Decarbonising AMMONIA production. Could a revolutionary new process be the key?
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- čas přidán 5. 02. 2022
- Ammonia is produced in large volumes each year and is in constant use in industries like agriculture, petrochemicals and pharmaceuticals. But it also has great potential as a fuel source, if only a way could be found to produce it without the huge carbon dioxide emissions it currently creates. Now a team at Monash University say they've found an economically viable way to do just that.
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I appreciated this follow-up video. It would be nice to get more of these, following up on other technologies as they approach - or fail to approach - commercialization, to the point where they actually start reducing our carbon footprint in a meaningful way. I am a retired IT guy who has dealt with more than a few "vapor ware" offerings over the years. Hearing about all sorts of new technologies that are going to "solve our climate change problem" might give us an unwarranted rosy picture of the future when we realize that a very low percentage of those technologies actually deliver on their promise or projected timeline. Waiting for a "perfect solution" might be a mistake, when there are lots of "good enough" solutions available right now to start dealing with our pressing problems and upcoming deadlines.
I agree.More Follow up videos would be great.
Very well said!
It's a good sign that they've patented it since that's a very good way of making certain that they have a legitimate process, not a vaporware idea. I just wish the Aussies would build that huge solar farm so they can start making ammonia for fertilizer to eliminate fossil fuels from the process. Thanks, Dave.
@@acmefixer1 Unfortunately our patent offices and people that issue them are not infallible and vaporware gets past her almost as much as other places. But livin in a state that's been pretty much all renewable powered my whole life that's spending up big on expanding our grid and knowing what hydrogen and such is already due to come online 👍 you do not need to do much wishing matey 😉 it's coming.
@@acmefixer1 Singapore - Australia power agreement, have you read about? Solar Farms and massive power cable.
Awesome. I build mostly commercial/industrial solar projects. Producing hydrogen or Ammonia on site has huge potential to pair with solar and wind installations. One of the major hurdles to project development can be finding suitable sites with high electric demand with a suitable location for the installation. Agricultural locations are ideal for ground mounts but the electricity demand is so low that a different business model is needed to send the power to the grid in a community solar or utility solar configuration. By building electric loads with known demand to consume solar power it can unlock a lot of potential installations. I imagine pairing Ammonia production with aquaponics and vertical farming. Agrivoltaics can exist within the solar array and electric tractors can automatically tend to fields while they aren't being managed by regenerative grazing practices and passive permaculture methods
ammonia can be directly injected into the soil as a nitrogen source for agriculture.
Yea, it feels like we have loads of little half solutions and are currently figuring where to put each one so it can be as useful as possible.
Eventually we’ll end up with a grid that is incredibly varied based on region but all adds up to be 100% renewable. That’s my hope at least!
I like your vision :)
I have been looking out for something like this for our farm for using excess solar energy, please let me know if a micro ammonia or hydrogen generating plant is released on the market and I be happy to make good use of it
I worked as an engineer in ammonia and urea plants for many years and eager to know the progress at industrial scale for making ammonia directly skipping one step! Making ammonia via steam reforming is very energy intensive and the conversions in haber bosch even with the most recent haldor topsoe reactors are ~ 15 % with syngas loop pressures as high as ~ 180 atm. This is the future if it works out well... Fingers crossed!
Yes, it does look like a game-changer. But - amazing how we've been content to use so many highly inefficient processes over the years - I would imagine the dirt cheap availability of fossil fuels is part of this (pun intended...)
Followups are extremely interesting, especially after a few years, when you can really see how ideas worked out. Sometime things died. Sometimes everyone knows they succeeded. The more interesting ones are those that succeeded, became an everyday part of our lives, and we didn't even notice. So much goes on behind the scenes, where we are largely unaware of how our goods and services are produced
Agreed. It’s also interesting when one encounters specific difficulties causing a slight pivot. So like you say, it becomes part of our daily lives, but we don’t know it.
I an operator at an Oil Refinery. One of my units is a Hydrogen Reformer from Natural gas. The CO2 is sent out by Pipeline for use in food production, mostly Pop.
This process uses a LOT of energy.
One of my other units is a Hydrobon Platformer. That turns Naphtha into Platformate with H2 as excess "off gas", to be used in another process. Nothing is wasted!
I grew up in the shadow of the industry and have lived near refineries, and have a question; if "everything is captured and used, then why does everything for miles around a refinery have the "smell of money". The Oil Barons who started that phrase admitted that there was some, very perceptible leakage when they did that. There has been huge waste and land and property dissolution from oil and gas operations- in America as well as all over the world.
You are from the refinery side, but let me ask a question from the drilling side; why are all wells REQUIRED to have a large diameter casing around the well bore for the first 2000'? I'll save you looking it up- it's because the drilling process risks contaminating the fresh, clean, often potable water that lies above that 2000 foot mark. The damage is so pernicious, this quarter million dollar "soda straw protector" is REQUIRED. Big Oil has from it's inception, chosen the fastest, cheapest methods to develop, produce and ship this stuff- and run it through plants that often leaked and belched tons of contaminants per hour, to peddle it onward through a system that had losses into the atmosphere at every step of the way. Follow one of the larger pipelines out of your refinery; it will likely go to a port to be loaded onto ships, it could be marine bunker oil (nasty stuff) to run the ship or some fraction of the crude to be shipped or even finished products like gasoline. All of those pipelines do things like travel underground, sometimes under rivers, few are double walled and most will at some time leak a little to a lot, maybe into a waterway that several communities get their drinking water from.
