July 2019 UPDATE: To read about the resolution of Stinson's lawsuit, read this article from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel: www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2019/07/11/milwaukee-pay-7-5-million-wrongfully-convicted-man/1673834001/
Could you please give an in depth look at the difference between cartoon opening themes and Japanese anime themes? It may not be your thing but I long for that. I love to hear your analysis, Thank You.
thats a much better payout "We don't want to be that kind of system, we don't want to be the type of system that's hellbent on locking people up as opposed to receiving and administering justice."
@@makishepard Uh.... you know you are replying to a comment about a man who was put in jail for 23 years based on false evidence? It seems a little inappropriate and insensitive to ask about animation openings given the seriousness of the topic. It might be better to ask for that somewhere else...
Absolutely absurd. To give a man 115k for 23 YEARS of the most integral point in a persons life ripped away from them. That should be the amount he gets per year he was wrongfully convicted. Not being able to see your loved ones passing or spend time growing yourself as a person, 20 is when you BEGIN life basically. Thanks so much vox for this amazing video, it's amazing quality
I'm kind of shocked it was anything under a few million, but 115k is abysmal. This man should be set for the rest of his life due to what the US government did to him...
lol this is the government we are talking about. He was lucky to get as much as he did, since most people, who get their convictions over turned, just get an apology. All that being said, probably the most logical way to calculate a monetary recompense for such an individual would be to take the average income from each year he was locked up and add it all together.
So the actual murderer deserves no sympathy, but I love how at the end they try to act like he’s the one who locked up an innocent man. Criminals aren’t responsible for the misdeeds of the justice system, and pawning off blame onto him rather than owning the problems created by our system and the people involved in that prosecution is so irresponsible. That man I guilty of killing a woman, he is not guilty of locking up an innocent man for 18 years. THAT is a crime committed by our justice system.
Doesn't give these years back, but at least that sounds like an amount that'll allow him to pay of any lingering legal debts and live out his life comfortably. Without the need for a job or such (which would be difficult after having his whole early-adulthood taken from him)
Update on Robert Stinson: "Robert Lee Stinson, 54, agreed to settle his claims against the city and one of its former police detectives for an initial payment of $3.5 million in August and $4 million in January, the resolution states" He settled the case with $7.5 Million
@Zach Arbogast conversely, one could argue that not costing something is the definition of free. And by that definition, @moses has arguably the more accurate answer
I was just listening to this until the end when I started watching. I was thinking "how could they send Stinson to jail on that flimsy evidence?" Then I saw what he looked like and I thought, "yeah, that explains a lot"
You are right! I was listening to this documentary while I was busy cooking. I broke down crying at the injustice. So I went to watch the video and the wrongly convicted person - "ah no wonder" - and it all made sense how quick they were to convict him. Tragic and sad all the same though.
Just imagine spending 2 whole decades behind bars, accused of some absolute jibber jabber mumbo jumbo nonsense youve never even heard of, getting exonerated at last but getting no other formal compensation than 115k. That is just so enraging it boils my blood
@@AndMaida yeah qnd I think she is sorry when she said she is grateful there is no death penalty. Because she might have convicted him with death penalty, with the wrong evidence.
So are we not gonna acknowledge that Dr. Johnson’s doggedness in getting Stinson committed and general incompetence could’ve been plain and simple racism
After the lawsuit in 2019, he was paid $7.5 million in compensation by Milwaukee. I'm glad he got what he was owed, but I am still saddened by the fact that he will never get all those years of his life back.
Whoa, I'm not used to this kind of video. 30 minutes! It is awesome to see that you can make these kinds of videos. I can only offer my encouragement and appreciation. I hope you continue to grow in the future. Best of luck.
"I felt bad"? Really, Judge Geske? That's all you have to say? How about: "I felt absolutely gutted that a young man was wrongfully imprisoned for so long, under my jurisdiction." I cannot even begin to fathom how incredibly insincere and unremorseful Judge Janine Geske was in delivering her remark during this interview. Revolting.
No based on the science of the time. Those teeth look like a perfect match to me. Without DNA I agree with the conviction as well. Those are the best tools of that time. If he didn't go to jail than many guilty ppl would have been walking too
Y’all are missing my point. I’m asking if it is possible that juries are being influenced about whether or not experts are entirely correct today? I’m not saying they shouldn’t be trusted, or that they should perfect. Don’t get mad at a question. It is entirely plausible, and it’s been proven, that public opinion is influenced by these shows to make them think forensic science is absolute and easy.
josuu guillen I don’t think the judge was wrong in her previous judgement. She was just following rules, and as mentioned in the video, she was going by previous rulings. Yes, she wasn’t proactive in asking for studies backing the evidence but her ruling wasn’t unjust by the book.
@@aranciniballs I don't think you can really call it not unjust when a member of the judicial team (let alone the judge) doesn't go out of their way to ensure that the person being convicted is the one that is actually guilty.
If we want those studies done, we'd have to fund them and the crime labs participating. We don't. Hell, most states haven't even tested their decades' long backlog of rape kits. Many are now in the process of doing so, but some states have over 10,000 kits to test. That's +10,000 victims who went through the invasive rape kit procedure, only to never even have the kit tested. Some of those victims were children. www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/where-backlog-exists-and-whats-happening-end-it Reality is, we're in a political climate where one party wants to cut funding for almost everything and the other party is fighting to prevent it. So things like this fall through the cracks. Most states rely on federal funding for a big portion of their budget. So it makes it very difficult to have a discussion about anything of importance, whether it's forensic science studies, rape kit backlog, or aging infrastructure when the legislative branch is so totally and completely at odds with each other.
There's a lot of infuriating things about this story, but I think what infuriates me the most is that he wrote to the Innocence Project in 2003, but still wasn't released until 2009.
The system takes its sweet time with these things, and I'm sure there were plenty of bureaucratic hurdles that his team had to jump over. It's one of those "disappointed but not surprised" situations.
The compilation that showed all those points in history all while Robert Lee Stinson sat behind bars really should make it sink in. What an amazing way to succinctly convey how much was taken from Robert.
