They suck: supporting books when you don't like the author's views (an analysis)
Vložit
- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- Today we are talking about what to do when you dislike an author's views but like their work; but we are going to look through the lens of how famous fantasy authors really are in the grand scheme of things, and how much responsibility the reader has to know about an author's history. I also talk a little about the Wired article "Brandon Sanderson is Your God" but like...not in the way you probably want me to, because that's how this is going today.
It's not death of an author...cause that's not what it means...but I'm putting death of an author here for the search algorithm's sake ;)
Videos mentioned:
@merphynapier42 : • Brandon Sanderson Is Y...
Hugos video: • Ranking all the Hugo a...
Chapters
00:00 - Intro: fame and author's views
02:41 - The relative fame of fantasy authors
07:46 - It's always about the internet
09:03 - A reader's responsibility
14:29 - Bad people can make good art
18:30 - Some ending thoughts
References
www.wired.com/story/brandon-s...
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
www.imdb.com/name/nm0005544/
Socials
Instagram: / bookborn.reviews - Krátké a kreslené filmy
As Stannis Baratheon put it "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward".
I agree with this mostly,
Although once I know of an author who has hateful opinions, it does make me not want to support them financially.
J.K. Rowling for example, the books were obviously great. In fact, Harry Potter was my first love (first series I ever read). I will never stop loving those books, they were great.
But I will no longer purchase anything by her since I know, and I cannot just forget or ignore it.
@@SnowTheParrotI wish you would actually listen to what she said and educate yourself on the situation. Nothing she said or believed was hateful. And you not buying her stuff because of your own bigotry your own hate filled views is fine. I hope one day you don’t just hate people for being different, which ironically is why you think you are justified in your hatred for jk Rowling. Life is too short to be filled with so much hate and intolerance I honestly feel sorry for you. Have that much hate in your heart is emotionally taxing.
@@brettlarsen4650 You are talking about hate while J.K Rowling uses her platform for years to spread hate against trans people going as far as to become holocaust denier and then SLAPP critics? I can't know if you are an actual transphobe engaging in crybullying or you simply don't know what she said or why it's harmful but calling someone a bigot for boycotting bigotry is absurd
@@SnowTheParrot You seem like one of those people who rides the waves of hatred without even bothering to check where this hatred came from. How about you look up what actually happened before you blindly follow those woke fanatics. And I say this without even being a fan of J.K. Rowling, never read Harry Potter or anything from her.
So what's the reward for the bad? Did you forget about that part of the line?
OMG LMAO I didn't even finish the video yet but I need to share this:
My mom walked in while I was watching this video so I asked her, just to test it out, "mom, who wrote The Lord of the Rings?", and she said "J. J. K. Martin" not a hint of hesitation in her voice omg i'm wheezingggggg help
Wow, she combined three authors into a single name. There's a talent. lol
STOP LMAO she really nailed all of them in one go, I'm proud of her
@@williamerickson520 Well, it is a trilogy
Bloody, hell, my mum was a fan of all three writers! Although she began to dislike Ms. Rowling personally (though not her work) when her transphobic views became known. My mum was an awesome geek.
That's hilarious!
Or maybe your mother is secretly a fantasy nerd and trolled you masterfully. 😅
If you enjoy a book written by a "bad person" it doesn't in turn make you one as well. I would say it's healthy to read content by people you don't agree with to expand your own perspectives and ideas. Like mentioned in the video, sometimes "bad people" create good art and ideas. We can't just live in echo chambers our whole life ignorant to the fact that there are others that don't think exactly as we do.
And it’s definitely an internet phenomenon to assume people have all the opinions of the people they read. Unfortunately negative opinions and loud voices stay with us longer and so it can be hard to ignore!
I think what you've said needs to be said more, a very reasonable and intelligent way of thinking. I think what you've said is especially true in the movie industry right now. For example, I think Kevin Spacey is one of the best actors alive when it comes purely down to talent. Do I think he is a good person? No way, but I can separate the art from the person.
@@westlink1985 yes, but Spacey doesn't really say anything that was created by him. Books are different.
@Bookborn lmao he didn't say shit, stop drinking the CIA coolaid, cixin liu is one of the mildest authors out there. i like how you mentioned scot orison the author of enders game, well him and Robert A. Heinlein have said far more worse shit. whats next are you going to start getting pissed at Iain banks as well for his more conventional depictions that don't align with the west?
most sci fi authors and sci fi in general is extremely related to politics its only natural for the authors to also be political, if you don't like it I suggest you go back to reading kids book of fantasy.
if your talking about the Uyghur internment controversy, its funny that you in the west care so much, because every muslim country even usa aligned ones like UAE and saudi arabia voted against it, and even the un already unclassified it as only "cultural genocide" which is funny because julian assange is still in jail for speaking out against us warcrimes against muslims, and australian soldiers caught commiting warcrimes in afghanistan are still praised lmao, don't pretend you give a shit about muslims. I love you bleeding hearts be very selective on it, when are you going to boycott all of these british and canadian authors for depictions of the native americans? or supporting integration through residential schools lmao @@Bookborn
There's a reason the saying "never meet your heroes" became common wisdom.
Eh sure but I've personally never seen much wisdom in it. I do get wanting to avoid the general discomfort and pain of finding out a hero or idol sucks but also fuck it meet your heroes. Find out some of them suck. Find out even impressive people can suck. Find out that even your heroes aren't perfect so you don't have to be perfect to be someone's hero. Find out that even if they suck the good things you got from them are still valuable even if THEY were hypocritical.
I do agree with her point on not having to vet every single creator because yeah that's exhausting but I've always seen the approach of "never meet your heroes" as kind of inherently flawed. I just find it encourages keeping your blinders on when it comes to questioning people you look up to and discourages a lot of chances at growth from the times you do
Liu Cixin told me I'm too positive to write scifi, while John Scalzi only told me my choice in burrito has too little starch!
Never, unless your hero is David Cronenberg. He's a really great guy, no matter what he's written and filmed.
That's been more or less my experience with books. I don't pay attention to the author name unless i'm really enjoying the books and want to know who wrote it so i can get more by that author -- or i really hate it and look at the name so i can avoid further work. But never does it occur to me that i should look at who the author is as a person. I just want more of the thing they made.
Hard relate. I mean, in fairness, Piranesi by Susanna Clarke, which is like one of my favorite books of all time - I couldn't tell you anything about her except she's British. A lot of times I just don't care, I just love the work.
That's how I feel about actors as well. The main reason I learned about Brandon Sanderson as a person is cause of how active he is in answering questions about this stories (look up his response to how shardblades would interact with a cheese wall)
@@tomraineofmagigor3499 there's a lot in that closing statement i do not understand but am terrifyingly curious about LOL
It's hypocritical to decide to go back on a piece of art and put down the artist. We all adore artists who have done terrible things and are bad people. The thing about that is, we just aren't aware of what they've done.
It's more complicated than that, specially when they're still alive, they have power (money) and those "opinions" are political. People, specially white in the west, forget that politics are important. Famous americans in the 20th century influenced people to agree with american state policy, said american state policy mandates the CIA to orchestrate a coup in a latin american country, I live in that latin american country and i am basically fcked now. That type of things. Politics matter, because we live or die by them.
This matter less when it happened 40 years ago, so i'm not gonna hate Tolkien for being a crypto fascist, i love his work. But if he was alive today and was arguing for my active oppression, well i'm not gonna fcking like that.
I don’t research any authors prior to reading their book - I figure that is on the individual reader if they choose to do so. If I researched every author I read, I’d never have time for actual reading!
For real lol
But sometimes we're personal friends of yours, and you can't help but know about us...
@@jcmberne And in those cases - why, those are the best possible outcomes!
A don't research authors even AFTER I read their book. I don't really care who the authors are and what they like or dislike. They might be a serial killer, for all I know, but if I like the book i'd still buy and read their next book.
Another thing to consider is that human views on what is good/right and what is evil/wrong changes over time. I guarantee that future generations will judge us for perceived faults that are lauded today as virtues. And with how connected the world is, those shifts come faster than ever before. There is something to be said for taking the good we see in a person’s art while understanding that they are just human. We have faults too. Some people just have the misfortune of being more widely known/published so their closet skeletons are on more public display.
Yes, I agree with this. I think it can be hard when those faults seem to be really harming OTHER people... like when an artist donates money to hate groups. That's when I think we all just have to individually decide how we are going to deal with it.
I love this we often hold other people that lived in different times and cultures to our own lofty standards.
That's a bad take. General human respect is really quite a universal virtue.
@@kindateia Very wise take. The Liberal values I still hold from the 90s make me an alt-right nasty today. But I do not renounce those values.
@@kindateia Taking into account people's circumstances is a bad take?
My husband and I actually had a very similar conversation when we were discussing wired article. Our summed up conclusion was when we find out an author, actor, etc is a good person it makes us want to consume their work even more. When we find out a person is an awful human being it makes us like their works less. I don't stop consuming their works necessarily but I have a tendency to gush about the less.