But you are talking about just what you think you can see from the top of a cracking tower. Is there anyone in your community being paid just to watch the emissions outputs of your little "paradise in steel"? The refineries aren't clean, never have been, your industry has been driven by little but naked greed for 150 odd years- by the coal barons who became the first oil barons. Look into just who and what JD Rockefeller was- before he was "Mr. Standard Oil" he was "Mr. Standard Coal". Btw, at your refinery, have you ever processed some of the Athabasca Tar Sands oil from Canada or from the heavy oil from Venezuela? Very nasty and leaves a whole lot of "not good" that refineries already don't want to properly dispose of- it seems to get into their profit and loss statement.
In closing, I would recommend you read Daniel Yergin's "The Prize"; it's about the history of the international oil bizz from just after the American Civil War to about 1980. It tells of some great successes and it tells of some disasters it caused that are still rolling through the world stage. FR
@@fredericrike5974 I'd like to take some time and answer you as best i can. Your long reply deserves it.
I'm a work boot hard hat wearing lead shift operator, so with the large business decisions we're given no info due to strict insider trading laws. We're usually the last to know about anything.
I can only say from my workplace, that "smell of money" is taken very seriously by management and by us. My little "paradise in steel" is monitored by several agencies. And they have TEETH. We operators can be held personally and financially responsible if we are negligent. I think there is, for sure, lots that don't take that seriously but should. And that's unfortunate.
Fastest and cheapest is what every industry around the world strives to achieve. Not just the Oil and Gas industry. That's how business works. That can easily be fixed with legislation. You can blame the gov for that.
And you're right, it was a very dirty industry as a whole. It's way way way better the it was before, even in my time. So is Lithium mining, shipping, aerospace, I Phone manufacturing, all of it to one extent or another. Do you like electricity? I do. We couldn't survive as a species without it. Next time you charge you phone, cook your dinner, or take a hot shower look in the mirror and thank ME, and those like ME for your very survival. If all the people like me who RUN THIS COUNTRY decided to quit the people bitching and complaining would be dead in a month.
My units don't run the heavier stuff. But i can tell you the the "not good" ends up as road asphalt, roofing shingles, greases and important products like that. As i said, it all gets used one way or another.
And yes actually, i would like to read that book.
One can always learn something new!
@@jimmyjimjim3054 Just want to say something about "Do you like electricity? I do. We couldn't survive as a species without it." Our species has been using electricity for what, lets say, I'll be generous, 150 years. our species has been around in one form or another for approximately 2 million years. So, I think we could live without it! The richer ones of us and I'm not referring to the 1 percenters or even the 10 percenters, but we who have a lifestyle that requires it. Would find it a lot harder to get by. Food, water, heat and cooling. Just a thought. Cheers Jim
@@jimmyjimjim3054 The industry is still far from clean and owns half or more of the Texas Lege. Here in Texas, oil is regulated about as much as it allows. And I can still smell Pasadena , Texas from miles away. And FWIW, some 10-15% of that bbl of heavy crude isn't useful added to the the very difficult pile of "not good" asphalt is when it's removed from road surfaces and parking lots. My end of the industry was growing up in a moving house hold of a mid level to very high mid level managing engineer- different viewpoint, for sure.
Btw, my thanks for "all the good things" your industry has done will require you to take up some of the blame for a bunch of those smelly bits your negligent regulators and cheap employers afflict hundreds of thousands of Americans with daily.
As to "how hard and diligently" the oil industry works to be clean, I'll give it , in some quarters, but that is far from universal or a regular thing; the BP rig that spilled and burned in 2010 in the outflow of the Mississippi River did so because Halliburton ignored the Barriers Operation Safety Program that was developed after the Eko Fisk disaster in the North Sea- IGNORED IT! Macondo should have been shut down many days before that accident- but wasn't to save a few stock holders from paying the million dollar a day operating costs while they were shut down- there was broken positioning gear needful to kee the semi submersible located close enough over the sub sea completion to not bend or king the down pipe, hydraulics on the subsea completion were crashed into by an ROV Halliburton had hired to do a mandatory inspection- no attempt was made to try and cycle the shears or the closures. There is more- a lot more; the decisions weren't made by people at your pay grade, but much higher- and people at your pay grade were out on that rig in harms way when it all went up- several died. There are thousands of old, uncapped, abandoned wells all over places where America has prospected for aoil- and thought there are laws about it, if you sell the trash left enough times, it becomes impossible to reach out and slap the cheap bastards that do this crap. Jim, I have worked in the refineries, offshore, on service vessels and even been a teaching assistant for courses taught for companies wanting to improve employee education or outlook prior to being made foremen and higher. I've also had the privilege of meeting people from the Arabian Peninsula and other "oil country". Although OPEC exists to prevent the international oil companies from robbing the ME like they did till 1966, companies like Saudi Aramco are as racist and unapologetic about mistreating their employees as the Robber Barons were.
In closing, JJJ, your industry had a very self centered and blind outlook about any harm it has done for over a hundred years- only realistic threat of shutting them down has got this far- and they still want to get leases when the companies are sitting on millions of acres of leases they have but haven't the capital or time to work but they want to buy new ones, they have to be sued when thousands of bbl of oil leak out into a swamp in Louisiana those self same companies PROMISED TO PROTECT. Keep your head down, and find a polite way to quit apologizing for people who would and will fire you if it looks beneficial to them- reason not important. FR
@@johnsamsungs5561 I’m sure the last few million of us that remain after global civilization as we know it collapses will live just fine. It would be relatively primitive and an incredibly difficult, brutal and nasty transition. The world as a whole whole likely to better without any humans depending on how u define better. Personally I prefer to keep electricity and work to reduce the impact on the planet as fast as possible.
