Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | The Wars to Come | Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne
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Part 2 of The Wars to Come: The Secret Identities of Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower Revealed.
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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I love how Jon thinks “it would have been a different fight with long claw”. This parallels GRRMs statement regarding a hypothetical fight between Arthur and Barristan where he said it would be a close fight, unless Arthur was armed with Dawn.
Dunk would take them both out
@@210SAi And have a spare hand free to chat up the ladies!
@@210SAi boy you crazy😭😭
Prime Dunk Cant Fuck Wit Prime Barristan or Author
@@Mo-sk7xo amen. lol.
Dunk was never a great swordsman.
It was his pure strength and his Flea Bottom training that won him fights.
Arthur Dayne wouldve sliced Dunk to pieces with Dawn.. And I love Dunk..but truth is truth 🤷
@@thisguy8106 forget dayne, Barriston slayed a monster in human form when he killed Maelys the Monstrous
If Mance Rayder has been secretly seeing Jon Snow grow up while sneaking into Winterfell, then it makes sense for it to be an act by Arthur keeping his Kingsguard vows. It also makes sense that Ned, out of honor, would spare him his life and allow him to take the black and sneak in to ensure he basically let Arthur do it out of respect. This would also explain the Ghost of Winterfell.
Obvioiusly, Mance either knew about Littlefinger's rocket pack or Varys's teleportation device. THats how he got from the walll to Robert's retinue on the King's Road.
hahahahaha...that is an explanation I hadn't thought of
If Mance is Arthur, Arthur tries to imitate/emulate the sort of king he thought Rhaegar would have been. A poet king. It is interesting that Mance visited Winterfell more than once, and remembers Jon. It is interesting that Mance felt the need visit Winterfell when he learned King Robert is coming. He even remembered where Jon was sitting. But even then, there's holes.
Yeah, like, If Mance is Arthur and has gone to King Robert's Feast at Winterfell, why didn't Jaime or Barristan recognized him, and if they did, why they don't think about this on their POV chapters?
@@PedroLucas-mg5je I could honestly believe they wouldn't recognize him or even pay attention to any of the free riders. Even then though, there's holes.
@@PedroLucas-mg5je if you haven't seen someone in years you aren't going to be able to pick them out of a crowd in a place you wouldn't expect them.
@@PedroLucas-mg5je Glamour
@@PedroLucas-mg5je your not going to be keeping an eye out for a man that "died" a decade ago
Mance's skill level with the greatsword, hardly ever seen in the series, is a giveaway.
It's a wonderful feeling knowing that so many people from around the world from different cultures and backgrounds can come together and discuss and share different ideas on this magical series of books God bless George r r Martin for this wonderful gift to all of us
that is the best part of running a channel like this...we get to talk to asoiaf fans from all over the world
Even if Jon isnt the son of Ned and Ashara it would still make sense for Mance/arthur, Qhoryn/Oswell and Tormund/Gerold to want ro look out for jon if he was Raeghar's son
But how would they know Jon was coming to the wall one day Ned only knew that a few days before that actually happened
@@stlegion-px1wobenjen and half hand were brothers in black. And benjen clearly had an intent to bring Jon to the wall before going to winterfell in book 1
Tormund's jokes about his member make burst with laughter every time
If Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne are Jon Snow's parents, it would actually strengthen his story connections to The Others if you read into it. It would actually improve his story as a whole and not weaken it like some suggest.
If true, Jon Snow is:
1. A Stark. A descendant of Brandon the Builder. And thanks to Rob Stark's final will and testament, the true Lord of Winterfell/King of the North.
2. The 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. The company thats sole purpose is to defend Westeros and the world from The Others.
3. A Dayne with Andal blood and an heir apparent to the Dayne sword Dawn and the title of Sword of the Morning.
Also, it wouldn't weaken Ned Stark's storyline and honor. Some say it would but it is very possible Ned Stark knocked up Ashara well before he was betrothed to Catelyn or even before Brandon was killed by King Aerys.
Daynes are first men not andals. And some theories have them as descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn
No Dayne ever has a claim to dawn. It is a reward for being the considered best swordsman in all the seven kingdoms and being the new sword of the morning.
I like how you brought up "Mance's" love and talent for music; Arthur & Rhaegar were BFFs so maybe he taught him how to play some instruments. It doesn't seem like a skill you'd pick up at The Wall or over it. Who has Dawn now? It sounds like too great a weapon to keep in storage.
George said Dawn is at Starfall. And sometimes generations, or possibly even longer go by without a Sword of the Morning being named
Jon lost one uncle beyond the wall and found another?
Exactly
The Order of the Green Hand which video covers your theory on where Benjen is this whole time?
@@210SAi Did benjen trick jon? Is the one but they havent launched part 2, maybe due to lack of info on the subject :v
@@210SAi Its kind of like what happens with Beric Dondarrion. He loses 1 man but gains 2. Kind of like how Jon loses Benjen, but gets Mance and Tormund.
You guys are my favorite ASOIF channel. Even when I disagree, I still love hearing your thoughts
it seems to me that somebody made a correlation between, Grenn and Pyp, and Whent and Hightower. Grenn being likened to a bull with Pyp being likened to a bat. Thus making Jon the Dayne.
