Five Tribes | Rahdo's Final Thoughts
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2014
- Help Rahdo Run: / rahdo ❤️ Code of conduct: conduct.rahdo.com 🙂 And now...
A video outlining gameplay for the boardgame Five Tribes. For more game info, www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgam...
Part I: Gameplay Runthrough
• Five Tribes Gameplay R...
• (static cam) Five Trib... (static cam)
Part II: Extended Gameplay
• Five Tribes Extended G...
• (static cam) Five Trib... (static cam)
Part III: Final Thoughts
• Five Tribes | Rahdo's ...
In a 2 player game just ignore the pay for turn order rule and just take alternating turns.
Problem solved.
In the reprint the slave cards have been replaced with Fakirs...
Rah, seriously, I've been playing this game 9 times over the past 48 hours, this is an excellent game. It's got everything you like in a game: point salad, deep game play, multiple routes to victory. I played it 3p, so maybe that is better than 2p, but I still think this game has a lot going for it. It's one of those very tantalizing games which make it seems that so much can be accomplished at the beginning, but the resources nearly always get squeezed much much faster than you think, but yet you want to keep coming back for more to have that one glorious game where it all comes together. I know the slavery misstep was hugely off-putting, and sometimes Bruno's games are a bit kooky or random, but I think this one really hits a super clever balance between the mancala movements and the resource cards/djinns/5 meeple choices to balance play. Good wishes, Clumsy
We''ll have to agree to disagree -- I think Five Tribes is an excellent 2-player game. ;-) My wife and I have played is several times, and I think the "proof in the pudding" is that our scores are always close to each other, regardless of how turn order
works out, and regardless of which path to victory is pursued (going after market goods heavy, going after genies heavy, etc.) I also am not sure that I agree that having both of your moves back-to-back is "always the best option", as you say, because that means you are giving your opponent that same opportunity to take their turns back-to-back. I think it is more important to weigh turn order relative to marginal opportunity, which means, I am going to spend as little as possible early game, as I have a lot of opportunities to score points, but late game, I am going to bid strategically when my options are limited. In this instance, it may be better to take my moves back-to-back to limit the opportunities of my opponent, but I am going to have to pay for that strategy with victory points, making it a very costly choice.
Tom Rose i agree wtih most everything you say, except the fact that once the game hits "double turns", neither player is incentivized to break out of that pattern, because the player who does puts himself at a big disadvantage to the other player, as that other player effectively gets 2.5 turns...but i certainly didn't mean to imply that the game isn't balanced with its 2p approach, just that jen and I didn't like it because spending the majority of the game playing doubles turns feels wrong to us...
***** What about if: when beginning turn-order bidding, the only consideration is the person in the 1st place. Then bidding proceeds P1, P2, P1, P2 regardless of the previous setup (which may have been P1, P1, P2, P2)? Just a thought based on watching your run-through. Thanks for the great videos!
***** You say that if someone bids to make it so they are split up back to back they are at disadvantage, however what about if they went P1 P2 P2 P1 in first round and then P2 P2 P1 P1. If that way they have now given themself 3 turns in a row and could have done before other round. The only way play P2 could stop this (as far as I can see) would be to now use both bids to surrond your bids there by ending the back to back orders.
Ryan Weber yes, and that's another example of how common double or triple turns are in 2p, and as i said in the video, i think the game suffers for how common they are... the game is much better when those are the exception to the rule, instead of incredibly common...
Just recieved the game and we played a 3 player game. We really like it, it's easy to understand and everything is clear. Great game.
Agreed. I'm surprised it's rated as 2.9 on the weight scale on BGG. Sure, there are a lot of options, but almost every rule is intuitive & straightforward.
Just like when you take the time to show us all of the variables of each step of your run throughs, you take us with you, on your thought process on a particularly tough subject. I can honestly say I would have not considered any alternatives from a design point, but the ones you suggested make perfect sense and would 'lighten the load'. Kudos for making your opinion clear, and hopefully mitigating some of the flaming. Anyone paying attention should understand and commend you for even bringing it up. Keep up the great work!
Richard, so glad to hear your thoughts on this! It's always good to know I can come to your videos to hear analysis specifically of the two player experience, since that's how I end up playing most of my games. I also appreciate your articulation of your opinion of the slave card - it's something that's bugged me when reading about this game. I think it especially sticks out since the game represents all other people with meeples but puts the slaves as cards, which in my eyes dehumanizes the slave role even further and would just leave me uncomfortable in my role as a player.
Have you tried changing the 2 player rules so that you have to take alternating turns? For example you could bid like normal but then add up your biddings and the player who's total bidding is higher goes first and from then on you take alternate turns. Any thoughts on that?
RickT153 i think the auction for turn order is a pretty important part of the game...
There is already a discussion on BGG with possible 2-player variants provide by rahdo. However, the designer also defended the 2-player rules as they stand. So I guess it's up to your preferences. I am still quite excited to get this game in a month or two.
We only ever play Five Tribes two player and bidding for turn order is part of the tactics, in the games we’ve played we never ended up taking double turns for the entire game. Deciding whether it’s worth paying extra to take the first turn(s) is an important part of the strategy. Early on its generally not worth spending the extra cash as there are usually plenty of good moves to take, later in the game when there are less options taking those double turns and/or going first can become worth spending extra or at least forcing your opponent to pay a premium.
Thanks for sharing your views on this one Rahdo. Production choices aside, I'm just a little surprised that so many people have Five Tribes singled out for Gencon 2014 game of show. A super-mancala euro sounds awesome in the abstract, but I have a hard time seeing how it could be anything except AP bait in practice. And as you said, that turn order track just makes it even more AP inducing.
Would gladly give this one a try, but after this video, I'm sure I can wait until it comes into wide distribution.
well, it's a super colourful, attractive game that plays silky smooth and is great for 3 or 4 players, and it was arguably the best light-mid weight euro of Gencon, so it gets to stand out in a much loved demographic that's not widely represented at Gencon, so there's that as well... :)
I saw a lot of these videos and when I opened the box the slaves were switched with fakirs.