Those "dental experts" were not partial, their mistake was assume that they could not be wrong. When the other experts told them that they disagree, they should have reevaluated what they did to see if they could have made a mistake
I disagree, they had a lot to gain by standing by their analysis. It was a landmark case, and therefore their analysis was a case of prestige for them. Not to mention, the video says later on the govt granted the main dentist dude money for research, likely at least partially as a result of his involvement with judgements like thesen
When I was a kid I used to watch Forensic Files and was amazed at the forensic science that was used to catch the killer. One by one those forensic methods are being debunked. I just wonder how many more will be debunked in the future.
@@unpocoloco460 Huh?? I'm confused and I's late so I'm not going to rewatch right now. But what I get from this is that dental forensics was debunked? since that's what I said.
I love how at the end when questioning Moses the investigator is acting like it was Moses’ fault that Stinson was wrongfully convicted 🙄. Why is there no accountability for getting this wrong? Why is so little value placed on people freedom?
THANK YOU!! I was looking through comments to see if anyone else thoughts about how wrong this was and finally found yours. They really in denial of their wrong doings and couldn’t accept there lack of intelligence over their professional stance therefore guilt tripping the guy who didn’t even know someone was charged. Obviously he was in the wrong too but that is an embarrassing move on their behalf to further guilt trip the real murderer who in the end didn’t even agree with confessions.
That judge should have know better from the beginning... starting with the sketch of the teeth and where the tooth was actually missing from. Good for him on never giving up
That’s not the role of judge. One of the points of the video is that it is not just one person or place that allowed this to happen. It’s the institutional system that needs to be reformed so that any other judge in their place would not lead to same conclusion/decision as the one in this case.
@@vathanadianna7213 i would be willing to give her a pass, but she never asked for the original sketch. That is inexcusable. It was the one piece of the forensic dental 'evidence' made before the dental 'expert' met Stinson. All of those molds and overlays would be tainted bc he made them after his dental exam.
So, the state pays over $700,000 for the dentist (who used and stood by faulty science) to test his own theories (no bias there, I'm sure), and he showed he had roughly the accuracy rate of a TV psychic... But they offered a measely $115,000 to someone whose life they basically ruined, someone they wrongfully imprisoned for decades. Detestable! I hope he sues and gets millions. He should. What they did was past wrong, and, if they are negligent in testing the validity of evidence used in their courtrooms, then they deserve to be held responcible for wrongful convictions made as a result of the court's negligence.
We really need more rigorous requirements when it comes to "experts" claiming that they do "science". Experts are people, and people are egotistical morons (a species trait we need be more open about and accept). Experts need to prove their position to critical peers before being accepted as scientifically accurate; that error rate test sounds good. It's absurd that PAID legislators pursuing justice for the citizenship just let that slide as, "oh, its too much work", or "its not needed".
@@sd-ch2cq agreed. and private interest like corporations OR private interest funded organizations are NOT allowed to present any of their testing as proof of anything, until it's multiple confirmed by PUBLIC funded scientific organizations.
@@sd-ch2cq I'm a grad student studying biomedical forensic science, so hopefully I can pull back the curtain a bit and explain what scientific standards forensic experts are subject to during trial. Look up the Daubert standards and the federal rules of evidence. These things are already part of federal and state law, and expert witnesses have to prove their competency and the reliability of their science through a legal process called voir dire. One of the issues with the process is that judges ultimately decide what testimony can be admitted at trial, often without having a scientific background. Another issue is that technology advances so rapidly it can be difficult to determine a known error rate and qa/qc standards for their operation. There's also no minimum standard for how much peer review is enough peer review. As a result, not all judges will interpret and apply the Daubert standards in the exact same way. And that's without even getting into the necessary but often extremely confrontational nature of cross examination and avoiding an "us vs. them" mentality. It's sometimes very hard to remember that you're not the one on trial. We all do our best, but sometimes bad science and false confidence leads to situations like this.
Being a judge is not a joke it's a big responsibility and one big mistake can lead to a innocent human to suffer his entire life and that burden will be on you your entire life and afterlife
It wasnt a mistake given the tools they had at the time. I would agree with the conviction as well if DNA wasnt available. I would be technically wrong to but thats the best tools they had at the time. The judge and jury made the right choice at the time. If he didn't serve, many guilty men would be walking around free too
@@dandan6778 "but one judge should never decide in one's favour without listening to the other " it's the key aspect when giving a rightful order. if he was saying he didn't do it you should take his saying in analysis and ask for further proof and not just deciding on the unrelible source of proof you have
@@abdullah_carart5638 that was the most reliable evidence at the time and its honestly compelling evidence without the DNA and confession coming years later. They all made the right choice based on the evidence they had. "Hes saying hes innocent so we need to look into it more" has to be the least compelling argument ever. Most criminals dont plead guilty, they plead innocent. That holds zero value lol
@@dandan6778 No they didn’t make the right choice even for the time. Even then there was absolutely no evidence that forensic odontology was a legit field and thus in any rational justice system wouldn’t have been allowed until a proper error rate study had been conducted. It being a different time doesn’t excuse negligence on the part of the judge, the prosecutors, and defiantly not the forensic odontologists.
@@dandan6778 IT WASN’T HONESTLY COMPELLING!!! There was no evidence that it worked. It was just superstition. That’s like saying “while the psychic said he did it and that’s compelling evidence to me” because that has just as much evidence as that being true as there is for forensic odontology. The legal system needs to follow science and be guided by it, not create their own weird and false understanding of “forensic science” and calling this anything other than negligence on behalf of the criminal justice system as a whole is woefully misinformed.
i think the real question, from a science perspective, that should have been asked at the very beginning was, 'how many other mouths could have made bites that created those marks?' Those dentists were very irresponsible for not asking that... it was so obvious they should have tested other bites, not just his.
Exactely!! The basis of good science lays in falsification, but it took them decades to ever getting around to actually test different teeth against bite-marks
Karen said about a young black man on trail for a murder he didn't commit, that "There's no evil intent anywhere in the circle. Sometimes it's taking the easy way out." She meant at the expense of young black and brown men. Also, Moses didn't fail Robert Lee Stimson, that judge did, so did the expert dentists, etc.