I want to complement Just Have A Think. This is the absolute best channel for looking at realistic and implementable ways for the world to end fossil fuel use without reverting back to the stone age. I also appreciate the positive focus as opposed to hammering people over the head with "end of the world" all of the time. I am not a huge fan of most "all industrial development is evil" CZcams channels which seem to be big on telling people how horrible they are for using fossil fuels but never seem to offer realistic alternatives (solar and wind, while important, are intermittent and not suitable for powering things like huge container ships).
I totally support moving to clean, renewable power, not because I am some sort of Greeny (I am actually a Conservative), but because it is the right thing to do. Only an idiot pollutes the only planet we have. Despite that, I am also not interested in going back to pre-industrial technology. I still want retain modern advances, but we need to work out how to do that and still save the planet. Thank you for sharing all the brilliant work that is being done around the world to put an end to unsustainable (and finite) fossil fuel usage.
Interesting comment - I liked it. Now - I would take issue with your characterizing some commentary as “ end of the world” hammering. I very rarely see that. I do see almost all commentary being like JHAThink; ie. we have a problem, it’s difficult, we need to work at solutions, and we need everybody on it. Almost all videos, documentaries, papers that I see start with the preamble: Energy is what brings us advancement and civilization. We need lots of it, and will need massive amounts MORE going forward. As with everything, there are downsides, or trade offs. It makes sense to think of better methods of energy production. And if you watch the likes of Tony Seba, and others, it makes a lot of money too, to solve these problems. Golden opportunities.
Interesting - I’ve watched loads & loads of Renewable docs. Never once - not even once- have I ever heard anyone ever recommend going back to the Stone Age, let alone even back to the 60’s, or the previous century. They do however have a common thread : predicting an unleashing of the most incredible society ever in history. Due to vast amounts of abundant energy. Why - because it will be Renewable.
When we shed the natural constraints of our heavy extractive energy processes, then make the extra investment in a renewable grid architecture - not easy, I’ll grant that for sure - but we are in for an absolute renaissance of abundance. Explosion of technologies, wealth, careers, new processes and products. I could highly recommend also visiting Rethink Energy - Tony Seba to get a feel for it. [ Sorry, I hope that’s not offside to come on JHAThink, and recommend another platform, but most here, have likely been there too. ]
Could it be the exposure you are getting ? I know I have some family who feel as you do. But then I discover they listen to talk radio, and get input fed through Think Tanks that are funded by entrenched incumbents. They often feed a doom & gloom outlook : “If you move away from fossil fuels, you’re are going to Freeze, in the Dark.”
Whereas, if we get this right, the absolute Cambrian explosion of demand for affordable goods & services BECAUSE of cheap renewable energy will usher in an entirely new age. I find it exciting. Not going to happen on its own of course - we will have to make some decisions. But the rewards for re-wiring our economy are going to be staggering.
Some would describe it as an entirely new humanity - due to absolute abundance of energy. Typically, when you invest in renewable infrastructure, you have larger sunk costs, but when the fuel is free, the MARGINAL costs of energy, eg; electricity trend to zero. Thus - the explosion.
But for now - we are stuck with the heavy industrial model ( which by the way, has been fantastic for ~150 years bringing us out of drudgery.) So we will still have to conserve, restrict, economize, reduce, ration, and meter our consumption.
So - it’s interesting when you say “ I am actually a conservative.”
I shouldn’t over-read anything there, but if I may, the tone would suggest that you’re implying that it sounds funny.
As in, “ I know I’m not supposed to say this, and you may find it kinda weird, but ….”
My family starts to squirm a bit when someone suggests conserving, fuel, land, resources, ecosystems, habitat, forests,etc.
I have mentioned to my family on several occasions: “ It’s kinda weird that you’re a conservative, but you don’t like conserving.”
@@SquareRootOfMinus1 Long comment but covers a lot. Your last sentence is exactly my experience when dealing with friends who are politically conservatives and I have come to the same thought conclusion as in your quotes. Sadly I find that even my politically Liberal friends and family are very similar. There is a significant resistance to change and an even more significant resistance to opening the mind to options that could/will improve all our lives....the "change" and FUD that they will somehow be collateral damage in the transition is what will lead to our collective demise.
Since i am here...I find it ironic that Russia is holding all the cards with regard to the Ukraine since any move on the part of NATO to sanction Russia will result in shutting off natural gas to much of Europe. Europe, and in particular Germany, have made themselves extremely vulnerable through their dependence on this green house gas. Will we ever learn!?
@@richardlangley90 Concerning your last sentence: If "we" refers to the electorate, then I dare to declare the answer is a sort of "no", because since the beginning of the industrial revolution, the change occurs faster then the main part of the electorate learns. And this is also getting worse because we're continuously allowing our populations to get older and older.
@@richardlangley90 Nat Gas from Russia to Europe. You make an excellent point.
It’s almost as if Russia manipulated the price of gas lower over the years, until they had contracts with much of Europe all signed, and supply lines built, until they had a continent dependent on one particular substance. Hmmmm…. Now - once you become the sole supplier, you can do as you like. Crank up the price. Throttle supply. Geopolitical Leverage in war games.