I wish I thought of that...that is a very interesting parallel
It was user Preston Jacobs. He has similar content to yours. Trying to find the mysteries in the books and with the same attitude that it is not all so clear cut as most people want to believe.
yea he does. interesting guy
Preston has also mentioned that the hivemind kin is usually GRRM's big bad in his 1000 Worlds novels, thus pointing @ the Children as the greater threat.
than, there's the ToJ trio, who come all from houses that study the legends & mysteries of old, those in position to know that the Greater War was to come
Jon Snow is a Dayne. Probably Arthur Dayne's son.
2 years away and a beard, even those who knew me my whole life didnt rec. me
There's a lot I like about this theory, but one big problem I have is him being in such proximity to Jaime Lannister at Winterfell and on the way there. Jaime worshipped the ground Dayne walked on, knew him for years, and had almost certainly heard him sing, if he was a singer such as Mance. Even much older, with a beard, and with everyone thinking him dead, it is a huge risk, and I find it hard to imagine Jaime didn't notice.
@@AHermitTakesaWalk Do you really believe Ser Jaime would pay any attention to a common singer?
@@HEAVYDIAPER There's an argument to be made either way. I'm sure he would take notice if he heard him sing. Jaime was always pretty good at picking up on details, though more so after he lost his hand.
@@AHermitTakesaWalk correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it impossible for Ser Arthur to be Mance? Didn't Mance grow up at The Wall as like a child? Wouldn't Arthur have assumed that identity as a full grown man?
@@HEAVYDIAPER That's the story as it is told to Jon. I forget if it was the old bear, Halfhand or Mance who tells him that. I think it was Halfhand. I would imagine there is enough turnover of men at the wall, and enough separation between the various towers to work up a cover story like that over time. Just say he was raised as some kid in Mole town that no one would remember. Have him show up at one tower, claiming to be from another tower, with the Lord Commander and various rangers supporting the story.
You guys are the best! I am a junkie for ASOIAF theory vids on CZcams and only your theories and ideas seem to actually be correct I really like how you are presenting your ideas. I haven't felt like I was spoiling anything for myself by hearing out other peoples theories but I think you guys are really onto this, I'm totally buying what you're selling . thanks so much for the great videos I ca t wait until the next one!
Agreed. The OotGreenHand is in a league of their own. And like someone else in this thread so aptly put it, I almost look forward to their interpretations as much as, if not more than, I await the next GRRM installment of ASoIaF.
+Todd Oster Thank you so much
+B schuler That's just about the highest form of praise either of us can think of. Thank you
By the Gods I want this to be true. It makes almost perfect literary sense and lines up for a much more beautiful reveal of Jon's parentage rather than Bran's cerebro visions or Howland Reed just randomly showing up and dumping exposition.
Maybe Tyrion's work with the mountain clans is foreshadowing to Mance's work with the Free Folk.
Ok, I want to keep an open mind to this because, clearly, you guys have thought through this very carefully, BUT I have one major problem. We know Mance was at Winterfell (even if his story about how he got there is sketchy). Arthur Dayne was once the greatest knight in all of Westeros. How could he possibly be in a the same room with Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, AND Jaime Lannister, and none of them notice that it was him? Not to mention all the hedge knights, etc. Not a single one of them recognized the guy? It would seem like for an incredible risk for someone like Arthur Dayne to put himself in that position for no obvious purpose. How do you guys get around that?
I agree. Even after spending year away, most people still resemble themselves in some way. Anyone that really knew Dayne would know his look.
Richard Swartz notice how you didn't get a message back...
Richard Swartz he has been at or near the wall for 15 years probably changing his previous summer hue with a weather worn one. Also, they said many people join a King's party, but did not describe how he was dressed (could have been in armour). No one would look for Arthur Dayne because he's been dead for a generation.
Richard Swartz Isi
People that studied with me don't even recognize me after 6 months of beard, or a haircut. Imagine after 16 years of + hair and such.
I agree with all the reasoning about maNcE rAYDer being arthur DAYNE and potentionally the other KG being alive as well, but I think the reason he/they are so protective of Jon is because R+L=J, he is Rhaegar's son, the boy they were at the Toj to protect, and 'mance' went to winterfell to see who jon had become, maybe he'd heard jon was planning to take the black. I don't think either Ned or the kingsguard would have sent R and L's son to essos without any of them but winterfell is close enough relatively speaking (and as for Ashara's child I think that was Brandons, Ned was so shy Brandon had to ask Ashara to dance with him, and Barristan only says/thinks she 'turned to Stark' not 'Ned Stark' and there seems to be no animosity over this when he meets Ned again)
Every time I think naahhh, that's too outlandish, you guys give amazing evidence and I'm convinced every time!! Love your videos, please keep making them ❤
Thank you so much...we will
I am rewatching because I miss you two :( Also the last King of Torentine - Vorian Dayne took the black!! He was a sword of the Evening and the a great knight as well. So Arthur Dayne choosing to serve his wows to Office of Sword of the Morning over his King's Guard vows to protect heartlessly a King he didn't support is such a Dayne thing to do.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this ...