Totally. And when you find out beforehand, it's easy to dismiss it. I'll probably never read Avalon because I didn't read it as a kid and now I know the author sucks. It's only after you love a work that it becomes harder to dismiss
What about the wired article made you dislike Sanderson? My reaction was that the journalist was a mean girl.
@@BookbornAvalon as in "Mists Of"?
Is this a Marion Zimmer Bradley issue?
*returns from checking the web*
Oh hell.
I'm now deeply regretting the Avalon Priestess tattoo I got back in the early 90's. I really hope nobody makes the connection anymore.
Bot brain
I find this line of reasoning is strange. It's like children being scared of cooties, reading and enjoying someones work isn't going to somehow infect me with their worldview. Art is interpreted through the eye of the viewer not it's creator. How are people ever going to expand their horizons if all they consume is the same? Imagine a world were art is gatekept by the requirement that you be a "good person" and apply this in a historical context, like really apply this to some authors now deceased... Also it attributes a strange worldview it's like these instances I'm not seeing that this is a connection to real division, I actually find it sort of strange that the critic sees a connection between some real societal group and the fictional people who sacrifice children to their strange otherworldly deity or some such.
Thanks for contributing to this important topic! Indeed the internet has changed our perception of art and artist quite a bit.
Concerning Cixin Liu, I was "lucky" to attend a public reading of his first book a few years ago here in Berlin. While I kind of liked his first book, I really found some of the statements he made during that event quite unsatisfying. I think I remember him saying that he thought that human behavior would one day be completely predictable by science and that there is no such thing as a soul.
And especially the way he said this to a young psychology student "turned me off" that much, I did not feel like reading any more of his work.
So getting to know an author before they create their works CAN contribute in the perception of their writing.
whether in music, movies, books sometimes you need to separate the art from the artist...if I only read, watched, and listened to things written by people who I agree with, I would have nothing to watch, read, or listen too.
In theory, I agree with what you say. In practice, I honestly do tend to read at least a little about the author before I engage with their books. It's not that I can't deal with a little controversy, but if the author has consistently said or done things I can't defend, then I'm not eager to enjoy the book, hear the bad news and then have an argument with myself about the validity or reasonable extent of my appreciation of their work. I can't deny, there's a certain amount shame involved in that thought process. In a world where social media doesn't push the conversation about the personal ethics of authors, I would probably better tolerate reading a 'good book by a bad person.'
Honestly, If we were to demand great artists to be outstanding people we'd be left with very few. Picasso, Mozart, Beethoven, Norman Mailer, Hemingway, just to name a few, not to mention a lot of rock stars weren't exactly models of ethical behaviour. Should we give up their incredible art? I won't. Regarding present artists, I think I can be critical of the person while still enjoying their work.
yeah, I was even thinking of inventors/tech giants...that have been known to be big ol' jerks (Steve Jobs comes to mind). It would be hard to engage with much period. That said, I realize there is a scale, and that's why everybody's personal views come into it; I"m certainly not going to judge anyone though for what they choose to read, but rather their own individual actions.
I kinda agree but I think the thing is that all the people you’ve listed are dead lol so they aren’t profiting off anyone buying their work and using said profits to fund hate groups. I think we can admire the work they’ve done while critiquing their behavior but imo people eager to shout praise but are real quiet about the person’s wrongdoings and and are quick to brush them off ie almost everyone knows who Picasso is and about his art but a lot of people are surprised to learn that he was an abusive misogynist and cubism, which he helped “pioneer “, was heavily influenced by African art which he later tried to deny
@@Bookborn In the Book of Genesis, the inventors of musical instruments and harnessing metals were from the line of Cain. Also, the line of Cain introduced polygamy, spousal abuse, and murder too. Something about the freedom of creativity also taps into debauchery as well. If you examine people in artistic fields, tendencies for drug use or sexual promiscuity are much higher.
@ThomasC what about the drug use and sexual promiscuity of conservatives?
@@dionnadays8908 Even with artists that are still alive, I feel the same. I loathe Mario Vargas Llosa’s political views with intensity but he’s still a great writer. Same happens with many musicians or movie directors or actors. Criminal activity against people is where I would draw the line.
Cixin’s views are commonplace in China. It’s very hard to understand unless you grew up and lived in China. I think we all tend to underestimate how much our environment and upbringing influence our views and when someone’s views drastically differs we often jump to the conclusion that they are a bad person rather than thinking through what circumstances led them to view the world this way.
He says that there's no such thing as a soul. Think he was talking about himself.
@@Blue-xk8vq that's the "problematic" thing he said? lol
@@BeingThePaul He also supports slavery and is pro genocide. Don't LOL about ppl like that, nothing funny about it.
I've not found anything controversial in what he has said, apart from seemingly making one generalising comment about Muslims in that New Yorker interview. But it's such a hatchet job and so US-centric in its thinking it's hard to tell what he actually meant. And the journalist is so blinkered and biased - she genuinely thinks that Liu is brainwashed and that she is immune from it:
"The implication was clear: years in the West had brainwashed me. In that moment, in Liu’s mind, I, with my inflexible sense of morality, was the alien."
This after a whole interview of her grilling this author on all the tired old anti-China propaganda tropes. It would be like a Chinese interviewer attacking George RR Martin for an hour asking him to defend the American government and the history of American Imperialism. It's the same thing that happens to any Chinese person any western media comes into contact with and that to me is far more offensive than the, as another commenter mentioned, perfectly commonplace and legitimate political views that Liu expressed (under duress).
What I definitely didn't see is anything "evil" as Bookborn said. Would hate to think she swallowed the anti-Chinese propaganda after having such a connection to his work.
Love your videos!
I’d say confusing the message with the messenger is a common mistake. If every work you read and value must be written by a flawless human being, you’re done reading.
It’s part of a greater trend I’ve begun to see in that “Internet age“ you reference. Because we can research increasing details of any author’s life, readers can get hooked on pursuing
“offense archaeology”. And because many folks increasingly struggle with nuance, they must label a person “good“ or “evil”. People are mixed bags (though, certainly some mixtures are more homogenous than others). “Good guys“ and “bad guys“ are judgments for toddlers. Adults can do better.
Judge an idea or an action. People are vast collections of these things.
Edit: I posted this before finishing the video (which is never a prudent move). I see that you are also uncomfortable with the term “bad person“ in general, and seemingly for the same reasons)
My condemnation of that perspective above was not directed at you. It was directed at the perspective.
Once again: thoughts and actions, not people.
🙂
The only author I have banned from my shelf after learning somthing about her was Marion Zimmer Bradley - having actually done terrible things seems more relevant to me than having terrible opinions.
Yes, I agree that actions are definitely things that make me pause more than just speech. I’m also not interested in Avalon anymore, although it’s easier since I never read them in the first place.
@@Bookborn for a second, I thought you were talking about Avalon the webcomic.
@@Bookborn tbh as someone who read it at a very young age - 12 - one of the worst moments for me when I found out what she did was the way it explained certain scenes in the book that always felt odd and deeply uncomfortable to the point where I didn't even have to reread it to find them. I just remembered them the very instant I read the accusations. So, yeah, it's not really one where you can separate art from the artist, tbh I'm not very good at that in general, but especially not with Avalon and MZB.
Yeah, I bought one of her books from a charity shop because I thought it looked interesting. I was planning to read it and one day just decided to look her up, and I am glad I did so before getting invested in her stuff. Not sure whether to just bin that book or give it back to the charity shop.
Boycotting dead people is basically pointless unless they left their estate to some sort of evil organization.
I don't go out of my way to research an author. However, if I learn something about the creator that makes me lose desire to keep reading their books, I will just drop them. I also take in account if they are actively affecting things today.
One of my favorite authors is Orson Scott Card. I don’t agree with a lot of his views. I don’t care. I enjoy his work.
I avoid author info like the plague. I enjoy my reading and leave it at that. Someone once said you should never meet your celebrity heros because they will bitterly disappoint you. I apply this to my reading as well. I read to avoid this stuff. I’m not doing deep dives on everything I read.
I appreciate you having this as a public discussion. I'm sure that as a Booktuber you juggle more pressures in this area than most readers. My personal stance is that I want to know before giving money to an author whether I can support them in good conscience, or recommend them to anyone. I don't research my $0.99 ebook purchases, and get most of my books used, so it isn't much of a time sink for me when I do want to find out what an author is like. Then there are times authors make their views perfectly clear in their work, and save me the trouble. 🙃 What really sucks is when you fall in love with someone's work beforehand, as with you and Cixin Liu. We can engage with something critically and still love it for what it means to us as individuals.🖖
Thanks for this comment. I particularly like "we can engage with something critically and still love it for what it means to us as individuals"
You brought up some very valid points! I will say that I responded about the wire article. Because Brandon Sanderson is my favorite fictional author ever! And is a very nice person, I found it very unkind! Brandon Sanderson's books have changed my life! As someone who has been abused, sexually, verbally and physically, the Cosmere is a lifeline for me! And for the first time in my life I can look in the mirror, and I like the person staring back at me! That's due to Brandon's incredible mental representation! Through therapy, Brandon Sanderson books, and my own personal growth, I like being me! If that's not great art I don't know what is!
