A fact-checked debate about euthanasia in Canada
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
- 2 opposing perspectives and 6 true facts about Canada’s policy on Medical assistance in dying (MAID).
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:36 Fact #1
3:10 Dr. Green Introduction
3:29 Background info
4:07 Fact #2
5:21 Dr. Maher introduction
5:42 Fact #3
7:20 Fact #4
8:31 Fact #5
10:04 Fact #6
11:20 Questions
13:44 Personal experiences
15:47 Debunk
17:10 Uncertainties
19:00 Closing statements
In 2016, a Supreme Court case in Canada removed the criminal penalties for doctors providing a patient with a medically assisted death. Since then, the country has been embroiled in a legal and ethical debate about where to draw the line on who qualifies for one.
In the US states where it's legal, that line is drawn at a terminal diagnosis with 6 months to live. On the other end of the spectrum, countries like Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands allow anyone suffering from a serious condition to qualify, so long as they’ve exhausted treatments available to them.
After a series of court cases, Canada has landed somewhere closer to where the Benelux countries are: there is no terminal diagnosis requirement, and next year, people whose only serious condition is a mental illness will qualify for an assisted death.
While the Canadian public appears to show large support for the policy change, there are vocal minorities who believe that it is dangerous. Many in the disability rights community believe that making a disability an eligible condition for assisted death is discriminatory. Some psychiatrists and mental health practitioners are concerned about when you can decide a mental illness is eligible - and that it could hinder the work of suicide prevention.
This is the debate we present here. Dr. Stefanie Green is a practitioner of medically assisted dying (MAID) in British Columbia and is the co-founder and president of the Canadian Association of MAID Assessors and Providers (CAMAP). She also wrote a book about her work as a MAID practitioner, called This is Assisted Dying. She argues that Canada’s policies have been successful and have been extremely meaningful for her patients.
Dr. John Maher is a psychiatrist based in Ontario who leads an Assertive Community Treatment group and is the editor-in-chief of the Journal of Ethics in Mental Health. He argues that there aren’t enough safeguards in place in Canada and that offering the option of euthanasia to people with mental health will undermine the suicide prevention work he does.
In Vox Video’s take on a debate, we asked both participants to identify facts that their opponent would have to concede are true. They were given an opportunity to review each other’s facts in advance and, in a video call, agreed on a set of six. In the video, you’ll see those facts presented, with each participant given the opportunity to add a “footnote” to their opponent’s facts. We added four additional rounds to our format to give our participants more time to flesh out their viewpoints.
Here's a document that has all of the sources we used for each fact:
docs.google.com/document/d/e/...
Vox is an explanatory newsroom on a mission to help everyone understand our weird, wonderful, complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. Part of that mission is keeping our work free. You can help us do that by making a gift: www.vox.com/givenow
Watch our full video catalog: goo.gl/IZONyE
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If you’d like to dig through the sourcing for each fact, we created a doc for you: bit.ly/3Owasif
EDIT: Here's our previous episode about cannabis legalization: czcams.com/video/8TPaCsQVwA8/video.html.
I’d love to hear any feedback about our debate format or about any topics you think we should tackle next.
Thanks for watching.
-Laura
Please keep doing these.
This is a really great format. In times of misinformation and clickbaiting, a fact checked discussion like that, backed up with graphics and explanations, and with professionals exchanging opinions and facts in a calm manner, this is truly great. I hope you do more of these 😊
Btw the set design is superb ❤
Hi Laura, Thank you for this video ❣ I think it would be important to add a fifth piece at the end with "proposal", because with these serious topics I think it is important to at least give an idea of the road ahead from both
If only every topic could be approached with such respectful, factual debate with the opportunity to explore each side.
As for other topics: abortion (although it is probably too late in the current political climate of the USA), gun laws (ditto above), how do western countries decide to intervene in wars between other countries (or their Civil wars) - does the government being supported have to be 'perfect' (no graft, excellent human rights, etc) or what criteria should be used.
MORE OF THIS PLEASE
Good job to Vox, the two doctors, and the moderator. This was absolutely the right way to hold a "debate".
Disagree. Not enough fallacies, slurs, or threats of violence. /s
@@kahner93lmao
A discussion - very rare to see when people are passionate about their stance
Dr Maher needs to play Russian roulette
@@boysteacher3818 the point of a debate isnt to be a spectacle. the point is to properly discuss a topic that is either controversial or a topic where people have diverging views on. the point is to convince the person you're debating of your point, but to be open minded enough to understand their point, and to not desperately latch on to your view if you lose the debate. at the end of the day the point of a debate is for both parties to learn in a civilised manner, not to make a show.
This could be better if they narrowed down the debate to euthanasia for patients with mental health issues since the pro euthanasia doctor just kept referencing terminal illness cases.
I think this is good constructive criticism. I really enjoyed this debate, but I agree with you.
Same thoughts here, especially with the personal experience section. That feeling of gratitude from the old man suffering a debilitating illness does not guarantee that the same situation will be experienced by anyone who undergoes MAID. It also does not directly address some of the anti-euthanasia doctors more pressing concerns. I think Green should've focused on that aspect more
So true, It would ne nice to have a rematch to fill the particular point as it seems to be the crux of the matter.
