How 9mm Parabellum Became the World Standard - Gun Guys Ep. 33 with Bill Wilson and Massad Ayoob
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- čas přidán 27. 05. 2024
- Ever since its widespread use in World War I and its subsequent rise in popularity among military and law enforcement agencies around the world, the 9x19 Parabellum round, or 9mm, has become the most widely used caliber in handguns, submachine guns, and other small arms, accounting for over 20% of all ammunition sales. In this episode, Bill and Mas break down the advancements in the adoption of the 9mm cartridge, and some of the obstacles and limitations it has overcome throughout the years.
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Bill Wilson has always been infatuated with guns. Originally trained as a watchmaker, he has been in the firearms industry since 1974, starting out with a retail store called Sportsman's Headquarters in Berryville, Arkansas. Since that humble beginning, he has built Wilson Combat into the largest and most successful custom firearms company in America. Since 1977 Wilson Combat has been the leading innovator in high-performance, custom 1911 handguns, tactical long guns and accessories
A Wilson Combat product’s unmatched level of exceptional reliability and peerless craftsmanship is only equaled by our legendary customer service. Wilson Combat is proud to service all levels of local and State law enforcement including The Department of Homeland Security, US Border Patrol, HQ SOCOM, US Marshal's Service, US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, Diplomatic Security Service, Texas Rangers and many more elite law enforcement and military units worldwide. We are also pleased to support the needs of thousands of law-abiding private citizens in the United States and in many other countries abroad.
ABOUT MASSAD AYOOB:
Massad Ayoob has been handgun editor of GUNS magazine and law enforcement columnist for AMERICAN HANDGUNNER since the 1970s, and has published thousands of articles in gun magazines, martial arts publications, and law enforcement journals. He is the author of some twenty books on firearms, self-defense, and related topics, including “In the Gravest Extreme” and “Deadly Force,” widely considered to be authoritative texts on the topic of the use of lethal force.
The winner of the Outstanding American Handgunner of the Year Award in 1998, Mas has won several state and regional handgun shooting championships. Ayoob was the first person to earn the title of Five Gun Master in the International Defensive Pistol Association. He is the current President of the Second Amendment Foundation. He served 19 years as chair of the Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, and several years as a member of the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association. In addition to teaching for those groups, he has also taught for the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors and the International Homicide Investigators seminars.
Mas has received judicial recognition as an expert witness for the courts in weapons and shooting cases since 1979, and served as a fully sworn and empowered, part time police officer for 43 years, mostly at supervisor rank. Ayoob founded the Lethal Force Institute in 1981 and served as its director until 2009, and now trains through Massad Ayoob Group. He has appeared on CLE-TV delivering continuing legal education for attorneys, through the American Law Institute and American Bar Association, and has been retained to train attorneys to handle deadly force cases through the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Ayoob served for two years as co-vice chair of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He also appeared in each episode of Personal Defense TV (Sportsman’s Channel). - Sport
Really glad Massad's still around. Grew up reading his articles in gun magazines in the 80's and 90's and the guy is a wealth of knowledge.
He is knowledgeable but boring. U think hes an article guy... not meant for a riveting video
@@joshuataft5541 Attention Span is very short today. People are too simple minded.
Same! I still have some of those!
as a millenial I can concur. Young people cannot pay attention and are poor listeners. They need to pull it together and learn to respect those older than them or I will whip them with my belt and I'm Asian.
I have watched him through the years and really enjoy his expertise. I don't find him boring at all because when he talks you know it's coming from experience.
Mr. Massad, sorry to see that arthritic right thumb. As a retired physician we called that “an arthritic dislocation”. As an old man now, I have the same, and struggle to rack some slides. I still carry a 1911 .45 though (over 50 years. I even carried in my medical office). You Sir are a true legend and I respect your work and dedication. Thanks!
Awww You poor poor dears, can't rack your expensive custom hand tuned 45s..... Nothing feminine like a bitching Leisure Geezer 😑
It’s why I use a S&W EZ slide, I can’t rack a Glock or Sig, besides bad thumbs I’m partially paralyzed in my left hand.
You should at least see a hand surgeon. Might be able to improve that thumb.
@@brianmolstad1255 beyond that at this point, is what it is, but the EZ slide easily works.
Seed-oil and oxalate hands.
My wife earlier, when I was rearranging my ammo stash....
“How many bullets do you need???”
Me: All of them
I have the same wife problem and your reaction.
Mine says, we need more🤣🤣🤣🤣!
Me to wife!! How many shoes you need?
@@kennethmoore2266 Mine: well boots, flats................. lets talk about guns.
Me: trip to shoe store hun??
I'm truly blessed for mine encourages me to get more and thinks we don't have enough, she's sees it as a nessecity
These two gentlemen have forgotten more than other so-called experts know. When these men share knowledge, pay attention.
speak for yourself NUMB NUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can pay attention to these men now....
Or pay 💲💲or your LIFE later if you don't....
What they say is GOLD in the world of LEAD today‼️✔‼️
I really appreciate the discussion of aging shooters. I love my 45 ACPs, 45 Colts loaded to the max, and my 44 magnums, but I find myself reaching for my 9mm’s more and more often. Getting old is a blessing that requires adjustments. I have been slow to admit that to myself.
