Audio Networking | AVB, Dante, RedNet... What Do They All Mean?!
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- čas přidán 31. 03. 2021
- This video was suggested by a member of our Discord group. What IS audio networking? What are the different protocols? What do they offer? Find out in today's video.
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Dante also provides video support (DANTE AV), and thanks to AES 67 support, interoperates with other major standards like Ravenna.
I once laid a massive cable in someone’s studio... fortunately, this was back in the 1980s, so there was some bog-paper to hand, hanging from the NS10 tweeters.
I think this may be your best comment yet 😂
😂 Brilliant!
Thank you for this concise and excellent overview! I've been wondering about these terms that I see all the time now.
For a few years before lockdown I picked up a RME MADIface Pro which I used while touring with artists to send stems to monitors and front of house. In the studio I plan to add a ferrofish converter to add more line inputs for my hardware samplers. As someone who likes to travel light, being able to connect via Madi is useful and I’ve also used the Dante Virtual Soundcard. To be able to send a receive multiple channels over cat5/6 or MADI is a joy
that CAT6 wasnt shielded! xD
First non "1 minute" tip video in a month, and I'm late.
To take matters worse, I have no idea what this video is talking about
But James wore his cool Whistler hoodie, so that's a like from me.
👍
Thank you, I was reminded about your channel after watching George's vlog. I've been looking around a uni that uses Dante and Rednet. This was really helpful.
Nice video! I use ADAT lightpipe to connect two MOTU rack mount interface, then it's Firewire to my ancient 2009 iMac!
Thanks for this video!
Great video! Really liking your channel guys!
love the shirt
I think one of the greatest things about digital multicores is reliability. Sure, MC lottery was fun, hoping for every channel to work and not buzz/hum/crackle/POW/other grounding weirdnesses... „It was fine during soundcheck“ :)
I believe the future will be AVB Milan for closed Lan setups, and Ravenna/AES67 for large Wan broadcast setups. Checkout what DirectOut is doing with the Ravenna protocol over standard ethernet connection. Your jaw will drop.
I remember Yamaha's mLAN system, carrying word clock, midi and audio channels over Firewire. So quite different but it was a way to throw multiple channels from a Motif into a Mac, and cards were available for some of their mixers.
Yes, I remember our discussion about AVB. I am still waiting for the back ordered Presonus StudioLive mixers to become available...My new studio build has been on hold the last few weeks, but I should be resuming the build soon...Be well from the US...
Nice explanation/introduction to the different formats. As an example, I have put AVB to use in my studio by adding additional AVB interfaces when I have needed additional inputs. It lets me expand without having to replace old AVB gear. Just add a new bank of inputs, connect it to the AVB network and set my audio routing as needed. Super simple!
Just wondering for AVB users, is there any reason you chose AVB over dante?
@@sjiwo - In my case, for a small home studio, the total cost of ownership is way lower with AVB. The MOTU gear is not cheap but not crazy high, the hubs were (at the time) much less expensive. I haven't priced anything in a while though. Plus it works natively with the macs we have.
What AoIP interfaces have that sets others apart is routing matrix essentially a digital patch bay. Both MOTU AVB and Focusrites Dante networked interfaces allows you to do all the patching and routing internally with software without the need of a hardware patch bay and messy cables. That's one of the reasons why I bought the MOTU 828ES because I don't have to worry about using a patch bay with my analog outboard gear. It's so much cleaner. David Gnozzi switched to the AVB stuff because of that as well.
Thank you so much.
Really hope that Audinate will standardize the remote control protocol of Dante in the future, so all models of stageboxes from different brands use the same set of code for gain/48v/phasing control and therefore become totally cross-compatible
Love the new intro :))
Thankfully a channel that didn’t have an April fools joke video!
Just kidding! Audio networks don’t exist!
@@PresentDayProduction they don’t at my budget point that’s for certain ! ;)
@@doctorscoot waves soundgrid has a free option called soundgrid connect. i use it to network 3 computers together into 1 usb interface
@@reverendcarter i have no need for such interfaces really! ;)
Guys just so you know. MADI can work at 32bit 384kHz. I do it all the time . Sounds great .