I am also struggling to find alternative words for the assassination
My fiance and I love this game! We watch your reviews and love them because we mainly get to play only two player versions. I didn't mind the turn order but now that we have strategies after several run through games, we hate the turn order mech for two players and for some reason reminded us of race for the galaxy although that one seemed ok... it's been several month but I guess that basically is a multiplayer solitaire game anyways. Anyway, we gave up this core component of the game to just play the main game and have a lot of fun in more of a back to back chess feel. Thanks as always for your great run through plays and insights. Next game for us is lewis and clark :)
I like playing it as a 3P game
Thanks for the review and for voicing your opinion even at great risk. I like how you mentioned Europe and Malta yet many people are arguing assuming you're in America or American? I'm curious what your origins are.
I played this on Tuesday and loved it. I wasn't bothered by the slaves at all. You're right that perhaps they could have chosen an alternate instead of making light of the past thought that slaves are property and can be thrown around for nothing. I really want to purchase this game but part of me does hesitate. They definitely did make light of the subject matter and made the game bright and colorful (a bit too bright, I don't like the blue or pink colors...) but if you read the into text, it's not about uniting the tribes it's about manipulating the tribes to become sultan. Effectively using everyone and everything you can for power. Even invoking dark djinn for further control and sacrificing slaves (or elders, which is also messed up) to do so. There are some decisions that definitely seem weird here. It is days of wonder, it is bright and colorful, but the underlying tones are dark and terrible. If you can ignore that, then it's a great game, but if not, then what could have been a much more accessible game will be a no for some people. It's weird I'm more comfortable with the darkness of eldritch horror than the things in this game. But, still haven't decided if I'll purchase or not. I was already considering shadows over Camelot (totally different game I understand) but a game that is awesome that I need and that doesn't have the questionable elements. Anyway, we all have our scruples and have to stand on what we believe to be right and wrong. It is a game and therefore is only opinion. Real slavery, real murder, real elder and slave sacrifice are wrong I think we can all agree. So whether it's OK to make so light of it in a game is up to each person. Thanks for provoking my thoughts!
ohbeone hi, i am actually an american, but i've lived in europe for the last 10 ears or so :)
I think 2P is much more AP prone with the back to back turns. But like others have said, do the alternating turn if you want to change it up
Would love to play this game. Great reviews as always!
*****, have you considered putting the cards in sleeves and printing out stallions/gems/etc to cover the slave cards? Way I see it is that if it's your game you can adjust parts to make a more appealing game for you.
It doesn't sound like you're keeping this one anyways, but you could apply the same idea to other games like Greed if particular parts bother you guys enough.
i could, but that's a lot of work, and it's easier just to move on to another game (there are so many) that didn't make these oddball production choices, imo :)
I usually play 2-player games, so your opinion on this was important to me. At best, you have at least kept me from making a flying leap into buying this game right away, (due to 2-player 'hazards'), which is good since I could do with saving a few dollars. As for your thoughts on 'other' aspects of the game...it's your channel, your review, your time in this world. Speaking openly and honestly is what makes you who you are and I value being able to count on that part of you. Thank you for your time in making this review, and for being real.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion... You're an asset to the BG community... Thanks for your work R.
"For some people it might be a real issue that you are forced to play pink"
Damn Pink-o-phobes, lol.
Although I don't necessarily have an issue with the choices Days of Wonder made, I do understand where you are coming from. Through the tons of video run-throughs I have seen you record, it completely makes sense that you would have an issue with that part of the theme especially since how many of us have come to know you through your videos. I, in fact, do like the "stallion" idea better. I also like the comment someone made about the turn order variant that would force players to alternate. I wonder if that make a difference to you and Jen or if that would break the game. But as always, Richard, a fabulous and well done run-through and a final thoughts with great insight.
Could you just bid for 1st turn, then take alternating turns? In a two-player game, I mean.
+Eddie Inzauto maybe but i'm not really inclined to spend time playtesting variants :)
Rahdo it's not playtesting a variant. Just do it and your particular issue is solved.
With four players, it's AP big time! I think this game naturally lends itself to a two-player version. And just drop the bidding and just make it like chess, I move, then you move, then I move again.
even though I love the game, and love bidding, the bidding is a bit of an overkill, although I still wouldn't do away with it. I also wish the djinns were a little more doable too, resources are very tight for everything except claiming spaces for camels
Thats a cool idea you had about using stallions instead of slaves. Honestly the slave cards dont bother me because ITS JUST A GAME but now im thinking it would be very co to make se custom stallion cards! Nice work man.
I just tottaly agree with your statementes here, about theme poor choices and gameplay.
Thanks for being sincere, and thanks for the review!
Completely disagree with you on both the 2 player game rules (love it at 2 player the most) and the thematic controversy, but thank you for your hard work and bringing great (and not so great) games to the public's attention!
I love this game
Totally agree. The ability to go twice in a row is not overpowered in a 2 player game, is easily countered/prevented, and seldom worth the point expenditure to pull it off.
I get your problem with the slave cards. A part of board gaming, for many people, is pretending to be a person, in that time/place, accumulating wealth and power or adventuring or protecting, etc. I’m like that. I often like to make decisions, in the game, like how I would in real life. If the slave thing were one of a set of asymmetrical powers, that might’ve worked better. There could be a choice to be the character with slaves. Sometimes we like to pretend to be evil and do evil things in games, too. Other times/people, the power could just be left out. We like to have the choice, and it seems like buying slaves is a pretty prevalent part of this game. (This version, anyway. The reprint has it so that you’re hiring fakirs, I’ve read.)
This is super late, but just wanted to share my thoughts and say thanks for the playthrough. I’m a sucker for that mancala mechanic!
rahdo, I intend to draw your portrait and call it "Speed Review" because you speak so so so fast like you are on speed..
Anyway, I absolutely love your videos, I am a big big fan and you helped me choose many games. Great style of creating content! My regards mister!
You make a good point about the slave card here, and I think it boils down to context. The difference between this and Freedom: The Underground Railroad is the atmosphere created by the game. Five Tribes feels like a light, happy, Disney-esque romp through 1001 Arabian Nights - and the card seems very out of place in this context. Freedom is a biopic of the slavery era. The subject matter is central to the game, and it treats it with respect and gravitas.