I disagree. That dirtbag killed a woman and an innocent man spent the best years of his life rotting in jail. It's absolutely despicable and Moses should feel ashamed. It's his fault.
Sam Warren It’s not Moses’ fault that Stinson was falsely accused, but rather the dentists who didn’t research their evidence. Sure, he himself is definitely not innocent, but it isn’t his fault that what happened to the innocent person so he shouldn’t be blamed for that too
"I'm just grateful we don't have a death penalty." Exactly. This is exactly why the death penalty needs to be abolished. More people have been (and continue to be) wrongfully convicted than we think, the idea that some of them could be victims of government-sanctioned murder is unthinkable.
this was in 1984, forensic science has gone a long way. You'd be a "suspect" for finding it but it would be cleared quickly after fingerprints, DNA etc Just whatever you do, don't lie
Wanted to point out that there is an episode of Criminal about this, called The Sailor's Teeth. One of the studies mentioned briefly in this video was done by Adam J. Freeman. He was a forensic odontologist who eventually began to have doubts about the accuracy of the science, and his study revealed a shockingly high rate of error. He no longer evaluates bite marks and advocates for courts not to take bite marks into consideration. Chris Fabricant, who works with the Innocence Project and also appears in this video, was featured on the episode as well.
Wow Vox, thank you for this, amazingly well put together piece. Probably everyone's biggest fear, that you could get convicted and sentenced for a crime you did not commit, almost made me cry this story. Thank you and keep them coming please. I'm from South Africa.
Creepy part about this trial and others like it, if there was a death penalty, no one in the court system would be jailed for sending an innocent man to death.
This happens everyday. Maybe not the exact same situation but the same plot. It is absolutely disgusting. Most times they make the “suspect” plead guilty for a plea deal, or be prosecuted to the “fullest extent of the law.” It is unDemocratic, nauseating, and heartbreaking. Unfortunately I have had first hand experience with this…. And it never goes away. Good luck getting a job after being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just being Charged is enough to ruin anyones life. We need to stand up for reforms.
These dentists should be held up forever as an example of failed scientists. Not because they tought that bitemark-evidence was real, but because they were too cocky to test their own assumptions (saying in court that this is a proven science, backing up a colleague without even looking at the evidence)
Wow this series was jawdropping. The judicial system is so baffling and that Dental Expert was out of his mind. why did everyone just so blindly trust him? this story was told so well I felt truly moved
What an absolutely vexing and horrifying story. Thank you so much for bringing this to light, and for the absolutely fantastic production quality. These stories deserve such resources.
@@datenschutz6123 You realize that calling for a massacre of Vox employees makes you and conservatism as a whole look really bad, right? Also, watch out Vox. This poster just called for violence against you guys. I've reported the comment.
I discovered this station...CZcams video...Vox just yesterday and I can't stop watching. I rarely click on unknown stations...videos...whatever they're called because it's so obvious what the creators' objective is. But I have learned so much in the last 2 days and I am so grateful for that because education, knowledge, and information is so crucial to humankind's future.
If your forensic “science” requires heavily subjective judgement calls you should be forced to put your life on the line as collateral. Give them incentive to get it right or find an actually scientific method.
That's horrible. They can take their $115,000 and stuff it!!! He deserves millions because he didn't deserve to be arrested, tried, convicted, and imprisoned for years for something he didn't do. And the money should be taken from those "forensic" "experts" who lied!!!
From the National Registry of Exonerations: “He received $25,000 from the state of Wisconsin (the maximum allowed under the Wisconsin compensation law) and the state legislature approved a special bill that awarded him an additional $90,000 in 2014. He also filed a federal civil rights lawsuit that was dismissed in 2015. The lawsuit was reinstated in 2017 by the 7th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals. The city of Milwaukee settled the case in July 2019 for $7.5 million.“ He went in a boy and came out a man after spending all those developmental years in the company of criminals. That he survived morally is evidence of a strong character evolving out of duress. I suspect family support had a hand in that…and, of course, not all convicted criminals are evil.
Jesus. How could this 'professional' be willing to convict someone without double checking? When peoples lives are at risk, you should at least double check "Measure twice, cut once" can apply to so many things in life
Vox, thank you for reporting on such an important story. I cannot appreciate your work enough and I just want to ask if you could work with your heads and be fair to the channels that criticize you. I will not stop watching you in protest but this does make me feel vary as it is slightly harder to trust people that are unfair to and are copyright striking other smaller channels that criticize you, I hope this message helps but sadly who cares what an Indian college student thinks so I don't think it will 😅
I scrolled down to the comments hoping to read more about this heartbreaking case, but all I get are rants about copyright strikes. My guys, the people making these videos aren't the ones making copyright strike claims. You might as well be yelling at Genius Bar employees because your iPhone's battery died. This is not mature, constructive behavior. (But this is the internet, I don't know why I would expect that lol)
No human system is perfect. And here, because there was little apparent concern for accuracy or reliability, an entirely innocent man spent 23 years in jail. What outrages is the State of Wisconsin recusing it’s obligation to properly compensate this victim of its blunders. Disgusting.
Judges are very judgemental. How ironic. They hear what you are accused of, see you, then make an automatic judgment on whether they think you could be guilty. They are human which means they go off of experience and life.
Prob my number one biggest fear is going to jail for something a didn't do! The thought of spending 10-20 years - life in prison because of bunk forensic science! The amount people in jail currently for this reason too! Uhg just stirs up so many emotions in me! Should create a whole new department (not cold case investigators) that re-examine peoples files who have been put away because of what is poven to be bunk science/forensics !!!! Drug test are just as bad tho! Labs coming up with positives for illegal drugs for other labs to determine its a false positive. So many kids taken away from their parent(s) because of this! *SIGH*
check the story of Adnan Sayed and the victim Hae Min lee. He got convicted of her murder when he was just 18 and got released when he became 41.....after 23 years.. he even had an alibi to prove he wasn't at the scene of the crime and they had no good evidence to prove it was him.
