Basic Ally Tier List - Ultimate Deckbuilding Reference - Marvel Champions
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- Timestamps: For those of you who just wanna see the tier list, or skip past the math, etc.
0:00 - Intro
9:42 - Tier List
23:52 - Adding Subjective Allies
This video was largely inspired by the amazing gameplay and deck building of webwarriorfanatic: / @webwarriorfanatic
Link to efficiency video: • The Thermodynamics of ...
I hope this can serve as a useful resource for anyone looking to build decks, and spark some interesting discussion about the allies that didn’t easily fit into this system. Questions like how much is the trait valued on an ally? Should we attribute value to the ally that comes from the events and supports of that archetype? Or should that go toward the events and supports. What are useful global variables? All of these are great questions and I hope this video can serve as a starting point for further discussion.
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“Excelsior!” - Stan Lee - Hry
Awesome video! I pretty much agreed with everything you said but my subjectivity would put several allies in different tiers because of what I value in their effects. It’s really cool to see that a code you made built this list.
Based on your criteria, I would put Marrow/Triage into great options and Legion into situationally good.
I also wanted to comment on Ghost-Spider ally and I think she should be zesty 😂 her ability to tutor an identity specific event is game changing and in key moments that’s more valuable than the draw power of Nick Fury/Moon Girl. I also think she should be evaluated with the Web of Life and Destiny in mind where she draws back a card in addition to the identity specific event. I think Otto is very good and definitely better if he’s evaluated with having a tech upgrade to ready.
Glad to hear you liked it! For Otto he is actually averaged between the situation of drawing a card and the situation of there isn’t any upgrade for him to ready and he still beat nick fury by a significant margin. As for the web warrior stuff I find that difficult to quantify. And as far as web warriors go in this list, it functions better as identifying the order of the web warriors in relation to themselves. I wasn’t sure if it was fair to attribute the effects of the web of life and destiny to the allies or to the support or some sort of mix. Definitely a subjective matter. Since ghost spider is at the top of auto include I see no barrier for her going into zesty. She wasn’t that far off forge and based on the numbers there is a jump from agent 13 to ghost spider. So I definitely agree she could jump up into zesty. She was just so far below nick fury and Otto that I didn’t. I think I’ll calculate triage and marrow at some point soon. Personally they are some of my favorite allies so far. What are your thoughts on how the power level of basic overall?
Can totally see that for Otto!
Iirc in my ally rankings I had more S tier basic allies than the 4 traditional aspects combined 😅😅 Maria Hill and Sunfire are the only aspect allies that are comparable to the likes of Nick Fury, Moon Girl, etc. So I definitely think basic is really strong
Great breakdown! I was coding in Python and Visual Basic 25 years ago but haven't even thought about programming in 15+ years now. I think Beak (Iceman pack) and Triage are Auto Include in X-Men decks. Marrow would be too if she was an X-Men, but X-Force will "turn off" Utopia's ally limit benefit and Uncannny X-Men's cost reduction (but still has good value). I think Legion fits into the Situationally Good tier, with the situation being your hero. I've played him a bunch in Magik for obvious reasons, but otherwise he reminds me of Hulk Ally (unpredictable ability and I always get the one I don't want LOL). I feel like Ghost-Spider is Zesty because she can tutor on defeat: Web Trap, All Systems Go (I'm playing SP//dr Suit right now), etc., and she'll draw you a card with Web of Life and Destiny too.
I think you’re probably correct about the new allies. Ghost spider is a great ally. I wouldn’t argue with her being in zesty. It’s always nice seeing people engage with the videos I made!
Looks and sounds pretty good across the board and well categorized. Love your global variable input option in code. :)
Interesting choice on the "Min", but I'm cool with it and as a counter to "max" to get an average. That I definitely like.
I do very similar calcs generally in my head. Early on I had it at Villain Atk4, but these later days playing nothing but Std2-3 plus expert sometimes put Villain Attack at 5 (4 is still a good baseline). :)
I believe you are calc as if "traits" match where needed...then:
I put Parker as minimum OP (if not busted) {"Zesty" I guess} with the WW Heroes! His statline is basically "yourID+his". He should NOT block! 'First Aid' him!
If your ID has 2Thw, 2Atk, then parker is effectively 4Thw, 4Atk for 4ER and 3HP = 12any for 4ER at worst! Assuming your ID don't have a 3 or 4+ stat and then its even better!
Then *EACH* First Aid (basic for use in ANY aspect) is 2x the combined *Paired-Statlines* (or 2ER for 6-10+). Parker is *bonkers* good if you just heal him (better than replay)!