I have no problem with the black cubes in Puerto Rico, or the red meeples in Lewis & Clark, and truth be told... this slave card doesn't "offend" me - but it does feel odd.
Re: the blue and pink colors for two player. I'm guessing they chose those two colors since they seem to have a strong presence in the middle east (pink especially, where it's not seen as a feminine color as it is in the west). Anyway, just my two cents. I'm never particularly unhappy when a game forces the two-player variant to use pink, since it means it'll be easier to get my daughter to play (as in River Dragons, which uses pink and black for two players).
Rhado, thank you for another excellent review and thank you for your authentic opinion regarding some of the thematic elements of this game (I.e. Slavery). I have not read through all of the other comments except a few that downplay your view and I don't know if you will ever even read this, but I thought I would weigh in anyway.
The greatest point you make on the inclusion of slavery in Five Tribes' game mechanics is that the designer and/ days of Wonder could have replaced it with an alternate thematic equivalent - stallions, gold, rubies, etc. this, as you pointed out, would have had no impact on gameplay and would have stayed true to the theme. I state this not to make a statement that slavery never happened or it "is just a game", but to suggest that game companies, like other businesses (pro-sports) and organizations (education) need to be thoughtful about what they are branding.
As an educator, I believe in looking at and seeing the learning from issues like slavery, racism, domestic violence, etc and am not opposed to using games as a vehicle to reach and inform people around the challenges the human race has overcome and continues to address. However, games that flippantly add a thematic element that trivializes such human indecency shows little thought and potentially invites offhanded comments during gameplay that does little to move people forward in their thinking.
Thank you once again for your thoughts, I truly enjoy all the work you do to promote games and the hobby.
Sincerely, Dave Sands
Dave Sands very well said. it's the gratuitous nature of the use of slavery in this game that really gets to me... i wish I had thought to use the word gratuitous in the video, actually. your summary is spot on perfect though, and exactly what i was trying to say...
It's interesting to see that as the year has passed, this game became the "go to 2 player game" in the community :D Ratings has shown that people just adore this as a 2 player game.
GAME OF THE SHOW
The argument isn't bad, but it doesn't bother me.
That a nd the fact that I am sure they wouldn't have sacrificed horses cause they would of been considered too valuable by those people at that time. (or was that later in time?)
Days of Wonder made Memoir 44 too with human soldiers who get killed and die. Same thing. Would that be offensive to all the families who lost their fathers and brothers in WW. Come on.
The slave cards were a problem for me as well. Yes, I know that slavery happened, but I'm just not really interested in role playing that particular part of history. I was glad they made the decision to change them.
Hi rahdo what game do u prefer Wallnut Grove or Five Tribes im looking for a game to play with friends and my bro only sometimes... please respond quickly!
Damjan Nikolov walnut grove for us, though it's very hard to find i understand
I agree with you about the slaves. Humans are humans regardless of how shamefully they have been and in some places still are treated in the world. However, i had even more difficulty wth using djinns (demon) as playcards. All in all I think you did a great review and I thank you for your insights.
Just call them workers!
I would also mention assassins in the same context. if there were no slaves in this game I am positive it would be the next thing that would bother you or would bother your SO :)
as i mentioned elsewhere, if the same level of artistic fidelity were applied to the game's assassination mechanism that is applied to the slavery mechanisms, then yeah, it would have likely bothered me quite a bit as well... :)
and for the record, I also agreed in this the video that this makes me a hypocrite... :)
Richard just wanted to say I could not agree more. Just reading the rules before the game was released bothered me with the use of slaves. I'm glad you said something and didn't avoid the topic. Is it a part if history? Yes. Is it just a game? Yes. But for some of us it's a very upsetting part of history that should not be taken lightly. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and no one should condemn one view or the other, it's all just opinions. Enjoy the hobby everyone :)
Rahdo, if you like this game's mechanics but are put off by elements in the theme, you might be interested in knowing that Bruno Cathala also made a sister game to this one called "Longhorn", a lighter 2-player game that uses the mancala idea. The theme revolves around cattle rustling, lol.
Silver Fang yeah, i'd seen it before... would like to give it a try :)
It's would have been nice if there was a digital edition of this game. I am confused whether or not to buy it for 2players.....
my opinion about the 2p game was definitely in the minority... most people seem to like it just fine :)
If you don't want the game, i'll buy it from you.
stlsalv59 i'll be doing an auction in the next few days actually, and it'll be listed there :)
Great game
Although I disagree with your criticism of the thematic choices, I hope you don't shy away from voicing your opinion on such matters in the future, because I found it very interesting
Would this work as a variant for 2 players (sorry if this has already been mentioned, I've got bogged down by the slavery conversation.
Each player gets an extra marker. On your turn to bid, you can use a normal marker and pay accordingly, OR you can use your bonus marker - this doesn't cost you anything, and isn't an actual turn, but can be used to block spaces on the bidding track.
interesting idea, though tbh folks should try the game for themselves before they decide it doesn't work 2p. i was pretty clear in the vid that this was just our opinion after a small number of plays, and we could be wrong! :)
It's a similar idea to the 2p version of Felds It Happens - I can't take all the credit!
I'll be happy to take your copy of 5 Tribes off your hands and try it out
Neil Blaiberg steal from the best! :)
Neil Blaiberg I reckon they gave each player a second pawn to speed up the game and keep it from lasting too long. Think about scale going from 3 to 2. So any variant would somehow have to account for this.
But then again if it adds to AP it wouldn't make things faster...
I was going to ask what happened to the board because it is a mess of meeples, but then I realized it is supposed to be that way. Eh, looks alright enough, but I will stick with Abyss.
As far as the whole "slave controversy"...I didn't have a problem with it but I do respect that it bothered you. And I'm glad that they changed it for players that had a problem with it.
I DO hate that the expansion didn't include both Slave and Fakir tiles/cards, though, as I now have a version of the game with mixed iconography. Which not only REALLY bothers my OCD, but has confused a new player twice in my previous games.
