Miami Dice, Episode 147 - Five Tribes
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Tom Vasel, Sam Healey, and Zee Garcia take a look at this new Days of Wonder game
00:00 - Introduction
01:58 - Game overview
08:18 - Final thoughts
Buy great games at www.gamenerdz.com/
Find more reviews and videos at www.dicetower.com - Hry
APness!!! Lololol...and Tom left it in. A+!
Sounds like APness can be big in this, but some people like APness, and that's OK.
*****
I think we've all been there. A game is going smoothly, everyone is having fun, and then APness shows up to ruin all the fun.
temporaryscars I know what you mean! Had so many games go downhill as soon as APness slaps you across the face.
APness in games make them too long and hard in my opinion.
There are some guys who really suffer from having APness. Sometimes they take 20 minutes to do what other guys can do in 5.
Every 6 months or so, I come back to this video just to hear Sam's cautionary tale about AP-ness, laugh until I can't breathe, then carry on with my day feeling totally rejuvenated. This is in the Dice Tower hall of fame, for sure.
You gotta get a taste of that APness, huh?
AP-ness can always bring a smile to his face 😂
Holy shit! A whole 15 minutes of discussion. That's what I like to see :)
We have a timer from an old game that we use for this game when we play. If a player is taking a long time, we flip the timer on them. It works because we are friends and family and get a good laugh when we flip it. We don't hold the person to the timer. It's more of a message. :)
We appreciate your brutal honesty it really helps us all! Love the top lists.
Played the 2p game last night, LOVED IT! Hoping to play more than 2 next week.
I think this is the first game in a while Tom has given a so-so review that I still REALLY want to get. Yes it looks like it has almost no integrated theme, but sometimes that's the kind of game I'm in the mood for: something really crunchy with a modular board and a good deal of replayability.
Wow Warhammer really changed it's looks since when I used to play it ..... seems nice.
Just a tease guys, thanks for the vid. I personally really enjoyed this game.
For a couple of seconds, you guys had me thinking you would let "AP-ness" pass without comment.
That score sheet: Congrats on your win, Zee! I just played this a couple of days ago and really enjoyed it. Although I was surprised to see on your pad how little points you got from gold. I ended with more gold than I started the game with (as did my opponent, though maybe our play styled affected each others). There is this constant weighing of 'will the gold I spend profit me in the end(?)' and I enjoy that. Also, I liked the parts of my brain the game tickled. I have an AP friend though, and am not sure if i'll be playing with him. It's unfortunate that the game must be valued on the merits or shortcomings of its players, but it's a game and that is the way of things. Right now, I am really enjoying this one. Two APness's up! I still like Relic Runners more though. Little more random and I can plan it through to the end where this would fracture my noodle to do so. Thanks for your thoughts, guys!
Your right Zee this is one of the better games this year. AP i don't think it's a big problem cause my wife is AP prone and she doesn't have to much problem taking her turn. Bidding here isn't that of a stress problem you can see what moves are coming and you can see how much it is worth for you.
I love, love, love it. It's in my top 10 of all-time!!
Amazingly fun and deep game. As for bidding for turn order, Bruno has said making opponents pay is one of the core strategies of the game, very tactical and a little mathy, an optimal move includes what it cost to make it. Winner for mine at 3+ players, totally different game at the 2 player level but still good.
APness, well lest say that usually how i feel about a player who plays to win no matter if his taking 45 mins a turn, destroying the fun for all else involved. Try this, make a decision stick to it and have some fun, dont stress over winning or losing. ITS A GAME enjoy it.
There's an error at 0:36 mark - "Episode #146 - Warhammer 40000 Conquest".
I felt Sam's review was based on comparing Five Tribes to Dead of Winter instead of just Five Tribes as a game on its own. I was very surprised that Tom wouldn't give it any thumbs, making me think he really didn't like the game (borderline hating it) but for some reason, he didn't want to say...very confusing.
Looks like I'll be passing on this one. But I did love the extensive discussion and the fact that you all had very different opinions. That's really awesome!
One other thing - how come Eric's introduction text doesn't mention Zee? This isn't the only time Zee's been on a Miami Dice review. Surely you guys could ask Eric for an alternate intro text that includes Zee, for the times he's participating.
