Adjusting Breathing Effort - Scuba Tech Tips: S09E04
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- Viewers asked how a service professional accurately measures and adjusts the second stage breathing effort. Alec explains the process and why a magnehelic meter is needed to measure breathing effort.
Watch my "Alec Peirce at the Ranch" for ranch and home ideas. / @alecpeirceattheranch
**** Alec Peirce Scuba ****
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The best scuba channel hands down.
Thanks Ahmed. Glad to share what I learned.
This is the equivalent of watching Mr. Wizard years ago. I love the way this is being taught. The world needs more instructors like you.
Thanks Rick. Hope to keep doing these a long time.
A
Thank you, it was very interesting again Alec! Can't wait the next upcoming tech tip video! Loved it!
Thanks Daniel.
alec
Very cool , thanks Alec please keep the videos coming. It’s great to see you online
Thanks Graydon.
Alec
Your Tech Tips are always very interesting...thanks for posting Alec....
Hi Bristol.
Good to hear from you.
Alec
Absolutely amazing Alec!
Thank you Kostas.
Alec
you always make me laugh and I always learn something, as a newcomer to scuba at 40 years old, living landlocked in the midlands UK, this type of content is truly excellent, I have the deepest respect for you not only for your vast amount of knowledge but also your wonderful personality, thanks again
Thank you Mark.
Ahh, the Midlands. Not a lot of diving there but there's good stuff not far away. I've been there a couple of times. My dad was born in Kent. Beautiful area.
Take care.
Alec
A great job again. I like the education. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and educating us. I learn a lot watching your channel Thank you once again my friend
One of these days when your back down in FL we will have to get together go diving and maybe lunch if time permits
Thanks
Will
Diana and I are in Florida every year, sometimes more than once.
Where are you in Florida - just the city is fine?
Alec
Thank you for all these videos. invaluable for a newbie like myself
Thanks for watching. I'm glad you're getting some useful ideas.
Alec
I used a zeagle regulator and I was very satisfied with how easy breathing it was. I was able to breathe smoothly from it and enjoy my dive because I was relaxed and I barely had to suck on the regulator for it to give me air.
great to see another tech tip! and the humor with Kevin... Would be great to see more drysuit episodes as I think we were promised a few but only got a teaser one. So much to talk about pro and cons of different materials, techniques (pre-dump your air before ascending, bcd vs drysuit inflation, etc... most expensive dive item you will own too.
We've been trying to get into our Drysuit series but keep running into practical problems.
I hope we get it sorted out soon.
Alec
Awesome video, thank you for your explanations!
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Thanks Alec!
Hi again Lulu.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
great video
Always informative and funny; great job.
Laugh or learn - your choice.
I'm glad you enjoyed it Barry.
Alec
Once again Alec, great video. I have always wondered what that instrument was. Now I know. Thanks.
It's basically a reverse pressure gauge but verrrry sensitive.
Take care.
Alec
Awesome video, as always learned a lot
Thanks for watching Joao.
Alec
Hi Alec, Happy to watch another episode. Still mending from surgery, don't have my gear yet, however I'll keep your recommendations in mind when situation arises. Be well my friend and say hi to Kevin. 👍
Thanks, Mark.
Take care.
Alec
It's an awesome day when Alec posts a new tech tip! Woot! You best hope that Kevin never explores other work options. ;-) He's a good egg.
Scrambled, let me tell you - but good!
Alec
Again, exellent walkthrue!
Glad you like it.
A
P
⁰@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter
Hi Alec, I finished my Open Waters PADI and now I'm doing the OW Advanced. I appreciate so much your Tech Tips because I have no equipment at all and I'm studying options. Greetings from Santiago of Chile
Best of luck and thanks for watching. Glad my rants help you along.
A.
Fantastic tech video as always! I wish you ran a school for repair. It seems like the industry does everything it can to keep it secret. Unless you sell $20,000 worth of units a year.
That's a neat idea - I could start a Scuba Repair School.
Thanks.
Alec
Great video I really like it
Thank you MDO. I hope you picked up some good info.
Alec
Now I have to go watch your trimix video!
There are worse ways to spend your time Bill.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Dear Alec,
Greetings to you. Quick question regarding terms used. What is the difference between Inhalation Effort, Cracking Pressure, and Magnahelic Pressure?
Thanks again to you and Kevin for your help and very informative videos.
