We need to talk about Fantasy Rogues | FANTASY RE-ARMED - The Rogue
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- čas přidán 23. 05. 2023
- In this episode of Fantasy Re-armed we take an in-depth look at the Rogue to see the most realistic way they could work.
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Once when I played D&D with friends i made my character a rogue, but I dressed in expensive aristocratic clothes, well-groomed beard and pecialized in poison We had a 30 minute discussion why it's the peak of deception.
Halo effect type of thing, you don't assume the fanciest looking member of the party is the rogue
My favorite class in D&D is rogue. My ultimate favorite is rogue/wizard arcane trickster with divination specialization. Rogue skills combined with scrying and conjuration teleportation spells is phenomenal.
they also did this with the honour among thieves movie, I think most rogues are just rich peeps
Ooooh. Sir is brave enough to steal from the rich and skilled enough to get away with it.
You mean rogue/sorcerer, with high Charisma and use wands/scrolls etc.
The best camoflage in a crowd is the crowd itself
So long as you look like the crowd. If you're taller, dressed differently or just moving around a party alone while other people are chatting with friends you'll stand out.
Of course it's possible to be distinct but still be invisible. The classic example being the postman making a delivery in the old Father Brown story but a waiter carrying a tray at a party wouldn't be some one that would be noticed because they wouldn't be important enough to be noticed.
Literally zebra camouflage
me, running into the center of any group of people having a conversation.
1st Assassin's Creed perfected that. As an assassin, you vaguely look like one of the churchmen going about their preying business and you can easily trick a casual observer.
Did you know only one of the actors to have ever played James Bond could have been in the secret service? They were all too tall...
No mention of the most ancient stealth tech available literally everywhere: pebbles.
If there's a guard by a door at night, toss a rock in the opposite direction, they'll go investigate if it was loud enough. Door: unguarded.
I tricked about 7 of my friends in their mid 20s to look around the bank of a lake for a fish that didn't exist...for half an hour...but it was me tossing pebbles from behind them, over their heads.
I told them it was a rare kind called the "Glub Fish", and it would quickly dart up from under the sand to actually breathe air...all complete fiction. One friend insisted he saw one even.
I can't believe distractions were never mentioned as a key stealth method.
You are a horrible friend 😂
@@disrespectthemwomensubjuga5471 I learned it from my dad tricking me as a kid lol. He also kept me from running off by making up a monster called "The Big Beak" and throwing rocks into bushes to make them shake, then telling me to run for my life lmao.
Yet, I became an avid outdoorsman...
@@jasonbrody8724 Put a hundred on a piece of fishing line...
Pathfinder 2e: Create a Diversion
That works outdoors, when a random pebble on the ground doesn't get noticed. Indoors, every guard with half a brain should realise something's fishy.
As someone who mastered this in highschool... the trick is to walk like you belong when you are covering long distance, but you can totally use cover to get around people. I used to dodge the campus cops constantly to dip out of "spirit rally" crap. Hell I got out of one assembly meeting by just walking with the group, in the middle, and then stopping to tie my shoe and ducking into a side alcove and letting everyone walk by. As long as you're not doing something that looks overtly suspicious in the act of breaking line of sight, once you're out of sight... you're out of mind.
A high-vis vest and a clipboard are shockingly effective for pen testers.
One sort of socialist country uses campus police to make sure you go to rallies?
@@danielcox7629 united states, mostly
@@danielcox7629 American colleges are socialist cells basically
@@danielcox7629 And people wonder why I say the US is falling into socialism. . .
Also, leather armor is so noisy, my goodness. The fact that gambison or “padded armor” in D&D is not only the least protective armor but gives disadvantage on Stealth checks is ridiculous!
I mean, this is also the same game that has Studded Leather as a legit thing, which in-game is the best light armor... lmao
@@mayuwu4408 I hate studded leather just as much as Shad, you wouldn't believe.
Keep in mind the noise was amplified by a lot through his body mic.
@@vane909090 Fair, but, still makes more noise compared to cloth
@@EpicRandomness555 not to mention, if armor would be made out of leather and not have some other means of protection like metal, in order for it to function well as armor, it would have to be hardened leather. Not the soft leather like jackets nowadays. Which in turn, would be horrible for stealth anyhow.
I played a game of D&D once where my PC was a paladin who was also a local sheriff. I started basically profiling. Any time I saw somebody wearing a dark cloak or all black, I arrested them and the overwhelming majority of the time, it turned out they were a thief or some other sort of rogue that was up to no good, or an evil wizard trying to do some terrible thing.
Best part is that my DM never figured out how I knew who the criminals were.
Despiste being a minority, People clad in Black cloaks are responsible for The majority of crimes
"You see a bunch of drunks walking out of the tavern, two ladies of the night beckoning them on...and a shadowy figure in a black cloak. Which do you suspect of the nefarious activity?"
Hm...that's a tough one.
I guess there's a basis for decisions like that in real laws. Several European countries (such as Denmark, whose law I'm quoting as an example) ban any "item of clothing that covers said person's face" - outside of stuff that serves "a creditable purpose", such as a facemask to prevent the spread of disease. That's the reasoning behind the controversial "Burqa bans".
@@piculra7441 It wasn't that deep. It was just the fact that the DM had very little imagination and just made every single character based on the standard trope, every single time. All fighters were dumb brutes. All rogues were shady figures in black leather and cloaks. All paladins were "lawful stupid". I just picked up on that very early in the campaign and used it to my advantage.
DM: "congratulations, you've arrested Aragorn and now Sauron has the ring."
“If you’re an assassin and we ask you got to tell”
“Noooo, they got rid of that rule”😂
Great delivery from both sides
The level of skill that guy demonstrates is rather impressive. Can causally pull out a bunch of knives rather quickly. And can hide them in his palm rather well even if I know its there.
You'd be surprised how easy it is if you intentionally put them like that. And I've "palmed" a large knife too just to show how easily it is to conceal knives. Don't worry, I didn't do it in public, but it scared my gf when I further proved the point of knives can come out of "nowhere". When it was in fact, right there in my hand, loose clothing can be a very good friend for rogues. Just again, make sure you look like you belong.
I like how Kingdom Come: Deliverance handled this sort of thing by giving clothes both a visibility and a conspicuousness score.