I agree with Tom. This game is "point soup" and APness in a box. I can imagine it taking 5 hours with some people. If I pick one up, I'll grab a chess clock for it. But I think I'm passing on this one.
This reminded me that 7 Wonders also has a lot of ways to score (and color score sheets also :D), so, a points salad too :) Though, maybe a tad more thematic as you get points for buildings, "conquests", miracles, "science".. :)
No, it's not really luck that your opponent doesn't see his best move. If that were true, then chess is a luck based games for the very same reason. Most would agree that there is no luck in chess.
If it isn't luck, then what is it?
This reminds me of the problem that I have with the game Puerto Rico. In order for you to be able to make the move that you planned, the player(s) before you had to make the play(s) that you envisioned for him/them. When one player says to another, "You were supposed to do THAT, now I can't do what I wanted to do, and it's YOUR FAULT!", that's not luck. That's the symptom of a game that has fallen victim to overanalysis. IMHO, Puerto Rico has already reached that point, and it's why I'll never have fun playing Five Tribes.
Thanks for the review. I agree with Zee. This looks like an interesting game. I think I'll buy it. It'll make a great family game.
Thanks again guys. You make a nice team, even though I didn't agree with all you said!!!
Analysis para... APnes...etc... zzzzz...
Best game of 2014 by far! In my game group there is almost no AP. You are always preparing two good moves, so if a oponnent messes with one, you have a back up plan. And the slave thing, it's not the main topic, it is like using Sheep on games will affect vegetarians, use wood as a commodity will affect the green piece and so on...
Tom feels like he's trying to put himself in the shoes of potential players - good! That's what makes him a good reviewer. The game seems very heavy and abstract. Thanks for being an honest reviewer.
This is one of my favorite games. As long as a game is balanced point salad I have no problem with it. Its to bad that he doesn't like it :( You can tell by how he explained the rules that he didn't really like it. You don't get 10 bonus points for having the most yellows. 2:35
When somebody gets rid of all their camels, they also win the game 8:09 (I always love 2+ possible ways to end a game)
At least Sam is trying to like the game.
And if you are worried about AP just put a timer in the game, say 2 minutes. I never need more than 2 minutes to think of a move, I've usually already planned 3 options before my turn - the reason a lot of people get analysis paralysis on this game is simply that they don't pay enough attention, they keep checking their phone or talking to other tables. This is a thinky game and requires attention!
***** I admire you. My main gaming partner will take his turn and then immediately take his phone out while I take my turn. I've just stopped vocalising my moves and now he loses a lot because he has no clue what I'm doing. I told him once that board gaming was supposed to be about social interaction and he just said "whatever man".
Having a timer typically increases AP since you're trying to process information faster which actually slows down your processing ability.
AP Proneness is a person problem, just like Alpha Gamer. Like how you wouldn't play co-ops with an alpha gamer, you should avoid AP inducing games with people prone to AP.
Luke Hector Yes I agree with what you say about people not paying attention. Also the timer is ok depending on the situation. The problem with Five Tribes is clearly that you cannot plan too far ahead since this game is slightly similar to mancala/congka with its movement of the meeples. Hence you cannot plan ahead as the board will be completely different by the time it gets to you.
That just makes it tactical.
Add sand timers, it helps the AP and adds theme :)
That ain't luck, Sam.
Then what is it?
Luck doesn't have to be dice, even odds or cards.
Lacking oppurtunity of full insight into which of multiple outcomes will occur makes the result luck from this POV, even if certain outcome/s are much more likely.
Betting on a winning horse is luck.
There is degree to luck too.
"through sheer luck"
"with a little bit of luck"
usmub yewskriimskoop It's not luck if somebody makes a tactical decision that works in or against your favor. To call it luck denotes that their actions are the result of pure chance or unknowable factors, which I guess takes the sting out of being outmaneuvered. Somebody makes a move that blocks me out of an opportunity? Oh well, I suppose I was just "unlucky" that they decided to make that move instead of deciding to make another move.