Best Regards,,,
Issam
Sir, i commend you. The way you break down what could be considered a rather complex concept to lamest terms and with day to day examples is incredible. Thank you for doing this. A quick question. Does a digital differential pressure gauge would function as good as an analog one?
A digital would give the same numbers but it's seeing the needle go between + and - that makes it easier for techs to use. There are many analog gauges but I have not seen anyone use a digital one.
A
I am like what you are saying, never been driving. As I can swim. Looking to give it ago. Thanks
I think you'll love it James.
Let us know.
Alec
We are in Riverview Fl about 1/2 hours drive south of Tampa Fl depending on traffic lol
That's not far from Silver Springs which is just west of Ocala. Maybe we will meet.
Alec
Hi Alec . Interesting thing to note is the differences in pressure in the cheap gauge (145 psi) and the better bench gauge (155 psi) good to be close but the cheap ones are just in the ball park. You referred to inches of water, there is also inches of mercury both are measures of vacuum, for reference a shop vac is about 4 or 5 inches of mercury. To adjust the breathing on my old aquamatic was a real challenge ,disassemble and washers under the spring for each trial, hope you got yours working too? Take care Owen m
The breathing effort to start air flow in a scuba regulator would not likely even register on a mercury tube.
That's exactly why they use water and inches of water. Mercury is about 15 times heavier than water and slower to react.
For breathing effort, inches of water is quicker, more accurate and much easier to understand.
The Aquamatic was a unique design at the time and still is. Those 2 levers increased the inhalation effort a lot. Plus the friction of the levers on the cone and effort required to open the levers on the sharp slope of the cone made the Aquamatic a popular but very hard breathing regulator. It was the first regulator I ever owned and I loved it - and hated it!
I've not yet had the time to try your parts. They look good and I am hoping to get them working soon.
Alec
the use of magnehelic gauges is widely spread in the ventilation ( HVAC ) industry as a comparizon, a pressure difference of only 2 inches of water from one side to the other of a standard door makes that a hefty man can't open it.
this is a very good video that illustrate that the tooling used to tune regulators is not that sophisticated
with a bit if immagination, somebody can gather and build his own tooilng.
Yep! You can make a simple Magnehelic gauge. I did that years ago when racing motorcycles. To tune the dual carbs, I made a water gauge (really just a tube with marks on it fastened to a board) so I could match the vacuum on each carb.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Great video! How about a video on sac rate ?
I forgot the formula
I can do something on that.
For now:
Where SAC is surface air consumption rate and DCR is Depth Compensated Rate. One of these has to be manually
determined.
SAC Rate = (DCR x 33) / (Depth + 33)
Let's look at an example. Suppose you did a 50 foot dive for 25 minutes and used 1700 pounds of air. This would mean our DCR is 1700/25 or 68 pounds per minute. Using this in our formula we get:
SAC Rate = (68 x 33) / (50+33)
or: SAC Rate = 2244/83 or about 27 pounds per minute.
Take care.
Alec
Again, a great video! Question: How would I use a Magnelhelic gauge on a double hose regulator such as either a Royal Aqua Master, which is a two-stage regulator or a Mistral, which is a single stage regulator?
Or am I just as well off using only a small 200 psi gauge like what you first showed?
You push it into the double hose mouthpiece, just like a single hose, to measure the effort. The Mouthpiece Adapter provided with most Magnehelic Gauges gives an airtight seal on all diving industry second stages. Give it a try.
Hi Alex, thanks for all of your informative videos. In the case of adjusting the safe second should it typically be set up to the same specs or same level level of inhalation effort as the primary or should it be “detuned” slightly to reduce the likelihood of freeflow. In this case I am asking about a set of regs with non adjustable breathing effort knob. Thanks.
I personally like to have the octopus set slightly harder.
1. that reduces the likelihood of a Free Flow when you jump in
2. it also reduces the likelihood of my buddy asking to use my "hard breathing" octo! (well, maybe not, if he's out of air).
Alec
The best thing is to have both second stages equipped with manual regulation of inspiratory effort. So you can adjust the secondary one to the minimum to avoid the risk of freeflow but you can increase it in case of use. This way you do not expose yourself to the risk of having a regulator with high inhalation effort just when you are in an emergency.
Greetings dear Alec
I am loving your videos many thanks for taking the time to make them.