Does the real killer have, as the forensic dentist declared of the suspect, "an abnormality of the upper teeth"? I realize that the whole point of this documentary is the fallibility/unreliability of forensic odontology, but I'm super curious about what Mose Price Jr's teeth look like.
This is the main reason I'm against the death penalty. Thankfully Wisconsin doesn't have a death penalty because they would have sentenced an innocent person till death. If even 1 innocent person is put to death by the state, then it has no place in society. If it could happen to him, it could happen to anyone, even you.
I cried so hard at the scene where he was released from prison. I was so happy for him yet so sad for the fact. This Man lost his most important years in his life. That he will never get back. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I was one of the people who convicted him as guilty. How could ever give back what you taken from him. They say there is no evil intent but there was. The simple fact. The evidence was false positive. Should be enough to put away every person involved in convicting this Man. Yes people make mistakes and this is a perfect example of one. You can't fix what you did to this Man in anyway besides being held accountable for it. To show others in the future if you make a wrongful conviction. You will be trialed and sentence for it. The fact this is not happening and the judge and dentist are not in prison right now is pure evil and heartless with no actual care what has happened to this Man. It's straight Evil.
July 2019 UPDATE: To read about the resolution of Stinson's lawsuit, read this article from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel: www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2019/07/11/milwaukee-pay-7-5-million-wrongfully-convicted-man/1673834001/
Could you please give an in depth look at the difference between cartoon opening themes and Japanese anime themes? It may not be your thing but I long for that. I love to hear your analysis, Thank You.
thats a much better payout "We don't want to be that kind of system, we don't want to be the type of system that's hellbent on locking people up as opposed to receiving and administering justice."
@@makishepard Uh.... you know you are replying to a comment about a man who was put in jail for 23 years based on false evidence? It seems a little inappropriate and insensitive to ask about animation openings given the seriousness of the topic. It might be better to ask for that somewhere else...
@@my4trackmachine it was a suggestion for another topic, I mean no disrespect.
Even 7.5 million is not enough!! I do hope that at least this man can live comfortably from now on. This is so sad. What a miscarriage of justice!
Absolutely absurd. To give a man 115k for 23 YEARS of the most integral point in a persons life ripped away from them. That should be the amount he gets per year he was wrongfully convicted. Not being able to see your loved ones passing or spend time growing yourself as a person, 20 is when you BEGIN life basically. Thanks so much vox for this amazing video, it's amazing quality
Yes... just yes. The system is completely fucke dup
I'm kind of shocked it was anything under a few million, but 115k is abysmal. This man should be set for the rest of his life due to what the US government did to him...
So much innocent until proven guilty
He deserves a house, a nice car and 1 million for lost wages and memories
lol this is the government we are talking about. He was lucky to get as much as he did, since most people, who get their convictions over turned, just get an apology. All that being said, probably the most logical way to calculate a monetary recompense for such an individual would be to take the average income from each year he was locked up and add it all together.
So the actual murderer deserves no sympathy, but I love how at the end they try to act like he’s the one who locked up an innocent man. Criminals aren’t responsible for the misdeeds of the justice system, and pawning off blame onto him rather than owning the problems created by our system and the people involved in that prosecution is so irresponsible.
That man I guilty of killing a woman, he is not guilty of locking up an innocent man for 18 years. THAT is a crime committed by our justice system.
Exactly how i saw it !
agree
+
You took the words right out of my mind.
agree
Stinson won the case in 2019 and was awarded 7.5 million dollars by Milwaukee
Thank you i was searching for this comment
And what happened to those two dentists??? They should be in jail
Doesn't give these years back, but at least that sounds like an amount that'll allow him to pay of any lingering legal debts and live out his life comfortably. Without the need for a job or such (which would be difficult after having his whole early-adulthood taken from him)
Now that’s Justice.
@@sd-ch2cq He should not need to pay any legal debts as he was seriously wronged by the justice system.
Wow, where the actual murderer is sorry...but not the dentist and prosecutors who put false evidence in front of the judge in the first place! wow...
Right?
Disturbing when a monster like that is more moral than the representatives of the people.
@@datenschutz6123 ??? Aber sonst alles okay mit dir oder ?
Daten Schutz go back to the loony bin
Yeah...The dentist and prosecutors should say sorry or even in jail... I'm in tears for Robert.
I admire vox’s editing team. Good thing it doesn’t require CZcams Premium.
Ch1ll1ad D. You just gave CZcams an idea
@@Thefuryspeed100 Well youtube red is already there.
Ohhh please don't suggest that dude
So true
They do now 🤣🤣
The actual murderer is more sorry than the "experts", kind of remarkable.
Where did u get that lil cat in a box emoji???
@@kiing.diimon4984 Ikr
@@kiing.diimon4984 I want to know too
@@kiing.diimon4984 Uuh.. CZcams?
They were happy to have an innocent man locked up, because he is black.
Update on Robert Stinson:
"Robert Lee Stinson, 54, agreed to settle his claims against the city and one of its former police detectives for an initial payment of $3.5 million in August and $4 million in January, the resolution states"
He settled the case with $7.5 Million
☺😀Thank god
I wouldn't trade 24 of the best years of my life for $7.5 million.
That man was robbed of his life by charlatan dentists and a lazy justice system.
@@evilbred974 I would lol
@@evilbred974 you are 13 you dont know that life cant be compensated for.
I bet it would've been more if he was white... sigh
How is it possible such a high quality video is free on CZcams? Just insane.
It isn't really free when your data and ads are sold on youtube mate, so again what exactly is free?
@Zach Arbogast conversely, one could argue that not costing something is the definition of free. And by that definition, @moses has arguably the more accurate answer
Actually, nothing is free.
CZcams are paying them.
@@ArtOfficialKreations Smart.
I was just listening to this until the end when I started watching. I was thinking "how could they send Stinson to jail on that flimsy evidence?" Then I saw what he looked like and I thought, "yeah, that explains a lot"
The justice system isn't broken. It is working perfect based on how it was designed.