Steve Gale You misunderstood the point being made. It's the other way around: if my opponents makes a move that lets me make more points than I would have if he would have made the optimal move, that's luck. He just didn't see the optimal move. There's no strategy involved at all at this point. Nothing that I did influenced that particular bit of action, so as far as I'm concerned it's pure luck it happened.
usmub I haven't missed the point. Rather, you (and Sam) have misappropriated the word "luck" to interpret any factor that's beyond your direct control as being the whims of fate. There's no such thing as luck "as far as you're concerned" or "from your POV". That's just reductive reasoning. An opponent making a decision is not luck, unless his move was based purely on a random action. Planning your own turn is not the sole skill involved in playing a game. There's also watching your opponents to anticipate the results of their actions.
I'm not really intrested in the game (Where are you Dead of Winter?) but it was nice listening to your conversation and different opinions. It would be awesome if you guys could do that more often and not only with "big" games.
You got at the game from a lot of different angles. Good discussion.
AP drops significantly after the first game. Special ability tiles are fun and help add to the replayability.
+1 for APness at 16:30 lol! Ah man I miss Sam
Easily one of the best games of the year
How did you guys score 64 points for the yellow viziers?
Loved the debate about this game.Very entertaining.
I wouldn't expect Zee to love this game that much...
Doesn't shock me. Zee is the most into abstract games, and if you ignore the pasted on theme the game look like an abstract game like chess.
Christopher Smith I think Zee has also expressed love for other "point salad" games, right? I expected Zee to dig it too. Not shocked at all that Sam wasn't a big fan of it.
The surprising part was that Sam was actually a bigger fan than Tom. Same gave it one strong thumbs up, while Tom said he was neutral. Before I watched the review, I predicted that Sam would strongly dislike it.
APness? I thought the were minarets?
That was a very surprising verdict across the board, but I love this game! Much prefer this to the overhyped Dead of None Of The X-Roads Activate Winter game. And considering I prefer CoOps usually, that is saying something.
Ha ha, I can see that many will love it and that's cool, but for me it has too many issues that bug me about it. Still would happily play it though if it was offered.
I have Dead of Winter and the only thing that bugs me is you tend to get the same crossroads cards pretty often. (the ones that activate when the player has a survivor in the colony, or does a search). Stuff that most people do every turn. However, it's so awesome when the other ones do activate. Every time i play there'll be one or 2 that i've heard before and a couple new ones.
I don't hate Dead of Winter, but I do think it is overrated and overpriced.
Agree with Tom here; though I admit that I've only played it once.
By the way... I simply looked at this game (without first playing it) and instantly thought... "Oh boy... this is going to be AP city with LOTS of options each turn." I also had to look to see if Feld's name was on the box. heh
Wish this game played more people. My group normally has 5 or 6 people
thank you so much for a great panel review. this way you see the game from multiple viewpoints and can make a better decision. i chose not to buy this game because AP ruins a lot of our games and i also hate bidding for play order.
"AP-ness" -Sam Healy.
The into says warhammer 40000 conquest but this is the 5 tribes episode. Just FYI.
Grab Djinns! With Djinns you have an ability you can take advantage of. This narrows down your choices, gives you focus and reduces AP.
A lot of the time I'll just bid 0 and see how the board changes by my turn and I still get a decent amount of points.
BAM! I nailed it. I knew Tom wouldn't be into this one. I did say that I might be wrong and he'll end up putting it on the best games of the year list, but it looks like I wasn't wrong in the end. ;-) Suck it, imaginary contrarian!
Great game. I feel like some of Sam's and Tom's criticisms of the AP "problem" is indicative of a player, not the game. Someone prone to AP is always going to make a game longer.
Love the game. Maybe the game most prone to AP than any other I enjoy...lol
Having taken a few Advanced Placement courses in high school, we would discuss the concept of AP-ness all the time, and of course snicker at it like immature idiots every time. Glad to see the term reach other places! :D
I love this game!
I got a chance to play this on the demo copy at a local game store. I agree with everything Tom sent here except one thing (it's a big thing).
