The membrane of an electrostatic speaker does not have wires embedded as Paul said. As I am aware, it is coated with a conductive material. Martin Logan for sure does that.
What makes a speaker planar is that sound is produced by a large diaphragm that is driven over its entire area, as opposed to a cone type driver with a central voice coil. There are two types of planar speakers: Electrostatic speakers are the original planar speakers. A highly charged diaphragm is suspended between two stator grids driven by high voltage audio to cause it to be deflected back and forth under the influence of the changing electrostatic field. The Magnapan company originally developed the "planar magnetic" speaker (which they called Magnaplaner), which utilizes an array of magnets on the stators and a diaphragm with embedded wires. When audio flows through the wires, it causes the diaphragm to be deflected within the magnetic field of the stators.
The difference between a fixed magnetic field (Magneplanar) and an electrostatic magnetic field relate to the strength of the "pull" on the diaphragm. It would have been interesting to hear how the capacitance of the electrostats alters the load impedance seen by the amplifier in the audible spectrum. I think the subscriber's question was probably aimed at sonic differences more than engineering differences. It would be interesting to also talk about the differences in room interaction between a dipole, open baffle speaker and a box-type speaker, though I don't think that was in the context of the original question.
@@EliasTheHunter Hey! Thanks for asking again. I was looking for your questions so I could write this a couple of weeks back. I love them. Very Clear and open Sound. Transparency is amazing! My experiment driving them with a 50w el34 tube amp was an instant failure. I'm using a Musical Fidelity X-150v3 high current integrated which I'm glad I didn't sell. It drove the MMGs I sent to Magnepan for "repair". They had been sitting in a closet for the last 7 years after one panel sagged. Herb Reichert's review describes the difference between LRS & LS50 very well. They NEED a couple of RELs to get some meat on the bones and that's how I run them. The most interesting thing I noticed is how they do not excite room modes/ reflections like boxes. They're keepers. I'm currently using T legs, raising them 8" and oak frames for them to finish the look....like the speakers in Paul's thumbnail for this video, in fact:-) My friend told me this weekend that when he gets a bigger place he's going to get some LRS. You just have to realize that they are a large pair of headphones, not really suitable for entertaining the whole couch! THANKS 😊
Nice vid Paul! FWIW, I sold Acoustats briefly back in 1981. They did not have a metal mesh... at least not the models I sold. They simply had columns of insulated wires on either side of the diaphragm. This type of design allowed the speakers to be driven to any volume level without the danger of arcing through the diaphragm. Quads had the more common metal mesh design and they were prone to arcing issues.
quads used a plastic material for the perforated stators with a conductive coating. The stators are arranged in a push pull configuration on either side of the diaphragm. The stators have the HV audio signal in push pull configuration on them. The diaphragm has a high voltage charge on it and has such a high resistance that there is insignificant movement of charge across the diaphragm over the time period of the lowest frequency that it reproduces.
I have these really rare polyplanar speakers from the 70s by magitran, and i've not heard a flatter, clearer response from any speaker. They sound really tinny on their own but paired with a sub they sound really amazing
Paul, love the vids and greatly appreciate that you share your experience and wisdom. But it is hard to pay attention with that gorgeous Power Plant sitting behind you.
Good explanation, Paul. I have listened to electrostats (Sanders) at an audio show and they amazed me with their incredible transparency and speed. As you say, their sweet spot is quite narrow, but isn’t high-end listening a rather “loners activity” anyway? Do planars differ on such limitations? You did not get to explain that point. Thanks. I love your videos. Regards from Lima, Peru.
yes and i woiuld love to know what kind of "speaker" is used in those high frequency buzzing multimedia pens because i simply can't find the replacement
Awesome video Paul! Loved the simplicity of your explanation in highlighting the fundamental differences between electrostatic & planar speakers. Thank you sire!
Excellent!!! I never really knew that planar speakers existed. You, as usual, explained things VERY WELL. I am much less ignorant due to your efforts. I really thought that ALL panel looking speakers were electrostatic speakers. Thanks!!! I love your channel.
I have never heard of PS audio before, just landed here half an hour ago,i used to build car amps,you sound like you know what you're talking about, and like i've seen before in the comments here,if you had some *parts* with you as you describe things,it could be....epical. And now ,to google, to see what PS Audio is,i have a feeling it's not --bs--. Thank you sir.
The first way of telling weather the panel speaker is an electrostatic speaker or a planar speaker is weather its powered or not. Electrostatic speakers need to be powered planar speakers are not. Paul explains the technical differences. As for the advantages and disadvantages of each is both are superb at reproducing the natural tones of instruments, with equipment that complements them. They are not colored by a enclosure or box like a conventional cone speaker has because there is no enclosure. Because they generate sound over a large area they do not need to move much to produce sound so they are both very fast ( electrostatic speakers being a bit faster ). Both speakers are exceptional for playing sound at low levels, because they don’t need to move much and they move a lot of air over a wide surface area. So as you can see they both have some great reasons they sound so good. The disadvantages are, yes they are very directional including curved panels on electrostatic speakers. So they all have a one person listening window. They both need to be placed away from walls. Neither sound good next to walls. Since they are both di-pole designs they radiate sound in both directions front and back, ( of course the back wave being out of phase with the front wave ) but you do not want to absorb that rear wave you want it to reflect at the back wall and then back to the listener. This is what creates the great depth of image they can create. So speaker placement is very important. Both designs are very sensitive to the equipment they are being powered with and all the other equipment in front of them. They are very revealing. So high quality equipment is essential. As paul stated “ some “panel speakers require a subwoofer, some are built into electrostatic speakers like martin logan speakers and this is a compromise. Because they use cone speakers ( in a box and are powered ) and the cone speakers is simply not fast enough to keep up with the panel speaker to blend perfectly. Now where Paul is wrong is not all panel speakers need subwoofers and most produce enough bass and very good bass at that. If you ever get a chance to hear the very large Soundlab A1 or Ultimates they produce some of the best bass i have ever heard. Now because they generate bass over such a large area they don’t have bass that gives you that impact of bass cone speakers can it is more laid back. In fact the sound both designs produce is a very laid back sound. It sounds as if the sound starts at the speaker and then goes backward into the rest of the soundstage. Very different sounding then to conventional cone speakers do. Its a sound that some people do not like for this reason. As for advantages of each design: electrostatic speakers are faster, more detailed, more revealing, but must be powered. They can ( if large enough versions ) produce excellent to outstanding bass. I think tonally they can be exceptional if powered and driven with good electronics. Planar speakers are not quite as fast, do not produce quite as much bass energy or detail. They are however easier to drive and not quite as sensitive to the equipment in front of them. They can be powered with more modest priced equipment and sound exceptional. One big advantage to both designs that is not mentioned often is they are a excellent option for those who live in apartments or area where you are concerned of disturbing neighbors or those around you. Because they are so directional more sound is delivered and directed to the listener. They are also both exceptional at resolving detail at very low sound levels. Much much better than conventional cone speakers can. So it is highly recommended to listen and try these designs because they do sound exceptional in many ways, but its not a sound that is for everyone.
That's what I thought too. I don't think Paul made it particularly clear which was actually connected to the power amp. The mesh at the front and back or the diaphragm? My guess is the diaphragm for the planers and the front and back meshes for the electroststs. The root difference between them!