Exactly! This is exhausting
I had the exact same experience. How could they blame a 20 year old with no criminal record? And then I saw him
@@orangeants He do have a record, but it's just shoplifting.
You are right! I was listening to this documentary while I was busy cooking. I broke down crying at the injustice. So I went to watch the video and the wrongly convicted person - "ah no wonder" - and it all made sense how quick they were to convict him. Tragic and sad all the same though.
Just imagine spending 2 whole decades behind bars, accused of some absolute jibber jabber mumbo jumbo nonsense youve never even heard of, getting exonerated at last but getting no other formal compensation than 115k. That is just so enraging it boils my blood
Why can I clearly tell that the judge that convicted him does not feel bad for her actions..
She doesn't feel she made the wrong decision based on the evidence shes had at the time and I agree. Those teeth prints look just like a match to me
Actually...that's what a judge's nature need be....isn't it??
I think she doesn't take moral responsibility by thinking "the laws at the time were on my side". it is understandable but still sad
The judge does not convict anybody it’s the Jury who makes the decisions!
Her role is different and can’t be blamed for the decision
@@AndMaida yeah qnd I think she is sorry when she said she is grateful there is no death penalty. Because she might have convicted him with death penalty, with the wrong evidence.
So are we not gonna acknowledge that Dr. Johnson’s doggedness in getting Stinson committed and general incompetence could’ve been plain and simple racism
After the lawsuit in 2019, he was paid $7.5 million in compensation by Milwaukee. I'm glad he got what he was owed, but I am still saddened by the fact that he will never get all those years of his life back.
Whoa, I'm not used to this kind of video. 30 minutes! It is awesome to see that you can make these kinds of videos. I can only offer my encouragement and appreciation. I hope you continue to grow in the future. Best of luck.
"I felt bad"? Really, Judge Geske? That's all you have to say? How about: "I felt absolutely gutted that a young man was wrongfully imprisoned for so long, under my jurisdiction." I cannot even begin to fathom how incredibly insincere and unremorseful Judge Janine Geske was in delivering her remark during this interview. Revolting.
so scary to think that bad science can change the outcome of somebody's life so drastically..
Do y'all think the CSI and other forensic science shows might be giving these "experts" way more credibility in real life than they deserve?
No based on the science of the time. Those teeth look like a perfect match to me. Without DNA I agree with the conviction as well. Those are the best tools of that time. If he didn't go to jail than many guilty ppl would have been walking too
Y’all are missing my point. I’m asking if it is possible that juries are being influenced about whether or not experts are entirely correct today? I’m not saying they shouldn’t be trusted, or that they should perfect. Don’t get mad at a question. It is entirely plausible, and it’s been proven, that public opinion is influenced by these shows to make them think forensic science is absolute and easy.
What you’re referring to is called the CSI Effect and yes, it is a real issue.
Dan Dan
No they don’t lmao
Problem with their science is don't including that fact need data to proved. We all know that it can not be prefect and yet. USA system make them law.
“I’m just grateful that we don’t have a death penalty” smh. if only the studies were done.
josuu guillen I don’t think the judge was wrong in her previous judgement. She was just following rules, and as mentioned in the video, she was going by previous rulings. Yes, she wasn’t proactive in asking for studies backing the evidence but her ruling wasn’t unjust by the book.
@@aranciniballs I don't think you can really call it not unjust when a member of the judicial team (let alone the judge) doesn't go out of their way to ensure that the person being convicted is the one that is actually guilty.
If we want those studies done, we'd have to fund them and the crime labs participating. We don't. Hell, most states haven't even tested their decades' long backlog of rape kits. Many are now in the process of doing so, but some states have over 10,000 kits to test. That's +10,000 victims who went through the invasive rape kit procedure, only to never even have the kit tested. Some of those victims were children.
www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/where-backlog-exists-and-whats-happening-end-it
Reality is, we're in a political climate where one party wants to cut funding for almost everything and the other party is fighting to prevent it. So things like this fall through the cracks. Most states rely on federal funding for a big portion of their budget. So it makes it very difficult to have a discussion about anything of importance, whether it's forensic science studies, rape kit backlog, or aging infrastructure when the legislative branch is so totally and completely at odds with each other.
She's full of Sh!+
@@aranciniballs Whatever helps her sleep at night.
There's a lot of infuriating things about this story, but I think what infuriates me the most is that he wrote to the Innocence Project in 2003, but still wasn't released until 2009.
The system takes its sweet time with these things, and I'm sure there were plenty of bureaucratic hurdles that his team had to jump over. It's one of those "disappointed but not surprised" situations.
I don't think that's the real issue here.
Vox content is something we need but dont deserve . This is way too good ! Keep up the good work
@@madladspades wayyyy better
Foreskin Science?
The same Vox that copyright strikes CZcamsrs who make fun of their inability to assemble a computer properly? Vox is a joke at this point.
vox is something that needs to vanish. They are greedy bastards that are striking channels down.
Vox are a bunch of hacks, who were caught red-handed trying to abuse the copyright strike system in order to silence people.
Wow, that judge did even feel bad. She had the nerve to say it was the only mistake she ever made, with a smile on her face.
I’m sure that’s not her only mistake.
@@rashidpaykargar8628 like being born
Judges make decisions based on evidence put before them...the mistake here was by the expert
The compilation that showed all those points in history all while Robert Lee Stinson sat behind bars really should make it sink in.
What an amazing way to succinctly convey how much was taken from Robert.
Those "dental experts" were not partial, their mistake was assume that they could not be wrong. When the other experts told them that they disagree, they should have reevaluated what they did to see if they could have made a mistake
I disagree, they had a lot to gain by standing by their analysis. It was a landmark case, and therefore their analysis was a case of prestige for them. Not to mention, the video says later on the govt granted the main dentist dude money for research, likely at least partially as a result of his involvement with judgements like thesen
It's simply not a science. Every scientist must always be sceptical of everything
Arrogant vain "experts"
When I was a kid I used to watch Forensic Files and was amazed at the forensic science that was used to catch the killer. One by one those forensic methods are being debunked.