1. Bidding for turn can be hard in games.
2. If you are playing with AP prone people this is not going to be a good game.
3. There is not much for theme.
4. The only turn that matters is the turn before yours (I played in a 2 player game so no big deal).
Because of all of this I did not expect to like the game. I played it because it was there and I was in the mood to try new things. Ok, now for the big thing. I loved the game despite all of the above. It just works. Maybe it's because I played Mancala as a child. Maybe because it is so unique. Either way I came out a big fan of the game.
Didn't play the game but I know people that will take forever to make their moves from what I saw.
Man, by the look of the box I though this was gonna be different.
Im actually kindda sad the game itself has barely any artwork. Gameplay is fine, but imagine this with colors and cool looking artwork on each board piece o.o
The kingmaker problem is much worse than AP.
The game becomes chaotic with more than 2 players.
It is luck, but it is not the dice-like luck, in the end, it means you play this game better than the other players. You are lucky because others might ignore the details. But, it is not that "luck" we usually talk under boardgame context.
at 0:37 the header is wrong...
Vat vee vants is a top ten lists
I think Tom's point is rather overstated. The pros of this game (strategic options, unique mechanics) far outweigh the cons (AP potential, abstractness). Outstanding production to accompany an outstanding game. Agree with Zee entirely.
"The desert horizon of nothingness" classic Game Whisperer.
What is this Mancala you speak of? There is only Trajan!
Which episode is this? you still need a proof watcher Tom.
Zee won on the game of the score card!
A-Pness. Good job Sam
I'm going the Sam & Tom route. Wanted to see what all the fuss was about and was left very meh. But then I love DOW. Its OK but have no interest in seeking out a further play.
I just don't get why a player might feel involved in this game in any way.
It feels chaotic and ultra-calculatory but at the end of the day it is balanced, un-themed as hell.
And it feels old.
It feels like a Kennerspiel des Jahres, you know: the special prize given by the "accountants-who-like-fun".
Even Terra Mystica feels like ameritrash compared to this.
I can't get in to games like this. I need a game that looks and plays good on a table. Games like this, that have minimal artwork and just a bunch of abstract pieces on the board don't do anything for me.
So it's looks over substance, eh? I guess I am from the other end of the spectrum. No matter how a game looks or ties into a theme if it offers enough comprehensible strategy and challenge.
It's busy but it's actually a great looking game on the table. And it does play well. Very fun but it can be thinky.
GrandElemental He said he likes games that look good and play good. I've never understood the whole, "if you like looks, then you must not care about gameplay" argument. You can have both, and both can be important to you. This game has substance, just little style. He (and I) want both.
GrandElemental
I'm just saying I'd like to have both . I'd like the game to look great on the table AND play well. This game doesn't look like much on the table. I like to be "wowed".
MagCynic Yeah, perhaps we've been spoiled with the many good-looking games that have come out recently. I see this game and it looks cool and all, but nothing about it grabs me and won't let me go.
APness, oh dear :p. I can't get into this. There's way too way much to think about. If you plan ahead you will have to analyse the entire board and consider hundreds of possibilities. I feel it is too much of a thinking exercise to enjoy yourself, there will definitely be someone who gets lost in thought.
Ha Ha Sam, looks like you can't count on Tom for a little editing to spare you some embarrassment! I think you should just go with it and make it a running joke. :)
Funny to see how Zee went full bias
It's a four player game...but it's called 5 Tribes?
There are five tribes on the board. White (elders), Yellow (viziers), Red (assassins), Blue (builders), Green (merchants). The tribes themselves do not belong to any player, but players 'manipulate' them in order to do moves/actions with them.
We cant playbdead of winter anymore. As soon as we found the traitor tanking problem it died for us.
Here it is our review. We hope you like the allegoric story at the begining. It's in spanish but English Subtitle is available.
czcams.com/video/-UsarJOQKic/video.html
I'd rather play Trajan, but this game was...ok. Not great, but not OMG amazing.
0:39 Episode #146 War hammer? You guys recently make too many mistakes
APness
Hahaha, A-Pness
Had totally the same experiences like Tom. Point salad, 10000 of possible moves every turn, so it does not really matters what you are doing on your turn, and the AP between the turns (it's only necessary what the player before you did), totally killed this overrated game for me. As a 2 player game it's a bit more interessting, but there are much better 2 player games out there. In 8/10 cases I would not agree to play this game. In my opinion really bad game design in many ways.