I am and always be pro euthanasia (correctly done) but having suffered from mental ilness in the past and recovered I know how tempting this path out of suffering can be and I acknowledge that strong safeguard must exist on this very specific case
@@metetong2065 This is one of the part that worries me the most. At times it felt like my life had run its course and nothing could fix it. Yet, sometimes just a little nudge in another direction can open up your perspectives a bit.
@@metetong2065 agreed, it's the mental health question that I feel is much more important and is so poorly understood that we can't make informed decisions on this and informed decisions about life and death should be the most important.
Two professionals in their respective fields discussing their perspectives on a polarizing topic in a calm and constructive manner is such a breath of fresh air.
Seriously, *please* make the a series.
yessssss
Obvious problem: This can only be done if there are Canadians on either side. You know this...I know this...If you disagree, lets fight by the bike racks after school.
Yeah man totally, like I'm personally pro-euthanasia but I saw no problems with either perspective.
It is a series
@@747Cone Exactly! And when it's over we shake hands and move on. No harm done. Mostly.
It’s so much easier to watch a well-informed and respectful debate. Idk when we got used to shouting, heated debates, but we need more like this.
Everybody knows whoever shouts the loudest is right, why waste time on all this fact checking.
@@scoops2 No- the quiet kid is right. It only takes the quiet kid to speak- not with words -but something more effective.
it's refreshing to hear people actually talking and not shouting their views at each other
I think it helps that these are experts on the topic at hand, not just experts at getting more clicks.
Also, no "owned by facts and logic" stuff here
@elfrjz Totally. No one is advocating for the abolition or complete deregulation of euthanasia. It's just a matter where the lines are drawn.
U meant not American people? 😂
This how we're supposed to argue. Otherwise, progress is withheld and we just end up holding each other back.
Being a Canadian, I've heard a lot about this debate. I think the crux of the issue is that our social services are crumbling, which makes MAID a more appealing option for people who have nowhere left to turn. The problem, therefore, is not MAID but the crumbling social services. We should be making housing affordable, healthcare accessible, and other such changes, at which point we will be sure that people accessing MAID aren't doing it because they have no other available options.
There are so many issues, we need a livable basic income in place because that would allow a basic quality of life, and protect those who choose MAiD for poverty reasons or who otherwise go unseen.
The thing is as long as maid is available, there’s not a strong incentive to actually promote social service and welfare reforms. The incentive structure is entirely different.
Basically this. It feels disingenuous to say the societal issues are a "separate issue" when the solution you are providing by its nature purposefully bypasses those issues in the first place. It's like buying a new car when the taillight's out, we've skipped so many steps that should have been considered because for some reason in this world our supply of taillights are arbitrarily withheld from people that need them.
@@fahim-ev8qqI disagree strongly. Essentially your argument is that until we have a baseline quality of life filter, MAID shouldn't be a thing. Which the issue is that filter is subjective. It's also asserting that maid would produce an impact that reduces needs for service x or y, and thus we would coordinately reduce that service to the previous level. Which to be clear is something we should wholly not allow. Like if we had rampant maid due to length of time of organ list, and we then saw a cut in funding for things that increase organ donation, that would be cruelty. It's kne of the reasons why surveys of maid recipients is crucial so that we are aware of why it's being used. However at end of day it's a rights issue not unlike abortion. Forced birthers him and haw and say the children should just be adopted or not conceived (despite reducing access to contraception), but just like with MAID, we will never have the level of total access sufficient to their level of satisfaction because that isn't actually the issue to them but a post hoc rationalization
@@fahim-ev8qqthat’s like saying we shouldn’t provide a needed service (A)
just because other needed services are also required (B and C).
The truth is that all of them (A,B and C) need to be available.
Uhhh... Vox? What is this? This is astounding! I love dialogue and debate, but in such a polarized world, this type of content is almost non-existent. This is not just excellent journalism, this is a gift to humanity. Thank you for bringing about awareness and knowledge.
*polarized (polarised in Britain)
@@henreereeman8529 and *dialogue, and *existent, but hey, who's counting?
@@flavioptferreira thanks, I've corrected all of these. Never liked typing on my phone.
@@CharlesReinmuth I feel that on a spiritual level as somebody who would rather type on my bad laptop keyboard over my decent phone
I never want to watch a debate again that is less well prepared and thought through than this.
Would love to see one about gun violence in the US.
MEANWHILE IN THE US PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES
It's really not thought through at all, actually
@@ekeclout3941 Care to elaborate?
Honestly i'm impressed on how civilised and respectful the conversation is. Hope Vox does more of this!!!
Well... They're Canadians 🤣
Agree!
I wish Americans were more like Canadians, and American media more like Vox.
@@MLHuntsadly it won't change until humanitarian issues stop being politicised and until politics stop being entertainment. I wish politics were boring again
100%!! 😊 It honestly felt relieving. For once I didn't have to endure extremist rhetoric. This, my friends, is how actual experts disagree. Neither of them are proposing the abolition or deregulation of euthanasia, they simply disagree on where and how lines should be drawn.
We need more debates where both sides come to the table with facts and respect!