Hey Paul I saw a review of wisdom audio n they also use planar magnetic how efficient is it they say it goes down to 80hz how does that compare to other speakers
Great explanation, but I am going to suggest a couple of details that would become from great to perfect. In that case I expected explanation also about the ribbon speakers. The reason because I am watching the video is because the title is: "What's the difference between ribbons, plants and electroestats" And just the ribbons explanation, the one I am interested in, it's missed. In the other hand, some videos like this, would be really extraordinaries if some pictures and schemes were added for explaining the working, and also real speakers pictures. Paul, you explain so well that usually it isn't necessary the images, but sometimes, like in this case, the images helps the understanding and also helps to know how the speakers are if you don't know these kind of products. In a daily CZcams video, I know it's difficult because is more producing work. But perhaps you can postpone the publication of some of them in order to do this. Obviously, as I wrote at the begging, it's a suggestion or demand from someone that watch your videos, you can do as you prefer. Thank you ft or your generosity sharing your knowledge
Watch all of your videos and they are great. We both come from the hobby in the 70's-80's. I owned a high end audio store (Audiophile Specialists, Oshkosh, Wi). I sold Acoustat speakers (also Infinity), and still use in my main system, a pair of highly modified Acoustat Monitor 4 speakers. Original they used the direct drive amp, but changed them to the interface (which is highly modified). What is the amp behind you (if it is an amp)? Love your products and all your presentations.
www.waywordradio.org/your-sweet-bippy/ www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bippy writingexplained.org/idiom-dictionary/bet-your-sweet-bippy Like you, the people who've tried to fathom the meaning completely ignored the insistence of its creators that it's just a nonsense term. It makes as much sense as 'You bet your ass !' but obviously they couldn't say that on TV in the 60s.
Great stuff Paul, but I'm fairly certain "planars" are generally regarded as 'any' flat, 2 dimensional speaker be they Magnepan, Apogee Acoustics, Quad, Sound Lab, etc.. They also include the hybrids ie Martin Logan, Innersound, Eminent technology, Innersound/Sanders, etc. Regards.
Gayle Sanders started Martin Logan? Wasn’t he a Chicago Bear and featured in that movie “Brian’s Song”, with James Caan? A man of many talents, apparently.
i have S.A.E Mark XII ELECTROSTACTIC 's from the 70's and I was wondering if it would be worth it to bring them back from the dead . There all original and like 80 lbs each I was going to redo the wood on the cabinet's and get them rewired . Just wanted to ask what you think is it worth doing. Thank you for your time .
I wish omni directional speakers like the MBL 101 X-treme were cheaper. I wonder what's the difference of them compared to dynamic, planar or electrostatic types of speaker.
I feel that Electrostatic (ESL) speakers are still carrying over deficiency’s from their initial inception that are no longer present and its to their detriment unfortunately. I am blessed to have a passionate ESL builder in my town who has done away with issues found in the very first ESL such as ‘head in a vice / beaming’, ‘drum head resonance’ and ‘lack of low frequency extension’. Yes they are tall and wide however does it matter when chasing the dream of perfect fidelity? I can stand up from the listening chair and move around the room while still maintaining a stereo image, left or right channel never drops out even in the highest frequency, they produce wonderful low bass so much so they excite the air and in turn his Violins and Cellos that hang on his wall resonating in sympathy with the bass from the ESL’s. The entire panel produces low frequency while a very narrow but full height strip of the panel produces high frequency, negating the dreaded ‘head in a vice’ is very easy with basic understanding of frequency / wave length vs tweeter driver diameter ect. This is why typical tweeter drivers are 2” or smaller, if they were any bigger they would beam, so I’m unsure why other manufacturers of ESL’s hasn’t figured this out and their ESL’s are apparently beaming. Lastly I don’t think the majority of people know what real and natural low frequency extension sounds like, we have been social programmed to love ‘boxy / boomy bass’ and to love to much of it. Walk into any HiFi shop and the first thing they say is ‘Man! Feel that bass?’ They don’t focus on any other attributes of the speaker or sound, just “feel that bass Bro!” Having a sister who has a double major in music and music teaching, who is a conductor and that I regularly attend orchestral presentations to watch her, I am regularly reminded of what natural real low extension sounds like, from organs to the drums or the lowest note of a piano, non of it hits you in the chest with a boxy boom. I make note of this because we, the socially programmed sheep expect masses of chest pumping bass in our speakers digitally engineered ‘POP’ music and when we don’t get it like in ESL’s, then suddenly those speakers have poor extension reproduction. When listening to real music such as Jazz / Orchestral and not radio POP, I have never heard speakers so amazingly transparent and honest to live music as ESL’s.
I am absolutely sold on bipole and dipole radiators but they do require a large room. The Magnepans had a similar ambiance to the Martin Logans but lacked the rich inner detail that comes through a lower mass membrane. I suspect that the magnet screen on the Magnepans has some movement that robs dynamic range because they seem to fall apart at higher volumes. The absolute king of speakers are the ribbon speakers as long as they are direct coupled and your ramp can handle the ultra-low impedance. I am thinking specifically of Apogee and not the Carvers which come in at a much lower price point.
Thom No, it's a "Rowan and Martin's Laugh In" reference from the tv show back in the late 60's early 70's. "You bet your sweet bippy" was a recurring tag line they would often use. Didn't mean anything but it sounded funny and vaguely provocative.
To my ears, electrostatic, planar and ribbon type loudspeakers excell in timbral accuracy when reproducing well-recorded distant gunshot recordings compared to ordinary dynamic magnetic speakers. Can even differentiate between a 5.56 mm X 45 mm assault rifle from ones using 7.62 mm X 51 mm rounds.
I did want to mention something else in reference to a problem for large speaker manufacturers. My brother does installations of sound systems and some for clients in high dollar neighborhoods. Several times he has mentioned going to a home to give an estimate. Husband is all for a great system (he's the one making the all the money) but when wife sees the large speakers she just can't have that messing up the decor and shoots it down. There was another local company that does installs that my brother talked to and they said they first ask the client if an interior decorator is involved. If the answer is yes, they drop the client because in the end, the interior decorator will always convince the wife the speakers will ruin the appearance of the room.
I have the Logan monoliths, Logan centre, Logan sub, and two Sequels for the back. The monoliths are powered by two Mcintosh 501 mono blocks and the centre and back are powered by a monster power 200w x 3 amp.My pre-amp is a Krell showcase processor, a Krell showcase DVD player. I call it my wall of sound..! I place my seat dead centre of the room and I could care less where anyone else sits. I've never had any complaints. I've owned a lot of speakers and the Logans deliver 10 x's better then any I've ever owned. The sound comes out of the back as well as the front of all my speakers. My listening room is over the garage consisting of 2 -12' wide dormers cantered including the main span = 2-20' in a 30'x26' room shaped like a cross with all cathedral ceilings. 3/4" oak hardwood floor over 3/4" OSB sub-floor, I built it in 2000
The long gone double pair of the KLH-9 electrostatic speaker systems, when driven especially by a Futterman type OTL amplifier had not only good quantity of deep bass, but with preservation of bass detail of a bowed double string bass that almost no other speaker system could. In particular, I then named my then test LP of a Ditter von Ditterdorf double bass concerto my "Eine Kleine Klipsh horm speaker system killer"? Most other speaker systems render double bass timbre very much like a bowed Hammond ball park organ like when playing a seventh inning stretch favorite, "The Mexican Hat Dance". I wish that Sound and Vision, and the Absolute sound would use the classical double bass as a test case for detail rendering. Then, one day, Gary Karr will be become more willing to do recordings.
Paul,I think you maybe confusing the electrostatic diaphragm construction with Magnaplanar type construction.Electrostatic diaphragms as far as I know only use a conductive plastic material and not any metal wires.
+NDFOOTBALL and 60zeller What are you guys talking about? He may be erroneous on his description of these types of speakers(I'm not saying he is as I really don't know), but he never said anything in terms of selling anything. And really, if you don't like his videos, think he's just hawking his stuff, why do you watch? If you think you can do better, you can make your own videos, and open your own audio shop while you're at it.