I like that you added the little insert about "bad people". The way i see it is that the concept itself is problematic, too simplistic and mostly used to "other" people. Human beings are complex, they are able to do 'bad' things and 'good' things all at once. Disqualifying another person because of y being bad fails to recognize that they most likely do a lot of 'good' too. People are a product of their environment and influences, categorizing them simplistically as 'bad' or 'good' does a disservice to understand the nuances of the human condition.
Now ofc there are extreme situations where this proxy idea is useful, i don't need to look at some of the worst people in human history and say "well actually" (even though the logic might still apply somewhat), so what transgressions are 'bad' enough? That is most likely down to some personal interpretation in most cases, though i think it is important to consider the following:
You are rightfully saying that the internet gives us more information than ever, but what it also does is make it easy to 'other' people based on the information we want to see, or even just information which is missing context or might even be flat out wrong (or INTERPRETED FOR YOU by others with their own biases). There are social pressures, there are echo chambers for any opinion, there is a certain push towards making people think the same about any given topic. What i am getting at is that for all the information we have, i think it became more and more difficult to come to conclusions which are solid because there is a lot of noise from all sides.
This was somewhat of a tangent, but i think it is important to at least acknowledge and think about, people are complex beings, 'othering' shouldn't happen as fast as it does these days, judgements are coming rather fast and to me at least the 'othering' has mostly one function, to feel better about oneself. (THEY ARE BAD = I am not).
I think HP Lovecraft is a great example of this. He was a gross, disgusting, hateful human being, which is where his style of writing and the ideas he came up with sprang from. However, Cthulu and Cthonic ideas is something our culture (and our SFF genres) took and ran with and made their own in a lot of ways, and not once in any of those adaptations have I seen Cthulu's hateful themes and ideologies pushed. We took the product of a bad person and made it cool and took away that hateful origin in the eyes of the general public.
Right. It's not as though human beings can be neatly divided into Good People and Bad People. Nor that people who advocate views that I find incorrect, misguided, or even abhorrent are thoroughly bad people in all respects.
@@Steve_Stowers Agreed. Social media often makes people forget that humans are complex and multilayered beings, not cartoon heroes and villains.
Thank you theredviper! People ignore the reality of how psyches of sentient beings work and based on superficial understanding they engage in distress-managing in a destructive way.
Yes, and I really like how you bring up that our penchant for sound-bites and headlines today also is where nuance - and understanding - often come to die. Not that there aren't evil people (hello Hitler, just to name an easy picking there) but I do think we throw around the phrase perhaps easier than we should.
I don't care who the author is and what they did. At all.
If I was entertained, their contract with me was fulfilled; and until I stop liking their work, I will be willing to be their customer.
Period.
I agree unless they are trying to feed me propaganda through their work.
I'm busy enough I struggle to find time to read as consistently as I want to. I think of I had to research every author's history, Interviews, and social media posts going back years I probably would run out of what little time I have. If an author I enjoyed reading came out and made some wild claims and offensive statements I would probably pack up their books and get rid of them in some way. Until something becomes quite public and known I probably won't find out about it and most likely won't start researching every person who writes a book or creates some of the media I enjoy. I'm sure it will come back to bite me someday, but I just don't have the time to worry about it preemptively.
I completely agree with all of this. The idea that we're supposed to monitor/research everything we consume is insane
This is a really good perspective! Your ‘the internet!’ type videos are always enlightening!
I always appreciate the way you think. I might not always agree, but you make a great effort to look at an issue from multiple angles. I was a literature major in college and was interested in how authors from different places and times dealt with social issues and moral questions. I guess I always understood that the authors were constrained and influenced by the time they lived and the places they were from. I hate current efforts to "sanitize" their writings. I want to know how they thought about issues and how their society viewed them. The same is true for present day authors. I judge an author on what they write, not on the life they live. I judge a person on how they live, not on what they write.
If someone doesn't read a book because of the author's views then they are creating their own echo chambers. This current culture of cancelling someone because of views or behaviour is destructive. Everyone is flawed.
People aren't black & white (good/bad). Separate art from the artist. You don't know someone is like from how they're portrayed by (an increasingly activist) media. Read what want to read.
And you are always bad in someone else’s eyes no matter what you do. For example someone could even point out your own connection in this comment like black & white (good & bad) dichotomy as racist. 🤷
I love this new take on the article. I've seen probably 20 video pushed by CZcams that weren't even people I knew about. Thank you for taking this in a new direction.
I only care if they get charged for a serious crime. I don't need artists to be my friends, I need them to make art that I enjoy. They are entitled to be whoever they want to be outside of that.
As for virtual signaling, in my country we have a saying - a person's heart is a forest - you never know what some stranger online is doing/saying/etc behind closed doors.
Readers have no responsibility to research anything. If you don’t separate the art from the artist there is no way to genuinely connect with a piece of art, because a subsequent action of or discovery about the artist can completely alienate how you perceive the work that you connected with. The bottom line is that it’s difficult to really know people even people you interact with on a daily basis (think coworkers) so we have zero chance of knowing any particular artist even if we think we do.
yes! this! I think a lot of people forget about the 'persona', how we present ourselves based on situation/circumstance. So there's not a full-truth grasp on what an individual is like.
I actually fundamentally disagree with this principle. While no-one is under any obligation to research the artist and art can be appreciated just fine without knowing where it comes from, to actively try to divorce a piece of art from its creator does a disservice to both art AND artist.
While I'm only someone who creates as a hobby, I am surrounded by creatives who do it as a job. People who create pour a part of themselves into whatever they make, be it a handcrafted mug, a dance or a full length novel. To try to divorce someone from what they've created just because their association offends your sensibilities is IMO possibly the most disrespectful way you can treat a piece of art, short of actually trying to deface or destroy it.
Critique a piece based on your opinion from an author all you like, but don't ever do the disrespect of trying to remove them from it. It's basically saying that this piece of art could exist without that person, removing the human element entirely. At which point, we may as well just pack up and let AI do all of our creating for how much we respect it.
@@jakerockznoodles yes it seems like we do fundamentally disagree. Glad you posted this here as I feel this view point certainly should accompany my comment.
@@jakerockznoodles didn’t Bookborn prove at the beginning of the video that usually the art transcends the artist. People know LORDS OF THE RINGS, but most likely have no idea who Tolkien is. I think most artists would prefer it that way. They want their work to be in the limelight, not their lives.
Facts.
Imagine having to look up every name involved in the credits of everything. You might as well only read memoirs and biographies from now on
A few years ago I saw a CZcams video declaring you need to cancel these fantasy authors because for a fact they give their numbers out at book signings. Now you have to question another fantasy author because he personally believes you are happiest being monogamous. I can go on, but the thing is no matter who you are ‘you’ will be canceled according to what the flavor of the month is
Great and thoughtful video. One point I don't think you touched on is sometimes reading from someone who has a different opinion than you can help strengthen your understanding of why you believe as you do in the first place. I know your video is more focused on art and financially supporting those who espouse hurtful opinions. But I think too often we refuse to even listen to opinions other than our own. My favorite thing you said is (paraphrasing here) you won't judge anyone for choosing not to support an author for whatever reason they see fit. Good job on this tricky video!
Nice video this is such a hard thing to talk about and make a decision on. Death's End is my favorite book of all time and it sucks that the author has said some horrible things. I normally know nothing about an author when i read them and honestly i think im going to try and keep it that way. You mentioned just how much information is out there and you are right. Information overload is a thing. Im reading to relax and i really dont want to add in any stress to that. I say this now but im sure it is something that i will go back and forth on over and over again.
If we only saw films from actors we liked, 98% of yhem would be out of work. Its a good thing we don't treat those actors the same way in kind.
I mean, some people do, but like all of these things I find it tends to be a lot of talk and not as much action.
Great discussion - and I think Ves' (Hi Ves!) comment's pretty great. I don't have a great answer myself beyond a vague "Try to limit the harm I do/spread" - but what I try to do, and what I'd always appreciate from creators is just information - if you know something, share it. I'm not necessarily going to think less of someone if they read a book from a homophobic author (for example), but if they knowingly hide that information, making it so others might accidentally engage with something they don't want to - that's a problem. It's providing information and facts widely such that individuals can make their own decisions - AND better decisions on whether to buy, get from a library, etc. there's a commercial component as well as the artistic one, and both might have different approaches.
and oh god the "No one with bad thoughts can make good art" is one of the most annoying, prevalent beliefs out there. Both wrong, and actively harmful for understanding and grappling with these issues when awful people *do* surface!
Thanks so much for this video-this is a topic that’s been on my mind a lot lately and it’s so refreshing and stimulating to hear this discussion including both critical thinking and nuance!
The Internet in general, and social media in particular, has given rise to this strange idea that, if you disagree with someone on a single topic, you must disagree with them on all topics. This is an extremely counterproductive attitude. Successful societies depend on finding common ground, even with people with whom you disagree. When it comes to literature and performing arts, I care a lot more about a story's message than the views of the creator. I believe that consumers do have an obligation to think critically about the products they consume. But actually researching something beforehand I reserve for big ticket items like real estate and automobiles, or high impact items like food or medication.