Who knew that excluding baseless extremist positions could be more effective? 😅
@@patrickdallaire5972And recruiting domain specific experts!
If I see dr Maher in person I will put hands on him
@@lordnextdoor3589are u ok?
I struggled with major depressive disorder for almost a decade and tried over 10 medications to help as well as therapy. It wasn’t until I tried TMS therapy that I actually improved. I’m glad I waited and had the strength and family support to wait that long.
Thank you for sharing this, @mstwissy. I'm working through those challenges right now. I'm not suicidal, but I understand that impulse. And the anti- debater in this instance conflated several issues and made some troubling assumptions. I would not accept medical or psychiatric help from him. What really baffles me is, why do people have the right to decide when someone else decides they're through with life?
I am so glad it worked for you!! TMS didn't work for me, unfortunately. I have tried almost everything for over 30 years. They call it ''treatment-resistant depression'' these days. The only option I have yet tried is electroconvulsive therapy, which I'm concerned about due to the memory loss issues even if they are only temporary or for a short period of time because I'm having memory issues as it is. And ketamine, which was finally approved by the FDA in its nasal spray form, esketamine, a few years ago, but is not yet covered by disability insurance. What I truly wish is that psychedelics were easily & legally available since many scientific trials have shown impressive results. It's an incredibly difficult & exhausting illness to have that still carries the stigma of weakness, which is such a devastating thing. I feel for every one of us.
@@louzander Hi, I'm curious what issues you feel he conflated & what types of assumptions did he make? I appreciate your time!
@@divinereference You mentioned psychedelic therapy, just wondering if you've tried it personally?
My mom passed away 2 months ago. She was the toughest woman I’ve ever met. But god, phase 4 cancer basically ate her alive. Went through two rounds of chemotherapy. And it failed quickly. The pain was excruciating, especially in the week leading to her death. Morphine could not help. That was the time when I hope euthanasia was legal and accessible in my country…
I'm so sorry about your mum, I hope you and your loved ones are doing okay.
No-one should have to suffer like that. I can only assume MAID or the equivalent of it is not abailable in your country, which is sad. There will be less and less cases like this in the future, thankfully.
@@Bubba__Sawyer In Asia, it’s pretty tough. Of course I do hope euthanasia could become an accessible option, for one. On the other hand, I am also counting on R and D in medicine, to cure more diseases. So that fewer people need to use MAID and receive quality healthcare.
No gaslighting, no mudslinging, no bad faith arguments, just two people concerned about people with different views as to how to inherently deal with the situation
Really incredibly well handled debate - 2 experts in their field, strong establishment of the rules, communicating calmly and openly about the facts on the ground and how these experts disagree with how to interpret these facts.
Most importantly for me, there isn’t a mentality of ‘winning’ or ‘losing’ this debate - far too often debates about incredibly serious political topics like climate change are presented as a competition, and it just devolves into cheap point-scoring and shouting, which only serves to entertain, not inform, the audience, and I’m very glad to see a debate system that entirely avoids this mentality.
@@elfrjz I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who is well versed on the climate who would take they anti side. There have been studies that were done by fossil fuel companies, that warned them of the same, which the fuel companies buried.
Climate change is scientific issue in most of Asia(at least that I can vouch for), it is action to stop or reduce it which is a political topic
Well said!
That's the great part about debates, generally speaking, both parties are "right" in their own sense, it's generally just a matter of deciding how you feel about either side.
Both of these people care deeply about ending suffering. Thanks.
We must have been looking at two completely different people then because all I saw was a decent man and a witch.
I watched the entire debate, and I agree with you. Both these doctors are coming from a place of caring for people. I disagree with him but not on everything he said. He made some valid points but it didn't change my mind.
@@TryingtoTellYou We must've been because I saw two decent people
@@supernukey419 Decent is the antithesis of murderer.
@@TryingtoTellYou You'd prefer for a terminal patient in constant pain to continue being in pain and force their loved ones to partake in it?
I love the way this was set up. However, I almost feel like this is two different conversations. MAID for mental health vs MAID for everything else
100%
people having no other option" is not CHOICE.
we need livable basic income country-wide!
Duh. That’s how debates work. If they where arguing the exact same thing they would agree. The arguments are on those small “two different conversations” differences. That’s how most disagreements work even
@@yucol5661 No, that's not right. A debate is about answering a question. In a proper debate, the two sides each present an answer and attempt to convince each other that their own answer is the correct one. The issue here is that the participants don't just differ in the answers they are presenting; they are also attempting to answer subtly different questions. One is answering the question "Should MAID be allowed under any circumstances?", while the other is answering the question "Should MAID be allowed for patients with non-terminal mental conditions?".
Yeah they're talking about two completely different issues and while the points are valid, it doesn't really address the other party's issues directly
Maid for anything else is not taboo. For the most part
"Killing people while they are on waiting lists is profoundly immoral."
Wow, that quote really spoke to me.
That rarely happens.
@@sorrywrongplanet8873 Doubt we won't see an increase in it happening once mental health can be used as a reason for MAID.
It's wrong, so I'm not sure why it "spoke" to you.
@accelerationquanta5816 Not wrong.