+BRATWURST1 So let me make sure I have this right. First, you are saying that electrostatic speakers and magneplanars are different, that is that they are constructed differently, correct? If that's the case, what would you say is the distinction between the two construction methods, how would you explain how the two are made? Could you give examples of each type? Am I right in thinking Martin Logan is an electrostatic speaker while Magnepan is a magneplanar? And finally, which speaker type would you say is better, and why?
@@mydogskips2 - Depends on the purpose of the system set up. Clearly a electrostatic speaker set up in a car or large space like a kitchen/living space would be a complete waste of time and money. But if you want to have a dedicated room for a home theater system/music listening room (especially music with full dynamic frequency range) then electrostatic speakers like martin logan are exceptional for that. If you are looking for a speaker system to spread throughout the house then dynamic is an obvious choice. And dynamic speakers can be exceptional as well but it all comes down to cost.
I'm not the first to bring this up here, but what about the Heil air motion transformer, as popularized first by ESS and more recently by ADAM Audio? Could you explain and compare that to planar magnetic and conventional ribbon drivers?
The old Quad ESL63s tried to solve the listening position problem by having the membrane divided into multiple rings, with delay lines from the center outwards if I remember it correctly. Still planar, they’re flat, they overcame the inherent issues of one big moving plane. Much better high frequency dispersion in the room, and a better LF-HF balance. Best of both worlds? They’re stunningly beautiful, though not for every musical genre. Classical music, in particular chamber music, is hard to beat with other speakers.
The Heil Amt was not mentioned and is the only tweeter that "squeeze's" the air instead of "push it." My ears tell me that not even ribbons or electrostatics can keep up past 8 to 10k hz. They are super fast with virtually no distortion and actually create an "audio hologram" that make them sound "live". But after playing with these for over 40 years I have found that you must have a harmonic in the bass section just like any stringed instrument has and this harmonic will help carry the upper frequencies were this tweeter lives and then the sound is magic. They also have a very wide sound stage which allows a very wide sweet spot....like the whole couch instead of a single chair. Dr. Oskar Heil invented it back in 1974. Thanks for the info. Paul.
Heil R basically 'folded ribbons'. The sound is like ribbon (jagged & harsh) but 'fast'. Best sounding tweeter R treated silk 'Linaeum' type = very natural, with none of the 'spitty' character of domes or harshness of other alternatives =)
Pretty much every horn driver 'squeezes' the air, & they all sound like $hit. The only horns that R semi-passable R the circular smooth types, which R not nearly as jaggy nails-on-blackboard hash like every other horn shape. Also, it's INSANE 2 use N E horns because nobody really does big bass horns so may as well use direct radiators up top. Power is CHEAP, & a line array with even super-weak tube gear will go loud as frok. The more & bigger the drivers U got, the MORE efficient a speaker system gets.
That's B.S.. Soundstatge is mostly in the highs, & progressively less as U go down in frequency. The directionality of highs helps us localize things, like bats with 'echolocation'. That's part of Y free-standing direct-radiator tweeters give speakers better 'imaging' =)
Gave it a shout out for you. I have been playing with the Heil Amt for over 40 years and I believe it is the best upper driver ever invented. I have 9 functional sets in my sound room both orig. and custom. But there must be a Harmonic in the bass section just like any stringed instrument has. Harmonics go up in the frequency range which is where the Heil Amt lives and when they mix together is when the magic happens. All of the orig. ESS Heil Amt speakers that I have ever purchased has the bass cabinet over stuffed allowing very little harmonics. So I make a hollow in the middle of the cabinet and then I play with the insulation lining the walls of the cab. until a harmonic is revealed that I can HUM too...and then it's magic!!
I am currently using a dipole AMT from Mundorf in my DIY active dipole speakers . They are not cheap (like anything else from Mundorf) but they have incredible power handling and extreme low distortion . They also are capable to maintain a perfect figure of 8 dipole dispersion pattern in the horizontal plane right up to 8 Khz . Best tweeter for this application , hands down !
I don’t think I’ve ever seen an electrostatic with wires on the diaphragm. That would be really heavy. Pretty sure they all just have an electrically conductive coating painted on the surface of the panel. Also, copper is really too heavy to use on a planar magnetic speaker. All that I’m aware of, Including Magneplanar, use aluminum.
hey paul check out joppe peelen's youtube channel, he makes planars, rubanoids, electrostats and ribbonspeakers at home, some of them are made almost from chopsticks and sound incredible
I remenber in my jonger years (1980) you could buy a electrostatic speaker called QUAD, can you stil buy them does anyone know them or stil have them??
I'm no expert but the company does still exist, I see their stuff in e-mails I get from Music Direct. I do have a set of old Stax electrostatic headphones, I understand they're still in production but from what I've seen not officially sold in the US anymore and now pretty expensive compared to what I paid! I do love mine, not the most bass and can't play as loud as others but the detail is incredible.
How does a single membrane produce both a base and a high frequency signal without each of those two signals affecting the other on that single membrane
It doesn't. It will be affected. As the membrane moves slowly for the bass and quickly for the higher frequencies it causes a type of distortion called Dopler. That's one of the reasons speakers have multiple drivers like a tweeter, midrange, and woofer.
No wires on the mylar of an electrostatic. The panels are coated with something that allows the panel to hold the static charge. The speakers are plugged in to maintain the electrostatic charge. The wires run in the grid in front of and behind the panel, that is what the amplifier, through step up transformers, powers. Mine (SoundLab) have a three sided faceted tweeter and two angled woofer panels to mitigate the "head in a vise" imaging.
John LeBeau I couldn’t agree more with you John. Paul’s explanation with mediocre at best and not accurate with today’s improvements with Electrostatic speakers.
Electrostatic speakers can also use metallized film or graphite impregnated film. Mine are the latter. I have over taxed them and had to replace the film.