I'm running AVB from my synth rack to my main desk. It works a treat.
Just out of curiosity for those using AVB, is there any reason you would use AVB over Dante?
@@sjiwo Any reason I would? Because that's what my gear supports. Or do you mean the general "you"?
They are similar in what they do, but very different in how they do it. I like having it at L2 (ethernet) rather than at L3 (IP); I like that it is an open standard rather than a proprietary protocol. I like that support for it is built-in to my computers (Macs) without the need for any additional software, and no licenses to buy. Yes, AVB costs more for the switches, but not needing to keep software up-to-date is a win in my book.
We are already seeing protocol-bridges being made, I don't think this is a VHS/BETAMAX situation. If you need to switch, you can bridge the two together. The rumor for ages has been that Dante will slowly convert to AVB. I don't see it happening, but maybe.
I’ve seen expensive converters for Dante- does AVB need any type of conversion? I’m a Mac user and adding Cat6 in my walls of home studio but I still don’t have my head wrapped around the difference between:
1) AVB
2) Dante
3) UltraNET (Behringer, which seems. Imports if I buy a X16/32 and use as a console with my Apogee Element.
Thanks, I have never understood about this, I do now and something I don’t need in my small home set up. 😃
Glad to help!
I would never want to go back to a snake or in wall sockets for each mic. AVB is awesome, and Presonus and Motu work very well together.
They do? Is that new? I use a MOTU interface via Thunderbolt and was hoping to pipe the output of a Presonus desk into the interface via AVB. When I did some research, it looked like the two flavors of AVB weren't entirely compatible. How do you have your system set up? If this has changed it would be a-MA-zing.
@@captainbleep I run a network cable from the studio live 16 to my motu. I setup the avb input and away it goes, and vice versa. I even have a feed from my apollo over adat that I can monitor back through avb on the motu web mixer back to the studio live 16
It just takes the time to setup.
The biggest advantage of *AoIP* at least with the MOTU AVB and Focusrite Dante interfaces is Routing Matrix. They have a virtual patch bay system built into them as you can do all the patching and routing of your analog outboard gear virtually with the control software, eliminating the need of a hardware patch bay and messy cables.
I use Metric Halo ULN series with 3d cards which have ethernet connections. I can link many many boxes to function as one, and connect computers at multiple points in the chain. Very handy. I still have my old uln2 from 15 years ago that i upgraded with the latest digital cards. Now supporting up to 5 adat in (and 5 out) along with ethernet and very nice dsp capabilities :) good to go for another 15 years. They also sell repair and parts if it breaks. No problem. Best investment in my life. I have friends that are on their 3rd presonus interface in that time....
Why anyone would ever want to use anything else is beyond me. Truely. (No not getting paid for this. Just my very honest opinion. Best interface money can buy!!)
Another great system is Riedels RockNet unfortunately discontinued in aid of their newer products. The preamps sound very good, it is very flexible in terms of having any combination of analog or digital in s and out s or converters into different worlds. And last but by no means least unlike any other protocol the gain sharing between desks is a no brainer no setting up is needed it just works.
Great channel, great presenters. Have the Presonus StudioLive 24 III myself. Not had to use the AVB as only really track vocals & use it mainly as a brilliant control surface for Logic (well.. until Big Sur landed - Doh!)
Thanks for your comment :) glad you enjoy our channel!
I like the way you guys cut through the bull - keep it up.
Mark, and other Adatophobes, would have a conniption if the saw my home studio setup. I use a Frontier Apache ADAT matrix router to bounce audio around my hybrid vst/hardware system, along with a pair of Presonus Firestudio Lightpipes, a TC Konnekt 48, a Presonus 24ch firewire mixer, four Digimaxes, and four somewhat less high falutin' ADAT pres.
I'm not a Luddite, but I've looked at AVB and Dante systems and, while I love the nano-latency and cable optimisation aspects, I couldn't recreate what I'm doing with the Apache's 12 ADAT I/Os and routing options, and a bunch of semi-normalled patchbays, without spending a vast amount of valuable beer tokens, and disrupting the flow of spice for a couple of months.
Yasss Whistler!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the iconnectivity stuff does network audio. I know for sure it does network midi, but those products are incredible for live performance!