I already had this idea... I could be wrong, but after watching your videos I've been getting a stronger feeling that GRRM knew that there was no way the show could ever portray his novels properly. Some of this 'secret identity' stuff only works in the books because we can't actually see people's faces. For example, Mance being Arthur Dayne, if they did that in the show they'd have to use the same actor and that wouldn't work at all as a big reveal because we'd be able to tell right away. And yeah, you could say that the actors they picked looked similar between the old and young versions of themselves but I really think that's just a coincidence and they're not doing that. The show needs to be a lot more simple to appeal to a wider audience and to work for something that's on TV. So that's why I think that MAYBE (hopefully) when David and Dan answered "Lyanna" (probably) to "who is Jon Snow's mother?", GRRM agreed to do the show with them not because they had the right answer in the books, but because they had the right answer that would work in the show, aka the simplified version of his plot. I mean if it really is this complicated, and god I hope it is because it sounds way too good!
Hope this comment wasn't too convoluted lol.
I would agree with the secret identity portion because in a tv show it would be incredibly obvious because people can actually see the people....I think they are not doing Mance = Arthur and Tormund = Gerold in the show, but chose to pay tribute to the real story by selecting actors that look like younger versions of the actors playing Mance and Tormund... I still think it is a real possibility that the 3 yet to be named characters that perfectly match Aegon, Lemore/Ashara, and Connington will be introduced this season...Admittedly, that is more of your area of expertise...and D&D have been quoted that they gave George a "shocking" answer...R+L=J was already a very popular theory before the show came out...I personally think the most powerful scene the show would ever have would be amidst the carnage of the war to come Jon meets his mother (who would recognize him immediately because he looks nearly identical to what Ned looked like when she met him)...there wouldn't be a dry eye on planet earth
The Order of the Green Hand "there wouldn't be a dry eye on planet earth" haha xD yeah that would be cool to see. I'm gonna be looking into these similarities between Jon Con's group and the new casting calls. If I say something about that in one of my videos I will make sure to mention I got the idea from you guys :)
kk piter :D
Thank you so much...as someone who is as respected as you are in the community that would be incredible for us...let us know what you find...we're super excited :)
Val this must be true or it's the biggest most committed most masterful deception layer to the real reveal in the books
Arthur Dayne's besty was Rhaegar, who was a musician and obsessed with songs. They probably jammed together, and Rhaegar was privileged and powerful enough to be the most likely person to know all of the songs South of the Wall, at least.
That literally answered the question I *just* posted haha, so thankyou
@@made-line7627 Hah! Noice!
Notice how one of Tormunds titles is husband to bears.
I got legitimate goosebumps at the end. Man I Love George R.R Martin. Every time i re read certain passages or quotes i get the same effect as the first time i saw it..hell there's like 4 that bring tears to my eyes every time.."Egg, I dreamed that i was old". Fuck..George has NO equal.
He's the best writer I've read
+Matt Walker Me too! When she talked in the end about how much he misses the feel of Dawn in his hands, I legit got an emotional lump in my throat. Yikes!
thank you so much guys!! i feel the same about his writing. the scene where mormont dies gets me everytime. i literally sob. he's amazing.
gllyflower Yes! and the..."ah, now theres a sweet sound." (:
The Order of the Green Hand Oh, absolutly. Everytime. For me, I'm hard pressed to find anything that truly touches me more that Septon Maribald's Broken Men speech (I'm getting emotional now). Although, Catelyn's death was pretty damn impactful. I know you guys dont like her, and i disliked here even before your super Insightful videos...But after being Rocked by Robb's Murder, King G.R.R.M had to write the words "No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair..." Fuck me dude i actually just made myself cry lol..
Your videos are so in depth and you guys are making them at the perfect time for me! Finishing up A Dance of Dragons now! Can't believe I ever watched any other theory videos. I do believe that some may be true for the shows adaptation but the books are so much !! Thanks for all your hard work. Please keep it up
Thank you so much!
Awesome stuff guys! Thanks for this. I'm re-watching the first 2 parts while waiting for the 3rd. You're making a lot of sense!
Thank you so much!!
Hi😁 Your part two was so good because very specific details! It's fabulous that you give us an insight to Val's storyline! I cannot wait! As always your videos rock ❤
Thank you so much
So if all the Kingsguard survived Tower of Joy what did they do there? All unleash their weapons and then suddenly decide to have tea?
we think they were there for a meeting, and ended up fighting because Ned's men thought Robert had a right to know about Lyanna's pregnancy
Bhavik Bhagat probably when they saw her
Bhavik Bhagat oh then I doubt they would know about her pregnancy
My personal thought is the fight happened. Ned and Howland Reed are nearly killed and then Howland manages to say something to get them to not kill the two of them.
Crazyscotsman I personally think, Arthur was there because he wanted to confront Ned about his own sister. Which, in a way is poetically ironic. Here's Ned on a journey looking for his sister, and yet Arthur has legitimate beef, for a sister Ned had wed and bed, then passed over for another woman....kinda like Rhaeger, allegedly.
I know this is a late comment, but I noticed that the Night's Watch Oath is slightly different in the series. There is only a small part that is missing from the series, and it says: "I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers" I always thought this was a mistake in the series, but now I think they removed it on purpose. The series has to cut some storylines, like Lady Stoneheart and Young Griff. They also seem to have decided to cut all references to the Sword of the Morning. Without Griff's and Dayne's storylines, it is easier for the series to assume R+L=J. They have less characters to introduce like this. But the reference to "the light that brings the dawn" in the Night's Watch Oath is pointing out that the Sword in the Morning might appear among the crows. Their duty is the same: to protect the realm
This gem popped up in my CZcams feed and i had to watch (again). I sure miss you two! Please come back when season 2 of HOTD starts :)
I'm not sold on everything but you guys make a great argument & got a new sub
Thank you
damn, you guys are good. I thought I was well versed in all this, but both keep blowing my mind.
thank you...we do what we can
A black coated brotherhood doesn't make you do what's transpired - but...Blood protects Blood... ✋ N+A=J
I usually don’t fully agree with what you guys say, but I LOVE listening to your well constructed and thought out arguments. You give me something else to think about when I’ve been thinking and listening to other people argue one way for a while.
thank you so much
This was really great you two!
you guys are amazing. you know things I swear only grrm knows as well. best got videos out there by far. keep it up.