They even had a charisma score so that if you dressed nicely you could just convince people to do as you say.
also the priceless reactions of people when you're crouching: "What are you doing? Taking a shit?"
KCD got so many things right!! Looking forward to the 2nd
@@defaultytuser I think it will take place in and around Prague. It will be interesting to play the game in a big city. I wonder if that will force them to do the Assassins Creed thing where the city is filled with unnamed NPCs walking around that you can't talk with and most buildings can't be entered or if they will still model the interior of every building and script every NPC and either have to do a lot of copy paste or significantly shrink the city to allow for it.
Oh right, stealth! I will be interesting to try out KC's stealth system in a bigger and more crowded town. I suspect the conspicuousness score will matter even more than in KCD.
@@KaptenN couldn't agree more. I hope they manage to introduce such features without compromising the quality and realism that made the first one such a memorable experience. Cheers friend
@@KaptenNThere are unnamed npcs walked around the towns in the current game
You could train your sleight of hand and deception skills by convincing your barbarian you are mighty wizard.
"Grognak knows Cutpurse Stickyfingers is no thief. He a great wizard. Once he pulled rabbit from Grognak's helm and then he made a coin dissapear only to pull it out Grognak's ear."
Grognak may be onto something...
It would actually work well with basically all magic, really. The flashy ones could be used to cast a lightshow, there are ones that make concealing easier, also if you make someone a crowd is focused on invisible, they’ll panic, and so on, even using prestidigitation (the DnD cantrip) to drop some crap on someone’s head (could be literal, or metaphorical, it just needs to be small enough to fit in your hand).
Anyway, it can be surprisingly useful, even a coin just spawning in the air could cause a lot of openings
I was playing hide and seek and hiding in a bush wearing camo , the seeker couldn’t see me but they were getting close , as soon as they looked away I threw a rock kind of like a joke similar to stealth in the far cry games , he actually went to investigate where the rock had landed and left me alone
Distractions are frankly insane for stealth
What? You didn't hide under an inverted box?
ofc he did. it's could be you making sound after you trip or move notmcearfully enough
Distractions absolutely work. It's just in hind sight they seem stupid but it still needs to be good enough to fool someone.
@@MonkeyJedi99 a bunch of marines used that trick to hide from one of DARPA's autonomous drones.
Distracting someone by asking them a question is still a common tactic used by thieves today. In many European countries there are scammers that ask you for directions, and while you are distracted their accomplice begins stealing stuff from you. There are stories of people having even large possessions such as their bike being stolen just because they were looking the other way and there were other sounds to mask the sound of it being taken.
Similarly the best invisibility cloak is a high-viz tabbard, because no one notices blue collar workers, or how thieves literally come with warning signs, because what's the first thing you do when reading a remotely official looking "beware: thieves operate in this area" sign? You check your pockets and highlight where your valuables are stored.
We have used a tactic somewhat like that in our gaming.
The non-stealthy characters are set as lookouts, and distract guards or passersby while the stealthy people do the actual B&E.
This also lets our DM keep everyone engaged in the game as we shift focus from the infiltration and theft to the wizard answering uncomfortable questions from the local patrol wondering what he's doing there on the corner.
This one time that somebody pickpocketed me it was a group of foreigners asking me for directions, while also basically swarming me and pushing me against this little wall and getting way too close and touchy.
Like in theory it'd probably work but it was 2am I wasn't nearly as drunk as they thought, so a group of foreigners swarming me was more me wondering whether they'll just pickpocket me or beat me up and possibly kill me as well, than a distraction.
They ended up stealing my cigarettes and tearing my headphones cable, which sucked, because no music to calm down, no cigarettes to calm down, just left me shaking and they didn't even gain anything
A tactic Gypsies will do to steal luggage from tourists is throw a baby at you.
No, I'm not kidding.
Often times, they'll kidnap a baby (snatch them out of their strollers when parents aren't paying attention), take it to an airport, blend in by pretending to be a family, and when they spot someone that's juggling their luggage, they'll throw the baby at you. Most people (obviously) drop their luggage to catch them, and their luggage is stolen from right under them.
So... If you're playing a pretty scummy Rogue (or if you want a scummy NPC encounter) there's a tactic you could use.
True! The most closest to an irl rouge would definitely be a pickpocket
If you scream your own name repeatedly at the ground, people actively avoid looking at you, it's actually the stealthiest way to hide
but now everybody know your name
@@nicolaspeigne1429 I'm going to start saying your name then
@@nicolaspeigne1429
Or do they?
@@Dualbladedscorpion7737 I was going to say that.
This is fair
When Kramer mentioned Altaire from Assassin's Creed, you can also point out that his clothes were similar to those of the citie's monks and I think they might even have been a protected class. So his robes made sense (not so much in the following games where there were no monks).
In the first game Altair also uses the fact that he's dressed a lot like a monk to just pop into a group of monks and blend in. Ezio was dressed about as flamboyantly as anyone else around him, just with more stabbing implements (wearing a sword in public was pretty normal, it's just the armour and doodads that would have raised suspicion).
@@AGrumpyPanda also worth noting wealthy urban Italian men were fighting each other CONSTANTLY in the period AC2 & Brotherhood were set in, which is what all those towers are for. Being well armed or armored wouldn't have stood out all that much for a man of his class.
I really like that Living Anachronism is apart of this channel sometimes. I've really come to enjoy his well spoken, thoughtful, and precise content.
Agreed! Love it when Kramer gets in on the action! Great video Shad!
Kramer is a huge asset to the channel. He adds a ton of ideas clarity on those ideas.
I think a big problem for rogues (in DND) is one that affects a couple classes. The issue is that deception is shackled to charisma. A rogue that is intelligent should still be able to deceive someone even if they aren't naturally charming. Just like how a barbarian with incredibly high strength and constitution should be able to intimidate people even if his charisma is a 3.
That is true, though understandable in gaming sense. You want different characters to be good at different things to give everyone their time to shine. Of course depending on the setting, GM can decide to give players whatever rolls seems fitting.
You could easily be very rude to get people to avoid being around you while you did something nefarious.
DND does have the variant rule of allowing different abilities with each skill, like strength for intimidation or intelligence for deception. It's just up to the DM to allow that variant rule. (I do agree that it shouldn't be a variant rule and just a normal rule and make the current associations just the default, normal version of the roll.) Personally I use this rule a lot as sometimes it just makes more sense that the character is being intimidating with their muscles rather than their charisma, or that they're using their constitution and athleticism to swim a long distance underwater while holding their breath.