I have sufficient confidence in my own critical thinking to engage any art without worrying about being "infected" with "wrongthink." In the words of Aristotle, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Great video! Humans are complex. We all have our boundaries and limits. We won't, nor should we, all agree on everything. Heck, we may even contradict ourselves depending on the subject. I'm going to keep reading what I like, and if I find something or someone too offensive I'll deal with it in my own way.
This an incredibly nuanced conversation. For myself I don't go out of my way to research authors before I read them, however if something comes to light and the author actively physically hurt or abused people, or is spreading hate in the form of trying to take basic human rights away from people, then I tend to avoid talking about them on my channel. Or if I do mention them, I try to remember to have the caveat about what they have done. For other controversies that arise that are more open to interpretation, such as the controversy surrounding TJ Klune, I tend to not mention the controversy as much. Those lines are constantly evolving and changing, but the one thing I cannot stand is when people extend you reading an author with you supporting their views, like the viewer/commenter did to you with Cixin Liu. Like...we can consume works from racist people without being racist so I just need people to stop being so reductive in their arguments, and accept that it is only by having open honest conversations such as this that we can better understand each other. I strongly disagree that you should only mention controversies that directly affect you though (one of the comments was saying that's what they do), because allyship is real and sometimes having people that aren't directly impacted mentioning it can be very powerful for marginalized groups.
Yeah I don’t think that person was saying you shouldn’t, but rather that they notice they tend to talk about issues that affect them more, which I think can naturally happen. But I totally agree that this whole “I see a book on your shelf and so you must agree with them” trend is really annoying and slightly disturbing. It’s never that black and white.
@@Bookborn 100% never that black and white. Sometimes you don’t know there was something (like someone in my bookshelf tour last year brought up the author of mists of Avalon and I had no idea), or sometimes it’s more nuanced then that and it’s ok if someone had a different opinion
Great video! I like how you approaches this topic. While I don’t research every author that I read from I do make an effort to look up info when I am committing to a series and buying all of the books. Typically I try to borrow books from the library and then I buy my favorites for my collection. One thing I have been more aware of this year is the race and background of the authors I read. Specifically trying to read more diversely and looking up books within a genre by BIPOC and LGBTQ+ authors has led to some great reads that I would not have discovered if I only read “popular” books that I’ve heard about. I think that also being more aware of the problems within the publishing industry as well can make you a more informed reader / consumer.
I think we definitely have a distorted idea. The general public typically only come to know of an author once something has been adapted. Gaiman had a bit of that with Stardust for my generation. Martin became that with Game of Thrones (even though A Song of Ice and Fire has been in publication since the 90s). Rowling I feel like may have been a household name for households with children but then became known to most of the world with the release of the films.
It is super unfortunate finding out retroactively that the author is a terrible person. I think the one that hit hardest for me was after reading The Mists of Avalon.
Great video! Loved what you had to say.
The only reason I started reading Sanderson is I got linked one of his essays on the rules of magic from a blog, in the comments, and liked it enough years later I searched him for audiobooks to listen to on my commute when I got into reading, for the commute, so with him I am the weird one who started reading Sanderson books because they were Sanderson books. Of course the fact I loved the first one is what kept me going.
Also, I thought JK Rowling was a hack who got lucky with a brilliant idea no later that 2010, and am on record somewhere in the internet saying she wrote the end of a 7 book series in book 3 and had to twist the world to get out of it.
The problem (for me) with Cixin Liu is that the outrage is coming from Westerners who assume he has the same freedom of speech as they have. A lot of what Chinese "celebrities" do and say is rooted in what the party wants them to say or do. Sometimes their life will quite literally depend on it. Sometimes they will risk getting harassed or losing income or becoming socially isolated. Sometimes their families get threatened. I find it disgustingly ignorant when people judge others who belong to different cultures, but without actually understanding that not every place has the same rules or laws or morality. Only Cixin Liu knows whether he actually believes the things he said. But what I can say with certainty is that no one in their right mind would say anything to damage the Chinese government. It's easy to point fingers from the outside, but I'd like to see how many Westerners would cling to their morality if their life and livelihood was on the line. Instead of using this opportunity to bring light to the Xinjiang situation or starting a discussion on morality and how culture affects it, people are doing what they do best. Try to cancel this guy as if that will do anyone any good. At this point it feels to me that cancelling people left and right is what brings some people most joy, and that they're not actually trying to raise awareness or help anyone.
Convenient timing of your video, since I had a session today where I talked with my therapist about an arguably tangential similar thing. We were talking about how people (me) may want to be perceived as a certain way (in this case, for myself, kind) and that anything said or done that may be perceived as anything other than that desire perception--i.e., saying or doing something intentionally or unintentionally unkind--would be catastrophic and would negate any kindness that I may have done in the past or any kindness I may do in the future.
As you said "bad" people can create good art; however, I think therein lies the (general) crux of the problem: the idealization of absolutism--either you are "good" or you are "bad", you said the "right" thing or the "wrong" thing, or even you cannot write what you don't yourself believe. This leaves no room for the complexity, context, and nuance of the human spirit and experience. Additionally, there can be no absolutes because we have our individual and/or cultural perceptions and perspectives at play: what is culturally appropriate and acceptable in one place may not be the same in another in today's day and age, let alone comparing the modern era to historical periods. With that said, knowing of what Cixin Liu said and only just now reading the full article, there is context in language--written or spoken--that is often missed. Do I agree with what Liu said? No way! Do I think there is more behind his views? Yes. Another blurb from the same New Yorker article pretty much sums up what I'm trying to say: "'This is why I don’t like to talk about subjects like this. The truth is you don’t really-I mean, can’t truly-understand.' He [Cixin Liu] gestured around him. 'You’ve lived here, in the U.S., for, what, going on three decades?' The implication was clear: years in the West had brainwashed me [Jiayang Fan]. In that moment, in Liu’s mind, I, with my inflexible sense of morality, was the alien."
To answer your question, I do not actively research an author before I read any of their works.
Ugh I told you I knew your comment would be perfect. This is one frustrating thing about videos: they are so static. I always wish I could go back and add stuff to the conversation after reading comments.
Your first paragraph really hits home for me. I wish I had talked more about the fear of being perceived a certain way. Because that’s honestly where a lot of this stems from! The fear people will assume something about us that isn’t true.
@@Bookborn See Ted Chiang’s “The Truth of Fact, the Truth of Feeling”.
Love the in-depth-ness of this video! Thanks for sharing!
I don't care about an author's political or social opinions if they're a good writer, unless they bring those things into their work.
I am not a fan of Orson Scott Card in the least, but still like enders game.
I love the Cthulhu mythos, hate the racism that HP Lovecraft had.
If i rejected authors based on their opinions, how much would i have missed out on?
Frankly, this whole rejection of authors based on their morality is just two steps below censorship imho.
Totally agree. We live in a world where no one is perfect and we’re not going to ever agree on absolutely everything. People need to get over themselves with that nonsense.
If you want to keep reading an author, stay off Twitter, and other social media. That SHOULD be the big take away.
Yeah, I'm not on twitter and anything I've learned that came from twitter has always been against my will lol
Agreed!! Twitter makes you dislike anyone right away and yup, I’m still being fed Twitter against my will lol
Just avoid Twitter, Facebook and TikTok like the plague, period. They will destroy your soul and your brain cells lol.
Love these video essays. Really enjoying the discussion.
I honestly never research the authors and didn’t know about all this controversy until I started researching the books I love… somehow the algorithm just took the discourse and amplified it in my face until I lost my ignorance.
One opinion doesn’t make a person. Good people do bad things. And bad people make good things. The internet seems to be incompatible with nuance. And you know what?? People change and grow and get influenced by who knows what… that doesn’t all of a sudden change the works of art they once created.
I feel you on the 'worried about feeling hypocritical' point! As content creators, I feel like we occupy a very interesting space in this discussion. We can have our own personal views (which I 100% argue everyone has a right to), but then those personal views can affect others' perception of the works we discuss. But we're still fallible people with only so much capacity for knowledge. Sometimes it feels better to not mention anything at all about the author ever...but then that also feel disingenuous if you DO feel some type of way. 🙃 It's a hard line to walk and I also struggle with it frequently. Videos like this help to have an honest conversation about it though so I'd argue it's very much a step in the right direction :)
I don’t often go looking, but if info comes my way, I do take it into account (since I’m not likely to forget the problematic behaviour). Generally, if I can no longer respect the person I have a hard time enjoying their creations.
100% agree!
I agree but like even sometimes someone with just an annoying persona can ruin things for me. It’s never happened with an author but there have been a few actors that I got really had interview vibes from and it soured me on them 🤣
I feel like if you're a person who can't at least somewhat separate the art from the artist in certain medias, then you're just terminally online and in the nicest way I can say it need to get off your phone and go outside.