@Harry Fishnuts > Glad to read your post. It confirms something I suspected many years ago about Jason Bloom. I first subscribed to Stereophile back in the early 90s. It was in that mag that I first read about Apogee speakers. Most impressive was their B rating of the Stages. This speaker at about $2,500 was the least expensive of the Apogee family and was holding its own with speakers costing $25K or more). Every great review (including other mags) I read, Bloom was there to set up the speakers and when Bloom wasn't there the review was more problematical. It was the only speaker that I can remember where the rep was there almost all the time for setup. In fact Apogee and Bloom was almost synonymous. He was a kind of rock star back then. Fast forward to the late 90s. A high end dealer was doing a demonstration of several high end products including the Stages. I worked at Texas Instruments which was just across the street from the dealer in far north Dallas so I attended. When I first walked into the building (part of a strip mall) there was this guy with a hand load of CDs just ahead of me. He asked me if I knew where the demos were taking place. I glanced to my right and I immediately recognized the Stages. "There." After hearing about these speakers for about a decade I was finally going to get to hear them for the first time. They looked quite impressive in that dim lit ambient room; almost like something you would see in a cathedral. Should we take our shoes off in their presence? Each speaker was connected to a big Krell. As we sat down on the front row of chairs I noticed there was this guy constantly pacing near the speakers. He was dressed in all black; black silk pants, and a black silk shirt. In the dim light his hair looked liked it was jet black and curly. The black silk shirt had billowy sleeves like the ones you see on flying trapeze artists, or a juggler you would see on the old Ed Sullivan show, or some would say he looked like a circus gypsy, or even a pimp! The guy running the high end shop came in and introduced the man that was doing all the pacing. "This is Jason Bloom of Apogee Acoustics..." So THIS is the famous Jason Bloom I said to myself, thinking he would look rather nerdy and less of a showman. He talked briefly about the speakers then he played a CD. I think the track was "Moments in Love" by Art of Noise. The track ended and while he was setting up to play another CD, the guy next to me said, "wow that really sounded great I wish I could own a pair." He was talking to ME. I said to him exactly these words, "yeah and maybe he can help you setting them up." Bloom stopped fiddling with the CD. He had heard my response and angrily looked at me and snapped. He said basically he didn't need to be there and that any idiot could set them up. He didn't actually call me an idiot though. He wanted to know why did I think they would be difficult to set up. What I wanted to say, but didn't respond at all was that "he was always there to set up the speakers for reviewers." If reviewers needed help what about the layman? Since I didn't respond at all it seemed to piss him off even more. I was thinking that if I said ANYTHING at all this dude was going to pull out a knife hidden within those big shirt sleeves and come at me! He then announced that the room that we were in was not conducive to serious listening and so he ended right then and there any further demonstrations of the Stages. Too bad. All I said was "yeah and maybe he can help you setting them up!" Seems like a benign and innocuous statement. Never thought that statement would create such a furor. Since I didn't understand his negative reaction I became a bit cynical about him later. I began to think he was at many private Apogee product reviews (non conventions and shows) like at The Absolute Sound, Stereophile etc. to bully the reviewer (ha ha)! He was going to be there and MAKE SURE his product got a damn good review. NOW, he was looking more like a hitman! Even the slightest hint, like difficulty in setup meant (to him I guess) a decrease in sales. I really didn't know what his problem was. DUDE, I WAS JOKING! I wasn't even talking to him anyway. In that very room the speakers sounded great. All there were impressed, so some side remark I made should not have generated such an over-the-top and grand show stopping negative reaction from the great and wonderful showman Jason Bloom----the powerful Wizard of Apogee. A few years later I read that he had died after an accident at home. I don't remember if his father in law/designer Leo Spiegel was still alive at that time. Apogee at the time was under some stress and so with Bloom's death Apogee was probably doomed. Well wishers of Bloom were far and wide all attesting to how charming and affable he was. I'm sure he must have been, all these people knew him and worked with him for years. I didn't, my experience with him was only a few minutes so my thoughts don't really count, BUT I do know my impressions with him on a limited basis were not favorable and I didn't like him that much. That certainly doesn't mean his company didn't make good products, however. I figure most people who bought Apogee products (in those days) were audiophiles and would eventually get the setup right if the room was okay. These days whenever I see a mention of Apogee speakers (usually about a fix-em up guy in Australia) I think about my one-sided "encounter" with Bloom and wonder if he really was that super sensitive about set up. Your post confirmed what I suspected all along. If you were at that demo some years ago and you said what you have posted here I fear you would not be alive today!
Electrostatics have come a LONG way. If you get the chance, try the latest Quads with an Accuphase E450 (or whatever has taken over from that one). No head in a vice, masses of base and staggering clarity. The dealer that let me try them with my Accuphase was blown away and he didn't deal with Accuphase. Honestly, give it a try if you get a chance. The problem? Wives think they are too big. Huh. So I ended up with Focal Utopia Diablos. Easier to live with but only the Quads have that extra transparency that nothing else can offer.
That is the opposite of what people tell me when they hear my Martin Logan Vistas. More listening needed on your end! I live in the Springs, so when you are bored come by! ;)
The way you talk is like a snowball rolling down a mountain, so slow at the beginning, kinda lightly bouncing around and then to focus a little more and gain momentum. About 3/4 the way you are on topic and a good pace then bing, bang, boom all done.🤣 just like my dad!
Re: no magnets, howabout PIEZO! Haha. Actually can sound decent if freq. response is flat, usually isn't close. Underexplored tech due to crude examples?
Something tells me you have never heard Acoustat X's. There is nothing like electrostatic bass except for the real thing. Come here and tell me my Acoustats lack bass. In my opinion electrostatics are the best practical home speaker.
I have a vinyl record thats more dynamic than any CD I've ever heard and its called Flamenco Fever. Its recorded direct to disc. There is a dancer who stomps on a stage making great shock waves of bass. Sounds exciting on my electrostatics. The record now sells for hundreds if not over $1000. I bought mine new for $17.
The membrane of an electrostatic speaker does not have wires embedded as Paul said. As I am aware, it is coated with a conductive material. Martin Logan for sure does that.
What makes a speaker planar is that sound is produced by a large diaphragm that is driven over its entire area, as opposed to a cone type driver with a central voice coil. There are two types of planar speakers:
Electrostatic speakers are the original planar speakers. A highly charged diaphragm is suspended between two stator grids driven by high voltage audio to cause it to be deflected back and forth under the influence of the changing electrostatic field.
The Magnapan company originally developed the "planar magnetic" speaker (which they called Magnaplaner), which utilizes an array of magnets on the stators and a diaphragm with embedded wires. When audio flows through the wires, it causes the diaphragm to be deflected within the magnetic field of the stators.
Imagine how amazing this video would be with illustrations and examples of each!
I learn so much from this channel. Thanks for sharing your audio passion.
Love your videos but with 10% more pictures of what you chat about
I know!!!!! So amazing! Found out my gf was cheating but it’s kinda hot ngl 😜😜🤪
@Zyaire Colton why?
Great explanation Paul, love your vids. Short, informative, and laid back. Fits my style.
Thank you for the explanation, and I will be looking forward to your post on ribbons.
The difference between a fixed magnetic field (Magneplanar) and an electrostatic magnetic field relate to the strength of the "pull" on the diaphragm. It would have been interesting to hear how the capacitance of the electrostats alters the load impedance seen by the amplifier in the audible spectrum. I think the subscriber's question was probably aimed at sonic differences more than engineering differences. It would be interesting to also talk about the differences in room interaction between a dipole, open baffle speaker and a box-type speaker, though I don't think that was in the context of the original question.
I was going to give all the credit to the low-mass membrane
Explained so simply even I understood it. Love your work.
Thanks! Cleared some stuff up for me :D
Thumbs up! Hats off, sir. Keep up with your great work
My LRS just delivered by FedEx on a Sunday morning. Crazy!
Well it should be a fun afternoon....
What are your impressions? How are you driving them?
@@EliasTheHunter
Hey! Thanks for asking again. I was looking for your questions so I could write this a couple of weeks back.
I love them.
Very Clear and open Sound.
Transparency is amazing!
My experiment driving them with a 50w el34 tube amp was an instant failure.
I'm using a Musical Fidelity X-150v3 high current integrated which I'm glad I didn't sell. It drove the MMGs I sent to Magnepan for "repair". They had been sitting in a closet for the last 7 years after one panel sagged.
Herb Reichert's review describes the difference between LRS & LS50 very well.
They NEED a couple of RELs to get some meat on the bones and that's how I run them.
The most interesting thing I noticed is how they do not excite room modes/ reflections like boxes.
They're keepers.
I'm currently using T legs, raising them 8" and oak frames for them to finish the look....like the speakers in Paul's thumbnail for this video, in fact:-)
My friend told me this weekend that when he gets a bigger place he's going to get some LRS.
You just have to realize that they are a large pair of headphones, not really suitable for entertaining the whole couch!
THANKS 😊
Would like to hear you opinion on the great Heil AMT and Oskar heil. Did you ever have any interactions with him ?
Very informative lecture on different types of loudspeaker.
Nice vid Paul! FWIW, I sold Acoustats briefly back in 1981. They did not have a metal mesh... at least not the models I sold. They simply had columns of insulated wires on either side of the diaphragm. This type of design allowed the speakers to be driven to any volume level without the danger of arcing through the diaphragm. Quads had the more common metal mesh design and they were prone to arcing issues.
quads used a plastic material for the perforated stators with a conductive coating. The stators are arranged in a push pull configuration on either side of the diaphragm. The stators have the HV audio signal in push pull configuration on them. The diaphragm has a high voltage charge on it and has such a high resistance that there is insignificant movement of charge across the diaphragm over the time period of the lowest frequency that it reproduces.