Thank you so much. We will
After rewatching season 5 episode 1, I had heard of this theory before but never believed it. Then I noticed Mance said "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come." And I just got freaked out, that CANNOT be a coincidence. I really do like this theory, more than the Rhaegar = Mance one.
we think the show is allowed to allude to the truth, but not allowed to share it because it would devastate book sales...that's why they killed Stannis and gave Jon Stannis' plot last season so they wouldn't disclose what Jon's real plot is going to be
+Kevin Arcanite especially since neither Mance nor Arthur say this line in the books..!! :D
lady green hand
Dont remember if this was in the vid or not but Giantsbane also said it took Mance 20 years to band the wildlings together, what else ended 20 before s1?
You have to take into account that is a pretty common saying among the warriors so just because Mance says it, does not push the idea that he is Arthur Dayne. Even with the lack of "social media technology" it would take a lot of cooperation for Arthur Dayne to hide his true identity. Think of it. The greatest swordsman in Westeros and head of the King's Guard shows up to the wall to take the Black, and NO ONE sends a raven South to the new King? With all the spies, around the same time Benjen Stark also taking the Black knowing Ned Stark "killed" Arthur Dayne... There is no way that secret is kept.
in the show there are more characters how said those lines. but most of them are norths men. jon said it against dany before depart from dragonstone. benjen stark agaisnst bran and meera when he helps them. and mance and ser arthur dayne said it. what do we know of mance before his title king beyond the wall. was he a norths men then it doesn't make sense for ser arthur to said it. or it was a hint to nedd that he doesn't want to fight unless provoced.
I've been watching all your videos for the last few days. So many of your theories are phenomenal. I have been like minded in a few of mine. GRRM is great at never putting all the cards on the table at once, to keep it interesting. Love your work!!
Love your videos and theories. Thanks. :)
Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning and Mance Rayder, the-King-beyond-the-Wall - Like How many characters are described with a five word phrase after their name repeatedly? And capital letters only twice? second and fifth word. Must be hinting at something!
I may not know all the meanings of colour white but I recall that white was chosen as Pope's colour for the symbolism of purity and untouchablity. So white tent may just meant tent of untouchable one.
The dornish song should be a huge clue knowing George.
Tormund too many names, hahaha! I myself do question as well what Tormund says, he acts like a spy. He clearly receive a message from Mance at one point but acted that he can't read.
The fight is quite convincing evidence to your theory.
When I watch videos that you and Preston put out i normally don't notice most of it when I read the books but I did think about how awesome Mince was when he fought John.Great video as always
+Michael Watson Thank you
I have spent my weekend watching your videos!! I wish I had found them sooner!! I can’t get enough, LOVE them ALL!!🖤🖤🖤
Thank you
fuck this is good. i want this next video to come out more than i want the winds of winter to come out it is so good. :)
Thank you
um, that's just made my day ! haha
i am not just saying this to blow hot smoke up your ass or anything but this is so good. i think( thought ) mance is Rhaegar Targaryen but now i don't know. i am rethinking a lot of stuff.
Question: do you think the show doing the Tower of joy proves this idea wrong??? .
(i don't take anything on the show as cannon )
+Jason . Donoghue thank you soooo much!! i think that the tower of joy scene they showed is false, it actually didn't even match Ned's fever dream, which leads me to believe that the weirwood net has incorrect memories or knowledge of the events at that TOJ. What do you think? Also who was the guy in the turban with Ned??? Lol
+Jason . Donoghue We feel like any groundbreaking new material that the show releases ahead of the books is not the way it will happen in the books. There's no way GRRM and his publisher are going to let HBO spoil the books. The overall outcomes are likely to be similar but GRRMs secrets are his to tell
Great video once again. Especially the last bit with Rattleshirt/Mance Rayder and the greatsword. When I read it, I just looked over that part. How can a "wilding" learn to fight with a greatsword? They don't have much steel or any knights to train them with. I feel like you are spoiling it for me lool. I want to be surprised with the Winds of Winter.
Thank you...that fight scene is so easy to miss because you think it's Rattleshirt (and no one gives a crap about Rattleshirt)...plus we were reading them out loud, which I think helps, and she was reading that chapter, and I was like STOP...who the hell is that guy? Then when we found out Mance was alive and it was him fighting, we started looking at his character a lot more closely... Thanks again for watching
Yep, not much good steel north of the wall, the longer the sword blade the better the materials need to be and the better the smith needs to be, and a 2 handed Great sword is useful against men with a lot of armour and pike formations which don't exist beyond the Wall. Wildlings would be armed with weapons that would also serve as tools in their daily likes, mostly axes and machetes, and some spears here and there.
Very well said sir
Very interesting and well done video. Appreciate the time you took in delving into the story.