This video is amazing
Can I just say terminally online is one of my favorite phrases I've learned. It's so true about people and certain websites lol
This was the best discussion of this topic I've seen so far. Great thoughts and lots to chew on
I read the wired article last week after another video popped up in my CZcams feed that discussed it. The writer of that article comes off as completely condescending and just clueless. Brandon Sanderson’s fans love him because he is so accessible and so open and so giving of himself and his time. Not to mention we love his stories as well. When Mr. Sanderson was chosen to finish the Wheel of Time, I sent him a message on his blog giving him encouragement because I had seen some of the nasty things that had been written about him and how he wasn’t experienced enough and who was this guy to be taking over this Herculean task. He wrote me back quite a long email thanking me for my support. That was at a time when he would’ve been up to his eyeballs in rereading all the books and going through all of the notes. I got to see him at one of his book signings and the talk he gave was really interesting. Highly recommend attending one of his signings at a book release if you get the chance.
I'm a giant, giant sanderson fan lol! I've attended a few signings! I absolutely detest that article, I just didn't want to talk about it in the same way since everyone already had it covered haha.
I really like that there are lots of different people and views. The world is better for people having a lot of views. In fact it never would have changed and improved if people didn't have different views. I will go further to support authors I like, but really, more power to folks having different views. There is a limit on how bad but for the most part I will read it anyway. The best stuff was made by actually terrible people in my experience.
One of my favorite things about books is that it kind of forces people to interact with ideas that they might be unwilling to talk about otherwise. Books, also, make it easier to open up discussion on said complicated topics. Books like 1984 and Atlas Shrugged are intentionally controversial, and you still should read them. Point is, you should be engaging with authors that have a different philosophical viewpoint.
Yeah, and in the case of this issue, a lot of times the authors views sincerely aren't in the book itself, because it doesn't relate to anything within the book.
@@Bookborn And in some cases the views implied in the narrative can seem quite contradictory to what they say, as if writing fiction is how they try to work through their issues - I think some Lovecraft stories singled out find positive traits in otherness, and some people think Orson Scott Card may be closeted from some of his stories.
Well said.
@@Bookborn I actually also just finished The Three Body Problem books. I found the talking points well thought through and justified. Regardless of what he has said outside of the text, I'm happy about my purchase.
And when it's not just a 'different point of view' (a cowardly phrase considering some of the things authors are doing) , but actively trying to commit harm on a specific group of people?
If you were using a Mac product and you honestly are going to say that you have a consumer responsibility to look into every aspect of a book or a movie then you’re being a hypocrite. Just enjoy the book a person can be a shitty person and still have written an amazing piece of art or something that could’ve changed somebody’s life.
The amount of actors, politicians, corporations, authors, and everybody else that does anything that are going to turn out to be jerks or assholes are infinite. The line that somebody considers good or bad is also so different for every situation/person. Focus on the content of the material not the person who wrote the material when doing a review. I feel like that’s the simplest easiest way.
This is a really interesting and complicated topic. I liked the comment you quoted about everyone having to pick their own battles in terms of what content/products/companies etc. you feel comfortable with recommending and financially supporting. It would be exhausting to do a thorough vetting on everything you interact with and the bad view/action will affect people in different ways. Eg. An author being homophobic will naturally upset a LGBT+ person more than a cis/straight one. It’s hard to imagine that there’s a perfect person out there that will only buy or recommend things they know have no controversy.
Seeing the change in the Harry Potter fan base over the past few years has been interesting. Some previous die-hard fans have completely lost their love for the franchise whilst others take the “separate the art from the artist” approach. Most recently there was a lot of debate over whether it is morally wrong to buy the new Hogwarts game that came out in Feb.
Personally, I find the whole JK Rowling situation to be very interesting. Because based on what she has tweeted most conservatives would not think that she is against the lgbtq or trans group specifically, however, the left has the opinion that she is against the lgbtq specifically the trans community. When the game came out in Feb it furthered this contradiction because the left was staunchly against the game even though they created a trans character and then on the other side people were buying the game due to people saying that they should not buy the game. Finally, with this new reboot coming out, it faces this problem even more because most people do not want a reboot because the studio has claimed they will add to the story to make it more diverse, however, the reason they are making it more diverse is for the left who will not watch it because it will fund JK Rowling so overall an excellent view on how social politics play into the creative sphere.
I think it’s fine to enjoy what you enjoy and not feel the need to stress over vetting every author’s beliefs before you read them. That being said, it is reasonable to allow for the added context of a person’s character to color your perception of their work in hindsight.
I think a great example of this, for me, is Harry Potter and JKR’s transphobia. HP does a lot of things well, and I thoroughly enjoyed it as a kid/teenager growing up, partly because its messages fit my “Judeo-Christian” value system at the time. For example, the morality within the HP universe is very tribal and pro-establishment. Good guys and bad guys are clearly coded, often reinforced by visual cues. The wizarding world makes the conscious choice not to use magic to help the general population. And while there is some racial diversity present, their inclusion is regularly undermined by stereotypes and cultural insensitivity. These and other aspects to the work lend its overall feel a decidedly conservative bent.
This isn’t in itself a huge problem for me, there are plenty of people I disagree with politically whom I consider good people and enjoy the art they produce. The problems start to develop when the worst parts of that ideology start tangibly affecting the real world. This author is a British person with actual real life financial and political clout, who doesn’t seem to even acknowledge the lingering effects of literal and cultural colonialism on the world we live in today. I honestly believe that there is a direct parallel between HP’s moral obsession with the status quo, and JKR’s fanatical passion for defending cis-het normativity at all costs. It’s the same conservative logic. The world and the way things have always been done are generally good, so we must defend it, with violence if necessary. I find I prefer a more progressive mindset, and that’s not even accounting for the more insidious “natural order” aspect of conservative ideology, which is routinely used to justify casual racism, sexism, and even genocide in extreme cases.
It’s not unreasonable to think that a young person could read JKR’s books, be inspired by them, look her up in real life, and be swayed into active transphobia by her hateful rhetoric. And frankly that’s horrifying. For me, it’s more than enough real danger to justify boycotting the series and affiliated products indefinitely. But I also just can’t enjoy the books for themselves anymore, because I’m just too aware of the damage Judeo-Christian morality has done to me personally and people
I care about. So I do think it’s somewhat normal for your opinions on art to change over time as your own personal values do, if that makes sense. Thanks for bringing up such an interesting topic!
The reaction to Cixin Liu's comments is way overblown. You ask a Chinese mainlander about Chinese policy, and he answers with the Chinese government's stance verbatim. Big surprise. If anything, the fact that he basically quoted the government should tell you all you need to know if you read between the lines....
I haven't read him yet, nor was aware of any controversy regarding him before this, but I agree. I am sure he did not come by his opinions by choice, but birth. He was born into a system of indoctrination without exposure to dissenting views. As was I (only a different type of indoctrination). With that deep programming, it is difficult to break free.
This is a very interesting video, and inspired a lot of thinking as a viewer. Thanks Bookborn!
Thank you for an on the point video. I read Liu years ago enjoyed it, and never knew anything. We cannot be the police for everything and anything. Hey there are issues with some older passed authors that I heard of, where booktubers are not even aware of. All of you can't be aware of everything. For all of you on booktube, this does make your job so difficult, you o the best you can. Meanwhile, thank you for all your content.
For me personally. If an author is public in how bad of a person they are currently and are alive or recently dead, I will avoid their work. There are a million other books I could be reading. But I wouldn’t go out of my way to research every author I read. I rarely care about who the author is
I am more on the conservative side so if I only read books with authors I agreed with, my reading list in Fantasy/SciFi would be very short
I think it's important to understand art by understanding the creator, if you have that chance. It can provide context to a complex and personal experience. But that experience is uniquely yours, regardless of who or what created it. What will never be part of that experience, for me, is what other people tell me I should think or feel about the art or artist in question. The reverse is true, as well. Something that impacted you may do nothing for another. Talk about it, share those thoughts and feelings, feel free to address whatever negative aspects may surround that art, all of that is a good thing, but don't feel the need to police your feelings and experiences of art, or others. That freedom is important. And if you do feel the need to ensure that you don't directly support what you consider to be a bad person/artist, by all means do so! That's part of your experience, too. I thought you brought up some good points and you do a great job of trying to be true to yourself and honest with others, which is all anyone can ask, much less expect.
I think that for me, it changes my interpretation about pieces of media when the author's position on certain issues is revealed. For example, if you read a book and interpret it to be about love and acceptance, but then the author actively promotes hate and discrimination, it's hard to see the book in the same light. Now, I noticed that I interpret this media in a way that reflects the author's views wheras if I read it without reading the author's views I am predisposed to interpret it in a way that reflects your own views. I noticed a simialr thing in music, with Taylor Swift songs. The first time I listened to them, I had a certain emotion and I related them to my own experience. However, later I was told about the artists life and relationships, and I started relating her songs to her life story instead of mine because her experiences inform the way she writes, and passing judgement on the storyline of the songs and the actions of the narrator. This also changed the emotions I associate with the songs.
I beleive that even if a piece of literature is not biographical, the authors experiences and views usually are present to some degree in the novel, and that is why I read, to be exposed to different veiws. However, when the views I am being exposed to contradict my morals, they make me feel guilty for supporting and identifying with them by giving them the time to truly listen to them. I think that having an opinion I disagree with is different than doing actions or saying things that actively harm people, or promote actions that harm people, which is what I personally feel like I should not support once I am aware of it.
in at the jump ^^
Great subject.
