Could armor get scalding HOT in the Sun? REPLY to scholagladiatoria
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2023
- This as a reply to @scholagladiatoria and Matt Easton if armor could get soo hot that surcoats were worn to protect it from the sun? : • Did CRUSADERS wear SUR...
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While the comments are fighting over "It's for looks" and "it's for function",
I'm sitting here, thinking, it can be both. It serves a functional purpose and then we decorate it. Form and function are not mutually exclusive.
Modern world seems to have made that separation, you get it for form, or you get it for function, but rarely both. Why waste materials and time to decorate a functional item? It is the result of maximization and optimization of manufacture, but that does cause modern people to think less of how to make something functional also decorative at the same time.
Pre-electronic IFF.
@@littlekong7685 Not to mention highly decorated dagger and sword hilts in history worn by those who could afford it. And that idea survives now in video games like Call of Duty, where you can put skins on your weapons.
same way modern think that politics and Military is seperate ,rome is a prime example how much bs the whole Military and Warrior are jist loyal dudes who dont care about politics. its very annoying in films like Gladiator where maximus is only that weird ass loyal modern Soldier type that is a freaking unicorn in roman times especially in the ranks of Military commanders
It's like gaming pcs!
Because the normal Coats hadn't been knighted yet!
Ha!
Sir Coats are the only coat worthy of the title Sir, and therefore only coat worthy of a knight.
Loved this comment!
TOTES ‼️🎉 GREAT 👑🇨🇰 #COMMONWEALTH HUMOR ‼️😁🍵🤩
But everyone could have mail tho right?
As someone who wears plate armor in the deserts of the western united states, the armor will absolutely get blisteringly hot to the point that one day I poured water over my helmet and it hissed and steamed. However, I wear a cloth gambeson underneath with acted as an insulator from the outside, but allows my sweat to wick heat away. So as long as I stay hydrated I'll feel perpetually icky from constantly sweating but my internal temperature can be maintained.
By logic shiny armor is best at reflecting radiation. Painted metal would probably get even more hot in the sun. There is a reason sunscreens for cars are usually made of reflective shiny foil. So i bet the best result is shiny armor outside to reflect more radiation combined with insulating padding underneath to counter high thermal conductivity of metal. And also allow some ventilation and evaporation. Important notice here: shiny metal also reflects radiation emitted by a body back inside, but it's kinda low compared to the sun radiation. Still important to remember that reflection, emission, and insulation always works both ways.
I know it's not historically accurate, but you might try wearing a polyester baselayer to wick away moisture and allow air flow to dry quicker.
@@fireline4765 But you don't want to be dry, when its really hot. In my experience soaking your gambeson with water helps a lot to not get a heat stroke.
“Perpetual icky” is my summertime existence.
You work at the Renaissance festival in AZ 😂
Heraldry was developed to determine who was your ally or enemy. The surcoat often had matching colors.
Visual IFF!
@MonkeyJedi99 Unfortunately for them, that won't stop friendly fire from beyond visual range. So I still have an excuse when I hit them with my trebuchet's 90kg projectile from over 300 meters.
@@lonelystrategos ayyy nice, a catapult joke
@@lonelystrategos An unfortunate accident that no one could have predicted, just like the last 23 times it happened
One thing Shad points out about how the surcoat is an extra layer of insulation which would make you _even hotter..._
We do see frequently that large voluminous garments are used when traversing the open desert because they're insulating... which makes them retain their temperature longer, even if that temperature is 'cool.'
While I doubt this is why they wore surcoats, insulating clothing is typically worn on longer treks through the heat once it gets to a certain temperature and body cooling by ventilation becomes effectively impossible. At that ambient temperature, trying to maintain internal temperature becomes more viable than trying to stay cool.
Obviously though the best thing would be to wear a mylar robe with a condenser-evaporator built in.
And they prefer dark colours as well, light colours tend to reflect light in all directions, and the wearer is in one of those directions. So the cloth is cooler, but the wearer is much warmer as a result. Dark on the other hand absorbs more, so the cloth gets warm but the user stays cooler. And once out of the heat the dark clothes can be set aside and the heat is effectively shed instantly. White clothes once removed, they have already passed a good amount of heat to the user already, so not much is gained (or heat lost a sit were).