Knowledge is the way to go. Thanks.
Great explanation, Paul!
How about ribbons?
I have these really rare polyplanar speakers from the 70s by magitran, and i've not heard a flatter, clearer response from any speaker. They sound really tinny on their own but paired with a sub they sound really amazing
I like your presentation. You are always like a scientist who speaks in layman language.
All I know is I love my Martin Logan XLS’s. I understand what you are saying but for 3 grand in Australia, they are the speaker that satisfies me.
Paul, love the vids and greatly appreciate that you share your experience and wisdom. But it is hard to pay attention with that gorgeous Power Plant sitting behind you.
Good explanation, Paul. I have listened to electrostats (Sanders) at an audio show and they amazed me with their incredible transparency and speed. As you say, their sweet spot is quite narrow, but isn’t high-end listening a rather “loners activity” anyway?
Do planars differ on such limitations? You did not get to explain that point. Thanks. I love your videos. Regards from Lima, Peru.
yes and i woiuld love to know what kind of "speaker" is used in those high frequency buzzing multimedia pens because i simply can't find the replacement
I was hoping to hear about ribbon speakers. Are they the same as plain planar?
Awesome video Paul! Loved the simplicity of your explanation in highlighting the fundamental differences between electrostatic & planar speakers.
Thank you sire!
Excellent!!! I never really knew that planar speakers existed. You, as usual, explained things VERY WELL. I am much less ignorant due to your efforts. I really thought that ALL panel looking speakers were electrostatic speakers. Thanks!!! I love your channel.
I have never heard of PS audio before, just landed here half an hour ago,i used to build car amps,you sound like you know what you're talking about, and like i've seen before in the comments here,if you had some *parts* with you as you describe things,it could be....epical. And now ,to google, to see what PS Audio is,i have a feeling it's not --bs--. Thank you sir.
The first way of telling weather the panel speaker is an electrostatic speaker or a planar speaker is weather its powered or not. Electrostatic speakers need to be powered planar speakers are not. Paul explains the technical differences. As for the advantages and disadvantages of each is both are superb at reproducing the natural tones of instruments, with equipment that complements them. They are not colored by a enclosure or box like a conventional cone speaker has because there is no enclosure. Because they generate sound over a large area they do not need to move much to produce sound so they are both very fast ( electrostatic speakers being a bit faster ). Both speakers are exceptional for playing sound at low levels, because they don’t need to move much and they move a lot of air over a wide surface area. So as you can see they both have some great reasons they sound so good.
The disadvantages are, yes they are very directional including curved panels on electrostatic speakers. So they all have a one person listening window. They both need to be placed away from walls. Neither sound good next to walls. Since they are both di-pole designs they radiate sound in both directions front and back, ( of course the back wave being out of phase with the front wave ) but you do not want to absorb that rear wave you want it to reflect at the back wall and then back to the listener. This is what creates the great depth of image they can create. So speaker placement is very important. Both designs are very sensitive to the equipment they are being powered with and all the other equipment in front of them. They are very revealing. So high quality equipment is essential. As paul stated “ some “panel speakers require a subwoofer, some are built into electrostatic speakers like martin logan speakers and this is a compromise. Because they use cone speakers ( in a box and are powered ) and the cone speakers is simply not fast enough to keep up with the panel speaker to blend perfectly. Now where Paul is wrong is not all panel speakers need subwoofers and most produce enough bass and very good bass at that. If you ever get a chance to hear the very large Soundlab A1 or Ultimates they produce some of the best bass i have ever heard. Now because they generate bass over such a large area they don’t have bass that gives you that impact of bass cone speakers can it is more laid back. In fact the sound both designs produce is a very laid back sound. It sounds as if the sound starts at the speaker and then goes backward into the rest of the soundstage. Very different sounding then to conventional cone speakers do. Its a sound that some people do not like for this reason.
As for advantages of each design: electrostatic speakers are faster, more detailed, more revealing, but must be powered. They can ( if large enough versions ) produce excellent to outstanding bass. I think tonally they can be exceptional if powered and driven with good electronics.
Planar speakers are not quite as fast, do not produce quite as much bass energy or detail. They are however easier to drive and not quite as sensitive to the equipment in front of them. They can be powered with more modest priced equipment and sound exceptional.
One big advantage to both designs that is not mentioned often is they are a excellent option for those who live in apartments or area where you are concerned of disturbing neighbors or those around you. Because they are so directional more sound is delivered and directed to the listener. They are also both exceptional at resolving detail at very low sound levels. Much much better than conventional cone speakers can.
So it is highly recommended to listen and try these designs because they do sound exceptional in many ways, but its not a sound that is for everyone.
Really appreciate your explanations. One minor correction - most electrostats use a conductive coating on the mylar instead of wires.
That's what I thought too. I don't think Paul made it particularly clear which was actually connected to the power amp. The mesh at the front and back or the diaphragm? My guess is the diaphragm for the planers and the front and back meshes for the electroststs. The root difference between them!
Hey Paul I saw a review of wisdom audio n they also use planar magnetic how efficient is it they say it goes down to 80hz how does that compare to other speakers
Has a dome or sphere design been accomplished for the mylar or other film?
Do you need to use flat cable with electro stats? If so, why?
Thank's Paul.
Great explanation, but I am going to suggest a couple of details that would become from great to perfect.
In that case I expected explanation also about the ribbon speakers. The reason because I am watching the video is because the title is: "What's the difference between ribbons, plants and electroestats"
And just the ribbons explanation, the one I am interested in, it's missed.
In the other hand, some videos like this, would be really extraordinaries if some pictures and schemes were added for explaining the working, and also real speakers pictures.
Paul, you explain so well that usually it isn't necessary the images, but sometimes, like in this case, the images helps the understanding and also helps to know how the speakers are if you don't know these kind of products.
In a daily CZcams video, I know it's difficult because is more producing work.
But perhaps you can postpone the publication of some of them in order to do this.
Obviously, as I wrote at the begging, it's a suggestion or demand from someone that watch your videos, you can do as you prefer.
Thank you ft or your generosity sharing your knowledge
Watch all of your videos and they are great. We both come from the hobby in the 70's-80's. I owned a high end audio store (Audiophile Specialists, Oshkosh, Wi). I sold Acoustat speakers (also Infinity), and still use in my main system, a pair of highly modified Acoustat Monitor 4 speakers. Original they used the direct drive amp, but changed them to the interface (which is highly modified). What is the amp behind you (if it is an amp)? Love your products and all your presentations.
Believe it's a power conditioner. Just saw an ad for it in Hi-Fi News yesterday.
"bippy" have not heard that term since laugh in rerun in the early 70's :-)
The best I can guess is that "bippy" is short for "bepis", which would then mean "You bet your dick."
www.waywordradio.org/your-sweet-bippy/
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bippy
writingexplained.org/idiom-dictionary/bet-your-sweet-bippy
Like you, the people who've tried to fathom the meaning completely ignored the insistence of its creators that it's just a nonsense term. It makes as much sense as 'You bet your ass !' but obviously they couldn't say that on TV in the 60s.
@@Acoustic_Theory yes, benis.
@@Acoustic_Theory Are you seriously trying to retcon a recent meme term ("bepis") into an old term like "bippy"?
@@DasAntiNaziBroetchen I don't usually feed trolls, but no. You are mistaken.
Great stuff Paul, but I'm fairly certain "planars" are generally regarded as 'any' flat, 2
dimensional speaker be they Magnepan, Apogee Acoustics, Quad, Sound Lab,
etc.. They also include the hybrids ie Martin Logan, Innersound, Eminent technology, Innersound/Sanders, etc. Regards.