Would love you guys to cover more live sound stuff!
We can look into doing this!
Still combination FW network, mounted on Dante, does the work for 64 channels I/O which is more than enough. I still use my 3 Motu 828mkIII FW connected together trough ADAT, and a M-Audio Profire 2626. I know you don't like FW very much, but it does it's work for many years. And I still can repair these things, the smaller SMD parts are problematic with my old dog eyes.
Nice shirt
Thank you 😎
Great video! What are the latency comparisons between the different digital networks? Particularly Rednet and AVB which might be used as headphones sends in a studio setting?
Both are pretty much negligible - usually under 1ms as a standard. Any other latency factors will depend on which kit you’re using.
@@PresentDayProduction awesome thanks. So if we go out of our DAW and back into a new interface as we convert to AVB then we could accidentally add a few milliseconds of latency to the headphones depending on the gear we choose?
School is in session. Saturate my sponge please (That sounds wrong, I know! haha)
Another point worth mentioning is that the Presonus AVB format maxes out at 24/48. So if you need 32/96 or higher then I don’t think you can go with AVB. (Can anyone confirm this?)
I have looked briefly at Dante. Is it correct to say that you may get network issues if you have multiple Dangte units using the same network switch? And that it can not become issues if you only use one unit straight into another say like 1 Dante interface straight into 1 computer and a Daw?
Speaking of networking...could you make a video on Vienna Ensemble and a plugin server system for running orchestral libraries on a local network? ...
Thanks...
I have a presonus 32s, and thinking about adding Focusrite RED Dante converters on the network inputs. Is it as simple as Focusrite Dante primary out to Presonus Dante-AVB bridge to StudioLive AVB port?
What about Ravenna protocol?
The moment our Presonus mixer was connected to a MacBookPro using AVB, the blasted mixer started randomly transmitting loud pops out of its analog outputs. Not trustworthy. Never had that problem with Dante gear.
Speaking about Dante channel count (64x64, 1024x1024 etc) i always confused about sample rate no one mentioned for some reason. Thanks
we're thinking about getting the presonus stagebox since it's avb and mac sees is as an interface, my question is: will the preamps have to be controlled with the app or they'll show up in logic? kinda like certain apollo interfaces do
I believe you can control it from Logic with a little setting up, however if we have ever had to use the computer for control, we’ve always used the PreSonus UC App because it’s just better
@@PresentDayProduction nice, thanks for the reply!
You should be able to set the Presonus mic pres using the UC Universal Control app along side Logic. So you can do it all right from the computer.
MADI works up to 192kHz with 24 bits at RME Audio.
You recommend analog for small studios? This means unnecessary conversion must take place?
...and shows a CAT(x) in the end... :)
Did you guys watch Glenn Fricke's video on CAT5?
I think MacOS has stopped natively supporting AVB around the release on the M1 processors :(
Awesome video!
I’m just doing a bit of research in the future of Audio and video networking space and had a question. If Dante is superior than AVB is there any reason people would use AVB over Dante?
It’s all just dependent on use case - really there’s gonna be minimal issue no matter what system you use. It also depends on which brand of kit you’re working with. As mentioned in the video, if you go with certain manufacturers such as Midas, you’re tied in with Dante. For MOTU, you’re tied to AVB. It just depends on what you need.
@@PresentDayProduction There's some interfacing boxes, such as the Klark Technik AES50 to Dante converter. Midas just recently moved towards Dante btw, they used to be exclusively on AES50, which was kinda annoying as it offered nothing similar to DVS, which is a Godsend when doing residencies with live acts. The "old" Pro range had no Dante capability whatsoever.
"The" company that used Dante from the get go is Yamaha, as far as live sound is concerned.
And yeah, I definitely wouldn't go back to multicore looms. Cheaper, lighter, WAY more readily available, and you get redundancy. And remote wireless monitoring from your desk. And easy multing/splitting. Been in Dante world for the last ten years, analog was cool but I definitely wouldn't go back.
No mention of Soundgrid?
4:39 is that a cheese grater?
Yes!