As for the rest of what you said...I kind of disagree there too as I think the game becomes a lot more strategic with only two players. But I'm not really an AP prone player and I've heard from others that this game really brings out that side in them.
Anyway, despite my disagreements, thanks for the hard work and for putting together the video for us all.
I think the game looks great, but it seems to have the same feel as Istanbul, and that game seems to scale better with the different player counts than this.
It's been 7 years but I just wanted to say thank you. What you spent so much time discussing matters a lot to me. Finally there's one copy at reasonable price and affordable shipping, and your video changed my mind.
I'd like to play games with my kids. There is no issue letting them understand the historical truth, even through games, but the thing you said is right, slavery is not for fun. Still, thank you.
hi there! you might want to check that copy a bit closer, because after i made my video, the publisher went and updated the cards for future printings, replacing the slaves with fakirs which was a big improvement. and so you might have found one of those copies!
and even if it's one of the original "slave copies" you can get the fakir card replacements here: boardgamegeekstore.com/products/five-tribes-fakirs-dhenim :)
@@rahdo Thank you. Waiting for a reply now.
I'm a little late to the conversation but I just picked up the game and after hearing that the fakir were slaves in a previous edition my initial thoughts were that of the vocal majority on here, namely of the opinion that it's accurate to history so what's the deal? I read your thoughts on BGG and it hit me with your comments about Disney movies and how they handle tragedy. Something so dark and literally evil doesn't belong in a game that is focused on family and cartoony togetherness. Anyways, I thought I'd pitch in for the small group of people who's initial opinions were changed by you sharing yours. Keep up the awesome work!
thank you for sharing that, i really appreciate it! :)
Hey Richard, don't know if you saw this (faidutti.com/blog/?p=3780) piece on Bruno Faidutti blog, thought it was relevant to the other side of the argument:
Eng Excerpt: "It all started twenty years ago, when I first played Settlers of Catan. One of the first remarks made by a fellow player when going through the rules was the ironic « where are the natives? ». This might have been more a striking issue for French players than for German or English speaking ones because the French language has only one word, Colon, where English has two with very different meanings, Settler and Colonist. So, the game is known in France as « Les Colons de Catan », which can mean both « Settlers of Catan » or « Colonists of Catan ».
Les Colons de Catane, recently renamed Catane, a more politically correct title.
And, indeed, natives are nowhere to be seen in Catan, except may be as the lone black robber bandit who is not really resisting invasion, since he is hired on turn by the different players. I remember my first idea for a Catan expansions was a new resource, magic mushrooms used to cast spells - this was also the time when I was discovering Magic the Gathering . The second one was to add a native resistance player. I didn’t finalize either one.
Edward Saïd’s Culture and Imperialism was published in 1993, more or less at the same time as Catan and Magic the Gathering, but I read it only twenty years later. I was struck by the similarity between our initial reactions to Catan and what Saïd says of XIXth century European novels, and specifically of Jane Austen’s Mansfield Park, where he thought slaves, though nowhere to be seen, are always in the background. Of course, Saïd’s analysis of XIXth century novels cannot be simply pasted on contemporary boardgames. Times have changed, European countries have no colonies any more - and by the way Germany, from where modern boardgames originate, never had that many. But this striking similarity must mean something.
This goes farther than the naïve politically-correct euphemization of historical issues that can be found in some games. The problem in Puerto Rico is not that there are slave tokens, it is that they are called colonists. The problem with Saint Petersburg is that one of the worst episodes of forced labour in modern European history is treated as a good spirited competition between hardworking craftsmen."
Hahahahaaahaahaa i skimmed it, but TBH I was put off almost immediately because Puerto Rico doesn't simply call slaves colonists as bruno claims. PR replicates the colonist experience, not the slave experience (slaves were, as a general rules, not put in charge of running universities, or business offices, for instance - colonists were, which is what PR demonstrates).
I think the point is that, for the time-period, and the activities being conducted it is ABOUT slavery, even if it isn't present in the game explicitly - or in that case if the jobs aren't divided between different workers. You can't say colonists even had an experience without acknowledging that some of those colonists in the game (like the ones you can use as money) are slaves. If anything it makes less sense to me that it isn't mentioned in PR, but is mentioned in a fantasy desert game revolving around genies. ...
Hahahahaaahaahaa i certainly agree that it's nonsensical to include it in five tribes! :)
my feeling on the whole topic is, by all means, include slavery in your simulation if you want to, more power to you, but do it for a reason. do it because it means something. do it to say something about the time or place you're replicating. do it to illuminate the human condition (ala endeavor, or freedom underground railroad). and do it in a way that is tonally consistent with the rest of your game. don't do it gratuitously, ala 5t.
But by the same token, games are supposed to be fun... they don't *need* to be a "statement piece" about the harsh realities of humanity. As long as you're not sowing misinformation, I don't have any problem with a game not simulating every aspect of what its replicating, and so i'm fine with leaving slavery out of a simulation too (or leaving the holocaust out of WWII games, or leaving the horrors of human suffering from rampant disease out of pandemic), in the interest of making a fun and entertaining game.
As i said in the video, its all about the tone of the game you're trying to create. And 5T's inclusion of slavery is tone deaf, IMO :)
I agree on the slave issue. I almost considered not buying it because of that & the "demons" although if you think of them as Aladdin's genies then I guess that's a little bit better. Then there's the assassins.... Maybe just reduce the # of slaves in the deck since you can play by your house rules. That being, when you are playing 2 people you can just take out the bidding altogether & just play one then the other throughout the entire game & roll a dice to choose who goes first.
Sorry to bug you again. I was wondering if there is any other game similar to this where you move your players by dropping them one at a time to a different square? (Like the similarities of Paperback & Cuisine a la Card)
that mechanism is called a mancala, and there's a bunch of them available. check this list for some ideas: boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/182822/games-mancala-mechanic
Thanks so much! :D
They're not demons. They're genies, which are not inherently good or bad in the Arab mythos this game draws from.
Final point on the slavery issue.
I wonder if this is a European vs North American thing? Maybe not, but slavery never seems as emotive a topic in Europe as it does in North America. Bruno is French / Swiss, so possibly he never viewed it as 'a big deal'.