Plus you are a damn good shot.
45s are better to shoot than 40s. But i like my G19Gen 4 in 9mm.
Aging shooters? LOL. These guys can still outshoot and outfight anyone on the internet.
All respect to both of these guys but I have to say:
As time goes on Ayoob’s voice gets deeper, he talks slower, and his eyes get farther apart. Eventually he will transcend into pure energy so he can appear as a force ghost to shooters all over the world and give them tips...
@@deskgamesix he never said they couldn't, now did he?
My favorite quote: "buy them cheap, and stack them deep".
!
the same goes for stock too hehe
I stack precious metals..........Gold, Silver & Lead.......
I can stack them deep, but can you tell me where I can buy them cheap?
I agree. Repeat, I agree. However, now people need to stop buying!!! Stop!!!! Prices are up because idiots are buying.
My "9" comes with a really cool headstamp on the the cartridges. It says, ".357 Magnum".
🤣😂🤣
9+P++ +
I carry both
My 45 has a cool headstamp as well, it says 45 Super.
My Desert Eagle says the same thing..
Massad is such a cool character I am sure everyone in Law enforcement that ever had contact with him has nothing but respect.
Some people dont like him because hes not a big city SWAT cop or tier 1 SF guy. 🙄 ... I've read and heard MFA's content since the 1980s. I dont agree with everything he says but Ayoob knows a lot. Any serious CCW users, police should review Ayoob's articles, videos.
@Frank Caltabiano Best wishes for long life and good health for Mas . But with him over 70yo now , might want to strive for sooner rather than later .
*Correction-
The most critical factors are shot placement, shot placement, shot placement, attorney. 👍
Oh that sounds wonderful. It would also be wonderful if the bad guy stays put, offers you a nice center mass target, and adrenaline isn't flowing through your adrenal system like a firehose. People that say at obsess over the "shot placement" mantra to the exclusion of all other factors seem to discount the fact that shot placement in the real world frequently means just hitting the bad guy anywhere you can. Dismissing the importance of terminal ballistics is done at your own peril.
15:23
@@chuckschillingvideos and yet you refute the experts that just spoke. So what books on stoping power did you write. In fact what books at all...did you write on this subject! Did you know that in Israel the bullet of choice to kill a person is the 22.... to the face or head?
Where I live it would be more like: shoot, shoot, shoot > shovel.
It's easier to place your shot if your shot is larger though.
I never get tired of listening to Massad Ayoob. He is the best of the gun experts and has a memory like a steel trap.
I carried a Browning Hi Power decades ago. The amount of grief I endured from the “ it must start with 4””” guys was amazing. My Browning held 13 rounds back then and their mags held 7. I even had 20 round mags back then. I had 357s, 38 supers, and 44s, which all had more power, but to carry everyday, it was the Browning for me. It’s funny to see everyone carrying 9s now. And, the 9 was certainly not responsible for the incident described in 86. Thanks for the video.
Well you must be absolutely ANCIENT then because Para-ordnance has offered double stack .45 1911 frames since 1993.
The amount of firearms knowledge these gentlemen have never ceases to amaze me.
Amazing what you can fill your brain with when you can barely think past arming yourself.
@@tvviewer4500 it seems you don't like guns so why are you even here
@@The_Koolman I like guns, why you hating?
@@tvviewer4500 all the comments of yours that i have read thus far make it seem like you don't like guns
@@The_Koolman Your knees must hurt from taking such leaps..
Two Masters. You listen when these two speak. Both amazing.
I agree with you. There is some damn good 9mm out there right now.
I wholeheartedly agree!
@Robert Seasrs I love 9mm and I hunt and fish am an avid shooter. I have my own range on my property and have military and civilian training. I can tell from your moronic comments you're not only a complete idiot and trolling for your jollies, you know nothing about ammunition. If you think 9mm is so weak then why don't you go ahead and take a round in your body and then, if you survive, you can tell us just how weak it is and how you barely felt it, dumbass.
@Robert Seasrs There are so many idiots out there these days that I can't even tell if you are serious or just joking. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're joking around. 😎
"Pride is the sign of a foolish man". When you miss all your rounds my glock will have 30 more to go.
The incident you speak of in 1986 had such an impact on me that I dedicated myself to regular training in my free time throughout my entire law enforcement career. I've been retired five years now. I am still training.
I bookmarked this video before it began playing. I suppose that I should watch it now.
Yeah come on let's watch Bill and Massad drop some old school knowledge.
How’s it going these days?
How you doing thoutdoors9? We still watch your ammunition review videos.
Miss your videos!
When you know it's gonna be worth saving before you even hit play.
Great insight gentlemen. From an Australian who by law can't defend himself with a pistol. Hope you never give up the right to self defence. Cheers, and love your show.
Then quit voting for that dung. Quit buying products from woke companies. They need you more than you need them.
I always love to hear two living legends get together and talk, and yes the 9mm is here to stay. Thanks guys.
@Robert Seasrs I agree 9mm is a week round but then again I think your a weak individual for talking shit about people behind a screen name lol. Your a wimp.