It will interesting to see how you finalize everything up to the pink letter and the leaked chapters.
Keep them coming.
Thank you very much...we've been looking forward to getting to this next video since we started...somehow, all of these different plot lines together, and we think we have a unique perspective on what binds all of these separate stories, including the Dunk and Egg stories, the Princess and the Queen, and the Rogue Prince all together
The Order of the Green Hand
The one lingering question I do have is how do we account for Tormond sons.
He has one Jon's age.
Great question...that's going to be addressed in detail in Part 3...I'll give you a clue though...take a look at his 97 titles...some of them are pretty interesting
Watching your videos for the third time and the still amaze me, great job
I don't see how your theory about Mance being Arthur Dayne is adding up. Lets suppose it's true. Ned Meets Dayne at the tower of joy. The three kings guard decide to travel to the wall and go their separate ways. At this point Jon Snow is born whether to Ned or his sister. 13 years pass, " If I remember right Jon is about 13-14 years old in the books" That would only give Mance/Dayne 13 years to join the knights watch, then turn against them, and then band the wildling army together? Doesn't seem like enough time to build the reputation that Mance had with the wildlings.
Jon turns 15 in his 3rd POV of AGOT...I don't think it takes that long to build a reputation when you are as good at fighting as he is
An other hint for your theories: In the Melisandre-chapter Mance says to Mel, that he tasted the dornishman's wife, which could only be Dalla, his own wife.
Great point
Doran Martells wife has left Sunspear years ago allegedly to Norvos over the Quentin fostering. She could be anywhere.
Damn you guys are brilliant. It is a delight listen to you theories
I really like your videos and theories, @the order of the green hand!
you guys bring so much to the table. thanls for all your hard work and study.
thank you
well this was interesting!
Thank you
This question isn't so much about this video (it's great so far) as it is about your previous ones about Jon. But could it be that both the Show and the books answer the Jon parentage question with different answers? I believe in the show they will do R+L=J and in the books I believe (much like you guys) it will be N+A=J. what do you think?
We think that there are two ways the show can go with it...Option A is they do what they appear to be doing, and combine Aegon and Jon into one character to save time and money as well as being potentially easier for show-watchers to understand given the world wide acceptance of R+L=J for the past 10 years...It also allows GRRM to reveal one of HIS biggest secrets himself...I have often thought that it is likely that HBO has the right to tell his story, but it would be unlikely that GRRM and his publishers would allow language into a contract that would grant HBO the right to tell the world his secrets...why would anyone buy the books if HBO tells you all you need to know? Option B is they take that incredibly ambiguous TOJ scene and the Varys scene in Dorne with the QOT and Sand Snakes where he tells them the answer to all that ails them is Fire and Blood, and shock the world in episode 1 next season by introducing Aegon...plus, it will give viewers that "touching moment" where Jon meets his mother, Ashara, who is with Aegon, and will recognize him immediately because he looks exactly like Ned did when she met him. That would be a great scene...Monday headlines world wide would be reading "Jon Snow Meets his Mother." Obviously, we're rooting for option B
The Order of the Green Hand I'm with you with option B. It would make sense. There's also an actor that they cast who everyone believes will play Rhaegar in flashbacks during season 7. I however believe he's playing Aegon or at least hope he is.
We saw that as well and thought/were hoping for the same thing!
I'm hoping for option B as well. I also like your theory that R+L=A and Ned did the swap because of obvious problems raising a silver haired baby. I also agree that if this is going to play out in the show, Aegon will need to be introduced asap...as well as Ashara.
But I think the show will do option A as you described. Mainly because this does not completely spoil the books, even if it does partially, because the overarching story will unfold the same. They left out any backstory on the Dayne family, Ned & Ashara's relationship, and what it takes to be called The Sword of the Morning. They also likely will let Jon wield Dawn at some point with no real explanation on how or why he is worthy. And the sword itself just "kinda works" for him...because magic!
+Steve M Very well said
Another great video. Thank you
Thank you
Uu f
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I have just had my mind blown by these videos. The Mance and Arthur theory along with the other men at the tower of the joy being who you think they are makes a lot of sense now.
thank you so much
You guys have some solid theories. I like how your just using the books as reference. Your turning my understanding upside down! Lol
Thank you
The Order of the Green Hand I agree with the above statement and as I have said in previous comments about how much finding this channel has completely turned my "understanding" of these books around. With that being said, as much as I am intrigued by your analytical style, as complicated as GRRM'S work is...do you think it's possible that the best deception he has going is the fact that there are no ulterior motives other than the ones that he presents? That his masterpiece of ASOIAF has taken on a life of its own through his fans? Could that be why The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring are taking so long....because he doesn't want his fans to be let down in comparison to what we (the overly analytical fans 😉) have come up with and spent so much time (years anyone?) debating? What a let down that would be 😳
I think they take him so long because of the incredible detail...from doing this, we have found that every character, place, stone, race, etc is perfectly chosen with the right colors and stones and everything to be perfectly symbolic of their character...no matter how deep we go, we are continuously astonished by the fact that whenever we dig on any particular topic we find masterfully researched everything...he certainly puts his own twist on things, otherwise everyone on planet earth would have figured it out...his books are almost like 1000 page poems where every word is chosen with care...the only thing he is not particularly good at is math when figuring out when things in the past have happened...the Targaryen dynasty's timeline is a mess in the middle...Egg from the Dunk and Egg stories wasn't even born yet when the forward of the Dunk and Egg stories tells you they took place according to the dates given for the line of succession, but other than that, he's a complete genius, which is why everyone all over the world is talking about his story
The Order of the Green Hand A genius indeed! As I am impatiently waiting the release of the next books, I am so happy that I found your channel and all the unique ideas you bring have lead me to re-read the series a 3rd time! Keep up the great work!