I have always felt it would be better if all peoples, or countries, or regions had access to their own energy supplies. Self-sovereign.
Too bad we couldn’t find one - just one - source of energy that supplied all geographies, all peoples, free from manipulation, cartels, market disruptions, and artificial economic distortions.
Oh yeah …. The Sun !
Great to hear you are a Conservative with a pragmatic realisation that we need to address the climate and ecological emergency. Even from a selfish point of view it makes sense. Now to get the high-ups (and this applies to Labour as much to the Conservatives) to actually act with the urgency required. Not words, not just numbers in budgets, actual action on the ground, in our hand, right now!
I'm green, but I frown upon folks who think reverting to a pre-industrial lifestyle would be a good idea. We need high tech so we can have high tech medicine - but of course, you can't have high-tech medicine without a high-tech society. These folks who want to live free on the land - what happens when they get appendicitis...
The ability to use something like this for efficient hydrogen storage would be Huge!
It would, but I still think too many people want one solution which solves every problem. I’m starting to wonder if we’re headed for a world where solar/wind powers residential activities, and a whole mess of different battery systems store that power for when solar/wind production goes too low.
Meanwhile, the excess of the excess gets turned into green hydrogen or ammonia which powers most of the industrial sector when their solar/wind can’t meet their demand.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet That is what we need, many overlapping solutions.I live in a solar/wind residence--some of this is already happening!
Not just storage, but transport. This would make it much more cost effective to produce hydrogen in Australia in the form of ammonia, and export it.
@@theharper1 Of course, storage and transport are really one and the same problem--and that problem comes from the inability to efficiently compress hydrogen and the lack of an affordable hydrogen sponge (the known hydrogen sponge is platinum...not exactly an affordable material to make a gas tank out of!)
But why are they using ammonia, and not Ammonium? That has an extra hydrogen atom.
_"tetra-ethyl"_ actually helped out a lot.
It instantly gave me the shape of the molecule, and visual picture. *Thank You* for continuing to provide detailed discussions. Don't go changin'.
Dave, I am a retired organic chemist and emeritus professor. I am intrigued by the potential of changing the electrolyte in the above ammonia synthesis to an ionic liquid phosphonium salt. Some of these materials have quite low melting points and might be an ideal solvent and reactant for enhancing the reaction rate of ammonia synthesis. By using the reactant as the solvent much higher concentrations would result and it is possible that one could also useHigher temperatures in the reaction cell. In any case it would be interesting experiment. Best wishes Phil Fuchs.
I suggest you contact the team at Monash university. They may be better able to make use of your suggestion 👍
look at arena.gov.au/assets/2021/03/csiro-hydrogen-to-ammonia-july-2020.pdf Might be of use to you
Dave, thank you so much for another one of your well researched and engrossing dives into science. I so look forward to your episodes. Warm regards and good health, from bonnie Scotland 👍😊
I'm the mayor of a small town in a small country on the Southwestern Coast of Africa, Lüderitz ,Namibia. Our town is posed to become one of the largest Green Hydrogen projects on the continent and with all the ongoing planning and overwhelming amount of noise out there, your videos are a great educational tool which I enjoy. Thanks for shining a light on these issues.Its such a new industry to us and there are so many things to consider while we plan and argue for or against these industrial developments and the sacrifices these opportunities come with. I'll keep an eye for more follow-ups on the topic and industry.
Awesome, thank you! Great to see they are making real progress!
Thank you for the follow up videos. Progress is what matters. Too many projects start off as "Groundbreaking" but when you check up on them in a year, they are no where.
That follow up review is a great idea, it can even be presented as JHT prices of 2021 to highlight advances in order of relevance 👏
I'm currently working on a degree project of which the goal is to analyze alternative aviation fuels such as SAFs and Hydrogen. As in my research, ammonia is indeed increasingly seen as a potential Hydrogen Carrier for the aviation and energy industry. Glad to see more in depth information here. Thank you.
Also ammonia is lighter than air and can provide lift (this is a joke, if you do not understand)
If aviation uses NH3 for fuel isn't the production of NOx as pollution absolutely disastrous.
@@idjles no they want to use green hydrogen, but in order to facilitate transportation, they are considering binding hydrogen with ammonia, since ammonia is more easily transported and well known.
@@TWCHHK how will the ammonia be used? Will it be converted back to hydrogen before loading onto the plane?
@@adrianthoroughgood1191 yes that's the idea. And obviously, all the sources of energy must be supplied by renewables.
Fantastic! Please do more follow-ups on initial technologies. Nice to know how some of these "Pie In The Sky" potential mega payoffs are doing. As always, love the content.
I, like many others I am sure, appreciate your research and production. I do not (cannot) want to do the research. Thank you.
SMR and SMR they're a "completely different kettle of fish" , quite amusing given the nuclear one is basically a ketle and a steam generator :)
and fish makes tons of ammonia!!
;)
Another excellent video, clearly explained for all. Ammonia as an energy storage medium/fuel clearly has a future, once it is synthesised with renewable tech.
I cannot understand why vast countries with abundant exposure to solar energy are still sticking to their fossil guns.
The answer is simple in the case of Australia. The country has vast fossil fuel exports giving that industry an excessive lobbying advantage.
As sad as it is to say, I think it’s cause the fossil fuel companies decide that they can make more money in the short term by not changing and they push the government and citizens to agree with them.