To be fair, Deception should be a Charisma AND Intelligence check. If you have shit Charisma and good Intelligence, you wont be able to communnicate well enough to deceive the other party even if you are a pro at the theory and if you have good Charisma but shit intelligence you would be very competent at the communicating but wouldn't have a clue on how to deceive and are too dumb to learn.
And then there's the fact that being charismatic, intimidating etc. can be quite culture-specific. In some cultures, orc for example, being the massive guy covered in scars might be the definition of charisma and intimidation, because everyone respects your strength and combat experience. Forest elves may have a different view on what is charismatic and intimidating than high elves. In some cultures, the most intimidating person is the one that holds the most information, easily blackmailing people and pulling the strings. Elsewhere, it's all about social status and family - you come from the most powerful family, or you're a high-ranking noble, and no one will dare refuse your polite requests. Knowing they would offend your entire family if they did.
I am not a commenter, i am cosplaying a commenter.
And I am cosplaying as someone replying to someone who’s cosplaying as a commenter.
Comment LARP very nice
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This is actually the principal of ninja stealth. They spent FAR more time hiding in plain sight and using disguises than they did sneaking around in a mask.
And when the did sneak around it was always at night, using elevation and the environment to hide.
this is the principal of pretty much any competent spy/assassin
not only ninjas
@@Chadnvaldr True, but I mention it because a lot of people compare rogues to ninja or try to make a ninja from a rogue. Plus spies don't have the same kind of misconception that ninja do. People know spies don't prance around in black and kill everyone in their way, but a lot of those same people think ninja do.
In this book about ninja's I have, they'd often have hide somewhere for extended periods of time. Possibly a day or more. For assassinations, once they get inside a place they'd have to wait. They'd basically have to pee and poop their pants. I've since learned a lot of those "fact" books are full of incorrect information.
@@gslinger19 Yeah, they'd "hide" as the guy who cleans the kitchen or carries the firewood or something. Ideally for weeks, until they stop noticing you're even there. THEN you strike.
@@gslinger19 Most "ninja" books are nonsense just trying to bank off of ninja myths. Check out the books by Antony Cummins if you want more credible ninja info. He's a historian that has published several translations from primary sources such as period documents. Including the Bansenshukai and Shoninki translations.
Anyone who has ever read the Dragonlance books might remember a little nugget of wisdom from Tasslehoff Burrfoot: "look like you belong and the walls will change color to match you." If you walk around looking like you're supposed to be there, people tend not to pay any attention to you. A very effective way to hide in plain sight.
Legit what Agent 47 from the Hitman series does
A human chameleon who constantly changes disguises, often to employees or guards or sometimes even just ordinary civilian clothes
That's actually a thing. It's why I don't steal, unlike many people i know. I'm high anxiety and I just can't pull off that casual I belong here attitude. You also can just grab things off racks and walk out without notice if you look like you're supposed to be having it. Ot only is this technique recommended by you common pickpocket and shoplifter, it's recommended by actual former CIA spies and workers. Look like you belong amd act like what you're doing is what you're supposed to be doing. I have friends and family that have gotten into some places they had NO right to be in, just because they acted like they belong.
Reminds me of a classmate (well he was in a different class but still) who always left early in whole school assemblies, but no one ever questioned him because he was always so confident in the way he left.
A high vis vest is stealthier than a cloak.
@@H_Eli A high vis vest, some work-looking clothes, a safety helmet, and another guy dressed the same way - and you can dig for treasure in the middle of the street.
Fun fact : in the documents that compile techniques used by the real world Ninjas, there are a douzain chapters or so... One of them is dedicated entirely to gaining your target's trust and befriending them ! Also befriending their guard dogs, so they don't bark when you go full infiltration on their mansion.
Is that a book one can read? Or is that some text written in ancient japanese where the only 3 living people who actually read it are specialized historians and linguists?
@@TheBeastCH I heard about it from gaijin goombah, an enthusiast of japanese culture and mythology...
The book does exist (in japanese) and there is a museum of ninja history where all this stuff is explained, but IDK wether or not there is a widely distributed version for the book...
@@pierre-mariecaulliez6285 So not a book you can read, but one you have to travel to japan to get a three page summary from the museum at best?
Pretty much what modern undercover spies do nowadays to gain the trust of their informants. I'm sure there are a couple of documentaries about the history of spying/special agents here on YT. I can't remember which one I saw, but it pretty much described this. Befriending the right people, gaining their trust, and not betray them ever. The only thing you do, is report the information to other people who will do things "out of nowhere". But you still want to preserve that relationship.
Regarding parkour and height, people underestimate how LITTLE people just look up. I routinely climb trees at camps and parks and very often people walk by underneath without a clue.
My fav example is when I was in a completely bare tree (early spring) in full view of the parking lot, with dozens of people coming by for my sister's party and they only noticed when I called out as they passed.
Great video and good work!
We don't really have much reason to look up as anything that would attempt to prey on us would be land based.
@@Necroverse19 that's a great point.
Or look to the sides, go off the trail far enough, those will be focused on the path and not see you.
Avoiding notice because people don't look up is true, but the issue then becomes getting down. I've been up a tree when a family set up a picnic blanket underneath me. I liked the idea of being unoticed so stuck around for little while until I got bored. Upon wanting to go back down I realised how there was no way to get down without being noticed, and seeing the family had been there a little while and would have a zero chance of not noticing someone climb their tree, my sudden presence would be seen as weird. I ended up continuing my "game" and jumped out the tree to run away, no doubt leaving the family confused but I didn't have to deal with getting "caught", not that there would have actually been consequences.
But someone in a tree is easier too notcie when you are further away, and walking towards the tree. So you need to do it in a place where there isn't long distance line of site.
Sneaking past people is surprisingly easy, whether it's hiding in a crowd or just walking up behind people and catching them by surprise. I can't even count how many times I walked right by people I know, came up behind them and were completely surprised by how I got there. People are more oblivious to others than they realize. All you have to do is not attract too much attention and have a light step.