@@williamgreene5488 Hard to take seriously someone who confuses weak and week and wimp and whimp.
@Robert Seasrs Did you even watch the video?
@Robert Seasrs Better to be a pussy than a asshole looser.
@Robert Seasrs It was obvious you didn’t watch it all.
Gentlemen, thank you for this excellent video.
Like you fellows, I’m an older shooter (75 next month and 60 years of experiences). And like so many of “us” I started - and I still own, use and esteem - .357 magnums/.38 Specials and .45 ACPs. However - and I take NO pleasure in this conclusion - the firearm that sits 10 feet away from me now is a CZ-75B, loaded with 17+1 rounds of Atlanta Arms Elite 124 grain 9x19mm JHPs. It is extremely unlikely that any non-LEO defensive encounter will require that many rounds, but this is a “house gun” and there is no penalty for higher capacities.
With all this said, I’d be perfectly comfortable with six 125 gain .357 magnum rounds in my Smith, five inch, Model 27.
Agreeable! I 68y.o./65 yr shooting exp.(still have the 1931 .22 bolt/single I started with)! House-rod is GP100 6in w/GA 180gr/760 ft lbs. Doubles as fav deer hunter. Fav pocket-carry of 25yrs was irreparably damaged by DUMBASS cop. Now I finding it difficult to replace due to different mind-set of design to satisfy modern demands. Dealers rather sell new(for higher profits) than "horse-trade" and keep moderate inventory of "oldies" to sell to senior citizens concerned w/ protection rather than video games!
.357 will stop bear .....
@@lfader
Yes, and I’ve read that a .22 LR round hit the eye socket, and killed one of those huge Alaskan Brownies. However, when I’m in bear country (and every Summer I spend time in the remote Conejos Valley along the Colorado - New Mexico boarder) I prefer something larger(10mm or .45 Colt +P).
Living in a state with severe magazine restrictions, I will stay with the .357 magnum.
@@k_enn Indeed , during the 10yr Clinton era AWB , the hot item in semiauto pistols was ..... Mid sized .40S&W or .45acp .
Personally , my preferences run strongly twords Revolvers and Single Stacks , but I'm just reporting the consumer demands , and Mfg emphasis of that era .
I used be a big proponent of the .45 auto when I was younger. I was full of piss and vinegar and my only thought was “knock down power”. But as I got older and more proficient in my marksmanship skills, not to mention that I am a lot more mature and calmer now under stressful situations, I realized that lots of rounds of 9mm, center mass will disconnect the pump station of a bad guy just fine. Pump station disconnected, bad guy goes down. Plus, I can just flat out be a lot more accurate with my placement with 9mm compared to a .45 or a 10mm.
The best part of watching your vids ((including Mr Hack’)…is the simplicity of the conversation and the amount of knowledge spread! 💪🏻🇵🇷
Can’t argue that 9mm is still the most popular, but still love 40 S&W.
Bet someone could outshoot all of you with a 9.
10mm is the best mm. Besides when you got a G29 in 10mm you see what a joke the 40 short and weak really is.
@JOe DeLeon Best also means cost. What's the cost comparison between the 9 and 40? What about the differences in terminal ballistics between the two?
@JOe DeLeon Next to 10mm...
@Robert Seasrs If you train that much to be good with a 10, you'll be a godlike shooter with 9.
That's why people like 9mm so much, it's much cheaper to train and the training level you have allows you to perform better than someone of the same level with a higher caliber. There's a reason power factors exist in shooting competitions.
I've shot big bore pistols and rifles for nearly 50 years. I've quit shooting them due to the accumulated punishment on my body. I never considered myself recoil sensitive until the last few years. I've come to discover I can still enjoy shooting and competing in a few matches with 9mm. I've never been the biggest AR fan, but I have recently enjoyed the mild recoil from 223 ARs and bolt guns. I even switched over to .243 full-time on my whitetail rifle. I had first hand experience on that 9mm power. Out checking pig traps with a 9mm S&W M&P 4" on the hip and had a big sow come out of a trap because the trap door didn't close correctly. One round of 147 gr. Hydrashok in the neck and she never took another step. Good enough for this old man. And with old eyes I'm a huge fan of red-dots.
Mr. Wilson, thanks for channel and the guntalk series. I've really enjoyed them. And thanks to Mas for sitting down and imparting wisdom.
Gotta love Massad Ayoob and his infinite knowledge.
Long story short, bullet technology, the need for capacity and less recoil.
Yep 💯. Easy to carry, easy to find ammunition(price), lower recoil, easy to find gear-parts-holsters.
Depends on what your doing, you might only have time for 1 or maybe 2 shots and NEED to make them count.
* Percieved * need for capacity from both institutional purchasers and general public , reasonably adequate power/ effectiveness , and user friendliness on par with the benchmark of prior 75- 100 years , the .38 Special .
The lastest , greatest , Super Duper bullet technology ( both actual improvements , and the massive hype thereof ) are just frosting .
Accurate Statement -
9mm with proper Bullets are Plenty suitable for LE Duty , and ( non large animal ) self defense ,While also having other organizational advantages .