_"One thing Shad points out about how the surcoat is an extra layer of insulation which would make you even hotter..."_
IF the surcoat was thick and worn tightly then it would indeed insulate you, but if it was thin and worn loosely, then not so much.
_"We do see frequently that large voluminous garments are used when traversing the open desert because they're insulating... which makes them retain their temperature longer, even if that temperature is 'cool.'"_
I don't think this is why they are worn. Loose garments are worn because they enable air to keep circulating, which is what keeps you cool. Full length garments are worn to protect the skin from sunlight.
exacly, termal isolation works both ways
@@GonzoTehGreat " Loose garments are worn because they enable air to keep circulating, which is what keeps you cool."
Also couldn't loose dark garments end up providing more circulation than loose light garments? The heat stays at the surface of the garments, and the heated up air rises; pulling in more air.
Loose dark garments can allow for air convection - essentially air flow through the clothes which can have a cooling benefit.
Shad you should visit Britain one day! It'd be awesome to see you spar with the English sword-tubers and geek out over real life castles and the royal armouries
If I'm not mistaken, he will be in September.
@@WhatsaMoniker Shad said he was going to France and England in August/ September. He said he may do a meet up also.👍
doubt he can do long term combat with his... well, condition
@@philipbaudains9154I hope he meets up with the Knight Of Beige when he's there
Where does he live?
As a person living in Israel and having served in the army in all types of weather, I can tell you that, yes, metal gets super hot in the sun (try putting your hand on a tank that's been out in the sun all day in summer in the south of Israel...) but even a thin glove makes a huge difference. We simply wore gloves and it wasn't a problem. Obviously, as stated in some comments, people would avoid actions in the middle of the day, in hot weather, and I assume it was the same in the past. Further more, covering your body from the sun is important, and layers can and were used to maintain the body in the varying temperatures of the desert, but overheating is more a matter of wearing too much, and not a question of material. Probably the hardest thing for us was training in HASMAT kit, gas mask and all - covering the head and face made a huge difference and guys would actually faint often. Lastly, it is important to remember that a lot of the holy land is NOT desert. Temperatures in Galilee and the north of Israel, including Lebanon and Siryah (which were a part of crusader territories) can get quite low and you even get snow at winter time; costal areas are more temperate and humidity is more of a problem. Weather is very varied in this region.
As someone that was in the US Army from 2005 to 2009, I to had to deal with high heat in areas I was stationed at. A due to the negligence of my CO when I was stationed in South Korea, I suffered a heat stroke. And yeah, tanker friends of mine told me they had to wear gloves for their tanks due to how hot they got in Iraq. So, yeah, what you said is correct.
you're dealing with maybe first degree burns if you leave the skin against it
@@forgerofsouls9126 hope you recovered from the heat stroke. Just curious how would soldiers handle the heat when their CO isn't being as you say "negligent"?
@@shadowwolf2608 Typically when outside in a training environment they don't wear their full battle outfit, patrols are not lengthy (typically between 15 minutes to 30 minutes long instead of the usual 1 hour length), and the soldiers mostly stay in the shade.
When on post and not in a battlezone, we normally wear only the baret (or softcaps, depending on the situation) and typically work indoors when it is hot outside, and when working outdoors, you are supposed to get breaks often while working in the shade as often as possible.
My CO did not do any of that while we were out in a field exercise despite being over 100F (over 37.7C) AND despite the fact that the post command gave the orders to adhere to the above. My CO did not, she had us in the sun, wearing the full battle rattle, and full 1 to 2 hour long patrols. I was not the only victim of the heat that day, to top it off, even our First Sergent passed out due to the heat right in front of out Battalion CO when he arrived to inspect the camp.
Needless to say, our CO was relieved of duty and after a month long investigation, a permanent removal from command. Which is basically a career killer from officers.
So, yeah, willful negligence on the CO's part due to ignoring guidelines passed down from superior officers. So, no need for the quotations there.
@@forgerofsouls9126 I haven't served myself, but I can understand how bad that heat was. I worked outside for six years doing physical labor (loading merchandise into customer vehicles).
Once it was so bad a co-worker broke the sop of never having one guy in our outdoor area to send me inside due to six hours of summer heat exposure and how long it had been since I had any water.