Yeah, I had a friend in highschool that kept telling me I'm batman with how easily I disappear and reappear out of view. I just don't make too much noise while walking and didn't draw his attention until I was close
Same. Anytime I walk with ppl, everyone constantly getting surprised how easy I can disappear or go around them not noticed. And it happens with no intent from my side. Somehow just naturally I'm, as you said, not drawing attention on myself and have a pretty light step
I have that "superpower" too. So many times in highschool other kids failed to notice me (not) being there. I have heard them calling me The It. When I started college one of my nicknames there became - Phantom. Only few girls called me that, but I still don't know why is disappearing and reappearing one of the first things people notice about me.
Honestly, the fact that medieval shoes have no grip on their soles means that if the rogue were to have specialty-made shoes that did parkour would be a pretty effective escape method, since even if the people who were chasing him were athletic and could keep up they would just slip and fall.
also even if the rogue was just barefoot which gives a much greater degree of traction, balance, and flexibility than any kind of shoe even if they do have treaded soles. Could be a possible factor in the gutter rat rogue trope
Yeah even temporary measures like scuffing up the leather soles and aplications of tar or resin would be effective for an escape.
Rubber wasn't availible but cork was, mabe some types of textile binding, sinew or other material would work well even if not as wear resistant as modern shoe soles.
Low grit sandpaper or coating the soles in resin and sand would be extremely effective, but wouldn't work as well and make more noise on stone flooring. -4 Stealth with textured shoes.
To be invisible all you have to do is to present to the observer exactly what they expect to see and then they will ignore you. No spells, no disguise kit and no cover needed just be your environment and no one will see you.
Imagine *if* Elder Scrolls used Fallout’s special stats. High charisma *could* help the thief class then. No need for spells or enchanted gears then.
Just like me in school
@@whitewolf3051 Elder Scrolls should use New Vegas' disguise system: Stroll into a bandit cave wearing the same gear as them and you're just "Dave from the raiding party", show up to the Thalmor fortress in full elven armour paired with a sneer of superiority and they will let you in no questions asked, roll up to the Legion in a Penitus Oculatus officer kit and start ordering them around.
@@mnk9073 That actually does happen once in Skyrim. In the Thalmor Embassy you wear Elven armor, you become harder to detect. As a High Elf you blend in perfectly, as a different Elf it works at medium range, and as anyone else it works at long range. Unfortunately it's only for that one mission so no one will realize its actually an option, but eh.
Hiding in plain sight is exactly how you escape pursuit. You could break line of sight, stow a light jacket, calm your breathing and join a nearby crowd with smiles and light laughter.
Still love the story I heard about the Half-Orc Barbarian Rogue. Instead of stealth checks he did Intimidation checks. Any time he needed "Stealth" he would get in their face and yell "You cant see me!!!!!"
At a LARP I used to play, one guy got caught outside without a weapon when three trolls came after him.
He just yelled something like "BE AFRAID OF ME!" and the trolls paused long enough for other people to show up and fight the trolls.
I heard it works best with ORC STEALTH PAINT
🟣
Had a friend's troll rogue (Palladium) go up to people; pick them up, and tell them loudly "I'm picking your pocket." Most agreed.
@@Marinealver ITZ SPELLED ORK YA GIT. NOBODY SEEZ DA PURPLE ORK SO DEEZ MUST BE PRETTY SNEEKY
Well, cloaks make sense when it's you know... The weather for it. Autumn or early spring, when it can be rather chilly. Or or looks like it might rain.
Kinda like a person wearing something like a duster coat nowadays.
(And kinda had similar side benefits of making it harder to discern the person's silhouette and concealing smaller weapons under it)
True but people with bad intentions have been spotted because they were wearing heavy clothes in inappropriate weather.
Basically. when it seems like a reasonable decision based on the environment. The best clue for that is how the locals are dressing.
Well, in a sensible world. There's of course also the Assassin's Creed/Skyrim approach where criminal organisations wear literal uniforms, and no one notices it. 😑
A cloak makes sense at night too, a time when Rogues would be most active (Bandits/thugs/secret meetings etc)
A dark cloak will make it harder to spot you moving around, especially given how it can muddy your silhouette.
Also, it'll be cold at night so you know... Being warm is good.
One other benefit of a cloak (Including if you have say a thinner, lighter cloak for more year round cloak wearing) is the ability to obfuscate theiving. Quickly grabbing something as your cloak swishes past it, an outside observer might just think it was just the normal cloak movement, while in reality you've just grabbed something from off a table or out of someone's pocket (A bonus for pickpocketing is you have more leeway for error as the target will feel the cloak itself touch them which can mask your hand entering their pocket)
@@tarille1043 "Also, it'll be cold at night "
Depends on the region and the time of year.
Face mask during the times of some pandemics is also in that vein.
Best representation of a "rogue" I ever saw has to be Garuk from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Dude had so much charisma that even though everyone knew he was a spy and a liar they couldn't help but come to either appreciate him, or even enjoy his company. Everyone knew his game and what he was about yet no one would just outright kill him, and he got away with so much stuff. Defiantly a charisma based rogue :D
Magic, technology (including magical items), and/or enhanced abilities are almost needed in a world building where a cloak and dagger rogue can make sense.
Hypothetically you could have rogues be really popular, maybe have them be involved in the music industry. Then everyone dresses like a rogue so the rogues blend in.
@@asahearts1 This is something I see a lot with well written rogues and thieves. For instance I once played with a friend who played a bard who was basically just a rogue. She used her music career to get in places, bribe people, etc. It felt natural.
What does lipstick have to do about a rogue? Hehehe. A disguise?
@@VidelxSpopovich I have also made this character. Ever seen the guitar case full of guns clip? Used that trick a few times.
@@kingofhearts3185 That reminds me of a movie I saw once where a guy had a violin case that was a rocket launcher. I think it was a spaghetti western.