I just wonder how many more will be debunked in the future.
Oh yeah.. name me a single forensic method that was debunked?
@@dinsel9691 Did you not watch this? Dental forensics.
@@unpocoloco460 Huh?? I'm confused and I's late so I'm not going to rewatch right now. But what I get from this is that dental forensics was debunked? since that's what I said.
@@unpocoloco460 Yeah i rewatched it and you just agreed with me. Did you not read what I said before replying?
@@unpocoloco460 This literally states how dental forensics was debunked and nonreliable.
Now in a new bingeworthy format! I hope you guys do more videos like this soon. Great job Joss and crew.
Nate and Noah Try Life
Wow, no commentary on the content?
I love how at the end when questioning Moses the investigator is acting like it was Moses’ fault that Stinson was wrongfully convicted 🙄. Why is there no accountability for getting this wrong? Why is so little value placed on people freedom?
THANK YOU!! I was looking through comments to see if anyone else thoughts about how wrong this was and finally found yours. They really in denial of their wrong doings and couldn’t accept there lack of intelligence over their professional stance therefore guilt tripping the guy who didn’t even know someone was charged. Obviously he was in the wrong too but that is an embarrassing move on their behalf to further guilt trip the real murderer who in the end didn’t even agree with confessions.
That judge should have know better from the beginning... starting with the sketch of the teeth and where the tooth was actually missing from. Good for him on never giving up
That’s not the role of judge. One of the points of the video is that it is not just one person or place that allowed this to happen. It’s the institutional system that needs to be reformed so that any other judge in their place would not lead to same conclusion/decision as the one in this case.
@@vathanadianna7213 i would be willing to give her a pass, but she never asked for the original sketch. That is inexcusable.
It was the one piece of the forensic dental 'evidence' made before the dental 'expert' met Stinson. All of those molds and overlays would be tainted bc he made them after his dental exam.
@@mechengr1731 because it is not her job had he a good lawyer defending him he could have asked for that piece and show how much ridicules that was
She is not expert there is no way she would have known
So, the state pays over $700,000 for the dentist (who used and stood by faulty science) to test his own theories (no bias there, I'm sure), and he showed he had roughly the accuracy rate of a TV psychic... But they offered a measely $115,000 to someone whose life they basically ruined, someone they wrongfully imprisoned for decades. Detestable! I hope he sues and gets millions. He should. What they did was past wrong, and, if they are negligent in testing the validity of evidence used in their courtrooms, then they deserve to be held responcible for wrongful convictions made as a result of the court's negligence.
He lost over 2 DECADES of his life. Absolutely horrifying. That poor man.
We really need more rigorous requirements when it comes to "experts" claiming that they do "science". Experts are people, and people are egotistical morons (a species trait we need be more open about and accept). Experts need to prove their position to critical peers before being accepted as scientifically accurate; that error rate test sounds good. It's absurd that PAID legislators pursuing justice for the citizenship just let that slide as, "oh, its too much work", or "its not needed".
This should be added to the law: only *tested* science in the courtroom.
@@sd-ch2cq agreed. and private interest like corporations OR private interest funded organizations are NOT allowed to present any of their testing as proof of anything, until it's multiple confirmed by PUBLIC funded scientific organizations.
We forget that braces exist making bites almost the smae
@@sd-ch2cq I'm a grad student studying biomedical forensic science, so hopefully I can pull back the curtain a bit and explain what scientific standards forensic experts are subject to during trial. Look up the Daubert standards and the federal rules of evidence. These things are already part of federal and state law, and expert witnesses have to prove their competency and the reliability of their science through a legal process called voir dire. One of the issues with the process is that judges ultimately decide what testimony can be admitted at trial, often without having a scientific background. Another issue is that technology advances so rapidly it can be difficult to determine a known error rate and qa/qc standards for their operation. There's also no minimum standard for how much peer review is enough peer review. As a result, not all judges will interpret and apply the Daubert standards in the exact same way. And that's without even getting into the necessary but often extremely confrontational nature of cross examination and avoiding an "us vs. them" mentality. It's sometimes very hard to remember that you're not the one on trial. We all do our best, but sometimes bad science and false confidence leads to situations like this.
As a student forensic scientist, I absolutely despise the term ‘to a reasonable scientific certainty’. 100% against it. 🤦♀️
Being a judge is not a joke it's a big responsibility and one big mistake can lead to a innocent human to suffer his entire life and that burden will be on you your entire life and afterlife
It wasnt a mistake given the tools they had at the time. I would agree with the conviction as well if DNA wasnt available. I would be technically wrong to but thats the best tools they had at the time. The judge and jury made the right choice at the time. If he didn't serve, many guilty men would be walking around free too
@@dandan6778 "but one judge should never decide in one's favour without listening to the other " it's the key aspect when giving a rightful order. if he was saying he didn't do it you should take his saying in analysis and ask for further proof and not just deciding on the unrelible source of proof you have
@@abdullah_carart5638 that was the most reliable evidence at the time and its honestly compelling evidence without the DNA and confession coming years later. They all made the right choice based on the evidence they had. "Hes saying hes innocent so we need to look into it more" has to be the least compelling argument ever. Most criminals dont plead guilty, they plead innocent. That holds zero value lol
@@dandan6778 No they didn’t make the right choice even for the time. Even then there was absolutely no evidence that forensic odontology was a legit field and thus in any rational justice system wouldn’t have been allowed until a proper error rate study had been conducted. It being a different time doesn’t excuse negligence on the part of the judge, the prosecutors, and defiantly not the forensic odontologists.
@@dandan6778 IT WASN’T HONESTLY COMPELLING!!! There was no evidence that it worked. It was just superstition. That’s like saying “while the psychic said he did it and that’s compelling evidence to me” because that has just as much evidence as that being true as there is for forensic odontology. The legal system needs to follow science and be guided by it, not create their own weird and false understanding of “forensic science” and calling this anything other than negligence on behalf of the criminal justice system as a whole is woefully misinformed.
i think the real question, from a science perspective, that should have been asked at the very beginning was, 'how many other mouths could have made bites that created those marks?' Those dentists were very irresponsible for not asking that... it was so obvious they should have tested other bites, not just his.