To any manager reading this, ensure that you have sops that account for the heat and cold.
Speaking for myself, the surcoat has always been one of my favorite pieces of armor from medieval history. So glad to see this!
As an addition to the point of "telling friend from foe", back in the day, when the people directing battles could only really do it via visual means, being able to tell where each unit was, how it was functioning, and whether it needed support etc. at a glance, would have been immensely valuable. Particularly as the battles got larger. It was probably less about individual soldiers, and more about how the army functioned as a whole.
that is why we had battle standards. unit flags to show where the unit is and what it was doing. you would have a specific number of those per specific number of solders in unit so you could tell with a glance exactly how many of them are still in the fight and where from a hill safely away from combat.
surcoat gets muddy and bloddy and torn and is far harder to see in melee then a flag held by one dude on a pole above the fighting. if that flag fell you knew there were no functional unit there.
On first thought. It makes sense. As radiant heating from the sun would make the mail hotter to the touch, than mail that is kept in the shadow of a thin (light color especially) cloth covering over the mail. Be an interesting test for you to put a section of mail into the sun and a section of mail under a light colored cloth and test the temperature. May be even better to put a pork roast under each of them and use meat thermometers to see if one roast (mailed body) gets substantially hotter than the other.
I’m just starting the video, so you may answer this soon.
The thing with cloth is you actually want dark cloth. Better the cloth absorbs the heat than it reflects it back onto the wearer. This is why so many desert dwellers prefer dark clothing. It is certainly possible to get a tan from reflected white cloth with enough time and exposure.
@@littlekong7685 _"The thing with cloth is you actually want dark cloth."_
Not true at all. White reflects both sunlight and heat better than black, which is usually the worst color to wear if you're trying to keep cool.
_"This is why so many desert dwellers prefer dark clothing."_
They don't. It's not always possible to wear white, but this is partly why light colors are the most popular when outdoors in hot countries. People wore darker colors for many reasons, but it wasn't to keep cooler.
_"It is certainly possible to get a tan from reflected white cloth with enough time and exposure."_
You tan from direct or indirect sunlight, not heat. The tan is your skin producing melanin to counter the damage caused by UV. Worn clothes can transfer to you some of the heat they absorb, but any light is reflected away, so it doesn't reach your skin, which is why they offer protection from the sun.
@@NemFX _"You want white to deflect radiation, you want black to absorb a certain level of heat."_
This does make sense, but then I'd expect them to wear white over black, not black over white. The outer white layer reflects sunlight, preventing the inner black layer from getting hot, which could then absorb body heat.
_"The Bedouins for example, wore black over white."_
The outer black would get hot in the sun but the inner white would prevent some of this heat from reaching the skin, so it might work, but it still seems inferior to the reverse.
@@NemFX After a quick Google search, I found a Nature article which tested this and there wasn't an appreciable difference between White and Black, in terms of the amount of heat absorbed over 30 minutes. This was because while the Black robe absorbed more heat, it also radiated it away more quickly.
_The results were clear. As the report put it: "The amount of heat gained by a Bedouin exposed to the hot desert is the same whether he wears a black or a white robe. The additional heat absorbed by the black robe was lost before it reached the skin."_
So, it would seem that wearing loose, full covering robes is more important to keep cool than what color they are, at least for short periods in the sun. I'm not sure what this tells us about wearing surcoats...
@@NemFX Yes, there could indeed be other reasons, if the color doesn't make much difference after all. (See my other reply)
For those of us who measure in bald eagles per freedom 52 is about 126 so
Yet another reason to never set foot in australia
@@Omnicortisol what you talking about that's fishing weather
I doubt that my armor would actually verbally abuse me but it might get SCALDING hot if left in the sun. A classic eggcorn moment from Shad 😁.
Form hoo?
I sure hate it when my armor scolds me.
A other reason they might’ve worn multiple layers might be to keep them selfs cooler because if you layer your clothes right you can isolate the inside of your clothes from the outside heat so even though it would seem counterproductive at first it might keep you cooler in the long run. LOVE your video’s shad! Keep up the good work!!!