The whole idea that stealth isnt neccesarily about being quiet, just being unnoticable is great, it also applies to sound too. If you are in the city and you hear footsteps close behind you in the middle of the day, you probably wouldnt think twice about it, whereas if you are on guard duty at night and hear footsteps behind you, then thats instantly sus. You dont have to be silent, just quieter than the natural sound around you. Sneaking in a wooded area for example, there are natural sounds like wind, rain, trees rustling, birds chirping etc, as long as you are quieter than these natural sounds and not instantly distinct from them you go unnoticed. Even in the modern day when you think about say New York, there's a joke that you can tell if somebody is a tourist or if they are a New Yorker based on how they react to stuff around them, somebody randomly screams? a lot of NY people will just ignore it and go about their day whereas tourists will notice it much more.
its worth pointing out that part of being stealthy is not always important about not being detected but not being identified. The idea of the thief or spy who wears a cloak and hood is not about being unnoticed but avoid having the target know who is responsible for the crime.
the idea of the hooded and cloaked rouge is not a silly trope at all- why do so many criminals in real life choose to wear hoods and baggy clothing? to hide their identity from the authorities of course. If you can carry out your task quickly enough and escape eye contact, ditch the cloak and disappear into a crowd or the night no ones the wiser. If you are the more cut treat type of rouge, then you don't need to avoid all people noticing you just have to make sure you silence them permeant.
I was playing hide-and-seek with my cousins at a family gathering. Instead of finding an inconspicuous hiding spot, I sat down with the rest of the adults, not even hiding my face from view. I ended up winning as they ran past me half a dozen times
i tend to class stealth in one of 2 categories both of which were demonstrated in this video
Evasive Stealth, remaining unseen at all times
Social Stealth, staying unnoticed while hiding in plain sight
very informative, i like the fact that fantasy elements are given the reality treatment, makes roleplaying for more immersive
Too bad games like Skyrim only has evasive stealth.
Fallout New Vegas had a pretty good social stealth system with faction disguises. Wearing the uniform could get you past most grunts, but dogs and officers could recognize that you don't belong there.
This always bothered me!
Fantasy Rogues truly act & dress
like the most suspicious people
in their entire realm and somehow
no one ever suspects them to do
what they do.
Depends entirely on which game you're playing.
I'm actually working on a project where the setting of as established classes and one of the rogue skills is actually wearing equipment of another class and conceal their own.
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo in 5E wearing or using gear you aren't proficient in only means you do stuff with disadvantage. It doesn't mean you're stuck like a statue in plate as a wizard, or only going to maim yourself with that battle axe as a druid.
@@MonkeyJedi99 well. I'm not using D&D as reference frame. I'm using Japanese RPGs, where class unrelated equipment is basically just clothing.
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo Fair point!
Best rogue I ever knew was in a US larp called Nero, and he was a fighter-class barbarian: covered in furs and weapons, loud, boisterous, cheerful, and always friendly unless he was fighting you. And he could pick pocket and stealth like no one else, it was incredible to behold (when you could see him doing it). He was also a planner, always had an angle. But for some reason everyone kept forgetting his roguish tendencies since he was "that big loud barbarian."
Great guy, great player, and an AMAZING rogue.
I think there's an important distinction between being a rogue in a city setting and rogue in a dungeon setting.
In a city or more civilized place, blending in with the local populace is a good idea. Being well dressed and spoken helps that. If the rogue is an assassin, then maybe a focus on poisons is also a good idea as well.
But in a dungeon, if a skeleton or bandit sees you, you'll have a harder time dealing with them with your more metropolitan repertoire of skills. Maybe there a more classic rogue makes more sense.
Loved it, being a sneak thief/rogue is complicated.
According to this Elder Scrolls, Skyrim in particular, *could’ve* benefited from Fallout’s special stats, especially with charisma.
That's why the Swashbuckler is the best kind of Rogue in D&D, all the damage but none of the hiding. Also, for bonus points: You are essentially Puss in Boots, your favourite fearless hero.
I love the Swashbuckler because it breaks the stereotypical mold. Most rogues want to sneak around & stay hidden. The Swashbuckler wants everyone to see them show off their fancy dueling skills! 😂
The 'swashbuckler' is basically all of them in actual play.
Of course when there are dex-based skills involved, Kramer is your man
The concept of rogue as you seem to desribe it is very much a modern (3/3.5e) D&D concept. In AD&D Rogue was only an archetype to which Thief and Bard were the belonging classes. IMO Rogues are anything from Assassins to Swashbucklers (pirates) to Bards. I like to think we are generallytalking about characters who lack magic or formal combat training, but use their wits in conjuction with physical agility. Bronn from GoT would be an example.
Though there also IS a very specific stereotype of how rogues function in fantasy games and stories built up over time, which this likely draws from.
Rogue is such a broad word, too. A rogue could be a thief or a thug, a spy or a guerilla warrior. A rogue is just anyone that operates outside the norm.
@@aquamarinerose5405 Yeah, I agree. Did you read the first line of my comment? The Rogue stereotype as described by the gang IS very specific NOW, but it wasn't like this in the past. AND IN MY OPINION, Rogue describes a loose archetype better than a specific class because, ultimately, rogue means someone who doesn't conform to the law.
@@totallynuts7595 That's fair enough. I just make a note of it that yea it's something that is specific NOW but that's often the style and design that Shad is working with when he goes Fantasy Re-Armed. and even looking backwards to things like AD&D, Thief still uses a lot of the same functions. They're good at stabbing people in the back, moving quietly, climbing, picking pockets and disarming traps.
Isn't Bronn an experienced mercenary, though? He's more of a multi-class guy.
I was used to be called Snake for my ability to disappear. Dont know how I did it, but all of sudden people stopped to see me. Also I am friendly-looking to such a degree that once gopniks on the street when aiming to rob me suddenly "recognized" me as one of their acquaintance and let me be. I then came to a conclusion that my class is indeed a Rogue.
The best stealth disguise, is to be as plain, simple and average as possible.
Because nobody notice the average.
Or actively look like you're supposed to be there.
The always mentioned hi-viz vest with a clipboard, and a stern facial expression will let you through most doors 😅
The problem with this sneaking around is that you are expecting it, you pick up a lot less when you are bored and just standing around or moving around and doing your job instead of expecting someone or something :D
Keeping guard 8 hour shifts for like 2 years in a row, there's stuff you would totally ignore when the time comes.
Unless someone tries to sneak close to the wall 1m behind you, and during daytime.
I LOVED the skits in between each segment, especially the one where Shad and Tyanth catch Nate blatantly sneaking up on them 😂 funny stuff guys keep it up.
Must have been the wind…
Ha ha😂
I hate it when the wind randomly fires arrows at me.
Giving six hours warning? How very stealthy.