Problematic Statement - Modern high tech 9mm is " Best " , or As Good As ( fill in various traditional Serious Calibers ).
Surprise ! Various bullet design concepts and technology can be applied to other calibers also !
@@filianablanxart8305 Your Surprise comment is the one I chuckle about the most. As if no advanced bullet technology ever finds itself implemented on any other caliber.
I'm a "younger man 33) and I have been shooting since I was 8 years old. And I never get tired of listening to you two talk about guns. As much as I already know, you both teach me more. I love yalls vids.
My edc is a 9 mm. But I always love my 45s !!
".44 Magnum is not as fun as it used to be."
Truer words never spoken.
Lousy arthritis
Awesome wisdom
Well, I still have mine that I bought long ago, as an everyday carry while I lived in Alaska. I don't shoot it much these days if at all. I just turned 66, and I don't shoot the heavy rifles either as I did, I hunted a lot with 338's 375's, and 416's. I do all my hunting now with either a 7 x 57, 6.5 x 55, or a 7mm RM. And I am looking to buy a 257 Roberts or a 243. The game I shoot run about 100 to 150 pounds. So a 243 or a 30-30 would be plenty.
Mitch...Try high performance model 29 S&W SNUB NOSE WITH 300 GRAIN HP HORNADY
I never found .44 Magnum fun to shoot, except in Thompson Contenders due to the longer barrel and the heavier weight of the weapons. But otherwise after a ox or two, I am done for the day.
.44 magnum ammo is also "not as affordable as it used to be."
It was nice to hear you remembering Pat Rogers, Masaad. He was a great guy, I still miss him. 🙏
My favorite round is the 357 mag . I can put a smile face on a silowet target at 10 yards . Nine mill is good . It will do the job , but nothing like the 357 mag
Technically .357 is 9mm.
Mine has become .327 magnum but it's so expensive and hard to get now.
@@chrisb7528 the neat thing is you can shoot 38 357 9 mm with the same gun 🔫 . It sucks that my dad past away a few years ago . However I got his reloading equipment .
@@fredschmidt6802 I'm glad his reloading equipment went to a good home,sorry about your loss. I'm looking at .357 mag for next purchase. My Ruger LCRx shoots .327 mag, 32 H&R mag, .32 long/short and .32 ACP in a pinch but I love .357 mag versatility as well,especially in an ammo crisis.
Right. Can't go wrong with a 357 mag, an all around carry revolver, but my aging hands tell me to just stick to my Model 36 with a 3" bull barrel in 38 Spl.
Always great to listen to Massad Ayoob.
I enjoy the firearm wisdom from some of the wisest in the industry! Thank you gentlemen! Keep it coming
Around 8 to 9 minutes in they start talking about the variety of ammo available in 9mm.....
2020 enters and says “hold my beer”
What's "in the catalog" does not equate what gets to the shelf. Today's catalogs are truly like the old Sears&Roebuck "wish books" but instead of wishing you had it, you wish THEY had it.
In 2020 that applied to everything , eventually . Admittedly , in times of ammo panic , the highest selling calibers get wiped out first .
As an aside , for a hypothetical perminent shortage , ( among popular semiauto ctgs) .45acp is least dependent upon needing specific high performance ammo . Any .45acp JHP from any mfg is " not terrible " . Worst case of only finding " fmj practice ammo " , Bigger is Better .
I could sit and listen to you guys for hours! God bless you both.
I just want to say I have been a huge fan of Assad Mayoobe most of my life . The man is a legend.
We need one of these every day
I agree with Massad on a couple of points. I carried a Commander 1911 for years. With changes in politics and urban areas, it is now 15 +1 of 9mm.
I love both. If I had to pick .45 ACP all day everyday. Eight rounds with an extra mag is all I need.
USP 45... I get 12+1 of 45 acp. I still like 9mm and even 5.7x28mm, but in an ammo shortage at least 45 FMJ can be still be used for self-defense.
@Dirk Platinum my FNX45 with 45 Super laughs at 10mm
@@fairlanemuscle FNX10 should have been a thing.
Mas and Bill are on point, as usual!!!
I have used both the 9mm and the 45acp for me it will always be the 45acp in a 1911 with a lot of extra mags
I agree!!! I do carry a Glock Model 22 in .40 on duty but off duty it is .45 all the time!!!
One thing everyone leaves out of the discussion anymore is knock down power. And “fire power” for me will always be accuracy over more lead in the air. Hell will freeze over before I give up my 1911 .45 acp!
@Dirk Platinum The 10mm is indeed more powerful and has more "knockdown" than the .40 or .45 (I will not even mention the 9mm) but the recoil is brutal with full power loads. Once you "download" the 10mm you have the .40 so there it is.