This is exactly what deep desert dwellers do. Dress in many heavy dark layers in the cool, then rely on that insulation and lack of extra reflected light from light cloth to carry you through the day. Once you get somewhere cool, the dark clothes come off along with all of their stored heat making you instantly cooler. Light clothes would be cooler, but that means more energy being reflected onto the wearer, dark clothes absorb and hold the heat to themselves.
Selves*
I don't think absolutely everything done was for a functional purpose- it may have literally just been to more easily distinguish friend from foe or to simply be a sort of uniform.
Imagine your vision is reduced to about half an inch and everyone in the multiple thousand man melee is wearing indistinguishable silvery plate.
Seems like a great way to rack up your friendly fire score.
@@ArrakisHeir88 most combat was morale based. i would suspect the reluctance to fight at all would be more pervasive and, thus, friendly fire would be lower still.
but that would be hardly heroic.
@@ArrakisHeir88visors didn't obstruct vision as much as you think they would, though you're right about how it might be hard to see who's who
Ancient armors also dealt with heat in such ways. Bronze soaks up the sun's heat too, but painting over it with tars and pigments helped reduce that buildup of temperature. Such a neat idea that these peoples had to deal with the environment in creative ways.
Todd's Workshop made a video that consisted in shooting a chest plate with arrows.
The bare plate would deflect the arrow, when Todd put some kind of cloth coat on the plate the arrow stopped, it didn't fly off in a random direction.
wasn't a problem with mail though, arrows would stick in mail even if they didn't penetrate gambeson underneath. Actual accounts of battles during crusades mention knights fighting with multiple arrows sticking out of them.
It's not just the poor ventilation of the helmet but the fact that your head is basically the great heat chimney of the body.
This is why putting on a beanie or a hat during a very cold day quite helps in making you feel warmer even if your arms and legs are more exposed.
We radiate tons of heat through our heads, so as soon as you insulate the head in some manner, the effect is very noticeable.
Likewise on a hot day, if you dip your head in a barrel of cold water it'll instantly help you to cool down compared to just sticking a hand or foot in cold water.
That's only true when you swim in really cold water with your head out of the water. This is how this fallacy started.
It's 1000W/m2 and high thermal density vs wind pressure, probably with a low deltaT.
Covering up the armor or painting bright colors definitely makes sense. Wasn't the purpose of the outfit though.
I saw a video a long time ago that demonstrated a feature of the surcoat. They were made of heavy felt and felt was quite good at stopping arrows. The video showed how the felt was made and how the fabric was compressed when it was made. I future test video in the offing??
I would also want to point out that if it is so hot that the condition of all that metal is so debilitating that you cannot stay in it and not faint/die to overheat.... well you just do not fight. There is no reason to go into a battle in those conditions (which affect both sides). It is like trying to stage a battle during a blizzard. One just does not do it instead of trying to come up with dubious tricks to slightly lower the temp of your armour.
Military operations don't stop for weather. If you can find a way to fight in 5 degree hotter Temps than your enemy, you go out. If his only choice is to just tank the heat and try to fight you, that's what he has to do.
the problem with that is acclimation and evolution. people that live in the Horn of Africa are skinny even when they move away to someplace else, as that means more surface area to radiate heat. this means that people local to an area can handle the weather better than foreigners, and this holds true for any extremes of climate. the only real caveat is locals that took the area and thus did not live there for hundreds of generations. so when you first get an area with harsh climate you need to acclimate in order to fight to full effectiveness, and even then you will not be able to handle quite the same level of extremes as long standing locals.
@@sheldoniusRex I just remembered a situation where one army refused to go to battle in the heat, while the other stood there the whole day in the scorching sun.
I don't remember the exact details, but it was a battle between a Turkish army and a Hungarian army. While the hungarians got ready for battle from the morning, the turkish army just sat at their camps chilling the whole day. When the weather became more bareable the turkish army finaly decided to attack the hungarian army and easily defeated them, due to the hungarians standing in the sun for the whole day, expecting an attack any moment.
jeebus on a pogo stick, you know nothing of warfare. you do not pick favourable weather unless that gives you opening. if you can use any advantage, you better do because it can save your life. if i can up my endurance and alacrity while leaving the enemy to suffer, i would. in melee, that split second stiffness from cold or hesitation from fatigue can make all the difference.
besides, most melee combat had low casualty rate as moral was the ultimate decider of victory in vast majority of conflicts.