Also if I'm being totally thematic here, slaves were worth much less than stallions or rubies (sad I know), so it wouldn't make sense for these valuable resources to be the most common in the marketplace.
Just out of interest Richard, does slavery in games such as Spartacus (I know, it's not your type of game) bother you? In that game you buy slaves in the auction house and then put them to fight in the arena.
@Tierbandiger: I didn't say it teaches a lessen, it rather works as a reminder... the education is of course needed and mandatory in advance. I just don't see a necessary discussion about slavery in a game where it is, maybe unnecessarily, integrated for historical purpose only. But isn't it good that it already works, and again maybe unvoluntarily, as a reminder, as a kickstarter for questioning what slavery was or better is? And today almost everyone is an obedient wage slave. We should not only condemn words, we should look and question what the stand for in a certain context to a given time. I am just saying... and this is now open, as everything everyone could state, for individual criticism and interpretation.
Can I collect another colour meepels which is not same as the one which I dropped lastly.! (Meeting the same last colour meepel condition)
if your last meeple you dropped was green, you pick it back up and any other greens that were on that space (there has to be at least one green there)
Rahdo I dropped green meeple and that tile was having green meeple but I want to take blue meeples from that tile.!! Can I take that?
@@niralishah1645 nope
Rahdo, just wanted to say that I agree with you, not just about this game, but the other things you said (though I have not watched the Endeavor run through so can't say for sure I agree with that). I find it odd that people get so defensive over these opinions.
Oh and by the way, I am neutral on the Redskins name thing. As someone that lives in the Washington DC area, I can really understand both sides of the debate, though I would admit that those for keeping the name have fairly weak arguments. DC should be able to stomach another name change, just as we did with the Washington Bullets.
Bruno Cathala needs to step up & do an expansion pack & include something to substitute the slaves with. Or maybe as a family who buys the game they can get something else to substitute them on their own.
they did replace the slaves with fakirs in the 2nd printing of the game, and they also made replacement cards available (through the boardgamegeek store) for folks who have the first edition as well :)
YAY!!
Great review: thank you for talking about how weird and incongruous it is that slavery appears in the game. An ahistorical fantasy game with genies and a theme that seems like it's supposed to be super fun. You are 100% right. Please don't worry about being flamed. People defending the inclusion of slavery in this game are nuts.
Mike Ruberry yeah, it's been really odd how many folks jump forward say they like(?) slavery in the game, I guess... very strange
How do you feel about the murderous elements of the Assassins?
Don't expect Days of Wonder to regret anything. Sadly, the game is selling very well in spite of it (I certainly won't be buying this), and they are reaping the benefits of free publicity that the 'slaves' furor is attracting. I had the same problems with a very popular IOS adaption of a board game that featured copious amounts of animal 'slaughter' as a main feature. My wife and I are vegetarians, so this was not fun to see. I talked to the designer and they agreed to at least change the constant references to 'slaughter' to something slightly more palatable, like 'processing'. The hate mail I received on BGG for that little change was of course, unending.
shatnershairpiece yup, it's dumbfounded by that sort of rage-response...
Or you could use the 4 different player markers and each person play as 2 different people...
Unless you changed scoring to, like, only score your best/worst "player" then how would that be any different than the normal 2-player game? And if you did change it so you only scored on 1 of your colors at the end, I would think it would lead to WAY more AP.
Though I suppose you could just...play with only 1 marker each.
The slavery bit didn't bother me as much when I played the game, but I see your point for sure. There is no reason it needed to be included and something different could have simply been swapped in as the theme utilizing the slaves is pasted on in my opinion.
I empathize with your point as there are some games that just bother me as well. Take the game "Tomorrow" for example. The goal of the game is to commit more genocide than the other players. Something about that just feels wrong to me. But, I am a bit of a hypocrite as I am fine with assassinating someone in a different game. Things click differently for us and it doesn't mean we are right or wrong, it is just how it makes us feel.
I am wondering if I have enough Jaipur camels to replace the slave cards...hmmm?
I don't have that game, but would enjoy hearing whether that is a potential solution. I guess that the issue could be solved with cubes or chips of different colors drawn from a bag.
***** I will find out next week when I get my copy. I don't mind the slave cards myself, but my wife wouldn't like the idea.
jaxommm Hmmm...there are 11 camel cards in Jaipur and 18 slave cards in Tribes...so might be tricky...depends on how commonly they are used in the game...a little retheming might be in order!
Keep on mentioning additional information to give the viewers and potential buyers the whole picture. I think this makes a good review great. All the facts and also some criticism. A parent like me might end up scarifying slaves, while having tea and biscuits with my family. Not cool.
The designer must do their homework and research right, sniper naming or in this case sensitive topics. For Five Tribes they should have taken into account that most people buy days of wonders due to their high production quality and family type games (ticket to ride, small world, relic runners). Game theme should match the target group and expectations.
Simple solution would be to offer a batch of cards that replace those cards.
They replaced "slaves" by "fakirs" in future editions. It makes sense because fakirs maybe are "worshiping" the djinns, but it doesn't make any sense for the builders' or assassins' replacement. I mean...how a bone thin fakir will help in building stuff?
Luiz Sarchis historically, fakirs were viewed as mystics who could pray on your behalf to bring you good fortune (for a fee), so it makes perfect sense that they can help you with any endeavor in the game :)
+rahdo
This is how we used to play it. Fakirs help you spiritually, with moral etc. i can understand why some people dont like the idea of slavery in the game. i had not heard the stallion idea before but i do think it would have been better, even as someone that didnt really have the same issues with the slave theme.
Totally agree with Richard on the slaves, imagine replacing the camels in Jaipur with slaves, bah.
Sadly most people seem to think slavery is a thing from the past, thanks Jay Champagne for clearing that up.
Wouldn't stallions also be slaves then? For the people that don't like the term "slaves" just call them "workers"?
Honestly, I totally disagree about the 2 player game comments he makes. I love the game at two players and one of the more interesting things about it is the turn order bid as it is. It creates interesting tension and it is usually pretty easy to prevent an opponent from going twice in a row unless they are willing to invest heavily. Usually, I would say the reward does not justify the price, and if you play it right, even when they get their two turns in a row, you might be able to give yourself the same advantage immediately afterwards. Nutshell, it is not as over-powered as he makes it out to be.