Thank you Paul. We have a 3.6R Mag
What about Mangepan LRS ? Regards
I always enjoy listening to Paul McGowan
Gayle Sanders started Martin Logan? Wasn’t he a Chicago Bear and featured in that movie “Brian’s Song”, with James Caan? A man of many talents, apparently.
i have S.A.E Mark XII ELECTROSTACTIC 's from the 70's and I was wondering if it would be worth it to bring them back from the dead . There all original and like 80 lbs each I was going to redo the wood on the cabinet's and get them rewired . Just wanted to ask what you think is it worth doing. Thank you for your time .
I wish omni directional speakers like the MBL 101 X-treme were cheaper. I wonder what's the difference of them compared to dynamic, planar or electrostatic types of speaker.
Speaking of plasma, I miss plasma TVs. I still got my old Samsung 720p plasma and there's a lot of things it does better than my 4k tv.
buy LG Oled
Oof - you've got quite an on-air voice. Worked in broadcast behind the mic at all?
I feel that Electrostatic (ESL) speakers are still carrying over deficiency’s from their initial inception that are no longer present and its to their detriment unfortunately. I am blessed to have a passionate ESL builder in my town who has done away with issues found in the very first ESL such as ‘head in a vice / beaming’, ‘drum head resonance’ and ‘lack of low frequency extension’. Yes they are tall and wide however does it matter when chasing the dream of perfect fidelity? I can stand up from the listening chair and move around the room while still maintaining a stereo image, left or right channel never drops out even in the highest frequency, they produce wonderful low bass so much so they excite the air and in turn his Violins and Cellos that hang on his wall resonating in sympathy with the bass from the ESL’s. The entire panel produces low frequency while a very narrow but full height strip of the panel produces high frequency, negating the dreaded ‘head in a vice’ is very easy with basic understanding of frequency / wave length vs tweeter driver diameter ect. This is why typical tweeter drivers are 2” or smaller, if they were any bigger they would beam, so I’m unsure why other manufacturers of ESL’s hasn’t figured this out and their ESL’s are apparently beaming. Lastly I don’t think the majority of people know what real and natural low frequency extension sounds like, we have been social programmed to love ‘boxy / boomy bass’ and to love to much of it. Walk into any HiFi shop and the first thing they say is ‘Man! Feel that bass?’ They don’t focus on any other attributes of the speaker or sound, just “feel that bass Bro!” Having a sister who has a double major in music and music teaching, who is a conductor and that I regularly attend orchestral presentations to watch her, I am regularly reminded of what natural real low extension sounds like, from organs to the drums or the lowest note of a piano, non of it hits you in the chest with a boxy boom. I make note of this because we, the socially programmed sheep expect masses of chest pumping bass in our speakers digitally engineered ‘POP’ music and when we don’t get it like in ESL’s, then suddenly those speakers have poor extension reproduction. When listening to real music such as Jazz / Orchestral and not radio POP, I have never heard speakers so amazingly transparent and honest to live music as ESL’s.
I am absolutely sold on bipole and dipole radiators but they do require a large room. The Magnepans had a similar ambiance to the Martin Logans but lacked the rich inner detail that comes through a lower mass membrane. I suspect that the magnet screen on the Magnepans has some movement that robs dynamic range because they seem to fall apart at higher volumes.
The absolute king of speakers are the ribbon speakers as long as they are direct coupled and your ramp can handle the ultra-low impedance. I am thinking specifically of Apogee and not the Carvers which come in at a much lower price point.
Had a Pair of some Chinese or Japanese ones 30 Years back. In the days of Vinyl. I must say the quality is / was exceptional. You will only know when?
Planar means the coil is in a plane, rather than a circle, just needed that to complete your great explanation Paul.
I did not know that. Thank you!
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio I am just taking the literal meaning of "planar", I am no authority!
Does the step up transformer in an electrostat mean that DC offsets will disappear? Can they be classified as "transformer coupled?"
Is a “sweet bippy” a speaker sound or a body part? ; )
I know this is 7 months old, but its an ed edd and eddy reference
Thom No, it's a "Rowan and Martin's Laugh In" reference from the tv show back in the late 60's early 70's. "You bet your sweet bippy" was a recurring tag line they would often use. Didn't mean anything but it sounded funny and vaguely provocative.
I know they got it from somewhere but i heard it from ed
To my ears, electrostatic, planar and ribbon type loudspeakers excell in timbral accuracy when reproducing well-recorded distant gunshot recordings compared to ordinary dynamic magnetic speakers. Can even differentiate between a 5.56 mm X 45 mm assault rifle from ones using 7.62 mm X 51 mm rounds.
Wouldn't that be more the foley effect in the recording?
I did want to mention something else in reference to a problem for large speaker manufacturers. My brother does installations of sound systems and some for clients in high dollar neighborhoods. Several times he has mentioned going to a home to give an estimate. Husband is all for a great system (he's the one making the all the money) but when wife sees the large speakers she just can't have that messing up the decor and shoots it down.
There was another local company that does installs that my brother talked to and they said they first ask the client if an interior decorator is involved. If the answer is yes, they drop the client because in the end, the interior decorator will always convince the wife the speakers will ruin the appearance of the room.
I have the Logan monoliths, Logan centre, Logan sub, and two Sequels for the back. The monoliths are powered by two Mcintosh 501 mono blocks and the centre and back are powered by a monster power 200w x 3 amp.My pre-amp is a Krell showcase processor, a Krell showcase DVD player. I call it my wall of sound..! I place my seat dead centre of the room and I could care less where anyone else sits. I've never had any complaints. I've owned a lot of speakers and the Logans deliver 10 x's better then any I've ever owned. The sound comes out of the back as well as the front of all my speakers. My listening room is over the garage consisting of 2 -12' wide dormers cantered including the main span = 2-20' in a 30'x26' room shaped like a cross with all cathedral ceilings. 3/4" oak hardwood floor over 3/4" OSB sub-floor, I built it in 2000
The long gone double pair of the KLH-9 electrostatic speaker systems, when driven especially by a Futterman type OTL amplifier had not only good quantity of deep bass, but with preservation of bass detail of a bowed double string bass that almost no other speaker system could. In particular, I then named my then test LP of a Ditter von Ditterdorf double bass concerto my "Eine Kleine Klipsh horm speaker system killer"? Most other speaker systems render double bass timbre very much like a bowed Hammond ball park organ like when playing a seventh inning stretch favorite, "The Mexican Hat Dance". I wish that Sound and Vision, and the Absolute sound would use the classical double bass as a test case for detail rendering. Then, one day, Gary Karr will be become more willing to do recordings.
Paul,I think you maybe confusing the electrostatic diaphragm construction with Magnaplanar type construction.Electrostatic diaphragms as far as I know only use a conductive plastic material and not any metal wires.
You're right.
NDFOOTBALL , he is trying to sell products that HIS company makes. Shocker!
+NDFOOTBALL and 60zeller What are you guys talking about? He may be erroneous on his description of these types of speakers(I'm not saying he is as I really don't know), but he never said anything in terms of selling anything.
And really, if you don't like his videos, think he's just hawking his stuff, why do you watch?
If you think you can do better, you can make your own videos, and open your own audio shop while you're at it.
+BRATWURST1 So let me make sure I have this right.
First, you are saying that electrostatic speakers and magneplanars are different, that is that they are constructed differently, correct?
If that's the case, what would you say is the distinction between the two construction methods, how would you explain how the two are made?
Could you give examples of each type?
Am I right in thinking Martin Logan is an electrostatic speaker while Magnepan is a magneplanar?
And finally, which speaker type would you say is better, and why?
@@mydogskips2 -
Depends on the purpose of the system set up.