I have two questions regarding this video
1) The adapter that goes from the Magnehelic hose, and seals into the second stage mouth piece, with one open end that you draw air from.
Is this store bought or home made?
2) Would the “Inline Adjuster Tool” that you are using in this video work on a “Atomic Z2X” second stage regulator ?
When looking into the second stage male tread fitting, I do not see a little screw adjusting head ?
Thank you in advance
Gino
Thanks for watching Gino.
I'm glad you're enjoying the videos.
1. It is factory but it could be homemade. It's really nothing more than a short piece of soft rubber tube that will squeeze to fit into the mouthpiece of any regulator. It's about 4" long. One end goes into the reg mouthpiece. The other end is drawn on by your mouth.
On the side of that tube, there is a plastic tube like a spigot that has a piece of plastic tubing (think aquarium tubing) running to the meter.
2. Atomic makes a fine product, maybe not as special as they would have you believe, but very good. Most of their "innovative" and "exclusive" design features are actually modern versions of older technology. It suppose it fair to say 'updated'.
The second stage is very simple and similar to many others on the market. The orifice is adjustable just like most others and uses the same pneumatic tool. It can only be adjusted under pressure so it really does require that tool.
The 'screw adjusting head' is really just 2 notches in the seat that faces out of the body. You can see that head and the 2 notches in this picture from the Atomic website: www.atomicaquatics.com/images/SS7b.png
Alec
Dear Alec
I will acquire the appropriate inline tool and make the hose adapter.
Thank you again for sharing your life’s experiences
Not at all....you are great & very entertaining to watch (as well as a great instructor) :-)
OK. Thanks Russ.
Alec
Hi Alec, thanks for the awesome video! Quick question: this breathing effort adjustment I understand is done by adjusting the seat (e.g. using the inline tool). What do you do with the adjustment knob on the other side on regulators that have one? Has it got a role in this?
Oh yeah! It has a role.
In fact, the diver adjustment knob is just an identical spring pressure adjustment on the seat just like the seat adjustment done with the in-line tool. It's just at the other end of the poppet shaft.
And the range of adjustment is very limited.
Once the serviceman sets the breathing adjustment to factory specs, the diver can increase or decrease the spring pressure on the seat to make it slightly harder or slightly easier to breathe. The increase in effort is not much, usually just enough to stop a slight freeflow. The decrease is usually just enough to start a slight freeflow.
While all reg specs are different, generally the diver adjustment knob is set to it's lightest, (easiest breathing) setting. Then the serviceman sets the seat to the easiest breathing too. Now the reg is jst below a state of freeflow. and ready to dive.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter thanks that makes complete sense!
thank you! how about discussions on hydrogen tanks and regulators, sir?
Won't be doing hydrogen, but you probably mean helium.
"Muskoka air" is always good...
Yep. Clean and cool.
Alec
More complicated on a performance regulator like the poseidons. Not speaking of the poseidon ccr bov which has 2 breath resistance setups for different things :)))))
Some regulators take more time and more rigid adherence to the process but it's the same.
Alec
While using Helium and the reg free flows, is it the breathing effort that needs adjusting or is the flaw in the design of the purge button while at ambient pressure? First stage reg IP is correctly set. No guesses.
The primary reason all regs free flow is the adiabatic process. Other factors can be influence free flows like: IP, breathing effort, etc. but are not a predominate as adiabatic effects. Suggest watching S09E05 Why Does My Regulator Free Flow, for a more informed explanation from my favourite CZcams guy!
My Regulators have a breathing effort adjustment lever, could you explain to us when you would need to adjust it, I get different answers from different instructors and tech divers
If the reg is properly tuned by the service center, you ought not to need touch that knob at all. There's no reason to make the breathing harder (unless you have a freeflow) and making it easier would lead to a freeflow.
However, some divers don't the breathing too light so that adjustment lets them make it a bit heavier.
The breathing effort adjustment, which is quite common and any but the cheapest models, is a highly-touted feature but is really not of great value - assuming your reg is regularly and properly serviced.
Alec
Hi Alec
Can you please go into a little bit of detail on your ScubaTools stand. Each part from input and every part in between to the mouth piece.
At work we use the "Compact Deluxe Flow Bench-Double Magnehelic", but for my own personal use, I plan on getting the "ScubaTools Dual Pro 5-0-5", which is very similar to yours from what I can tell. I just need to know what each part from right (input) to left (mouth piece). I want to be able to test my own FFM 2nd Stage Regulator.