A lot of customs traditional to hot climates we see as "lazy", like the Spanish Siesta, the Islamic custom of structuring most prayers throughout midday (prohibiting most hard labor and keeping people indoors) etc, the American South and having several afternoon meals and drinks, all come from surviving the heat and staying away from the hottest part of the day.
I would like to note, whule white may reflect more light, black is more efficient at thermal cooling, ie wind blowing across you. So if its windy, you might stay cooler with loose fitting black, while white would benefit in less windy environments.
Black helps with radiating heat away. That's not the same as wind aka convective heat distribution as it's called. So black would help at night or anytime there's no direct sun to help radiate heat. White helps reflect heat under direct sunlight, and surface area is generally what helps with convective heat dissipation, like wind.
The reason for wearing darker fabric might be because that while it does just absorb heat faster than lighter fabric, it releases it faster as well. You'd see this sort of thing on some types of supersonic aircraft like the SR-71 Blackbird which could move up to Mach 3.5. It's painted black to help get rid of the massive amounts of heat generated from the friction at such high speeds.
"Holy Lands are hot." And apparently generic quest destinations by that tone, lol.
Right round the other side of the world, the coldest I've been out in is minus 57 degrees Celsius. Creates whole new problems with armor I'd imagine, haha. No joke, when my dad was a kid in his small town, and they had get the fire wood, they would sit on their axe heads as they rode out to keep the metal just a weeeeeee bit warmer, since they would sometimes break otherwise if used to strike in extreme cold. Or, thats at least how the stories were told to me ;)
It's important to state that it gets fairly cold at night in the desert, so black and layered clothes aren't that stupid at all
It can get well below freezing point in the desert at night. That's more than 'fairly cold'. Though yes, it depends on season and exact location.
@@kikixchannel of course, I think I made my point clear, but thanks anyway
Not even the desert. A simple trip to the beach and the temperature drops rapidly after sunset. The looks of people when I bring a simple hoodie to the beach for an afternoon swim.
@@anthonyoer4778 yeah, but that's because of the sea, not necessarily the desert. The hoodie is still important, though
I was under the impression that mail was the best type of armor for hot environments
I've experienced that kind of temp back in the day. Corpus Christi Texas got to 109 F (42.7778 C) officially, but the humidity made it feel hotter. So I sympathize .
Not watch the full video, but i will drop my theory in advance
2 things
Drip
Confuse the enemy by hiding the weak spot of the armor and the legs movements
I always figured knights wore sour coats to represent the kingdom they come from like how football players have their uniforms made to represent their high school team unless their professionals in which case its their city instead.
Probably also to help with formation and organizing troops. Like those weird Napoleonic hats and color was said to help the general see and know about the troop postion so they can better give order to them.
Yeah, I always figured it was about having a convenient place to put heraldry and other identifying colors and patterns that is cheaper and easier to maintain than having to use painted armor or whatnot. Also, a bit of fashion.
"Kingdom" can be an exaggeration depending on the case. More like to represent the lord they served
@@MW_Asura that too
Not "sour coat".
Surcoat.
I've only just noticed that the blue on Shads kite shield is backwards from his logo and its white instead of black. Only noticed because he mentioned heraldry and it looked weird to me seeing the blue on his gambeson being the other way around from the shield and the black of the gambeson contrasting the white of the shield... Still looks sweet though.
Layering clothes in desert/warm climates is definitely a thing, so I think surcoats could very well have performed a heat management role
Thank you for another great, insightful video! This argument makes some very good sense!
Metal chainmail gets hot when in the sun! but it under a gambeson! under cloth!
is it still hot? I didn't know!
great information Shad!
If you have ever worn a metal necklace in the sauna you know how hot it can get. Therefore I propose you make an experiment in a sauna as a desert simulator!
When I go out with a non-insulated jacket I notice an interesting property of non-form fitting clothes have big openings, that is when wind blows on the opening the air tends to flow downward to escape. So, by wearing an overcoat without sleeves could have that same accidental benefit with the air flow going into the sides of the overcoat and escaping downwards, helping to cool down the rest of the body.
I love your castle background
I still think heat prevention was a secondary benefit, and the sleeveless form actually supports this.