Thanks again...every time we re-read the books we notice even more... he is so good at hiding information in plain sight
Plausible theory, but even if Jon is Rhaegar n Lyannas son it works....Arthur Dayne would look out for Jon whether he's his nephew or his crown prince's son...heir to the iron throne. Dayne n Hightower were both kingsguard sworn. I'm still going with R+L=J. ❤
love these videos guys great job
Thank you
Dayum TOoTHH…. Very good content! Even if I’m not on board with every theory… you guys make it extremely interesting to say the least!!!! Love your appearances at the end!🔥💥
You are implying that Bloodraven is giving Bran a false vision (i.e. that Dayne and Hightower) died at the ToJ. I think this may be true because the vision that Bloodraven showed only depicted Dayne and Hightower at the ToJ). Where was Whent? Is this the show's way of saying that the vision is wrong?
Why would BR give him a false vision though? Because BR is against humanity? but why?
are you talking about the show? because nothing about that scene was accurate...they didn't even have the right number of people there...both sides were missing a man and one of Ned's guys appeared to be dornish for some reason...on top of that Lyanna was screaming Ned's name loud enough for Ned to hear her out loud then when Ned walked into the room she was barely audible...how did she know Ned was outside? and that wasn't even bloodraven in the show as far as I can tell
The Order of the Green Hand Right. my point is, if we are to take the show at face value, then BR gave Bran a false vision assuming that the show runners didn't completely botch the toj scene. everyone is saying that the guy next to dayne is Hightower and not whent and whent was completely missing. second, why would Hightower take a back seat to dayne? Hightower is lord commander. third dayne is dual wielding dawn and another sword which is completely wrong. dawn doesn't even glow. my question is, was the scene a complete screw up or are the show runners trying to tell us something? specifically that br is not to be trusted.
I'm just thinking out loud lol but maybe bloodraven gave Bran a false vision. we all know from ned, how the toj scene was. we know 3 against 7.
the real issue is more likely whether they are actually allowed to devastate book sales by revealing his secrets before the books even come out...also, the children carve eyes in the trees so they can see and the knowledge of those given to the tree in death but there was no tree nearby nor were any of those men who were there given to a tree so I can't see a logical way the tree could have any idea what happened there to begin with...it might know what other people heard happened
If Quorin Half-Hand was actually Oswell Whent, wouldn't he have known that Mance Rayder/Ser Arthur Dayne wouldn't have him killed ? Therefore, why did Quorin sacrifice himself ?
Hi John, thanks for watching. It is our belief that in order for one of them to live long enough to be captured and brought to Mance, the wildlings would require one of them to turn their cloaks and kill the other. Since Mance's men, the wildlings, are not privy to the backstory and who these men actually are. There is a 0% chance both of them were going to be allowed to live, and since Qhorin had been the enemy to the wildlings (as he was a ranger for a long time), so many of them wanted to see him die (As opposed to Jon who is unknown to them.) So Qhorin made the decision that if they can't both live, and most of them have enmity towards him, he would sacrifice himself, so that Jon may live. Additionally, he knows "Jon has a different part to play," which to us means it is even MORE important that Jon survive, as opposed to him, who had been playing his part as a man of the Night's Watch, helping his friend prepare for the wars to come, and, lastly to get Jon safely to Mance Rayder.
Except, if I recall it correctly (which I may not be at all), they were ALL going to see Mance. So they would have seen him no matter what. As I recall it, they both were told they would see Mance. I'd love to know how you figure this '0% chance' of them both getting there alive.
too slow406 mance actually gave the order to kill all of them. Only reason Jon was spared is because he killed Ohorin
how? when? they hadnt seen mance when they were captured. they were on their way to go see him. so how exactly was mance able to tell that group to kill them?
I think the halfhand spared his friend and former colleague the pain of having to kill him as Mance/Arthur would have no choice but to do so in front of his wildling peers and i highly doubt the halfhand would oust their real identities and give up their cover they have been keeping for years just to save his own life.
Might as well save your friend the pain and save Jon's life at the same time.
i had so much fun and excitement watching this. great vid
Thank you
Great stuff guys!
If mance dayne was in winterfell during Roberts visit, how is it that Jamie did not recognize him?
because he was 15 years older and sitting in the back with all the other people that don't matter...Jaime wouldn't bother paying attention to free riders unless one of them decided to try getting close to Cersei or the King
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand fair enough.. But what about stannis... He spent hours with him and must have known him well
Jon is not the son of Ned and Ashara. Period. The rest, may be true, and sounds really cool. But Jon is not Ned's son (neither Ashara's). In the books Ned barely says Jon is his son. He call him 'blood of my blood' almost everytime. That's the way Ned made people think he is his father without telling a lie (because, you know, Ned never lies).