The person is on a long waiting list to get treatment for their health problem. Inflation happens, rent goes up unaffordable, groceries jumped 20% in 2 years and their beloved dog just died. Are they truly in a well state of mind to make the decision to take their own life? Irony is that for a government strapped for cash and providing supplemental care...... Hey man, anyone else want out! Eugenics
I'm just glad MAID is available in Canada. My mother had a late cancer diagnosis, once her 3rd unsuccessful round of treatments concluded, electing to die brought her such peace. In the end, it must be the individuals choice.
My condolences.
This is it. This is the format that will save us from polarization and political infighting. Please do more Vox!
I agree, but Vox alone won't be enough. We need all news channels to be inspired by this format. Then the western world will move forwards in a much more positive way.
I hope these debates turn in to a series. It's extremely refreshing to see such polarising and important issues being discussed in such a well researched, moderated and respectful way. Kudos to Vox for arranging this thought provoking debate!
Holy... the designer of the set should get an oscar or something. Two people, each in their own room, but discussing at the same table. I love it.
You just copied the top comment from the last episode... that's just sad.
@@antonoisyeah pretty embarrassing
If you pay attention to detail there is a plant in the man's room and a non working clock in the woman's room
@@elfrjz For me a plant represents life, something that can thrive, a stoped clock is something dead, something that stoped working
Set makes them look cramped. It was very distracting for me.
Wow I was and still am for MAID, but hearing that it is easier to get MAID than other treatments is heartbreaking to hear. we need to have the option for other treatments be an actual viable option and not take years to get treatment.
That is concerning
It is not EASIER to obtain MAID than other treatments. It is simply FASTER to recieve assisted dying because after the administrative approval process the "procedure" is a simple injection. Compare it to other injections. How long would you have to wait for a Tetnus shot after an exposure to a rusted metal cut? How long would you have to wait for insulin? MAID treatment is not equivalent in man power to surgery, where you need a team of doctors, a surgical suite, sterilized instruments; it is equal to the man power of getting a tetnus injection in the hospital.
No one say "yikes I have to wait 6 months for a heart transplant? No, I refuse to wait, sign me up for MAID I can be dead in 2 months"
No maid should be the primary and only treatment available.
Dr. Maher has made me reconsider a lot of my views on MAID. Very thoughtful, and necessary, critiques of, at the very least, Canadian laws regarding this issue.
In particular his pushing for more research into the socio-economic circumstances around people who speak of using MAID. Society making it easier to access death than social care is a massive problem.
Is there evidence that our institutional health, institutional advancement, scientific 🧪 understanding, culture, and infrastructure can make that not true even with full funding?
Mental health today is a terribly underdeveloped, with the major solutions being little more than being throwing money and time at the problem.
Humans seem to overestimate how good they are at dealing with mental health. The treatments are no panacea and have terrible success rates. More like duct tape until the body heals itself.
Consider the pro-MAID doctor has a financial incentive for MAID to continue too...
@@borisyeltsin6606 By that logic, the psychiatrist has an incentive for his patients to continue living and paying for his services for months or years longer rather than accessing MAID and ending their lives.
@@Bubba__Sawyer go back the school. One has a negligible financial incentive (the fraction of a fraction of a percent of patients that might terminate their lives early) vs one who makes their entire livelihood from the legalization of a practice. Good grief
@@borisyeltsin6606Suicidal ideation is the most prevalent impetus for seeking out psychiatric care. You're being extremely intellectually dishonest to claim there's more money in euthanasia than often life-long psychiatric intervention.
I work in long-term care in Canada. I work with people of all ages who are dealing with a variety of diseases and illnesses that completely impact their quality of life. I have had clients choose to do MAID, and I have seen how It can be a truly liberating and positive experience for them. Allowing someone to choose how their life ends, gives them control of their circumstances when disease has taken that away from them. I loved this debate though, both sides had really solids points and I respect that they can share their views without being disrespectful.
What about the family members? Do you know how much destruction & pain the family members are left with? How do they cope? 11:48
@@susansuarez343 to be frank, they will lost that loved one either way. Wouldn't it better to know that they will pass away in their arm, lovingly and without pain? Terminal illness, cancer for example, is extremely painful, and self administrated MAID can be even more painful on top of that suffering.
@@VuLamDang in Canada we have all of the best pain medication available! We are not a poor country, we have everything so that a person doesn’t have to suffer with pain!
@@susansuarez343I don't think this should be about the family members' feelings unless the patient chooses to consider it. If a patient has no close family members or their family hates them, does it give them more of a right to use MAID? No. The reverse is also the case.
This has nothing to do with the quality of Canada's pain meds. People's pain can exceed the legal limit of pain meds a hospital can give a patient, so patients can still experience pain. Also, like you implied by mentioning the family's pain, pain is not always physical and physical pain is not the only pain that matters. The patient can choose MAID due to the nonphysical pain they're experiencing. I'm not discounting a family member's pain but when it comes to the decision to use MAID that choice should fall on the patient and not the family
@@susansuarez343 I hope you haven't suffer from cancer and post op pain. Strong medication, bar anesthesia, make that pain tolerable, instead of blindingly painful. I've been through it. You will suffer even with painkiller, AND you will suffer psychologically, mentally while on painkiller too.