You move your arms around a lot more than your body, so there was more air cooling effect. Also you feel heated mail there a lot less than directly under your head.
So my hypothesis is someone (once they moved down into ever hotter lands, hotter than any land before they had experienced) in mail started wearing cloth above it to prevent it from getting searingly hot, others copied and then people thought "what a great place to put heraldry on!"
Reminds me of Battle Of Grunwald where Teutons were forced to stand for a couple of hours in the summer sun, while Polish and Lithuanian forces were chilling in the forest.
"Thou can standeth under mine umbrella"
~popular bard song of those days about a maiden offering some shade to a knight cooking in his armor
Surcoats had multiple practical functions. After spending years in the Nevada desert, I have learned every little bit of sunshade helps, and long sleeves are for the summer base layer to. White vs black is less important than the layers, wicking and creating that microclimate, just like cold weather. Another is identification. But they probably had embroidered bits that prove morale patches aren't new, and there would have been some bling. The "rule of cool" or "tacticool" has been with us since the beginning of mankind, it's just that cloth rots faster than steel rusts.
Oh for a time machine
Whoa, this video appeared in my recommended! It's been ages since that's happened with a Shadiversity video! Maybe this means the algorithm likes you better now?
Surcoats? Identification.
Great fun this vid!
109F / 44C today in sunny Tucson AZ
Ain't doing any backyard cutting
..😂
I think we're missing another aspect of a surcoat. Shrapnel. Shad pointed out how some coats of padded and they would certainly help with absorbing some of the impact of weapon hits. But on a medieval battlefield you have to imagine there's a lot of arrows flying around. Those arrows are inevitably going to shatter when they hit heavy steel helmets and Shields and later breastplates. Those small wooden pieces would probably end up stuck in people. The circle would prevent you from getting a big old splinter in your chest. I also have to imagine it would help keep you warm. And while that may not seem like a big concern in the summer or in the Middle East.... It would make a difference when it rains. The same way armor heats up and gets hot I would imagine chainmail also gets pretty cold in the rain. Just because the knight travels from Europe to the holy Land doesn't mean he's going to adjust his wardrobe properly. We see in the age of exploration that like sailors who end up in Hawaii don't make smart clothing choices based on their new environment. They wear what they culturally would have worn in Portugal at the same time of the year. Then there is one final weather condition I'd like to bring up. And that's dust. Nobody likes to be covered in dust, nobody probably wants dust all over their chainmail armor cuz it's going to get grimy the next time it gets wet.... I understand surcoats aren't perfect protection from that, I understand it's probably not the biggest concern the world. But it's unpleasant and I'm sure medieval people didn't want to be grimy anymore than you and I want to spend two months grimy. It's unpleasant. A surcoat plus a cloak would be really great for keeping dust off you. One final minor points is it makes a pretty good pocket. Especially if you've got a belt sinched around your waist. Its like a good place to throw a book, some paperwork you might need or you're riding gloves for a few minutes well you stopped to eat or wash your hands or whatever.
Thanks for the response @Shadiversity - and it gives me an idea for a response to the response. Stay tuned!
My pleasure mate and I can't wait to see your vid!
Warmest weather we Have had is +38celsius, coldest -51celsius 😂
I always think its funny when in video game the character walks through Deserts while in Armor.
I think one thing we have to keep in mind is that art doesn’t necessarily reflect how things were regularly done. I can’t speak much about medieval life but I did serve in the US Navy and did several tours in Iraq. We had our dress uniform which we wore for watch and in the presence of the public but we also dress way down when performing everyday activities. The temperatures we used to deal with would be in the 100+ degrees (Fahrenheit). For perspective we use to swab the decks watch the water dry in just a few seconds (you could see the water vapor). I guess my point is that art and public photos tend to reflect an idealized perspective not necessarily how things actually were.
100⁰C+? That's 212⁰F+... I wasn't aware there was anywhere on Earth where the ambient temperature would literally boil water
Except, of course, natural vents, lava tubes, etc
@@treejerk1 i corrected it
It is also important to mention that, in medieval times, there was not really a simple way to prepare for battle in a different climate... unless you actually traveled to a country in a similar latitude (a journey that might take months). So I imagine many young men, anxious to gain "honor" in battle, just went with what they normally used in their countries... and got rid of several layers as they went.
