How to Choose the Fastest Motors for your 3D Printer
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
- In this Video, I want to give you a brief overview how to choose the fastest stepper motors for your 3d printer. At the example of the THE 100 Printer I show you how I chose the motors i've used in my 3 minutes 3d benchy run.
Links mentioned in the video:
- Eddies Github Repository: github.com/eddietheengineer/d...
- Eddies Video on his motor simulation tool: • How Fast Can Your Prin...
- My updated sheet: github.com/MSzturc/the100/tre...
You want to know what happens behind the scenes? Have a look in my development diary on Hackaday
hackaday.io/project/190348-th...
You want to build a THE 100 by your own? At GitHub you find everything you need
github.com/MSzturc/the100
You want to help me cover my running costs? Feel free to leave a subscription at Patreon
/ the100
You want to see more printed parts by THE 100? Follow me on TikTok where I post all the parts I've printed on THE 100
/ matttheprintingnerd
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#creality #bambu #3dprinter #klipper #ender3 #making #3dprinting #fastestprinting #diy #speedboatrace #corexy #customprinter #bestprinter #highflow - Věda a technologie
Great video, dankeschön, I'll admit in the past I was looking at torque and price, more recently I was looking at the BOMs of trustworthy projects like the Vorons but this brings it to a whole new level. I may be an ambitious DIYer but I'm certainly no engineer and I don't claim to understand every term you mentioned, but videos like this that break down science/engineering into managable pieces really provide value!
I had no idea how import motors were until I watched your video. Thanks for explaining the little things
Great info. I'm actually looking for some new motors to drive my new build. I've learned from my first printer that for me it's not about speed, it's about accuracy. That's why I'm going with an all ballscrew build. Still, this is a lot of good things to think about. Thanks for the video.
Thank you very very much! I upgraded my old Printer to 24V and changed the steppers based on your explanation and the excel sheet. The result is crazy. I were able to increase the acceleration from around 3000 to 20000 and reached the end of my Nozzle flow very fast. It is like I have installed a rocket to the printer. The part cooling is now also to weak. Thanks, I had a lot fun upgrading it.
What motor do you have used?
@@vishalpatel-hn3pc For X-Axis I built in 17HS08-1004S (Stepperonline) and for Y-Axis 17HS16-2004S1 (No-name). Those steppers are sold from different brands (e.g. OMC). The one for the Y-Axis is a no-name stepper. I choose a lighter and smaller stepper for the X-Axis like the original one, because it is moved by the Y-Axis and also the diagrams from the simulation showed, that it can keep up with the Y-Axis and provides enough torque and speed to satisfy me. Meanwhile I had to decrease the accelartion down to 3-5k, depending on the part I want to print, because the mechanic of the printer is not sturdy enough and it causes awful ghosting xD So I have now a new task to upgrade my printer :D
Good video man. Thanks for sharing. The math are good but rarely I trust the manufacturers specs or the specs on ali. Testing them is the only way I can be sure :)
Great video!
Nice video. I will look into Eddies work. What I find particularly hard is to search for motors. There are no sites where you can filter for different stats, you have to look into every spec sheet. But even if you have found the motor of choice there can be things you didn't expect. Like noise and vfa at different speeds.
I have a Flying Bear Reborn 2 for some month now. And I was very displeased with it in the beginning. Compared to my delta it was quite noisy and the surface quality wasn't as good due to vfa. But after experimenting a bit I'm more sattisfied now. The vfa vanishes at about 150 mm/s wich is totaly usable. And I didn't test higher acceleration so far, but at 10K I got my travel moves up to 750 mm/s at only 0.95 Amps. Next I will test how the motors behave at 15K & 20K.
The printer is still way noisier than my delta. But now the performance is good. Well it will be great once I upgraded the hotend to get a bit more flow.
This is amazing 👏 🙌 😍 ❤️
Thx man! ;-)
GREAT VID! I'll be saving this for when I plan my next build.
I just assumed LDO's were the best price/performance.
At least my ratrig does great on them.
They are not bad as you've seen in the graph but you have to keep in mind that LDO has over 50 motors in their portfolio and not every motor will be a good A/B motor. Also you have to consider that most of the people out there that build a voron or a ratrig use their klipper configuration and only a few change it to their needs. For example in all voron configuration the stepper motors have a 0.8A current which the sweetspot i've chose for my tests
Great video and the updated sheet is a golden timesaver! For higher voltages I would probably choose the Wantai, and for lower the LDO 2804AC.