When he looks at Jon he always thinks about how much he looks like him when he was younger. At the same time he never thinks about Rhaegar which Jon should look like at least a little bit. The case for R+L=J is pretty thin in the books with just a few hints, like the way he fights. But... Considering that everyone thinks he looks exactly like Ned. That everybody knows about Ashara, and house Dayne even names their heir after Ned. That so far he didnt have any Dragon Dreams, only wolf ones. And that the show did a lot of bull**** before, killing a lot of characters from the books and blending them (sansa+fake arya, jon+stannis, jorah+connigton and so on). Anything is possible and we will find out next year if GRRM is nice to us.
Ned calls Jon his son in the first Bran chapter and Cat says he calls Jon son in front of Northern lords. Also, Ned and Jon are hardly together in the first book and he doesn't think about him much, it's not weird for Ned to hardly refer to Jon as his son. The quote I'm referring to is "Lets go see what my sons have got themselves into" when referring to Jon and Robb.
Welp, guess we know how the Ned being Jon's blood father turned out on the shows.
Chayse SoHo yeah but d and d more than likely changed that
Yeah, who cares about the show. It's fanfiction.
Mind officially blown 🤯 ... Mance=Arthur gives a whole new twist to the northern plot line that is so damn juicy. I love it!
Y’all are too much! Blow my mind every time!
I feel bad that you guys have to constantly tell about 1000 tards a day that these are based on the books. I hope you guys are right though, makes me realize just how much I miss no matter how many times I've read the books.
if it wasn't happening on a daily basis, I would have thought the lack of show references and constant use of book quotes displayed on screen while being read aloud would clue people in...but it doesn't
Some men, you just can't reach.
On another note though, you've earned a subscriber.
too true...thank you
Maybe they should stop using pictures from the show
Sorry but Jon's mother was Lyanna Stark, Rhaegar his father and Ned Stark his uncle.
I can see a lot of everything else mentioned in this as being possible, but not that. All the evidence points to R+L=J and I think that any connection felt by Quorin Halfhand (if he is Arthur Dayne) is due to Rhaegar being Jon's real father. I could see Rhaegar confiding in Arthur Dayne, Oswald Whent and Gerold Hightower about the prophecy and Jon being the prince that was promised, and that being why they remained at the Tower of Joy to protect Jon. Soon as anyone mentions that Jon Snow is Ned Stark's bastard, that would instantly make them aware of who he really is.
How they came to convince Ned Stark of this at the end of Robert's Rebellion would be interesting. And what happened to the other men who accompanied Ned to the Tower of Joy. Perhaps Ned didn't believe any of it but since Lyanna made him promise to protect Jon, that's what he did.
tell me about this evidence...is it a blue flower that should be a blue rose growing from the wall? is it a bed of blood? is it promise me Ned? I just summed up all the evidence to support that theory in less characters than a tweet...we took 8 videos with a total length equal to that of a feature film to lay out all the evidence of N+A=J
King Steve I'm with you. Brandon Stark took Ashara's virginity just like Barbrey Dustin's. Doesn't make sense for the young honorable Ned to sleep with a woman for the first time that he isn't married to and that his brother is also banging. Brandon and Catelyn Tully weren't even betrothed at this point in time yet either.
duke3434 it males perfect sense, don’t you realize how hot Ashara was?
Everybody has flaws especially in GRRM stories, it’s very unlikely that Ned’s secret is something quite surprising.
Anyway it’s very likely that Brandon is the farther of Jon. It would fit the bill if Ned covered for his brother. Also if Jon were Brandon’s son his claim to winterfell would be much stronger and Cat would probably have him killed.
duke3434 cat was betrothed at 14 and was 16-17 when the rebellion began, so most likely was bethrothed at early age and waited for Brandon to be knighted
Brandon being Jon's father is impossible. Brandon was only capable of conceiving Jon at the Tourney of Harrenhal in 281, seen as he was in the North until going south to wed Catelyn. This means that Jon had to have been born in 282. Robert's Rebellion broke out in 283 and ended in 284. Ned and Catelyn married during the war and Robb was conceived in their marriage bed. This would mean there's an age difference of at least 1.5 years between Jon and Robb, with Jon as the eldest. Something like this would be easily noticed in the early stages of infancy and during puberty.
Instead most seem to believe Robb is older. This would not have happened if Jon was 1.5 years older, as an age difference of that size would not go unnoticed and definitly raise suspiscions.
Of course Mance Rayder is such a genius commander, he's Julius Caesar after all.
I'll admit the idea of there being a bigger picture going on than what is outwardly presented on the page. But I would have never connected the dots between Giantsbane and the White Bull. But damn I see it now. I certainly can't wait to see how it all works out, as it reeks of something Martin would do and he sets it up with other characters all the time already. It's almost required to have a secret identity as it is. Anyway, great job!
thank you so much! this was one of the very first things we figured out when reading the books, and it blew our minds. Well we figured out the whole Mance=Arthur thing, and then one day while I was in the shower, I was like omg Tormund is husband to bears!! Could it be that he's Gerold and Maege's man! haha thanks again
Hey, Will you do updated vids, incorporating certain truths (ie. R+L= J) unveiled by the show?
we make videos based solely on the books, so we won't update anything until the books prove something we say wrong
I just found this channel, really digging these theories, you're making me want to re-read the books and take notes just to see what theories make the most sense. Though the R+L=J/R+L=A/N+A=J, might be the trickiest since season 6 has pretty much explained away that one which the changes and absence of certain characters.
we don't view the show as something that is capable of confirming or denying anything for at least 1.5-2 seasons now...based on statements from D&D and George since season 4 aired alone pretty much tell you everything you need to know...George calls the show licensed fan fiction he's ok with because they paid him dump trucks of cash for the right to do so...and D&D flat out said that their show hasn't and won't spoil the books and readers are going to be shocked when they find out how different they are
Your videos are freaking mind blowing!