You'd still need extra layers...the desert gets cold at night and very rapidly.
you didn't discard crap like that in medieval times. there was no cheap clothes store in the next pox ridden village over. you had to haggle, be warry of local bandits, bugs and parasites, alergic rashes from unknown foreign plants used in manufacturing process of the fabric... if it can be used, it can be carried. if you can't carry it, it is useless.
You guys are Australian...that is sooooooooo cool. Glad to have people having a passion in history in my home country like me :)
Look out, Shad! A Temple-mental knight!
9:20 There's a small heraldic error in Shad's shield. Tincture shall never touch tincture (read: colours, while yellow and white represent gold and silver). So the blue fields should have a silver line between the field and the red cross (think Union Jack) ... or ... you'd quarter the shield in red and blue and have a white (silver) cross dividing the sections.
I always thought surcoats were like Jerseys, showing the "team" you are "playing" for.
I thought surcoats were the rough equivalent of custom gaming skins.
Totally agree that heraldry had to have been a major reason for surcoats. Though I wonder if, in strong sun, you could get annoying reflections off your armor, or your neighbors'? (though that might be more of an issue from plate than from mail)? A surcoat, in addition to its major purpose of looking distinguished, would also seem to cut way down on any such reflections.
Shad should get those chainmail sleeves tailored to be close fitting. They should never be loose
You don't need padding underneath the mail to stop it from chafing but you absolutely need it to give you protection...
One word: uniform.
Thanks for the video.
When it got hot, both sides stayed in their castles.
I thought the outer garment used to be about keeping clean. So the surcoat was like a cowboy's duster.
Surcoat was a medieval football jersey.
😂 I was the swagga of that day
"scolding hot": (adj.) a step up from "scalding hot" where the heat somehow literally reprimands you
I think touching the hot chainmail is like touching a car window thats been sitting outside a little bit
Hi Shad, the content has been fun lately! I would love to see some content about weapon match-ups in combat. Not so much testing sword "x" vs. sword "y" but more like a sword vs. axe, spear, mace, flail, etc. Looking for evaluation between soldiers with comparable armor and time period. Obviously, not every foot soldier utilized the same weaponry, depending on what they were trained with or country of origin. Mainly, I'm curious if, given the option, a soldier using a certain weapon would say: "You know, maybe I don't fight that guy."
Well, at the very least I'm confident that a guy with just a dagger isn't going to want to fight anyone, and an archer without a side arm definitely won't want to fight anyone with a melee weapon at close range.
Beyond that, swords seem to struggle against polearms (especially one-handed swords) because it's hard to get close enough to deal damage without getting stabbed since polearms have a much longer reach
Surcoats don't have sleeves? That's the OG "Suns out guns out."
Recognition of enemy and teammates
Tod's Workshop just released an affordable Falchion in his Tod Cutler line. A 14th Century Clip Point Falchion, amongst others.
(Gulfwar part 2 Veteran/Reenactor who fights in mail here) It is my understanding that most of the crusaders also had light weight linen or cotton cloaks to protect themselves from the direct sunlight when traveling or standing out in the sun. Also the adoption of desert scarfs to use as hoods when they were sans helmet. The middle eastern sun can heat iron and steel sufficiently that touching it without a glove can give you 1st-2nd degree burns. Going in and out of the shade is enough to protect you from serious overheating (mail cools quickly, but also heats up quickly) so the only real danger would have be the prolonged exposure in open desert. The kind you get on a forced march. There is Absolutely No Reason to suspect that they were too stupid to either doft their mail or cover it to avoid heat stroke. Soldiers of every era are rather interested in not dying, and figuring out ways to survive, usually by adopting elements of local protective dress.
I thought he meant… inside the actual sun. And I was confused as to why that question needed a whole video.
Yep, just as I thought. Surcoats are also used to show allegiance. Also kinda reminds me of Dynasty Warriors, and how Wu, Shu, and Wei were... what's the term I'm looking for... Anyway, Wu is red, Shu is green, and Wei is blue. As long as those main colors were dominant on their attire, they were seen as being a part of that kingdom.