Thoughtfully argued! What a great debate structure! Thanks VOX!
Yes. No attempts to dunk on each other, or ridicule each other with stigmatizing buzz words. Very good for a truly informed society.
This debate made me question my own stance and realize how profoundly complex this is. Good job Vox!
Great debate. As a Canadian, this has confirmed my opinion that the availability of assisted dying is a positive, but MAID certainly has its problems, rooted in our failing social supports. Life isn't fun for lots of us, and denying people the right to choose is inhumane. A conscious and premature death can be much preferable for all involved to years spent in incredible suffering.
Agreed. I also support MAID. I agree with Dr. Green though in saying that the lack of social supports and the availability of MAID are not intertwined issues. I don't think MAID's shortcomings are rooted in our lack of social support, they're rooted in long held beliefs that individuals should be denied the right of choice over their own body.
And just to clarify, no, I'm not talking about the vaccine, everyone had a choice on whether to take it or not.
As a Canadian, I am thankful MAID exists. I have had a family member make use of it a couple years ago, and I can imagine how much of a struggle his life would have been if he hasn't been able to access that care. However I also know how flawed our health and mental health system is and while I know the two topics will always be linked, I wish the lack of access to care - especially the lack of access to mental health care - was the more talked about of the two. Thanks for this debate Vox, it's always nice to see someone come up from my own country.
I don't like people calling it healthcare; it puts it on the same level of care that we absolutely should prioritize over it. We should never consider killing someone as a solution; it should be considered as an admit to an unavoidable defeat; one we should never allow to happen again.
Dying isn't care.
@@__keysnot technically, but is it always worse than living? I don’t think so
@@__keys the act of dying itself may not be care, but being given access to a painless death with dignity when you are terminally ill certainly is.
@@josephmother2659ontologically it is because nonexistence is absent of suffering.
This is what a debate should be about. Facts.
Wait what? I can't bring in my alternative facts? /S
no a debate comes first. This is some whitewash. That net is full of holes. See fentanyl.
My father received MAID in 2017 after his pancreatic cancer treatment stopped working. The MAID program was incredible and I wish that everyone had the experience that we had when it comes to loosing a loved one. Great job on the video.
I’m deeply sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing this story.
Cancer is the worst. I am also sorry for your loss. However, I will never agree with government sanctioned murder.
@@TryingtoTellYouexcept when it's something you support? Do you support the idea of a death penalty? Right to legal lethal protection? Any action in war that would lead to the death of another human?
Imagine if presidential debates were held like this
This is how any debate that wants to be taken seriously should be held. MAKE THIS A SERIES!!
in my opinion, it should be legal. but, as a society, we must do everything we can to ensure it doesn't come down to that. for example in Ontario,l many people on odsp (disability) consider MAID because of the poverty levels of funding they receive.
i support a livable basic income to allow a minimum quality of life for all.
What is many? The vast majority aren't and there's safeguards to prevent people who are only doing it due to poverty. Canada actually has numerous social plans for those that are disabled.
I love this fact checked debate series. I hope this becaomes a stable item that gets produced in the long term. We absolutely NEED such displays if civil debate of facts, done respectfully.
Or rather, the metaphorical kids need to watch adults in the room adulting, instead of being just bigger, more dangerous kids because of their physical maturity.
This comment needs more visibility. Well said.
"killing people while they're on waitlists is profoundly immoral"
These two fundamentally disagree but yet objectively agree on so much. Please keep finding these unique people to talk to each other
Im a Canadian who has severe IBS and has had to eat the same meal every day for two years now to avoid the pain. If the day comes when it gets even worse and I'm left with nothing to eat euthanasia may be my only option, so I'm glad I live in a country with these laws.
I’m in a similar situation with food. IBS can sometimes be helped by probiotics (bio k+ is one that is designed to treat IBS). Plus a lot of severe IBS cases are actually SIBO, which requires specific treatment.
I empathize with you. May you get better soon.
@djgolf3256 would you mind my asking which meal it is you're limited to and what restrictions make it the only option (eg "no dairy, gluten, fructose, leafy vegetables, etc")-- If it can even be explained in that way? No hard feelings if you don't feel like sharing.
I don't have any health issues (yet) but having experienced my parents' decline, I will not be moving anywhere that doesn't allow MAID.
I'm sorry for your suffering. Would Canadian insurance not cover TPN (also called PN)for nutrition? In America, this is covered for people with a non functioning gut.
I got really hurt while working. I can't receive benefits from WCB because the doctor didn't point out the now serious effected areas. I can't work, I can't stand and can't get medical help except MAID. I can't keep suffering with no way out of this pain I live in. The system is broken but I am eternally gratefull for MAID as it will help the loved ones I leave behind make peace with my passing. I am so happy to see the end of suffering in 88 more sleeps. It's like I have been given one last chance to enjoy the last of this world and I am very greatfull for enjoying things for the last time. I find it poetic and peaceful. I hope anyone reading this doesn't have to suffer as much as I had to and can find their peace.