@Dirk Platinum The 10 mm is best in the field as a hunter, hiker, camper or backpacker's companion. It however is not the best choice as a self defense round. Simply, the present matured medical understanding of handgun stopping power has revealed that handgun stopping power is measured by: 1.) adequate penetration, and 2.) by the largest hole made punching through tissue...and that's all. Handgun terminal energy and the temporary wound cavity are not what determines stopping power. Aside from the immediate 'lights-out' result from low percentage cranial-ocular hits, most people succumb to the rapid blood loss made when poking the largest hole through the major, highly vascularized organs. As Massad stated, present hollow-point technology increases that hole size potential for each caliber, yet the .45 will always enjoy the lead, creating larger & more damaging holes than the lesser calibers. Also, the 10mm recoils & blasts more, slowing follow-up shots, invoking the tendency to flinch, and it risks excessive penetration. And should/when a short 'n squatty handgun projectile yaws on impact, it fails to expand. Yet an unexpanded .45 still pokes a bigger hole than an unexpanded 9mm or 10mm slug. Plus, the .45 (230 gr.) slug weighs more which means it delivers greater momentum, it has a higher probability of punching through bone tissue in a straight line wound channel than lighter projectile of a lesser caliber where the projectile is more likely to veer offline. These reasons are why the .40/10mm is not the superior choice to the larger .45. There is a valid argument already made that the smaller calibers afford greater magazine capacity. One should always train for competency at 'emergency reloads', which helps mitigate that shortcoming of the .45 ACP cartridge.
60+ years old. I tried to stockpile, it's the only thing that allows me to keep shooting now. I love 45ACP but i carry a 9mm. Lol !
My Grandfather was a gun guy, he reloaded and had a decent arsenal of guns/ammo, and I just know he must've subscribed to Massad Ayoob back in the day. This was before my time, I was just a kid but Massad Ayoob just reminds me of him, they're so similar. They grew up in the same generation and were police officers and just have a lot of things in common. Now that it's my turn to be into guns I love that Massad is still around teaching us. Makes me feel closer to my Grandfather somehow. He passed away 13-14 years ago but I think he'd appreciate my choice in commentators.
If you can hit your target with nine millimeter but the higher powered .45 causes you to miss, the 9 is more effective.
Absolutely true. Shoot the largest caliber you proficiently can IMO. If you can shoot the .45 , or my personal favorite the 10mm, as well as the 9mm why would you not want the added margin of error the .45 and 10mm offer. Expense for me is not an argument. We are talking potentially about life or death. An extra .25 cents a round is not worrying me. Particularly for those of us who live in Bear and Hog country.
I can think of literally no reason you would miss with a .45. The recoil is not massive.
Why is it I can pop coke cans at 100 yards with .44mag revolvers? The .45 recoil is very mild. Should be able to keep most shots within 6 inches at 100 yards, with a revolver. Certainly, 12 inches. That's with a good .44 mag. The only disadvantage to the .357 and .44 is it takes longer to "double-tap." But one in the heart or lung is enough. With eight-shot .357 revolvers that are quick to load, you have a lot of firepower. I'm not saying people should carry .44 mags in town. But the 1911 or eight-shot .357 is great. And, I no longer carry a 1911. I also carry a Glock, often. Only because it is so light and easy to hide. I load with Critical Defense ammo. But I am actually more accurate with my .45s than with my Glock. The Glock is the least accurate handgun I have. My .44s, the most accurate. About 3 or 4 moa. With good handloads. My .22 Ruger is no more accurate than my .44s.
@@kuuryotwo5153 I think you misunderstood. It’s not they would miss. But training, practice with the .45acp full loads was painful. As it’s better to train with what you carry. The 9mm is MAYBE left effective. But you have many (maybe 3x) as much MORE ammo in the gun.
@1980 Officer with 1911, 5 spare mags @43 rounds, maybe 49 rounds as 8 rd mags were around. Today two spare mags beats that.
So glad I reload my 9mm. My Dillon Press had made it possible for me to keep shooting.
Yep! My friends keep asking me where I'm buying my ammo to keep shooting. My answer is - I'm not. LOL.
Hard to go wrong with a Dillon.
Absolutely. Problem is, if this drought of reloading components keeps going, eventually we too will run out of primers/powder.
@@BretAllen1 Don’t know about your area, but in the last 6-8 weeks I’ve been seeing primers coming back and a little powder as well. Hopefully the supply will be back soon because My stash is getting uncomfortably low.
@@juantoomany7202 where I live powder is available everywhere but primers are gone completely.
Great wisdom advice.
I hope people are listening.
Our culture doesn't listen anymore
Free wisdom from older peers.
Priceless.
I am surprised that 10mm has not grown to be "King of the Hill." It has great stopping power, more than 9mm, and some articles say more than the .45, without the recoil of a .45. Wilson Combat has beautiful 9mm guns in the EDC X9S, EDC X9, and EDC X9L. I wish they would make a 10mm version, EDC X10S, EDC X10, and EDC X10L.
As the owner of a 10mm, I can assure you that the recoil is definitely not less than a .45
I’ve shot plenty of .45, often on the same range trip - big difference
The main reason why 10mm hasn't taken hold is that properly loaded 10mm is rare and expensive. Most 10mm you can buy off the shelf at a gun store (on good days) is loaded to .40 S&W specs.
Then there is the issue that 10mm guns have to be built tougher to handle the cartridge, and are therefore, also more expensive.
I'm going to have to agree with PM Rich. 10mm that isn't loaded to the anemic 10mm FBI specs produces far more recoil than 45 ACP & 45 +P from a similar size and weight gun. Back in the 90s and early 2000s I managed to wreck more than a couple 1911's with full Norma spec 10mm ammo.