I personally DO read from authors I disagree with. Partly bc it's dumb to do otherwise, bc where's the line? There's not a SINGLE person I agree with entirely (my father was my best friend. Over 10 years since he passed at age 49 I still talk about him regularly. One of the best men I've known. Loving, generous, smart, passionate, kind... but also an alcoholic with a trad/con jealous streak. He was never nasty, even when my mum socialised with other men, but he would complain. Which is dumb. Still the best man I've known, bc people are flawed, even the best of us)
Rowling isn't a particularly great author imo (Potter is enjoyable YA lit. But hardly comparable with fantasy greats imo) & I only read her work after reading a few articles/essays from her that revealed a smart, self aware woman. The fact she ALSO has baggage due to past trauma that leads her to faulty assumptions and misguided activism doesn't invalidate her work to me.
Terry Goodkind was an objectivist moron. The only things I've learned of the man are rather odious. But I still enjoy the Sword of Truth, I don't think it goes so far as plagiarism even if it IS absolutely derivative. And I even appreciate learning the values of his brand of libertarian, because they really aren't all that different from my own. Merely misguided by some faulty assumptions (the nature of freedom, the inherent nobility of people and what it means and how to promote it, even what constitutes hard work. Small differences end up with wildly different conclusions)
John Norman is probably the most controversial author on my shelves (displayed prominently bc I like to provoke :P) and as much as I STRONGLY disagree with his quite apparent assessments of human psychology and the nature of society I find that exploration *utterly* fascinating.
As soon as people start demanding purity checks for their art, they're building a cell for themselves.
I think it's natural and human to set CERTAIN limits... but even those are hard to justify bc the lines will ALWAYS be arbitrary, personal and subject to bias.
Now to learn your perspective ^^
See you after the jump!
I have nothing to add to this, just want to say this is a fantastic comment and I agree.
Your last sentence is really great. We will ALWAYS be setting limits for ourselves, and because we are human, they WILL always be arbitrary and perhaps even contradictory at times. It's life.
@@Bookborn
Aye, on the pushback you've gotten over Cixin Liu in particular I think people reveal JUST how hypocritical and shallow their thinking is.
(edit: rant ahead, skip for your own sanity! Sorry, not sorry ^^)
The man was raised in Communist china during the cultural revolution and resides in that nation now.
Are people GENUINELY shocked that somebody who has by all appearances got a comfortable middle class life doing what they love wouldn't be enormously critical of the regime he lives under. That he might consume media and be informed by ideologies that grant him a WILDLY different perspective of the west?
Folks can hate the CCP, but literally no nation is blameless when it comes to things they're condemned for. Internment camps for ethnic minorities? Wasn't all that long ago that was happening in the west and I really don't see much handwringing about it. Democracy sucks? Sure does. Anyone gonna dispute the statement when democracy is delivering terrible outcomes and governments that effectively operate just like a one party state.
It's a case of people in glass houses throwing stones, ignoring the broken glass that rains down upon them.
I could seriously go on for days deriding my own country (the UK) or America for our own bullshit.
Censorship, worse here in the UK but not exactly rare in the US just differently justified and practiced.
Media bias/manipulation.
Military industrial complex
Prison industrial complex.
Corporate capture.
Greed as a moral virtue...
etc etc.
The point isn't that China is great, or that Cixin Liu shouldn't be criticised for his opinions.
It's that failure to account for his personal and political context is VERY dangerous if people bother to be at ALL consistent.
Soon everyone becomes "the bad person" (in a global context, America is routinely seen as the greatest danger to world peace. With that knowledge, any "patriotic American" could be dismissed as a bad person. That's not something I could sign off to. Most people are okay. Even ones that support shitty governments)
There simply a marked difference between "person has opinions that upset or anger me" and "person is nasty or has done bad things"
I have a great deal more sympathy for dismissing the works of the latter, but even that is often not so easy. (Joss Whedon springs to mind for me. I was disillusioned with the man almost a decade before "woke" people came for him. Still like his work, and think he's simply a creative, talented... arsehole. And I have family that latter description applies to, and I can put up with their flaws :P)
Honestly, I think not being able to see the humanity and goodness in people just because they have flaws and different opinions is far more harmful.
Not a single person in the world is perfect or flawless. It’s okay to dislike certain aspects of people without hating or dehumanizing them entirely.
I just appreciate anyone who struggles with these issues, because it shows they are thinking empathetically about the world around them.
i feel like each decade has a “thing” and i think one of the things the 2020’s will be known for is *the decade when almost everyone was chronically online,* judging others based on skewed, immature viewpoints. coming from a left-wing liberal who has done a lot of that. lol don’t get me wrong, a lot of the judging is valid.. 😂 but i don’t think it’s healthy or sustainable.
99.9% of people do not give a 💩 about who said what or who got canceled, they just want to consume the art. which, to me is… normal. but there are subsets of communities online who become paranoid about these things because we are constantly hit in the head with them. “don’t support this person! don’t read this book! don’t talk about that series because it’s the same thing as promoting which makes you just as guilty as the offender!”
when i first joined the book community in 2020 i used to get stressed out because i wanted to enjoy the things i enjoy but i didn’t want people thinking i approve of what the “creator” said or did, which is so insane to me because now i don’t care. so many authors on my shelves are problematic. i don’t have the time nor the desire to research every source of entertainment i consume. life is *way* too short. is it good to be mindful of who you’re supporting? sure… but to what end.
anyway i’m going to bed now but i’ll finish watching tomorrow 💞
Chronically online is the best phrase and I definitly have fallen prey to it. It’s nice to get a different perspective and just relax about art. I like to be responsible but it just can’t happen all the time. I totally agree!
Where was this video at the end of last year when I was wrestling with the same questions?
I read a LOT of different opinions about a load of authors and controversial issues and I think basically it's up to each individual to decide whether or not to boycott an artist and no one should be judged for the choice they make. I do think it's healthy though to hear other people's opinions in an open-minded way and spend some time considering your own choice.
Personally I don't research authors in advance and I was devastated when I discovered the allegations against an author I had great fondness for (and a huge number of books by). That has now tainted my love for the books and made me regret ever researching them. After a lot of deliberation I have decided to separate artist from art and keep the books I love, but also not to buy any more by that author. I still don't know if that is the right choice.
Thank you for taking on this discussion in a balanced and non-judgemental way, and as ever for your well thought out videos.
for me it mostly depends on 1. what exactly they've said/done AND 2. whether they're alive to profit off of the support [if I find out through other people, I don't care to look it up myself]
Should not have written my response on a short bus ride, but im glad you liked it!
This video is one of the best on this topic, which is itself quite a mine field. Cannot wait for every one of us to come back 5 years later and cringe at our current beliefs (I know i'll be doing that 😅). Issues like this one always have me slightly tweaking my stances over time, and I am never quite satisfied with where i stand on them
Yeah I’m always very grateful there wasn’t social media growing up in the way there is now. Because my views have changed a LOT. That’s why I also always struggle when people don’t let others grow and change. Bringing up something someone posted a decade ago that they vocally don’t agree with anymore - gotta give people grace.
@@Bookborn YES!! And i think its just a "we'll learn as we go along" thing. As you said, Internet is SUPER YOUNG and noone is truly used to it yet. Seeing peoples old thoughts on your timeline in that black and white fashion has a different effect than hearing someone was a douche when thry were younnger, because the only thing different in that old post is the date of it in the little top corner😅
I think it comes down to perception and hopefhlly people will use the same common sense on the internet that they use in real life in the future
Can anyone explain to me what the author of the three body problem said? I read his trilogy and loved it, I did notice some misogyny but I'm guessing there's more to it
He supported concentration camps and genocide. Although, there’s some discussion on whether he spoke freely on China-controlled media.
I tend not to dig too deep on authors unless they're someone I end up really obsessing over. And heck, there are a few authors I've read lots & lots of books from that I know very little about.
In the age of the internet, however, it can be hard not to find out about people, especially the bad parts.
Somewhat recently I've had two such incidents.
I read a book by John C. Wright. I was working in a book store at the time, read the back, found it intriguing, and then ended up really liking the book. So, I picked up a batch of his other books to put on my TBR pile. Funny enough, I remember remarking on his author photo, saying something to the effect of, "boy, this guy looks like a That Guy." You know the type. The guy who pontificates about some pedantic subject ad nauseum while you try to chew your own arm off to get out of the conversation (because you're an employee trying to do your job & he doesn't have any friends so is using your inability to leave to his advantage). Anyway, not long after acquiring a pile of his books, that whole Hugo Awards kerfuffle from a few years back blew up and Wright was at the center of it, and not on the good side as far as I was concerned. He came out and said some pretty awful things, and suddenly that pile of hardcovers I'd tracked down and bought was looking less than exciting. I've just never been able to bring myself to read them, in spite of being very interested in the stories inside.