As you mention, there are some fairly easy ways to deal with his initial "play requirement".
I think there are a few allies worthy of such dedicated healing (3x First Aid in deck for the Ally/s) - Agent13 & Gamora also, who both typically get a resource back per use of 1CD, so the stat use is "free" as such potentially infinite times (2ER to heal 2 = gain 2 uses of recover 1ER +stat).
Not sure how you actually put that into such numbers game, but plz don't block with them...pretty plz!
Glad you liked it and you make some great points! Healing those allies up is a fantastic idea, and I also do that with first aid. It is an underrated card in my opinion. I personally would never block with Peter unless I absolutely had to because of those synergies you mentioned. I didn't evaluate them that way though because I wanted the list to be based on the strength of the ally, and then deckbuilding would create synergies. I could put that into numbers in the code pretty easy. Also if you wanna see the code and mess around with it yourself you can! Join the discord, there is a channel there called math-science-coding, me and pickle talked a lot about it already there, so you could read that if you were interested, and I could change any of the global variables in the code and send you the new plots if you would like as well!
@@DaringLime Totally understand that there are "limits and constraints" needed to actually put a list up. :) I "may" have got a little "Zesty" for him..."may"?
Again, gotta say "great job"! Enjoying the shared passion.
I thought it worth mentioning for all our viewers at home that for some allies there is "blue-skies beyond the bus!" LOL
I know some of coding from a decade or 2 (oh God, It's more than 2!) ago I did some...but am err "rusty" to put it nice. :) I don't know if I have the dedicated focus to get back into actual coding. But would freely offer to be a "sounding board" here.
@@shanepheeney9029 your feedback is appreciated! It’s always nice when people engage deeply with the content I’m making. Would you like to see more content like the basic ally tier list?
You may have undersold Blade. One of the weird features of Blade, is you can sort of "defer" his costs --like he's on a payment plan. He's maybe the best ally to use with Last Stand, or Blaze of Glory. He can be very useful for Voltron decks, where you've got all these upgrades in your hand, and just need somewhere to play them. I love him in leadership decks, where I have cards which exhaust allies to do things, or decks which ready allies ==> Mass Attack, Avengers Assemble, Strength in Numbers, Teamwork. Subjectively, there are a lot of cards which depend upon having allies on the board ==> increasing the subjective value of cheaper allies.
@@underthewronghat.0101 thanks for the feedback. I’ve seen those decks for him. And builds around blade are totally viable. I was doing this list based on the merit of the card on its own. It would be too hard to consider every build possible for every ally. For instance spider-Gwen is that high on the list even without considering her synergy with web of life and destiny. It’s totally possible to build a deck around blade, but if you were to add him into a normal deck then he isn’t very good. Certainly not saying any of these allies are unplayable! Star lord and long shot are quite abysmal though lol
@@DaringLime I get that, but thinking about the economy of Blade, you can almost certainly play Blade + another card. I keep going back to your thought about true cost, and how playing a card prevents you from using it as a resource. Blade doesn't prevent you from doing very much. Oddly, I compare Blade to Nick Fury, who generally costs your whole hand, but then lets you draw three. You can play Blade, and still have three cards in your hand. It's really close in economy.
@@underthewronghat.0101 So if you look at blade you have to spend the physical each time he attacks. And his attack is 2. So if you were to imagine infinite attacks from him, he would approach at 2.0 efficiency, which puts him quite low on the list. His most 'efficient' case is actually just a chump block. Which in this code was valued as 2 true cost to block 4 damage. Putting him right back to a 2.0 efficiency. So without special deck builds around him (i.e. Earth's Mightiest heroes as an example) he tapers out at a 2.0 efficiency which is very low for the list, with the added restriction of not being able to attack with him without discarding him if you don't have the physical. Also worth noting is the physical must be from your hand. Resource generators don't work. There is also the chance that the physical in your hand is the card you would want to play, meaning his ability would be dead again. I think the downsides of his ability are often over looked. In comparing to nick fury, he costs you 5 true cost to play him. But the option to draw 3 is very powerful. I have drawing valued as 1.25 to represent that you can draw into cards you need. His ability is strictly good, giving you the versatility of damage, thwart, or draw, whereas blade has a very restrictive ability, and even in the best case scenarios, is only decently efficient.