40 is the correct answer vs human sized questions
I’m guessing you’ve never shot real 10mm. 45acp out of a metal handgun is softer shooting that a Glock 19 in 9mm. 45acp out of a polymer is equivalent to 9mm out of a hellcat. 40 sw is on par with 45acp out of a polymer gun but is more of a rise than the push of a 45. Real 10mm is like 357 mag out of a scadium jframe. The whole reason 40 was invented was because people couldn’t handle the recoil effectively
The 9×19mm is a a high-pressure cartridge, as it was so a +P did little to boost it, only 9 percent over the peppy original. 9mm+P 38,500 psi. The 45 ACP +p is at 23, 000 psi, a modest increase from the standard 45 ACP pressure of 21,000 psi. Most people want the sub-compact or smaller, and it's snappy. My daughter couldn't hit a 6 inch plate at 7- 10 yards with the 9. Gave her my 45 and bam she could stand the recoil AND hit with it! Yes,I do have arthritis too in my hands and will stay with the 45 ACP 185 gr.
I have found the same with some students. Some prefer the 45acp. and yes, weight of the gun and action is a factor. The recoil felt of the 45acp is different, not simply more.
@@fivex4756 Its a slower impulse compared to 9.
Good discussion. At 68 I am still a 45acp and 1911 holdout. In my mind,, Sgt. Alvin York confirmed the effectiveness of their knock down power against multiple attackers.
Love Alvin York but he had a Browning in the movie I beleive.Defantly a old lugar.Ive got one.Browning invented the lugar and it was chambered in 7.65x25 a very,hot round.Anyways not sure what he used in real life though.Maybe it was a 45.Cant stop God when he is involved.Love that movie though.lol
@@graybailey6015 After he knocked out the machine-gun crew, several German soldiers in a trench uphill from York launched a bayonet attack against him. As the Germans charged him, York drew a M1911 .45 ACP sidearm and began to dispatch his attackers from back to front. York quickly killed or wounded all of the Germans in the bayonet charge and then advanced up the hill to a position where he could look down the German trench.
Massad voice is like from the western action movies..
Can't you imagine that calm, deep voice commanding you to "Please exit your vehicle and place your hands behind your back"?... I'd be thinking "Yes, absolutely, this guy ain't f*cking around" !! ... "I'll stand on my head if you ask me to, Uh Sir, Yes Sir" !! .... Haha!
What’s the best round to have in a gun fight, the round you’re carrying the one you’re good with
At the end of the day absolutely.
Bingo. Work with what ya got. No point worrying about a caliber you don't own, or buying a gun in everything under the sun to see what fits. Get one, get ammo for it, and get good enough to be deadly. Save the caliber wars for later.
@@kuuryotwo5153 Perfect answer
I practice with .45 ACP, and carry 9mm......so if I can shoot rapidly and accurately with .45's, 9mm's are a piece of cake.
@@taraswertelecki3786 Cool that’s a solid plan
I have a M&P chambered in 9mm for my secondary/ back up piece but my Primary EDC is a SR40
Very impressed with Ayoob's articulate nature
Warrior poet
And I'm 73 and keep buying the 10mm and 41 Remington Magnum handguns. Fortunately my joints are still in pretty good shape for an oldster and PTL for that. I do have more trouble with my grip strength and it's increasingly difficult to rack the slide on firearms like my 10mm RIA Rock Ultra FS HC. Having said all of that though my 9mm Luger CZ 75 BD is my favorite handgun and it's always in the console in my truck with 3 magazines full of Winchester RA9TA ammo. Two hundred different varieties of 9mm ammo might actually be an understatement... Good discussion gentlemen.
Love the 41 mag. Wish it would make a comeback!
Age is truly a factor along with shot placement
I love these candid sit down style videos. Keep them coming.
Will do!
This man is truly intelligent. Very happy that I found him on CZcams. Thanks Massad.
Hey Guys,
With the resurgence of the 1911/2011 platform, I’m sure a lot of shooters out there would like a video on when to deactivate the safety during the draw. There’s a few different ways, would love to see Wilson’s/Hackathorn’s/Ayoob’s/Vickers take on this.
Wow! Two all-time greats in one show. How many times I would’ve loved to have been the fly on the wall and listen to either one of you talk about anything you wanted. Designer of one of the best .45 ACP pistols of all time and arguably the greatest police trainer in US history. It was an honor to listen to the both of you!
The answer is simple it's large enough to reliability do the job, small enough to carry a lot of, and the most controllable service cartridge.
Controllability was always the primary factor for me. When I first started shooting pistols (mid- to late-2000s, which were the days that everybody swore by .40 S&W or .45 ACP), I just found that I preferred 9mm pistols because I had an easier time handling their recoil. That meant I felt more confident training with them, i.e., became more effective with them. I also appreciated that 9mm pistols could hold more rounds than their .40-caliber and .45 ACP equivalents.
Always love getting a plethora of knowledge from Massad...
