemy territory, Sauron hates nothing more than Elves, and these Elves would have had no protection by one of the three magic rings, like for example in Lorien or Rivendell. The wood elves had a tactical advantage because of the forest, but Dorwinion could probably be overrun by Easterlings and orcs very easily. Therefore, I rather suspect that men lived there who were mostly neutral "like Switzerland".
I would also guess that Tolkien would have mentioned it in the Second Age stories if Elves had lived there. For example, they probably would have been present and mentioned at the Battle of Dagorlad. In any case, what happened to all the Avari who did not come to the West remains a mystery.
My theory is that some of the Avari became much more assimilated with the men of the East. And those who chose to remain elves through and through eventually faded.
I always thought that this debate is kinda silly. Tolkien pretty much tells us who the people of Dorwinion are in the hobbit: they’re men. When describing the wine barrel room, Tolkien states: “but there were no vines in that land. The wine came either from their kinsmen in the south or the vineyards of men.” The southern kinsmen referred to are almost certainly the elves of Lorien, with whom Mirkwood probably had trade or at very least occasional contact. Maybe some of the wine is a gift from Celeborn, Thranduil’s kinsman. The vineyards of men therefore refers to Dorwinion. The land probably has a sindarin name because it was occupied for hundreds of years by Gondor. In fact I’ll bet you grapes were first brought to Dorwinion by Gondorians. If they’re descended from Gondorians the men of Dorwinion probably aren’t shy of the elves like their Easter long neighbors
Dorwinion: A land of Gardens... Entwives: Tenders of Gardens. Connection?! :)
*Shouldn't Sindarin be stressed on the first syllable?*
Anyway, the fact that Dorwinion is named in Sindarin doesn't pinpoint to Elves living there at all. Countless places are named in Sindarin, Gondor for example, Harad...
Hold it right there! Gardens east of the Anduin? How about ENTWIVES?!? 😃
One weekend Galion and I drank so much wine in Dorwinion, Smaug got a hangover.
Makes me wonder IF The Ent Wives came to Dorwinion, along with the humans they were teaching. And resettled in the first Sindar Land?
My personal headcanon is that Dorwinion is an Avarin Mannish equivalent of Dwarven Mannish Erebor and Dale. Thus they had friendly relations with the elves of Mirkwood, but given the way the Noldor and Avari didn't much like each other, the Noldor didn't interact or write about them much. Interesting you bring up King Bladorthin, as various writers have suggested an elvish etymology, probably deriving from _blador_ 'wide plain' and _thin_ 'grey'. Possibly it could derive from an Avari language similar to Sindarin
I randomly read a mention of Dorwinion on the LOTR wiki and I absolutely loved it. I kept thinking of what kingdoms and realms of man would be like to the east, and this is exactly what my imagination needed!
Wow... a mystery video on a subject i haven't heard of. Great content! Hope you make more like this
Actually Avari elves were mentioned specifically as acting as teachers of men in the silmarillion and while the eldar became sundered it entirely possible the moriquendi didn’t at least in Dorwinion. It would explain the name and fits the lore.
I think people forget that Tolkien said that after the great journey there were substantially more Avari than there were eldar. There should be an awful lot of them around the rest of middle earth.
My first exposure to Dorwinion was through Middle Earth Role Playing, decades ago.
same
Same too!
I don't think Men and Elves coexisted in Dorwinion, at least not in the third age, feels too "anachronistic", like something that would only happen in the First Age, and which was an exceptional ocurrence in the Fourth Age when Legolas was given part of Ithilien by Aragorn. I heard two theories I prefer. One is that there were two Dorwinions. One, the Dor-Winion of the First Age, probably a Nandor and/or Avari realm ruled by Sindar Elves to the south of Beleriand (not in the Sea of Rhun, which isn't really that much to the south of Beleriand to be considered "the burning south") and the other is the Dorwinion of the Third Age a realm of Men, primarily a mix of Northmen and Easterlings, that was at one point conquered and named by the Gondorians, who might've teached the local Men how to make wine and (according to the CK3 mod "Realms in Exile) who might've remained as a merchant class that took charge of the commerce while the Northmen took charge of the ruling and warfare stuff.