It feels like too many of our leaders are currently taking the stance of “this won’t harm me personally so I don’t care.”
@@christopherfry2844 And yet there are movements even in Australia towards production of green hydrogen, especially for use in the mining industry.
@@simongross3122 Agreed. It makes you wonder if the good guys can push the transition fast enough for our collective survival.
@@richardlangley90 Glad you said "our" survival. I'm not at all worried for the planet; I'm worried for our own species.
Love the update. Many thanks for this! 😃
Thank you for this video! It's interesting to return to a technology you've previously covered and see what the current state of progress is. I particularly enjoyed following your animation of the process itself. Well described, and so elegant. Surely a simple electrochemical reaction is more efficient than a massive, clunky industrial one filled with pipes and tanks?
Apparently not, if the rate of ammonia production is still an order of magnitude smaller than Haber-Bosch. I guess that's economies of scale in action. But if this new method of production is so much simpler and cheaper, surely it can be scaled up to industrial size for less expense? It would require more production units, but those units would be less expensive to run. I don't know, maybe there's hope the numbers will add up.
Their idea of a locally based energy system would certainly be revolutionary. You'd still need industrial quantities of electricity and water, but if it would (as you said) do away with the massive pipeline and tank infrastructure that currently transports energy carriers to us... That would eliminate a couple of industries outright.
Monash graduate water engineer here living in France. Great to see a follow up
Ammonia for transportation seems rather crazy since it is a suffocating and disabling gas. The Haber process works with any source of hydrogen, obviously, and methane is used because it is cheap and provides the energy for the operation. The main advantage of the alternatives would be in the production of fertilizers and explosives without the use of carbon fuels. Ammonia for transportation will work until there is an accident.
Ammonia is created and transported in large volumes safely every day. There a huge infrastructure in place for shipping and piping the stuff.
@@DanielASchaeffer - TS was referring to the use of ammonia as fuel for transportation, not in the transportation of ammonia itself. Gasoline is a preferred fuel due to its stability at room temp and pressure. Pure liquid ammonia boils at -33C (-28F). As a fuel for mass, public use, it's a very dangerous product.
@@valkyriefrost5301 But is the video suggesting that it be used as a fuel? I thought it was just to be used as a means of transporting hydrogen.
@@danyoutube7491 No it would be used as a fuel. Not in cars or even trucks, but for ships and airplanes.
@@danyoutube7491 - Dave (JHaT) mentions many uses of ammonia in the video, one of which is it's potential use as a transportation fuel (like air travel). I could be wrong, but I believe Tom (OP) was talking about ammonia being use for transportation (like air travel). A jet fuel spill is a bad and dangerous thing. An ammonia spill of the same magnitude would be extremely dangerous as it's a highly toxic gas that can kill without having to be ignited.
Isn't ammonia created naturally by animals? I could swear that in environmental studies class they said that is part of the reason why there's so much algae growing in our lakes.
Most of the algal blooms in lakes and other surfaces waters are due runoff of fertilizers from lawns and farms, animal waste runoff from feedlots, or raw or improperly treated sewage discharges. It is the generally high nitrogen and phosphorus content in the runoff that stimulates runaway algal growth. The nitrogen is mostly in the form of urea or ammonium salts.
Appreciate this follow up video
You should do something on H2 Carriers in general. Also would be neat to show historical commercial efforts (NECAR in 2000s, etc)
Another development you should check out is a Canadian company , who has the IP, to make ammonia at 45c and standard air pressure . All that needed is air and water. They are currently building 20 prototypes to be tested in different industries. I believe they if it works will be a massive step forward in this area. Happy to supply company name if requested.
I love this channel cause he's a proper optimist and a proper skeptic
Fantastic, thank you for this!
If distributed ammonia production can become a thing then I can see farm groups wanting their own installations. They could produce their own fertilizer with it and have it power their own farm equipment.
Yea, moving to green fertilizer options would be huge for reducing our global emissions. I was incredibly motivated by this video!
Greatly appreciated!
Great news!! Staying hopeful for this development
I remember when I was a kid we had a bottle of ammonia in the cupboard under the kitchen sink. It could be bought freely from the local hardware store. I think it was used as a cleaning product/disinfectant, but I'm not sure.
Yep. That's ammonia dissolved in water, forming ammonium hydroxide (NH₃ + H₂O ⟶ NH₄OH). It's not pure ("anhydrous") ammonia, which is a gas at room temperature. For serious uses you need the gas, which you can condense to a liquid at -33°C, which is cold but not _that_ cold.
Thanks Dave for the bo peep battery update! I sure hope this new method works, not only is the Haber-Bosch process old, but our infrastructure using this process to produce ammonia is getting a bit creaky as well. As a fuel it sounds good, something I hadn't heard of before you mentioned it, so thanks for the possible solution to the aviation fuel dilemma. Will this mean cleaner smelling airports? 🌞🐑 🐑 🐑
Hydrogen is hardly energy dense at something like 325 BTU's per cubic foot. Compare that to Natural Gas at 1,000 BTU's per cubic foot. We will have to use almost three times more Hydorgen to do the same effective work. All we seem to be doing is adding process loss upon process loss with every transition ... or is my thinking wrong?
The problem with methane is that it produces carbon dioxide when it burns. If you care about that sort of thing, you either have to capture all of the CO₂, or produce the methane from carbon that is already in the carbon cycle. It does not appear either of these is practical at the moment. Likewise for other common fuels like Jet-A.