Will this be replaced by NDI? From newtek
Is Merging Technologies AOIP based Horus, Anubis and HAPI a similar option ?
Yes, we actually work with Emerging UK quite a lot, we reviewed the PSI monitors they distribute in the UK. Their kit is cool, and we’re looking at getting our hands on the Merging hardware really soon!
@@PresentDayProduction Can’t wait to get my hand on the Merging+Anubis too.
I run a Dante system in my home studio. Three Focusrite Rednet boxes (Rednet 4, X2P, and AM2), an Eventide H9000 with Dante card, a Lexicon PCM-92 (via Audinate AES/EBU Dante adapter), Fractal Audio Axe FX3 (via Audinate AES/EBU Dante adapter), and another Audinate 1 channel audio output adapter which goes to the mic input of a Novation MiniNova (for Vocoder duties with any mic in the studio). Network switch is a Cisco SG350-10p, and the whole system works flawlessly. I normally run 64 sample buffer (32 sample works fine as well) in Cubase on a Windows PC with a Focusrite Rednet PCIe card, providing 2ms latency input, or 4ms round trip @ 48k (3ms round trip @ 96k). The system is stable, clocking is automatic, and adding new equipment is as simple as plugging in to the router and setting channels in the Dante Controller software. I also use Dante Virtual Soundcard to route computer audio into and out of the DAW. This is the best setup I have ever encountered....and works perfectly fine for a project studio...has no noticeable latency, and sounds amazing....so the protocol is not just limited to bigger installations or live work. I see no reason to return to analog patchbays / cabling.
Sooo, avb or Dante then? Are there any measurable differences between Dante and avb?
That’s a good idea for another video. We have access to all the kit we’d need for that.
The only issue is, most mixing desks or interfaces only support one protocol or the other, you can’t do both. So the inherent differences of using two different mixing desks would become apparent
Presonus offers a 16x16 AVB-Dante bridge. So, why not both?
I have done many stadium shows in my career, but thousends of audio signals.....not really😉
It was more to emphasise the scalability ;)
I will never understand why Focusrite decided to cripple all their otherwise-superb computer interfaces with 32-channel Dante. I was prepared to spend whatever they asked for a multi-format Thunderbolt and HDX interface until I saw that every last one of them had 32-channel Dante. Note that all of these Red interfaces are 64-channel devices, pointlessly limited in the Dante world to 32 channels. WHY?!?
Umm. You can connect more than one together. I have the MOTU AVB interfaces which is similar to Focusrites dante interfaces I can connect as many AVB interfaces I want on the network. There's virtually no limit. Both the MOTU AVB and Focusrite RedNet stuff is used in large scale Veune deployments.
Classic Craig Ogden
What do you mean Dante can use any network switch but AVB can not?
I think basically it’s this: with Dante you can use your existing network gear. With AVB you would have to create a separate network for it, with special switches.
Dante is compatible with regular network switches, while AVB requires specific network gear.
Having a router with QoS is a big benefit, though, regardless of which brand it is. Otherwise it might not work properly all the time.
Experience: my non-QoS switch gets crackly on Dante, but adding in a QoS Ubiquiti router fixed it.
@@PresentDayProduction Would this mean that if you enable L3 switching on ubiquity switches it would not even have to go to the router (possibly also reducing the crackling)?
I guess less roundtrips to the router would be beneficial, but not sure if that would work with Dante. I’m thinking: if the data doesn’t even go to the router, then QoS would potentially not be needed.
Back so soon?
Never stopping! 😂
I think someone hacked your closed captioning
It's all auto-generated, what made you say that - does it not read properly? We don't actual verify its performance as it's auto-generated, so let us know if it's wrong and we can try to fix it.
@@PresentDayProduction um, yeah, it’s wrong. Completely wrong, complete gibberish. I’ve never seen the auto captions be so wrong. But whatever. Great content!
As someone who worked as an event tech before I worship this channel for embracing new technology. All of this "different flavour" or "analog never fails" (which is the understatement of the century) is so annoying. It is all preference... Ok.
Go use your distressor pair on the sum of your local school theater show like what the fuck?
Old audio professionals can't setup their home wifi but know everything about "that flavour" I swear to God.
Go get help.