By limiting them by dissipated heat and not current they quickly get their torque back. I guess I'll be on a lookout for drivers that can push them there now.
Edit: The extra low inductance LDO motor seems like a nightmare to drive silently. Wantai it is.
For 99% of the ppl out there the LDO's are not worth it. Those are made for Speedboat printing and this is the only discipline the shine
Real engineering shit right here. Great video
Thank you for this comprehensive video. I was hoping that you would have included budget option. Most tech reviews include the best overall and best for different scenarios like you have done but they also include budget options in comparison.
Yeah I though about that but the problem is that the prices on ali express a way overpriced.. In the last weeks i've talked to many sellers about their products anonymous and 2/3 sellers gave me a big discount on their products. Discounts like 5 pcs motors that normally sell for 48$ for 17$... so It's really really complicated to define this budget motor. I would suggest that you find 2-3 motors that perform well in your scenario and talk to the manufacturers. I normally ask them for guidance and most of the time they choose the motor a like and give me a realistic price
@@MattThePrintingNerd thank you for the tip. Do you contact the seller or manufacturer?
@@madvelila I do it always and it helps me to keep my costs on my build way lower
Good video, it's a shame that we don't have information on motor self-resonance and vibration/noise.
What we all really needed! Great information indeed.
Maybe if you could put in the information on the Moon's motor that comes with Formbot kits (17HS19-2004S1) since that is a very popular stepper used (other than LDO)
They already part of the spreadsheet. As in most kits they have way too much torque, my guess would be to reduce support tickets since when you're near at the torque limit of your motor and your production has a high variance in quality you might get skipping when you get a slightly worse motor, therefore they use higher torque motors to be on the safer side.. and you can't blame them for that, it's something I would also do when selling kits :-)
Isent the "17Hs19-2004S1" is a "stepper online" brand motor?
Is "moon" and stepper online is the same product?
Thanks for the great technical depth. Did you (and Eddy) just figured out the silent models as a side effect? I rebuild an ender 3 a few years ago with Motec mt-1703hsm168re which was super nice. Then I saw a nice 6-pack of Usongshine 0.9 Degree 17HS4401S-0.9 which are so noisy!
Are there any additional recommendation for low-noise stepper motors, preferably with 0.9 stepping?
Thank you very much for a detailed explanation! I want to ask your opinion about Nanotec motors, or perhaps over highend option you would suggest.
I'm pretty sure I've complimented you previously on the quality of your videos. This is another in that vein! I will however provide a caveat before I start that it's been years, or more easily measured in decades, since I looked at this stuff in detail, so if you smell something burning, it's the dust from some very old synapses! And definitely correct any errors in my thinking (remembering).
I do have a couple questions. You talked about the importance of motor resistance and inductance. Also isn't there at term Reluctance? But if I remember that get's more into the geometry of the windings, so that's probably defined by the motor frame size and length, which you discuss later. True?
Regarding resistance, isn't that a larger consideration when the motor is stopped? The resistance is more of a problem when the motor current is at maximum, which doesn't have the chance to happen when the phase currents are always changing as the motor spins. Correct? Slow speeds are when the resistance value will contribute to the motor heating that you wish to reduce to protect the entire assembly during long prints, correct?
The biggest performance problem is the changing motor current as the motor turns, correct? And that's more a factor of the inductance than anything else, oh yeah, and the driving voltage. The problem is to maximize the rate of change of the current in the motor windings isn't it? So a lower inductance motor helps with that, yes?
But also the motor voltage can help change the rate of current flow. I know that you didn't want to use 48V due to cost, but many motor driver chips have a much larger nominal voltage capability than 24V. While this will impact total dissipation, wouldn't a modest increase in driving voltage, say to 28V, 32V, or possibly 36V provide a substantial increase in performance without a large increase in driver costs? Also even a small increase could get you past some of the marginal motors that ALMOST made the torque cut for some system specs. And you can still maintain the motor currents that you want.
Any thoughts on my thoughts?
Yeah it's defined by the motor size, a longer motor has more coils but the internal construction of a coil is the same (in the budget segment)
You're correct, the biggest impact of the resistance of a motor is through the heat it generates. Inductance has a way bigger impact on the speed of a motor.
Going 48V does not increase the maximum torque of a motor, rather it extends the torque it provides at a higher speed. As you wrote inductance reduced the voltage flowing through the motor which reduces the motors torque, higher voltage means that you can have more steps/s which will increase the speed
Yes stepper motors are so very important.