As someone who’s been suffering from severe mental illnesses AND physical illness with no treatment, just knowing I’d have the option for a peaceful self chosen death would improve my life quality. Healthy and often younger people simply have no comprehension of living with such illnesses 24/7 365 days a year for many many years, how big the loss is, how dark and lonely it gets, with no end in sight and worse no hope because you have tried everything and nothing is working. I don’t want to end my life, I want to live my life knowing the end won’t be this long and painful journey.
@@TryingtoTellYouwhat is wrong with you?
@@eastw1nd Right there you're proving his point further. No compassion, no empathy, on what people like us go through. Yet you wonder why the lady said society is failing us or why we're often feel alone in our struggles. I wish we didn't have a world full of narcissistic people.
@@shareye8783 I can't even remember who the commenter that I had replied to had said before they had deleted it, so sadlyI can't respond meaningfully to your comment.
I suspect you believe I was replying to the OP - I was not. Pls see the "@tag".
I feel exactly the same. I also have both and most people cannot comprehend what I am going through. I just want a peaceful way out.
@@eastw1nd Apparently (Ben/Tryingto) deleted his comment. Idk why. Maybe he deleted it, cause he was talking about something personal/relatable in his life and now wish to keep it private. Either way, water under the bridge.
As a Canadian who is not educated on this topic, I found this debate very informative on both sides.
I've had 2 relatives use MAID and im so thankful that it exists. Both relatives were suffering everyday and just wanted the suffering to stop.
This is incredible, the moderator and the 2 doctors were able to make clear arguments knowing they weren't going to be questioned on whether the information was true or not and simply just debate on this difficult topic.
I am so impressed by this format. Not only did I learn more about the topic, some of my views actually changed and became more nuanced.
I hope you produce more of these structured debates.
Me too! Exactly my thoughts on the video as well.
I second this and I do really hope this becomes a series. What a great way to ingest information.
I wish there was a segment at the end where the two parties decide together of a statement, whether it'd be just a sentence or a full solution, that they'd both agree on. To bring closure and show that they listened to one another.
It'd be such a departure from usual debates where no one (including the audience) can take anything away from it.
I loved this! Healthy stimulating debate without name calling, bring this to U.S politics please!
Please please please do more of these! I don't even care on the topic--I just want to hear real conversations. This is so well done and I've SO enjoyed these!!
It honestly gave me the impression that most of their main concerns revolve around the same things like access, wait times, cost, etc and that bettering those would advance both of their opinions
I genuinely think this deserves an Emmy. I can't stress enough how great this format would be in a presidential debate.
More of this! I hope fact-checked debates becomes a series, there's nothing more important than rational debate these days
Your right
I love the extra parts of this! The facts ofc are the meat of this format, but the questions, personal experience and uncertainties grounds and humanizes the debate so much! Looking forward to more of these
This is incredible journalism and media. I would really love to see this done for house and senate seats. I know it may be hard but it’s such a fruitful format.
This is SO good! Deeply controversial issues, debated about with intelligence, respect, and compassion. Great job, Vox!
If treatment is too far way, expensive, and inaccessible, does that not mean we should better those services?
We *should but governments DON'T. I appreciate how she said we shouldn't hold people hostage to society's failings
id love to see more conversations like this.. unfortunately so many videos in
this style end up doing more harm than good by letting misinformation spread due to their lack of checking and referencing the facts
@@elfrjz Or just talking over the other side
Every single time I watch one of these I really feel like I can see why each side believes what they believe.
Neither are irrational people like we tend to imagine with people who oppose us politically. And I think that's just amazing.
The cure to loneliness should not be death in a world so overpopulated...
This was an interesting debate and no one yelled at each other.
Loneliness doesn't necessarily come from the lack of people around you. You can be surrounded by close friends and family, and still be lonely.
@@madeline6951 their point still stands, i think
The world is not overpopulated.
Why does another adult get to control another adult or there decision I wish to sign up why do you get to tell me no I don’t know you are you a dictator or God you get to tell me no to maid or euthanasia ?
Did Vox just help restore the respectful form of debate?
I’d love to see more of these. Not only was this informative but it was entertaining throughout. Not to mention, the citation work is impeccable.
Imagina se o debate público fosse tão educado e civilizado como esse.
I share your dream for such a debate, but it will not happen without our incentive
8:00 "we can no longer keep individuals hostage to society's failings" - that really hits home... I disagree with voluntary assisted dying (what we call MAID in Australia), but that statement alone is powerfully convincing
The problem with this framing is it distances a person's responsibility to prevent "society's failings". You and I are society. We are responsible for society's failings, all of us are. Expanding MAID as a response to "society's failings" makes those failings less likely to be dealt with.
@@treyroy755then stop having children
There's no solution for the struggling citizens, no one wants to help, no one wants to accept someone's right to choose their life paths. When you say live and let live. You let people truly decide and stay out of their lives if you absolutely can't help them in a meaningful and long term way.
If people make choices and have the right mind to change his mind, no one stops them. Remember that fact people. There is no evidence of medical system forcing anyone. Most stories are people who are ignored by everyone else and usually their family members don't even know their loved one made their minds up in their privacy. But most people can't stand controlling others lives.
Basically yes
I wonder if what Dr Maher is hearing from his patients about it being ok to die due to MAID, is in fact where they are comfortable to talk about suicide without being worried about setting off red flags. Talking about dying and death is so very very difficult and yet life requires that we do.