I'm 67 years old and I remember living in the TX, NM areas and I've always kept an admiration for LE. I've met the ass hats and Barney Fifes but overall I know LE personnel are good people doing a mostly thankless job. Back then I watched on the news how multiple LE were killed even though the assailant had been wounded and a couple were even killed with their own weapons by a wounded assailant. I got a 1911 and learned to shoot it pretty well and then in the 90's as projectiles and propellants evolved through science and research the 9 MM came into its own. I now carry a 9 because of weight as well as my grip 'faults'. I still like the 40 too when it's in a capable platform. Thanks for the info and entertainment. I have read articles written by Massad since the late 70's and have gotten and not forgotten his lessons. Thank you Sirs.
Always giving perfectly logical and easy to follow points from the very informative Mr. Ayoob.
Always enjoy these conversations, can't beat the wisdom that you bring to the table. Thanks for sharing
one of the best conversations I have heard in a long time
Massad’s voice is epic!!! Love it!! I enjoy just hearing him speak.
Keep up the videos gentlemen. Always like hearing the perspectives from legends like yourselves.
My thoughts on this episode. I have a lot of 9's. Started using a Sig P226 after getting my FBI Certification as a Pistol/Shotgun Instructor. I do find that I experience less Muzzle Flip with 45. My Springfield 45 has a solid push back than a quick flip up on a 9. I just got my third Wilson 9 a day ago, A EDC X9 to add to my Classic 9 and CQB Elite 9. I am waiting for a Full size CQB Elite in 45. On Ammo I was buying 2-3000 rounds a month a couple of years back and I do Reload, I find it therapeutic. Just didn't stock up enough on Primers. Only have around 15,000. If I had known I would have bought more! Hoarding is a major problem. Things would be fine if people just bought what they were going to use! The Platt Mattix shooting in Miami the Agents were simply out gunned 38 Special 2" wheel guns! When S&W was developing the 40 for the FBI a FBI Rang Officer told me it wasn't going to work out for them as standard issue. The gun was huge. One must remember that there are a lot of Agents that are Female and carry a Snub Nose in their Purse while conducting Bank Audits. Bigger isn't better! You fire a 44 or 357 Magnum and you give serious thought as to firing it again, whereas, a 9 is a comfortable Round. When I teach new Shooters, I start them off with a 22. Let them experience Trigger control and Sight Picture without the thought of a mini explosion goin off in their hand. Then move up to a 9. My comments Bill, Love your Channel!
Good comment Rod 👍. I have fifty good years in firearms and I heard a gentleman today , came in to the LGS and his question was Is it neassary to clean my gun or will it damage the firearm. He had 0 experience with a gun he purchased three years ago. Just kinda crawled up my skin.
@@waynecastleman1363 Maybe he doesn't shoot much? I find cleaning a gun therapeutic just like reloading. Think time. I keep track of the number of rounds that I fire from each gun in a small log book. I clean the gun every 300 rounds. I try to shoot at least 30 rounds a day. That keeps the firing second nature and avoids flinching.. Now, if I could only get primers!!
@@waynecastleman1363 I TAKE IT YOU CAME OUT OF THE WOMB WITH EXTENSIVE FIREARM KNOWLEDGE ? LIGHTEN UP . EVERYBODY STARTS SOMEWHERE SOME PEOPLE NEVER HAD FATHERS GRANDFATHERS UNCLES THAT TAUGHT THEM THE PROTOCOLS .
@@giuseppe_M Yeah I pretty much did , The point is he had it three years , plenty of time to take the gun seriously, I don't like seeing people get hurt unnecessarily. Not knocking him , I did offer to answer his questions, .
@@waynecastleman1363 3 years and he didnt understand the principles of cleaning to that sad degree!? good lord .
Enlightening session. Thanks, Mas and Bill.
Where i live 10mm auto seems to be just as popular as 9mm, if not more. You see very few .40s&w handguns around here anymore. .45acp hasn't changed.
Love hearing words of wisdom from the best, THANKS GUYS.
Excellent content! We need more content more often.
I was in the military when we transitioned from the 1911 to the M9. After years of using .45 , the 9mm was like driving a Cadillac. I still love my 1911 but always reach for my 92FS.
One of my favorite channels. I always seem to learn something. Thank you.
It is really nice to listen to two knowledgeable people. Appreciate all you do. Thank you
I'd listen to these 2 talk about paint drying!!! Living legends!!!
Up until about 1999-2000 the 9mm loads some of us were forced to use in law enforcement were truly awful. Specifically, the first generation 147 grain hollow points zipped through a suspect and rarely, if ever, expanded properly. My agency went to he .357 SIG in response, which was much better. But by 2006-2007, I tested the 124 grain +P HST round, and of course the NYPD round, a 124 grain Gold Dot +P load, and they worked well enough for patrol use. I became more comfortable with the 9mm on duty and off.
Mas is right that the Federal 9BP and 9BP-LE were always reasonably good as defense rounds, but did have some issues with intermediate barriers. The Gold Dot and the HST fixed that and I was comfortable carrying a 9mm on duty to finish my career. The modern 147 grain JHP's are among the best of the 9mm duty loads now. I love my .45's but am not young anymore and shoot them less these days.