@@DaringLime Great analysis! I'm going to pick at the 1.25 value a little. I think Nick's getting a questionable boost by having drawing valued so high. With Nick, odds are actually higher that you have to discard a good card, than they are for drawing a good card (spend 4, but draw 3). With cheaper allies, this is less often the case ==> cheaper allies who have a draw ability should have a higher value draw, because you're choosing to keep 1-3 of the 5-6 cards. Thus, I'd probably have to admit that in a 6-7 card hand, Nick's card draw is a higher value, because you probably kept a card that you really need to play. I guess this affects the minimum, but not the maximum value on allies who draw cards. Worst case, you spend some great cards to play Nick, and get three unplayable "dead" cards.
@@underthewronghat.0101 Ya you may run into that. But with a 1 double resource Nick fury isn't that difficult to play. Also, if you have a hand such that you don't think drawing three is a good option then you can always have him deal 4 damage instead! then attack or thwart for another 2 and then block which is really solid. His versatility is also why he is so high. The 1.25 value is maybe high, but I do think it is more valuable than 1 resource to draw a card. Even if I value it at 1.1, Nick would still be a 3.53 ally, making him in the same exact tier. I see what you are saying about card draw being more valuable on cheaper allies, and I think that is a good point. I just didn't implement it into the code. It would make ironheart a bit better. I really appreciate that you are giving me good feedback!
Awesome video! Fantasy Flight Games should consider work like this for future ideas, might make adding characters from the marvel universe simpler for the developers in keeping it balanced. This game has so much untapped potential.
I appreciate that! I’m glad you enjoyed the video. I had a lot of fun making it
really good discussion here! quantifying effects in this efficiency framework is so helpful when there's so much to think about.
[edit: nvm, different card]
26:08 based on how I read Cannonball's printed ability, I don't think he takes ADDITIONAL consequential, i think he (situationally) takes LESS consequential... "Cannonball takes -1 consequential damage after he attacks and defeats a minion." Emphasis on the negative sign. I take that to mean if his ATK kills the minion AND his health is >1, he just ignores the consequential & stays out. but I dunno. if that's what it means, why would the card introduce this confusing concept of negative consequential damage rather than just using the word "ignore" or saying he heals 1?
Cannonball’s ability is this:
Interrupt: When Cannonball would take any amount of consequential damage, reduce that amount by X, where X is the number of AERIAL cards in your hand.
In general things don’t over count in this game with the exception being overkill.
@@DaringLime ok, huh, I was looking up each card on Marvel CDB. there is an alternate Cannonball ally from Project Wideawake on there that I was looking at.
@@JohnCollinsIsAWizard oh ya! They have special allies for certain scenarios and campaigns.
Hmm. What about Groot and Snowguard who can both block several times --what's the min and max on blocking + retaliate? Seems like those two could end up higher in the math depending how you calculate expected damage or maybe expected sources of damage. Totally subjective, of course, but that's what we're ranking. Groot could block almost any regular minion indefinitely... For my money, Groot is OP. Most games he can block the villain (stage 1) 4+ times. If we expect 3 (avg) damage from the villain, then he blocks at 6, 5, 4, and 3hp --but he could be re-tasked at 3hp to block minions. What's the value of a "block 3 times, and then ignore a minion" card?
So for groot I didn't factor in minions, meaning I wouldn't argue with you if you said you thought he was better. Being able to ignore a minion with him is valuable. Snowguard is valued based on the retaliate version because that was the highest efficiency. I can't remember exactly what I did I would have to look at the code again. It was something like 2 blocks is minimum efficiency and 3 was max. You should join the discord! I have a channel in there where the code is posted if you wanna take a look at it, and we could dig deeper into the allies as well!
Good to see some maths!
You don't define output. I think you are saying one damage=one threat removed= 1. The game tends to charge more for threat removal than damage, about 50% more. I'd be inclined to do the same and say damage is only 2/3 of a point, not that it would change much. *
How are you accounting for card draw? Mentally I knock it off the cost while recognising it's better than just resources but sometimes awkward to meet the up front cost. Obviously this has a bigger impact on efficiency than adding it to the output. It's probably why Otto is so high.
I'm not clear on how you generated the numbers you show so a worked example would be great (i sound like a maths teacher)
Finally, sort of, efficiency isn't the only metric, tempo is also important, as well as imoact/raw output that you mention. I have tried Drax many times and found him pretty useless as I just don't need to chip away at the villain. Same with Hobie, though he's much better. It's also why Rocket is my top pick from that tier. Always 2 thwart or 4 useful damage edges Miles.
* The game also charges 2 for both "cancelling" an activation or readying and I'm with you that 4 is much more like the value for the former while a ready is more like 2 or 1.5 in my money.
Tough while usually the worst attack stopper normally costs way more.
