CLIP - Bishop vs Presbyter in 1st Clement

The portion of my recent presentation on 1st Clement's ecclesiology wherein I give my take on the use of episkopos (bishop/overseer) and presbuteros (presbyter) in 1st Clement, with reference to contemporary sources.
Taken from this stream: • Clement the Presbyteri...

[@mitchmclean5435]

Thank you. I've come to the same view about presbyters recently.

[@gambalombo]

Concerning your theory,
Letter 146 by Jerome:
"Of the names presbyter and bishop the first denotes age, the second rank."

[@gamerjj777]

It is wierd that letters of Ignatius have 3 fold system , but 1st clement and didache before him and polycarp after him had a 2 fold system for church leadership.

[@OrthodoxChristianTheology]

Where is polycarp explicitly 2 fold?

[@gamerjj777]

@@OrthodoxChristianTheology Wherefore ye must needs abstain from all these things, being subject to the [note: Elders] priests and deacons, as unto God and Christ.

[@OrthodoxChristianTheology]

@@gamerjj777 ty, years since i read it. It's in chapter 5.

[@gamerjj777]

@@OrthodoxChristianTheology ok
I took from an mobile app. In which it is in chapter 2.

[@OrthodoxChristianTheology]

@@gamerjj777 strange

[@michaelg4919]

What about a shepherd? It seems to me that this is the same as an overseer and then you would have two words used interchangeably and I think it wouldn't matter that much to add a third one. But if the greek wordform used for shepherd is always the verb "to shepherd (e.g. the flock)" then this strengthens your case that overseer is the (only) explicit title for the office.

[@joseortegabeede8233]

What parallel Greek and English text is that?

[@TheOtherPaul]

Michael Holmes, 2007. "The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations", 3rd Edition

[@Justas399]

Why isn't chief bishop mentioned?

[@TheOtherPaul]

Likely because there is no monarchical episcopate and all bishops - even the "chairman" that might have existed - were fundamentally the same.

[@Justas399]

@@TheOtherPaul So this would undermine the claims of the papacy being apostolic?

[@TheOtherPaul]

@@Justas399 yes

[@Justas399]

@@TheOtherPaul then what should we say to Catholics who claim they have a list of popes from Peter to the present?

[@TheOtherPaul]

@@Justas399 that the lists are not as they seem. I believe when the monarchical episcopate became the norm, the lists of the earliest bishops likely included the most prominent of otherwise multiple bishops. Linus and Clement, for example, may have been a sort of "chairman of the board" among multiple bishops, making sure the church authorities functioned smoothly, tho he himself not being "above" the other bishops.

[@Jeronimo_de_Estridao]

Later in the letter Clement explicitly say that the church have a 3 fold order: Levite (deacon), Priest (presbyter), High Priest (bishop) and layman.
He talk about bishops and presbyters, even if talk about bishop and deacon in one place it does not mean that he is implying that presbyter and deacon is the same, that is an abuse of the text

[@Athabrose]

Citation?

[@stephencramm1354]

@@Athabrose This at the end of Chapter 40. But I am curious what in the text leads @HieronymusMachabaeus to believe that this text is doing more than just describing the right order that God instituted among the Jews. I don't believe he does anything in the text to show that we are supposed to map on the modern church leadership to the Jewish leadership.