Pity about that 2 player issue, the game otherwise seems very interesting.
I think on the slavery issue it is a very touch thing for Americans but not so much elsewhere in the world (it feels a bit more ancient history rather than 150 years ago). I find it interesting that slavery is so abhorred but violence is almost worshipped in pop culture. Assassinating people is no better than enslaving them. Anyway great run through as always.
Ancient history? 150 years ago? You do realize there are people being taken as slaves right now, right? You do realize that it's especially prevalent in the geographical region that serves as a setting for this game?
Jay Champagne of course but what I mean is it feels far removed from most people who will be buying board games. It is a hobby almost exclusively for privileged westerners after all.
To those complaining about Rahdo's concerns: It doesn't make much sense to talk about "historical accuracy" regarding the Arabian Nights environment. That book as we know it now is a mish-mash of folktales cobbled together by British hobbyists in the 19th century. There is almost no connection between those stories and any specific people's history.
I totally agree with you. I couldn't even watch the extended gameplay! I felt the same way about that game that companies are "dividing" Africa. In that one, I didn't even finish the runthrough.
I respect your strong distaste of slavery. I totally agree with you ***** Definitely won't want to introduce the concept of slavery and human sacrifice to kids in a board game.
Hi Rhado thanks for your reviews, very helpful, also thanks for Jen's Top ten, I like her's more than your top's ten, sorry.
I have a request can you make a review on Archipelago?. Cheers from Switzerland!
well, what have we here?? Archipelago Gameplay Runthrough :)
***** LOL, thanks a lot!! you are awesome!
I think the points you raise about slavery are good. It is too easy to rationalize the inclusion of themes like that.
However, I definitely disconnect when you say assassins are acceptable. I am a pacifist and find murder and glorification of war to be similarly uncomfortable themes personally.
Not really bothered by the slavery cards yes they could have been something else but it does sadly fit thematically for the period of Arabian Nights, sadly as a 2 player game i agree with your assessment off the list it goes.
It also fits for the time period of today. Why do people constantly talk like slavery is a thing of the past? This game is set in the Middle East, and there are large groups of people in the Middle East (as well as Africans embracing certain aspects of Middle Eastern religion) who are taking slaves left and right even as we speak.
Jay Champagne Lets not forget the Genies - those are thematically correct too right?
Jay Champagne
Yup, pretty much "slaves" built Dubai. While not technically being bought/sold they are treated like slaves in the worst way.
+rahdo It's not just you, I agree with you completely.
Bravo, Richard, you absolutely nailed the slavery issue. In the first few minutes of the run-through I was ready to run out and buy this game. I could see it being a real gateway hit, with the joyous and colourful art and theme enticing new gamers to try something a little more complex than the traditional gateway games. I could even see my Dad sitting down and playing this. But then you showed one of the slavery cards and I thought to myself, if you'll pardon the language, what the fuck? Who thought that was a good idea for a game like this? And as quickly as it appeared, it was off my to buy list.
Slavery is certainly not something that should be ignored but at the same time it is not something that should be casually thrown in. Freedom and Endeavour handle it with maturity and intelligence while Five Tribes clearly does not. The whole historical angle doesn't really hold up in a game with bloody genies in it and neither does the "but it's in the book" argument because I don't see the game including all the other forms of unpleasantness from the stories (e.g. rape).
***** Square root of complexity? MATH!
Alright, let's add a game mechanism so that newly-freed slaves become citizens and create an economic engine which becomes bigger the more newly-freed citizens you have. And we will need to tinker with the numbers so that this is a major component as big as other major components, without overwhelming the game.
And I'm serious! To me, the rules of the designer are merely the starting point. I'm willing to call it the classic version. I'm willing to play four, five, six times with the 'actual' rules, but then I have no problem changing it to what I think is a better game. For example, if there's only two major engines to winning the game, and the other stuff is minor sidelines, well, let's upgrade one of these minor sidelines, makes for a much more interesting game. Here we're doing it for another reason. But all the same, adding an additional major engine makes for a much more interesting game.
I think slaves are in enough games now to where they've become more or less accepted figures. Whether that rubs people the wrong way or not, it's a fact. I would say that anyone who is bothered by controversial topics should just avoid these games. But I mean...if you're going to be bummed about a game that deals with slavery, go play Tales of the Arabian Nights instead, and let that disguised slave cripple you and steal all your money :P
In all seriousness, Richard, I'm really looking forward to this game, though your report on the 2p situation does worry me some. I'm not a fan of there only being blue and pink to play as either (I like being green, my wife yellow). I've got it on pre-order though, so fingers crossed for it being a hit for me.
While to agree with you 100% that the presence of slaves without much context seems jarringly out of place in this game, I think that saying that you sacrifice/kill them is maybe somewhat misleading; at least I didn't see any reference to such activity in the rules. You discard them to get Djinn cards, yes, but the act of discarding could mean lots of things. I'd choose to believe that you're setting them free and they reward you by returning with a powerful genie.
The Cardboard Dungeon could be. seems unlikely, considering that djinns are actually evil demons who don't want to serve you, but must. considering the white meeples are actually "priests" (from the designer diary), when you use them, they're likely doing some sort of ritual to capture the djinns. if you only have one priest and a slave though, I don't know that the slave would be able to perform the same ritual as a 2nd priest, so it seems most logical that the slave is sacrificed to suppliment the ritual.but you're right, the rules don't specify any of this (which is a shame) so players are free to make up their own thematic justification, which is totally cool. i'm merely suggesting what strikes me as the mostly likely interpretation :)
*****
And you would probably be correct that the hooded, white priest is sacrificing the dark skinned slave. I probably just made you shudder just now, didn't I? ;-)
So glad you brought up the use of slaves in the game. Totally keeps me from buying. Why put players in the position of being slave owners? This is not a game that deals with slavery, it uses it as dressing, which just feels wrong.