If you don't see my comment here or show how your setup is, it's all good because I'm pretty sure I can figure it out since I have experience with the one I use at work.
I also test AGA 2nd stage regs too, but with Interspiros water test kit. So I have a super good understanding when you talked about the "inches of water".
Anyways, I hope you see this post and I hope you take the time to show your Scuba Tools Dual Pro Stand setup.
Thank you for your time sir.
Hello. Thanks for the feedback but I will not be doing a video on that setup as its of little interest to divers but very important to service tech's like yourself. I will put it in my ideas list for a future LDS Pro tip on what to look for when buying a testing setup. Scuba Tools has a wealth of knowledge on these test tools. Thanks for the idea.
A
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter
Good morning sir,
Understood. Like I said, I understand the gauges and air setup already anyways, but thought it would be interesting since you went through on how to do the 2nd stages.
I'm certified with the OTS Guardian and Stealth (i.e. Guardian mask) FFMs, Guardian & Stealth 2nd stages and the MKII Interspiro FFM and the pos/non-pos 2nd stage regulator (i.e. what Interspiro calls a "breathing valve"... a.k.a. AGA mask and AGA regulator).
Anyways, the only part on that dual stand I'm not quite sure of because I can't find any literature (*.pdf manual) is what is that brass fitting on the inlet LP side? Is that a pressure pop valve? If so, is it rated at 150psi, 200psi? I would imagine around 200psi since most LP hoses are typically rated around 250PSI max pressure.
But yeah, I'm just curious if that brass fitting on the LP inlet side is a air pop valve and what rating?
BTW, Interspiro mini-test kit is ALL water tested for "cracking pressure adjustments". You, more or less, use "inches of water testing" and I was laughing when you talked about the inches of water because that's what I have to deal with and it can get very "splashy" at times!!! HAHAHA
That's all I was wondering was the brass fitting looking piece? It looks like an air release pop valve, but hard to tell in the picture?
Thank you for taking the time to read sir and even replying on my OP!!! That's AWESOME!!!
Have a very blessed day to you sir and I hope to hear from you soon.
Hi Alec! I hope this is not a stupid question.. But how do I set the breathing effort adjustment lever when I adjust the second stage? Thanks for a great video! /John
At one time, breathing adjustment was set by bending the 2nd stage lever up or down to make it closer or farther from the diaphragm. That is not nearly so fine an adjustment as we have today, nor as easy. One doesn't usually bend the lever anymore.
In most regs, you increase or decrease the 2nd stage spring pressure by moving the orifice closer or farther away. That's usually how the external adjustments work.
But each reg is slightly different. Let me know what you have and I might be able to help.;
Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba Thank you!
How about a video on Smaco mini scuba tank?
The Smaco is a Spare air. I've done a couple of videos on that.
Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba what is the video called? I am 11 years old how old do I have to be to take scuba lessons? Ps keep up the good videos👍
Do you test and set the cracking effort with the venturi set to dive or predive?
The venturi is always set to pre-dive (lowest venturi effect).
The Venturi can make the Magnehekic gauge go crazy and the Venturi has no relationship to breathing effort - the effort required to start air flow. The Venturi doesn't work until the air flow starts.
Alec
I don't think the venturi affects effort, only flow pattern after that. If you mean the effort knob then it should be at easiest when adjusting as you will be able to make it harder later - any easier would free flow.
I've been looking at replacement regulators. The manuafactuers are advertising breathing effort as:
"Overall work of breathing (WOB) scores: Avg. 0.70 joules/liter".
Would .7 joules/liter be about 1.5" of water?
My first suggestion is to not get too worked up over the WOB. Most regs today, certainly anything above the most basic, will offer breathing resistance so low as to be almost undetectable. What you're looking at is a manufacturer's advertising ploy to indicate their reg is better. The actual difference is between 0.70 joules/liter and 1.0 joules/liter is barely measurable much less of importance to the diver - in most cases.
To translate joules, a measurement of energy (we could call this effort- not exactly scientific but practical) into inches of water is possible but would require expensive instrumentation and/or a complicated formula. Most regulators are still measured in inches of water, more because it's easy to understand and explain rather than more accurate.