The other theory is that both Men and Elves did inhabit Dorwinion, but not by the time of the Third Age. Maybe Nandorin and Avarin Elves settled in the woods near the coast of Rhun, and during the First Age (couldn't be the Second Age if it's the same Dor-Winion as the one mentioned in the Silmarilion) were visited by Sindarin Elves who taught them winemaking, but likely didn't stay to form a kingdom. Eventually, Men would begin migrating west and come across the Sea of Rhun and its winemaking Silvans, who would then teach them how to make wine (as even though the Avari were reclusive, Tolkien did say that they thaught many things to the primitive Men they came across), but as the ages went by, the numbers of these Elves would dwindle, until eventually the last Elves of Dorwinion would either migrate west to join their kin in Mirkwood or east to join any Avarin dwelling in the eastern woodlands, leaving Dorwinion to become a fully Mannish kingdom by the time Bilbo comandeers some of their barrels.
The fact that Dorwinion means "young-land" could work for either theory, either with the Sindar Elves (and separately, Gondorians) naming that land "young" in the sense that it was recently discovered, kinda like how Vinland is also called Newfoundland. Alternatively, Dorwinion might be a name the Nandor and Avari of the sea of Rhun (who already knew the Sindarin language from when they taught them how to make wine) gave to the land once the Men they taught how to make wine began becoming more and more numerous. In that case it'd be the "land of the young", meaning the Men, as they are the second children of Illuvatar, and they aren't immortal so they'd invariably be younger than the Elves.
Have you considered making a video on The Tale of Gilfanon? I find these first-drafts of Tolkien's legendarium fascinating, and I think it could make for an interesting discussion (how much was changed, how much was kept, ...)
Honestly, I find a lot of Tolkien's "first phase" work quite difficult to read. I don't mind covering stuff if its relevant to the topic or interesting (such as "steampunk Numenor), but I don't think I could make full-length videos about Tolkien's earlier work without going insane.
@@DarthGandalfYT Fair enough, it does seem pretty dense! ^^
Bladorthin could be for Early Gnomish aka Noldorin... Blador = Wide open (Original name of Beleriand was Bladorinand), Thin = Grey... He could be fallen Noldor ruler over Dorwinion, prehabs?
Dang, Darth Gandalf out here with a video for just about every question I have about Middle-earth
I love Dorwinion! I have fond memories of fighting off the 38TH Rhunnic light infantry spam core with my avari rangers..
Wine and inner sea. Maybe inspired in the Mediterranean Sea.
Interesting! The sea of Rhûn reminded me of the Caspian Sea, or the Dead Sea, but Mediterranean would work too!
@@LeHobbitFan I agree. The Caspian Sea is not connected with the ocean and is on the east, the same as the sea of Rhûn. Greetings from Spain.
There is also a 6000 years old wine tradition in what is now Georgia and Armenia, that border the Black Sea. A little East of the Black Sea Europe and Asia separate
Yes more like the caspian or at most black sea
Wine making was invented in the Caucasus
Maybe its Cuiviénen? Where the first elves came from? Total guess on my part because wasn't Cuiviénen very far to the east as well? Thats the only other place in the far east where elves had lived. Some of them stayed there instead of following Orome I think.
ha, Elves can't hold their wine, at least that's consistent
My interpretation was always that Dorwinion was originally inhabited by elves (who gave the region their name) and probably started growing wine there.
During the ages they left, were subseded or driven out. The new inhabitants (possibly Easterlings) took over the region but kept its name and trade. They profited from trade with the Mirkwood elves, so why not keep it up, even if they are suspicious or potentially hostile.
In our world's history, there are plenty examples like this, which is why I like that theory.
But I have to admit that I can't think of any similar examples in Tolkien's world.
Just when I think I know plenty of LOTR this video pops up and schools me ! Great topic. A topic I would like to see covered is the history of the lands of Mordor in all ages.
I’m doing an adventures in middle 5e game at the moment, set 7 years after the five armies. As a side quest, the players are making their way to Dorwinion with Prince Bain to try and establish diplomatic relations.
My thoughts are that they are going to be of descendants of the first house of the Edain but have a Byzantine/Roman feel to them. They will be a republic but with a single figure head as a representative.
Adding the idea of Elves still having an influence will be interesting perhaps.