*it's a ruse...you say you'll be there in "six" hours (wink, wink) but in fact you leap out from behind the shrubbery much earlier than that totally subverting the expectations of all*
it's a trap, obviously
Perhaps pepper then with fallacious warnings for a time, then hit them in some way their past security measures did not account for based on observation, assuming they don't call the bluff at first.
Our counter-attack has not happened yet, but it will be soon.
All those territorial gains? small units taking advantage of local conditions, nothing more. Please move along.
Long before skyrim there was Han Solo, the classic Rogue.
Missed fantasy rearmed, always an intetesting watch and I always think back to them next time I see the subject in a movie game etc
10+ deception modifier would be passive deception. All DND scores have a passive(10+ modifier). This is ignored most of the time because on the stat sheet it only shows incite, investigation and perception. These 3 are the most used and it makes sense to have them shown on the sheet. If you are a DM and the character you are interacting with has a high persuasion, intimidation or deception bonus, think about weather the npc they are interacting with is an average person and will automatically be influenced by these scores. If they are not an average person, make a roll against the characters passive score to see if the npc is influenced. If the npc is on the same level as the players(in the opposing scores incite, perception, investigation) than have the player make a check against the npc.
Second to this, rolling is ADDITIONAL, at least for investigative skills. I'm not going to be staring at the wall and not notice a sconce if I roll a 1 on Perception, but I might not notice the sconce is tilted because it's also a lever.
This whole rearmed series kinda makes me want to see a series where you and others try to fit characters from other media into the fantasy setting.
No guard I was not hideing, I was adjusting my boot laces.
I'm going to backstab that like button ❤
As Living Anachronism said; one of the tricks is to sneak up on someone while they're looking at someone else. Shad and team have the manpower to do a test like that, it would be good to see Shad and Nate sparring then having Tyranth attempt to sneak up on one or both of them while they're focused on the sword fighting instead of the looking for the rogue.
I’ve always loved the concept of refuge in Audacity. Be confident enough and even if you don’t quite fit in people will assume you do because your so brazen about acting like you do. All the best heists and conmen are masters of it.
The first problem of Rogues in a D&D tabletop setting specifically, is that adventures more often than not take you away from civilization, where the wallflower act and social deception mean nothing. This is why so many of them are dressed up for gillie stealth and night-ops with masks, because a random dungeon monster is not likely to either know nor care about your facade.
But the second and much greater problem is that rogues don't get innate magic, but rely on mundane skills and there's nothing a skill can do that magic can't do better, especially since the PnP game publishers can't help but overtune magic.
It's not surprising as to why; magic is flashy, easy to use, and from a developer perspective, easy to create content for. With mundane skills, you're always pushing up against believe-ability and suspension of disbelief in some form or another. But with magic? You don't have to explain it.
A little late to the conversation but I think an interesting topic to explore in this vein is what armour would work best for stealth purposes? There are a couple ways to frame this - armour that is concealable that can be worn in settings where armour would be out of place and armour that can be worn when trying to sneak around undetected. Thoughts?
I think there is much to be said about rogues that wear the same type or armor as the party's warrior, just less flashy. The better types of armor, like brihandine or plate, aren't too noisy, unlike chainmail or scale.
Having the mask of many faces from the eldritch adept feat in dungeons and dragons gives you unlimited uses of the disguise self spell, which is perfect when you don't want disappear from a crime scene. You can change your appearance every time you find a place to hide. Perfect for a rogue.
Before the video even starts I have an idea of the content.
The biggest problem comes from a leak of understanding of how someone would actually dress or behave in real life. If someone were out on an adventure and fighting monsters and sneaking into dangerous areas, out just trying not to be recognized, sure the typical rogue look make sense. But it doesn't make sense to look like that all the time. Most people just expect their adventurers to look like adventurers all the. This is partly videogames and animes fault. Videogames because forcing you to not wear your armor in town sucks cause you can't look at them in or take cool screenshots, and because manually changing gear yourself is a pain. Anime because characters clothes almost never changes ever.
But things like D&D used to have penalties for things like sleeping in armor.
Back when s lot of these stereotypes were established, people generally head a better understanding of how people of the past thought than we do now.
Jarlaxle, the dark elf rogue-mercenary leader of the D&D Forgotten Realms, deliberately dresses as flashy and ostentatiously as possible. We're talking giant floppy wide-brimmed hat, pimp daddy feather, open-chest vest, knee-high clompy hard boots, no apparent weapons, and bling for miles.
I suppose if he poses enough distraction, then that makes it easier for his more conventional rogues to do their thing.
Artemis Entreri is another good example of a badass rogue in a different manner than Jarlaxle.
He doesn't wear hard clompy boots, he wears boots covered in trinkets to make him jingle when he walks.
In our campaign of year and a half right now (goodness we've been going on in this world for a while), we have a rogue in our party, and he is such a cunning, smart and charismatic person that it's not even funny. Like his character is played by him, right? So everything his character says and does is his thinking and planning, and just honestly, everything he does are on the line of either absolute genius or just psychotic. And he's just so damn clever with his words that even me irl could actually be tricked by him.
Nate successfully sneak attacking Shad while he was distracted by spotting Tyranth was legendary 😂
Okay, haven’t watched yet but I love the title and thumbnail already.
I recently played a criminal in a game of D&D 5e and my character was essentially a rich douchebag philanthropist adventurer by day, real dressed up fancy with gold and such, and by night he committed robberies and sometimes by accident the occasional murder. Oh course he never dressed like a rogue during the day and in fact he wasn’t a rogue but a shadow monk/fighter. Very fun character, got a lot of flak though for not dressing like a traditional rogue literally every second which I thought was unrealistic.
I always find it amusing when fantasy fans use the word "'realism" to describe what's conventional for the genre. Especially as it's a genre full of tropes that are incredibly unrealistic.
@@maggiepie8810 I think when most people, myself included, talk about realism in fantasy games or settings we are talking about what would be realistic within the rules of that fantasy world. Now, if we use D&D again for a quick example we can see that to some degree we are expected both as players and Game Masters to cooperatively simulate the characters , creatures, and interactions of the setting which themselves are based on our own understandings of real world interactions of comparable stature. So, using Shad’s example, a thief dressed like that draws suspicion because he is dressed in a manner which most people conflate with criminal activity. Just like if you were to see a shady looking fellow in a hoodie with hood up hands in his pockets looming behind you, you’d likewise be suspicious of him.