well rahdo in spartacus you buy a slave then you can throw him/her in a arena where he gets decapitated while people bet on him to be decapitated and earn money.its a game.
you don't have to tell me, i'm a HUGE fan of the show! what I don't know about the game is how it handles slavery in terms of tone, relative to the rest of the game. if it does it right, then sure, include slavery. if it's done in a tone deaf manner (like 5 tribes) then don't include it. i already mentioned this in the video, btw, that slavery in a game is laudable, when done correctly (see Endeavor and Freedom). I suspect that in Spartacus it's done well also, but I've never played it(nor will I ever, because it's a 3p minimum, high conflict game), so I can't confirm...
i agree. for my taste that sacrificing to the evil jinies is way off.freedom is academy games they know how to put themes right.is this supposed to be a family game?
as for slavery in spartacus.well you dont want really slaughter slaves in spartacus becouse they generate money.gladiator takes money and slave makes money for ludus.but when a opponent plays a intrigue card and hurts your only one gladiator the host of the games can anounce you to enter the arena and then you have to throw a slave in.but you can equip him with a lot of gear. we had games where a highgeared slaved won againts starting gladiator.then are basic slaves and slaves with special skills. so in spartacus slaves have their own place.but as a lanista you can do what you like with them(sell,kill,trade).like in the series.
Rahdo, I think you are right about the use of slavery in the game. I can easily forgive the Columbine mistake because I could have made it in reverse for an Italian tragedy I don't know about. The slavery thing in the game is different. They could have easily renamed it something else in the same quantities and uses but not brought up issues. You wouldn't have something referencing the Holocaust in a game unless it was done in the manner that Freedom: The Underground Railroad was handled. It just seems an unnecessary element in the game. I know that historically it existed but lets not make it a "fun" part of a game.
Re: slaves - you mention all the fun, happy stuff, but then neglect to mention that you also sacrifice elders, and use assassins....
Ok, you mentioned assassins at the end....
Neil Blaiberg yup, and as it turns out, the elders are actually 'priests' (according to designer diary) using their holy powers to bind the genies to you. but still, the slaves are being sacrificed, I reckon. bad end for them. still think it would be better if it was just a bag of magic gems, which could be used to enhance the holy rituals...
How do you feel about games like Spartacus?
Neil Blaiberg dunno... never paid attention to it as it's 3p. but you can see my vids for freedom: underground railroad & endeavor though...
Freedom is a little different as the whole topic is about saving slaves.
My point on Spartacus is that it's another game where you auction for slaves and make them fight in the arena - just wondered if you have the same objection
Thanks for the review, I rarely play 2 player so its not a concern for me, but I agree with your opinion. Really obvious from watching a play-through that 2 player fundamentally alters the game experience in a negative way.
I am really concerned about the AP problem in this game, so thanks for pointing that out, I'll probably leave this one on the shelf because of it.
I have heard many reviewers agree that the game is visually well presented. But no matter how many times I look at a review, the game still looks like a complete mess to me. The meeples clutter up the board so badly that you cannot even see the artwork for most of the game. The board actually looks like a pizza or something to me, There are mush more attractive games in my opinion.
Your comments on the slavery thing were a little strange, you probably chose the wrong way to express your view. It is inconsistent to suggest that sacrificing slaves to daemons is offensive, but your cool with sacrificing old people or horses. I think you actually miss read the theme of the game, its a pretty dark game, slavery, human sacrifice, assassination ect. It just has colorful pieces, its not a light theme at all.
If you did not enjoy the themes of slavery or sacrifice in the game then absolutely mention it because I am sure there will be others that will feel the same. But suggesting that including these themes is a fundamental error is a little heavy handed.
I really enjoy the game myself.
Bags of gold and rubies are actually included in the game as rare resources. So no, that wouldn't have worked. But sure, stallions would work. But to be honest, I don't care. And one important aspect, slavery and trafficking is still happening. It's not just part of history.
I also play mostly only two player in games and so also this. I don't have the problem at all with going twice in a row. If both can do it I don't see the problem.
It makes me sad, that everytime slavery is mentioned or showed in a movie,videogame or even boardgame, an American has to make a rant about how bad and insesitive it is. I get that, you feel bad about it and its "nice to be nice" and to condemn it again and again but it is overreacting. It is just a game, a slave is just a thematic choice, nothing else. It could be something else, I agree on that. Like you said, could be stallions, but I know many people who would consider it as bad as slavery in this game, that you slay defensless animals to reach your goal. Don't get me wrong, I love your videos and I always watch them before I buy any game, and they are all AMAZING, but this time, I do not understand this fuss about one card.
You are not wrong for not understanding "the fuss" about the one card. Some things affect people differently and that's ok. It's really not fair to say its "overreacting" though, because it's all subjective to what the person is feeling. To some people (like me) it's a huge deal and some people (like you) it doesn't bother and you can look past it and that's totally fine, there is really no right or wrong here.
American? I thought he was Maltese. . . .
As much as I agree with you, it's subjective and we're all entitled to our opinion.. the slave thing doesn't bother me one bit..but I can understand how some other people would be.
Michael Smyjewski there's literally no reason why it should be a "huge deal" to you. If it was you'd never wear nikes.
Michael Smyjewski he still likes it
Rahdo, I can tell how defeated you are. And your opinion matters. Do we have to see run throughs and do heavy research before we buy ANY game nowadays, even from established designers like Donald X and Bruno Cathala (and "family" publishers like Days of Wonder)? Sadly, it seems so. And as a parent (and human being), this presents a quandary for me, as discussed below. The rant is justified as to the "slaves" issue (though, as you admit, you seemed unfazed by the "assassins"). I decided against Greed based on thematic considerations, thanks to your run-through.
So here's my problem -- I've got this one on pre-order, and purchased with kids in mind (mainly because of the Mancala mechanic which should be a hit, and the insane GenCon buzz). However, I do see some potential solutions: (1) sleeving the cards and substituting another image for the "slave" cards -- though it defeats the idea of an eloquent ready-to-play game), or (2) just removing those cards altogether (which may drastically affect the set-collection mechanics, but I'd be willing to try it). I really have to question the judgment of Days of Wonder here as well as Bruno Cathala (who has his own reputation to uphold). BUT HERE'S THE BEST SOLUTION: DoW's new owner Asmodee prints an alternate card set, rigth away, and posts a revised rule-set -- it would be a great way to address the issue and generate some good will -- they plan to get more into the U.S. market, so here is their opportunity. If this game turns out to be a hit, they can easily fix this with the next printing.