If you join the discord I’ll show you my code and explain more in detail how I arrived at these numbers!
Also I forgot to address the thwart vs attack point. You’re definitely correct that the costs on thwart vs attack events. But it didn’t vary by a consistent amount. And certain scenarios value thwart a lot more than others. I didn’t see a way to get an objective number, and I’m also not sure that the designers did either.
And for drawing I reduce the cards true cost metric by subtracting it.
@@DaringLime discord links appear dead
On your subjective list, did you figure Spider Man Peter Parker for multi-player? In 4-Player, he can thwart for 18, and still block. His minimum in 4-Player is still super high, thwarting for 14 with a block. Also, some would argue that (in general) thwart should have a slightly higher value than attack. What's your take on thwart vs attack value? BTW I totally agree with your thoughts on early vs late game. Many would say that Black Widow's Dance of Death is not an efficient card, but it ends up getting played quite often in the end game.
@@underthewronghat.0101 I’m unsure of what you mean by saying he can thwart for 18 and block. Are you talking about the justice version? I was only comforting the basic ally here, which is the one that readies another web warrior. The justice version is bonkers in multiplayer and one of my favorite allies. The designers definitely do value thwart more than attack. I thought a lot about it. I am unsure what the actual value is, so I didn’t weight them in this analysis. It would have minimal impact on the overall list if I were to change it. But it is something I am looking at for future analysis!
@@DaringLime Ah --just noticed that you're only talking about the basics... For some reason I didn't put two and two together.
@@underthewronghat.0101 people have been asking me to do the same for the aspects. Peter Parker would be really high in a 4 player game
Specific cards. Cannonball is one of those cards designed for the hero it cames with. Angel has enough Arial to make having a couple quite likely, and yoy can choose to only use them when you do (efficiency metric doesn't take account of how long it takes to get a return 😉)
Forge doesn't enable a type of deck, they just grease the operation. In theory - i can't remember the last time I actually played the card I drew. He's Ironheart who runs out of draws eventually 😂.
SP//Dr shines with Web of life and Destiny. Porker is still bad - randomness is not your friend.
Readying web shooter with Otto doesn't gain a resource just tempo. He should shine with Sp//Dr hero. He's one that always looked amazing to me but never paid off.
Gamora can gain 2 or 3 cards to Ghost Spider s 1, I love having a reason not to chump block. Which reminds me as Peter Parker gives you a ready while Gamora gives a card how is she more efficient? (How do you value readies?)
Maybe cards this turn reduce cost, cards later add to output.
I'd name the top couple of tiers never should have been printed!
Is worst case Nick Fury discarded after doing 2 damage? The fact that has positive value pretty much illustrates the point.
My question was going to be how realistic do you think the 50/50 split is. Nick's reliable IME I probably discard him 15-25% of the time so an 80 20 good bad split would be right. Martinex is all over the place ace. This is idle wondering as it's not like you have million to one shots.
Thanks for watching! I agree that cannonball only really works for angel and is a fantastic ally specifically for angel, but I evaluated him considering him with every character that had access to aerial. Unfortunately most characters that have access to aerial have few, or no cards in their hero kit with the aerial trait, making cannonball not a good option.
Forge in a generic case can grab the x-jet. And in different cases he can grab boot camp, or uncanny x-men, or something like that which is what I was considering to “enable a type of deck”. If you were to play him multiple times you would eventually run out of supports. But I didn’t consider that in his evaluation.
I made a mistake on Gamora! Thank you for pointing that out. I forgot that she adds when attacking. So in her max output scenario she would have drawn an additional card making her better. Thank you for noticing that.
As far as the weighting goes, I weighted everything at 50% for this analysis because if I tried to weight each ally it would be my opinions on things. With doing 50% it takes out my biases and I believe it is more fair than if I tried to guess how often each ally would get their max and min.
Also, as for discarding. I had the minimum include a block for every ally except the ones that discard themselves, for instance cannonball. Thank you for the thoughtful response!!
@@DaringLime my tone was a bit blunt -writing on phone but it's all IMO.
Forge can only fetch X Force/X-Men supports which is often only 2 so he runs out pretty fast.
@@jonathanpickles2946 that is true he runs out fast. I just didn’t include that in the analysis because I probably only go through my deck 1 or 2 times max in a game. It’s been so nice getting your feedback! On reddit people were just complaining and not giving anything constructive lol
@@DaringLime I'm an inveterate builder so usually take more passes :); 3-4+ or 10-11 rounds. There's some decks where I'm drawing half my deck every turn by then though.