In Britain we dont have sun, we have clouds and rain 😂
I do remember that Shad that you mentioned this myth in your video response to 'Ways in which medieval armor was worse than wearing nothing'
They did it for the drip. Heat is temporary, dying in glorious combat with the latest drip is forever.
A test you can do for black vs. white cloth is to put a thermometer in a box and put the cloth over it. Use two boxes of the same size with the same type of thermometer inside. You want the clothes to be of the same type and thread count, the only difference being one is white and the other black. Place the boxes on a table in the sun. Check after an hour.
You could also test different types of cloth of the same colors.
Love the short
Going to the video now
Dumping water on yourself cools you & the Maille; assuming you have water to spare.
i think they barely wore any armor until they knew for sure they would battle
great video
:) Great Video guys.
Before this video I didn’t know people thought it was for cooling so just figured it was for identification
I wore mail in 90 degree tropical sun, genuinely one of the worst mistakes I’ve made with my arms and armor
"I'm too sexy for my mail." Sir Right Said Fred
Stupendo!
Incredibile anche la regia, il montaggio, ecc!
I remember reading somewhere that byzantine Strategikon advised to use clothing over armour's metal bits to avoid reflecting light thus minimizing that troops could be spotted from afar
I knew the Shad team couldn't wait to use the Crusaider gear.
Heat? It's the itch that I'm more worried about if I wear any steel armour
The knight in the artwork chose to leave out his chain mail shaped grill marks on his arms after the battle
"Great video, Matt!"
In response Matt draws and shoulders his sword ready to strike.
I spilled my water when you mentioned 50c!!!!!!!!!!!! here I am MELTING in 30...
The thought of being in all that gear in the heat makes me feel miserable. I'm so thankful for living in a different time lol
Convection dehydration. Bare skin in the desert is not something you wanna do, especially when it's very, very hot. The wind itself will sap the moisture from your body. Fabric helps stave that off.
Agreed, this is something that I learned years ago in the Marine Corps. Whenever we went on a forced march we'd always do with our sleeves down, even during the Srping and Summer when we would normally wear our cammies with the sleeves rolled up while in garrison. They always explained the logic to the sleeves being down because of the sun and because having the sleeves down would cause you to sweat and thus cool you down.
So, while surcoats might not have been wrong specifically for any potential cooling benefits, that doesn't mean that they didn't have any.
The damn sleeves, good point!
I used to work outside and in the summer only like the last month of summer it has got up to 110, 109 and I live in the Rockies.
But the thing is with think clothes working outside is they protect you from the heat and they protect you from the cold. Sticker clothing holds the moisture against your skin keeping your core temp cooler, and keeps the cold from reaching your skin. Dark colors will make you hotter but they also dissipate heat faster once you do have shade.
Possibly the surcoat served to help reduce the amount of cleaning the armour would require at the end of the day. I spent time in Afghanistan and the dust gets into everything. Add a little bit of water from sweat or spilled drinks (water, wine, etc), and that dust starts to act like a glue, then cement once dried. Just a thought.
Also, that was where I had the hottest day I had every experienced, 54 degrees celsius.
90s metal seatbelts. Happens to everyone.
IIRC one of the earliest examples of wide-spread surcoat use would be the monastic military orders. In those situations, I suspect that in addition to the obvious religious goal of wearing the cross openly, it also served to help the knights and armsmen of those orders to fight together as a unit. They were generally famous for being the most disciplined Latin military formations of the time, and I imagine that surcoats would have played a significant role in that. Even before the establishment of those orders, though, the crusaders literally "took the cross" by having a cross displayed somewhere on their kit, which over time may well have contributed to a more formalized cultural use of heraldry (with surcoats being a convenient mechanism).
cool thing is in modern times we can thread cooling tubes into that chainmail pun intended
When I rode my motorcycle in Las Vegas during the hot summer days, people would ask if I was hot wearing full leathers. I think the leather suit helped insulate my body from the hot sun rays. My body was pretty warm and sweaty but I think it would be worse wearing just a t-shirt.
Remember that in some places in the world it gets over 130° F.
I wore a chainmaille shirt and coif that I made to a Ren Faire in Texas. 100f+ (38c+) and I felt amazing. It may have been the material I was able to use which was galvanized steel electric fence wire, but the outside could cause burns while the inside felt oddly cool.