I learned this with my ender 3. I belted the z and replaced the extruder. So i used the extruder stepper for the z axis because it had more torque. I then ran into issues with my extruder i had. So as a temporary solution i rebuilt my stock extruder. I used the z axis stepper motor because the stock extruder stepper was used on the z. I tell you what, don't ever waste your time doin something goofy like that!
Hot hot steppers and under extrusion fer dayz
interesting video. 👍 Now, for the two xy-motors the choice would be something stronger. But what to choose for the z-axis motors and for the extruder? Are there the same requirements? The extruder also needs some force to push the material through the nozzle, but is tit the same force and speed that is needed for the xy-gantry?
Great video. You should take a look at the Leadshine 42CM06 motors.
I had, but they are overpriced premium motors where you pay way more than you should YunTaiKe sell the same design for 1/3 of the price
@@MattThePrintingNerd YunTaiKe are selling them for the correct price then. The 42CM06 motors are 10 USD on Leadshine's official Taobao store.
Ahh when I looked at the last time i found only shops on aliexpress for 40$ and more
FIY motor temperature depends not only on current, but also on coil resistance, basically LDO 2804 as a clone of $100 TMC steppers is a king of the hill which due it's 1/4 of price and exceptionally low inductance it shows outstanding performance on 24v which other motors wouldn't able to show even on 48v
Imagine putting Ldo at 60v with the new external driver and the new board… 🤒
@@occasionalriders1885or go with a dm856 and go 80v 1.4-5.6A.
Nice video but sadly I didn't chose my motors for my last conversion project of converting a $20 basically trash ready Anet A6 to a more true i3 style bed slinger. Now it prints beautiful prints. My next 3D printer will be a ground up CoreXY printer, something like the Rook or similar to your 100 printer. Most of my prints would fit on those 2 printers.
Don't make it to complicated, my first 3d printer were also made out of trash, so it will be fine. Im a fan of changing things after you reached a bottleneck and im sure that the stock Anet motors will do a great job for the beginning
Hello Matt. Can we have your thoughts on the ACT 17HS5425 Stepper motor, on paper it is carbon copy of the Wantai-42BYGHW811 and it is available in Europe in reichelt and ebay Germany.
Thanks for sharing your work.
Hi Matt, I'm currently building a 100 & Ive been cross referenceing the sheet with the motors that appear on the BOM for the 100V 1.1 and dont see them (Singasong Nema17 Stepper Motor 17HS4401S 1.5A), where do they fit into the picture, am I missing something?
Hi, what about your's plan to make a video reviewing silent motors? I'm keen to learn about the key parameters to consider when searching for quiet motors.
As I understand it is the drivers that are responsible for quet stepper motor operation like the Trinamic drivers using StealthChop mode.
Hi,
My question would be is tronxy motors any decent SL42STH40-1684A?`and how do they compare?
Good Morning Sir. I’m a new subscriber and new to your channel. I’m interested in your 💯. Can you make one that reuses ender3 parts with the ender3 bed but corexy? And maybe some printed parts but fast and good and cheap? I just got klipper loaded on my ender3 with 3D Touch. But I’m still a noob. Even though I had it since 2018.
Add a video on driver tuning with 5160 and 2209. Not only gantry, but Nema 14 at both 24 and 48. Just curious!
I really would like to but it's very hard for me to reduce such a complex topic to an easy to digest video like that you've watched.
What about voice coil actuators?
Hi Matt. An excellent video. I'm just trying to figure out how to get you SS into Google Docs...
Ohh that would be nice, but I guess you would have to rewrite all the macros the sheet is based on
Anyone have any thoughts what one might look for in a stepper motor for a bmg extruder. I am thinking with the gear ratio a faster motor makes sense.
Hoo really good ! could you add the stepperonline motors 17HE19-2004S & 17HS19-2004S1 to your sheet ?
You could do it on your own, download that sheet and add the Motors to the database sheet tab
@@MattThePrintingNerd yes it's already done I have send the message before check all sheet of your file 😂. Thank you Matt for your reply and for your job on the the100 open-source project 👍
As I think these calculations are given only for one engine for the whole motion system? When building CoreXY do I have to set the gantry mass to 1/2 of the total mass?
Unless your running 4 motors it should be the whole weight. Since in y there's only 1 motor pulling the whole gantry.
@@twanheijkoop6753 What about if I use 4 motors for CoreXY? E.g. For VzBot. How does it need to be counted then?
If I run a corexy printer but with quad motors on the gantry, should I divide the Torque Required by 2? Or should I divide it by 4 as it will be 4 motors trying to overcome the torque?
How do I adjust the parameters for a bedslinger?