Hydrogen doesn't involve carbon at all. Obviously the energy to produce hydrogen gas had to come from somewhere, but the idea is to produce it using renewable energy. However, hydrogen has the energy density problem that you note. It has excellent specific energy (energy per unit mass) but very poor energy density unless you compress it within an inch of its life, or liquefy it, both of which cost a lot of energy.
Ammonia, the subject of this video, is a middle ground. Its specific energy is only ⅙ that of hydrogen gas, but if you liquefy it (at -33°C, which is cold but not _that_ cold), energy density is 6.7 times that of hydrogen gas. That's still only ⅓ the energy density of Jet-A, but one hopes it will be a great deal easier to produce at scale than, say, biodiesel.
Superb as always.
Hello. I'm only a musician, but hugely enjoy your "Just have a think series. The topics are very interesting and you explain all the relevant aspects with a wonderful balance of clarity, depth and humor. Thank you so much. Please keep them coming. Best wishes, Gavin Edwards
Gavin, you aren't "only a musician". You're a musician! And that is awesome. -a technogeek who appreciates the importance of art.
Hey, there's nothing "only" about being a a musician
Great video as always.
Thank you for your informative and highly professional presentations.
Nice video Dave. Thank you. Always a great start to a Sunday. Pancakes and a JHAT video to start us off on a positive note.
I didn't even noticed that i Noticed.
How did I noticed this...
It is like it never passed my way..
THIS IS AWESOME !
Amazing process!
Great idea to do follow up!
Great video thanks!
The oil companies trousered huge sums to set up carbon capture plants. Their plants have managed to emit more carbon than they captured! More money needed.
I think I know the headlines that you’re referring to and they don’t exactly word it correctly. They make it sound like the Carbon Capture system is creating more carbon than it’s capturing but it’s moreso that it’s capturing less than 50%.
Don’t get me wrong, I also want us to completely break away from fossil fuels rather than thinking that putting carbon capture on everything solves our problems! I just worry that wording it incorrectly will make people want to take the current carbon capture systems away which will cause our emissions to rise not fall.
Nice video.
Thanks very much for posting !!!
Excellently described 👌
This is exactly the type of endeavor that needs to be prioritized and assisted.
Great video, i dont think this a replacement for lithium ion battery tech, but its interesting technology. it might keep more conventionally powered things going and possibly fertilize our fields.
It's not intended to replace Li-ion batteries. It's a method for making NH3 that happens to use Li-ion tech.
Thank you, I was just debating this
Please look up the bromine catalyst Ispra (named after the Italian city where a pilot plant was made) process and tell us what you think? Supposedly it cleans flue gases like a scrubber and converts sulfur and nitrogen compounds into industrial commodities while producing merchant quantities of hydrogen. I am asking because I couldn't sort it out.
Why the hell do we want carbon free. Carbon is the building block of live, without carbon without life. It's so sad that scientific minded people are indoctrinated by propaganda.
@@seanleith5312 - You're either a troll or just ignorant of ecology. Please educate yourself.
@@seanleith5312 Where are you form? We are talking about green house gases.
@@janami-dharmam Often times a little knowledge is more dangerous than complete ignorance. The other pithy saying that comes to mind is " don't blabber BS and folks won't tell you you are full of BS", it went something like that, but got the point; do you Sean? FR
@@janami-dharmam I know you are talking about green house gases, that's where the indoctrination you are in. 1. CO2 is a trace gas. it doesn't cause anything. 2. There is zero evidence CO2 increases temperature.3. CO2 as a greenhouse gas is because CO2 is plant food, not because it makes it warmer. Those people talk about something they have zero knowledge of.
I watch this channel for over a year and i really don't understand why we don't see all those great inventions coming to market when the world really needs it now. Is it a patent thing, is it a bringing to market thing. Why are all these great innovations taking so long
A mix probably. Some inventions are too complex to scale, others get bought by big companies, but mostly it takes time to replace existing infrastructure. For example the Netherlands started rebuilding their roads and streets to make them better for bikes and pedestrians. This is still ongoing, since the 80s. Maybe we should grab our pikes and sticks and make a rattle?! Probably a bad idea though ^^
Scale up is probably the issue. One thing is to have a small reactor running, with a few grams of complicated catalyst and cathode/anode materials. But to scale up, apart from scale up issues of the ammonia production process itself, you also need to have a large scale production of the catalysts and anode/cathode materials in place. Making a few gram of catalyst in the lab is quite different from a production in a kg or ton scale, which probably is needed. Furthermore, as these technologies are completely new, all sourcing and logistics systems have to be established from scratch, which is also time consuming.
In short, a year is way too short to expect any tech to go from promising testing/prototype stages to being developed/invested in/approved by governments and established as a significant industrial reality.
Because there i nothing great about any of this garbage. The war on carbon and forcing the world on to wind and solar will result in poverty and death for billions of people. especially hard hit will be ones already suffering in poverty.
Thank you so much
Nice graphics :) good episode
Very interesting. You can also electrolytically convert ammonia into nitrates relatively easily, though perhaps just ammonium sulfate would be good enough for nitrogenating soil.
I can see it now. Fertiliser made at the farm from nothing but solar panels. Love it. The fossil fuel industry are gonna hate it. Keep us posted. Could be worth buying a few shares if there’s a startup.
Will it produce green fertilizers for the agriculture sector? For example, ammonium nitrate or ammonium phosphate are most popular these days but plain old vanilla ammonia can be injected directly in the soil. Phosphate can be added as finely ground phosphate rock powder. That will be real green!