So, the take away is that such attire for a fantasy thief might be a bit silly when we really think about how people would reasonably react to it in public within the setting. It’s just too conspicuous which I believe is the point Shad was trying to make.
It works quite fine if the character wears that sort of outfit with some kind of mask to hide their identity while their out on a robbery or whatever it is they do, but the way it’s depicted in film, games and other media as their standard outfit is as I’ve suggested a bit hard to swallow for many people. Especially those of use who enjoy emersion.
*especially when you were expected to wear the name tag on your attire with the word "ROUGE" emblazonment on it like a neon sign...yeah, totally inconspicuous whist walking through a village or dining within a dangerous poorly lit tavern known for its spontaneous and all too frequent melee altercations over misunderstandings on meals and conversing with the shapely serving wenches with low slung nearly unfettered cleavage...and an eyepatch*
@@scottmantooth8785 I mean yeah, that seems to be the expectation a lot of people seem to have of rogues or characters being played as criminals.
Funnily enough I think the best Rogue I ever played was a Wizard. Long story short I ended up taking advantage of the lack of Inns in the first port town that the party came to with a spell that makes temporary towers. Exploiting the economy is very roguish I think.
@@VidelxSpopovich *that's just being precisely where you wanted to be as a wizard would normally do, but making a profit at the same time which is exceptionally clever*
when we were young, me and my brother played "Stealth Game". one of us walked around in a fixed pattern cycling through canned voice lines while pretending to have terrible memory and peripheral vision, and the other tried to tag them without being caught.
I love this man! Kramer!
also love the shared greenery background between Shad and Kramer
Funny thing is, when you have dragons and giants with high stealth in D&D.
Sure, I suppose they could be good at hiding when immobile, masking themselves as a hill covered in undergrowth etc. ... sort of like crocodiles that employ stealth for hunting.
But trying to imagine a sneaking giant or dragon... that's another thing.
The only stealth giant I can think of would be the horror movie killers, one of them snuck through motion activated lights to murder someone.
Depends on the size, I guess. If they were about the size of an Elephant I could easily see stealth being viable. There's been at least one case of Elephant's sneaking onto farms to steal food, and with sufficient hills or bush can appear out of nowhere and disappear just as quickly when they feel like it. For a Skyrim sized Giant that has much more control over its silhouette than an Elephant does, I can easily see them being pretty stealthy. Even if the Dragon is distinctly larger, with the right coloration in the right environment that would be difficult to spot as well, despite its size. A green Dragon spread out over some grass would be pretty hard to notice at a distance the Dragon can cover in a few moments.
Also worth pointing out, I read a while ago that when it comes to stealth, something being larger *or* smaller than expected can make it harder to see. You would think that a 7' tall giant standing in a dark corner would stick out like a sore thumb, but if a searcher is expecting to see a Human-sized Human and doesn't see a Human-sized Human in that dark corner, they can avoid being seen. Make that person double the size and give them camouflage, and they'll be able to hide about as easily as anyone else.
Well every class in D&D is supernatural even if they don't outright cast spells.
I've always just assumed that there are lots of people dressed hooded in black in fantasy worlds even if not everyone is a rogue out to rob and assassin every single person they meet. :p
"If its easier for them to access it's easier for you to access" now thats a motto to live by ^^
This video is the best advice for playing rogue
7:15 Haha the NPC walk xD
From the thumbnail... It's like the videogame ninja
About parkouring and shoes: there are some shoes before modern times that did have some grip. Waraji (in japan) for example was chosen because of the grip especially (and because it was cheap/easy to make in case it broke). Both for long journeys and for physical labor. Googling seems to indicate that they existed at least in 700's, if not even before. They are made from straws or sometimes from ropes - a thing that did exist also in europe - so its highly likely europeans also made shoes from ropes or straws and wore something similar for better grip. In north europe they made shoes from bark called "bast shoes", these were used by various labor workers especially near water - dry forests would wear these kinda shoes and tore apart but moist/wet environment was where they shined - altho they also were used in parties/festivals from before AD up until church started disliking them around 1600's. Not sure if either of these shoes would be great for jumping on roofs but they do offer more grip than what city people mostly wore: leather shoes. Leather is slippery yes (so is wooden shoes) but that was not the only type of shoe people had available. I bet that these would help going over walls tho.
Dnd rearmed is my favourite series of yours, I'm so glad that you're doing another video in it
Makes me think of my Rogue. He was a Swashbuckler, cause if it came to a fight he'd rather use an actual weapon and not a dagger, and his sneaking came from the fact he was a Winged Tiefling. He could enter people's homes from an avenue no one really expected, being Windows, Baloneys, or Chimneys if he really had to. Ended up multiclassing into Warlock and got a Quasit Familiar. Little guy can shapeshift into an inconspicuous birb or infiltrate a building and open a window for him if you're going after a wizard with alarm.
I remember in never winter i had a monk that had 1 level in rogue so that every hit he landed on a stunned opponent counted as a back stab
this was such a good episode, thanks guys for the great work of art you do!
A quarter of the way through and already loving it. The skits are everything and I enjoy the discussion in general. I love the Fantasy Rearmed series.
Rogues, while they do have proficiency in Intelligence saving throws, actually could lean into Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence. There’s actually some subclasses now days that use one each. Inquisitive Rogues use Wisdom, Swashbuckler Rogues use Charisma and Arcane Tricksters and Mastermind Rogues use Intelligence.
Also, Rogues have an interesting problem in D&D currently. While they are intended to be stealthy, they can only use ability checks to be unseen. But a Druid can turn into an animal no one pays any attention to and the same with a Wizard’s familiar or a Ranger’s animal companion, if you’re just trying to see in somewhere. Rogues funnily enough, have to really follow the rules in order to do what they do.
I was not aware an item of ladies makeup was so versatile. Truly, we should be applying more rouge. Never mind about all this rogue business.
@@andyknightwarden9746 I...
shut up lol
@@EpicRandomness555 😁
Well I’ve learned from playing with a rubber knife in airsoft , wearing dark clothes , having a not well lit environment and staying as low as possible and always using cover to obscure myself helps alot. I basically run from cover to cover, and because there is a lot of mayhem on the airsoft field they don’t notice and if they do notice because the field is small and densely packed with halls and cover I just come at them from a different angle. Or sometime I have to hide near enemy spawn in a corner and wait. Using dummy grenades also lets me control where the enemy is.