0.70 joules/liter means that the amount of energy expended to have a liter of water flow through the reg is 0.70 joules. The earliest example of a joule is the amount of energy needed to lift an apple 1 meter vertically - not exactly translatable into a scuba divers breathing effort!!
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Thank you, The consumer is faced with a lot of marketing fluff as manufactures push their wares. I appreciate your candid approach in simplifying issues that may otherwise be complex for the common consumer. Caveat Emptor.
to make it reads easier, it's just a differential pressure gauge...
It measures pressure but in a very different way from say tank pressure. It measures the force to breath in/out which is not a lot but you want it set to the easiest breathing effort possible, this is needed.
Hello Alec,
Great videos as always, much to learn from a pro like you. I am in the process of buying a Dual Pro Stand, 5-0-5 Magnehelic from scubatools.com, yet I found the A.I.R. Flow Analyzer which test diving regulators under both static and dynamic conditions. A huge price difference the Dual Pro Stand is sold for $368.00 while the A.I.R. Flow Analyzer is priced at $988.00 Being a certified freelance scuba repair technician, what would you recommend?
Thanking again and look forward to your valuable advise :)
Best Regards,,,
Issam
There is one major difference between the test instruments. The A.I.R. has a Flow Meter; the Dual Gauge does not.
The flow meter would be a nice addition and would give you some information of value, specifically the rate of air flow through the regulator at any depth or pressure.
However, while this information is vital to a manufacturer or a reg developer, it's of less value to a reg owner since the rate of air flow cannot be changed!! What's the point of having an instrument that gives a numerical value that cannot be modified?
So, while the flow meter is a neat device, since it will not add anything to your ability to measure and adjust your reg, why bother?
Alec
do all brands have the same numbers?
The breathing effort between brands varies slightly. Not enough the average recreational diver would ever notice but it is a small numerical difference. Would a diver feel the difference between 1 and 1.1? Nope but it does give the service tech an indication of where the "sweet spot" is.
A
First time ever being first on a video comment section.
Welcome BC.
I hope you get some ideas or at least some laughs.
Alec
Thanks.
2nd !!!!
Ditto!
Alec
Hello sir? Can I asking? what is the function of magnehelic, can you explain it in simple language
can i see the installation of the tool you are describing
I will get you started. Read the full story at: scuba-clinic-tools.com/blogs/technical-info/measuring-cracking-effort
Cracking or inhalation effort can be defined as the minimum amount of inhalation effort or vacuum required to start the airflow through the second stage regulator.
The total amount of inhalation effort required to slightly open the second stage and start the airflow will be displayed on the differential pressure or on a Magnehelic® gauge. So a Magnelelic gauge is used to measure the effort/force to start air flowing to breath. The lower the effort the easer to breath. Lots more to read on the ScubaClinic's website.
A
Thanks
Would you show me, set up magnehelic with intermediate pressure
Is it me or does this guy remind you of Jeff Dunhams puppet "Walter"?
You calling me a dummy????
Alec
How about you just forget the gauge, and do exactly what you said:
Seal the mouthpiece to a tube that dips into a bucket of water (allow some water into the tube first). Mark the water level on the tube. Slowly lift the tube until the water level inside the tube drops below the mark. The level between your mark and the surface of the water is your breathing pressure. Easy-peasy. No need for any gauge at all, no need for good ears, just a tube, some water, and a ruler.
Gauges are more accurate, cleaner and less setup. Also imaging a customer complaint about breathing effort and you show your sweet tube, bucket and ruler setup? Not what customers want in a service pro, sorry Caleb.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I actually *guess* my setup would be more accurate because there's no need for timing and watching the IP and guessing what the meter read at the same time. it would be super precise I think . That would need to be verified though ;-) But yeah, for a pro shop, sure you can have all the fancy dials. For a home user that wants to tweak things, if this method works, it'd cost nothing and I think be quite repeatable and accurate. Verification needed ;-)
I'm following you from Saudi Arabia 🇸🇦
I'm a scuba diving technician in.
Natlus divers center.
We have the same tools 🔧 which are you using
I really appreciate your braving effort 👌
You are the sir 🙏
I learned a lot from you 💯
U are the legend 🙌
Thanks 👍 😊 🫂
For your information
Thank you very much from snowy and cold Canada. Hope my videos help you keep customers happy by knowing more than they do. Safe diving my friend.
A