I really hope it does. If we could break the fertilizer industry away from the fossil fuel industry then that could be huge for our long term emissions!
In California, ammonia is often bubbled into irrigation water where it forms ammonium hydroxide. It is common to see trucks delivering large round ball-shaped trailer tanks of liquid ammonia to farms, or to see permanent ammonia tank installations.
Commenting to support David.
Love your channel, the quality of the comments below is far above my lowly status, but what are the carbon emmisions from producing the tetraethylphosphonium cation? And how long does it last, and how is it disposed of after, is it a pollutant, and what are the carbon emissions from the copper and the solvent and how are they disposed of? This new chemistry is brilliant, but raises many questions. Thanks
A really great presentation on truly exciting tech. Can you perhaps take the program to the next step - dissociation and harvesting of the hydrogen. Is this schema thought of for use in situ for consumption, or transport to tank farm for the application? (Just being “funny,” but water transports H, too ..Oh!). As always, great ‘tube!
Very good video! But why did you put a clip of an NMR automated sample loader while talking about scalable systems around 8:35 ? ;)
Sounds good.
And anytime you can make something you need right where you need it the better.
That is one of the things that needs to happen a lot.
Decentralization of as many things as possible.
Agreed. We really went off the deep end in the 80’s trying to manufacture everything where we had the lowest labor costs possible.
That was a mistake and led to a lot of the issues that we’re experiencing now. It’ll be good to see things become decentralized again.
Thank you
Wonderful video that simplified heavy contents
I am sure production of ammonia via some biological process could achieve the required target, scale in a far more efficient and cost effective manner.
2:15 SMR can also refer to Shingled Magnetic Recording a hard disk recording technology
thanks!
If we don’t squander our opportunity to save the world, scientific innovation will be a key to the solutions needed. It is through science that I find hope.
Yes , just the same as “ NICOLA TESLA “” the B B - jp morgs stopped it dead in its track bk early 1902 - Free Electricity for a 25 mile radius with adjacent ones overlapping another 25 mile radius. Free for all in pursuit of money for rich few!!
I really hope that several of the teams trying to decarbonise ammonia will manage to scale up to industrial levels. I am intrigued by the fact the system could be viable at a smaller scale too, so that it might become even an interesting form of long term energy storage…
A friend of mine wrote his master thesis on ammonia as marine fuel, and one of the things I found intriguing was that to remove NOx from the exhaust gas you need what? Ammonia!
NH3 or Ammonia is also one of the best cooling fluid (seconded only by water that unfortunately freezes and expand as ice) for everything that need freezing and has one of the lowest GWP when used. With a decarbonised production method, it could become a top tier choice to reduce carbon emissions in the whole "carbon cycle", so to speak. :) Nice video and nice followup, as always.
@Han Boetes Just be sure to carry an extra water tank to neutralise the ammonia if you have a leak :) .
As a retired ChE, I love these videos. Does anyone else think his logo is reminiscent of Mystery Science Theater 3000? Push the button, Frank.
Hiya! I love your work. Would you be interested in doing a thing about the atmospheric concentrations of methane reaching 1900 ppb on average and ~2300 ppb over and around the arctic? For reference, the average concentrations of methane in the atmosphere hovered around 400-800 ppb from 600 000 BC to 1800 AD.
Have you heard about stripping energy from urea by a step-down process eventually getting to fully oxidized N (NO3)? There are apparently energy thresholds to overcome along the way but NH3 to NO3 contains significant energy. I have always liked this idea because it takes a waste product and converts it to a fertilizer while yielding electricity.
Nice ideas
Other clip talked on using "BIS (TRI-FLUORO-METHYL-SULFONYL) IMIDE" with Fordiac (electron) efficiency=98.5% @ 20 barg.. (catalyst?) For NH3 mass-production.
Compared to the "120 year-old" Haber-Bosch process is less than 40% @200+ barg.
very much appreciated. Is ammonia a possible carrier for aviation fuels? That would alleviate one of my big gilts. long distant travel. Thanks again, Mark
I was just wondering what the benefit of ammonia is compared to using chicken manure? The thing is since the egg is such a superior source of protein with the bioavailability of it’s amino acids plus the recent studies of a lack in cognitive decline of regular egg eaters. I know the greenest of my farming adventures were always fabulous be the crop edibles or smokable and it worked the first year the ground was turned, I always added a bit of agricultural lime to the mix. Have been having piss poor luck without it making my own compost and buying organic soils. I am in the sand of central Florida and I do realize it takes a little bit for the organic to become available to plants by becoming inorganic. Now the thing is hydroponics should just incorporate fish they would feed the plants which in turn would clean the water for the fish. I mention all this from reading about the costs to the big chicken producers to be rid of what was being called toxic waste. Is it all a stupid cycle of money for what we don’t need and that pollutes to? I mean is burned trees not the same as potash? Just seems to me to be a totally unnecessary endeavor unless we as a society just have to employ chemical & ammonia & petroleum based fertilizer producers. Or am I missing something special with ammonia and petroleum?
I've been interested in ammonia as an alternative to the hydrogen fuel source for a few years now. Thank you for following up. I often wonder why there isn't a larger push to ammonia when it seems like such a much better option compared to hydrogen. Maybe these production solutions will help push it ahead of hydrogen.
Awesome - but do you know why they use ammonia, and not Ammonium? That has an extra hydrogen atom.