Exactely!!
The basis of good science lays in falsification, but it took them decades to ever getting around to actually test different teeth against bite-marks
9 years of procedural delays? Didnt take that long to convict him so i guess their all trying to cover their arses 🤔
Karen said about a young black man on trail for a murder he didn't commit, that "There's no evil intent anywhere in the circle. Sometimes it's taking the easy way out." She meant at the expense of young black and brown men. Also, Moses didn't fail Robert Lee Stimson, that judge did, so did the expert dentists, etc.
The only person who failed him was the expert
As if it's the job of the person who actually committed the crime to exonerate an innocent man. Our justice system is a joke.
30 minutes amazing quality and absolutely 0 ads
It's really messed up that the police lady at the end blames Moses for locking up Stinson for 23 years.
I agree
Yeah
Definitely. That made my kinda feel bad for the guilty man himself
I disagree. That dirtbag killed a woman and an innocent man spent the best years of his life rotting in jail. It's absolutely despicable and Moses should feel ashamed. It's his fault.
Sam Warren It’s not Moses’ fault that Stinson was falsely accused, but rather the dentists who didn’t research their evidence. Sure, he himself is definitely not innocent, but it isn’t his fault that what happened to the innocent person so he shouldn’t be blamed for that too
"I'm just grateful we don't have a death penalty." Exactly. This is exactly why the death penalty needs to be abolished. More people have been (and continue to be) wrongfully convicted than we think, the idea that some of them could be victims of government-sanctioned murder is unthinkable.
A-fucking-men sister.
This almost makes me not want to call the police if I see a dead body. All it takes is a simple mistake on your side for them convict you.
this was in 1984, forensic science has gone a long way. You'd be a "suspect" for finding it but it would be cleared quickly after fingerprints, DNA etc
Just whatever you do, don't lie
As a p.o.c this breaks my heart. Makes me want to cry. That could be a family member. It could be me. It's scary.
the way they made the actual murderer say sorry but not the judicial system that failed robert. that's so disgusting
Wanted to point out that there is an episode of Criminal about this, called The Sailor's Teeth. One of the studies mentioned briefly in this video was done by Adam J. Freeman. He was a forensic odontologist who eventually began to have doubts about the accuracy of the science, and his study revealed a shockingly high rate of error. He no longer evaluates bite marks and advocates for courts not to take bite marks into consideration. Chris Fabricant, who works with the Innocence Project and also appears in this video, was featured on the episode as well.
Incredible editing, motion graphics and sound design. The production quality of your videos are the best. Keep up the good work Vox!
This is such great content, felt like a nat geo documentary. I hope the trial goes well in 2019
Wow, half an hour of free content. So well produced. Thanks Vox! This is Netflix quality!
this is better than netflix
Wow Vox, thank you for this, amazingly well put together piece. Probably everyone's biggest fear, that you could get convicted and sentenced for a crime you did not commit, almost made me cry this story. Thank you and keep them coming please. I'm from South Africa.
Creepy part about this trial and others like it, if there was a death penalty, no one in the court system would be jailed for sending an innocent man to death.
The murderer who actually committed the crime showed more remorse than then prosecutors who put him there.
This happens everyday. Maybe not the exact same situation but the same plot. It is absolutely disgusting.
Most times they make the “suspect” plead guilty for a plea deal, or be prosecuted to the “fullest extent of the law.” It is unDemocratic, nauseating, and heartbreaking. Unfortunately I have had first hand experience with this…. And it never goes away. Good luck getting a job after being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just being Charged is enough to ruin anyones life.
We need to stand up for reforms.
We need justice for this man!!!
These dentists should be held up forever as an example of failed scientists. Not because they tought that bitemark-evidence was real, but because they were too cocky to test their own assumptions (saying in court that this is a proven science, backing up a colleague without even looking at the evidence)
Wow this series was jawdropping. The judicial system is so baffling and that Dental Expert was out of his mind. why did everyone just so blindly trust him? this story was told so well I felt truly moved
$ 115.000????? WTF, that's nothing for a life in prison.
He got $7.5 mil on July 11, 2019.
What an absolutely vexing and horrifying story. Thank you so much for bringing this to light, and for the absolutely fantastic production quality. These stories deserve such resources.
Vox’s writers/creators are so good at their job. They deserve a show on Netflix or something
OH MYYY GAAWWWDDD 32 MINUTES OF PURE AWESOME!
so hyped!!
This story is always horrible to hear. Poor guy. Probably racism involved.
Don’t make assumptions based on nothing to back them up.
Ha ha...that's what I thought that other people at the moment would have thought....😂😂
Yep, I wouldn't be surprised either if there was some racist undertone to this investigation given how US police treats black people
@Matthew Shields REEEEE don't argue using facts this is 2019
@@datenschutz6123 You realize that calling for a massacre of Vox employees makes you and conservatism as a whole look really bad, right?
Also, watch out Vox. This poster just called for violence against you guys. I've reported the comment.
I discovered this station...CZcams video...Vox just yesterday and I can't stop watching. I rarely click on unknown stations...videos...whatever they're called because it's so obvious what the creators' objective is. But I have learned so much in the last 2 days and I am so grateful for that because education, knowledge, and information is so crucial to humankind's future.
If your forensic “science” requires heavily subjective judgement calls you should be forced to put your life on the line as collateral. Give them incentive to get it right or find an actually scientific method.
Someone should make a go fund me for him
The dentist and judge showed absolutely no remorse. There should be prison time for such wildly incompetent and irresponsible work.
The judge shouldn't be. She wasn't in charge of deciding whether Stinson was guilty or not or did any research. But the dentists, yeah definitely.
Outstanding piece of journalism. Congrats to the Vox team for another masterpiece. I truly hope Stinson gets justice.
thank you vox for these amazing, free, well-edited, and informative videos!!! you never fail to impress me... really
110k should be his damn salary, not his one time payout for being locked up for two decades.