I hope everyone of them are true!
Great work truly great!
great job on your videos
Thank you
Somewhere in books, Mance will get Dayne sword back, and die. Giving sword to Jon, special space comet metal sword to fight what are basically aliens.
love this! very well presented. but what was the tower of Joy scene all about? wasn't Bran a witness to AD getting killed?
Thank you guys so much for existing lol
hmm this makes me think of when a fan asked George RR Martin if howland reed knew who Jon's mother was, and GRRM responded with "the Shadow knows." This made me think of a Melisandre chapter in ADWD when she reveals rattleshirt to be mance rayder to jon. "The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and SHADOW around him writhed and faded." also a few paragraphs later, "With whispered words and prayer, a man's SHADOW can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak." Well If Mance Is Arthur Dayne he would almost definitely know who Jon's mother is regardless if it was Ashara or Lyanna.
These lil stabs here and there against Ser Alliscum Thornbag, so satisfying...
Yaasss! More, more .... give me more! Can't wait for the next video!!!!!
thanks clint! you're awesome. :)
well, looks like the Jon controversy has been solved. No Dayne blood. Just ice and fire.
why do you think the Song of Ice and Fire is a person? and what about the Starks makes them Ice? living in a cold place? is everyone from the North ice?
Amazing video !!!!!!
Hello OotGH, do you have any idea who the "White Lion running thru grass taller than a man" is supposed to represent?? It is the most confusing vision Daenerys has on pages 530 & 531 of Clash of Kings
It appears to be about Jaime Lannister, but it is difficult to say for sure
this is very interesting and very well presented! i thought the same thing for a minute about mance being AD but then thought i was losing it. i can't wait to finish the books. they've done a good job with the tv show but clearly so much is lost from the books that its such a shame. hope i live long enough to read all eight!!! come on grrm!
SOA in a GOT video, this just became my new favorite channel
Sons was so good....Catelyn and Gemma are practically the same...they light fires wherever they go and other people pay the price
I cant stop watch this videos!!!
thank you!!
I have been binge watching your video's over the last few days. You guys really delve deep!
I do have a question though - and please for give me if this isn't the right video for the question....As I mentioned, I've been binge watching...
Anyway...here is the question:
If the Blood Raven is being held captive by the Children of the Forest, then why doesn't he warn Bran about the children?
we dont think he has warned him yet because he hasn't told him everything he needs to know yet...Bran is a child, so there is no reason to tell him until its time for him to leave...it wouldn't help anything and BR knows the entire world might be depending on him successfully teaching Bran what humanity needs to know, and getting him the hell out of there safely so he can tell everyone else that needs to know...Bran is 9-10 in ADWD...a kid that young might do something that alerts the children to the fact that he knows, so not telling him guarantees that he acts natural
Good point. I was letting the TV series influence me. I saw the quote from the directors of the tv series at the end of your latest video. Looks like the books and TV series are going to be quite different going forward, which opens up a lot of possibilities.
Thank you for your prompt replies.
Love your video's!
I think you both write a great alternate story to ASOIAF. Your great info about ned+L =j are spot on. The book and show are not going that direction, but your evidence is solid and we'll researched.
thank you so much....we view the show and the books as two completely separate entities at this point...George referred to it as licensed fan fiction he's ok with because they pay him dump trucks of cash for the right to do it...Benioff said the show and the books are so different readers are going to be shocked...we still think that George, who says that he truly enjoys shocking his readers, is going to truly shock the world and Jon is going to be Ned's son and the future Sword of the Morning
The bear that Tormund keeps referring to about having sex with may actually mean Maege Mormont.
Do you guys have a video on The Others?
We have a What Woke the Others video
Omg! This is a mindblower.
This is the second time I’ve watched this video, this time after I read the books. Of all your videos, this one has changed my perception of the entire story. The Melisandre connection makes total sense, and the swordplay quotes leave only little doubt.
How did I not catch this? Makes me feel stupid. Perhaps, my mind is still polluted by the show. Lol
It’s cold and nasty outside where I live, so I think I’m going to reread this entire section from the book.
Brain is spinning. 😎
thank you so much
This theory is one of the main reasons I’m pumped for Winds. If it’s true it would be so awesome.
Amazing theory. You people are amazing. I love the both of you 😂😂😂
Where are you getting 8 to 9 days? It was around a month from when Robert sent word to when he arrived
Benjen Stark told Mance details about the Royal visit to winterfell, if you have not thought about this before... Benjen leaves for the ranging mission and finds Mance, they talk about the Winterfell dinner and the soon to be arrival of Jon Stark..
Thanks for the reply
No problem...we try to answer everyone
I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, but the name "Dayne" is hidden in "Mance Rayder". Could there be a hidden anagram? George wouldn't make it very obvious, and I can't place the remaining letters (M, A, C, E, R, R). It could also form "A Dayne", "Am Dayne", or "Are Dayne", but then I still can't make sense of the remaining letters.