Clearly a electrostatic speaker set up in a car or large space like a kitchen/living space would be a complete waste of time and money.
But if you want to have a dedicated room for a home theater system/music listening room (especially music with full dynamic frequency range) then electrostatic speakers like martin logan are exceptional for that.
If you are looking for a speaker system to spread throughout the house then dynamic is an obvious choice. And dynamic speakers can be exceptional as well but it all comes down to cost.
I'm not the first to bring this up here, but what about the Heil air motion transformer, as popularized first by ESS and more recently by ADAM Audio? Could you explain and compare that to planar magnetic and conventional ribbon drivers?
The old Quad ESL63s tried to solve the listening position problem by having the membrane divided into multiple rings, with delay lines from the center outwards if I remember it correctly. Still planar, they’re flat, they overcame the inherent issues of one big moving plane. Much better high frequency dispersion in the room, and a better LF-HF balance. Best of both worlds?
They’re stunningly beautiful, though not for every musical genre.
Classical music, in particular chamber music, is hard to beat with other speakers.
The Heil Amt was not mentioned and is the only tweeter that "squeeze's" the air instead of "push it." My ears tell me that not even ribbons or electrostatics can keep up past 8 to 10k hz. They are super fast with virtually no distortion and actually create an "audio hologram" that make them sound "live". But after playing with these for over 40 years I have found that you must have a harmonic in the bass section just like any stringed instrument has and this harmonic will help carry the upper frequencies were this tweeter lives and then the sound is magic. They also have a very wide sound stage which allows a very wide sweet spot....like the whole couch instead of a single chair. Dr. Oskar Heil invented it back in 1974. Thanks for the info. Paul.
Brian Lacombe nothing better thsn a Veil and good midrange and long throw woofer. bark bark.
Heil R basically 'folded ribbons'. The sound is like ribbon (jagged & harsh) but 'fast'. Best sounding tweeter R treated silk 'Linaeum' type = very natural, with none of the 'spitty' character of domes or harshness of other alternatives =)
Pretty much every horn driver 'squeezes' the air, & they all sound like $hit. The only horns that R semi-passable R the circular smooth types, which R not nearly as jaggy nails-on-blackboard hash like every other horn shape. Also, it's INSANE 2 use N E horns because nobody really does big bass horns so may as well use direct radiators up top. Power is CHEAP, & a line array with even super-weak tube gear will go loud as frok. The more & bigger the drivers U got, the MORE efficient a speaker system gets.
Soundstage happens in the midrange.
That's B.S.. Soundstatge is mostly in the highs, & progressively less as U go down in frequency. The directionality of highs helps us localize things, like bats with 'echolocation'. That's part of Y free-standing direct-radiator tweeters give speakers better 'imaging' =)
The Dr West’s Soundlab A3’s are among the best speakers made. A truly outstanding product but with the limitations Paul has elucidated.
The Soundlab A3's sound almost the same as my Acoustats but cost a lot more.
The old rca high fi powered coil speakers come to mind.
A very honourable menyion should also go to the legendary Air Motion Transformer
Gave it a shout out for you. I have been playing with the Heil Amt for over 40 years and I believe it is the best upper driver ever invented. I have 9 functional sets in my sound room both orig. and custom. But there must be a Harmonic in the bass section just like any stringed instrument has. Harmonics go up in the frequency range which is where the Heil Amt lives and when they mix together is when the magic happens. All of the orig. ESS Heil Amt speakers that I have ever purchased has the bass cabinet over stuffed allowing very little harmonics. So I make a hollow in the middle of the cabinet and then I play with the insulation lining the walls of the cab. until a harmonic is revealed that I can HUM too...and then it's magic!!
I am currently using a dipole AMT from Mundorf in my DIY active dipole speakers . They are not cheap (like anything else from Mundorf) but they have incredible power handling and extreme low distortion . They also are capable to maintain a perfect figure of 8 dipole dispersion pattern in the horizontal plane right up to 8 Khz . Best tweeter for this application , hands down !
Paul, you haven't addressed how the new neodymium magnets have changed both planar and dynamic speakers enough to compete with electrostatics.
Thats because it was not the topic of this video.
Neodymium magnets new? I own speakers that were made in 1994 that use them.
What will you be putting up against my Sweet Bippy wager?
2:48 there’s two fly swatters 😂
Great
I don’t think I’ve ever seen an electrostatic with wires on the diaphragm. That would be really heavy. Pretty sure they all just have an electrically conductive coating painted on the surface of the panel. Also, copper is really too heavy to use on a planar magnetic speaker. All that I’m aware of, Including Magneplanar, use aluminum.
The delay coil isn`t on the diaphragm;it is situated in the base of the speaker.
I`ve not checked lately but Magnaplanar definately used to use glued on copper wires on the mylar diaphragms on their midrange and bass drive units.
BRATWURST1 All current (since the x.7 versions) Magneplanars use only pure ribbon and quasi ribbon drivers.
BRATWURST1 Aluminum with a coating...copper has to much mass and weight it would slow the speed of the panel...
Copper would mass more than aluminum, but not by so much that it would likely be debilitating. Mostly it's resonant frequency would be a bit lower.
hey paul check out joppe peelen's youtube channel, he makes planars, rubanoids, electrostats and ribbonspeakers at home, some of them are made almost from chopsticks and sound incredible
estats use conductive coating on paper .. you really should try the new kingsound es-17 or something of the sort compare to your reference
I remenber in my jonger years (1980) you could buy a electrostatic speaker called QUAD, can you stil buy them does anyone know them or stil have them??
I'm no expert but the company does still exist, I see their stuff in e-mails I get from Music Direct. I do have a set of old Stax electrostatic headphones, I understand they're still in production but from what I've seen not officially sold in the US anymore and now pretty expensive compared to what I paid! I do love mine, not the most bass and can't play as loud as others but the detail is incredible.
How does a single membrane produce both a base and a high frequency signal without each of those two signals affecting the other on that single membrane
It doesn't. It will be affected. As the membrane moves slowly for the bass and quickly for the higher frequencies it causes a type of distortion called Dopler. That's one of the reasons speakers have multiple drivers like a tweeter, midrange, and woofer.
No wires on the mylar of an electrostatic. The panels are coated with something that allows the panel to hold the static charge. The speakers are plugged in to maintain the electrostatic charge. The wires run in the grid in front of and behind the panel, that is what the amplifier, through step up transformers, powers. Mine (SoundLab) have a three sided faceted tweeter and two angled woofer panels to mitigate the "head in a vise" imaging.
John LeBeau I couldn’t agree more with you John. Paul’s explanation with mediocre at best and not accurate with today’s improvements with Electrostatic speakers.
@@DuzBee Soundlabs have bass he has not listened to them in a while that why he writes them off lol.
How do ribbons fit in to all of this?
Yes, I am definitely interested. Thanks.
This would have been good if he had actually shown them and there inner workings during the narration.
Electrostatic speakers can also use metallized film or graphite impregnated film. Mine are the latter. I have over taxed them and had to replace the film.
why oh why don't you show some respect to Apogee, Spiegel and Bloom for creating the finest planar magnetic speakers ever! come on Paul ?
darkmatterfalls101, I`m with you on that.I`ve got a multichannel setup using Apogee planars and wouldn`t dream of using any other type of speaker.
Agreed! Plus, the Apogee Full Range is one of the few speakers that is more impressive-sounding and musical than the Infinity IRS V.
I've not heard Spiegel or Bloom, but Apogee sound like broken glass = krap.