Love the company, designer, and imagery, but this one is definitely not for me. I'm with Sam, DoW >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5T.
Came to the exact same conclusions that Tom did. Okay, but overhyped.
It isn't overhyped. It is amazing. I have played it 20 times now. It plays fast in my group.
jaxommm I'm glad you like it. That doesn't mean everyone has to.
Exactly my thoughts. Tom nailed it perfectly. I also posted this on the Geek today, and now I see this video where Mr. Vasel himself backs me up...Strike!
[x] AP
[x] relatively boring enemy turns
[x] underused and unnecessary Djinn pile
-----
[x] Overhyped.
*****
I am pleased to know that you speak for everyone :)
I agree - good game, but not as good as the hype has made it out to be. Several things that severely detract from the praise it seems to be getting.
*****
Actually, you wrote "no overhype". YOU think the game is excellent, and flawless ... YOUR GROUP agrees. That does not mean there's "no overhype" or that the game is "excellent". It just means that, in YOUR opinion, that is the case. Your blanket statements imply that you are correct and that those who disagree are wrong, when that is not the case. We are both right. And we are both right to think whatever we want. There's no conflict of interest here. The issue is when you imply that others are wrong because they disagree with you.
Why do all games use meoples? I hate meoples!
Wow. Again no mention of the slavery controversy that surrounds this game??
Thank god!
Why would there be controversy over a slave card when there are so many games that feature murder and assassination? If murder is present in a game and is not controversial, neither should slavery.
MagCynic WHY do you expect every reviewer to mention it???
Considering the big fuss in the Dice Tower Guild about the slave card, it is a bit amusing that it wasn't mentioned at all... but it has been made hugely apparent by Tom that he soooo wants that particular thread to just die and go away, so I think avoiding even touching on it is his way of trying to not stir it up again. If he was a mod, he likely would have deleted that thread. heh (Surely a reason he wants to move the forums to his site... a bad move, if you ask me.)
That's because it isn't a "controversy" rather a storm in a teacup by some vocal BGG posters based on a few words that Richard Ham said.
The game looks great mechanically, but I can't get behind using slaves as a resource, it's just way too insensitive.
Carl Frodge Just like Wil Wheaton, you can call them Assistant or Helper
Carl Frodge The 2nd printing of the game fixes this. Slaves are replaced with Fakirs.
I'm aware. It makes me very happy
Carl Frodge They are historicaly accurate. Toughen up.
It's not a matter of being tough, it's matter of my personal feelings and tolerance of the subject and the way it's portrayed in games.
I hate this game
The position of DoW on slaves in the game is basically: this is just a game, and it
fits thematically.
I call BS on both points.
Its just a game that asks you to take on the role of slave
trader. Not cool for me. A game I have to hide when black friends show up? No thank you.
As to the point made that there is murder in games - I don't
play as a murderer. I'll play as the cop solving a murder,
I'll play as a soldier on the battlefield, but I don't need to
indulge a murder fantasy on board game night... or be a slave
trader.
In a game where the theme is practically nonexistent - Five Tribes is almost an abstract - how important was it to include slaves as a "good" to be purchased? Not at all.
Is there something else DoW could have done thematically as a substitute? Yes! The slaves allow you to increase the distance assassins can attack. How is that supposed to work? Are the slaves giving piggy back rides? how about the horses or camels? Wouldn't that have fit better thematically?
This looks like a game I'd really enjoy, but I'm passing on it until they fix this.
Slaves are accurate, not everyone is that thin skinned.
My black friends love it. What's the big deal. It's not real. In fps you are murdering people... It's not real though, right! Living life that politically correct would be so difficult and miserable.
I know this is 6 years later but...really? You wouldn’t be a slave trader or murderer just for the sake of a board game? I get that everyone has their tolerance levels (I think it wouldn’t be a good idea to have child raping as an option in a game) but slave trading in a board game is pretty tame by comparison.
I guess you’d be the kind of person who, if playing a Star Wars game, would never play as the Empire because “in real life, I’d never EVER destroy a whole planet with millions of innocent people on it!” 😱