Do I just do the weight of the bed or the total mass
In your build you list the stepper motors from Singasong 5Pcs Nema17 Stepper Motor 17HS4401S 1.5A. Just how do they fair compared to the Wantai and the G.Penny?
They are worse, but cheap you get often 5pcs for under $25 as I showed in that video
@@MattThePrintingNerd Thanks for the response, I will probably paid the extra and opt for your wantai recommendation then.
Hello.can i use a 48mm nema17 instead of the 42mm
How do you determine how loud a motor will be?
I don't know right now, I don't have an accustic chamber, so it will be tricky for sure, i thought of doing a frequency curve similar to input shaper measurement and use it's data but the problem is that the motor noise changes based on the load.. I will be a nightmare for sure :-D
hi i am having trouble getting the graph working. its not showing up.
Where can we find your updated motor database?
I've added a link to in into the video description
@@MattThePrintingNerd Thank you!
Does the sheet only work with the desktop version of Excel? Using the free web app all the calculations are broken
Never tried it on mobile or web. It should work as long as you enable macros. It might be that you're not allowed to do it in the web version for security reasons
I want the most accurate motor. Does anyone bother to measure step accuracy? I mean mount a high resolution rotary encoder and measure that the step sizes are equal?
What about stepper online motors? Thanks for sharing.
Search for the datasheet .PDF , I bought 7HS15-1504S. I still need to check the graph in this tool
They have decent nothing special, for example the 17HS16-2004S1is a good one. I have a bunch if OMC motors in the spreadsheet, so maybe you look for yourself
hello i have a junk motor related question
let's say for a secund you have almost unlimited access to motrs that cost less than 1$ each, because they are all used, have no googlable datasheets, because part number don't match anything
(not really no name motors just mineba from the 90's all 108 steps standard looking nema 17 or 23 from recycled branded electronics)
all you can tell is the length of the body, resistance and inductace of coils, from measuring directly
in rare ocasion some of them have amp and voltage rattings writen on the label, but most of them don't
does that spreadsheet have any way calculating anything usable from those measurements , or are we shooting in the dark with those
i made one crazy bed slinger printer using those motors last year, and to be honest i bought some just to use as bearing blocks because they came with theyre own belt gear and after removing armature and coil assembly they were much better choice than bare belt gears with small internal bearings you could buy as parts
but now i have a stash of motors with no info about them, easy access to more and it is just too tempting to just not go with them for another build
is there some way to benchmark or dyno test a motor , even in a crude way and determine a ballpark speed you can achive with those and go from there or is that just a stupid idea to buy used no info (branded) motors
Nero 3d says that that the 100 needs a better name
Curious how the pancakes compare
I did not test pancakes since the main reason for using a pancake is as a extruder stepper and here you want as much torque as possible to stand the back pressure that is created while extruding. I thought of including them in my video but since there are so many videos on the best extruders I thought this might be a redundant, therefore it did not made the cut
Personally I'm surprised that 3D printers are still using stepper motors. Steppers are the kiddies my first robot kit solution you use before you learn how to do it properly with feedback control systems. DC motors with feedback are cheaper, faster, lighter, smaller, and more forgiving (no skipped step layer shifts). Add an IMU to the print head and base for relative position feedback, and Kalman filter merge it with other motor sensors for even more accurate positioning. Steppers are an OK solution when you want to move to a position and stay there, so maybe for the z axis, but they are not great if you want to move fast. IMHO X Y and maybe even extruders would be better served by DC motors driven by feedback control systems.
But maybe the printer firmware also needs fixing so it doesn't assume Steppers.
I wait until I see Vez break some speed limit in 3D printing, and then I buy those. Usually something from LDO motors.
Yeah I mean, when im buying a vacuum cleaner I also look out for the highest review, but for me, as a 3d printing hobbyist it's not enough to pick the best, I want to know why it's the best and in which szenario ;-)
@@MattThePrintingNerd In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. I've seen Vez test some motors that should have been better and weren't. I've also seen him push these numbers way higher than charts would suggest were possible.
But how do you know you actually get what you want? Aren't there a lot of fake motor data sheets out there?
I never had bad experience with "fake" motors. Yes they all advertise them on their product page as the fastest, quietest, coolest.... and so on.. but most of them are honest in terms of their data sheets. So there might be wrong motors for that szenario I want to use them. But I didn't test all of them :-)
@@MattThePrintingNerd That's great to hear. Thank you for your service!
I thought use 2 motors for each axis. Can be an idea. What you think? Viele Grüße!❤