@Harry Fishnuts > Glad to read your post. It confirms something I suspected many years ago about Jason Bloom. I first subscribed to Stereophile back in the early 90s. It was in that mag that I first read about Apogee speakers. Most impressive was their B rating of the Stages. This speaker at about $2,500 was the least expensive of the Apogee family and was holding its own with speakers costing $25K or more). Every great review (including other mags) I read, Bloom was there to set up the speakers and when Bloom wasn't there the review was more problematical. It was the only speaker that I can remember where the rep was there almost all the time for setup. In fact Apogee and Bloom was almost synonymous. He was a kind of rock star back then.
Fast forward to the late 90s. A high end dealer was doing a demonstration of several high end products including the Stages. I worked at Texas Instruments which was just across the street from the dealer in far north Dallas so I attended. When I first walked into the building (part of a strip mall) there was this guy with a hand load of CDs just ahead of me. He asked me if I knew where the demos were taking place. I glanced to my right and I immediately recognized the Stages. "There." After hearing about these speakers for about a decade I was finally going to get to hear them for the first time. They looked quite impressive in that dim lit ambient room; almost like something you would see in a cathedral. Should we take our shoes off in their presence? Each speaker was connected to a big Krell. As we sat down on the front row of chairs I noticed there was this guy constantly pacing near the speakers. He was dressed in all black; black silk pants, and a black silk shirt. In the dim light his hair looked liked it was jet black and curly. The black silk shirt had billowy sleeves like the ones you see on flying trapeze artists, or a juggler you would see on the old Ed Sullivan show, or some would say he looked like a circus gypsy, or even a pimp!
The guy running the high end shop came in and introduced the man that was doing all the pacing. "This is Jason Bloom of Apogee Acoustics..." So THIS is the famous Jason Bloom I said to myself, thinking he would look rather nerdy and less of a showman.
He talked briefly about the speakers then he played a CD. I think the track was "Moments in Love" by Art of Noise. The track ended and while he was setting up to play another CD, the guy next to me said, "wow that really sounded great I wish I could own a pair." He was talking to ME. I said to him exactly these words, "yeah and maybe he can help you setting them up." Bloom stopped fiddling with the CD. He had heard my response and angrily looked at me and snapped. He said basically he didn't need to be there and that any idiot could set them up. He didn't actually call me an idiot though. He wanted to know why did I think they would be difficult to set up. What I wanted to say, but didn't respond at all was that "he was always there to set up the speakers for reviewers." If reviewers needed help what about the layman? Since I didn't respond at all it seemed to piss him off even more. I was thinking that if I said ANYTHING at all this dude was going to pull out a knife hidden within those big shirt sleeves and come at me! He then announced that the room that we were in was not conducive to serious listening and so he ended right then and there any further demonstrations of the Stages. Too bad. All I said was "yeah and maybe he can help you setting them up!" Seems like a benign and innocuous statement. Never thought that statement would create such a furor.
Since I didn't understand his negative reaction I became a bit cynical about him later. I began to think he was at many private Apogee product reviews (non conventions and shows) like at The Absolute Sound, Stereophile etc. to bully the reviewer (ha ha)! He was going to be there and MAKE SURE his product got a damn good review. NOW, he was looking more like a hitman! Even the slightest hint, like difficulty in setup meant (to him I guess) a decrease in sales. I really didn't know what his problem was. DUDE, I WAS JOKING! I wasn't even talking to him anyway. In that very room the speakers sounded great. All there were impressed, so some side remark I made should not have generated such an over-the-top and grand show stopping negative reaction from the great and wonderful showman Jason Bloom----the powerful Wizard of Apogee.
A few years later I read that he had died after an accident at home. I don't remember if his father in law/designer Leo Spiegel was still alive at that time. Apogee at the time was under some stress and so with Bloom's death Apogee was probably doomed. Well wishers of Bloom were far and wide all attesting to how charming and affable he was. I'm sure he must have been, all these people knew him and worked with him for years. I didn't, my experience with him was only a few minutes so my thoughts don't really count, BUT I do know my impressions with him on a limited basis were not favorable and I didn't like him that much. That certainly doesn't mean his company didn't make good products, however. I figure most people who bought Apogee products (in those days) were audiophiles and would eventually get the setup right if the room was okay.
These days whenever I see a mention of Apogee speakers (usually about a fix-em up guy in Australia) I think about my one-sided "encounter" with Bloom and wonder if he really was that super sensitive about set up. Your post confirmed what I suspected all along. If you were at that demo some years ago and you said what you have posted here I fear you would not be alive today!
@@BRATWURST1 Thanks that sounds awesome :-)
Whats your views on Russell Brand?
I used to sell PS AUDIO in Canada in the early eighties at Straight Gain Electronics in Toronto with Peter
And ribbons?
joder! but which is better?????
Electrostatics have come a LONG way. If you get the chance, try the latest Quads with an Accuphase E450 (or whatever has taken over from that one). No head in a vice, masses of base and staggering clarity. The dealer that let me try them with my Accuphase was blown away and he didn't deal with Accuphase. Honestly, give it a try if you get a chance. The problem? Wives think they are too big. Huh. So I ended up with Focal Utopia Diablos. Easier to live with but only the Quads have that extra transparency that nothing else can offer.
Why do you say they (electrostatics) are not practical?
That is the opposite of what people tell me when they hear my Martin Logan Vistas. More listening needed on your end! I live in the Springs, so when you are bored come by! ;)
What about ribons?
Doesn't an electrostatic speaker work like a capacitor ?
Yes - which is why you can get microphonic capacitors - as well as capacitors that emit a high pitched whistle ..
So electrostatic speakers have a voltage-magnifying transformer per speaker that you also have to be concerned about breaking.
The way you talk is like a snowball rolling down a mountain, so slow at the beginning, kinda lightly bouncing around and then to focus a little more and gain momentum. About 3/4 the way you are on topic and a good pace then bing, bang, boom all done.🤣 just like my dad!
I recognize this guy. He's the one that thinks using a green marker on the side of a cd makes it sound different.
Dont forget laser vacuum drive. Those are better than all you mentioned
Right that's why you don't see them anywhere...so no they are not better at all
you explain only the phyical \/mecahanical properties of the 3 tweeters but not the difference of sound character of each
Why listen to this description when you can listen to Roger West describe his Soundlab speakers.Go to the experts.Do your due diligence people.
There also horn speakers 😀
CORRECTION: Electrostats DO NOT have wires embedded fine wires with the plastic membrane/mylar. You must be referring to a Magnepan.
The transformer in an electrostatic speaker must surely impart some kind of distortion into the signal, no?
i clicked because of picture, did not found that speakers lel
Re: no magnets, howabout PIEZO! Haha. Actually can sound decent if freq. response is flat, usually isn't close. Underexplored tech due to crude examples?
Two screen doors with a cleaning bag between.
I wonder if my wife will let me have a set of those speakers in the thumbnail to this video. I think we all know the answer to that.
Father to goldador 1 , not a speaker to have if you have a young active Cat
You took almost the entire video to describe electrostats and the last minute or two on planar magnetics, but you didn't address ribbons at all.
You bet your sweet bippy. straight from Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In got to like it.😀😁😀😁
i think it had some sexual premise..Great show for it's time. it would never be allowed to air today.
Something tells me you have never heard Acoustat X's. There is nothing like electrostatic bass except for the real thing. Come here and tell me my Acoustats lack bass. In my opinion electrostatics are the best practical home speaker.
You are welcome to stop by if you are in the area.
@@andershammer9307 I have stacked Quads and there's this bass drum on a version of Walton's "Facade" that used to make me jump out of my seat :)
I have a vinyl record thats more dynamic than any CD I've ever heard and its called Flamenco Fever. Its recorded direct to disc. There is a dancer who stomps on a stage making great shock waves of bass. Sounds exciting on my electrostatics. The record now sells for hundreds if not over $1000. I bought mine new for $17.