The other was with M.A.R. Barker. He was someone I'd known about for a long time. I'd been fascinated by his Tekumel setting, to the point that elements of it had inspired bits of my own writing. After years of owning a bunch of his work, and copies of the tabletop RPG based on it, I finally decided to really dive in. I read the first novel, I joined some social media groups about Tekumel. I was even kicking around starting up a game of the RPG. And then, like magic, it came out that he was a literal neo-Nazi. He'd even been the editor of a big racist magazine for years. Apparently a few people in his close circle of friends knew this about him, but many didn't. Some people who'd spent decades gaming with him, working on the RPG, etc., found out and were obviously devastated. Needless to say, that killed my interest in his work.
But it's not like I have some moral high horse to sit on. I still really enjoy H.P. Lovecraft's work, even though he was a racist (I still take umbrage at the "even for his time" refrain, as his views were disturbingly mainstream in America at the time). I still love Robert E. Howard's writing, even though he was a HUGE racist. I love Edgar Rice Burroughs's work and he was a danged Lost Cause advocate. Agatha Christie was an anti-Semite. Bradbury was a weirdo. Asimov was a sex-pest. The list goes on.
I feel like trying to research every author before I picked up a book would be like trying to find out what farm my food was grown on before I purchased it at the grocery store. It's just not going to happen and it shouldn't be expected. If I find out an author is problematic, I'm going to stay away from them, just like I'm going to attempt to steer myself toward more sustainably grown food choices when that's an option. But also, sometimes I might buy food I really want that is triple-wrapped in plastic and grown with pesticides. And occasionally I might really want to read something by a problematic author, especially if it is nostalgic. But in that case, I'll probably pirate it, because eff that author. 😂
Part of the reason I clicked on this video was because you had the Three Body Problem in the thumbnail, and my heart sank. I got that trilogy for Christmas and I have been so excited to read it because I have only heard great things! Of course I looked up the controversy because of this video, and....gd. This is why we can't have nice things! LOL. I'm still going to read the books, because I already own them. But at least now I'll know to add that caveat when I review them on my channel.
Lol yes I’m totally here. Like I try and support local… but like I also buy on Amazon when I need convenience. It’s just life.
Yeah it’s unfortunate, although there is a lot of discussion on how censored Liu is because of the Chinese gov 🤷♀️ since you own them tho… the series really is great
Fairly sad how the arts have become so one sided ideology wise, its not good for art or people
Definitely not an easy topic but a great video, really enjoyed it! I think for me personally it just depends on what the person did/how they treat others, some I can deal with and some make me uncomfortable, for example I would never read Marion Zimmer Bradley who wrote The Mists of Avalon. I was gifted her book ages ago and still see people rave about it but once I heard about what her and her husband did, I was like omg I cannot. I'm sure the story is incredible and it's really well loved, think there was even a movie made but I don't think I could read it and not think about the person who wrote it at the same time.
If we judge art by its artist, you'll quickly run of out movies to watch, books to read, music to listen to, and physical art to appreciate. No one is perfect. No one is required to align with everything you love and agree with in order to be considered "relevant." Appreciate the art for what it is and what you take away from it, and stop CSI'ing everyone and everything in your life to seek out things to be outraged by. You'll be a lot happier, and so will the rest of the people in your life, because to the rest of the world, we just don't care is someone had a garbage take online or if they once said something that was taboo, or if they once elected someone other people cannot stand, and these people who do make up 99% of the world find that the people who are outraged by this stuff are far more damaging to society and far more insufferable to be around than the provocateurs themselves, because unlike the outraged army, these artists, sucky or not, actually contributed something to society.
You make very good points here, and I totally agree with what you say at 17:14. It feels like ever since the JK Rowling controversy, there's been a surge of articles/videos saying "Actually, HP was never really good to begin with." Which, to each to their own, but it comes off like people trying to sound smart rather than actually being analytical.
I live in the West of Edinburgh. I have personally met a number of women who JK Rowling has helped privately when they found themselves in financial difficulties. She's been loyal to the people (especially women) she knew when she was struggling, and when she was becoming successful, but not famous. I do wonder how many of the virtue-signallers have ever parted with a penny to help someone. As to the "HP as never any good" - there seems to be an entire generation who expect the stuff they enjoyed as children to stay with them through to their thirties, and I don't understand it at all.
Ok this is totally what I was implying LOL like I don't think everyone needs to like Harry Potter - and certainly, if you first read it as an adult, there may be a larger chance you won't like it because you aren't it's primary audience: but the idea that because people don't agree with JK Rowling makes her work automatically bad is just sooo silly and really isn't adding anything to the conversation.
6:38 it is probably important to realize that the authors opinions often bleed into their work. Even if we don’t know exactly what the author believes IRL, we see it in the books. If they simply tell the story with many different belief systems held forth then the author is truly able to go with that flow. A master writer that taps into what makes the world and characters breathe.
Agreed researching everthing would just take too much time. And odd that authors seem to be the target of this. For example do people with issues with Card or Rowling shop at Wal Mart or drive a Ford?
But as I have said elsewhere, if we try to cancel the works of people we disagree with, libraries, museums and concert halls would all be fairly empty and quiet.
From my own experience, I was shocked to hear about Marion Zimmer Bradley after loving Mists of Avalon. In that situation, the publisher apparent set up a trust/charity for proceeds from those works.
I think the problem is that people equate opinions with actions, and I think they do this because they subconsciously believe that holding a certain opinion makes them virtuous. And it's a lot easier to hold an opinion than it is to actually help anyone.
Love this video. You point out a lot of just how messy the whole thing is and how we can't be expected to keep on top of everything. I think everyone's line in the sand is different but there has almost been no things I will stop engaging with if I already like the thing when I find out the person is amoral. I take it almost the exact opposite way as many people - I refuse to let this person's shitty personality change my love for something, even if it's something they made or are responsible for. That gives them the power, and they shouldn't have that power over me.
However sometimes emotions are just emotions. I used to listen to Lost prophets and I have literally never listened to a song by them again after revelations came out about their singer (don't look it up). Also if I'm more casually interested in something, it will definitely kill my vibes. I was a casual fan of Hedley but the singer is a huge scumbag so my emotional attachment to their music isn't stronger than my disgust of his actions. Maybe that's the thing? Maybe there's an "attachment/disgust" ratio 🤣
Regarding Cixin Liu, maybe more has come out since the initial NYT article that everyone blasts him for but if we're still just using that article as a basis, I'm extremely sus about it. But open to changing my mind if he has said further comments.
You told me you got angry about Stephen King in this comment and it was LIES
Anyway agree with absolutely everything you said.
My first time being confronted with a problematic author of books that I had read that meant something to me was with Orson Scott Card. Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead really had an impact on me but Card's extreme views disturb and sadden me deeply. I no longer read his new work and debate with myself if I'll ever return to his old work but I'll never regret having read them or disavow the good things I took from them.
It’s an unfair standard, no one questions the values of dickens, or Dostoyevsky. Be smart,use your logical brain and separate the art from artists. I loved three body and didn’t even know Liu was controversial. I still don’t care, his book is a masterpiece. Your loss if you wanna have an ego and think you are so important that you would actually influence the public opinion. No one cares that much about what you say, and you close your mind off from reading a fantastic piece of art.
I agree that to pre-check authors, actors, musicians, etc. before we consume their work is unsustainable. It can also become a performative “gotcha” by people who want to virtue signal, which isnt helpful at all. (“Oh… you like Liu Cixin? I guess you don’t care about cultural genocide against the Uighurs.”) If you go back far enough in history (50, 100, 200 years?), essentially every artist is misoginistic, racist, or homophobic to some degree by modern standards. That shouldn’t mean that we shouldn’t be able to enjoy the art they produced.
Great video.. "bad" people can make good art.. I am against censorship in any form.. There is too much of this in our world. People trying to rewrite history or rewriting Roald Dahl's books to be more PC.. Just crazy.
Totally agree. History is dark and scary, and people are very complex and multilayered beings.
I've read everything by Cixin Liu translated to English for now (except Supernova Era, which I DNFd), and most of it after the scandal. I never made a decision not to read mainly because in his situation it might be politic to actually say he supports the Chinese government in everything, because well, he's it's the Chinese government, and he lives in China. Given the subject matter, I wouldn't put it past the Chinese government to put even an internationally known and awarded author into an "internment camp" for speaking out against it.
Secondly, I'd already read one of his short story collections, and I remember thinking about at least one of the stories, that it could be interpreted as going against the CCP's doctrine, and I wanted to know and read more.
That’s a great point. Context is sometimes more important. It’s easy to cancel a person from an armchair than to know the full context of their actions/story. If someone lives in non democratic country, them saying they agree with their government is simply different from anything for example Norwegian author might say.
1. All that matters is the writing. Everything else is marketing. The author should not have to change their views or lifestyle to suit some theoretical reader. Anything else is censorship.
2. If you only read books by people you already know you agree with, you will never learn anything.
3. When I was young, libraries and bookshops used to stock Mein Kampf. The people who were reading it were not endorsing Hitler, they were trying to learn from history. Public libraries would stock Marx, Trotsky, Gramsci; historical figures from the extreme right and the extreme left. Because the purpose of libraries is to broaden peoples' ideas.