Yup. I have quite a few confirmed "knife kills" in paintball from literally crawling slowly across the combat zone. People don't look for you there, after all only an idiot would crawl across the open field! It just takes patience knowing when people are distracted enough to move, and how/where to make such a ballsy push.
> "medieval shoes just have no traction"
My friend, you forget the all important Slippers of Spider Climbing!
Rouge is one of my favorite classes to play! Really greatful you guys took an indepth look at the class!
Wait, who was Shad shouting at in the beginning there? Must have been the wind...
the npc man references are real.
Really cool to see how much Shadiversity has improved over the years.
I was wondering when Kramer would show up on the channel. His announcement was so long ago, but I'm glad he's here.
I CAN SEE YOOOOU
Its a well known thing in dnd
The best rogue is an illusion wizard
Wearing black gear over colorful garb can be very useful, as after comiting the act, duck out of sight and remove the black, come out the other way as if you just turned a corner, and now you are a colorful character who looks distinctly different from the dark rogue that is being chased. A reversible garb of black on one side and colorful inside could work as well. Just make sure to change how you walk and hold yourself as you change character.
Loved the sketches in this. And Kramer's work is stellar as usual. These discussions are fantastic.
the fact that rogues can just melt into the shadows after stabbing someone, and do it again 6 seconds later is... interesting.
Lowkey why I prefer something like Hitman over more modern AC titles. Both titles have you use social stealth (disguises and blending into crowds) to hide yourself from enemies but revealing yourself in Hitman usually has enemies on high alert until you finish the level while in AC you can become anonymous again and pretty much reset the guards.
Maybe carrots are just in short supply in fantasy realms.
I think if your DM is running it like that you need to have a talk with them.
That has always bothered me about D&D rouges and if I were to GM (I understand this would nerf the class pretty hard so grain of salt), but I would only let a rouge use sneak attack only once per encounter (not day, or per long or short rest, but per encounter) That way they are actually having to be cleaver rather then just "I sneak attack and hide" every round.
@@rabbidcreature9681 I think you’re maybe misunderstanding how Sneak Attack works. It’s tied to Advantage these days not necessarily stealth. Basically it you can use it as long as you would have Advantage on your attack. So in that sense you could think of it as exploiting an enemy’s weak point or attacking them from behind or with a feint.
The 5 stages of Agro in any videogame: Ignore, Aware, Suspicious, Aggravated, Fatigue
-Ignore: the game knows where your avatar or pieces are at all the time, you can't hide from the game. However the game can set the behavior of the NPCs to remain idle or not activate when you are close by.
-Aware: This is for non-hostile NPCs be friendly or neutral. They will trigger with passive actions at your presence, maybe give a dialogue line or two, even follow or track you but for the most part there will be no hostile actions.
-Suspect: This is on the border of non-hostile to hostile NPCs. They won't attack just yet but they will act more aggressive, either searching you out, giving a "Warning dialogue" to increase the tension, may even block your path and get in the way. The trigger to the next stage depends on 3 questions; who are you (playing as), where are you, what did you do. When those questions are triggered the NPC will move up to the next stage. If the triggers are not done with a certain time they will revert back to Ignore or Aware.
-Aggravated: This is where the NPC is hostile and will begin to attack you. If you are able to "break" the tracking of the NPC it will revert to Suspect. You can also trigger other breaking behavior to bring it to the next stage.
-Fatigue: This is to simulate the Fight or Flight instincts of people and animals. When you are now seen as a threat they can't handle the NPC will try to end the fight either by breaking contact, or making one last suicidal attack to defeat you.
I'm glad Kramer's a part of your team now
Only time I can think of all-black/dark clothing working is in a night context where you're sure the light won't shift, and you'd probably want it to be relatively normal-looking clothing in case someone bumped into you.
I was playing hide-and-seek in an underground parking lot once and because I was wearing all black, I just went to the end of a dark hallway and stood there. Because the seeker was standing under a lamp, she looked straight at me and didn't see anything. Best stealth moment ever. But if she'd had a flashlight, I would've been very much screwed.
So Rogue is technically a ninja right?
They don't sneaking around but blending with environment, don't make a move until there's enough information and using everyday tools as a weapon to hide it from their enemy
Ninja is technically a rogue. Rogue is a general term for a "class" type, while ninja refers to a certain group of clans in a certain culture.
i believe every rogue would follow the monk logic: to dress like the local population, monks use farming tools as weapons in order to mix in the crowd, so rogues should behave like the local friendly worker that you would never consider to be violent.
Every shinobi had a normal job... preferably one that would explain their presence.
@@ulrichkalber9039 The best cover job was the human dung remover. No one ever wanted to be near you. ^^
I just mentioned in another comment thread how I used to play a Shadow Monk/Fighter in 5e who operated a lot like a rogue using the very principals you just explained. In fact he ended up joining the local guard as a cover and became a very rich man after pinning his crimes on a drow assassin who he captured thus making himself a hero of the people for catching a serial killer. Later he would use his position of power to become a mob boss while still working with the guard after leveraging his position to start pushing other gangs out of their territory using the guard. Someday I hope to run a game with him as the main antagonist.
confidence and not being first is key. I've been getting three bus rides for ages by presenting my uni library card as if it was a bus pass
also do not underestimate the power of just not moving when hiding. If a corner is pitch black, or you are in a messy area, you can get away with just standing or sitting somewhere and not many will notice.
CONTEXT! Cloak and daggers are for sneaking and stabbing at night into poorly lit enemy camps or dungeons where you don't belong and the guards would fill you with arrows regardless of who you were or what you looked like. Obviously, they don't work at noon in the market square, but if you really really had to slit someone's throat in the streets in broad daylight, you would want your face covered to prevent people from identifying you. The hood of the cloak is the most inconspicuous because it was a very common accessory.
Now these are some of my favorite videos!
0:40 That‘s why the Swiss Army knife was invented. Takes way less space away.
You could say that Shad is very...observant.
Good stuff Shad and company love this channel! 🙏🏽❤️😊⚔️
the roll looked better then i expected haha good work
The ultimate rogue play is you have two guys dressed as workers carrying a ladder, can get you almost anywhere