This format is such a breath of fresh air on debate. Thank you.
My aunt did this. I had no idea she was suffering, but I’m glad she had the choice.
This is amazing! We need more of these debates, where people can smartly discuss facts with informed opinions without resorting to fallacies
Just FYI, you probably mean ‘resorting’ meaning taking a course of action (often out of desperation or lack of better of options) rather than ‘recurring’, which means something happening on multiple occasions.
Edit: you might also use ‘reverting’, which has a similar connotation
@@oldvlognewtricks both resorting and recurring are apt since incorrigible people exist and derail
@@ydid687 True, although you can’t use ‘recurring’ like that since it’s an intransitive verb.
@@oldvlognewtricks it is the internet, languages don't have hard and fast rules you must never disobey to begin with
better spend time being easy going on the internet coz pedantic people can up each other's games indefinitely here in the annals dear stranger
@elfrjz It’s from the French meaning ‘to visit again’ - re-sortir. The tactical use is from a later meaning of a resource or aid - as follows from the use of ‘resort’ to mean a place of rest and restoration.
This is one of the subjects that I’m very split on. On the one hand, it’s your life, do what you want. On the other hand, as someone who works within the mental health field, this kind of wide access could act like pandora’s box. Do we really want to live in a society where the state provides the tools to take your life because you have long-term depression?
what if they have tried everything? therapy, medicine, etc. then what? what if their daily lives are miserable?
@@--julian_ Like I said, I’m divided on the issue. But can you imagine a world were a therapist is like “hey, you’ve been coming here for 4 years and still report being depressed. Have you thought about “other” options?
This is exactly how I feel
Yes, what you're talking about is what I took away from the debate. In most MAID cases the option seems to be a good one, but perhaps in mental health cases there should be even more restrictions on resorting to it. Of course, properly funding mental health services and so many of the programs that can help improve mental health in society should be happening too. MAID should never be a tool to sweep away the people who are inconvenient to treat.
I would say the option should always be on the table, but you should work to make it the very last in most circumstances
I just looked up one fact. In Canada, which geographically is the largest country in the world, has roughly 1,800 hospitals. The United States has 3 times as many at 6,192 hospitals according to a basic Google search. In the US it breaks down to one hospital for every 53,500 people. In Canada, it's one hospital for every 21,000 people. Granted the US has a higher population than Canada. The question I'd like to ask is this. If a Canadian hospital is statistically responsible for 1/2 the people that a US hospital is responsible for, why is it so challenging to get care for the mentally ill and physically ill populous? I'm a disabled individual in the US. If I go to the ER because of an injury, they won't let me leave unless a loved one, a friend, or a social service is setup to help me care for my injury.
Civil, enlightening and important. I appreciated this and look forward to further entries in this series. Be good to one another ❤
🙌 Amazing…. Love this!!! Having been in the death care industry for a decade and living in the state within the United States that first passed physician assisted suicide…. I think there is a necessity for people to talk openly about death in general and make it less taboo.
It would be a sad, sad, sad decision but I think people should be free to make that decision.
I like that they aren't actively trying to debase eachothers arguements (as both are valid) and instead are sharing objective truth and opinions for each respective side so that the viewer can come to a conclusion of their own accord. Great format! Wish there were more "debates" like this.
This is inspired! I haven't seen anything like this in recent memory, and it's exactly what we need in every area of current events. Please make this a series!!
Nice to see two honest professionals discussing their actual positions rather than just trying to convince each other of what reality is
let's see if they blame the federal for the provincially handled slow but constant shift to privatization of healthcare, thus for profit. (Because yes, that's the real problem here)
@@elfrjz Partially, but also the act of privatization itself is technically not illegal, it's the funding of the privatization by the feds (just handing money to the provinces without strings) is in fact illegal in canada.
@@elfrjz They're not even hiding it anymore.
I can not believe how many extra things we have to pay for in Ontario, and just like the states, most insurance refuses to cover it.
@@caitthecat Brought to you by Doug Ford!
But hey, at least you saved a little on your driver license!
@@SinaebI didn't. I refuse to drive on our terrible roads 😤
We don't opt into this life, people should be given the option to opt out.
it's very simple: if a person suffers a lot and we cannot cure them, euthanasia should be an option (as long as they're legally clean and not in debt).
What I appreciate most about this debate is that it was not concentrated on the ethics of euthanasia _as a concept._ Both sides agreed that, in at least some cases, giving an individual the freedom to end his or her own life on his or her own terms is the moral thing to do. (In my view, it is those who insist that _all_ patients be kept alive for as long as possible -- even to the point of requiring life-support until the very end -- who are truly extreme.) Rather, the concern largely centered around whether those who only have mental disabilities should be permitted to access such care. Simply put, my own stance is that they should, but only after exhausting all possible alternatives. Even more difficult is the question of whether _involuntary_ euthanasia should be permitted (e.g. in the case of a patient who cannot provide informed consent, such as an elderly person with severe Alzheimer's who is terminally ill and evidently suffering).