4. If your generation does believe you should only read from authors you "approve", then you have more in common with cult members than you would like to think. Tellling people what they can and cannot read is censorship. Isn't that happening in Florida just now? What is the difference?
Cancel culture isn't new - authoritarian regimes have always burned and banned books, after all. It's just finding it among people who presumably believe they are "progressive" that is confusing for people of my generation. What happened to the idea of respecting other peoples' views? You can do that without sharing them. Indeed, that is the test of your belief in freedom of expression.
I watched this in two parts because life, but it seemed like you touched on researching an author ahead of time or learning about them after, but I have a different conundrum:
What if you are in the middle of reading an author and you learn something awful about them? Do you finish the book? Does it color how you feel about the work, or how you feel about how you feel about it?
I had an experience in early 2023 where I was reading both a book of short stories and a book of poetry at the same time by an author who is also a youtuber. In between stories/poems, I looked something up about one of the poems and ended up down a rabbit hole of some genuinely awful stuff this guy was accused of doing (and was being investigated on by two separate governments, indicating substantial credibility). I genuinely felt sick about it, having been moved by his videos and his books, and I shoved them into my bookshelf so I could figure out if I could bring myself to finish them.
I'd love to hear your (or people's generally) thoughts on this kind of thing, if it's ever happened to you and how you think you'd proceed. I've still not pulled the books back out of my bookshelf, since I haven't determined how to proceed yet myself.
great video. we have come to a point where virtue signaling has become the norm for twitter folks and its great to see someone who takes a realistic approach to comsuming art and media.
Virtue signaling is something that has increasingly bothered me over the last few years. To the point where if I post about something online, I better be willing to contact my reps over it, I better be donating. I better be doing more than just making sure other people think I'm on the right side.
@@BookbornYeah it’s beyond exhausting to have an opinion these days
@Bookborn I think showing public support for an opinion or virtue can embolden others and foster a sense of community with shared values, but actions will always speak louder than words.
Although, one could say that putting your name and/or reputation behind something is an action itself.
@Bookborn what bugs more than virtue signaling, I think, because it's essentially non-existent in many ways, being social media click based "did my part to retweet" (whole other thing) like a bank note without gold behind or something old-fashioned, but what bugs me is self-censorship, oh wait you discussed this, but folks on a topic going, oh that author is "A duDe bRo, yo kno! And not a real so n so..." Well, have tou actually read their works? No? Then what makes you say so? Stuff like that. The narrowing of the mind as if that defines "social justice" and "progressivism", both of which I aspire to engage in but not in a flimsy label I'm good to go if you don't agree you're a..."bad person." See, I rounded back just barely!
I don't research authors before diving into a book unless Im trying to actively diversify my reading( i.e reading from authors from a particularly country, reading books by trans authors etc) and as a woman and person of color I often do find myself reading books by authors whose views I don't agree with. I often also don't mind reading from authors whose views are different from my own. Part of why I read is to dive into different perspectives. HOWEVER when I do become aware that an author/artist is actively using their platform/resources/money to cause harm then I can no longer support them i.e JK Rowling.
Great video as always. Cixin Liu is an interesting example. I was talking with Ben about this a while ago and he brought up a good point. For context Ben is Chinese and has spent time in China visiting his family several times growing up. He pointed out that China has state controlled media that often feeds you a certain narrative and the people living in China don't really have a reason to question their government. I know this in itself opens up a can of worms but it made me wonder if Cixin Liu actually believes what he said or if he's just regurgitating a msg he's been immersed in
Oh, good point - I have definitely researched authors to try and find own voices, or to make sure I'm reading from a source I trust, especially with non-fiction. What Ben said is sort of some thing I've been thinking about a lot in relation to Liu. It's hard though; we don't know the story, and we also don't know what it's like to live in other countries that have different perspectives/challenges/censorship levels.
Rowling's opinion on trans women not being women somehow negates all her generous charity works? Rowling donated around $200 million dollars to charity and actively works on helping children around the world. She holds an opinion that 99.9% of the world agrees with.
@@Bookborn There's also the fact that in China you need to be very careful what you say in public, particularly if you have a high profile (actor, writer, influencer, etc.). You WILL get not just yourself but also your family in trouble if you say the wrong thing. (Trouble = anything ranging from cyber-bullying to harassments to jail for the rest of your life) (source: am Chinese)
@@thomasc9036 Your percentage is inaccurate. There are indigenous communities that embrace trans individuals and it's actually a part of their culture. One example are the Muxes of Mexico. Anyways Im not keeping "tabs" or a running list on the good vs bad things authors do. Im just choosing not to support JK Rowling which is fine. My choice does not impact you.
Of course any of us can make the personal choice to not partake in a source of entertainment because we really struggle to separate it from the artist, but it's clearly crossing a line to say, "You shouldn't like this because I don't like something the author said." Why we think we have that kind of authority is beyond me. Holding yourself to a standard of agreeing 100% with every view of an author in order to "support" their work will mean that you must read nothing. Ever. From anybody. Not even your former self.
I disagree profoundly with the ideas and practices of many people in my life, not just the artists or entertainers I find enjoyable. If I were to demand such ideological homogeneity, I would end up a very lonely person, and maybe even blame that loneliness on others for not changing their opinions to more match mine.
One day, the zeitgeist will shift away from this mindset of thinking that we must all agree about everything all the time (I mean, how many dystopias warn against that very thing?), but it is not this day. In the meantime, I encourage people to drive to their local pharmacy and ask on which aisle they can find the chill pills. 😋
if I avoided authors I don't agree with I would never read anything and I would be missing out on great works. same is true about actors and directors or studios. If I enjoy a book I will recommend it if not then I will not. If someone wants to worry about not supporting someone who they don't agree with that is on them. Im glad you put in the edit about them not being bad vs disagree, I really appreciate it. You and I dont agree on a few ideas around culture but we agree a lot on books, I am willing to put aside your ideas because you are interesting and have good topics. in my opinion, It's actually very good to read ideas from multi viewpoints to help change or strengthen our own views. Thanks for the good videos, keep it up. Thanks
I don't understand the impulse to try and disassociate one's personal enjoyment of a work from the creator's personal opinions. If a creator is, say, bigoted, doesn't someone who opposes those views enjoying something about their creations that doesn't reflect their bigoted opinions serve as a fundamentally rebellious act?
For example, Roald Dahl had allegedly said some straight up anti-Semitic stuff. I'm Jewish. Dahl remains one of my most cherished wordsmiths. And if I were to think that he would have disapproved of my existence simply because of my ethnic background, that just makes me feel even more successfully like one of his fantastically unruly heroes which I remain inspired by.
I think the majority of the "background check" pearl-clutching is based around a fear that others will see us enjoying a work, and therefore imprint all of the personal values of its creator on us. As long as we can full-throatily reject that moronic notion at all turns, we should be able to love the art we love, and tell the bigots (who may have created some of it) to universally suck it.
Your last paragraph is a huge thing. It’s fear. Fear we will be judged for enjoying a book when an authors views are suspect. It’s hard to separate from even when recognizing it’s a silly notion
@@Bookborn Which is precisely why HONEST videos like this one you made are so important. Thank you ❤
Fear doesn't require people to be afraid, it just needs them to remain silent. Speak up, and it's broken instantly.
Resilience is key. Your attitude seems awesome to me.
Often when we judge others too harshly, we are merely projecting our own shadow onto them. That being said, I was genuinely stunned by the child abuse allegations against David and Leigh Eddings. I think actions involving violence or abuse are much more significant than contentious perspectives.
I was sad when I learned about that. Even though the authors have done some awful things, I still think the Belgariad is a cozy and heartwarming fantasy series with lots of great comedy and banter.
@@nightmarishcompositions4536 Yeah I fell in love with that series as kid. I loved The Malloreon, Belgarath the Sorcerer, and Polgara the Sorceress as well. It was all part of that early magic of discovery. That’s why the revelations hit so hard.
If everyone refused to monetarily support, in any way, any sort of art involving someone with whom they disagreed philosophically / politically, there would be a whole lot less art in the world. Generally speaking, people should get over themselves and learn to appreciate the art itself. With a little introspection, everyone will find that they, themselves, are imperfect hypocrites who couldn't stand up to the type of scrutiny that they want to apply to others.
I don't have to engage with the products of assholes committed to doing active harm to groups of people either. I find alot of the backlash to the idea of scrutinizing the beliefs and acts of artists a very cowardly way of saying that you can't be bothered to care about the well being of people and the culture you live in. There's plenty of great work out there and we don't need to deal with poisonous ideology to read/view/whatever it.
Enjoy the art. A recommendation of an artist’s work, regardless whether it’s a book, film, music, etc., is not equivalent to an endorsement of everything (or anything) that the artist has ever said/done in his/her personal life. There’s lots of authors, actors, directors, producers, and musicians whose art I thoroughly enjoy and would even recommend despite my strong disagreement with their lifestyle, their expressed moral/philosophical/political views, etc.