As to the turn-order issue -- that's another, lesser problem, but I'll bet that a solution could be crafted with a "dummy" bidder for turn order as is used in Homesteaders, or some means of blind-bidding for turn order (as with Scoville). Lots of games have 2-player variants that make the game better. Let's get our heads together and come up with one.
agree with you on the slave cards. making it horses or cattle or even just jewels to sacrifice and invest for better results.
also for all the people who say its just a game... i am going out on a limb here and assume those were all white people. who well in the past werent negatively affected by slavery.
maybe when ever you play you could say you buy them to free them. like they become part of your tribes but are free and they have knowledge of the djinns and are able to summon them and then go their way.
i do like that, a lot, great idea! :)
*****
See...you just need to stop dwelling on it so much and give it a positive spin in your head. :) Try to remember this next time it comes up because I really think it will...for something else. :)
John-Paul Laflamme doesn't change the fact neither Jen nor I like the inclusion of slavery in the game. that's a great way for others to deal with it if they like, but i'm still getting rid of the game because of the slave cards (and also the tusks, which jen hates almost as much as the slave cards)
Playing war games... which is generally based on - let's name it - killing... is o.k.? But integrating a historical fact or facet like slavery is not? Slavery is in every way a dark chapter, sthg to be aware of, sthg not to be diminished in its historical context. I agree it could have been exchanged for sthg else, but IMHO this is even a good thing as it reminds us of sthg as a very true and dark part of humanity's history.
And as a sidenote, awareness on this subject is not even as sensible as it should be... Not that much has changed since then, we are just - nowadays - taking care of food and shelter on our own, believing into the illusion of freedom, while trying to close the numberless financial holes of national and privat debt... Sorry for being taken away... making you think...
I fail to see how having players pretend to be slaveholders, buying and using (discarding) slaves at their leisure in any way teaches a lesson about "a very true and dark part of humanity's history." That would be like saying having a card that allows you to beat your wife provides some great social lesson about domestic violence. Sorry, it doesn't hold water. If you want a lesson about the brutality of slavery, play Freedom: The Underground Railroad.
Who wants to understand the entire book also needs to read the dark pages.
Will a can of spraypaint take care of the "forced to play pink" problem? lol
***** if we were going to keep the game, jen would have used some purple nail polish on those pieces, yes
***** How much of a premium do you pay to get board games in Malta?
well, all boardgames costs signficantly more in the EU than they do in the US, usually 10-20% more to begin with no matter where you buy them. and then they have to be shipped to Malta, and no one in Europe does "free shipping with orders over $100" as are so common in the states...
Btw, most of the people on this earth are happy together while thousands of animals get killed for tasty meals. That's a real cruelty, the game shows only a bad past. Think of it.
I agree with your thoughts on the slavery cards in this game. You're not over-reacting and it was a poor choice by the producers/designers of the game. I'll pass on it, there's lots of great games out there to choose from.
So, he has a problem sacrificing slaves but it's ok to sacrifice your elders? Plus as far as i can tell, the theme of the game is not reuniting the tribes, but gathering polical support to take the throne. Where is that fluffy and friendly?
if there was gratuitous imager of said sacrifice, i would have taken issue with that as well. and sorry, but you literally spend the entire game unifying scattered tribes. every single turn that is the primary action you do.
rahdo So the problem is not slavery itself but the imagery used. That I can understand. The imagery is disturbing to me too. I just think we have to be really carefull to avoid moral relativism. Apart from that great review.
yup, in the video i talked about other games i've played that feature slavery where their inclusion was tonally appropriate and fit with the overall vibe of the game. see my runthrough of endeavor, a game that casts you in the role of a slave owning nation, and how much i respected it for it's mature and thoughtful approach to the subject.
for my tastes, the style of graphic presentation chosen did not fit here, in this bright, colorful, gateway/family game, any more than it would have in, say, Disney's Aladdin.
I think the game has a very mature theme, with political machinations, assassinations and the like but I'm satisfied in agreeing to disagree. Keep up the good work on your channel. Love your playthroughs!
So Richard, if you want, I can do you the favor of take the game, cause I don't have a problem with the slavery part of it. :) specially when there is also the option to assassinate ppl, like you said.
There were so many bad things in history, we can't erase them, we should learn from them to prevent from happening again. In fact, we can see, today, in the XXI century, worst things than the slavery that we knew from before.
Lets agree to disagree and if you need my address to send to game, just let me know or ask Paulo hehehe.
I think the game is great, I agree with the 2 players part although you can set a house rule and say you can bid consecutively, or something like that,
I hope I can get it in europe soon.
Keep up with the good job Richard.
DnaNaz actaully, i offered paulo first dibs on the game, but he wasn't interested. its for sale in an auction on boardgamegeek now... still available for a cheap price at the moment! :)
***** Yeah I figured you'd do that, but I thought he would actually keep it to play with the group here hehe. Anyway, if you don't mind, please let me know where i can find that auction. Thanks :)
DnaNaz here ya go: www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/178171/rahdo-runs-through-his-4th-auction-essen-pickup-av :)
***** Thanks :)
It's one thing when the "murder" is retrieving cute, red wooden meeples from the board and when the slave is right there in front of you, in chains, looking miserable. It was extremely poor taste on their part and they just had to reprint it with fakirs. What were they thinking?
This game needs some sort of Dummy player for 2 player.
14:40
indeed
Totally agree about the slavery thing. My God, that was so tacky, especially the way the slaves look on the cards. (Using fakirs instead was a smart move.) Don't agree about two player. I actually prefer 2 player BY FAR.
I noticed on boardgamegeek there was a lot of opinions, between 2p, 3p, and 4p people were really split on their preferences. It seems like 3p may be the most recommended, but 2p and 4p also have enthusiastic support