I think 'Young-land Country' contains more of a hint that you think. Though it sounds redundant it could actually mean 'country of new land' with the new land perhaps referring to the land itself rather than it being 'new' to the inhabitants, think reclaimed land, or volcanic, it is 'new land'. As Dorwinion seems to be famous for its wine, which indicates fertile lands, this could be the case as volcanic land is generally very fertile, so too is silt such as what is found along the Nile.
Video idea; Middle-Earth Mysteries The Last Desert.
There were groups of both men and elves who never came far enough west to play a notable role in the tales we know. I like the idea that at least in a few places they may have lived on the same land.
I really enjoy your videos, I just found them yesterday.
I would argue that Dorwinion had a strong elvish presence. Probably there are a few Avari here and there, yet this land was for centuries part of Gondor's domain. And we know that the Dunedain brought vine cultivation to the Men of Middle-Earth. This alongside your point with the Sindarin name coming from the Dunedain is not far-fetched at all. Tolkien in the Hobbit states specifically "vineyards of Men in distant lands". And while this certainly doesn't exclude Elves from wine-making, they usually don't live out in the open fields as Men did.
We would have known if there was an Elven settlement in a region where Gondor actually ruled at some point.
Plus we have to take into account as well what John Ratelif said that when writing the Hobbit "Tolkien had no idea where river Celduin would go, except for Dorwinion in the south", which kind of shows that he wasn't sure if he had in mind an Elven settlement in this land.
By all means, I find quite interesting a conjunction of Men and Elves, but it's probably more like an unstable fan-fiction than something Tolkien would write.
However, as we read in the Silmarillion about the wandering Avari, acting as teachers to Men and given the fact that probably the Entwives could have gone there, we can see a cooperation being born through generational education. Meaning the locals who must have been Men could uphold Avarin/Elven values and teachings.
Dorwinion must have had a Mannish probably Northman-type population who used Sindarin after Gondor took over the place, combined with the teachings of the Avari and the Entwives from the past, which is why they must have had good relations with their western neighbours as well.
So if there is a reconciliation of both theories, I can imagine Dorwinion being an Avarin realm initially, possibly with a Sindarin ruler at some point in the Second Age, although peculiar that it is never mentioned, but gradually especially after the war of the Last Alliance, it became a Mannish-dominated region, possibly with a few surviving Nandor here and there, which was named Dorwinion after the Gondorians of the Third Age conquered the region and installed vine agriculture due to the blessed location of the hills for wine making. Whether the Avari survived till the last years of the Third Age or not is hard to guess, but the Men of Dorwinion uphold their values and continue to be partners of their western neighbours.
What I read of Dorwinion says their wine was strong enough to create drunken elves. Not elven-made wine. Still, it hints they made it not for a far-away wood elves, but to a local market too. Which would thus include elves.
Suggestion: Things in Middle Earth that don't make much sense in real life. I have a thread on that in Spanish in Twitter. Or possible, maybe fanfiction, sequels or spin-offs of Tolkien Middle-Earth histories, maybe in the East. That would be very New and refreshing, not just referring to the canon as all or most channels do.
Hmm, the only thing that I can think of right off the top of my head that doesn't make sense in terms of worldbuilding is the inexplicable continuous population declines that we see in Middle-earth, most especially in Eriador.
That is a good one! Well done. The demografy shown, specially in very long-living peoples is not very realistic. Also things relates to economy and food. Elves in Beleriand seem to live without the need of working, even for good producing... In a pre-industrial society the great majority of people must produce food. Where are all the crops and livestock (new idea for me)? Religion (even more with enourmous evidences of divine beings and magic things and creatures), sex, humour and technollogical development is also very missing. Apart from that, I particullary like the geological questions. It is impossible for a continent to sink (Beleriand Numenor); and it would have, in Beleriand case, a drastic permanent climatical impact on the nearby areas of Middle Earth, now much closer to the ocean. Another original topic of mine is this: where was placed the inmense (or at least quite big) volume of rock excavated to create Moria? Other questions are about the loneliness of Sauron, the boredom and lack of huge progression or degradation of the soul in immortality, the fact that the nameless thing can exist (what do they eat?) and nobody knows it, the inconspicous living of creatures like ents and trolls during most of history, the underground life of dwarves, the ecology of orcs and other evil creatures under ground or in darkened, polluted and barren lands, or the fact that the taller creatures like orcs and dwarves can compete in war with men and elves.