My full position may be stated thus. Three conditions must be met: 1) The patient has to be in a state of misery (physical, mental, or psychological), 2) the patient must have been diagnosed with a terminal condition with a prognosis no longer than a couple of years (excluding those with mental/psychological disabilities), and 3) the patient must provide informed consent (void if the person is not mentally competent, incapacitated, or otherwise unable to make an informed choice). As for those who are not able to make such a decision for themselves, the input of a) all relevant evidence including written, oral, and electronic documentation that would indicate the person's preference in this situation, and b) close friends and family must be considered. a) takes precedence over b) if there is a discrepancy, and if a) doesn't apply, then b) and the opinions of at least two doctors must be in agreement with one another before proceeding. If the discrepancy persists, then conditions 1 and 2 are reconsidered and, should the result be that both prove highly applicable, the doctors' recommendation supersedes that of the family's and friends'. If not, and there is disagreement among these two groups, the patient is kept alive until such time as both conditions 1 and 2 are satisfied, or a consensus emerges.
Very well articulated, especially regarding those with dementia. I know firsthand that the suffering of these people can be immense.
The idea of an "advanced directive" (ie. requesting euthanasia in advance as a person with dementia) has been a topic of discussion in Canada the last few years. That area in particular seems to be very thorny with divided opinions.
Involuntary euthanasia is already allowed in more countries than the other kind, it’s only performed on babies and prisoners and unlike this, it’s actually celebrated. Funny how that works.
Do this again make it a series please omg this is exactly what we need Rn. Civilised debate. Yes.
It is a series!
mental health support "down the road a little bit" LOL It took years for me to get care while I was living in Toronto. A friend of mine had to be taken away in an ambulance to CAMH while waiting for care. It can be a very long road.
2 things can be true. Those with disabilities have a right to care and MAID. More funding is necessary so we can avoid (the very real) situations of disabled Torontonians choosing MAID because they can't find housing.
we need a livable basic income country-wide to provide a minimum quality of life for all
This was soooo well made. Every debate should be this intentional and thorough
The topic chosen, the format of debate, the high standards of production that Vox is rightly famous for - you people are setting such high standards for other channels out there. Thanks a lot for producing such content. Looking forward to more such debates, I hope Vox will make a series out of this.
it's amazing to see people who are coming to a debate with a perspective based on their professional experience but not with some ulterior motive. Both docs have an understandable perspective based on their area of expertise and their experiences with patients. Too many "debates" feel like they come from a place of bad faith
Both of these debates have been spectacular. Keep making these please!
I can’t describe how fascinating this video was to me. Well done to everyone taking part in this important production!
I love this style of debate. So much more productive and beneficial then what we are used to in life. Please keep doing these!
I have a lot of respect for these two professionals, the moderator, and the team that put this together and aporoved it. This is incredibly well done, and respectful to both sides and the audience in not belittling them. I would love more content just like this.
Please please please do more of this. It was so fascinating and really led me to question my own stances and nuanced views of this topic. I can only image the other topics delved into
Wow I want more of these debates. Thank you so much
This is an amazing concept! Please do more of this!
i really enjoyed this type of debate. i fully understand where both of the doctors are coming from and it so helpful to see their arguments laid out like this. I would love to see this type of debate format for other topics
MAID should be banned for mentally ill. When I had MDD, I would of 100% took MAID, but over 5-10 years, I got of my medication, went to the gym, married, have a child now and finished my degree. Sad to hear that this will be offered to people and they'll accept it. Disgusting to see this.
This. People who are mentally unstable aren't able to give informed consent... especially not when it's the most final decision someone can make.
I never understood why anyone other than a close relative felt they had the right to have a say in whether someone chooses to not be alive anymore. Much less the right to straight up forbid it.
You can say that again! People who reduce this to crumbling social services or to the lack of access to mental care fail to comprehend that *it's not up to them to approve of the reasons people choose to leave this world.* Full stop. End of.
@@trildi So you wouldn't have problem with for-profit companies administrating assisted suicides? After all, it would still, of course, be to each and every individuals choice.
@@8is Why companies? Most of the world has national insurance / social security funded healthcare. As a citizen paying into this system throughout your life, it would simply be some pills administered to you at a time of your choosing, plus some paperwork. All through the state's national healthcare system.
@@trildi Why not companies? Would you in any way have a problem with that?
@@8is With businesses you need more oversight and regulation to make sure financial goals and profits do not interfere with the ethics of providing this service. That's all. Within a national healthcare system you'd have no pressure or immoral sales tactics that are dictated by the revenue targets of a private business.
This needs to be a series!!
I am in awe of how well this was set up, and that Vox decided to go to the experts. Really looking forward to future debate videos like this!
Fantastic debate format. Please continue making these types of debates!
I loved the first one you did like this, and I love this one. Please keep them coming! It's an absolutely brilliant idea which could and should change the way we engage with complicated issues
This is what a real debate is and it’s amazing how civil both of them are in such a serious talk with entirely opposite viewpoints and even manage to find some common grounds (eg. opposing paternalism)
This is really incredible content, thank you for producing it.
I don't think this is an ethical issue or moral issue. If someone does not want to be here, who are we to tell them to stay? Everyone has a right to do what they want with their life. In a way, this is more dignifying.
This is genuinely an amazing format. Keep this up, please.