Excellent video again
Thanks
When asking for comment you sounded overly concerned
Never let the fossil flamers get to you
Cheers
Very interesting
Slight nitpick, at 3:50, hydrogen doesn't corrode, it embrittles, which is very dangerous for anything trying to contain it.
I've heard there was a collaboration between Japan and New Zealand
In regards two hydrogen production on a commercial scale.
I'd like to know what progress they're making.
This is fantastic news, as a farmer who will spend approximately €500/acre, $550/acre or 2.5 times that per hectare this year on nitrogen to produce food, I have been looking for ways of producing nitrogen from solar in order to utilize 100% of the energy produced by solar panels. If this works, I and millions of farmers around the World would have the ability to create our own nitrogen which would have many many benefits including reduced costs, import substitution, reduced carbon, fertiliser and food security and reduced dependence on Russia for nitrogen fertiliser.
It’s interesting to compare the carbon footprint or emission levels for Brown, Blue and Green hydrogen.
Marketing plays a big role in the choice of colours used here.
Behind the colours are hidden costs and inefficiencies. Conversion losses for examples aren’t highlighted in these energy alternatives.
You can make hydrogen from a completely renewable energy source such as solar, tidal or wind and call it Green Hydrogen but the conversion loss could be as high as 30%. Add processing losses and costs and the overall efficiency drops significantly. But this about storage and transport as well. Profits
Certainly there are a number of players in the field, but please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that it is the Canadian company “Hydrofuel Canada Inc.” that have a green patented process for producing Amonia, and also have stated they can produce Ammonia at the cost of 30cents per gallon! They are, from my understanding much further along the road than the Australians! I look forward to the time we can start pumping ammonia into our tanks in place of Petrol & Deisel! This will be a much better solution than building electric cars, that it has been discovered are far from a green alternative the the internal combustion engine, when you change the fuel to ammonia!
well there ya go; among the various things that this channel has enlightened me with is the term " A shed load" at 2:33
Evidently in England they use the term " a shed load" to denote a LOT of something (or perhaps is it only used when in polite company?)
In America we use the very similar sounding term " a shit load".
Now I gotta go study the etymology of both terms to see which came first!
Fuelpositive is a company in Toronto. Has a patent on making green ammonia right now check it out
I understand the benefits of this new technology. However, it seems that we are chasing a complex solution for some kind of natural process. Fish aquaculture requires dealing with ammonia poisoning... My 2 cents is that we should better embrace an integrated artificial mini ecosystem all in one location with agrivoltaic infrastructure with mycelium (food, fertilizer, packaging), crickets (proteins, fish food), fish (ammonia for plants, food), hydroponic culture. The whole facility would have to be all Integrated and the challenge would to balance the system with the right amount of everything to make to sustainable.
Dealing with ammonia and generating tons every day is a different matter.
How many fish do you need to generate tons of ammonia in a timely manner?
Plus you need to separate the very dilute ammonia from the water. Plants are ok using that ammonia, but if you just need ammonia and not plants, that's not straightforward
The amount of ammonia that causes problems in fish is much smaller than the industrial quantities required for chemical synthesis. But for food production, biological systems that make and use their own ammonia are ideal, and more sustainable and environmentally friendly than adding it to the soil via chemical fertilizers.
Bring on energy superabundance!
This looks like a great wat to generate hydrogen in a readily transportable form. Let's hope it can be scaled efficiently!
Good 'old Aussie tech!
I think small, green & distributed ammonia for green houses, farms etc. are going to be a game-changer for the need for fertilizer
I manage a property that is pretty much surrounded by the Monash Campus that seems to be continually expanding and was lucky enough for my Son to go to the John Monash Science School, which is located on the edge of the Monash Campus. The whole area is becoming a STEM precinct (including one of only 3 synchrotrons in the southern hemisphere) so I'm not surprised that they are making break throughs. While our Federal Government takes a stone age approach to energy, at least our state government is heading the right direction.
seeing the known reaction of lithium with nitrogen gas, before this vid, I thought it could be used as a potential alternate industrial route to ammonia. Initially, I chose water as the proton source, but the lithium wouldn’t be fully recycled unless we evaporate all the water (takes a ton of energy). In addition, lithium hydroxide has a melting point of 462°C (from the wiki), which costs even more energy.
Impressive
Would be interested to understand the lithium implications for this method as battery technology tried to move away from lithium ion due to cost/scarity
how much energy are using to make it, what is a gain or loss? -eg 1unit energy to get 1 unit of energy
As a country that occupies a continent with a population smaller than some cities, we certainly do punch above our weight in scientific developments.
NH3 certainly offers a great many advantages over so many other forms of energy storage. I really hope these researchers are on to something.
Another great substitute for ammonia is plasma activated water (PAW). PAW is simply created by electrocuting water in a way that h2o reacts with the nitrogen in air to ctreate nitrate (no3) and also creates h2o2 (hydrogen peroxide) which is an organic pesticide. This is potentially alot cheaper and much more decentralised way of creating fertilizer and pesticide. And unlike ammonia nitrate doesn't acidify soil.
Curious about the efficiency of these new ammonia creation processes. If they were to be used as a vehicular hydrogen energy storage medium what's the percentage of energy in vs energy out. I guess the fact that it would have to go through a fuel cell rules out any chance of passenger vehicles. Still, nice to see a distributed and potentially green way to generate fertiliser.
nice lamp
in South africa there is a proposed site eto this being planed by HIVE Energy in Port Elizabeth