Enjoyed this. Somewhere I don’t really know. Thanks
So glad I found this channel just as I was getting bored with other Tolkien channels covering the same things over and over.
I've fought as both the Humans and Elves of Dorwinion so many times, larger cheaper human armies or fewer slower to replenish but more powerful Avari 👍
Personally I think Dorwinion being a mix of both works. Maybe the people there are just different and do live alongside elves. It isn’t really out of the question. It’s just rare to happen.
Love it bro, amazing content, cant wait for the next ones :)
Already asked u the ultimate question last videos, a mistery behind the Edain ;)
A comment! A comment for the algorithm Gods!
Your video are always high-quality and interesting. Thank you for the work you do! I hope to see your channel grow to the level you deserve.
Dude this is such a good video I never even gave a damn about this place but it's so interesting wth
Love Mysteries, Second best Series. Can we hear more about first age?
Perhaps it was something similar to Bree, with different races living next to one another in peace, but beyond the novelty, it was never worth attacking. Alternatively, Dorwinion could have been a region rather than a kingdom, with different peoples living with and interacting, yet answering to different petty lords.
Very intriguing and compelling enthralling gem of a video of a little known and shrouded in mystery kingdom near the sea of Rhun. Always wondered if this kingdom of Dorwinion was a useful and powerful defensive bastion that forced the invading Easterlings to always attack south of it towards Gondor or north of it against the northmen and never really try to head towards the lands of the elves in either Mirkwood or Lothorian.
This gave me a question, in the silmarillion is it tolkien or is it suppost to be some in universe scholar who is explaining the Ainulindalë?
The Ainulindale was likely written by the Elves in accordance to what they had learned from the Valar. The version that appears in the Silmarillion is a translation by Bilbo.
Glad you've made the video, great, as usual.
Very cool, thanks!
0:31 Lol, the only game I still play
Hmm interesting video
I love this series
Nice lore! Good to see MTW2 mods still exist, may i reinstall after years and check this mod. But a TW LOTR would be dream like the Warhammer :)
11:35 in the crusader kings 2 mod LOTR I played years ago the factions were laid out as so, the men of dorwinion occupied the western coast of the sea rhun just north of the foothill/mountain range to the south. A clan of dwarves inhabited said foothills/mountains with a loose allegiance to mordor. Avari elves occupied the forrest formerly inhabited by the Hadorians in the north east. The Easterlings inhabited the southern and southeastern shore of the sea of rhun. If this was the correct political layout of that area then it's possible all 4 cultures mixed with each other but only on the periphery of there cultural borders. The men of dorwinion and avari being more closely knit due to there proximity to sauron allied Easterling and Dwarves. While Dwarves and Easterlings tied together loosely due to there allegiance with Mordor. Men on both sides provided the numbers while dwarves & elves played a indirect support role in the geopolitics of the sea.
I think the ent wives taught them how to raise berries like Tree beard said
That belfalas housing music
bro can you tell me what soundtrack you used in this video
Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, DAC SHOUTOUT BBBY!! Also have you ever tried AGO?
The dark land, the continent where ungoliant was going after ered gorgoth.
Could you make a video on the Christian influence and themes in the lord of the rings that would be interesting
Dorwinion, the super power in TATW DAC that steamrolls Mordor.
Darth Gandalf. What do you personally think.
What if numenor decided to conquer all of middle earth?
😊👍👍
How would that play out?
Shout out to third age 👍
we know Saruman and the Blue Wizards traveled 'East', well Dorwinion is east. Did any or all of them interact with the people of Dorwinion? Is that why Dorwinion was not evil and an ally of Sauron? or perhaps why Dorwinion was not good and ally of the Free Peoples?
It's possible they went to Dorwinion, but I would expect it's more likely they went further east than that.
LOTRO has the worst take on Dorwinion, showing them as deep southrons and claiming they had ancestral roots in Dale.
the Entwives were there also.....
What game is this at 4:25 ?
Lord of the Rings Online
Just play the Minecraft LOTR mod
If you're gonna use music from Lord of the Rings Online, please at least give credit to the game, and it's composer.