I strongly belief that people should get $500,000 a year for every year that they’re falsely incriminates. Tied to inflation of course.
Money doesn’t fix years of isolation
Y'all need to make more of these this was so good 😩😩
Truly appreciate such high content video by Vox. Excellent editing as well!
I thank CZcams for recommending this gem. I love it and learned a lot from it. Good one, Vox.
I'm always impressed by Joss' work. Thank you for this amazing piece of journalism and looking forward to more!
Thank God for Vox and Vice. They're the last line of defense for journalistic integrity.
No amount of money can make up for that many lost years.
Thank you so much for sharing this story with us, Vox.
That's horrible. They can take their $115,000 and stuff it!!! He deserves millions because he didn't deserve to be arrested, tried, convicted, and imprisoned for years for something he didn't do. And the money should be taken from those "forensic" "experts" who lied!!!
Absolutely disgusting and heart-breaking. The people who just rushed through this without a care are the real criminals.
From the National Registry of Exonerations: “He received $25,000 from the state of Wisconsin (the maximum allowed under the Wisconsin compensation law) and the state legislature approved a special bill that awarded him an additional $90,000 in 2014. He also filed a federal civil rights lawsuit that was dismissed in 2015. The lawsuit was reinstated in 2017 by the 7th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals. The city of Milwaukee settled the case in July 2019 for $7.5 million.“
He went in a boy and came out a man after spending all those developmental years in the company of criminals. That he survived morally is evidence of a strong character evolving out of duress. I suspect family support had a hand in that…and, of course, not all convicted criminals are evil.
Thank you for making such amazing videos. I am one of the early subscribers and Vox team has come a long wayyyy.
The production quality is stunning on this one.. absolutely stunning 👍
wow i nearly cried when they release the innocent man
Amazing work by Vox to show a compelling case that every scientific field must be judged by severe uncertainty analysis. Superb video!
My mouth actually dropped when she said 24 years
Jesus. How could this 'professional' be willing to convict someone without double checking? When peoples lives are at risk, you should at least double check
"Measure twice, cut once" can apply to so many things in life
Because judges are elected in the US which makes them just as trustworthy as any politician.
Vox, thank you for reporting on such an important story. I cannot appreciate your work enough and I just want to ask if you could work with your heads and be fair to the channels that criticize you. I will not stop watching you in protest but this does make me feel vary as it is slightly harder to trust people that are unfair to and are copyright striking other smaller channels that criticize you, I hope this message helps but sadly who cares what an Indian college student thinks so I don't think it will 😅
That’s some really good quality documentary you guys made. Good job
Wowowow, Vox this is one of the best videos I have ever seen on this channel. Incredible
Thank you for teaching us about this unbelievable case. And in high quality Netflix doc style to boot(:
I scrolled down to the comments hoping to read more about this heartbreaking case, but all I get are rants about copyright strikes.
My guys, the people making these videos aren't the ones making copyright strike claims. You might as well be yelling at Genius Bar employees because your iPhone's battery died. This is not mature, constructive behavior. (But this is the internet, I don't know why I would expect that lol)
Gorgeously created video. High quality journalism. Excellent!!
Just loved this video! Congratulations Vox, you just stepped up the game. We want more...
No human system is perfect. And here, because there was little apparent concern for accuracy or reliability, an entirely innocent man spent 23 years in jail. What outrages is the State of Wisconsin recusing it’s obligation to properly compensate this victim of its blunders. Disgusting.
Judges are very judgemental. How ironic. They hear what you are accused of, see you, then make an automatic judgment on whether they think you could be guilty. They are human which means they go off of experience and life.
This is soo well made! Great work :)
That is some extremely well put together content. Great video!
Prob my number one biggest fear is going to jail for something a didn't do! The thought of spending 10-20 years - life in prison because of bunk forensic science!
The amount people in jail currently for this reason too! Uhg just stirs up so many emotions in me!
Should create a whole new department (not cold case investigators) that re-examine peoples files who have been put away because of what is poven to be bunk science/forensics !!!!
Drug test are just as bad tho! Labs coming up with positives for illegal drugs for other labs to determine its a false positive.
So many kids taken away from their parent(s) because of this!
*SIGH*
check the story of Adnan Sayed and the victim Hae Min lee. He got convicted of her murder when he was just 18 and got released when he became 41.....after 23 years.. he even had an alibi to prove he wasn't at the scene of the crime and they had no good evidence to prove it was him.
Does the real killer have, as the forensic dentist declared of the suspect, "an abnormality of the upper teeth"? I realize that the whole point of this documentary is the fallibility/unreliability of forensic odontology, but I'm super curious about what Mose Price Jr's teeth look like.
This is the main reason I'm against the death penalty. Thankfully Wisconsin doesn't have a death penalty because they would have sentenced an innocent person till death. If even 1 innocent person is put to death by the state, then it has no place in society.
If it could happen to him, it could happen to anyone, even you.
My favorite youtube channel. Keep up the good work guys
I cried so hard at the scene where he was released from prison. I was so happy for him yet so sad for the fact. This Man lost his most important years in his life. That he will never get back. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I was one of the people who convicted him as guilty. How could ever give back what you taken from him. They say there is no evil intent but there was. The simple fact. The evidence was false positive. Should be enough to put away every person involved in convicting this Man. Yes people make mistakes and this is a perfect example of one. You can't fix what you did to this Man in anyway besides being held accountable for it. To show others in the future if you make a wrongful conviction. You will be trialed and sentence for it. The fact this is not happening and the judge and dentist are not in prison right now is pure evil and heartless with no actual care what has happened to this Man. It's straight Evil.
What makes you think there was evil intent? Do you think that these doctors knew he was innocent and still convicted him?
One of the main things that bug me with the case is that, even if bite mark science was accurate, this is a classic mistake of prosecutor’s fallacy…
Salute to Vox for covering such issues
So...when will you be doing a video on the issue of companies abusing the Copyright Strike system? That would be a very interesting watch