New youtuber here. Have read Massad's stuff most of my life. His voice is as mesmerizing as his lessons.
Glad I found this channel!
Welcome aboard!
@@gowilsoncombat selective answering LOL
Thanks for everything y'all do Kalamazoo Michigan
Good enough for the SAS, GIGN, COBRA, GSG9, and sundry
this was, a well presented, easy to follow, and informative video. thank you all.
Always good watching these two guys discuss a topic.
Learning is fun.
I have my preference s... Based on my combat experience. 1911s gave me all the assurances i needed; and slways went bang...
I've always found it particularly amusing that all through those years when people were saying .45 is a manstopper, and 9mm is wimpy, it was the age of the revolver in law enforcement (and most private citizens still preferred revolvers for self-defense or home defense) and the _vast_ majority of those revolvers out there were chambered in .38 special, which is substantially less powerful than the 9mm (averaging almost exactly 100 foot-pounds less out of a 4 inch barrel with the most common defense loads). So for some reason, the 9mm was wimpy and nothing less than a .45 would do, but a revolver cartridge of exactly the same caliber (bullet diameter) as 9mm, but with less velocity and power was ok.
Well you finally explained my own dilemma (.45 vs 9mm) I am getting Old. Life goes on.
Thanks for the video guys . Always a lot of great info .
I am caliber fluid: 380acp, 9mm, .40 and .45.
Great video. Shot placement is king
...This is why I still carry a 1911(GREAT familiarity/track record/experience) only, in 9mm now.
Truth is; even with my severe RA, I can shoot any caliber I choose, if I don't mind quitting early.
9mm just works so much better in this platform I carry while being SOOOO sweet to shoot.
Mas and Bill, joining me in my living room dispensing wisdom and experience. A perfect evening. I love the internet.
Sounds great!
Yes, We "Have the Memories" of Ammo Back in the Day.
Best Wishes! M.H.
Lot of wisdom here. All my family carrying wilson combat guns in 9, only me still has that 45 in a holster
As a 52 year old who grew up reading his articles in gun magazines I have to say how appreciative I am to still receive his knowledge and real life experience.
Excellent presentation gentlemen!
Truly a wealth of knowledge being shared on this channel.
Thank you.
The reason 9mm is the "world standard" is NOT because of the cartridge itself. It is because of people. Most people or average sized people. If the average person was well over 6 feet tall and over 200lbs then 10mm or .45ACP would be the standard. If we were all Andre the Giant sized then Desert Eagle .50AE would maybe be the standard. 9mm is just simply ideal for most people.
I’m 6’2” 240 and I prefer 9mm. It’s a trade off for sure, I choose faster follow up shots and more of them.
Goldie locks zone for sure
I'm 6'8" 250lbs. I like 9mm for capacity. I carry a full size pistol aiwb. I'm a sagetarious. I'm allergic to shellfish and I enjoy listening to Simon and Garfunkel.
@@juantoomany7202 fun fact, if you know how to shoot regardless whether you choose 9mm, .40, or .45, your follow up shots will be limited by your physical ability to reset and squeeze the trigger - not the action of the gun. I've seen people with all 3 calibers shooting quarter second or lower splits accurately, and the maybe ten thousandths of a second they might gain dropping back from .45 or .40 to 9mm would make no effective difference in the final result.
Yeah no. I'm 6' 1" 240 and choose to carry 9mm. Don't need anything bigger.
It’s more about how many extra rounds you can carry. When you’re making your shot placements. More ammo = 9 while less ammo = 45acp. Taking the threat out = shot placement with any round.
A solid hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44 Magnum.
I don’t really care about extra rounds when my Zastava m57A Tokarev carries 13+1 , 7.62 x 25 Tokarev with mag extensions. Meaningless talk about having extra 9mm capacity when there are plenty of rounds that do the job and more with less. It’s called being accurate. More doesn’t mean better.
Yeah because that’s why our the US military Moto is superior firepower- putting rounds down range. The reality is even the best marksman under pressure is not a perfect shot every time.
@@Doc_Roz I would say our ground game isn’t as good as Russia’s now. Our superiority lies in air and sea units. Spetznaz Special Ops Units are ruthless and superior fire fighters than US soldiers. The sheer amount of body armor those guys wear says it all. They have level 4 plates for their crotch region. Russia’s ground game is as based as it gets. Look at their super tank numbers? No one has as many as they do. Couple that with the most advanced mobile surface to air missile defense system in the world. Sure, Soviets played a different game…but Russian special forces units win the superior firefighting aspect on the ground against Our best for sure.
@@timkc1638 not even remotely what I was referring to but, if you would like to get technical, China is on track to have the most superior (by the number of ships before you dissect this comment) Naval Fleet in the world.
So much knowledge and experience in these two gentlemen.
Excellent video!!! Very informative!!!
Thank you. Always a pleasure hearing some "old guy" knowledge bombs.
Pistol = 9mm Subcompact / 40 S&W Fullsize
Revolver = 38 SPL Snub / 357 Magnum 4 Inch
Always informed please don’t stop the videos coming… you all have a depth of knowledge. Enjoy listening, thanks.
I could listen (and learn) to these guys for days and days...